 United Nations and the norm of R2P. You probably haven't heard of R2P, but Rupamati Khandkar has heard about it. As a matter of fact, she wrote a book about it. And that book is in the United Nations Library and it's in the Parliament Library in India. So it's gaining some traction. And we're going to show you the book cover right now. There it is, the norm of R2P by Dr. Rupamati Khandkar. And let me welcome you to the show, Rupamati. Hi, thank you for joining us. Aloha, Jay. And it's just amazing, simply amazing interacting with you on every occasion that I get. So it's precious to me. And thank you so much for having me on your show. Thank you, Rupamati. It's great to talk to you. It's great to talk to somebody in your situation, your position. You keep on writing these books. You can't stop. You must continue to write these books, okay? So I want to know about this book. This book is kind of close to our hearts in the sense that the R2P stands for protecting countries from genocide and atrocities and outrage and what have you. So can you tell us what R2P is? And can you tell us, you know, what the book does? Yeah. So this book got me excited like a kid because it went into the Indian, it got selected into the Indian Parliament. And so just let me give you a gist of what the book is about. It's about the responsibility to protect of the United Nations. Now this is a principle that authorizes the United Nations to protect civilians in the realm of only four areas. It's very categorically stated that it's going to be ethnic cleansing, war crime, crimes against humanity and what is that? Genocide. So these four areas only. And Jay, this principle rests on three equivalent meaning these, this principle gives equal importance to three tenets. That is that the state first primarily is responsible for protecting its citizens. Second, the international community assists every state to protect its civilians in these areas. And third pillar is that if the state does not protect its civilians and manifestly harms its citizens, the international community will come together through the United Nations to protect the civilians of that state. Now see Jay, it's a very complicated principle because you overwrite sovereignty. The basic rule of sovereignty is you respect a nation's borders. So in this principle, the international community as a whole is going to trespass into the borders of a country and protect civilians on the basis of humanity against poor crimes. Now Jay, this was a principle which was founded in 2005 and it came into force in Libya. So when you have the international community authorizing military actions, now this principle was supposed to be a last resort to use military principle means you have to go diplomatically, you have to go and have a lot of interactions and military use is the last resort. But we have in Libya that military was used but only in Libya and then after that Syria when you have the same things. Now most recently when we are seeing in Ukraine and we just have had the General Assembly. So why aren't we having this principle used again? So there's a big question mark that comes into the task of the UN. Why aren't they doing this concrete action when it is needed the most today? But now we connect back to the whole issue of the reform of the United Nations that because the veto power rests with Russia also and China also, they will not authorize this military action. So the United Nations falls short to implement military action in Ukraine because Russia is a prominent member. So this is like a catch 22 situation where we are stuck and the United Nations cannot do anything effectively. So you see Jay, genocide is on, war crimes are on, ethnic cleansing is on and war against humanity is on, crimes against humanity is on. So what do we do now? What is the resort that we adhere to? If we have NATO action there will be retaliatory Warsaw action. So we don't want that clash to happen and we have, can we call it a tyrant state? It's threatening a nuclear war directly saying that I will go for a third world war, if third nuclear war, if I'm threatened. So if he goes down, he takes everybody down with him. So we are in such a bad situation right now and see America is across the Pacific, Atlantic. So we have to understand that this is happening in Europe and Germany coming in directly, you have the oil and gas situation going on. So see when Ukraine was allowed to export wheat and keep the bread baskets of the world fulfilled, it was kind of a calm that came in and everybody thought that now we are having our bread and Ukraine is getting their money so everything will be fine. But this can't go on forever. You can't keep them in that situation for, you need to rescue them. Ukraine needs to be rescued and it needs to be rescued fast. So when Germany promises air defense and backs off and you still wait, you're still depending on Russia for oil and gas, it's such a complicated situation. You are threatening military action against Russia by Ukraine but you're expecting oil and gas from Russia. So if he threatens to stop the supply, Russia is not going to be able to go for it, isn't it? So it's a difficult situation. It's a very difficult situation. Difficult and well but I mean of course the principle is exactly correct. Exactly correct. 