 Welcome back into the original gangsters podcast. I'm your host Scott Bernstein along with my co-host my partner in crime the dr Jimmy Buccellato. Hi everyone. Hey now and behind the glass is our producer Ben the superstar the MVP of 2022 Benny Agusta Too nice. Nice Scott. So I'm really really really jacked about this episode. I've been hunting down our guests over the last month and finally was able to It's like when you go out fishing and and you bag that big that big trophy fish and I'm so excited to bring on a Hall of Famer a an icon in law enforcement in the in the state of Oklahoma and one of the more Decorated detectives in the history of the Tulsa police department Mike Hough. Thank you for joining us You are your reputation precedes you Well, thank you for the nice words I'm just made it to the finish line. So that's all I wanted to do Took me about 37 years to get there, but I got there Well, we're gonna talk about one of the highlights of your career and just I'm gonna give everyone a quick You know minute to two-minute primer which with me maybe means four or five minutes But I'll try to be quick and then we're gonna throw it to Mike and we're gonna just deep dive this thing. So we're gonna talk about the night that the 1981 gangland slaying of Roger Wheeler You know Dare I say the most infamous murder in Oklahoma history There haven't I'm guessing had never been before or since a organized crime related Mob hit that went down in Oklahoma Roger Wheeler was one of the most prominent businessmen in Tulsa multi-millionaire an Owner of a professional sports league It was called world highlight and for people that you're probably in their 40s or Older might remember in the 1980s early 90s on ESPN World highlight had a television deal and there was a lot of highlight being Produced and shown on on television and then there was the opening of Miami Vice the iconic cop TV show and NBC would would have highlight in their opening credits and We can talk about what that game is in a second, but Roger Wheeler was the owner of world highlight he traced his roots back to South Boston and When he purchased world highlight and I believe 1978 He was unaware that the Irish mafia the Irish mob the Winter Hill gang from Boston Whitey Bulger's group had infiltrated had already infiltrated the administration and the security force and the accounting department at world highlight and they were stealing from a Vending and parking contracts that world highlight had in Connecticut It was a big sport when it was when it was in its heyday It was a really big sport in New England and in Florida were the really the two hot spots and Roger Wheeler discovered that he was being fleeced by these South Boston mob guys that he had not let in the front door the they had been let in the front door before he'd even Owned the company, but when he made it known that he was gonna clean house The South Boston Winter Hill gang got nervous because they saw a big stream of of illegal income Coming to a conclusion. They put out a hit on Wheeler. They gave the hit to a prolific South Boston hitman named Johnny Mardirano and Johnny Mardirano in May of 1981 traveled to Tulsa did a couple days of Recon and then went to southern hills country club one of the most historic Famous golf clubs country clubs in the United States just had I believe just had the u.s. Open recently Or one of the majors was there recently and Roger Wheeler was a member of southern hills and had just finished his Weekly for some I believe it was a Wednesday and when he came into the parking lot to go home. He was murdered by Johnny Mardirano and because of the corruption in the Boston FBI that we learned about years later with whitey bulger being this ruthless organized crime lord that was also a Confidential informant for the FBI What we're going to hear about from mike is this very heroic tale of trying to solve A epic murder case while being undermined by forces in law enforcement When you when you're running a local investigation In Oklahoma and you need to get help from the federal authorities in massachusetts And you're being told you're crazy And to look look in the other direction. You don't know what you're talking about And mike hoff saw this thing to the end from day one He was the first detective on the scene when this happened on may 27 1981 And then he eventually closed down this case in the early 2000s after Johnny Mardirano Flipped and we were able to finally put to bed This this this great unsolved mystery or this former unsolved mystery that just transfixed so many people for 30 years Mike, thank you so much for joining us Yes, sir So mike, let's take let's just take you back to that day. Uh, i'm sure you weren't uh This probably wasn't a a normal occurrence getting called to a place like southern hills to learn that there had been a gangland homicide Oh, no, this was uh something that was uh Really unique. I mean we'd never been there. Uh, it's a Beautiful place, but guys like me, uh, don't play golf at places like southern hills You know, maybe tiger woods jack nichols is out there playing but not me So talk about when the call came in you're just on your desk. You're a young detective. You'd been a detective at that point for a year um, it's about what four five o'clock and you get a phone call I was uh Actually sitting there waiting for a phone call Uh from the hospital I had shot a guy a couple weeks before a a murder suspect and He was in icu and I started off each shift Call in the hospital And seeing if he's still alive So we did that and then we decided that We need to Do the most important thing in the shift and that was make it out for dinner so that phone call from southern hills Interrupted our dinner plans and uh We made our way out there uh And having no idea, you know what had happened. We thought maybe it was uh A kitchen help or a groundskeeper A dispute or something and so as we got there it was uh um Put to us that Mr. Wheeler walked out to his car from the clubhouse Uh a guy walked up open his door shotting between the eyes and That guy and a driver um drove out of the parking lot So that was the start of our day So there were eyewitnesses to there were there were several eyewitnesses, right? There were 13 eyewitnesses Most of them were up in an area Where the swim swimming pool was so they were really focused On that area of the parking lot, but we did have some witnesses uh a couple of them got partial tag numbers of a the getaway car and