 Thank you for coming and please fasten your seatbelts because I think this is going to be a lively one I'm Tom Ricks I'm not going to go through with reading a loud the biographies of the panel because I believe that if you're here You probably know how to read and You can figure out how these people are by looking in your program So we're going to kick it right off and I threw out the entire plan for this panel after dinner last night Because at the dinner Neura Rosen Neura you hear somewhere Well, I hope he shows up Neura Rosen said to me I Believe that the coverage of the war in Syria has been the worst We've had of any modern war much worse than Iraq or Afghanistan And it isn't getting any better. It's getting worse so We're going to kick the panel off by asking someone who's in the middle of covering this Is Neura Rosen right and saying this is the worst covered war in modern memory? We're going to start now with Abdul Aziz Al Hamza. Oh, I'm you're right. I forgot the stinking pole Keep hold that. Okay. I Was supposed I made a note of it. I was told yesterday that we're supposed to do the poll questions and the boss just reminded me In ten years, where do you think are most of all more reporting will come from? a reporters with independent media organizations B reporters with state-sponsored media organizations see individuals with personal technology and social media or D combatants with blogs or other direct outlets You may fire when ready Well, there you go. You guys all just get fired the panels over Okay Abdul Aziz Yes, she's right first if we want to talk about the war in Syria when the Syrian revolution started in March 2011 The first step what the Syrian regime did that he didn't let the media organization International media organization to enter the country and cover their evolution there Even they kicked out most of the media organization who were walking there so they tried to not show what's going on in the city and that the things what The activists the Syrian to be a media man. So When I started to cover the war in Syria, I didn't study any Journalism any media or anything and most of the activists So we didn't get any experience, but the situation there forced us to do other things We started to film by our own mobiles. So District at our regimes. They don't want out the media to be in their lands to show what's going on So all that things forced us to do other things to cover to report to be activists Then citizen journalists and right now there are a lot of Syria and we didn't study any media or any journalism They are professional journalists or media men. They are doing a lot of shows. They are writing in International news paper. So That's what happened there and After the after that the extremism group started to be in Syria and for this is extremism group They don't know and they don't want anyone to film or to report only their own Offices their own media offices because they want to spread their ideology They don't want anyone to show the reality of them the reality of the lives there So they didn't let anyone and if anyone was thinking to cover or to take a photo They will be executed them directly. So it's not easy to work or to do anything So photo or rocket will take you to the dead Now you've been interrogated by both the Syrian government and by ISIS. Is that right? In the in their interrogations, what do they say about media coverage of the war? Yes, they started to ask a lot if I Take any if I talk any photos any videos or anything For them to to walk as activists before the Free Syrian army. It was Not a crime more than that. So maybe they will kill you if you did the things So for them, they were looking for that They are looking for the activists the media men the media centers because before the Free Syrian army Before that we was a say it was up a peaceful protest and they were looking for The activists the media center to shut down this revolution So they asked a lot and even they tortured me to say yes, and I said yes because if If I keep saying no, no, no, no, no, they will be tortured me for 10 15 days Whatever and then they started to ask me who's also working with you So I didn't find anything only to say some names from my mind blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah And fortunately, they didn't tell me tell the names again because I know know how to say it again and For for ISIS Maybe you will not believe they were so cute with me So they asked me to come three or four times to their main headquarters And they started to ask me some questions. So you are an activist a media man. So Walking with you in the media center. I told them they are friends we met before and Most of we met in the revolution and we were working in next names So we don't know each other and they started a lot. They tried a lot. They brought to me coffee, coke, whatever Brian Okay, we will take you to cover some clashes. I thought no I'm fine I don't know they tried a lot. So for them that wasn't the beginning So they were not that far like right now. So they tried a lot and they started to ask me, okay What about this guy? What about these guys? I heard that he went to Turkey and he's There are some American European Western organization are training them as it's right. Did they get any Equimates any laptops or that thing? So it was a crime to deal with any Western or European American organization. So for them, they tried a lot to shut down all these media centers any Any