 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I am your host Bart van der Zee and today I am joined by spike T Smith spike Welcome to the show. Hey bat. Thank you for inviting me on the show You yourself are a very prolific punk drummer and beyond that. I'm sure more more genres, but you have a very very vast knowledge of punk drumming and we've really on the show Haven't talked much about this awesome genre, which I'm a big fan of We're talking specifically about the D beat which you have created an awesome documentary about which we'll talk about a little bit later But I think before we start what would be a good idea is for me to drop in some audio of you playing the D beat And then people can actually hear it and then we'll hop in and talk about it. So let's hear this first All right, so people just heard it. So now I think people know this rhythm. They've heard it a lot While we're starting here, let's kick things off Why don't you define what the D beat is? Well D beat is a very specific Pattern that's created between the bass drum and snare drum the name comes from the band discharge, which You could call the originators of the style and of the rhythm I mean, it's not true to say that, you know, the drummer Tess Roberts, who is the original drummer of this jazz created a completely Unique rhythm. It's a rhythm that, you know, has existed Well, probably since tribes in Africa started hitting things, you know But what's really happened with it is is that discharge They created a sound from from the rhythm and to give it a bit of clarity Maybe for people who don't know anything about it. What seemed to happen I mean, we had punk, you know, punk, you know, kind of came about in the mid the mid 70s, you know with the Ramones and You know, et cetera from New York Yeah, the Sex Pistols and the Clash and the Dan, et cetera doing something in the UK And you know that morphed into, you know, like what was the the beginnings of punk rock as we all know it What what happened was really there was a second way that that that Came in sort of around the turn of the 80s and and again it was happening on both continents really because You know, you you had, you know, the the American bands like their Kennedys and You know black flag and bad brains and the whole host of others that were, you know, like cutting a teeth in the US And then over here you had like that, you know, the likes of And discharge and GBH and exploited that, you know, we're creating, you know, like a more aggressive form of punk that was becoming known then as hardcore punk Now this chest we kind of like, you know, that the foreigners in this because they were really I suppose younger musicians that were coming from, you know What we'll call the first wave of punk, but hadn't you know, hadn't broken through What this chat seemed to do is is that discharge released three EP records in quite a short scale of time. So You know, EPs are like extended play singles, but maybe some of the listeners that don't know what that is So you were in effect buying a seven-inch record But you know, they'd have maybe four or five songs of them, you know Yeah, and of course with with you know, like the band like this jet the songs are short and direct and fast And I'm really I suppose why it's become You know synonymous with them is that that beats out of say the 12 songs that appeared on those three first EPs But that rhythm isn't is in at least nine of them. Wow So so it's like it, you know, it's like a consistency factor Now, I don't know which way it came, you know, whether it was Because there's another interesting factor here is that the guitarist of discharge and the drummer then a twin brothers So I don't know whether Tess Came up with a rhythm and then bones the guitarist started writing riffs to that or whether the style of Guitar riff that would be written just that, you know That rhythm suited it But but either way, you know, it appears in most of the songs So they've set, you know a very consistent sound that goes with the rhythm And and you know discharge have proven to be a highly influential band I mean, you know, all the thrush metal bands and and that, you know site this judges and influence And it's those early records, you know that that that have a big part to play in it, you know Yeah, um, yeah, and of course never mind the punk bands that followed them afterwards, you know It's like so I suppose that's why it's called the db Now interestingly enough They went the first to use that beat. It actually was played, you know, like, um The buzzcocks used it beforehand And when I was doing the documentary I was I I had to be very mindful of this because I put a little, you know Like a little sampler out before I did my documentary I was just curious to see the interest in it or what people might, you know, like putting comments underneath a video or whatever And of course, you know, the first thing that was coming up with is like, oh, you know discharge, you know They they didn't play this rhythm first, um, you know, the buzzcocks played it before and I thought well I know this already But then I thought well if I'm doing the documentary then I've really got that's got to be included You know, it's it's impossible for me to do a documentary on the db And and interview tez roberts From discharge without me, you know, including buzzcocks and the drummer john mad, you know Yeah, but the difference is bad is that the buzzcocks and there's john points out, you know In that whole early career, there's three albums and the numerous singles they did You only ever played that rhythm twice You know out of dozens of songs it wasn't a staple part of their sound But as I said for discharge, it was it became the blueprint Yeah, which that there's something to be said