2005 is almost 20 years ago. So unfortunately, you know, aside from Libya it hasn't been implemented and that's really tragic and it reveals the systemic flaw, the profound flaw in the United Nations in the charter from day one. You know, it's like a great idea but impossible to implement. It's sort of like the American Constitution, great idea but you know it had slavery baked in so that wasn't so good and it leaves us a legacy of trouble. And the same thing here, we have a legacy of trouble with the United Nations. So I guess the question is you mentioned reform. How at least theoretically, you know, procedurally, how could the United Nations be reformed so it could implement this very important principle? See theoretically Jay, the world order has changed since 1945 and changed so drastically. So you have the power of the United Nations resting in five people with one veto being able to thwart four people's will power. So if you have an expansion of the veto power, expansion of the veto power means more people have the veto power and a majority wins rather than one veto being allowed to stop the decision. You can have three versus two. You can have US, Germany and France being able to continue ahead, you know. So these things are so important if you want action in the world today. Otherwise we are just going to be spectators. That's a thing that we are watching from the past seven and a half months. We are watching Ukraine being bombed. Can anybody do anything about it? You have so many meetings, so many intergovernmental meetings, so many international organizations meeting every day. You have bilateral multilaterals who is effectively helping people. Business trading, trading is going on. The replacement of the dollar with the rubble is on. The US has risen to a different level. So all these things have to be taken into account that economically it's going to hurt across the oceans. It's not going to have a conservative effect. It's going to come as a multiplier effect. And strategically how much ever you think and how much ever you want to control your action, retaliatory action, it has to be effective action. Unless this is stopped, it's going to have repercussions on the economy, which is going to affect millions and millions of people all over the world. Recession is not an easy thing. Maybe it will be easy for the middle class to absorb, but the lower classes will be pushed into homelessness without food. So this has to be stopped somewhere. If I go to the United Nations General Assembly, which is the larger group, and you see them, you talk to them, you know what they're like. My guess is that if you pose the resolution or a motion to change the Security Council to add members, to make the veto a voted veto instead of a unilateral veto, you would not be able to get a majority or necessary vote to make that change. Am I right? That resolution will be vetoed. So it's as simple as that. Any resolution to bring in more power at the Security Council is vetoed. And it has been done several times. So they don't want to share power. Who will want to share power? The king will never want to share his throne. So it's kind of like that way. It comes to very selfish needs at the United Nations. And strategically, they get countries who please them for using the veto power. So you could not change this at the General Assembly? No. No. It was just not permitted by the charter. Yes. And the charter is protected by the veto. So it's like a circle which we cannot break. And it's a vicious cycle which we cannot break. And we are stuck in it. I mean reform studies and reform demands. We have the Brazil club, the coffee club, the African club all asking for one seat. The African continent is asking for a single seat in the Security Council. Now that's permissible, but they're not being given. So where do you take us on that? Because it sounds like you can't get there from here. That is, you cannot reform the Security Council. Therefore, you cannot reform the veto. Therefore, Russia and for that matter, Russia and China. And if India gets behind it, Russia, I don't know, is India on the Security Council? No. Okay. No. Russia and China, either one of them could stop any kind of R2P action anytime. And R2P is a core point for the United Nations. I think you make that clear. So we're stuck here. We're locked. And the United Nations is unable to fulfill what I would consider its most important principle. So where do you take us on that? Do we have to create another United Nations? We have 10 members on the Security Council and India is part of the rotating members. Five membership is rotated amongst the 295 other members on a two-year basis. But these five members are formality safe. They don't have veto powers. Only the permanent five, the big five, they have the permanent power, the veto power. So these five who come, they will come, they will give speeches and they will say reform, reform, reform, and they will, the two-year-old term gets over and they go out. Now, what happens today? So many countries who have strategic interests, they please the veto-holding powers to act on their behalf. So you have Pakistan asking the US to intervene when we have a Kashmir resolution or India asking Russia to help them when we have something against us. Or Japan, you have the Southeast Asian