 Good morning. I'm Alberto Bejo, editorial director of the expansion group in Mexico and we are going to have a panel on one of the topics that has been addressed in almost all sessions, that is to fight against corruption. From a point of view that we want to make it a little different, what can we do to fight corruption? We are all aware of the cost of corruption and according to the World Economic Forum, corruption accounts for five percent of global GDP. We are talking of about approximately three billion dollars, out of which one third are bright payments and we all know that this issue of corruption makes doing business more expensive. Corruption makes the cost of infrastructure and public services more expensive. It's an added cost. Corruption multiplies inequality and the ones that suffer most from this are the poor. Inequality is one of the most severe problems in Latin America and corruption only makes this problem worse. So what can we do with corruption? The World Economic Forum and its partnering against corruption initiative. Last year in 2016 we did several things in Mexico as to infrastructure as we all know that is one of the big issues that have called for bits for public works and we touched on several very important topics that go from individual leadership, how they're a responsible leader can make things change. We talked about technology too and how the open source data and greater transparency can help in fighting corruption. We also talked about youth education and the cultural change is a very relevant factor to fight against corruption. But that is not enough. What else can we do? That is what we'd like to know. With us here we have multi country panel. Everomar Betanzos is under secretary of the public function in Mexico. That's the office in charge of fighting against corruption nowadays. Mexico has a national anti-corruption system adopted last year which will bring about deep changes in the structure and it has been most welcome by those who have been seeking a better system to combat corruption in Mexico. With us too is Daniel Saboto, representative of IDEA which is the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance. He's headquartered in Stockholm. It's been a key organization in promoting democracy as from the 1980s. And with us too is Alejandro Guerrero who's the corporate country manager and CEO of MSMC and CEO for Argentina and Uruguay too representing the private sector companies and Juan Carlos Botero who is the executive director of the World Justice Project in the USA. He's a Colombian but this is an organization that works on promoting the rule of law. My first question is very simple. Based on recent success what would you need for the next steps in fighting against corruption? Based on recent success. I think the first important matter is to look very carefully at the statement that corruption is a cultural problem and I think we need to look at this very carefully because what I think is cultural is really rejection of corruption and along those lines having said that I think the efforts at the Mexican level for instance with the implementation of the national anti corruption system there will be a period during which early results will be seen and obviously there are expectations in citizenship around this and the point has to be made that we need to see some early outcomes. So the next steps we'll see will be about reaping the results of the first efforts made. You know successful public policies implemented in different nations including the adoption of policies such as these that are at least visible and we need to see if they can be tailored to the needs of each country as well. Another thing that I believe is also important is to establish greater cooperation mechanisms between the private sector and civil society in the development of these public policies that are applied across the board and as part of those policies what we have seen in Brazil for instance something that is very successful and fills us with envy in terms of the fight against corruption we see that there's an independent prosecutor's office in Mexico that trying to get just out do you think that is a key point it is certainly a very important component the prosecution by an office of the prosecutor is very important so that this is not dependent on a body that determines whether criminal proceedings will be undertaken or not having a specific anti-corruption prosecutor's office certainly boosts the process but you also need to consider the profile of the person chosen as the anti-corruption prosecutor who needs to be in a position that conveys trust and so that the person can be seen just as what they are an anti-corruption prosecutor who have a very important role within a judiciary that should be independent like every judiciary of course in order to work on the cases transferred by the office now the profile is so difficult that in Mexico the system will begin without the prosecutor yet in place Daniel what do you think based on the recent success stories could be done to further persecute corruption first I would like to be politically incorrect and let me point out that in spite of the fact that corruption has been the most recurrent topic on all panels I have taken part in considering its true importance despite that we see a room that is almost empty this is a bit like priests or ministers who tell off the very few who go to church I'm not telling anyone off of course but there's a matter relating to lack of a coherence in less America we are unfortunately not consistent we have great rhetoric and discourse against corruption but when it comes to Sunday mass we only see a few churchgoers sitting down and listening to the message and the message is not a minor one if this had started 20 or 30 years ago this might sound silly but right now considering the current state of affairs in Latin America with the ghosts of odor break hovering over each and every one of our countries considering all of that to have only 40 people talking about corruption I think is serious I hope the media also reflects this because these are the awkward uncomfortable topics now corruption is no new topic but it is suddenly going