about that like if that becomes You know doing it a couple times is there's a big difference from it becoming the sound of your band and it's kind of one of those drum beats that Um, I feel like with punk it's punk is kind of unique where the other musicians the guitar the vocals the bass Everything can kind of do a million different things over that particular beat the songs can all sound different You know what I mean? Does that make sense? It's very uh, you can change the tempo It's it's just one of those interesting beats where you can do it a million different ways And I know in the documentary you talk about, um How you can play like straight through with your hi-hat hand or you can kind of syncopate and match With your hand with matching with your bass drum foot. So there's a lot of ways you can you can Make that beat your own Yeah, exactly right and and what You know the interesting part there and like you said is is there's so many variations is that You know, that was another thing I wanted to do with the documentary because I seen You know with with the advent of youtube and social media, there was a lot of people Putting stuff out that I just thought well, it's not factually correct You know, someone say you can only do it this way Um, you know, you don't play it with a hi-hat. You've got to play it with a crash symbol Um, and I'm sort of thinking well straight away. That's wrong because you know the first Interpretation of it by buzzcocks is on the hi-hat. Sure you know um, but You know the the key factor to sort of point out here as well, but is you know Why it's interesting is that buzzcocks and discharge The rhythm probably stands out because both bands choose to use it as a drum intro to the song So, you know, the both the songs have this kind of boom, but I'm gonna get them get them get them get them get that You know digga digga that or digga digga digga. Whatever the fill is but you know, but you know Who depend on the musicians who you know from both those Outfits obviously felt fit to think wow that sounds cool. Let's use it as a drum intro, you know The other thing is is that it is played in its most basic and crude way Which is the right hand following the bass drum But you know, why it's because both of those drummers had only been really playing weeks Before they were committing it to tape Yeah, so you hadn't they just hadn't practiced it that much to get the end of them. Yeah, they were developed drummers They were you know, they were you know, young lads who just started playing That were just being as creative as they could be with their limited playing ability, you know, yeah, yeah I mean, you know, john Particularly points out, you know, how it came about and how he was just put on the spot because of the riff that was played to him Um, you know, and it's as simple as that But you know, the thing is is that regardless of that if the fact of the matter is this rhythm has gone on to to shape, you know A style of music and and now it's you know, it I mean db as a name isn't just a beat now It's you know, it's a musical style and the musical force even, you know And you know, it's it's, you know, over 40 years old So regardless of how it started it of course has been developed And and as you pointed out as well, there's so many ways of playing it So for instance, you know And like I tried to point out in my other You know in my other Videos I've done afterwards because of course I've done the documentary the birth of the db But then I tried to do a definitive a definitive guide. Yeah, how to play it You know, you know taking it from his most basic raw Style developing it through maybe You know where you become more of a developed player and you can play it with say The more typical right hand Um keeping a consistent quarter note pulse, you know, yeah on on be the hi-hat the ride or the floor tom Um, but then that you know, I've done another video where I've developed it again playing it in a linear pattern You know, so now you're getting into more modern, you know, drum rhythm concepts, you know What a popular, you know, like uh more modern drum. Yeah for sure. Yeah And the latest one I've done is playing it in in, you know all time signatures, you know I mean, so it's it's almost like that there's Only so many different kind of patterns and rhythms that you could do and like you said earlier where it probably comes from Africa and these You know or cavemen kind of things way back It's It's got that feel to it where again if you speed the hell out of it and speed up with it and and Play it fast with, you know distorted guitars and bass and vocals and It sounds very punk, but you could play it in tons of different ways that buta buta buta buta and get that You could make it more like, you know Tribal but that's kind of the coolest thing about drums is we're just like a You know, we're setting the foundation for everything to come on top of it Of course and and you know, the other factor is is that, you know, looking back on it for myself When you play it in that most basic raw sense It sounds like it's most tribal because, you know, it literally is just meant about, you know, the power The energy and the aggressiveness, you know, as soon as you play it say like a quarter note Um ride cymbal pattern this smooths it out now. That's great, but it's not always what you want You know, so So it's you know, it's just it's really then a question of What you're trying to do with it. Sometimes you don't want it to sound so aggressive I mean an interesting part you mentioned dead kennedys. Well, you know, they're the first term of dead kennedys was very jazz influenced So, you know, you could play a d a d beat with a jazz ride cymbal pattern Yeah, and that would give it a different feel again, you know