countries asking China to help them if a resolution goes against them. And you have the African countries, but China helps and then takes the land. It's a very intertwined economic political web which these countries are indulging in. So it's difficult to break them and for them to give up veto power, all five of them will have to say yes, we allow other people to have this veto power, but that will never happen. Never is a big word. And so, I mean, I assume that you are directing this book at what is going on with Russia and Ukraine. It's the most obnoxious thing that's happened in world history in a while. And where can you take that? You examine the problems in the United Nations, in the Security Council, and we conclude with never. So offer me some optimism, Rupamati. Offer me a solution. What is the solution? Do we, you know, are we stuck forever? JC, the responsibility to protect spoke about the foremost, genius crimes, crime against humanity, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, all this is happening. Walk, everything is happening in front of our eyes. You are seeing tremendous war crimes and you have a world leader directly threatening the whole world. If you come into this, I'll go with World War III. So and you don't have the other side relenting. They also are very sternly saying, yes, they went and blew up the Kremia Bridge. So he is one of his favorite bridges. So it's like poking him when he is most angry. They should blow it up again. That's my opinion. Blow it up every day. But you know, the thing is, what's your message? You examine these things, we find out that we're in a situation which is not likely to change. But you have the war crimes and the genocide on the one hand, you have the outrageous, you know, violation of any kind of norm there. And the United Nations is essentially powerless. Okay, so we know that. But are you are you criticizing them? Are you saying, wait a minute, boys, you've got to think of something. You can't just stand by while this happens. We do have a principle here. I mean, are you saying you guys have got to find a way? Is that what you're saying? Yes, yes, for sure. For sure, Jay. See, power has made them, you know, this Frederick Neish's three stage of the camel, the lion and the child. After getting that power, when you become crazy and power, you become like a child, they're taking this to such a kidish level, they're not understanding the consequences that humanity is going to face. And that is in terms of life itself, when you see mass graves, it is not commendable to speak about principles, then you want action. And you say that, please stop this on any count, you know, just don't make speeches, take action, all the countries together coming and telling Russia, stop. No, it's not happening. See, there is a brilliant trade going on everywhere. Germany on one hand promises air defense facilities to Ukraine. On the other hand, buys Russian gas. So you have something like a balance that they're doing, you can't balance it out. You can't balance genius crimes out. You have to change your dependence and then unilaterally oppose Putin's aggression on Ukraine. You can't have a two pronged strategy on this. Everybody has to come together to support Biden. Biden has to be a strong leader. He is not a certainty. He has to come out a very, what is that? He has to have heaviness in his character when he comes on the international stage. It can't be those fleeting sentences which he gives, you know, he has to strongly say, let's unite and this will not go on further. You know, United Nations is the hegemon of the world order. You can't deny that. You have to act like you're the hegemon of the world order, the keeper of the world order. So United Nations bring it to another just intergovernmental organization and take charge as the hegemon of the world order and keep it in order. That is the role that the United Nations has, the United States has to play in this. It can't be. Do you think that Biden, if he were a stronger leader, would be able to change what's happening at the United Nations? For sure, for sure. Because see the sanctions which he was giving, they were half had sanctions. See for bread, for wheat to be exported out of Ukraine, how many meetings took place? How many facilities were made just that wheat gets supplied through a green corridor of the United Nations to countries? So that is just like just picking out wheat and letting them die. You can't do that. Russia will sell wheat through Kazakhstan, through the Central Asian provinces, but they will keep their trade going when they are selling in ruble. There has to be such a strong action that you cannot trade in ruble because trading in ruble is affecting the dollar. Dollar is affecting the US economy. Recession in the US markets go up. It affects the global markets. So such a cascading effect it's having all over. So the moment the US puts a stop to this and decides to face Russia head on, it's going to be more common. This will continue for years and years. It's like up and down. It will just keep on on on. The virus will still exist somewhere. Putin must be having so many other generals who are as eccentric as him and we can't expect Gorbachev entry to calm things down. That would be absolutely miraculous if it happens. But we have