 So this is a great question for Mark. He says, what are your best tips for keeping people engaged in online teams' calls? I'm constantly trying to improve my personality, keep people engaged. There's a lot of work to do. That'll take a while. Mike, possibly you're helping me with that. You're mentoring me. Don't have calls if you don't need to have calls, cover interesting material, high value. One of the favorite things is that, have an agenda and walk through that. I hate the whole thing. We've got an hour book, so we must use that entire hour. If you have an agenda of what you're trying to accomplish and get through that in 30 minutes, it was like, all right, and that's it, any final items and we'll wrap early and go. You're done. Don't fill the time. Also limit your audience, right? Do we need to invite 800 people to talk about a topic that only four people care about? Maybe we could record that and publish it out for the other 396 people who don't care. Let me ask this question. The two examples that you just gave, you both Sharon and Christian gave, how is that any different than in-person meetings? I mean, you should have an agenda at a person meeting. You shouldn't have a lot of side conversations in an in-person meeting. Running a Teams meeting is not a lot unlike running an in-person meeting. I mean, they should follow the same. Now, if you can't engage people in an in-person meeting, yeah, you have a little bit more distractions with the online meeting because they have multiple windows, they got their messenger going on, they got their phone sitting here, they got all of it in-person meeting. You know how you have some people that will sit there and type on their laptops while you're in a meeting? Pet peeve, annoying with me. Or looking at their phones or whatever. Exactly. You have the same issue magnified in an online meeting. But the basic having a effective meeting principles, I think still apply. Correct. But can I start this by saying, we should have said at the beginning of, well, it depends on what, because for most of what we're talking about, like a team meeting going in there and let's say there's 10 of us in there being focused, having a shared understanding of here's our goals, here's the outline, not waste people's times, being respectful of that, moving through what are our outcomes, like all of those kinds of things which are like project management 101, meeting 101. If you're doing a longer session, if you are instructing, you're presenting on something which, it's much more of that presentation mode. If that's kind of what Mark is asking, like that side of it, like there are things to do. I've seen some people that are more on the education side of industry, the field, that do things where they break up their content. They make sure that they're not eye chart PowerPoint slides that they have visuals and their specific things. I love for classes with students where you can actually go and I love when this is done well, have a presentation that's broken up by short video clips and then gets to a certain point and you can actually have a form created where you quiz people and insert quiz at intervals within the presentation to get people then that they have to go respond to these polls, to these surveys and answer questions to see if they're paying attention. Again, I think these could be done in an in-person meeting as well. I think if what you're saying, yeah, they apply to the same, but doing the whole forms and polling and stuff, that's a lot easier online because otherwise people have to get out a phone and they have to go to a website and they have to, you know, or they do the raise hands, you know, let's, you know, whoever's done that kind of a thing. I am working on a top secret project. I will share a little bit. It's IOT related that sends basically, you send it to all your employees, they affix it to the bottom of their chairs. You're telling us about it so it's not top secret. I know it was previously known as top secret. I now use like the same symbol Prince had previously known as top secret. No, but it sends an electrical, mild electrical, mild electrical shock to people that aren't paying attention. The shocking dog color, I said that first. That's right. So what I hear Mike saying is that this is a facilitation question, not a team's question. Yeah, a lot of it is. Look, I mean, there's a lot of things you can do to go and dazzle it, but I, like I jokingly said at the beginning is have a better personality. But there's something to be said about. There's something to be said about working on your presentation skill. Get third party opinions on whether you are boring people to tears every time you open your mouth and develop your skill set to get better at presenting. And include feedback options so that your audience can participate. Yes, that's the key. You want to break down barriers and try and turn that top down meeting where the organizer's the only one talking into a place where you can have a conversation about it. Of course when it's appropriate, time and setting are appropriate, but conversations are the best meetings. You know what else works? Food. Yeah, free food. Well, and and money. Food or money. Yeah, money. I mean, I can definitely share. Or electric. Send food, money, Starbucks, get parts, I can. Food, money, electrical shocks. I want to, you know, it's again, it depends. Ha ha. We prefer reward based systems. Yeah, yeah. Well, half lost stock, you know. That's what I just there in the meeting every every few minutes, ding a bell and then, you know, give people a little. Thank you, sir. May I have another? It's a food, you know, come over your mother. You represent the lollipop guild. Well, it is true, though. It is absolutely true, you know, in the non virtual world when we're in person and we're having meetings and I've done a ton of facilitation stuff. I'm the first person to bring a bag of candy, right? Because it's absolutely true. Like, ask people, answer questions. Throw them a piece of candy, right? We can't do that in the virtual world. And so there is there is some things. There are some things that are different in the way that we facilitate virtually versus facilitating in the real world. But ultimately, Mike's point is, is, you know, taken in terms of if you're going to, if you have good tendencies in a real world meeting, you should pull those over to you. But there are some limitations. There are some limitations to that for sure. Well, and we're joking around around this, but I'm sure this is an important topic. And in fact, I've even with some of the, like the SharePoint Saturdays and other events from time to time, where some of the organizers of those events have offered as a session, like how to present sessions. So if you want to strengthen your skills around presenting, which I think is a great thing. We need more of that out in just