Um, the thing is is the faster it goes To my mind The more it it loses its bounce and and you you mentioned further back about the other rhythm That's very close to it, you know, which where you take the one bass from no out So you went with the back that the back that yeah, well that suits when you get, you know When you're getting more to your 200 bpm is much better, you know Yeah, because when you're kind of getting up to the do that that that that that You know, it can start to sound, you know, like pretty clumsy when you play the db That's exactly right and that's a good point to bring up because once you do hit a certain speed that That boot up boot up boot up boot up boot up. It it does lend itself more to boot up boot up boot up Yeah, boot up boot up because it's so fast. You just need that little bit You know that air to breathe, you know, yeah, so you take that bass drum out and suddenly that fits better Um, and I suppose, you know, really that has come as an interpretation from the db You know, yeah, really my mind is not the db. So, you know, it's Yeah, you know, it's another rhythm. It is another rhythm and I think the other punk beats that and you know, I hope it's funny people are probably just driving listening to us like You know make drum sounds with our mouths But like, uh, it's it's like that that everyone always thinks of the boop-bop boop-bop boop-bop boop-bop or boop-bop boop-bop boop-bop You know fast like boop-bop boop-bop boop-bop boop-bop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Those are obviously very different, but I feel like you kind of have this like in the punk drumming world As you are obviously a master of you you have this like tool belt where you can like, you know, pull your different traditional punk beats from And then choose which one you want to use Um, now do you know it's it's not I know we're talking about the dbeat, but those those more boop-bop boop-bop boop-bop boop-bop boop-bop to those That had to be kind of happening in the same line where you know, if you're not going to play the dbeat on a song Maybe you just do that fast, you know one two one two one two one two boop-da boop-da boop-da like yeah seems parallel, right? Yeah, well, I think you know, what what what it really is is that you know, when you're playing in in really You know the more what we You know, it's now turned this hard called punk. I mean, you know, there's all kinds of you know, like Um, you know, like your names and styles now, you know, you've got a lot big hardcore punk and you know, etc etc But and I mean, I'm keeping it within hardcore punk here more because the tempo is a more, you know, they're more um Linked with hardcore punk and say they are with you know, pop You know, which does have fast songs like bands like no effects and that but um, a lot of it tends to be um You know, there's a lot more sort of, you know, like four four patterns fast four four patterns as opposed to maybe the two four patterns Yeah, and um, but the thing is is what what really shaped a lot of those patterns You know from the bands and you know, and I'm going back to the sort of you know, the the early years of You know, the this period with db and things is it was simply the guitar riff Because the guitar riff was really the melody of the song You know, somebody asked me to you know to describe or you know to differentiate punk to hardcore punk and I was like, well You know It's it's more aggressive. It tends to be faster and the singers You know that they don't sing, you know the tune, you know, I mean they do but You know, the tune isn't held in the vocals that you know, the melody really is the guitar riff, you know So if you like a really, you know, like a you know, if you've got favorite songs by the like of discharge or gbh or um You know even minor threat or whatever from you know from washington dc The chances are it's the guitar that's carrying the melody You know, the vocals are you know, like uh Shout in the message, you know, yeah, and so as the drummer, you know You'll often find that the drums are very influenced by what's going on with the guitar So if the riff is straight You're going to play one of those straight, uh, you know, you're naturally going to play one of those straight rhythms Uh, and if it's kind of got the db bounce and I like to use that word bounce because I always feel the db has a certain Bounce to it, which of course those straight rhythms don't have You know, then then you've got to be mindful which one you're going for to me It's a little bit like if you're playing latin and you you know, you you you mixed up the clave, you know So, you know, the tune is in the three two clave, but you're playing a two three drum part It's going to great. Yeah, it's competing where if the guitar's going Then you're going to like Naturally follow it. Yeah, exactly that exactly that. So, you know Like any form of music, you know that there's certain things you naturally Adhere to just because it either works or it immediately doesn't work, you know Yeah, I think with drumming and patterns and stuff, you know, you can talk about it And plan and think about what you're going to play all day But then the second you sit down and you start jamming It almost just all goes away and you just your body takes over and you start playing what's right for the song And this is obviously one of those cases where then you get your options of doing, you know On the crash on the hi-hat you doing, you know your own style, but it's sort of just like It's inherent to like It's it just what comes out of you is usually the right thing and it's, you know, the goal is to make people um, you know in in certain styles, it's more to dance in uh In more punk genres. It's more to make people just, you know, thrash and