to, it's war. It's war. It's asymmetric war and he's going to play that. He is playing that. He's good at it. And so are you saying that if Biden was stronger and if Biden took greater sanctions, got Europe to take greater sanctions, he could also, he could be more forceful in the United Nations. He could cause the United Nations to take action, but that has to override the veto problem. So I could, let me ask you, could if the General Assembly wanted to take greater sanctions, could they override the veto problem in the Security Council or are they stuck? They can't do it. That is the exact problem in the United Nations that the veto power is not at all restricted by any other. It is prime and that is what makes the United Nations very facile in its action. If even one country or its allies don't want that action to be implemented, it doesn't get implemented in the United Nations. It again goes back to the drawing board and again there are letters written and let's do this. Let's do this. It reaches the Security Council vetoed again comes up. So that's what I'm telling you. America has to understand that it's the hegemon or the topmost power in this world order, take charge and go for action rather than stay back, pass fleeting remarks and then wait for something to happen because see Putin is very clear about what he wants. If he goes down, he takes everybody down with him. If he doesn't go down, this situation continues for a long, long time. So Ukraine is not going to be, see if he wanted to really, really bomb Ukraine, he could have done carpet bombing and finished off Ukraine in a matter of a few days. If you see the map, Russia is humongous and Ukraine is just a fetal in front of Russia. So if he wanted to really finish, he would have no, this is helping him. This prolonged battle is helping him win the war and we waiting and not doing anything except for causing more recession, more countries to what do you say mingle in between and hurt themselves rather than, you know, take sides. How many people have come in front and said we side Ukraine or we side Russia? Nobody. India will abstain from Russia, from supporting Russia. But can it go against Russia? No, it's a strategic partner. China will never support Ukraine because Russia is a strategic partner. In the same way, US has to come and say, no, we will support Ukraine wholeheartedly. We are coming in, NATO is coming in. Why is NATO taking so long to come? It's going to be a prolonged battle if there is no immediate action. Yeah. Okay. I got a couple of questions about that, though. I think what I hear you saying as far as the United Nations is concerned, the United Nations has a fatal flaw here. It cannot act. And so what the world requires to solve this problem is for the US, Biden step up and supplant the United Nations, do what the United Nations should have been doing. Okay. And the United Nations has marginalized itself. And the only solution is that somebody steps up and acts like the United Nations. And that means being a strong charismatic leader. It means bringing as many countries as possible together and acting as a kind of alternative United Nations. And then taking aggressive action and not worrying about Putin's threats, which I personally, about nuclear war, just doing it. Yes. But they're not doing it. He's not doing it. So what you have is a growing sense of fragmentation, a growing sense of confusion, a growing lack of resolve. And you're saying also that time works against a solution. Yes. This has to be right now. It has to be definitive. And it has to be Biden because there's nobody else. This is a problem. And it's made more complicated, don't you think, by the fact that the next time we look, we could have a Republican president who doesn't care about Ukraine, who doesn't care about the United Nations, who doesn't care about dealing with the problem at all. Nationalistic isolationist, you know, we're not closer to a solution, but way further away to a solution. And we effectively perpetuate Russia's power on this. That's what I get out of it. So where's the happiness here? Within ourselves. The jail, like I'm telling you, see, Libya, Libya, Gaddafi decided to replace the dollar with the African currency. Everybody came on to him and the R2P was to decide to be a regime changing a principle which changed the regime. Russia and the U.S. were on the same page, but now when Russia decides to change to rubble, Russia and U.S. are close to each other. So I mean, it's like, I have to tell you, it's like a bond being broken in between two animals. They're not going to bother about Ukraine. And I'm telling you why Ukraine is important for the United States is because of the recession. More economic effects. CJ anywhere in the world has a war. It benefits the United States and Russia directly. Direct monetary benefits to both these countries, correct? But the pinch that we are feeling in the United States is the recession and this Ukraine war is that exact trigger. And that's why we have to fight it. No, we have to stop it. If it continues for a longer time, I mean, it will threaten our entire society. Well, let me ask you this. Let me take the other side of it for a moment. Suppose there is a Republican president and suppose he doesn't care about Ukraine. We already see that the GOP doesn't