through a different phase because society has changed in Latin America and this is something we discussed yesterday we have a much more prominent middle class which has a different agenda demanding better public services but also the agenda in terms of citizen demands requires more transparency more accountability and more effective fight against corruption so this moment is written with scandals but we shouldn't just be trapped in scandals what people remember is obviously the scandals we should go back to what Lenin asked in 1902 or 1903 what do we do now how do we go from scandal to action how we how do we assume a commitment to really tackle the matter and my vantage point is linkage between the financing of political parties which is often the trigger of many corruption scandals when you look at men's a law in Brazil or now the lavajato when you see the situation in Chile which also affected president virtually there was no financing involved there but still when you look at the issues in Argentina in Honduras or in Guatemala these are all scandals that have to do with the linkages between political financing and corruption and I don't want to monopolize the discussion so secondly I would like to specify what we can do concretely to have firewalls to deal with the relationship within with between political financing and corruption and to see how we can work among the public sector the private sector as part of a public private partnership so that the private sector and the world of politics can work together with the support of society to clean the world of politics of corruption it's no minor issue if we look at the results of Latino barometer which you referred to support for democracy in Latin America in 2016 was 54 down from 60% but in Brazil we see a fall in 22 percentage points in satisfaction with democracy because of these scandals and the linkages between high-profile politicians and these candles Alejandro we are talking about initiatives that statutory we're talking about having independent prosecutors we are talking about looking at the matter of party financing what can private companies do you as a private company working in Argentina Uruguay what can you do in the face of corruption I think there's a lot to be done and essentially something that Daniel mentioned regarding public private participation in these matters not just for infrastructure projects we need to start working and to demand certain things let me start by saying that corruption is always a personal decision someone who decides to use their influence to get something and someone who decides to pay to get what they need international companies have rules and there are also laws that govern us since we are an American law we have the anti-corruption law and we have compliance as well one of the issues we deal with I have worked always in Argentina although I was born in the US but there's a lack of awareness as to what corruption actually is for such a long time we have considered corruption to be endemic so much so that we have stopped to stop thinking about what corruption actually is and when we run our courses our training courses and compliance we come across people who look strangely at some practices which are related to the FCPA and appear in our compliance manuals and they think that is impossible to imply with and that's a lie that needs to be done away with I as Daniel said I wish I had been a lot more politicians and business people here because the problem is not wanting to discuss these matters just thinking this is endemic and the most serious problem we see is the lack of exposure we need to always consider even when we talk about corruption between or among companies not just between politicians and companies you know oligopolies for instance or price collusion or to handle certain contracts it's a an issue related to values and to education we have lost this effect of public shame naming and shaming and the prestige of companies is fundamental when you say this is a company that has had corruption problems or that it wasn't able to do business because it didn't accept corruption it's diametrically opposed as a business person you know recently we had a tax regularization scheme in Argentina tax regularization is not good news it's bad news because means there was a hundred fifteen billion dollars hidden by people who at the very least violated tax laws and of course those who were able to regularize did so which is good from a financial point of view for the government but it's bad news in terms of knowing that we have so many people so many businesses with so much money abroad and this has got to do with moral judgments that have to do with the companies themselves with prosecutors but it's not enough for there to be prosecutors if public opinion itself does not clearly condemn and reject these things and if the courts don't condemn those who are responsible we won't be able to change anything yes many companies that are listed on the stock exchange depend on the quarterly figures and obviously it's up to them to say no to a certain deal in the name of principles now what you just mentioned about the leadership role of the company to say no that's one of the key points defended by the World Economic Forum responsible leadership now do you think it's cultural do you think looking at the long-term can we really trust in that responsible leadership and education or will that not be enough about a thank you my perspective reflects the organization I work for the Wall Street project and what we have done in recent years is to measure rule of law indicators and of course corruption is a key dimension we have interviewed thousands of people around the world and although I agree with what Alejandro said about this being ultimately a personal decision as to paying or receiving in a way it's like a disease you know a patient may have a heart attack and a doctor in this case a judge court may come along and treat the specific patient in Latin America I think we need to do three things first we need to change the way we look at the problem we need to no longer look at it as specific individual cases is that politicians are corrupt or that certain