like Jump around which is your goal. So that's kind of the beat and the speed that you're going to play at Yeah, that's right. And what really happened was, you know, with with, you know, the the likes of um, you know discharge and um You know, one of my favorite bands ever is bad brains. Yeah Um, you know, so you've got the american side, you've got the british side, you know, so over here we had the likes of discharge and Gbh and the exploited You know and the whole host of others and of course At that time, you know In the stage you've you've got, you know bad brains and mind the threat and black flag as I said And be away from canada and you know again the whole host of others that are coming through is that second wave And interestingly enough, you've even got a band like dead kennedy's who, you know Had started just a bit early, but they picked up on the hardcore thing and you know, they They went from the first album being very spiky and punky to even in god We trust which is a full-on hardcore, you know, political assault, you know, yeah Yeah, and the the dead kennedys in particular have kind of a uh I don't know they have some songs that are very like You know punk, but they're not as like They might be slower or they might be more of like that Which is just a difference like you don't I think it's almost kind of Quote unquote punk to not care about playing what's You're supposed to be playing In certain styles and like just do what feels right for the song But my god his it's dh right who plays with the dead kennedys May on his hand as fast Yeah, he was great, but of course he didn't play on the first album. Okay, who was that and he was in the first drummer So the first drummer Um, well, he went into two names. He was a bruce lessinger. Okay. I think definitely bruce Uh, and he also, you know, was known as ted Okay, it's the same guy got it, but he played on the first, you know, handful of singles on the first album And he was very jazz Um, you know, even when you see some footage with him, he's playing traditional grip Um, and you can even hear the jazz ride in certain, you know, in certain songs by them You know, so it you know, that that's a point of interest for anybody that might be listening to this It's like, you know, There was jazz drumming going on in punk, you know in the early days of it Yeah, that comes up a lot in the show is like how You know, depending on when, you know, this would be How far back you go a lot of times these guys were growing up Influenced by jazz drummers. So it's cross genre that, you know, of course you're or or their parent His dad or mom loved jazz and was listening to it all the time and Exactly. And you know, and maybe, you know, the one thing I noticed with them You know, the american drummers of the day versus the british is a lot a lot of them seemed a lot more school You know, um, you know that they, you know, possibly had, you know, teachers or good teachers, you know So although they were young and I'm fully into the punk thing that they had, you know, like Chops I mean the shops may be raw But but, you know, they could they had energy and could play and and going back to dh for leagro As you said, he could play. Yeah And so, you know, as soon as he joined, you know, suddenly dead kennedys could play super fast songs, you know They had the drummer that could do it, you know And and you know, and and that was the difference Um, you know, it's quite a different style. Well, uh, dh was to ted. Yeah I mean dead kennedys are one of my favorite, you know, my favorite bands Yeah, for sure You know, the thing is is with all this as well, but as I you know, I grew up within it. So Totally, you know, like I I'm you know I I remember it as it was happening, you know I can remember so over here in the dead kennedys thinking, wow What's going on here? It's you know, it's like a different band Or I can remember first buying those discharge records and thinking Again, you know, jesus, you know, what's this? I've never heard a sound like this before Yeah And then another record is released soon after wow more of it brilliant. I can't get enough of it, you know And then another So, you know, the reason that going back part Why I wanted to do the documentary was I thought well I kind of know this info, you know, this information is second nature to me I get I can remember it But again stuff that I was seeing on the internet, you know, I felt was, you know, miss or ill-informed You know, yeah, it might have been well-meaning in some cases, but it was like, well, oh, that's not right, you know Um, that you know, so-and-so didn't play on that record and in fact, that's not even db Anyway, it's a different rhythm. It's a different drummer in fact, you know It might still be discharged But so things like that made me want to Go back and interview the key guys so that I could document it, you know, as thoroughly as I could, you know Yeah, and you know people usually know this that if you I'll post the Link to it in the show notes here, but um, so let me ask you this. How does So if there's there's usually some like, you know, I don't want to say rules But there's like some guidelines you're typically following along with the history of this stuff where like You want to stay true to the the actual beat and how the people who, you know, were originally playing it how to fills usually Fit into the dbeat like I know you said that it would typically, you know A song could start out with a fill, but is there any I don't say rule, but is is it typically common to like just put a fill in, you know at the end of the The the four bar, you know phrase and then just keep going or and what kind of fills would typically be played uh with the dbeat well, if interesting you say about the rules because