really care about Ukraine's isolationist, nationalistic and so forth. Republican president, which I don't care. Putin can do what he wants to do. He can have what he wants to have when we can ignore the United Nations because it's not necessary. And it's not necessary for the United States to do anything about it. In that case, in that scenario, what happens to the dollar versus the ruble? What happens to the world order? That is the world order without genocide, the world order without war. What happens if the United States disappears from the whole issue? It should not disappear from the issue because what happens if it does? If it does, the expansionist policy of Russia sustains itself and it doesn't stop just on Ukraine. It will continue to Norway. It will continue to Finland. It will continue to other areas of bordering Russia. The referendums will be held, flags will be hoisted and that will be Russian territory right on the doorsteps of Western Europe will kind of disappear and we will have another Third World War, any which ways raging in Europe. So Europe is at world's end. You've seen Pirates of the Caribbean. It's that it's at the world's end right now. Russia is at its doorstep and Russia, the mentality of Russia is not going to stop because see this small spark which allowed the ruble to become strong. It gave Russia a lot of monetary budget and when you have countries which are willing to trade oil and gas in ruble, it made Russia realize the power of its own oil and its produce. And we have the Siberian entire area full of oil and gas. They can sustain themselves very well. So they are not going to bother about anything else. I told you if Russia wanted to finish the war with Ukraine, they could have carpet bombed it and finished it in a couple of months, but they are purposely it's a tactical war to prolong the war so that the enemy stagnates and finishes off, withers off. Once they wither off, the ones that become weak, Russia can sustain itself. Ukraine can't. So that is the kind of policy that he is playing and when US support is withdrawn, Europe becomes weaker. You see, Europe depends a lot on the United States. The entire world depends on the United States if it has to be against Russia. If the United States decides to stay neutral, we have, what is that? There's no control on this fascist chaos. And so we have expansionist policies going over the head. So he will be uncontrolled. So this is pretty scary. Is this the message that you want people to take from your book about R2P? What message would you like to leave them with? The responsibility to protect is where the international community came together as a whole to protect civilians against its own government. But we have a government which has come from outside. So there is invasion going on in the modern world. So I think it is time for a modified version of the R2P and the international community to come together as a whole and stop the expansionist war. There's actual war going on without any, there's no, you can't rein in. He is deciding one thing after another every day. When you see him parading a nuclear submarine on the roads, it is scary. You saw the whale. It's dubbed as the whale on the streets of Kremlin, a 300 ton nuclear submarine being paraded on the streets. You understand the torpedo that this man can bring in if he intends or if he sets his mind to it. So we have to understand we don't face a tyrant with no power. We face a tyrant with fire power, willpower and partners. So it's not an easy task to really mean. We have to understand that international community needs to act together and the United Nations fails as an organization. If we have finished the General Assembly of two weeks and not done anything concrete, has there been a diplomatic mission, leave alone military action? Has there been a diplomatic mission of all the countries going to Russia and talking to Mr Putin? There has been no, there has not been. So even when there's no diplomatic resolution or even attempt to diplomatically resolve this, what can you do? You can't heckle Russian members when they come in the General Assembly with booze and say that they will solve the problem. There's been no diplomatic mission gone to the Russian embassy or even to Russia. We have to get your book at. We should send your book to Vladimir Putin. Okay, all right. We should send your book to Joe Biden. We should send your book to Mr Modi in India for supporting Russia. We should send your book to Xi Jinping. Your book has to get out so that people can see where we are. And I gather in an inflection point, which is in effect a scenario for World War III. And that's really what it's about. Either you have R2P or you have a state of constant and increasing war. One or the other. Yes. Well, it's been nice knowing you, Rupamati. We'll always say that even there's never going to be a disconnect. Definitely. I agree. Dr. Rupamati Khandikar, helping us understand the geopolitical maneuvers and the role of the United Nations and what the role of the United States must be in order to step in and take some action. Action is the operative word. Thank you so much, Rupamati. It's always great to talk to you. Thank you so much. Always a pleasure. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at ThinkTechHawaii.com. Mahalo.