uh So we had something to work with at that time At what point did you realize this was a professional hit and this wasn't just You know a domestic dispute or an argument between employees like that this was a contract hit Well, you know a hit has a lot of things it could be a hit with uh Say a personal dispute mr. Wheeler had A lot of business dealings. Uh, he wasn't necessarily You know A great Leader in the business world. I mean he always was looking for a better Deal And so we thought maybe that to be a business dispute Maybe it had some personal aspect to it so We thought he was targeted for the murder but We had no idea that The mob would be behind this That took a while to get there talk a little bit about roger wheeler the man uh He made his fortune he came from uh Boston to oklahoma. I believe in the 40s and made his fortune in uh oil and then eventually of audio electronics Yes, he uh, he grew up, uh, you know Pardon me. He grew up in uh, boston from uh, you know Not a wealthy family. I think his father was a Uh printer at the christian science monitor, uh, which is located in boston And uh, so he went to the navy Um in world war two Came back Uh, I don't know where he went to college off off hand right now but uh He met his wife who was from tansas And so they got married. They wound up moving to tossa And You know, he became a wheel in in tossa. I mean he he really was Turning over deals right and left telex corporation which was An employer about 5 000 people mr wheeler was CEO chairman the board He also had side investments with oil and gas He owned a beautiful ranch south of tossa Um You know, he had uh, he had made about 50 million dollars turn them over an investment. Uh, that was uh, uh, a pipe Company and at that time Oil was uh Turned on an upswing in okuma and so that uh investment with the pipe Crave is a 15 million dollar profit And so with that 50 million He started reaching out looking for investments And he was led to this investment Uh by the first rate to boston And uh, so he uh, it was like it was like a business associate of his Or someone that he knew I don't know if it was some childhood or not That was a big shot at the first bank of boston and unbeknownst to wheeler The hadn't this guy kind of let some of the roosters into the henhouse Yes, that's a great word So mr wheeler was kind of a patsy in this deal. He was led to this investment Um, organized crime had its hooks in it. Uh before mr wheeler got there The first bank of boston was uh, you know Involving themselves in it. I mean you couldn't figure out who you see when you really needed a program to figure out who the players were So the banker was Compromised from the beginning. He was the banker had some ties in into southeast and in winter hill I believe so he knew that that that highlight was a compromise was a yeah And so let's also let people know what exactly highlight is So again, I if you're all if you're a little bit older You probably have some memories of it. If you're under 40 right now, you probably have no idea What highlight is so maybe explain what that is mike Highlight is this very fast-moving game And there's at least two people playing on a highlight port and uh They're they have these uh baskets On their arm. They're called uh, believe sestas and uh They sling this very hard ball Uh with those sestas it gets going well over 100 miles an hour and the ball Pilata Uh hits a granite wall uh slide plan hand handball or racquetball And uh that granite wall Will propel the ball back and the other guy Uh gets the ball and throws a new play kill Uh one or the other Uh doesn't make that return pro And so It's kind of like a cross between high speed handball and racquetball The it was uh from from my research It was uh invented in an area in europe between spain and france And uh hundreds it ended up in miami as it started in new england Or okay these um I'm not sure what the region is called but people from that region They ended up coming to New england and to hartford connecticut and boston and i think in the 20s or 30s And yes, eventually it's expands to to miami and and parts of all really all up and down the florida coast And uh, I think the the the thing we should emphasize for people that are trying to wrap their head around What it is and why would it be of interest to people like roger wheeler or the the winter hill gang um is because there it was a sport that was It was a vehicle for betting. I mean all sports are to an extent sure especially now in an era where betting is legalized but If you can just picture a time in america where that wasn't the case and that uh, this was an entire sport that really You know their viewership and their Uh fan base was 90 percent Based on the wagering that was going on there was really no It wasn't a recreational sport like nationwide. It was right. It was geared to but there's a lot of betting a lot of money going Flowing in and out the whole time mike was describing that all i'm thinking about is the miami vices And I can hear the music I can hear the yon hammer music and the and the women in the bathing suits I remember that So talk a little bit about the fact that So when when he when he buys into world highlight He is encountered by a man named paul rico who was the head of security who has a former big-time fbi agent Uh in boston and had been the guy that had recruited whitey bulger in the first place and rico retires from being A dirty a dirty fbi agent and becomes the head of security at world highlight as a point man for these Southy gangsters, but mike what I want you to talk to is at I think people because Because wheeler was someone that was known as a as a tough guy and as a guy that liked to surround him a lot of His businesses he would hire retired fbi agents That they I think their idea was that he would hit it off with rico Or maybe be seduced by rico And in fact him and rico started to butt heads really quickly Yes, he really was Attracted to this business because of the retired fbi agents That were involved there and of course we until was the point man form and You know It was in a time when you couldn't google Everything. I mean you didn't have a a computer in your hand. I mean Research on Good and bad things was just a very time-consuming if not impossible situation so He just felt good about the fbi agents Being there, but uh shortly thereafter He didn't think the The money was what it was Explained to him that it would be and he kept questioning