you know, I Firmly believe that there are no rules, but that's another problem. Some people, you know, the punk police think there are rules, you know Um, and that was another sort of myth that I wanted to you know to to bust Which I go through a little bit again in, you know, like, um, my more Instructional videos about the dbeat. Yeah, but the fills. No, I mean the fills It's the obvious fills are going to be rudimental because that's how they were played by the young players, you know Basic 16th note flurries around the drum kit. Yeah Um, how you want to approach it? How long you want to do it? It's up to the individual, but The the fill factor doesn't really Have his part to play as much as the rhythmical part, you know, got it Yeah, I suppose, you know, then it's just a question of phrasing You know, the the other thing of course You know as drummers that web, you know highly Um, you know where highly in tune with what's going on with the drum parts But for your average listener, they don't hear things like what ride cymbal patterns play You know, whether you're even playing it on a ride cymbal or a hire or whatever They just hear the basic pulse Which is the thing we keep going back to that, you know, the original drummers played even With the hand following the bass drum, but that's what your average listener would hear anyway. So So providing that part is being You know, he's adhered to and so I go back to meaning the bass drum and snare to my mind That's the only rule, you know, yeah after that it's up to, you know It's whatever creatively you want to do so even if some somebody may say this A rule for fill For drum fills I would argue that point and say well, there isn't Yeah, I mean and what what that what happens if you do a different feel like okay great, you know There's you broke you broke a quote-unquote rule In a punk song. That's what it's all about. Um Now I I also I feel like this the d beat itself Obviously you said it crossed over and you hear it in different kinds of punk But I also think that people use it in like more in the world of like metal and hard rock and stuff I mean like I think of like motorhead Um, which I guess could Depend I mean there they could also fit into the world of punk, but I think you know what I mean They kind of cross into that heavy metal world, but um How does that In the punk world, how does that feel for to people? I mean again, it's like, what do you what do you do? There's no rules, but like, uh, how is that seen in the traditional punk world that it's being used in other heavy genres I mean I for me it's I think it would be great more d beat Well, well, okay, so well, you know, that's a an interesting point you've raised there But as Tez points out in my documentary and and this is why it's good to you know to speak to these people Is that it's big as influence when motorhead and uk sells So when he played, you know, his interpretation of a drum rhythm, he was getting it from that so You know as as I point out and I'll say here now, you know You know the rhythm did not You know like wasn't invented in punk. It's it goes, you know way further back But what I was trying to do was was to You know was to really Focus on this origins within punk, you know, and of course once I put the documentary out people were saying, you know Well, you know appears on this diamond head song and you know, this band from Belgium It's you know released a single in 1972 and I'm like, I know this, you know I've heard it on bilby underground songs and all sorts. Yeah You know, so we know that now go on to you know, back to what you're saying or asking, you know, where we get as a motorhead. Well you know motorhead Although, you know They were the only side themselves as a rock and roll band. We know that they they really, you know, they're But old was, you know, was heavy metal or heavy rock But they were kind of like and I you know, again, I remember this bad They were like the heavy metal band that it was okay for punks to like, you know Because they kind of got that punk thing going with them anyway, haven't they and They were, you know, I mean, let me, you know played a little bit for the damned and he was friendly with a lot of the punk bands and The punk bands, you know, like all like motorhead And so by the, you know, by the time of discharge um You know Releasing their records, you know, there's a big motorhead influence in there The the interesting point of it is is that, you know That when you listen to discharge, you don't listen to think they sound exactly like motorhead But these days when you hear bands, you know, it tends to be like when I hear like, you know, like newer db bands now, you know I just sort of think oh, they just sound like discharge And I sort of think well do something different with it, you know, yeah Take it somewhere, you know, this sounds four years old now. It's You know, try and do something different with it that which is why You know, I'm trying to do these other videos where I'm doing it in odd times Or just doing things that are more interesting and creative with the rhythm Yeah, totally, but that's why, you know, like you said, you're hearing a lot in metal because you know The likes of metallica and all the trash bands. Well, you know, they were really digging bands like discharge and gbh But of course they love motorhead and diamond head and iron maiden You know, so it it was all a melting pot from from the period really, I think yeah Yeah, that's a great way to put it and it's it's all it's all heavy and it's all building on top of each other and I think that it's one of those things where Now that people have heard you talking about it and heard the beat and hopefully watch the documentary you'll start to like Hear it more in songs and be