 Good afternoon everyone Thank you all so much for coming to this panel about education inside prison and post release My name is Mary Weir and I am a faculty member here in the Criminal Justice Department at Highline And I think we will probably have a couple more people coming in after they finish up lunch But I wanted to go ahead and get started with the panel because we have a bunch of Current and alumni from Highline who are going to be talking about their experiences with education inside prison and post release Before we get to the panel though I just wanted to mention a couple of reasons why Education inside prison is so important. So we know that folks who Get an education inside prison are about 43 percent less likely to recidivate over the course of three years So it's a really important thing to ensure that our communities are more safer that we provide education inside prison We also know that education can help Be personally transformational for individuals. We know that it can help with communication And that it actually lowers the rate of violent incidences within prisons so in the 1990s there was some research done at an Indiana women's prison and They reported about a 75% drop in violent incidences within the prison when folks were Going to school So there's lots of different reasons for why education is so important and hopefully we'll be able to hear from you all And maybe I'll just let my co-facilitator introduce herself and then we can go ahead and get started So good afternoon everybody and thank you for being here, so thank you for showing up and being present And I wanted to take the time to acknowledge that you're here for a reason So thank you. My name is Michelle McClendon, and I am the reentry advisor here at Highline College And I'm excited because one of People that are on our panels is JJ and JJ actually is the one who helped Actually started with this with the reentry program here, and then once he graduated then we took off from there And he's been with us and it's been amazing every since so thank you all for being here Okay, so the first question for our panelists is could you please introduce yourself and describe your educational journey And including any sort of future educational goals. I'm Rachel. Is this on can you hear me? Okay? Okay My name is Rachel About my educational journey so when I Went to prison. I Didn't Know of any opportunity When I was there, I didn't get a college education, but I joined a program called the track program. It's vocational training It's an acronym that stands for trades related apprenticeship coaching because I Didn't think that I was gonna have much opportunity outside of prison So I thought I was gonna most likely have to join a trade But is what that program did for me is There was a lot of classroom a lot of homework and it sparked something in in me where I felt like I could I could really do whatever I wanted. So as soon as I was released I I was kind of in the middle Was I going to join a union or was I going to go to school? So I basically Applied to both and the orientations fell in the same week and then that week I decided that I was going to go to Highline and Yeah Yeah And that's where everything really took off for me it was I mean being a part of this campus it was really good for me and and Not only was I going to school, but I was doing really well in school I was getting really good grades and and like I had never done anything like that before my life You know like I know when I got looked at my high school transcript like it was not good You know like I when I like tested to get placed into Classes, you know also not not very good, but once I started and I started growing I was doing really well I eventually applied to University of Washington Tacoma and I got in early admission and now I'm currently In the middle of my bachelor's degree In criminal justice Hello, my name is Dara Keele. I spent a total of three years in prison and During that time I had had time to do so I had to figure something else to do with my time other than Trying to get in shape and work out and whatnot. That's like the the cliche thing to do so I had time to do but I wanted to spend it wisely and While it's going through my trial my lawyer told me about education programs in the prison and that I should seek that because I Really didn't care for like none of the gang or other activities where you go to make you learn more skills to do more something to harm the community so I focused on education and That helped me meet with other people that were going they were in the system as well but they were trying to learn something new or something different because people naturally have like this Need to want to know how things work or how things operate and stuff like that but I think that's what education is is giving people an opportunity to learn something new and It connected me with these people that They were in the prison, but we were all there But when we were inside the education program, it wasn't a prison. It was just like any other classroom It didn't matter where the location was learning with what was important so I got a lot of that from there and I Spent about 10 months at Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla. That's where they sent the Green River killer People who have the death penalty and such When you're going through jail, they say walla walla it's like everybody's