individuals are corrupt we need to look at this at the more general level in terms of the population by this I mean not by what made ex-Columbian president to buy famous he once said that we need to reduce corruption to its just or fair proportions no obviously not that's not the idea rather in terms of public health you know we need to look at corruption at the population level by attacking the system that provides specific incentives that lead certain market players to act in a certain way I hope I'm making myself clear and when the system as a whole obviously this is a number of trade-offs when there is an independent prosecutor's office and when there's freedom of the press and it is respected when there are mechanisms for financing political campaigns when there are independent autonomous control mechanisms that span not only the public sector but also the private sector which is also part of the process you know including from the person who gives a tip to a policeman to all the way up to a company like order break so when all of these mechanisms are in place the players incentives are lower there there is a disincentive for corruption and there is no silver bullet but we need to keep finding the way to approaches in Japan they have an independent agency but not in Sweden which does not mean that it's either one system or the other it's a balance of different elements another one is technology in investigation procedures or also processes related to empowering civil society so that through agile and effective reporting mechanisms we may help control the situation and the third point I'd like to make has to do with the need to recognize progress and this is one thing I see in the measuring of corruption indicators when there are corruption scandals the perception of corruption increases so it looks as if we're more corrupt when in fact it's the opposite precisely those corruption scandals show that there has been an independent authority that brought them out to light so identifying and publicizing success stories is important and this happened in Palenke in Chiapas and there was a hospital and the population had no access to health care you know the doctor used to go to this health care center twice a week a training program was run in that town regarding access to information systems which is key to fight corruption after that training the community on its own initiative had access to the hospital's budget and with the hospital's budget of the health center they were able to find the money for the doctor and they they went to the head they said hey this doctor gets paid for five days a week but he comes only twice a week so he was fired this is a small case but it goes to show that the reforms undertaken in Latin America in the last 20 to 30 years have had some effect and that should not be disregarded we need to keep up the good fight so Transparency reforms reforms on access to information on dependence of the judiciary obviously the situation when Israel is very different from Colombia Costa Rica Uruguay or Chile Alejandro I'd like to go back to your point you as a businessman in Latin America or as an executive in Latin America have you ever had to say no have you ever had to reject a contract used to some improper request how do you deal with that situation very often many times many times I would be very candid in recent years many times both here and in other countries you see this is a subtle model corruption is about suddenly I have a friend a contact but we've had what I would call violent cases we've got public we've been awarded public tenders which the day after having been awarded the tenders that was withdrawn and the tender was awarded to someone else partly because we were exactly what these people didn't want even though we had won the tender the thing is how much freedom you then have to actually expose the matter and here the question is about our business the business of any company because if it depends on corruption in order to function then you have a business that is corrupt per see if you want to have a business but in order to make it profitable you need to evade tax then your business is tax evasion don't call yourself a builder a broker or a businessman if you need to actually defraud the tax authority in order to do business so my business is crime after all I mean you know if as a company I need to depend on corruption on bribing someone because when we talk talk about corruption I don't think anyone really corrupts anyone it's the model itself that is corrupt and it's not that you are dealing with a minor you know corrupting a minor we're talking about adults obviously and this is a very important matter nowadays because politics will then sort of target business people and say well after all they're the ones who paid and this has been the case in in some proceedings we have seen recently so we shouldn't forget those who received the payment hmm so the point here is if your business needs to be founded on that you're just as guilty so it's better just not to do business and you need to say no if the sufficient number of businesses were to say no this would not happen but in order to be able to say no I think you knew what from color said there's the issue of incentives you need to align incentives what often happens is that you say no but then you can't expose the matter you can't announce it I think that's a case I know a company perhaps one of its representatives is here it's a Mexican infrastructure projects company that left infrastructure and moved into housing because they didn't want to get into that market in which there was an issue of financing of parties yes recently Eduardo Elstein the businessman gave an interview and he said one shouldn't work for the government for politics so Daniel on incentives I agree when you look at literature on corruption like what Rosie Ackerman wrote you need to limit opportunities and incentives to pay or receive bribes the thing is how do you align the incentives now I think the first point here is this in Latin America we have a society that until recently and in some cases still has this big motto they steal but they do things they get things done