able to point it out Whereas, you know, maybe before it kind of washed over you without really knowing the origin of this particular beat being its own particular style, um now, you know D beat itself um Is kind of I mean, I know it's a beat but I feel like it's considered a style of punk music. Is that correct? Like it's it's it's yes It's like there's d beat bands, right? That's right. So do the d beat bands typically only use songs that have this particular beat No, not necessarily no more than say, you know discharge did I mean If we go back to discharge, I mean as I pointed out those first three EPs, you know, pretty much cemented the style and sound sure, but after that Tess the drummer left Uh, and and you know, he's not Really played drums since you know, he's he's he's um Uh far more of a career as a guitarist and sometimes bass player. Yeah, and he's back in discharge now playing rhythm guitar You know, he doesn't play drums in the back um And so by the time that discharge made their What scene is there? you know that the really You know the pinnacle of of their style and sound they did an album called He and Nothing Seen Nothing Say Nothing which is about two years later about 1982 They have a different drummer now. He doesn't play the d beat that much in in in the discharge songs, you know who He tends to play more the other beat that we've you know talked about or the straighter rhythms So Now I don't know again whether that was the influence from what he heard in the guitar riff or whether that He was just felt, you know, like comfortable playing those rhythms So even in discharge, it's not just strictly d beat. Got it. Um, so yeah, these are the bands You know that I've come from it or you know now under the you know, like you said The flagship banner of db as a musical style I think that the key thing is they all refer to it strongly. Yeah But but it's not, you know, it's it's not 100 You know that it's the same way that You know, when you listen to reggae, it's not all one drop, you know, no no totally But you know if you're a reggae band, you know, you're gonna have some song where they're where you play Where the drummer will be playing one drop. It's just synonymous with the style of music Um, and that's about that's the same for db bands, you know, hmm. Yeah Interesting now and uh and like you said, um before because I want to take some time to talk about you personally and making the documentary in your background a little bit here as we kind of come to come close to the end but um You know, it's going on today, right? Are you happy with how the landscape of punk is these days? You know as a as a kind of an old school punk guy, um, what's your thoughts on the current world of punk? Well, I mean You know, I'm super happy to see that all these years on it's still going and it's stronger than ever you know You know, it's amazing really that you look at bands like, you know, green day And the life, you know, well, I mean green day in particular, you know, they're one of the biggest bands in the world You know, it's hey, I think a lot of the time people still see punk as some sort of underground, you know You know independent movement. Yeah, and that's still there, of course definitely But you know, it really is in that, you know, the veins of mainstream music And and that was the thing that you know, I found you know Interesting but also frustrating with with all of this was that I saw, you know The whole thing we've been interested in doing something with the db more as you know as a an educator was I was sometimes going into, you know, like a You know, like a drum summer camp and I'd mention something about the db and you know, the drummers would be there So looking like what, you know, a bit perplexed and I'd be well But you don't know the db and I thought well, you probably don't, you know, it's it's a bit of a specific thing Yeah, but now but then I also thought well, why do you know? I mean, you know, you know, you're a drummer you and you're a drummer with You know a certain amount of ability and skills You wouldn't want to be like that and not know what a samba is or you know, as I said, or uh, You know, like, uh, you know, like or a reggae one drop or whatever, you know So why wouldn't you know a db because to me it's kind of now becoming a bit of a bread and butter part or rock drumming Yeah, it almost seems like people would have already You know, you inherently play it like if you're learning drums and you're going down a page of beats That someone wrote out like it's likely It's likely on there where you've learned it, but you just maybe didn't know what you were doing or the back I mean really, you know, like, you know, all of The fundamental punk drum and it's rock drumming. It's just you know, all the the typical things you would You know learn in uh, you know, run of the mill sort of rock drumming book or whatever The thing is is that, you know, what differentiates the way you take it somewhere else The energy the speed Intention, you know, and the aggressiveness. Yeah, for sure. That's what makes it different And I think you mentioned that at the beginning, you know, it's it. That's what Separates it from being the sort of, you know, like a typical meat and potato style of rock drumming Um, so you're right, of course, you know, everybody will play that, you know, in a sort of, you know, their first probably 10 or 15 uh based on variation patterns in simple four four rhythms but uh You know that that after that it's it's it's how you use it how you adopt it, isn't it? I mean, you know, you could you could say that the bass the bass pattern and the snare pattern is what's become, you know a prevalent in drum and bass You know at a different tempo It's it's the same thing, but that's drum