 Aloha. Welcome to Think Tech Hawaii's Movers, Shakers, and Reformers. I'm your host, Carl Timpania. This is the Politics in Hawaii series. Many people assume that Hawaii is a blue state. Many people believe that we are a true blue state, one of the bluest in our whole nation. I'm not entirely sure that's true, and I think that there is room for that discussion. There's no secret at this point that I, this year, ran for office. I ran for state senate. I did not win. However, the interesting thing there is, there were a little over 17,000 registered voters. Of those 17,000 registered voters, just over 6,000 actually voted. Okay. Add to that, in the entire district, there were about 1,400 registered Democrats, of which I am a Democrat. Interestingly, again, 6,000 people voted already. So what are they? Are they independent? Are they Republican? Are they undeclared? What does that mean? So that's part of the analysis. This isn't the reason for the topic as far as me running, but it's an interesting topic as you go from district to district, island to island. What actually are we? Are we really more purple, like many other states are much more purple? So to talk about this with me, a very important guest today is Mr. Tony Gill. He is a labor relations attorney. He has served in many, many ways to benefit this question, to advance this question, as well as work within politics throughout many, many years. And we'll hear more about that from him in a second. Welcome to the show, Mr. Tony Gill. Hi. Glad to be here. Excellent. So okay. First of all, tell us a little bit about you and politics and what you do and what got you to be a labor relations attorney and involved in politics in Hawaii. Well, what made me a Democrat was, I guess that was my mother's second question. Your mother's second question? Yes, doctor, but is he a Democrat? That was given. People who know the history of my family know that it was not likely to turn out another way. I'm one of the generation, I guess, that can still remember the Revolution of 54, although I remember it as a child. I had my little crew cut and there was lots of golden rain coming down all the time at all the rallies, which I figured out later was beer and there was a lot of beer and sawdust. I can tell you about that. But my family was politically involved and remains politically involved to this day. So it was a natural course for me. My father was a labor relations attorney and I succeeded to the firm. So we have a practice now and I do work for Democrats from time to time as a sideline, you might say. As a sideline. So as a labor relations attorney, aside from, I guess, party politics, what sorts of things do you do? What are the sorts of cases that you take on? My firm focuses on representation of labor unions. So we've represented a number over the years. Current clients include the professors and nurses. We've had a variety of construction unions, sometimes in the distant past teachers and so forth. So I have a kind of a public sector and private sector bridge there. We do a lot of arbitrations and the things that come with labor union representation. Okay. So you still represent largely Democrats when it comes to unions. Generally you would say. Generally you would say, but not exclusively. That's another big thing as far as Hawaii is concerned, is the unions and the role that unions play. Nationally, I won't get into the big history of unions at the moment. That's not what we're talking about. But it's just an interesting facet here. How large of a player unions are with campaigns. In particular, during the campaigns, it's really the unions that and the union members that spend more time out signwaving and door-knocking than almost anyone else. Certainly with some campaign. Anyway, okay, well, great. Okay. You have also served as far as the Democratic Party is concerned. You have been a Oahu County chair. That's right. I've been a number of subordinate positions to Oahu County's chair over the years and was elected three times. I had to step down on a number of occasions for other assignments, but I've been a Oahu County chair, which makes me, in that capacity, responsible for the grassroots organization on the island. I did run for state party chair, but due to the wisdom of the convention, I was relieved of that opportunity. It's always fascinating the different factions that exist. So there's always groups and then within those groups, there are smaller groups. Well, I thank them. I would have been two years of washing dishes for 50,000 people with no pay and no thanks. That's one way of looking at it. Absolutely. But instead, yes, we have a different chair and now we even have a new chair. That's just how that goes. Okay. One of the things and more germane to the topic here, one of the things that you've been working on is this idea of party politics, of succession plan. I'll add that in. But really more when it comes to the elections and primary elections and whether our primaries are open or closed and there's a history around that and there's some challenges to that. So I wanted to talk a bit about that and hopefully learn from you what you have done, what you have learned and where we are in that conversation at the moment. Well, that's a big bite. So I'll try to share that. We'll piecemeal for you. I know you have a historical background. So the thing to recognize first off is that most people, you were talking about red and blue and what color is this state, most people are just blank. Most people don't vote at all. That seems to be clear. They're obviously not your viewers. Right. But all those people out there, the over half of them that don't bother to vote are essentially useless to the system. They're dead weight. Yeah, which is unfortunate. They don't understand what citizenship is about, or they think that citizenship is really a consumer concept, which is not. Citizen is different because the citizen stands up and addresses issues publicly with a voice. But that's the key thing you have to understand is that citizens, be they left, right or center, want to be heard to participate and to involve themselves with other like minded people in hope of generating an electoral majority somehow. That's what a citizen does. It's what an active, well, a