which created a fully perverse incentive I think we need to change that notion that they're dishonest but still they do things I mean if they steal whoever they are we must remember a quality before the law regardless of who they are president minister or whoever they need to go to prison we need to bring impunity to an end that is what leads to a high degree of cynicism and skepticism the second point in my opinion as transparency international says we need to target big corruption the example of the doctor is interesting and you need to work on that but I'm particularly interested in situations where they're basically stealing everything from the country itself when there are powerful people who are untouchable when there are policy reforms in terms of corruption scandals that are really just cosmetic in that you're showing or trying to show that you're doing things but the action is actually toothless the measures are toothless because with the economic slowdown we've seen and the fact that seven million latin americas who were lifted out of poverty in the seventies have fallen back into poverty now in many countries we are generating a breeding ground and we need to have consensus that corruption should never be repeated there should be a never again for corruption we have four big consensus one is democracy another one is never again human rights violations another one is consensus on discipline management of macro economy including inflation fiscal deficit and so on and in recent years consensus was reached that it was not just about macro economy but we needed policies based on poverty reduction and fighting inequality in my opinion the fifth big consensus in the region is an agreement that there should be no more tolerance of impunity and by this I mean big corruption regardless of who is corrupt in this privileged based society you can see a group that is engaged in high corruption and is untouchable so you won't be able to leave this only through the business channel or through the political channel you need to work together to have a public private partnership to strengthen what Alejandro said to strengthen not only physical infrastructure but also institutional infrastructure and here I think you need to advance on forefronts you need to continue improving the regulatory frameworks and as Juan Carlos said much of the progress we see on anti-corruption now is based on reforms in the last 20 years access to information and others procurement laws much of the corruption component has to do with tax evasion and infrastructure programs we need institutional strengthening political leadership business and political leadership ladders or stairs you sweep from the top to the bottom so leadership is very important and obviously there has to be social commitment you can't ask society to preach by example it's the leaders who need to preach by example so you know leaders can't say that corruption is in society or business people can't say well I can't compete with all the without all these deals now the challenge when it comes to the financing of political parties is fundamental let me give you the example of Brazil which we haven't got here in Brazil there is a political structure that induces or motivates corruption they have an election system that leads to 28 political parties sitting in congress there are nearly more parties political parties in brazil than the number of people we have in the room which shows how difficult it is to govern so to make this governable you need to build a coalition because no party has more than 13 percent of all of congress we have to bring together eight or nine political parties to provide this possibility of governance so how did they do that by paying that's why the men's allowance and then the crisis of the Lava Chateau that is why Brazil ended up with 35 ministries because they had to share budget and money to make it governable if Brazil doesn't change that political system sooner or later it'll end up in the same situation so it's a system to we not only have to work at individual level but on systemic reforms including financing if campaigns are more costly and it's more expensive to do politics unless we have a big bag of public financing and even in Mexico with 90 percent of public financing they haven't stopped corruption at least let's have all funding be be public or else politicians will need money when politicians need money they go to business persons of course the business person provides the money but wants a return on that and then the lobby lobby laws influence peddling and people that go in and out of jail I agree with Juan Carlos that there are no silver bullets but some there are times they are similar bullets now the what was included in the Brazilian code in 1990 reinforced in 2013 has allowed the prosecutor's office and the courts to negotiate with other bridge and other business persons to try and really reach from down below to well up top to fight corruption now investigation please together with the prosecutor's office have been two essential elements in Brazil and when politics wanted to overnight disassemble or what morons are not had pushed forward the public opinion in the streets that you dare do that to the politicians and that's an essential highlight that is the people together with a mass media so we have to work strategically systemically to move forward along the different fronts ever your role is a federal one so you may not have to answer some of the difficult parts of the question Mexico has an anti-corruption law they've been working on it for a long time they have a transparency and an anti-corruption law and Mexico has changed local accounting laws so as to be able to check the states and municipalities and Mexico has three governors the last summer escaped and now being looked for people or persons that have diverted funds for billions of dollars one has a bank others has many properties and they are fugitives right now we've talked about many different elements but what's happening in Mexico despite all this work on corruption why hasn't Mexico been able to detain anyone the first important matter to be highlighted here is that the never again against