and bass, you know, doesn't sound like the you know, it's exactly the same rhythm Yeah, and that's the coolest thing about drums is how we are uh as drummers So, you know We take our, you know, these things that we just hit like these four or five drums in front of us and can make so many different things with With different tempo and different, you know style and different limbs being involved. Um, so I mean if if you play that, you know, rather a more modern tempo and play it in the shuffle, you know, and you go That You know, it's essentially the same pattern, but you know, suddenly then you're into, you know, uh, you know Like a strong r&b by Yeah, that's a funny way to look at it now. So, um, you teach lessons as well So let's talk about you for a little bit here. So so people can obviously take They can learn from you because you clearly what I like is that you, um Um, I like you mentioned before that a lot of, you know, punk drummers would just get their drums And then within a couple weeks they're in a band and playing out live, you know thrashing and stuff and that's the coolest part about punk music But you are obviously a guy who has clearly A lot of knowledge and as a great teacher So why don't you maybe give us a little bit of your background and some tell us about some of the people you've played with Because there's some big names Yeah, well to begin with you've described you've described me We were you were saying, you know, I mean I was one of those, you know, got my drum kit Was in the band and thrashing out, you know, as soon as I could That's the thing that I loved about that form of music. It's, you know, it's it's it's something that anybody can Outtake it, you know, yeah But it's really about where you take it, isn't it? It's about where you take it Um, you know, and if all you're ever doing is just thrashing about or whatever then You know to me after a while You know, I wouldn't have wanted to continue like that. I wanted to develop I wanted to learn about different styles of music. I wanted to play different styles of music That that that was something that really interested in me and um, and I wanted it to be pretty extreme And I suppose that comes from, you know, the initial punk affiliation that I was introduced to with the punk and the reggae, you know Yeah, so You know, so that was something that I was big on um, but I You know where I live because I come from You know, Anglesey in north Wales, which is a bit of the back end of you know, of nowhere So to speak it's you know, it's a lovely place for Um, you know, it wasn't somewhere that's a hotbed for you know, rock and roll, you know, certainly not punk Yeah Yeah, and um, you know, so there was there was no teachers there I mean, I would have loved, you know to about guidance about the teacher I mean, my you know, my thirst for knowledge was you know Was it was great, you know, but I just had to do like a lot of people from that period Where I just had to try and learn myself listening to records, you know, trying to play parts forming the band playing with other people um I'm basically I you know, I took it from that and uh I mean, I started playing the drums because of the dam that that was my You know, that was my moment, you know, watching the dam don't tell me And seeing rats scabies and of course 20 years later. I ended up playing for him. So I was gonna say that's that's a pretty full circle Kind of thing because there's a lot of cool pictures of you playing with the the damned Yeah, and so I've ended up playing with a lots of those bands. It started up with, you know, when I first got into my first touring and Band, which was a band called English dogs And then I played with a band called sacrilege and these were more sort of second-wave bands that, you know That come from the likes of discharge and stuff like that, you know, so we're talking the sort of mid the mid 80s here Uh, and then I ended up, you know, like fast forward with the number of years, you know Joining the dam and then I played for the singer morrisi And you know, I played for new york dolls killing joke Uh, I played for sham 69 cockney rejects Uh, uh, last year one of the greatest ones I had the two years ago. I played for hr from bad brains So that was an amazing, you know, an absolute amazing experience for me, you know, because I can't emphasise enough how much I love bad brains and how influential they were so Uh, so I've got to play for a lot of cool bands that I grew up liking You know, there's been a lot of other bands that I've worked with and played for and done sessions and tours with but Keeping within the punk frame, which is what we're talking about here really Uh, you know, they'd be some of the You know, the more known names. Oh, I played for conflict And and I played I did a world tour with steve ignorant from crass where we Did a whole tour playing in an exclusive Crass set, you know, wow. So that was all amazing as well and all Very different styles of drumming, you know, I mean I could do a whole show on that, you know You know, the rascabie style of drumming, which is very much, you know Coming from keith moon uh to ginger baker, you know, who and cream style Those style that style of drummer to to killing joe, which is much more punk and like, you know, heavy disco and heavy dub um You know The crass style drumming it's like a cross between boys brigade snare drumming and and jazz and rock ability You know, yeah, they've all got completely different touches And then of course I played for the prototype punch really, you know with new york dolls, you know Where there's a lot of swagger um You know and then playing with bands like conflict and you know and sacrilege, which is much more the more brutal hard core style of drum playing