activity inside the city? Vivian Salama has the unique Qualification of being the only person in the world who went from covering the war in Iraq to the American presidential campaign What we call from the frying pan into the Trump Vivian your perspective what has the war in? Syria and more broadly the fighting generally across the Middle East has the coverage deteriorated notably and Is it actually bad coverage of wars now? I wouldn't call it the worst coverage And I you know, we were speaking about this earlier. I would definitely call it the hardest War to cover just based on accessibility, but I mean there are some really brilliant people that have covered Syria They're very brave people covering Syria some of them in the audience here And so, you know a tremendous respect to them also, I you know for me The most important thing that I want everyone to remember every single day is the sacrifice that the locals are making People like Abdul Aziz, but also some of our staffers, you know, we have news organization We is a major news organizations. We rely so much on locals. They make a huge sacrifice I can leave Iraq a lot of them can't I you know people can leave Syria others cannot and so those people every single day Are making a sacrifice to report on the news and they are taking a tremendous risk Every single day to do that and so they do a very very good job But unfortunately they are they have a lot of limitations, you know Abdul Aziz was just talking about one of his confrontations With the militants and you know, that's a reality every single day And so that is also one of the reasons that it becomes very very challenging But definitely, you know, these people know what they're talking about and they do do a tremendous effort to do that And to bring us the news every day I mean, there's definitely an issue that's taking place right now as far as how we get the news from some of these militant held areas And you know for me, I you know my my strength wasn't really Syria as much as Iraq But you know, it's the same situation in Iraq where you have a third maybe a little bit less now But a third of the country basically in militant hands and anyone who has gone into that territory, you know It takes a basically a huge risk of not coming back And so we have to rely a lot of times on locals That are there and who are basically working, you know Anonymously to to help us understand what's happening in the beginning We used to have to deal with making phone calls all the time to militant held territory But then that got very very difficult because they shut down the phone signals They shut down the internet in some areas And so we started to even not be able to reach people not to mention the fact that people became too afraid to talk And so, you know, all of these things in general obviously Complicate matters, but at the end of the day, you know, there are still people who Who have taken the risk who do go into these areas who do have the contacts both with Locals just residents living there civilians and also with the militants even that they're able to kind of gather information And make some informed reporting do some informed reporting based on that And so when that's basically just my two cents on it is that, you know There is some very smart reporting out there. You obviously have to pick and choose, you know Fact from fiction sometimes because unfortunately, it's very hard to determine. We can't physically be there Okay, the army chief of staff Referred to Harvard this morning as the number two Institution I was pleased because of course I went to the number one Which is Yale I assume he was he went to number three Here we have someone from Harvard is going to explain it all Yeah, so I'm not sure that Syria is the worst covered war currently. I think Yemen is because it's not being covered And that to me is as much of an issue It's not just the number of journalists there or but how we allow sort of the dictates of what's going on in US policy Determining journalism what we cover. So where is the coverage of the war in Yemen? It's certainly not because we don't have US involvement there. It's not because of casualties It's not because of the potential implications So it goes beyond Syria. I guess you could say every war is the worst covered But it's also where we're covering and how we determine what the coverage is and Finally to serving US Army officer Joe Briarley a proud scout Which is what they call cab guys, I guess and I Want you to answer the question in this context Is the coverage bad because? No one cares at least in this country anymore. What happens to war coverage when the American people don't give a damn Yeah, it's a it's a great question Tom I think whenever you have a large investment in something you're really interested in that investment and There's you know myself and a lot of my servings brothers and sisters are not over there And so I think right now because of that the American people aren't that interested and what unfortunately What's going on in Syria? And I think a lot of that drives the coverage of the war Are the microphone people up and running Okay, I just want to make sure we have the mics available at this point I don't want to go to questions, but I do want to offer the chance If I know there are some reporters here who have covered the war in Syria and covered it pretty damn well This is a chance for you guys to jump in here. Are you a Syria war person? Okay, hold on