rico and also the the Executive manager of old hotline guy named dick tonovan And uh, he wasn't getting very good answers from them So he was worried about that and they weren't very forthcoming And so this just started the bad relationship He also got a letter at that time Uh anonymous letter said I wouldn't buy this if you know if I were you there's things going on behind the scenes that You know you wouldn't approve of so That's really interesting Well, I think the irony is interesting the way that uh might just laid it out There's an irony there that the people that were trying to dupe him thought the uh that Because he was comfortable with retired fbi agents working in his past companies That the draw to this well. Hey look we have all these retired fbi agents that are keeping things nice and safe On the open up we have this, you know, paul rico who was at the time not known as a dirty fbi agent he was known as A kind of a superstar fbi agent in in the uh, you know, at least from a public perspective And the idea was to lure him in thinking. Hey, this is all Nice and buttoned up when in reality it was the exact opposite. These were compromise A former federal law enforcement. Do we know who would have sent that letter just out of curiosity? Like yeah, we were able we were able to trace that We tried to trace that and we couldn't ever figure it out I believe obviously it was someone on the inside But we don't know who that may have been I mean, that's a real solid for someone to do to give him a heads up on that if he would have taken that seriously He might be alive Be alive today, you know, but that was uh interesting that someone tried to forewarn him like So as we get into the way as we get into the early 80s He makes it clear That he's gonna that well first of all, he hires his own private investigation firm And starts investigating The security force that he has on warped. I like right, Mike Well, he was Trying to gather information on He decided that Maybe geographically If he got rid of uh, Hartford Uh in new england, maybe this would kind of cut the tie with any potential boston organized crime So he put the the sale in progress of Hartford and that sale actually Finalized in march of 1981 and Uh, you know, that was That was a reason for him to say that he was gonna Kind of call the staff some thinking that if he got enough staff that he would find uh, the the link between organized crime and The problem and uh His loss of revenue So he started uh making those noises and in january of 1981 um of boston thug named bryan halloween was approached by uh By uh whitey bulger and his partner steve fleamy And also a guy named john callahan Who was the former president of world highlight before we were Made the purchase and they said hey If this goes through we're due to lose a million dollars a year. Uh, we want uh We were taken out and we want it done in tosa because we'll never solve it there So brian halloween thought about it for a while And he said We and i wanted to go all the way to calsa You know I don't want to get caught up with the boston accent in calsa and uh You know feel good about this so they gave him You know a few thousand bucks And he declined it went on down the road So he didn't have any further involvement But on may 27th of 81 So roger wheeler was going to his car after around the gulf and like I said It was johnnie margarano that opened the car door shutting between the eyes shut the door and Walked to the getaway car where they drove out of southern hills and into rush hour traffic and uh You know that was it so You know that was the start of a long odyssey of an investigation uh You know we tried to play by the rules. We tried to get along with the fbi We Tried to share information turned out and shared too much They played with us like a You know a cat played with a mouse and uh You know I look back and I say, you know If there was a google if there was If there were cell phones If so, you know, we just had pagers at the time And so it was really hard and difficult to try to Connect with people You know all around the country and Uh, you know that information seemed like everything was a dead end and so We were looking at Some leads that we got in over the first couple days Which really turned out to be a very interesting lead We know if in a different direction of organized crime and we met with Epi agents in Tulsa, no homo city and they were going to handle the The organized crime angle on east coast But was there a point when they were thinking maybe Dixie mafia had something to do with us That was the lead that we got on We we got a a tip we we put out a artist drawing And this artist An indian artist that was in law enforcement at the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation Was he just drew wonderful suspect pictures and Over the years I saw so many times Looked like a picture And it was a drawing, you know, you can see the guy the real bad guy and see what what this Investigator drew and think man. He just drew this off this picture So we got that we put that up to the news media and immediately We got a call and said hey, it looks like this guy named pat early and Pat early was a guy in the Dixie mafia and He was a he had the reputation to Really You know pull this off. He was a killer. He was a Bomber, he you know, he he had his finger and everything and He would know the people that he could go to for To be hidden out, you know in the Oklahoma area So we thought he was a very logical suspect. So we we focused on him along with the alcohol tobacco and firearms and the Oklahoma bureau of narcotics and in Oklahoma City and You know the story of pat early he worked for a guy that Smuggled drugs just as a hobby. I mean he would outfit Plains to To smuggle those drugs and You know pat early was kind of his bodyguard and forcer Whatever you want to call it pat early would take on a buzz saw so We tried to Figure out how we're going to approach that pat We got an undercover guy into pat and He was trying to arrange a large quantity of Narcotics and that never really materialized pat was so So leery of anything new to him But one of the stories about pat this this guy that That would smuggle drugs. He had a water well drilling company that was Located in libya And he was of value to the cia and so He and pat were in libya uh on a Some sort of company situation And one of the people they were dealing with Told them. Hey, I know these terrorist guys And they