community. And so if that's something you need to work on, the other things that you can do, especially within the MVP and RD communities, is if there's somebody that you really like, they're presenting style, generally, RDs and MVPs, we're very approachable. And say, hey, you know, I really like your style around this. I like your style, Mike. There, yeah. But is, you know, you could reach out to them. Any of us would say, you know, sure. You know, hey, like, hey, could you mentor me on this? Can you have a conversation? We'd all, answering for all of us, Mike will probably shake his head, no, he refuses this kind of stuff all the time, but help people within the community to improve their skills and mentor. In fact, a lot of the conferences- I don't know why Mike is so against mentoring, but I guess we'll take that offline. You have to stop because this is gonna go against my MVP award if you keep pushing this narrative. I'll add a smiley into the text. People will know I'm joking. I do know that there's a lot of, well, I don't know a lot of, I've noticed that there are conferences that are offering the ability for new speakers to come in and have a buddy, have somebody who can kind of review their presentation before they do it the first time. And I'm noticing this in user groups, I'm noticing this at conferences. And I think it's really important because there's kind of this thing where you think like you gotta know what you're doing to be able to present. And I think it's fantastic that they're offering these tracks and they're offering these buddy systems and things for people to come in. And we do that in our user group. So we always recommend it. I'll actually go talk to people and be like, hey, if you wanna do this, come. We'll look at your session beforehand. We'll give you some tips and tricks. It's okay if you feel kind of clunky the first couple of times, but I'm really happy to see that people are starting to help with that. Yeah, and user groups are the best place to go in. And that's what it's meant to be for to allow people that are out in industry, in the field that are not professional presenters to come in and share their work and get feedback and start that process. And it just takes practice, it takes time. For most of us, it doesn't come naturally. It's something that we learn that skill over time. I wanna say one word of caution though is like you had mentioned, everybody has their own different style of presenting. And if they've been presenting for a while, depending on who is mentoring you, you don't necessarily, you may wanna do your own thing. Put your own, mix in your own personality. Don't try and mimic the person that you think is the best presenter because they may be the best presenter in your eyes, but they may not be, like Christian is one or two people who think he is, but the rest of the world pretty much just says, we don't need that. Well, that's why there are laws in certain countries because of exactly that. So I'm aware of that. I think this is a very important subject that we've been talking about as we move out of the, how to make a meeting engaging in teams. Yeah. Like for most people, especially in IT, to get up and to talk in front of a room and to be articulate and engaging, it's so contrary to what most of us are by nature, introverted, coding away. So for a traditional technical person to be outgoing, like it's a massive accomplishment. And many of us have presented, and as a courtesy to the person who's got the floor, we all disable or turn off our video cameras. And so the presenter now is just seeing initials across the top of the team screen, and they're talking to the little dot on their monitor for their webcam, and they're just like, they're trying to be engaged with no feedback. And it is so difficult for presenters. So now this is just a thing that I like to do now is make a point of giving feedback during the meeting, not interrupting, not talking, but a thumbs up. Thank you, Mike. And like, I think it's also incumbent upon viewers to help talk, especially when you're an IT person and you're not used to this like I am. Yeah. Well, that's one of the reasons like we just utilized it and we all just have used it now, but the emoticons and the other things throughout to provide that feedback, that's why I love things like having those real-time polling to have the emoticons, the other things, to feel the comments, the chat and the side and share with things. So there's whether you're direct or indirect feedback throughout. So you think about as a marketing guy, I mean, that's why we constantly do things, whether we're for a company or within an industry, research projects where you do polling, you do surveys, you do focus groups, you do like all of those kinds of things to get feedback. Finding out ways to integrate those types of feedback loops into your presentation is a great way to get that level of engagement up. I still think, and again, it's true whether in person or online, it's because I've watched presentations where it's a guy sitting up in front of the room with his face in a laptop, never looking up once, but microphone walking through a very technical demo and it was riveting because of the technology and what they had built and what they were demonstrating. So know your audience, know the room. Read the room. Yeah, and if you're finding that people are, no one's coming on camera, no one's providing feedback around that, being very concise in and being structured in and maybe have a shorter meeting. Well, and you both have a really good point in terms of feedback. I would definitely say also, I really encourage people to be on camera when whatever meetings I'm doing, whatever presentations I'm doing, because Norm, to your point, we try to be kind by going off, but frankly, I would prefer that everybody stays on their camera and we all focus on the content that we're presenting or we can spotlight people for anybody who doesn't know about the spotlight feature. In teams, everybody can be on camera. We can simply spotlight the person that we want to pay attention to and that will kind of keep them at the top of the list. It'll make it so that everybody knows who's talking, but nobody really wants to talk to a blank screen. And so I think that encouraging people giving them the permission to be on camera in this, I know this is a weird topic, right? Because we don't want to get into the discussion of should we force people to be on camera, but I definitely want to provide the encouragement permission for people to be on camera. I do find in my clients that when they're on camera, we tend to have more engaging meetings. We tend to get more done. We tend to be more productive. We build more better relationships as opposed to the clients where we're just simply all talking and all you can see is the letter bubbles. So I think it's a good point, Norm.