one second mics are traveling in your direction And also is nearer did nerve ever show up and I know we have at least one other Syria war reporter here If you're here, and you want to speak Fire away Okay Please stand up and I do yourself. I'm Janine DiGiovanni. I'm the Middle East editor of Newsweek And I actually just wanted to ask a question of Vivian and Aziz I've also written a book about Syria, and I've been covering war for more than 25 years. So For me Syria is the most difficult war to cover And thank you for mentioning Yemen. I think you're absolutely right. I just got a visa to Yemen But really what I want to ask you is how do we keep reporting this and how do we use local reporters? How do we combine it if we can't actually do the field work because in places like Bosnia or Chechnya or Somalia Where I've worked before we could it was always dangerous. It's never not been dangerous But we could just rock up to a frontline or to a commander in bed with rebel forces in Sierra Leone or Liberia We it's we can do that Syria, but it's much harder So I'd like to ask especially Vivian who was the bureau chief in Iraq How could we use local reporters and incorporate it with our own work and make sure we're still doing Fair and objective So first we want to talk about the local So to let the local walk is not easy So as I mentioned first time if you will take a photo in Iraq, it will take you to the death So even a normal photo for yourself not to the media or to not to anyone They ice is bred allows checkpoints to shake the mobile phones laptops whatever So even it's not easy to the local to walk or to cover or to do some anything But for sure it's easier than a foreign one because in Syria after 50 years of the war there are a lot of extremism group a lot of Army groups and the foreign it's For them the foreign it means a big amount of money So if any foreign reporters will go there they will arrest him asking for money because most of this group are looking for money And they know that this Reborter that we will ask his government to pay million dollar or whatever to release him So it's not easy to any reporter to go there Especially these days because started to be so complicated and even for the local there are a lot of activists have been arrested by Several groups. So it's not easy even to them to walk. So First in the first two years of the senior revolution, it was so easy to walk in the liberate liberated area So if there is any liberated area areas under free Syrian control, it's so easy And there were a lot of reporters they came to a Libyan countryside to homeless to these cities to go to cover the war there So right now to let this local work it's not easy because the internet connection is really so bad and It's different from a city to another and it depends which groups are controlling the city So if we want to talk about rocker, there are only four internet coffee shops These four internet coffee shops are controlled by ISIS and it's not allowed to any civilian to have his own internet in his house And I says started to get a car would kind of rather just to monitor the signals So if there is any Wi-Fi you're out there or if there is any satellite net So there is no mobile networks There isn't it's so hard to get access to internet or to transfer information or to do anything So they tried a lot in the same time. They brought cameras all over the city to catch anyone who was trying or taking to take these Photos, it's the same not the same less than that in the senior gym areas They are doing the same so they have a lot of jails out of Syrians enter these jails and they get out killed so It's not easy, but there is a way In some areas some cities to lead this local war But there are a lot of problem is what most of them they can't speak English So they should do it in Arabic then to find translator and some of them That let's say some of them they have their own ideology So they will report from what he's wanted to report. So if he has Islamic ideology So he will not to report against Islamic group. So and if he is with the Freesian army So he will not report anything against the Freesian army So it's so complicated to fight in the bent local journalists How many of your friends and colleagues have been killed? Fighting or covering the war in Syria. So in our group Four of our friends have been killed and six. They are family members. Some friends are linking to us Thanks for the question Jean. So, I mean you have these situations where you have to consider The safety of your staff obviously You know that is always a priority for us and definitely at the AP but I know other news organizations as well You know, I would always because I was the bureau chief and I had to sort of give make the call of as far as safety and everything like that You know, my take was always it's not worth it get out You know, we had situations where you know, we had reporters in militant held cities who there was just a slight Suspicion there was a rumor that they might be working for a news organization that may not be Arab and Based on that people started talking They felt like they had to get out but some of them just want to get paid they they they're afraid that if they flee They're not going to get paid their families are not going to be able to eat and it's already so hard to Get any kind of cash flow going in these cities You know the economy is virtually stopped in places like Mosul and whatever and so it becomes