stole the surface dare missile in their plan on using it so Here's this guy from oklahoma the dixie mafia And he's negotiating with terrorists to Gain control of the surface dare missile And that really did happen So, you know, that was just a start of You know Gee this is a Going to be an outlandish investigation. I mean it's going to take me everywhere And it really did And that's not it like we were talking about the The fact that in 1981, you know communication just In life is different If i'm sure it's Uh, you know a 180 from where it was, uh With law enforcement between the early 80s and now But that's not accounting for the subterfuge That you were also encountering So let's talk about when you finally get on to the fact that this could have come from organized crime in boston And you start heading in that direction, but jimmy wants to add Yeah, I just want to before we do that though, um if you could just um first of all I'm not surprised that A drug dealer was connected to someone who's a cia asset, right? That does not surprise me at all We've had episodes where we've touched up on that, but can you guys um Just unpack a little bit the dixie mafia. I think our audience might not know I think that's an interesting case study, but the the dixie mafia isn't really what it sounds like It's not like la cosa nostra where you have this very um intertwined interconnected group of 26 families that are operating around the country with a Governing body in the hierarchy, right the dixie mafia was like a loosely very very loosely In some cases not connected at all But if there were connections the connections were very loose and it just it just was a kind of a catchall for any organized crime groups that were operating in southern The regions that had no la cosa nostra. So they were able to kind of operate unfettered But they were in the same stuff like prostitution and drugs, uh, and they were usually gambling extortion Basically hillbilly gangsters cornbread mafia. Yeah, hell bam hillbilly mafia cornbread mafia Dixie mafia, right and there was like a you know an This early guy was like, uh, you know, oh tell me if i'm if i'm right, uh, mike this early guy was like one of oklahoma's You know non-italian OC powers Oh, absolutely. Um, and i'll tell you something. I haven't shared with many people but My uncle was a uh a bootlegger and He was a really powerful bootlegger and uh corrupted I believe up to the governor of the state of oklahoma and he corrupted a district attorney and But I probably you know As all this is going on i'm just a kid growing up and My dad didn't know about it per se. My mom didn't really know about it Uh, so I would I would go over to their house. They had a really nice house and um, I learned to ride a bicycle and The Dixie mafia was hanging out at my aunt and uncle's house So I met some of these guys. I don't know if I met early Uh, but I met some Dixie mafia guys And uh, you know, it's just a kid uh But uh You know, they were Part of the crew Uh, they flew from Tulsa To mcnary county, Tennessee uh And they killed Beef from pusser's wife They shot beef from pusser up and uh They they flew back and um over the years Uh, when that happened, I don't know This was before I came on the police department when that happened But my partner in homicide uh, dick bishop He ran into beef from pusser because beef from pusser had a A crust if you will uh So he could investigate his wife's murder And it brought him to Tulsa very frequently and so That's that's what happened to him Let's let's just let pusser was a sheriff walking tall. Let's let's just drop a couple pop culture You know tidbits that that have sprinkled on our conversation. So, uh, beef from pusser Who we just referenced was the kind of the it was a sheriff that was the basis of the movie walking tall Joe don baker played him in the 70s and then one of my favorite movies that the rock has ever been in Was a remake of of walking tall. I think was one of the rock's first movies. Um, so that's kind of uh, You know art imitating life, uh, you know in terms of dixie mafia stuff, but we also About five ten minutes ago talked about brian halloran and how the roger wheeler murder was, um Coordinated so if you remember the movie for people that are listening if they've seen or remember the movie black mass With johnny depp playing whitey bulger. There is Both a scene depicting roger wheeler's A murder at southern hills, but there's also a character played by actor, uh, peter sarsgard who plays brian halloran and And then I want to tie this back into when you Realize that the dixie mafia Angle is not the right angle to be going after and you kind of turn your attention to to south boston or what's going on in massachusetts but haloran being recruited to Possibly be the hitter in this And the fact that whitey bulger Is cooperating with the fbi secretly and is being fed information The information was going both ways so brian halloran By being asked to commit the wheeler murder even though he turned it down He is exposed when all this wheeler stuff starts to pop up and As mike knows and then I want to turn it over to mike You know halloran got killed Because the fbi was protecting whitey bulger. They told whitey. Hey, just so you know brian halloran's been in our office And he told us that you killed roger wheeler and he told us that uh, you know, you did all this other stuff so You know and that was some of that was portrayed in the movie black mass So mike take us back to when you kind of get hip to Uh, the the winter hill guys as possibly being culprits here Well in um, I believe it was jill. I of 1981 we were summoned if you will to um Massachusetts and we met with the The director of the state police colonel old donban who was a legend and It was a very cryptic meeting he said uh, that there might be some boston guys involved And uh, he gave us some names I don't know whitey bulger's name Was in it initially But he opened the door and we developed this association with the state police And it turns out that uh, brian howlin Had a brother that was a state trooper And so some of this information is coming from brian to his brother To the head of state police. How did the guy do that? Wow yeah, and It got very confusing of who you could talk to and who you couldn't talk to And uh, who knew about it? Who was kept secret from it? So it was uh, it was really A frustrating sometimes scary And uh, you know for a guy from oklahoma Kind of stepping into this