corruption is more present than ever in Mexican society that never again against corruption not only addresses paradigmatic cases very unfortunate ones in which the courts have discovered things that society was talking about on a daily basis and that have led to prosecution these cases are being clarified for defending public interest and in turn there's an interest in society so that these paradigmatic cases really be addressed by the system Mexico is very good at creating systems and institutions their institutions are sound their laws are praised but until there are cases that are indeed punished and that there be a mechanism that shows that the cases are not only being publicized but also punished the there will be legitimacy by society but there wouldn't be a full solution and the different persons involved in the national transparency system and the anti-corruption system all the people involved know that there's such a big social expectation that the need to have effective results in the short term underscore the relevance of being not only effective in what they do but also that those persons that find a negative incentive in non-punishment or impunity don't find that because now these persons are being criminally prosecuted there is prima facie evidence that they are have been involved in acts that must be investigated and there's a positive incentive from society to file the claims but we are at a very delicate stage now because if we don't meet the expectations of justice really acting society itself will not believe us any longer whether reforms have been sufficient or we have such a sound system to be implemented but if we do not have cases that show us that things have really been done Mexican society will say what else can we establish if our appeal to bring about constitutional reforms have been heard but there's been no resolutions in justice at the same time as a society we work on an essential point which is consistency it's not only a matter of having big cases present among the public at large but also a matter of corruption that is not considered a major issue with a traffic agent where the society minimizes this kind of events so we must be consistent thus the difficulty as to the expectations within society allow me because I think one has to be candid as to one's thoughts in South Korea a few weeks ago there was a serious conflict of interest that was established between the president in office an advisor that has no official had no official position but a great influence and the owner not an official the owner the CEO of Samsung we're talking about the president of the country individual that with great influence on the president and the owner of Samsung all three are in jail and the president has been removed from her position so how can we go out and tell society that we will arrest this gentleman that works in the public administration and charged you 80 pesos to put your file ahead of others when mass scandals of suspicion of corruption at the highest levels govern as prosecutors ministers and presidents remain in the shadows so we have to commit ourselves I think the brazil's example shows us the commitment of the courts the prosecutors and the police to really thoroughly investigate cases because corruption is an endemic problem delving deep into that entails that there's no no one that is out of that problem there are six ministers of the current administration that are being prosecuted the president the former speaker of the house the president of the senate many entrepreneurs and business persons marcelo oliverich has been sentenced to 19 and a half years in jail and I wonder how many of our countries can really thoroughly look into this kind of situation that is what we must copy or emulate yesterday in a panel I was very concerned because somebody has said we have to clean the house out but we must be very prudent because in this fight against corruption we may generate high waves not allowing investment to come and leading to political instability so once again we are setting a fence around the privilege saying we are going to combat corruption outside but not in here because if we put business persons into jail that would not be good but if one it's the other way around if one changes incentives the rule of law particularly because if we don't have courts that put an end to impunity we will be carrying out exercises that will not look deep into the matters that is one of the great strengths of the design of the anti-corruption system in Mexico now we must show results but that means that this must look into the system it's civil society that is present in most of the decision making processes of the system involving all powers the legislature the executive how many high-level officials have been prosecuted or are in jail now in Mexico we're not talking about expectations that fantastic system to trap the corrupt how many have you caught so far no we are still implementing it are you envious about what's happening in brazil or are you fearful about that hopefully that would happen in argentina and elsewhere i think we must think that what's happening in brazil is brilliant under certain conditions but it also shows you that there were people that were able to fail that struggle all this started with a police officer because of a van that was given as a gift to a businessman that is how the investigation started so there were honest people that did their job now let's not forget something that is very important and daniel will agree with me i'm sure although we didn't know each other before today there's a counter attack of corruption this what he was saying let's not let corruption go do this or that but this same situation that brazil is experiencing has happened in italy with a manipulati then they drafted laws so that things weren't so violent that justice being more moderate and corruption came back not as badly as before and it's like being pregnant either you are pregnant or not we can't avoid corruption totally because there may that may exist at different levels but it is not tolerating corruption and also knowing that corruption counter attacks so starting up a program like the one in mexico