real citizen. Okay, the other ones are basically useless and they'll get what they deserve. So if you take the 50% of the people or less who bother to participate or register even, then you have yet a subset of those who turn out to vote. Right. So that to use very sloppy math, three quarters of the people don't play in the game. That's definitely true in this last election. I think we had about almost records about 30% about 32% at most actually voted. It varies up and down according to the enthusiasm. Another way to look at that is it was 32% of the registered voters. Yes, voted. Yes. So it's a smaller number when you look at the total population. Correct. Yeah. All right. So it's a discouraging picture. So really, if you say, is this a red or a blue state? Well, it's mostly pale. It's mostly pale. When you look at it from that perspective, from that perspective, as far as the people who vote, the ones who actually vote seem to lean will call it lean blue. Yes, they seem to lean blue. They do seem to lean blue. But what that means in practical operational terms is really up for question, which is why I suppose you induced me to come down here and sit in front of the green screen. Yes. Okay. So no, it's a capital. Right. The problem that we have in the state of Hawaii now is that people fail to understand that a primary election and a general election to serve two completely different purposes. They are blurred together in the common mind. Oh, it's an election, but they're not the same. The general election is to select the person who will represent. Okay. The primary election is to determine who the parties will nominate. Okay, so that's an important distinction. Again, for the number of people that aren't as engaged in politics, local or otherwise, it's an important distinction to understand. There's one election, which is preceded by a nomination. Right. Now notice. Okay. I understand we just elected a new president. Somebody told me this. I heard about it. What the parties do in this state is they caucus to determine who their nominee shall be. You did not go to any primary election to nominate any president. We held a presidential preference poll. Yes. If you were a Democrat, you went to the Democrat one, and the Republicans have thought that this is a good thing. And now they have one too. And I don't know their exact procedure, but it's similar. Sure. And so without there being any vote taken among the general public at all, the parties nominated their nominee for the highest office in the land. Right. And in Hawaii, that's the only one. Yeah, this year in Hawaii, that nominee happened to be a percentage wise Bernie Sanders. Indeed. As far as the presidential preference poll was concerned. Indeed. And that is relevant because that chooses the delegates that then go to the electoral college, big convention, the electoral college in the big convention and the convention. Yeah. So that's how I guess that's that's good to see how that stuff works as well. So each step being a Democrat, first of all, you have to be a registered Democrat, first of all, in order to participate in the presidential preference poll. Yeah, here's the key fact. And then we'll get into why the primary election is in my view, odd. Okay. Okay. When you go to a Democratic caucus or Republican equivalent of it, and you participate in selecting a nominee, it seems perfectly normal that you should be a Democrat or a Republican or whatever party, because after all, the Democrats are deciding who they wish to nominate for their party for their party's interest based on their party's platform. Yeah. And that's perfectly acceptable for a president. It's illegal for every other office in the state. It's illegal to do it that way for every other office in this state. Yes. Is it that way in all states? No. So there are some states that do it the same way. We are an open primary state, open primary state, which means that everyone, regardless of party affiliation, can pull any ballot and pretend to be a nominator of that party's candidates for our within the bounds of our state for our state state office primary election. Correct. Yes. Right. And that would include that would include city council, which is nonpartisan technically. Although that's very blurred. House Senate and governor, right, and lieutenant governor that gets elected separately. Right. Okay. So when it comes to all of those seats, it's an open primary. So anybody that decides they want to show up and vote in the primary can show up and pull whatever card they want. I'm going to pull the Democratic card because well, I did last time because it's Tuesday. Whatever. Sure. All right. So so they'll choose that now they don't have to be and this is the question. They don't have to be registered Democrats. No, they don't. Does anybody care if they're registered to anything? Nobody can know. Nobody can know it's illegal for anybody to know. So therefore, it is very possible, if not likely, that given the way the state of Hawaii works, we have a majority of Democratic candidates. Republicans show up to vote in our and pull the Democratic card. I do. Of course they do. Okay. So that seems like that is contrary to what the intent, I will say could be. Well, no, it is a specific intent of the law to drive parties underground or to make it impossible for anyone to know who is nominating the candidates of a party. That was the purpose of the 1978 Con Con is to make it impossible for anyone to know why party affiliation you are when you pull a ballot and do the nominating. Why was that decided? There are several reasons there with the the cover story was it was in the post Watergate era and everybody was afraid of big brother. And so nobody wanted government snooping on your political identity. In my judgment, the real purpose was to make parties less partisan. And it has succeeded. Oh, it's definitely succeeded. It succeeded. Yes, which goes back to your question about is this a blue state or other? Yeah, we appear to be a blue state. I appear to be a blue state, but one based on this, especially in my race and my race, it was, it was a primary race. I ran against the incumbent, the incumbent one. But however, the number of votes I went through already. That was that election ended in August. And there was not a general after that because no Republican, no independent, no one else decided to run for that. So that ended, that election ended sure August 8. Yeah. So therefore, whoever voted Democrat, Republican, independent, I don't care, voted for that seat on August 8. Yes. So therefore, necessarily, well, not necessarily, non Democrats definitely voted in that race and in other races. It's not about me. All of the time. All of the time. All of the time. All right. So therefore, that's interesting. It has to be so we have to take a quick break. We have to take a quick break. And we're going to come back and dive more into this because this I think there's a lot to this and something to really understand. So thank you for joining us. This is Think Tech Hawaii, Movers, Shakers and Reformers, the Politics in Hawaii series. Thank you again to my guest, Mr. Tony Gill. We'll be back in one minute. Thank you. Hi, I'm Chris Leitham with The Economy and You and I'd like to invite you each week to come watch my show each Wednesday at 3 p.m. Hi, I'm Donna Blanchard. I'm the host of Center Stage, which is on Wednesdays at two o'clock here on Think Tech. On Center Stage, I talk with artists about not only what they do and how they do it, but the meat of the conversation for me is why they do it, why we go through this. A lot of us are not making our livings doing this. And a lot of us would do this with our last dying breath if we had that choice. And that's what I love to talk to people about. I hope you enjoy watching it. And I hope you get inspired because there's an artist inside you too. Join us on Center Stage at 2 o'clock on Wednesdays. Bye. This is Steve Katz. I'm a marriage and family therapist and I do shrink wrap, which is now going to every other week all during the summer and maybe forever after. Take care of your mental health this summer. Have a good time. Do what's fun and take good care of yourself. Bye bye. Welcome back to Think Tech Hawaii's Movers, Shakers and Reformers, Politics in Hawaii series. Welcome once again, our guest, Mr. Tony Gill. Okay, so we were just talking about the primary election here in Hawaii that that that elects ultimately our nominates candidates. Well, it nominates candidates and it can elect, but okay, it nominates candidates to run in the general. So it's understanding that first of all, okay, the primary is to select the nominee who's then going to run in the general if there is opposition. So we have different ballots. We've got the Republican ballot. We have the Democratic ballot. We have independent ballot. We have how many others there are. Sure. People go into the booth and they pick whatever ballot and they vote necessarily because of the way the law is written. No one can know and no one does know what affiliation you are unless they happen to know you before you go in there and it doesn't matter what affiliation you are. You vote for whoever you feel like voting for. You're a Democrat. I'm a Democrat. We're ardent Democrats. We have no more right to nominate the Democratic nominee of the Democratic Party than the person, my evil twin, who's done nothing but contribute money to the most arched right or regressive candidates and has done nothing but organize against the Democrats. My evil twin and I have the same vote in nominating the Democratic nominee as you or anybody else does and that's the problem with it because normally you and I can arrange that let's work together and we say what about him and her. We'll bring them in. Let's work together and elect somebody. That's a baby political party. What the state of Hawaii says is no you cannot. You and I and he and she cannot create our own nominee. Everyone must participate in creating our nominee and therefore there's no way to tell what a Democrat stands for as opposed to the general population and this is why coming back to your first point it's very tough to tell that this is really a blue state. Yeah. Because in the early statehood days the Democrats rose to power but they weren't all dominant by any means. There were numerous examples of strong Republican constituencies up till relatively recently historically it all flipped eventually so that now we have a wholly Democrat dominated legislature because the Democratic Party has absorbed the Republican Party. That and that's the thing we have this is concept that I've been asking about for a couple of years now. In the Democratic Party we have the big tent theory and the minute I heard that I said wait big tent theory means we're going to welcome in anybody who wants to call themselves a Democrat. We are wide open to be infiltrated. We are wide open to have anybody else with whatever their real agenda is come in and pretend that they're a Democrat, run as a Democrat, win as a Democrat but never actually agree with what our platform is even 50 percent of our platform. Correct. And that's what we have right now. There are a number and without calling out names people have different opinions on it anyway. Well there are people who have various degrees of agreement with what the Democratic platform is who call themselves Democrats. Yeah now so we're in the era of the individual political entrepreneur. Yes. This is because the parties under modern election law no longer control any funding really. They control a little bit but not anything significant. Right. If you have outside funding you're golden. If you have funding from the Koch brothers you're golden. Whatever. That funding comes in from a lot of different. A lot of different places not from. In a lot of different ways but yes. Not necessarily from here. So what does the individual political entrepreneur want to do? Get elected. Observing the result which is now a generation on from the time when parties were fairly distinct. The individual entrepreneur thinks I should run as a D because my odds are materially better. Yes. So polls the paper checks the box no necessary contact even with the party. Don't have to be a registered Democrat to when you when you go to the election office and you fill out the paperwork and you pay the amount of money it's I'm going to run for this race you say I'm a Democrat but there is no validation or verification of the elections office as it's not their job. So what the party has to do is has to step back and basically run people out which is a little awkward to do at the eleventh hour. That is awkward to do and it's actually a big thing that we've had to deal with this year. There's a number of in fact we had one candidate this is fascinating. We had one candidate this year I will leave her name out of it who actually ran as a Republican and a Democrat for three different seats. On the same day. On the same day. Yeah well she didn't win any of them but. I have that case. There's no reason not to mention Ms. Kai Hui. She feels that she is entitled to be both a Republican and a Democrat and run as one of each for a similar office on the same day on the same ballot. So. And there are no rules against that apparently. There are no rules that say no you shouldn't. Not in the office of elections but there are party rules but we're drifting off the point here which is that the the concept of party affiliation is so degraded now that we have lapsed into a one party includes all system. Yeah. Now people who object to this tend to be Democrats who believe that the Democratic Party has a particular agenda. That should be pushed. It should be. Validated in the field after explanation of it and that the Democratic persons the representatives should adhere roughly to the Democratic brand but there's because the primary election allows everyone to vote there's no ultimate control over that nomination. Yeah. And there are no regulations throughout the whole process. No. OK. So. So what you had was you had a true contest historically between Democratic and Republican perspectives in the state which over time eroded and as the Democratic Party absorbed more and more people who in any other state would be Republicans with fiscal conservative policies socially conservative policies and all kinds of other things. Then the Democratic Party became truly dominant but less and less meaningful. Absolutely. Ideologically. That definitely seems to be a problem that we're faced with. Yeah. All right. So in the last few minutes that we have what what is being done. What can be done. Well the first thing to do is for people who are interested in this topic to recognize that the primary election system that we have now is functionally identical to the primary election system that obtained during the period of the plantation oligarchy. OK. It's a historical study you can make on your own time. The Democratic Party as it rose to power made as its first article of business getting rid of the open primary and allowing people to affiliate by by party for choice of nomination of their own. So long ago with them. They implemented that finally in 68 and had a run to about 78 when the con con knocked it out. So your the current there's no statutory alternative to what we do now. You'd have to do one of the following things. The Constitution has to change or be struck down to permit. Traditional that that constitutional that was out of constitution. That was an amendment. Yeah. Right. So we can affect that amendment. You can do it or the courts could strike it down depending which is a whole another story. Probably not a whole constitution that amendment. The alternative that might work would be a statutory amendment that allowed the parties to do something like what they did with the presidency. Right. That's possible under existing law. Now what if. Okay. Because it's illegal we can't do this. But what if we it would require an act of our state Congress our state legislators to make a rule change. Is it administrative rule. Does it need to be a bill. Does it have to affect and impact the Constitution to say to the office of elections. Verify that they are actually a Democrat. No that would be a statutory change the legislature could make and the governor could sign that portion of it is purely statutory. Okay. And that would. So therefore if you're going to run as a Democrat we can actually ask for that statutory change and that could be done without a constitutional amendment. I believe so. Yeah. Okay. And then when it comes to the bigger question there is how do we make people have to be a Democrat in order to vote for a Democrat. They must be registered. How okay we can't force people to register. No. That's part of the. The essence of what is called the closed primary is that you register your name publicly as being affiliated with a certain party or perspective and that's what entitles you to pull that ballot. Now it doesn't prevent anybody from lying but you make the registration sufficient that it's not lightly changeable on a whim. So let's say for example you must register as a Democrat or a Republican 90 days before the election or some such. There are rules like that. There are rules in other states. In fact well even here even here if you don't if you don't file or if you don't file as a Democrat within within the 90 days prior to the cutoff time. I think it's time to base. You have to come before the party and ask may I run as a Democrat. That says to run. Now we're confusing the voter and voter and running. I was getting off crosswise. Got it. Okay. The point is that certain kinds of changes would require a constitutional change or court ruling. Certain kinds of changes can be done by statute where the legislature and acts and the governor signs. And there are some things that parties can do it independently to try to sharpen the line. Sure. But without going too far a field some or at least one of these choices would be required in order to make a material change in the way we do things here now. Well I I think it's worth more discussion. Unfortunately our show is over. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you again Mr. Tony Gill. Thank you to the staff and the crew here think Tech Hawaii. My final take on this in the last couple of seconds is all I really want is be who you are. If you're a Democrat be a Democrat. If you're a Republican have the courage to be a Republican and run based on those values. That would be my take rather than hiding behind the veil of a big tendon. It's the only way my percentages are to win. Be what you are and see what comes of that. So that would be my take of that. So again thank you all appreciate it. See you next week.