world of organized crime You know, I have always had a interest in it But you know, I never thought I would Experience it so up close and personal and have so much on the line Whether it be Safe wise Whether it be reputation wise Uh, because these guys played for keeps Every switch way. I mean they were they didn't like it. They crashed your reputation Uh, you know, they'd set you up I mean there were things that went on in this case that I look back today And I say no, I can't believe that I made it through this case and uh, you know, I really only Only did I mean I was Really thinking about trying to uh promote and get away from this case. I mean I Chief of police and Trying to promise me that that I'd have a a good chance to Make some good promotions and I said, oh, all I ever wanted to do is be a home side detective And so I didn't take those up, but um Sometimes I kind of wish I did when I'm looking at my pension but uh Anyway, it just really was uh In an eye opener for me. So when you went to Hang up on that. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. Mike. I wanted to ask you about something that I think you encountered in boston And and I want you to speak to it or correct me if i'm speaking uh out of school But wasn't there a situation where it was either this trip to boston or another trip to boston where They brought bolder and flemy Into the fbi office or the state police office And there was like a two-minute conversation like hey guys We want to know if you had anything to do with the roger wheeler murder and they were both like nope Sorry, nothing to see here. They're like, all right. Sorry you guys can go home And then they came back to you guys are like, yeah, we asked them and they said no so you there's nothing to see here Well, that's exactly true. Although we weren't there when that happened, uh, or we would have uh You know caught the guys on the way out of the building or something. They sat uh, flemy and bolger Down in the room together And he said hey, did you guys do this and they said no and that was it. I mean truly that was it and You know, that's not why you do things and you know, I don't know why they um Thought they could keep that secret promise, but they tried to For a while. I mean not all fbi agents Involved for were bad But some of them stumped and uh You know other guys that didn't agree with them would kind of give me a phone call here or there and say You know, hey watch out this guy's on there. Sorry. Wow stuff like that. Wow Well, he's talking about promotions and it's like well, what's the motive in addition to john connelly who was the the main Corrupted fbi agent who grew up with or grew up in the same neighborhood as bolger and eventually became his mole In the government, but you know, he was getting bolger was giving him some things but besides that con and talking about promotions connelly and his unit or whatever used bolger and flemmy To make cases against the italian mafia in boston jerry and julio the raymond patriarca that larry zanino that whole crew and And wiped those wiped all those guys out by the by the mid 80s And connelly was looked at as a as a hero a gang buster and got and got promotions Based on bolger and flemmy helping them bring down the italians, but in return Bolger and flemmy got all that territory that the italians Left when they went to prison. Yeah, that was the whole point Yeah, so and mike did you have any direct dealings with connelly? Did you ever talk to him about this investigation? Oh, yeah, I did connelly also bragged i mean just outright bragged that In order to bring down the italians that In quote his irish would be okay so That's that's where that went and you know from a guy that has irish roots and You know, my family came in from from dublin To boston You know, I really felt something unique here Just history and in whatever and see it just perverted into You know, this guy's getting away with murder or this guy rigged the lottery or You know things like that and i'm thinking how in the hell could I be Caught up in this thing and do I want to get off this? merry-go-round or not It actually was my my last conversation with my with my dad in the early 80s You know, I talked to him about hey, I think i'm smack dab in the middle of of Some fbi corruption and a lot of things going on and You know I just didn't I didn't think I could win This deal. I mean, I really I looked at it. I said, you know, here I am you know this Very young detective very inexperienced I mean, I had plenty of murders under my belt, but you know A gang murder In Tulsa a little bit different than a gang land Mercer, you know and So my dad just said hey Stick with this and see it through And I don't think he had any idea of what he was telling me But oh, that's all I could hear From from time his death on I mean this Tell me this the night before his death and so he's the one that kind of Pointed me in the right right direction till he keep on with the steal So what what point does the case go from? I mean, was it always an open active case or Was there a point where they kind of put it to bed? But you were still tasked with being if there was you know any breaking news It's going to go to mic or any breaking tips It's going to go to mic was there ever a point when the the the case was actually put like on the back burner Or was it always on the front burner? Well, for me it was always on the front burner I don't think the police department really Was keeping track of all I was doing I pretty much Kept it to myself made reports If anybody asked but You know your eyes could glaze over looking at all my reports and so You know it stayed on the front burner Pat early was there for About a year we spent a lot of time in oakland city and He finally got popped on a small drug charge And so I was there The next morning or maybe later that night and You know pat early He didn't Having good thoughts at all about the police He had Had already made up his mind. He wasn't going to talk and So I just sat down started talking to him and You know I mentioned who my uncle was and He recalled him and I mean that alone didn't Didn't make him talk but He got him thinking about me and and whatever I asked him if you ever remember the kid over at my uncle's house when they were hanging out there on occasion and You know he didn't say for sure he did but He didn't tell me to get out of the room. He didn't lawyer up and so sat and talked to him and You know the one interesting thing I mean sure he's gonna He's gonna deny that had anything to do with it I by this time I didn't think he did but He said something interesting he said All I heard was that the first bank of boston was behind this. Wow So It didn't really soak in at that time You know the information is just Coming in like crazy. So, you know You got so many pieces of malusia and he couldn't quite Figure out where they fit in the puzzle That's interesting that Oh, sorry that I was just going to say it's interesting that the Dixie mafia was already hearing gossip in the underworld That they would that that would already make its way to them Even though they had nothing to do with it. No, no skin in the game. That's really intriguing Especially that deep not just like all these irish guys and but like The bank so you keeping tabs on what's going on in boston through the 80s into the 90s when balder eventually Uh gets indicted and goes on the run. So what's going on between? Yeah, between let's say the After the case is super hot Uh and then as the as the decade goes on what's what's your position? Well, this is a long story. Sorry, but uh in may of 1982 Brian howlin gets gunned down in boston Human and kid named michael donahue Donahue's dad was a sergeant on the boston police department and he Had just decided to give brian home a ride home from this bar. Yeah wrong place Yeah, that I didn't know yeah wrong place wrong time. Yeah, right on the water in south boston. Yeah, that I knew. Yeah, yes and so You know the car drove up gunned him down All this stuff and so it was probably Three or four days after that Before we even got word of that murder because again that communication just You know hadn't hadn't caught up and so we decided at that time to Go to boston we went to boston Nobody wanted to help us except the state police and and these guys the connecticut state police Who had investigated? Wheeler Purchase of the Hartford phone pump and those guys were great. They were just so smart and You know, they taught me so much so We kind of formed an alliance and you know, we got with the city of boston and PD and we're working with them and so we all had a kind of a confat and That's where the first really real revelation that the fbi is involved in this thing and These guys had the history on paul rico Uh, they had the history of how paul rico connected to Winterhill and You know, this is something that upset us so much because The fbi and The department of justice Had howling and he was talking about armler and they didn't call us and so wow then howling gets killed and uh So we went up there and we we made a A few enemies by letting them know that You know, this is our case not theirs You know, somebody gets prosecuted for murder. It's in paulson not in boston and So that was the case so As as that died down and we started trying to make a plan We made a plan to Try to bring John calahen in and turn him into a A source of information because Howling was a little bit further out from the spoke and Calhoun calhoun was right at kind of the middle of it and so we thought he's the next guy So Myself and A mess to stay trooper and a couple guys from connective state police and in my partner We went to A prosecutor he was the head of the organized crime strike force in new england. His name was jeremiah selvin and um I was surprised that We were unannounced He left into his office and we started Talking to him confronted him about Brian howling he said it was his decision To cut brian howling loose without talking to us and You know, we kind of had some words over that He uh We also told him that We needed his help and I mean, you know, when you go into a A federal prosecutor you think you're really talking to somebody that Is doing the right thing and We told him we needed help to To bring john calhoun in and give him a deal If he was involved in this murder conspiracy and so He didn't give us any indication that he would but he didn't tell us outright. No, so We went looking for calhoun and You know, this guy was out on town Every day and night in boston so We had to travel to a bunch of different bars to try to find it and we didn't find him and So There was the article in the newspaper up there The town leaked like a seah and it was crazy. Everybody was talking in bean town Yes, and somebody Um Leaked I think it was the globe The detectives in Tulsa Were trying to serve calhoun with a grand jury subpoena, which was not true We just want to talk to and So we looked and looked a lot Spent first four more days there Couldn't find him came back to Tulsa and He was literally I mean, I almost stepped in the door of my front Front door of my house and the phone was ringing And I picked it up and somebody asked Hey, is this detective Micah? I said yeah and He said hey, this is a detective hammer smith I'll never forget his name From metro day police department in florida So you're looking for john calhoun And I said yeah, I've been looking all week for him And he said well, we got him Down here and I thought oh great. We're gonna Change clothes, repack the bags and head back to to miami we said He's in the trunk of a car at the airport There was a diamond chest Wow and All this is crashing in on this just just get the audience understand or the the listeners understand this So halloween is murdered in may Callahan is murdered in I think the first week of august last week of july So this is all happening in the same two months. Yeah, which is a year after wheeler. Yeah was killed Yes 1982 So between halloween's murder and The first august we had made a couple trips to boston and You know, we really just I don't want to say we'd given up, you know in august, but I was scared that the city of tulsa was going to give up for us Because There's a lot of money floating around On these trips and stuff, you know, I mean it just wasn't in the budget to To chase a mob hit all over the country It was kind of expensive But I think everybody got their eyes opened up when they heard Heard the story about a solvent Here's some comments that he didn't let halloween talk to us and halloween winds up dead and then we tell him that We want to talk to call him and then call him winds up dead and You know, this is just We just didn't really know what We knew we were in the middle of a hurricane But It's a crossfire hurricane You were getting it from all sides because the fbi in boston was feeding winter hill and whitey bulger Information directly