and in an advanced example like brazil but beware because this is a never-ending struggle at company level and at institutional level i was asking you whether you were fearful because at the company and in the financial sector if we say that if you say that you put a country into a situation like brazil well it would be too serious we have to do things more gradually the foreign companies that are thinking of investing in argentina i believe are expecting to have something of the sword happen because their great fear is to have to enter the country with within a corruption model or their breach had to file a claim in the u.s we had the skanska case and many others but in order to be able to invest if we don't institutionally prove that we are clear and transparent here we have an endless number of claims that and slow investigations which is worse than not investigating at all why because you have that feeling that people do whatever they wish juan carlos is asking for the floor i agree with all you've said in general but i would like to question this a bit i'm not so sure that the system in maxico is so fantastic of course they are awarded prizes for their laws but when you look at the whole of the system the architecture is has been set up in such a way that it's difficult to enforce it's not really enforceable those teeth have been designed not to have full enforcement and this has happened on a systematic basis so part of this comes from the distribution of competences between the federal level and others the criminal justice system too is very complex investigation capabilities in Mexico very complex there are 40 different police forces 42 states federal police so to enact a good anti-corruption law that is granted a reward it's not the only thing although i fully agree with you to to preach by example and to see what has happened at the high level i think that sometimes staircases must be swept from bottom up in the sense that for instance in italy you can push corruption here and then it comes up somewhere else you catch this one and something else appears elsewhere unless you change the system of incentives look at the korean case there the widespread culture of the population has changed systematically in the last 30 years so that cultural change well we carried out a study where ultimately it's the hen and the egg when you try and see at what point you should act to change the results you realize it's education because when you have an educated population that really feels empowered to report or to file claims that population generates a dispersed system of 15 million chelons or another x million colombians which is the one that files the claim or the public employee to you have to be able to reward to whoever does that let's let the audience ask a couple of questions and then there's another one from the social networks introduce yourself please and make a very brief questions thank you very much i'm gido gazzoli i'm a correspondent in Buenos Aires of two italian newspapers and we've talked a lot about manipulite and i'd like to refer to that because that's very important indeed we don't have much time i'm sorry it says a moderator i uh experienced that first hand manipulite was possible uh because of an 87 year old old lady that was asked to pay a bribe when wanting to reserve a tomb at the cemetery and that is how the manipulite issue was triggered if you go to the milan tribunal if you went there you could see di pietro questioning di grazzi the from the socialist party he'd been a prime minister and was one of the most powerful in the italian republic but that had two basic elements that they both bore in mind the republic that was very much embedded in italy at the time so grazzi did not put everyone offence the tribunals not to allow journalists to access the courts like they do with the emperor baluchconi had 15 pending trials so the first thing he did was to eliminate civic education from schools so the problem as you said is is that we have to really experience what a republic is the passport of all latin americans say republic of republic of are you really a republic uh do you teach at schools what the constitution is what the republic means i don't think so many prosecutors in italy even the ex manipulite ones are at secondary schools teaching children what the constitution is all about because just like you did in italy the mafias and corruption could come back because the grounds prepared by baluchconi were exactly that eliminating the concept of republic having a country where everything is possible and where if you give me something i give you something in return i think education is really essential and it's something that is within the paci initiative of the world economic forum meanwhile another question that says how can society really help dismantle corruption so dismantle the pyramids the tools are there they were created 20 years ago the case that i just mentioned about the hospital in chiapas the the tutorship mechanism in columbia works they're very efficient so transparency mechanisms are in place but what's missing for instance when you look at the hong kong case which is a paradigmatic one in curbing corruption the case not only had to do with an investigation entity that could look into the private and public sector into public officials the president the head of government and at the same time there was a campaign of reaching out to citizens we made the same efforts in controlling and in carrying out the campaign the mechanisms are in place they can be improved but how do we set up the system so they can be honest good morning i'm claulio martinelli casper ke lab cyber security indeed politicians aren't born on mars politicians aren't born on mars they're brazilians bolivians columbians argentinians they are a part of our population and the big difference between our culture and the u.s culture is that here politicians are treated as kings and queens the senators are on the ministers have sort of noble titles or are treated like nobles here but here a celebrity or a personality is rewarded for his or her corruption while in the states they think that it's an aggravating factor there was a football