really difficult And so you have these situations is also hugely unpredictable where they want to flee But now it's really difficult because you have to put your house up for collateral if you try to flee a lot of these Militant held cities and so they're afraid they're going to lose their houses And so they're totally torn between how do you get out and how do you stay how do you report the news? And how do you keep your family safe? We had a situation where one of our reporters in a militant held city tried to escape and you know again It's totally unpredictable. So he tried to escape to take his family to cook where it's safe He got stopped at a checkpoint the guy started to have suspicions about him It turned into a really ugly debate and you know He calls me up from the from the road and he says oh well I got out and I said well, how'd you do it? He goes well, I almost got killed. I said well, but what what happened? He says well, you know the the guy stopped me at the checkpoint He started yelling at me started pushing at me and in the middle of the fight where I thought okay It's over. He's going to execute me because he thinks that I'm fleeing something and he got suspicious He's like I smelled cigarettes on his breath and I'm like cigarettes, but it's banned in Milton health territory He goes ha ha ha so he goes to the back of his car And he pulls out a packet a pack of cigarettes that he got from a smuggler took a huge risk He could have gotten his hands chopped off I mean that's supposedly the rule gives the guy the pack of cigarettes he lets him go and so you know These guys they know how to operate much better than any of us would but they're also taking a huge risk And so he did manage to get out, but that's one case We have a lot of situations where they're not so fortunate and so you have to just I mean We tried to pull out a lot of our reporters early on in the process Just to but a lot of them chose to stay they chose to stay to defend their cities They chose to stay to report on what's happening on their cities to make money to for their families Some of them have evacuated their families, but they stay So I mean I don't know if that answers your question, but it's really there's no rule for it. We're just trying to Yeah Sure sure and I mean what she said was it's really the more dilemma of how do you protect your people? But another problem that I saw for managers newsroom managers in Iraq Was to have an effective staff you had to have both people Comfortable operating in Shi'at areas and Sunni areas that meant you had Shia and Sunnis young men generally Sitting side by side working together I remember when I was at the wash and I posed our bureau chief Rajiv I ended up putting up a sign in our Baghdad newsroom. No sectarian t-shirts allowed I mean this is people you couldn't come in. We're having, you know, your mucktauter t-shirt on that day and stuff like that But the Iraqi staff did unite against the American staff. Yes smoking is allowed And boy do they smoke I want to go to you two at the end here because we're getting into the question of narrative and who controls it Everybody in the military discovered the word narrative the last few years you've got to control the narrative battle for the narrative Well, we're actually the people who write narrative for a living Does that mean that Journalists are now participants in the battlefield to be worked on manipulated and Some organizations believe killed if necessary Joe Sharon Well, I don't think journalists control the narrative or if we do we're not doing a very good job We're in an election cycle where the narrative is refugees and that is guiding the narrative It's cutting the narrative on the wars and how we're reporting on them So I I wish I had a better answer. I don't know how journalists can somehow take control of the narrative or push in a different direction I wish I did Maybe you have a better answer No, I don't and I agree with you I don't think you can control the narrative. You can just contribute to it and that's why You know, I saw on the the survey that we took That 10% of the folks in here think that reporting will come from those On the ground and last year it's it's crazy that i'm sitting up here with you all of you in a suit because last year I was on leave and I was watching this conference in pajama pants Eating a bowl of cheerios and One of the things that happened some of the comments that were made last year critiques About the military was was our failure to think strategically our failure to to adapt and our failure to work with civilian leadership And our voice was absent from that our voice was absent from that narrative And so shortly after that connected with folks through twitter and the military writers guild and within five days We had put together and mobilized a group of writers from the the navy the air force The marine corps even our friends over in the australian defense force and through a great publication the strategy bridge Had a professional discussion about preparing leaders for the future of war and the folks that participated in that conversation Were the junior to mid-grade officers and nco's people that will be senior leaders So I don't think you control the narrative But I think it's important that from a military standpoint that we participate in the narrative But if the narrative goes in a direction The military doesn't like How does the military change that narrative? I I don't think we can the narrative is based off of actions It's based off reality and it's based off the interpretation of events And like sharon said those are things that you cannot you cannot control What other trends do you foresee you Group of four people with very different perspectives see out there That will shape the future of war coverage Will it all be social media tweeting back and forth? For me, yes, so right now the social media that are doing the most of the work If we want to talk about Syria where I came from so most of the International media organization they got their news from the activists from the media centers because they can't go there And some of them they got it from a little bit they got it from the Syrian regime local channels and from the russian channels because they are allowed to cover there And the problem that the most of the news which which are coming from the regime side or russian media It's not true. So and there are some international organizations They got this news from the russian and the Syrian regime. So it's a problem that All these were special in the mealy in the middle east. So it's not easy to go and report because Every report has right now who are thinking to go there He will think about his life because 90 or 80 percent he will be killed or kidnapped or whatever So the social media will play the main rule in the next Years to say in the war covering or war reporting and the good thing that Right now especially in the middle east. There are a lot of citizen journalists who can do all that things and there is In my in my opinion, it's a good thing that if there is any arab one who can enter. So it's But yeah, she can't speak arabic So it's easy to her to enter Syria because if she got any trouble she will speak in arabic And that's it But if you can't speak arabic most of the people that they can't speak english So you can't take yourself out from this problem. So for arabic borders at Less hard than From the one who's who can't speak arabic. So But that's the social media will play the main rule My friend anthony shadeed spoke arabic and wound up dead On the turkish-ssyrian border. Are there any other western reporters? Who stand out as having done a good job in syria? Yes, they are there are there were some of them. They can enter in ante 2012 over First month of 2013 and after that they couldn't so I met some of them in syria. There is beat. There is beta who To I forgot their names. They are two french journalists who came to raka and they Got arrested by ISIS and they released them. So they were so nice They and I met I didn't meet and I read some articles to Some journalists who came to alibo count to alibo countryside. They do a great job there For us as a syrian when we started we didn't think more than arabic channels So even we didn't think to rebuttal to do or to deal with international or a western american media So when I when I was working in a media center in the first 2011 So we got an a message on our In our facebook page our media center for a facebook page and we didn't think to Play or to answer because we for us are only the arabic channel But after that everything changed we thought that the international media will change something They will make some version of their governments but Nothing Vivian, who are your go-to journalists of any sort sources? Right now and I say over the last year For looking at syria and the larger middle east Oh, one of them sitting in the audience ronnie episode. So she's she's a fantastic ronnie if you want to talk you're welcome Yeah, I mean I think I think she I actually think not because she's my friend She's one of the best journalists on syria. I think there are some really talented journalists That's why I argued that it's not the worst covered. It's just hard to cover You know, I mean ronnie has taken great risk to to do the reporting that she's done as have a couple of others But um, I mean it's it's not easy. It's not easy and and you know, you were talking about trends earlier If you asked me what the trends are it's that there's no money in the business and you have People who are freelancers who you know are struggling to find funding to do the work um You know sometimes have these phenomenal reports that they do which they do on their own dime often And they find it hard to sell because long form is not uh, you know as popular as it used to be I mean, you know, it's hard to tell a really in-depth good story in 140 characters And I'm I'm exaggerating obviously, but you know and and even people with staff jobs Like, you know, I I've been a freelancer for a very long time And I finally got a staff job and then you have budget constraints at at larger news organizations and so That impacts security impacts your ability to just turn out stories and unfortunately, you know when you have budget constraints you can't Be in the places you want to be in and a lot of times you end up being forced to Write these stories on the phone and I'm sorry, but no matter how good of a journalist you are You can tell a story that's been written through phone calls versus a story that's been reported In person and so that is obviously changing the nature of how we report these stories But there still are I argue still very good journalists who are covering these wars Um, maybe they're getting fewer and fewer and so maybe you call that being the worst covered war But I I I just you know, it's it's uh, it's definitely a symptom of what the business is going through too Ronnie, did you want to jump in here? Okay, mic microphone to Ronnie if you stand up they'll see you Thank you. Thank you very much. Um, my name is Ronnie Epozade and I've been covering Syria since 2011 As well as Iraq and other places in the Middle East for about a decade before that God knows I'd never speak for near rosin because you know, he can speak for himself but I think that what he meant and it's something that we've discussed is perhaps the over reliance on social media in a in a very difficult time conflict where it's Life threatening to cover Syria. Um, you know social media is only ever snippet. It's a very short moment in time and We need to view it like that and there might be a bit of an over reliance on it We have to understand what came before and what comes after it and we also have to understand that Social media is for the most part something that somebody wants us to see And our role as journalists is to cover everything else. So, um, you know with with regard to Syria We're seeing a lot of that. We're also um taking things from activists who with my deepest respect are activists Who have an agenda as well? So all of these things have to be considered when we look at Covering Syria and perhaps that is um An element of what near meant when he says that it's um, you know One of the worst. I wouldn't say it's one of the worst But there are certainly questions in terms of how we do what we do and social media is key As long as you have the mic in your hand, what trends were you or do you see shaping War coverage right now and for the future Retrenchment In in the industry, I mean, you know, mclachie has shuttered all of its foreign bureaus for example So the number of outlets that are um taking our work is simply shrinking and it's very dangerous when um, you know We're a future of war conference You want to talk about the future of war while it's our job to inform you about what's happening on the ground So that you can make informed decisions about the future of war and foreign policy So um from that perspective in terms of information, it's terrifying that um The number of outlets are shrinking as vivian said, uh, you know the ability to do long form to really Explain the context, which is what anthony should eat used to do so well It's not just about the event and what's happening. It's about what it means and you know, you have to um Understand the place you have to understand the language if you can and not just the uh be Linguistically fluent but also culturally fluent historically fluent to understand the significance of what it is that you're seeing It's funny when you were talking about studying journalism. I thought no no no Don't study journalism study cultures and languages That's the best tools a journalist in the field can have sharon. You're looking skeptical Do you want to talk about trends narrative retrenchment? You know the people who got a couple years ago that citizen journalists were going to replace traditional journalism It just hasn't come true. There's more voices. There's more sources, but there's a larger and greater need For journalists for professional journalists in the field and that is a shrinking field So yeah, the predictions from a few years ago that we would have citizen journalists just hasn't been born out People still want context. They still want the bigger picture Okay, it's that time in the festivities when we go to questions In this case, I think I'm willing to entertain also Responses denunciations and more comments from experienced people in the field We have some wandering microphones. If you would hold up your hand. I see lieutenant colonel bob bateman ready to fire Yes, uh, bob bateman You america now 25 years as an infantryman and strategist and now with esquire So I kind of straddle the line Um So a hundred years ago journalism moves a lot different William Randolph Hearst tells his reporter in cuba you supply the story out supply the war And pullets are feeling so guilty about his role in yellow journalism, which was at the time extremely biased Depending upon the outlook of the paper Felt so guilty that he founded a prize that tom knows about So that was a hundred that was only a little over a hundred years ago Uh, and now we've got a professional ethic within journalism About accountability your sources the concerns that rena has and we all have about relying on social media And people with agendas and so forth But the survey showed everybody thinks that in ten or twenty years Most the news is going to be coming from People with twitter accounts or whatever the next big app is So my question to all of you is What are we going to do to They created the columbia school of journalism to create a profession of journalism And an ethic of journalism as it appears in the united states not so much in england you buy your newspaper there based upon your politics Well, what do you think do we need to change journalism? Or do we need to educate the population about how to be more skeptical readers or combination of both I'm gonna throw this open to the panel Don't be shy I feel like i've spoken too much, but i'll go ahead um I I think journalism is in crisis. I mean my friend just said it and I say it again I think I think that the business is having is suffering from an identity crisis at the moment You have social media Which guides so much of what happens day to day in communications day to day But that's not sort of the type of information that we want to base our journalism on And it's it's what a lot of people do I you know, but unfortunately it's it's not It's a very good tool and especially in Situations where accessibility is a problem, but again like rania pointed out, you know The obvious obvious that people that you're talking to and especially if you're communicating with activists and whatnot I mean there is a bias that you have to be cognizant of And so you have to be careful about where you get your information If you're using social media to communicate with people you don't know who's on the other end a lot of times You know, they can say who you know, they can say they're someone but they might be someone else and so that's not Unfortunately, that's been a very guide like large force and what journalism has become And it it shouldn't be that way. I mean nothing can substitute a face-to-face interaction ground reporting that you know That is not a hundred years ago and today. It's the same situation the same outcome the same result And when you try to substitute that then the business suffers and that's just the latest anybody else want to jump in on this Okay I'll give you the answer Bob journalism is not a profession No, it's not We know what the professions are that they are military religion medicine Law and academia. They have rules. They are internally governed. They have high barriers to entry Journalism has none of these things for a good reason It's a much more democratic Thing it's a craft And it's best learned in the field and best done in the field But to think that this profession is to just go down the totally wrong street And to think that you go to colombia a journalism school makes you a reporter No, it makes you somebody who has one more useless ivy league degree question We'll go to a first first you and then you So, uh, i'm jim mccormick. I don't have an affiliation here, but uh, we just listen to eric toller Tell us about the power of open source and you spent 18 months and pulled out a few very interesting facts How does that apply to to your day-to-day life? Does that scale is it even at all practical to what you do? I'm sorry. I was so busy doing a microphone direction. I didn't catch the question I was curious how the story that eric toller just gave us about tracking down open source Some some very relevant information But the the scale of information that he got and the effort it took to get to it I'm just curious if that has any practical place in reporting on hard-to-get areas Even if we do overcome the the constraints on the communication those little tidbits of biased or in an unintended Information whether it's over a phone call or a photograph that's inadvertently posted on the internet Is is there a point where we'll be able to tap into that information and recover the ground that we've lost in these areas Sharon that sounds like one made perfectly for you Maybe I mean open source is like anything. It's a source of information. There's bias in that It's you know, I think there's been great reporting that's been done from open source But it's not it's not the end all be all I think there's been a lot of mistakes in open source reporting And it's the same thing probably true in the intelligence community and it's the same thing true in journalism I I I don't know that journalism is a Maybe it's not a traditional profession, but it has developed over the decades certain ethics certain barriers to entry So I actually kind of disagree with what you said it is a profession self-defined perhaps An open source for a profession that get paid Because you'd be able to lobby and control the market because anybody here from MIT who's worked in the middle east have a question I'm an associate professor of political science at MIT I spent some time in the countrieside in late 2012 when it was still accessible. This is a question for Abdulaziz I'm just curious to know about the other narrative the ISIS narrative and the whether you saw their type of journalism on the ground And to what degree there was any collusion with syrian citizens supporting them And how do you still get your information now that you're out? And not close First I'll talk about the information how we get it out. So as I told you that the ISIS Close order internet cafe shop then they let for to work and they spread cameras checkpoints other things They don't want any activists anyone to do any media work inside the city They want only their media office to spread their ideology So it's so hard to walk over there. So we found our own way The good thing that we all of us we are from this city. So we know every meter. So And sometimes we knew how to get some information from ISIS In some ways. So we knew about all that rules before they did it So we found a way to transfer to transfer information So we found three ways until now the first way is still walking and we have other two ways So even if they will cut the internet, we have ways to transfer information It's so hard because it's not it's so hard to transfer the information videos photos because this way it's really so hard. So and the asses To transfer or to send it It's also to not that easy and at the same time the encrypt Encryption stuff. It's so important. So It took a time to develop our own applications to transfer the information Okay, our panel members will be around if you want to follow up and buttonhole them Please join me in thanking our panel of craftsmen