from intelligence files and who was informing on what? Now was there pressure from that did we either have family? I mean, are you is there like local pressure to solve this case? I mean, what's the what's the atmosphere like in tulsa during all of this? well telex is one of the biggest employers in tulsa and it really supported Thousands more jobs than just the company itself. I mean a lot of uh, you know contractors things like that So everybody was concerned about this they expected this to be solved The family Not so much other than One of the sons david wheeler Who had Been sent to miami to run a computer program To try to figure out where the money was going and So david had a real bird's eye view of what's going on there and he absolutely um Didn't care for paul rico. He thought paul rico was behind this paul rico is the person that actually informed him of his dad's death To pull back the Tulsa And at this time You know, this was when we were so tied up on the dixie mafia and the fbi had suggested And our brass agreed that they would handle the East coast organized calm angle or more high life So in that The fbi agent said he would use David wheeler as his source to get him information at at high life And uh, he's lucky he didn't get killed At that point. David wheeler's lucky. He didn't end up dead. That's what I mean Yes, absolutely And mic was agreed to that finish up mic. Sorry Oh, we agreed to that. We had no idea what we're agreeing to I mean, we expected everybody is honest everybody's you know you're gonna Tried to solve this case that wasn't that So let's draw the line now as we as we come to a close here I could I could have this conversation for two hours. I love it. Yeah, and we're gonna bring you back on at some point mic for for a uh, I want to do it episode now, I really do for an encore Appearance because you're you've just been great. This is the exact type of perspective and insight We want to give our listeners and viewers, you know going straight to the source and mic Like we said he was there at ground zero and then he saw up through to the very end 30 years later And that's where I want to bring us to uh, so the the the links that you can make between wheeler may of 81 uh Halloran may of 82 Callahan august of 82 all gangland style murders tied to world highlight ordered by Whitey bulger at the top of the winter hill gang, but Carried out all three of these murders carried out by john martirano now whitey was with him on the Halloran hit but martirano A single handedly killed wheeler With bulger killed Halloran and then down in florida killed Callahan who I from from my research again tells me that Callahan and martirano were like best friends And uh And martirano did not kill Halloran That was whitey and another guy. Okay, so martirano was not at that hit. No, okay. I stand correct But so but he but he definitely killed Callahan Yes, and then 1995 Bulger's reign comes to an end a couple years before that, uh, john connelly who had been his primary mole and the fbi had retired Bulger's indicted in 95 along with flemmy along with johnnie martirano um bulger goes on the run And is missing for the next 16 years but flemmy and and martirano Uh Go into custody a lot quicker and they both end up cooperating and This does martirano's cooperation solve this case for you? Oh, it helped but there are so many pieces pieces of the puzzle that You know, it was more than just uh saying hey, I did it. Uh, it's over. Um, you know in In the 80s We had kind of thought we're uh at a Not a dead end, but nothing much was happening in the late 80s and I got approached by a reality Uh tv show and at that time They didn't exist the very first one was called unsolved mysteries and so We got permission to do that and They reenacted it and I also put up a couple Pictures of persons of interest one of them was uh martirano and uh so That very first show had a viewership of Excoordinary Numbers that was the first unsolved mysteries ever That was the pilot for unsolved mysteries in 1987 robert stack, right? The first episode of unsolved mysteries. Uh, mike is referring to and was the wheeler case. They featured the wheeler case. That's cool Yeah, actually it was raymond burr Oh, it was raymond burr. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah pre-bop stack. Yes. He remembers everything. Pre-bop. Mike remembers everything So anyway, um You know years later after uh martirano is in test day and i i meet up with him and um He said he was on vacation in hawaii. Here's a hitman on vacation in hawaii and he's he's sitting on her bed putting on his shoes and uh Unsolved mysteries is showing and he said i looked up I I saw my picture on tv and you saying that you wanted to talk to me and uh He said i knew right then i was going to meet you and he said he spoiled my vacation so i got a heck of a lot of that and so as Things are are coming to a head with uh bulger and flaming and all this stuff and and they're um The state police and massachusetts are putting that together They have somebody That they're kind of talking to that says hey I don't know What this guy's naming and i can't remember what his name is uh, but it was on a rerun of unsolved mysteries and uh, some talked out in somewhere Said he wanted to talk to him And I know he's hooked in with these guys, but I don't know what his name is and so They researched unsolved mysteries And they figured out oh, they're talking about margarano. So through this guy They were able to arrest margarano. So our decision to to do unsolved mysteries brought margarano into fold and uh So I felt real good about that and and wasn't it the case that Once people started to realize like it as the 90s start to come to a close And now we're you know five years removed from whitey being off the streets You're going on 30 years removed from the wheeler case But you had a number of organized crime figures From new england sitting behind bars And I'm glad you pointed out that uh margarano was only caught because of unsolved mysteries In uh in a segment about roger wheeler, which eventually brings margarano into custody based on a tip but Uh and he starts singing right away right but what i'm saying is There are a number of guys that were linked up with whitey in one way or the other or linked up with winter hill One way the other both irish and italian because this included margarano and included cadillac frank salami who was the the the boston italian mafia boss in the 90s who was a uh aligned connected to the irish with southy and winter hill But you had a number of guys that while they're in prison Going over their case documents Come to the conclusion that this whole time I've been in bed with a confidential informant Aka whitey and all of these guys. I'm pretty sure Line up at the prosecutor's door to cut deals because they feel so Uh, you know So wronged by whitey and it and it really had nothing to do with um Brain and none of these guys see that they broke an oath. They're like an oath was broken against me right Yes, that's true and uh, it didn't happen uh very quick. It took over a year or so to To negotiate with margarano because he had so many Bodies attached to him so many different jurisdictions Everybody had to sign off on this and everybody's family had to sign off on if margarano just kept this mouth set He would have been a free man in a couple of years So margarano was he was killing guys for the italians too, right? Wasn't he on both both sides because his brother was his brother became a capo for uh, for solemn Okay, yes He was he dated all the way back to the 60s and the irish mob wars But I do think he was taking some contracts from angelo in the 70s. Yeah Uh, I think the another point I want to make Is so the the fbi made this conscious decision basically to trade The italians for the irish, but if you look at the the Records or you look at the stats And you're talking about homicides that you can tie to each organization it's There were not I mean there were murders in the italian mafia. I'm not saying there weren't but let's say that you go from 1970 to 1995 weighty boulder was responsible for probably triple the amount of murders Uh, then the italians were there's a lot more blood thirsty Yeah, he was evil and uh, so did you get to meet with you got to meet with johnny margarano? Oh, yeah several times You know, I even uh I was in boston after he Was released from jail and We sat at a bar together and and had drinks and talked about it. Wow and You know, he's not No way not a friend At all. I don't have any respect for him other than the fact that He did what he said he was gonna do and that was solve the wheel murder and Talked about fighting and whatever so What a journey what an odyssey that you that you uh, and what it what? What I think how does it speak to or look look how it speaks to the constitution of of a guy like mike huff and the people that were uh a part of his team in tulsa and the resilience and the you know the the You want to talk about keeping an oath? I mean, this is the definition of keeping an oath the oath that he made as a as a police officer to to protect and serve Uh, this is you know, this was the ultimate You know 30 years fighting an uphill battle that even without the fact that People that should have been on your team were actually pretending to be on your team When in fact we're on the other team if you just take that away It's an uphill battle, but you add that you know into Uh the situation and it's you know, you've you've climbed mount olympus You know you you have Reach the pinnacle and and we just we tip we tip our hat to you and this has been an amazing conversation Well, thank you so much for having me, but I gotta tell you This is about one third of this story. I know I I know and I'm I'm angry that we couldn't spend another couple hours talking about this Well, give me a call back. Yeah, thank you. Mike, but before we uh, uh sign off just Take us Like through the maybe the last decade you when did you retire from? Just a real quick is when did you retire from the force? I retired uh 2011 30 years to the day after we were Got killed so you know back in um The mid 90s. I think it was Hell, I can't remember the exact day but we got Marta on no and we got flimmy on board and the two of them Gave us the puzzle pieces to get to paul rico who was The middle man paul rico worked for wheeler. Uh, he was the connection to bolger We called jack from south boston Uh on all his notes back and forth. We found on his desk and um we We finally got the da to uh file charges and rica was indicted and he died under indictment right no for He he did um he We arrested him and uh treat them with respect and um took him to jail and uh The jail at uh dade county is like a third world's country and uh We we brought him in there. He looked like he was uh Grift to kill and here was a guy that had a a goiter hanging from his neck Puss dripping out of it and um We go so what's that mean because you're not going to leave me here. Are you? I said, well, you're not taking me home You know, that was uh The next to the last time I saw him. He had some sort of altercation in the dade county jail and um We didn't know if he was breaking it or what But we finally got uh the approval for an air ambulance to transporting uh from Miami to Tulsa, you know, of course with a a deputy uh tax guiding and uh, so I met him at the airport and uh You know, we talked about it and uh He got subset at me he crapped his pants Who? Oh, yeah Well, you know the the shit was literally hitting the fan at that point Uh, like so are you are the last thing I want to ask you is are you on a cold case squad right now in retirement? Oh, yeah So you're still I mean even though you're retired you're still dabbling in in law enforcement well, I The sheriff who used to work for me in homicide As soon as he got elected he said hey, could you look at some cold cases for me? He had about 35 uh, so I went out and started recruiting people I got Friends of mine that were in the FBI a tfda at tpd and we all volunteer our time and You know something to do keeps sell the bars Well, we'll The society owes you a debt my friend. We owe you a debt here at the og Podcast Mike. Thank you so much. This has been this has exceeded expectations And I had pretty high expectations for this interview. So Mike you you hit it out of the ballpark We'll call me back. Thank you. Thank you, Mike. So this is uh, well, we'll see you next week Well, we'll have more uh, you know hard-hitting content like we bring you every week with guests like Mike Hough last week we had Retired atf agnacio estaban and we're going to keep on bringing you the the best guests that are possible on both sides of the law Keep breaking down all the the most pressing gangland news Available and keep giving you all the great content that you expect from the og podcast I'm scott burnstein for jimmy butchilato and our producer ben. We are out