player that was sentenced to 30 years for attacking his wife but if he were an ordinary citizen he wouldn't have been sentenced to so many years because he has to give the example but what happens in latin america is that politicians are considered as if they come from mars and they have the right to a rule that is solely applied to them thank you very much we just have five minutes before we adjourn i would just like to say that the size of the expectations have to do with the size of the collapse we are aware of the fact that expectations in the anti-corruption system are very high on the 18th of june it will be enforced and the government authority is part of the system so our responsibility is huge and the secretary of the public function is an essential component of the operation of this system it recognizes the challenge it has ahead and us authorities in each of our positions and society as a responsive one must make sure that the system works daniel going back to what alejandro said let me share one bit of information argentina the average time for a corruption case to reach completion is 14 years on average so that gives you the idea that justice is neither swift nor effective and i honestly commend mexico's clear commitment to the matter now i recognize two problems one is that the judiciary may have could have put a lot of corrupt people in prison without a major anti-corruption program and the second thing is you can confirm this but i understand that the level of impunity in mexico so cases that are not really completed successfully in the criminal field is 97 percent 97 percent so we're looking at a situation where obviously bringing all these cases to a judiciary that has a 97 degree of impunity which by the way is very similar to many of our judicious this example is not just peculiar to mexico thirdly i fully agree on education we need to change the mindset the heads minds and hearts of people in terms of corruption my impression is that culture changes take 20 30 years so what do we do in the meantime so at the same time what do we do and examples are fundamental because if you show that no one is privileged that there is no impunity when joseph the financier in brazil for the first time did the whistleblowing the rewarded blissful boy and he said well if i tell you what happened the republic will collapse and the prosecutor said okay just tell us and in the case of order break um same thing but the republic didn't collapse i think it's stronger today we may experience turbulence because obviously the turbulence will give the impression that democracy is weakened that there will be no more corruption that there will be no more business deals that investors will not come but you need to resist that it's like going to therapy there may be a somewhat hard phase but the result would be positive so how do we prop up the political system and that's what we need the commitment it's got to be a private a public private alliance between business and politicians good business people and good politicians they do exist not all politicians are corrupt nor are all business people corrupt we need to help form that alliance to work together alejandro precisely one of the points i wanted to make was about the time that will come when they will say that the republic will collapse or perhaps that we should perhaps slow down a bit because we're going to scare investors and that's an excuse that's corruption striking back and it's not true it will not happen and we should not tolerate that sort of situation simply because it's the easiest soft option my fear is i think argentina is undergoing a process we have a government with good intentions a government that wants to really change things i think mark train said this corruption is something you do in the dark so shed a light on it and let that light shine bright i think that's what we need to examine and we need to be careful because it will strike back two topics that we haven't touched upon in detail due to time constraints one is technology that's very important you know the reporting system the red tape you know the bidding processes all the steps required to get a passport two steps five steps ten steps how many need that's a whole area that you need to work on so technology to make government data accessible for public tenders for all sorts of processes right yes and an app to report the case that's part of the process and the second big matter is the role of the media of the mass media we didn't have time to discuss that but when you look at the correlation between corruption and freedom of the press and corruption and the investigative capabilities of the criminal justice system it all goes hand in hand and we think it's clear what direction this is going in in mexico the journalists that have undertaken the main investigative work are jobless now because 30 percent of the advertising budget is in the hands of government agencies that's another point we could devote an extra hour to this i think this has been a fascinating session so how do we fight corruption we're saying there's no single way to do it we can see there are key elements and we can see that our elements are balanced between elements independent prosecutor's office also open anonymous reporting challenge should exist the technology should be enabled which need to recognize the progress as Juan Carlos said we also need to recognize what has been done what is already there we also need to control party financing and we also need responsible leadership on the part of both business leaders and a commitment of the part of companies you know not to go into corruption as Alejandro said if i live in a sector that lives off tax evasion then my business is tax evasion i think it's very well put what are the new paths well we know based on what we've learned there is a lot in terms of what we know that a country must do in order to end corruption education is key we've heard about the italian case people in the streets in brazil that has all been highly positive let's hope we learn from this the world economic forum with its initiative p a c i will continue its work which has a major impact in terms of gdp thank you very much