like I don't want to go to walla walla It's kind of a funny saying if you've ever been in jail, you hear that a lot So I went there and you know with all that stuff in my head I was like I didn't know what to expect, but I was in camp, which is a minimum security and Walla Walla for being the bad reputation that it had it also has the best education program of the system available in Washington State They have welding it takes two years So if you have like three years or something you can get your welding degree from there And you can easily get a job after you get out but for me I enrolled in CNC machining and One of the amazing thing that happened in that is the instructor. His name was Rob Walker he was already Teaching at Columbia Basin College, and he was 15 year professor there, and he also created programs for CNC machining like setting up the schedule of the classes and how the class would run in the topics you would cover and It was amazing to me that He was supposed to hire the person that was going to take that job But he couldn't find any else better to do the job and For him it was getting boring for him at Columbia Basin So he wanted to change his environment a little bit and I don't know what was going on in his head But he chose to go do that prison job and I'm very happy that he did because it taught me a lot and he helped me realize that I could do a lot more and Try to go after my potential versus what I was doing just to survive or support myself before I went into prison But after I got out I basically came back to Highline. I started here in 2000. Whoo. Yeah, that's a long time ago Like I'm 36 now. So I started here when I was 17 I dropped out and last because I didn't know what I was doing like prison in school was kind of like the same thing If you want to think about it like that It's a weird way to look at it But to me like some people would ask me where have you been the last few years? I would say I was at a school for like hard knocks and It was an all-guy school One way to look at it But you know when you first go to school you don't have direction unless you got like guidance or whatever Why I went to prison I didn't have any guidance I was lost and the hardest thing was finding the programs that were available once that gets set in we start to meet people and That's the same way it is in school as well If you don't go out meet the people it's very hard for you to succeed and Those are the same skills that I take with me and I'm graduating basically this year and Transferring over to Seattle you to do mechanical engineering and hopefully everything will work out and you know after I get my degree I plan to do more panel stuff like this to try to get back and maybe tell my story like We don't have too much time because there's a lot to the story, but thank you guys Seems like a lot of y'all are sitting way back there You could come up if you want I don't want to make you come up But you could come get a little closer and have more of a discussion Yeah, bring it up front, you know Come on up. Yeah, that's right. That's what we're doing is community bridging them gaps and everything so Thank you all for coming up. I appreciate you moving in and it just felt like you all was way too far away from me I see Steve all the way back is that Steve all what's up? So my name is James Jackson But you could call me JJ. That's what everybody calls me. I am a formerly incarcerated student in my senior year at the Evergreen State College but It's good to be back here because I transferred from from Highline College To Evergreen and this at this campus of this school is Why I am where I'm at today. So for me, you know education Ended in like the ninth grade. It really ended like in the seventh grade. Really. I don't know I don't know how I got to the ninth grade, right? and You know, eventually I found my way to prison. I was 36 years old before I went to prison And when I got to prison, I didn't have a GED or anything like that I didn't have any kind of skills no trade or anything All I knew how to do was hustle and Party and so, you know that caught up to me though that that took a toll on my life. And so I Was in the federal system and I was originally in a low security prison in Safford, Arizona up in the high desert up there. There's no federal prisons in Washington State We do have an detention center, but we don't have it. So they ship you out. And so While I was there they have prison industry jobs, right and to get a better pay grade You had to have a GED, right? And so that's why I went to get a GED I was really I was really scared of education. I didn't believe that I could learn right because it had been so long And so I took the GED class. I got my GED and Miss Henderson And so one thing is I remember pivotal people in my life and Miss Henderson my GED teacher was one of them And so Miss Henderson said JJ You got some high scores. You need to so they had a Program with Eastern Arizona College I've got to leave that so they were teaching a business program on the campus And there were some electives so Miss Henderson was like JJ. You should go check out some of these college classes, right? And I Was like I'm not here for that Miss Henderson. I'm here to get this money So I don't have to ask my family for anything and I'm here to get on this way pile That's what I'm here for but Miss Henderson was super persistent and she kept calling me to her office, right? And so eventually I was like well, I ain't got nothing better to do. I might as well take a couple classes I'll try out so I tried out cultural anthropology and Marketing 100 and so I did that and like my man right here was saying is the classroom environment You know, it's you're in a classroom The instructors were from Eastern Arizona College and they came to the prison and taught and so It was it was fantastic, right? And what I found out is that I could learn and that I was pretty smart And so I 4.0 in both of those classes the thing was though I still had other work to do. I was still broken mentally and spiritually and so I had to deal with that and so what happened was I ended up getting in a fight and I got transferred to Victorville, California To a disciplinary yard. There was like a medium high and over there. They don't really have nothing for you It's all the gangs. It's all the race politics. It's all that stuff happening there And I was still on some BS, right? And so I Was fighting and stuff and I was sitting back in the hole and like they said Jackson we got another stop for you and they were talking about the USP and Over there all the fighting stuff is off and go into a cell with another man with a knife And whoever comes out comes out. So I knew if I went there. I wasn't gonna make it home either way and so I Actually felt to my knees and surrendered there and started doing that work That enabled me right to get right in my heart to get right in my mind in the middle of that chaos Right and here's something you know a lot of people have these misconceptions about us in prison They think we're a bunch of animals in there, but we're your fathers We're your mothers where your sisters where your brothers where your cousins where your uncles were people, right? We're complex people who aren't only their last worst mistake, right? We have lives We have love we have all these different things, right? And so Once those men in there see me start trying to change they they left me alone and supported me in that right? And so I had to do all that work before I could do anything else But that see for education was planted for me And so one of the things I did when I was in there is I got super fit, right and some of the men were like JJ how'd you do that? And I said come on let's go and I'd show my trainer and they're like you should be a personal fitness trainer I knew I wanted to go to school. I knew I liked training. So I Started researching degrees in personal fitness and when I got out though They didn't have like education reentry navigators and stuff like they do today But I had a cousin who worked at the Goodwill Education and Training Center in downtown Seattle And he said hey yo cuz come down here and check out some of these classes, right? And so I went down there and they had a college 101 class which was basically college navigation and I got to give a big shout out to Goodwill because They helped me find Highline through that they helped me do what so about the FAFSA finding a school Register, you know, they walked me through all that and they even paid for my first quarter of school down there So big ups to Goodwill. They even bought me a laptop And so through that program though I found Highline College and then the AAS in personal fitness program here a big shout out to Tim We ain't here Tim Vagan if you know Tim And so I did that program and I Decided I wanted to keep it pushing and go through us through the next summer And so I went into workforce where Michelle and I used to work for a minute when I was working with her over there And Robin Rickens was the counselor there And I and so one thing about me is I don't live in shame and guilt and I stand on my story, right? And so I Talked to Robin and she's like JJ you should be in and student leadership and I was like I said I'm kind of old and they're kind of square over there, right? And it wasn't that I didn't want to work with people that are squares It was because I didn't feel like I fit in right but I had met a person here Pa Oaksman Joe He was the Student body president the year. Oh, yeah. I was by the way. I was student body president So Pa Pa had been working in student leadership and I walked out of that interview I actually met pot the bus stop and I was helping him work on his core That's how we became friends, right? And I told him he said he said what's on your mind JJ I told him he said man do it do it and so I did it and to make a long story short I got my first job at the intercultural center and that's where student government when Richelle was vice president who's right here my partner Richelle, right? She was vice president that year and they came to me and they said hey We'd be the face of post-secondary education for inmates for for Highline on the state level for wax and all that And so I did that and it was because of that work That I'm sitting here in front of you today going into student government and student leadership Was the best thing the best choice I ever made and it added so much value to my education, right? And so now I'm at I'm at Evergreen I'm graduating here on june 14th, but when I got to evergreen We put together the justice involved student group. I'm trying to hurry. I feel like I'm taking. Am I taking too much time? Keep going okay, so we we put together justice involved student group and through work with our community partners We became the first four-year school to get funding from the department of corrections for a reentry navigator, right? And so I got a backup a little bit We also came together with We put a committee together here to bring the program that michelle told you about to this school And michelle is now doing the work and she's awesome And yeah, anyway, so Um So now I'm the education reentry navigator At evergreen, right? I'll move into that position full-time here after I graduate And so for anybody student leadership Add so much value to your education You actually can build your resume While you're going to school, right? And then when you graduate you actually have transferable skills, right? And so I I promote student leadership to anybody but really especially the formerly incarcerated people Because one of one of the people I worked with Marta hi Marta Sorry sidetrack Um, I worked with Marta at the Center for Leadership and Service Marta's awesome. Y'all go go see her if you want to Go up there And so Anyway, that's what's up I'm gonna go ahead and and pass the mic because I got a little bit off track But education um has changed my life and given me hope and belief in myself My name is louis irrick. I'm a student here at eye line This is uh, this is my graduating quarter This has been uh, it's been a journey. Um, I didn't even graduate high school. Uh, I didn't I didn't uh things because we're kind of rough back then and You know just coming out of a broken home uh abuse of father And I just didn't I didn't know how to deal with life the right way Um, but I had a good I had a Marine Corps recruiter that kind of looked out for me Um, and even though even though I didn't graduate from high school Um, he gave me a waiver and just and helped me in the Marine Corps to to deal with myself and And get out of the situation that I was in And uh, even even going through that, uh, you know, you still there's you don't learn How to deal with certain issues all all the right way and develop other habits um And so coming out of combat and come becoming a civilian. I just I didn't deal with things the right way again and um And I and I heard a lot of people through it It's You know, there's no there is no pretty crying. There's no good crying You know hurt people hurt people and if we don't learn how to deal with our issues in a healthy way We end up causing more pain And and and we're trying to come against that And we're trying to create healing an atmosphere of healing where we're not Perpetuating crime or perpetuating more hurt But with that we can we can have forgive and we can heal and move on and have a better community for it um I didn't even when I got out of prison. I didn't even know I could I could go to education I didn't really have much education in prison because I I was told it wasn't available for me Um, the gi bill I told that all my benefits. I told that that wasn't for me um Looking back on it and and with the people that I that I've talked to now. They told me that that was all lie um and So my my education was actually going to the library and checking out books And reading and and being proactive in myself Um, because sometimes that's what it takes. We have to learn and we have to we have to be motivated within ourselves We don't have that motivation within ourselves. Then we're just going through the road going through the motions um But but each one of us doesn't matter if you you you have a crime or are affected by crime or if you just Um, you just have a lot of good things having a goal is is important having a vision for your life is important And uh, and that's kind of where I started developing a vision for myself um for for my future and not everything was clear right away, but But things become clear the more you the more you step and walk in that direction the more clarity will come from it And uh, and the people you meet along the way are amazing Everybody has talked about the support that that have got them where they are right now And I wouldn't be here without the support that I had there's a lieutenant colonel Roy Tyler lieutenant colonel that just took me under his wing as I got out And and when I said I don't have I can't go to school He says no you can go to school and he's telling me who to talk to who to write to and and and just and the doors started opening and um I asked around as I was coming out like in the community It's when I was opening a bank account When I was when I was going to dshs and and getting and getting benefits for for food stamps because I did I wasn't had didn't have a job um I I I didn't have anything I I came out of prison with 300 dollars in my pocket. That was it And And so the support that I that I've gathered along the way I was like where can I go to school once I found out I could and everybody everybody in the community Has directed me to highlight and so I figured highlight is has got it's got a reputation And and I wasn't shy about coming out of prison either And so everybody knew that I went to prison that I talked to And they still recommend highlight So it's a really good diverse community what we have here a really healthy community And I think that that's important for reentry for people coming out of prison And So then so then I started going to school and and I was afraid to come here Coming out of prison. I'm afraid to talk to people. I'm afraid to get involved And everybody was trying to get me involved But it just takes steps and so I'm really thankful for everybody's patience in this too Allowing me to grow creating an atmosphere for all of us to grow An education through the research I've done And and even through what president obama said with some of the research his team has done How education helps communities education helps people It reduces crime and reduces recidivism Yet we spend more money on prison and keeping people in prison And locking people up than we do on educating people we're taking That was one of the things that really upset me was seeing on the news while I was in my cell And seeing how they're taking money away from schools and putting them and making and building more prisons That seems counterintuitive to me And so that's that's kind of why it's why why we're creating jsoc And why jsoc is is is to help people coming out of prison get into school And and and have a voice And become successful in life and not only for them but for their families And for the people impacted by the prison because we don't want to we don't want to we don't want to see them end up in a cycle Of crime or or or continued crime. We want to see healed communities and we want to see them heal We want to see them succeed in life. That's the only way we're going to change things So I have a question for the panel So after incarceration and education, I do truly believe that Education is not just within your books. I believe that education is universal. I believe that Education is A lifestyle in all aspects. So for you all when we talk about education and matter of fact, I'm going to pause real quick Can I ask a show of hands how many people in here have no someone who's been incarcerated? Been arrested had any type of police contact family members cousin uncle nephew boo spouse, whatever Bam a lot of y'all Okay, so for me my question is I don't know a lot of people have biases about Folks such as myself Okay, and all my friends who have up here So how would what advice and I want to hear this from each and every one of you What advice would you give to people to educate them about the we are people? We believe in second chances and that we do overcome and we are not our past Because sometimes when in this work that we do people have biases, right? So how and and so for me, I know there's a type of support that I needed For people to understand when it came to social media, you know, there are still all these stigmas What how would you educate people today as far as dealing with someone when they say I have a criminal history versus somebody going off about their biases That was a loaded question So how would I approach somebody going off their biases basically, um Well is what I can tell you um for me, you know, I'd not I'm not an inherent criminal, you know, I didn't come out of the womb and was like You are destined to go to prison. That's just not that's just not what it is Okay, like there was a lot of things that went into my choices and and I take responsibility for the things that I did but But that doesn't mean that that's who I am at my core, you know and really to think that To send people to prison and putting them in time out And think that they're going to come out the other side change it it is just not It's just not realistic or yeah, reality. So I You know when people are biased, you know, and this is what I'll actually tell you too about addicts about Formerly incarcerated like we've seen the depths of hell. Okay, like we've been to a lot of places that that I I would never wish on anybody And I think that that going there It really when people do want to try and they want to change They put that much more effort into it and to not give them a chance To punish them for their entire life to not to say that they're not good enough is exactly It's going against everything that our criminal justice system is supposed to stay in the first place You know, you're supposed to sure be held accountable for your crimes But at the same time when you're when you finished doing that portion You're supposed to live in society as if anybody else were but that's just not the case. So I don't know if that answered the question, but Yeah So again, so so when you're dealing with people so again, I said we're educating right we're educating People about education our level of education. So we also I feel like we have to teach people about certain things our level A reaction type education understanding us. So for people who may have say, oh, yeah, you're a criminal you're blah, blah, blah, blah How would you educate them on what to say what not to say or how to be supportive in your situation? Um, I think I might have an interesting answer to that question or a statement. Um To let you guys know a little bit more about me before I went to prison I sold pot. I grew pot Um I'm the type of person regardless of what the law says. I want to think and do my own research before I make a decision on something The reason I you know, some people might look at me as like a criminal because I was dealing pot I wasn't paying taxes. That's the big issue. I wasn't paying taxes And there's other people who would look at me as a freedom fighter Because there's like a big group of people that wanted this thing Just like alcohol, but alcohol was legal. So in my mind, I was like, what's wrong here? Something's not right That's why I you know kept on doing that job that I had Um, but that's not why I went to prison. I went to prison because I actually killed someone in a car accident um The way like education is it's more like I look at education as the state of learning And learning happens everywhere. You are you guys are all learning right now We're all learning about things as well from other people um and Like an example would be like the experience that I had doing the job that I did and through prison as I came back to Highline because that was that high line in 2000 and I was like 18 lack of direction Nothing nowhere like I don't know what I was doing. I was just like thinking around and then after five years here I was just like this isn't right for me right now. Maybe I'll come back but Now that I came back and I had that prison experience. It was a little weird for me like JJ said it's like I'm 36 the people that are surrounding me are about like 18 16 Stuff like that. So it's kind of like Weird, but you know, then I think back to when I was that at that age like what was going on in my head Like they lack direction People don't really like to go talk to other people or ask for help. There's a lot of pride. They get shy so What I try to do in terms of like educating people and I don't hide the fact that I went to prison It's like, you know, you can look up my name on google and you can find my story and I've done that myself just to look back and think like Wow, was that really me? And I guess it was at that time, but that's not the me today Me today, I try to motivate people around me because I've already had that extra like Twice to a year twice the years that an 18 year old would have so I know what they're going to expect and The skip all that time, you know, like rather than learning the lesson the hard way they can learn it an easy way just by like seeing how someone who already went through it talked about it and At that point they don't care that I went to prison anymore because it's just like yeah, that happened my life, but I'm trying to do something else with it and They encourage that a lot more. So I think like That's part of your life that you know, it's like a stamp on your life I guess you could say it's kind of like when you go through customs You got bunch of stamps, you know before you actually make it to where you want to go So that's a stamp in my life, but it's not one that defines me. It only helps me to improve the person that I am so I guess with that attitude people just kind of see me differently than like Oh, he's gonna go back and do all this crazy stuff, but I might I don't know yet, but let's see what happens Let me have that opportunity to find out so, um One of the I mean what I do personally right is is I just talk to people One of the things for me is standing on my story, right? I don't live in shame and guilt, right? And so I'll I'll leave with that sometimes, right? And I kind of use it as a filter at times because if you're going to judge me because of that Then maybe you're not the kind of person I want in my life but maybe if you want to listen and Try to get to know somebody Then that's cool too, right? And so I think the work is kind of what we're doing right here, you know humanizing people, right? so It's about humanization because um, you know the the media mass media and everything has like Totally distorted what People that have backgrounds are right like we're the these inherent criminals But we're far more complex than our worst last decision. And so, um It's it's interesting because I talk to people and I've had this said to me jj. You don't look like you've been to prison Right. I'm like, hey, I'm like, what does somebody look like who's been to prison, right? Um, will you talk really well? Yeah, you know, I mean like and so people just Have a real distorted view of who we are and it's not that they have like these bad hearts, right? They're only uh responding to their conditioning and so Um, that is a lot of the work that we do is just as involved student group is these type of panels. Um We're also doing work on campus. Um, well, we're building up to this to where we we can Train like the housing people the housing committee HR and everything because they're all operating in those stigmas, too But what I found is when we get in front of people we tell our stories. We're honest Then people are like, oh, right and they open up and it breaks down those stigmas um one an interesting story for me is when I was a student here and I was looking for student housing and I found a person who was renting a house Just right across street. She rented rooms to students And so I went in there and I just told her my story. I'm you know federal probation, but and she said JJ that's scary But because you're honest, I'm gonna give you a chance, right? And so once you know it I eventually was a house manager handling all her money and everything And then the person who came there behind me was another formerly incarcerated building person So it's just that that stigma breaking stuff So like some of you that I don't know in this room might walk in with We're going in here to see these criminals, right? And hopefully you walk out with a different view with some knowledge And so it is it's around education too because most people that are in prison are in prison because of poverty And mental health, right? Most people that in prison aren't sociopaths They're just people that have been marginalized By an unjust system that we live in by our government by our economic system You don't want me to start going off on that stuff because I But anyway, it's it's yeah, it's that but that's part of the education piece, right is educating people to why we're the We have five percent of the world's population in this country But we have 25 percent of the world's prison population in the land of the free And so I mean, you know, there's got to be something going on, right? And so Um, and then when you look at the numbers, uh disproportionately it's people of color, right? We're yeah, I can't that's I'll go deep on that stuff because that's that's the education that I got though And so one thing about education for me, right is I live through poverty I live through racism I've lived through mass incarceration addiction and all these things But going back to school Now I have a context of what those things are and so one of the one of the Threshold concepts for me this year In the gateways for incarcerated youth program. It's a year-long program that I'm in at evergreen is John Dewey. He was a popular educator in the 1920s and 30s and uh his definition of experience, right There's a primary experience what you actually physically experience and see and then there's a secondary experience That's when you're able to give the context to that and so what education has done is given me the context To my experience to make me a fully experienced person And so I've studied a lot of political economy social movements mass incarceration popular education Even some brain science around trauma, right? Like I was in class, right? And I was experiencing these feelings that I recognized from before and today I knew I could tell you what it was. It was trauma being re reactivated in my body around around like Privilege and stuff like that around people saying so me being the only black man And formerly incarcerated person in my class with a bunch of privileged students, right? Things were being said. I'm like, but I didn't at first. I was like, man, what's going on JJ? Why are you getting so upset, right? And and I had to just step back and reflect and I realized that that was that trauma that so that Generational trauma that we have, you know being the descendants of slaves and stuff like that, right? And so that that was that being reactivated But at least now I can recognize that and know how to deal with that in a proper Productive manner and everything and so Yeah, it's just it's around that educate. We got a We ma'am, you know the way things are Is that they want to just keep us ignorant and that's how they keep us separated as a people, right? Because us as a people poor white folks people of color, you know We got way more in common And we got a common common enemy than That and we but they figured out how to keep us separate Right and so anyway, so I'm gonna pass So I try to just only worry about the things that are in within my control And so I really have no control over how other people view me see me or judge me I show them the best me as I can and I try to be the positive influence The best I know how to be for myself for my family The people I love and care about and but also to create create an example for people coming after me It's important If some you know, everybody's got to have you know, if people can't identify With me or the people I can't identify with me because of because of we have similar stories or similar backgrounds and crime If I'm a pal if I'm not a good example that I'm leading them down the wrong path But if I am being a good example that I'm leading them down the right path and And I show so I show people There was a guy there's a guy that He's doing some oil fracking and he's invented this new tractor and he's got a huge company down in Oregon And he used to come into prisons and do mock interviews And when he first heard my story, he was very judgmental And then he asked me this question. He says now now why is it important for me to hire you? Because that was that was like the beginning of the interview there was there wasn't like no interview that was just my crime And you're a criminal And so he does that to put you in shock like what makes what makes somebody valuable to be hired Despite their their background despite their past Because because oftentimes people see the our past and they just judge us by that Because and we're not and we have to be willing to show them more than that We got to be willing to show them who we are today. Our past is always going to be a pass. I can't change that I have control over right now And in my future ahead of me By the choices I've made for my past I can learn from those I can become better and and that's that's for that's true for everybody There's nothing I can do about my past though and if they want to judge me on that that's on that's on them But to me that's out of ignorance. That's not out of that's not out of Of reality And that's happened. That's that's that's part of that's part of the society we live in That's one of the reasons why I'm trying to create change to help people succeed Thank you Alrighty well, we got to two out of my seven questions So if anyone wants to stay and continue the conversation, that's fine, but it is two o'clock and I think there's going to be another great Lecture starting really soon So, uh, thank you all so much for coming and can we have another round of applause for our panelists?