Yeah, man. Well, it's cool that you have the ability obviously from your, you know, you've played for a very long time, but you kind of Uh, clearly you you enjoy learning about your craft and knowing what you're doing where you can um, you know To be a professional High-level drummer you kind of need to do that and i'm sure you could not that you'd really want to but you could sit behind a pop star and Hold your own and play perfectly. Well, just because you've got such a good foundation. Um as a as a working touring Session studio drummer. Um, I'm sure you can play with anyone Yeah, an interesting point with that was when I when I joined morris that kind of almost was it I mean, you know, he's not a pop star in a sense in in what you know in that term But he is very much a star and you know an icon and a legend and um You know, when you put when I played that gig that required all of that, you know I mean, you know some of his songs, you know, that they're almost close to pop songs You know the beautifully crafted simple little poppy songs. Yeah, but he does rock out You know, he has you know, they're in moments in the set You know where it gets quite rocky. I mean the band that I played in which were You know the long-term musicians at the time with a bunch of rockabilly musicians, you know I mean, you know, they lived and breathed rock of it But they were doing the same thing, you know, so, you know, you you would be for many you'd be playing a song that's You know, quite rocky not as rocky is what, you know, I could know what could play Yeah, oh, you know, oh, yeah, but but rock, you know rocking out, you know, quite heavy But the next thing you're playing at the, you know, like a song that's kind of more rooted in a ballad where you can see people In tears, you know, in the audience And then you might play a song that's kind of got a more typical rockabilly shuffle feel You know, I was always pointing out about the d beat and the r&b thing Yeah, um, for instance so Yeah, and I enjoy that challenge because, you know, I'm not, you know, like I'm not just about sort of like, you know, the punk playing. I mean, I like the extremity, you know, I mean I like, you know, I like Working out on my jazz playing You know, I love reggae playing and when I went and did that too with hey ja from bad brains It was it was a, you know, pretty much an exclusive reggae set, you know Yeah And so, you know, I love that and and and actually, you know, at one point, you know Like I I played with Kenny joker the week later. I was playing with you your dolls quite different drumming really Even though both the band you you would put into the sort of, you know, the the punk banner, you know, totally I mean the the the end all be all kind of like takeaway that I get is like, you know Um, you're a drummer, you know, and I mean like that's that's right You'll you'll play the for the gig and I think that's what but there's also a side of it That's cool when there's a guy who's like, no, I only play the dbeat or I only play Thrash metal. I only play double bass and I'm not playing with, you know A singer songwriter, but I think for you for your Example of just your your career you've done a lot of awesome stuff and um, I highly recommend people watch your documentary which I will share it's it's it's not You know two hours long, it's it's relatively short I mean you can kind of throw it up on youtube and just watch it and uh, I loved every minute of it and um, I am just Super happy to have had you on the show and kind of you know talk to someone like you who we haven't really gone Like I said earlier, we haven't gone into the punk world on this show very much Um, and I think there'll be more to come down the road with punk and metal and reaching out to other genres and then also going to Yeah, classical rudimental drumming and you know the civil war will cover all kinds of stuff but um On that note man spike, I appreciate you taking the time to do this and we've got a pretty far time difference, so I'm glad we could make it work. Um, and Thank you my friend. I appreciate you being here Yeah, well, thank you for having me and uh, you know, I've really enjoyed it and Just to let you know your listeners know if they want to check out more on me It's you know spike t smith.com is my website And I'm just you know spike t smith on youtube or facebook or you know instagram or whatever And uh, and just to finish off with that as a point of interest, you know currently what you're really what you're mentioning there with the differences I'm now, you know, I'm playing in the death metal band. Cool So, you know, that's been that that's another interesting curveball, you know Uh, but uh, but yeah, you know, so thank you. I've really enjoyed myself back So thank you and that and I hope that you know people do check out the You know, not just the documentary but the follow-up bits have done afterward because that's what I'm interested in Is where where it can be taken to you know, absolutely I I think it's I don't want to say funny, but I think it's just great that like for a guy who plays You know a lot of like aggressive music and it's just you know Really into heavy stuff that you know, I feel like instantly we got along and just as drummers Very approachable and friendly guy. Um, so I think that's just the beauty of music is that people can you know Just hit it off right away as drummers and um, and obviously I love punk music But you know, I'm sure you'd get along with a hardcore jazz drummer Just as much who has no interest in punk just because of our our shared interests And that's the the best part of being a drummer Absolutely Awesome, great. Thank you spike. I appreciate you being here. Cheers bats If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning