 Good morning and welcome to this week's edition of Encompass Live. I am your host, Krista Burns, here at the Nebraska Library Commission. Encompass Live is the Commission's weekly online event. Yes, we are a webinar. You can call us that. We won't be offended. We embrace it here. Or we cover anything that may be of interest to librarians. The show is free and open to anyone to watch as our recordings. We do record the show every week and then our archives are posted onto our website, so you can go and watch those there. We also include any PowerPoint slides, as you're seeing this morning, any links that might be mentioned during the show. All that is included in our show notes afterwards. We do the show live every Wednesday mornings at 10 a.m. Central Time. But as I said, you can just check out the recordings if you're unable to join us here on Wednesday mornings. And we do all sorts of things here. Presentations, interviews, book reviews, mini training sessions. Basically, if it is library related, we are welcome and want to have it on the show and share it with everyone. We have Nebraska Library Commission staff that sometimes do presentations and we do bring in guest speakers as we have this morning. On the line with us is Jez Mendeen. Hi, Jez. Hello. She's west of us out in Idaho. She's been on the show before. And she'll probably be on again. We're working on another session potentially, coming up later in the year. But she's going to talk to us. She's the director there at their district library, Portland District Library, which is in Chubbock, Idaho. And they've done something which not many libraries have done, I know. It's becoming popular or something to do. And either some of us have done it with their entire collection or sometimes just partial collection, but getting away from Dewey and as Jez so eloquently is putting it, killing Dewey. So I'm just going to hand over to you to take it away and tell us what you guys did there. All right. Well, thank you very much for having me. My name is Jez Mendeen. I'm the director at the Portland District Library in Chubbock, Idaho. I've been here about four years and we have been working very hard to redefine what public libraries mean to our community. So today I'm here to talk about how we killed Dewey. First of all, I'm going to start off by explaining a little bit about who we are. And we are a small library in Chubbock, Idaho. We are outside of Pocatello in southeastern Idaho. We qualify as a small and rural library. We have about 12,000 people in our patron database, and we have 22,000 people in our population area. Our population area does share with a city library. The city of Pocatello has its own city library. So the majority of people in our population area are actually within their city boundaries. So we do have 12,000 users in our database. We have 13 employees. Most of them are part time. At the time that we killed Dewey, we had 46,000 items and 6,000 of those were nonbooks like CDs, movies, puppets, video games, board games and things like that. The biggest thing that we came to decide when I took over about four years ago is that we really needed to define who we were. We kind of didn't really have a theme. There was a general lack in strategic planning regarding our definition of self. As I mentioned before, we do share the area with the city library. We also share the area with an academic library. Idaho State University is all of 15 minutes away from us, and they have a very large research library. The city of Pocatello has Marshall Public Library. They are a large traditional public library that offers traditional public library services. So here we were. We were littler. We kind of were just bumping along, but we didn't really have a focus and a goal. So we decided that we needed to reinvent who we were and what our place was in the community. And we decided that we wanted to be the fun library. We wanted to really break tradition. We wanted to do things differently. We wanted to explore different ways of providing meaningful interaction and space and activities for our community of users. So after thinking about that, we decided that we needed to really make some huge changes to mark ourselves as being completely different from everybody else in the area. I'm going to talk a little bit about our users because we kind of had this amorphous place. Most people who needed academic research went to ISU or need a traditional public library services would go to Pocatello. So our users were browsers. They don't use the catalog. They typically don't have computers at home. They don't really understand about searching very well. They are physical browsers. They like to maneuver through the collections and explore the library. Most of our users are primarily fiction users. They love their mysteries and their westerns and romances and things like that. And we are very much on this side of the digital divide. I don't know how many of you saw the Pew report that came out a couple of years ago that showed that the slowest broadband in the entire country was in southeastern Idaho. And we definitely have some infrastructure problems. Because of that, as I mentioned before, the majority of our users don't have computers at home. We're seeing a large trend that is skipping desktops and laptops altogether and migrating to smartphones and tablets. So because of this digital divide issue, we didn't feel that it was fruitful to really invest a lot in offering a significant amount of online services. So we wanted to change things so that we could enable what our users were doing. And that was using the physical location in a very physical way. So our inspiration really came from visiting the anything libraries in Denver. And we went as a group. There was six directors from the library consortium of Eastern Idaho, which is 24 libraries here. We all went to Denver and we toured and visited all of the anything libraries. Anything is pretty famous for redefining themselves and implementing the bisect subject headings. And bisect is the classification scheme that is used by book stores. Maricopa County in Arizona was the very first library in the country to do that. Anything did the same thing and they really kind of put themselves on the map because they were very prolific with their marketing and publication of that change. So we went and visited. And as we went through this process, I really looked at our our collections. We definitely had declining circulation. We had really overcrowded shelves. Everything was really chaotic. There really wasn't a whole lot of new and interesting things that had been coming in and they're really awesome. Interesting books were pretty much hidden away in all of this tremendous amount of clutter. And because it was overcrowded and unused, we felt like we really needed to make some changes. So what did we do? Well, we studied the bisect headings and we decided that some of it just really didn't fit for Idaho. For example, Idaho is very active. We are all outdoors peoples. We love to be outside. We love to hunt. We love to hike. We love to camp. We love to fish. And again, getting back to the digital divide, there's not a great deal of internet activities that pull us into the home. So as a result of all of this outdoor stuff that we do with gardening and preserving and just being outside all the time, we needed to modify the bisect subject heading. So the best example of this is that we pulled anything that we classified as an outdoor activity outside of sports. So in bisect, camping and hunting and tracking and hiking and fishing and archery and all those sorts of things are under sports. But in Idaho, if you ask the common person, what sport do they like? They'll say basketball, baseball, things like that and kind of gloss over the fact that camping is classified as a sport. So we pulled those things out and we made a subject heading and we titled it outdoors. And all of the things that people do in Idaho outside was put into that. So that was a big change that we did. We did a few other minor modifications to make it more tailored to our community. But by and large, we just stuck with bisect. So we did make our own headings though, cribbed from the bisect classification. So one of the things that we discussed was that Dewey really made sense to us as librarians, library professionals. We understand where to go in the Dewey ranges in order to find materials. But that really doesn't make a lot of sense for our users. You know, we type type type into the computer when they ask something and then we give them three or four different ranges. So for example, if somebody is coming in and they want to learn about keeping chickens or keeping bees, we might give them things in animals. We might give them things in insects. We might give them things in construction. But with our classification, what we did was pull all those things together. So all the chicken books, even about chicken feeding, chicken hatching, building chicken housing, they're all together under farm animals. Same thing with bee keeping. So we really kind of looked at that because we felt that giving people three different locations to go in the library with these nonsensical numbers just really didn't work very well for anybody. And that reading words on labels and having very clear delineations of where things were would be easier for people to think about. So here is an example of our categories that we did. And again, we primarily used bicep, but there is a couple of changes. One of the things that you'll notice here is that we have our categories, then we have our subcategories. So under art, we have film, illusion, music, and you'll see there's a couple of musics. Well, that's because there's a general, there's a how to, and then there's a sheet. So in some cases, we needed to create subcategories that we felt broke down those those subjects. Another example down here is crafts and hobbies under crochet. You might want to specifically look for Afghan books or sweaters or making granny squares. So we felt that we needed to break these down. Now, you'll also notice that we have staff assigned in these columns. And that's because we went ahead and we gave each of these nonfiction areas to a staff member. So we have specific staff that are responsible for determining what goes into these collections, how often it's shelf read, how often it's weeded, and what we actually purchase. And in doing this, we really created subject specialists. So people were getting used to the collections. They understood what was in their collection, what they wanted to buy, and how it related to our users. And we also have an example in our spreadsheet of a spine label format. Now, I am happy to give copies of this to anybody who is interested. You can email me. It's in Google Docs, and I will just simply create you your own copy and then you can edit it and do with it as you see fit. So that is something that I'm happy to do for all of us. But this is an example of our nonfiction categories with our subsequent subject specialists and the spine label formats. And we'll get back to labels in just a minute. So like I was talking about, we definitely focused with nonfiction first. We ran some user surveys and we would ask people, you know, we're thinking about putting things in a genre order. How do you feel about this? And the majority of our users weren't exactly sure what nonfiction was. So since we had declining nonfiction use anyway and most of our readers were fiction users, we decided that we could completely revolutionize how we were going to project nonfiction. So that was our target, was doing nonfiction. We focused on the adult nonfiction first and then we focused on the juvenile nonfiction section. And what we did with the juvenile nonfiction section, which has been tremendously successful, was match it to the school projects. My children's librarian is a liaison to our school district curriculum committee. So she went and had conversations with the curriculum committee to determine what projects would be so that we knew when the kids were coming in for the state's projects, all the states were together when they were coming in for the president projects, all the presidents were together, so on and so forth. And that's been really, really helpful because parents come in and they're frustrated and their kid needs to get six or seven different things for a report. Well, they come in and they say, my kid's doing a project on biographies. Well, we already know because we've been talking to the curriculum at our local school district and we can send the parents and the kids straight over, get up without even looking at the computer and typing up call numbers or anything, get up and physically walk the users to the location in the collection and say, here are all of the biographies for your age group, for your project. And that's been wonderful. It's been just hugely successful with the kids and with the parents. Okay, so initially we had a plan A, which was to kind of go section by section. So how are we going to do this? What we were going to do, we had this beautiful plant and we had this neat little range of shelves that was right next to it. So we cleaned it all off and we decided that we were going to just slowly but surely pull everything together and we were going to start with gardening. So we were going to put all the gardening books next to this beautiful plant. We were going to pull them all out of the collection, relabel them and then put them there. The next we were going to move on to automotive. We had already gotten rid of our reference collection but we left the books on the shelves and the majority of them were the automotive books. So we were just going to relabel them all, leave them there and call that the automotive section. So we were going to pull one heading at a time and we were going to move those things and just shift and shuffle collections as we often do in libraries anyway in order to make this transition happen. However, we kind of had a change of plans. My board approved a major renovation project in my library and we emptied the building in order to re-carpet and repaint and what that meant is that we really got to reinvent the wheel and start from scratch. So what we did is we just rented a couple of containers and completely emptied the library. We boxed things in rough order so we already knew that we wanted to have our headings and we knew that we needed all the history books together. So as we went through and boxed the collections for storage we tried to the best of our ability to box them together either because we knew they were in dewey ranges and therefore and were in rough order and then added anything else that we wanted to fit into our collections. It was really really chaotic but in the end it was really really worth it. So what did we do to change? Well we definitely did a lot of planning. The library was founded in 1958 it was full of tons of chunks. I mean we still had stuff that had been donated by academic libraries and public libraries from all over the place to fill our collections. We did heavily. We weeded almost 4,000 non-fiction books alone. We removed the squid cookbooks because we did not feel that was going to be of interest to our users. We pulled out all the tech books from the 80s. We had all these books on the mosaic browser which completely irrelevant for our users. We had some really awesome stuff that talked about the development of wireless telephones. I don't know if any of you remembered when you got a wireless telephone in the 80s that had an antenna that was like 16 inches long. But we had all this really awesome stuff but we pulled it all and got rid of it. In that year we also created our subject headings and subcategories and we planned out how we were going to do our labels and we also really planned our shelves and our locations. So we thought long and hard about each subject that we had and where we wanted it to be. So if you look here you can see our map of our shelf ranges. We decided that we were going to have X number shelves of gardening, X number shelves of crafts and hobbies, X number shelves of science and we redefined our ranges here in order to accommodate for those shelves. Now what this means though is that we chose specific sizes for each collection and those sizes are permanent in their size. So you can't grow gardening beyond its shelves. You can't grow religion beyond its shelves. So what that means is if you buy 15 books you're going to have to pull a subsequent amount of books to make sure that you've got space. And we did that on purpose because we didn't want to reinvent the problem we had with all of this tons of clutter. We needed to have these sections. We needed to have everything very organized and tight and also make it a little bit more high turn, right? We've got the academic library right down the road. We have the very large public library down the road. So we needed to be a little bit more cutting edge and making sure that our things were constantly rotating in and out and if something doesn't get used it gets withdrawn. So as a result, if a hardback book doesn't circulate in five years it's withdrawn. If a paperback doesn't circulate in two years it's withdrawn and then we replace it with other things that are more current, more relevant, so on and so forth. Now you'll notice around the edges here where we do have some genres for fiction and I will get into that a little bit later. I just want to point it out while we're looking at this slide and you'll also see the majority of this stuff down here is fiction and those are still in alpha order. Our long-term plans are to genreize as it were the fiction but we haven't got there yet but we are doing a pilot project with our paperbacks and we'll talk a little bit more about that in just a bit. So why did we do it? Well like I said before we really wanted to get away from the difficulty in trying to communicate to our users how 600 relates to animals. Instead we wanted to create these categories in these discrete locations that enables our community to browse to use the space for their personal information needs to be able to explore and wander and instead of having these long dewey decimal numbers which are confusing but instead having discrete categories that better fits what is relevant to our users because we did invent our headings to match where our users are in what they like to do and what they like to read. So that was our major motivation for doing this. It did take quite a while. We were closed for two weeks in the renovations and we actually were open for we had a portion open so people could still use the children's room in the hallway when the main library was closed and when the children's room and the hallway were being redone the main library was open so we did still provide some rudimentary service for our users but essentially we were kind of down and out for about two weeks while we were doing all of the major carpeting and painting. Unboxing took a few days beyond that and again we did continue to provide service and it took us about eight weeks to relabel and I think that it would have taken us less time if we had dedicated staff but again we have 13 people many of them are part-time and only about three or four of us were actually doing the relabeling and reorganization work and that was in addition to our regular duties. So we had people who were doing programming and then when they weren't doing programming and had an extra hour they were relabeling collections so it definitely took us a lot longer I think that with the size of our collections we could have been done much more quickly if we had dedicated staff or volunteers set aside but we did not because again the massive renovation project with emptying library and bringing everything back was really unexpected for us and it was a benefit but it did definitely change the way that we had planned stuff. It was a little bit laborious it was definitely chaos a lot of our users were just confused about what was going on because there were people and carts and labels and stickers and sheets and boxes and all this kind of stuff everywhere as we were moving around but at the same time users are incredibly patient when you explain to them that we are trying to do something that's different and we want to make it better and we're really excited to show you and just give me 15 minutes to try and sort this out so I can find you what you need. Of course since nonfiction was also very underused we didn't have a ton of people that were actually asking for nonfiction books as we were reinventing the wheel. I think that it will be much more difficult for us to do this with fiction when we get to that point because fiction is so highly used but anyways so it did take us quite a bit of time. As a result as we were working through this process like I said we deleted approximately 2000 and this light is old to about 4,000 nonfiction books when we were doing this so that was a huge amount of nonfiction that we weeded. We also purchased just as many new nonfiction books so this past year the majority of our collections budget has been going to renovate nonfiction which has been just tremendous so at the time of this us these slides were made we had 98 adult nonfiction books and 38 600 juvenile nonfiction books and tons of new labels and here in this next slide now you can see an example of what our labels look like so we have our major heading in this case science and then we have our subheading which is in this case biology and then we had author and then we have title so everything is still in author order and then it's in title order alphabetically so you can see here with these biology books that the authors are in alphabetical order and then after if we have multiple authors or I'm sorry multiple books by the same author then the titles are in alphabetical order so we still have that consistency with the alphabet alphabet it's just that now we have those primary categories ahead so what happened well this was hugely received by our users people were just unbelievably happy with it and it's so much easier for the staff as well so when somebody comes in and they come to the desk and they say to us I need a book on Parkinson's disease instead of us breaking eye contact from our user and looking at our computer screens and doing a bunch of typing and scribbling down some nonsensical numbers we can smile continue to maintain eye contact get up from the desk and walk them to the physical location in health so it is really helped with our customer service because we're not delaying people while we look things up or trying to explain how to look stuff up in the catalog because it's much easier for everybody to just get up and walk the user to the area that they need it is definitely improved brows ability we often find people just wandering around looking at stuff looking at family looking at do it yourself looking at crafts and hobbies looking at transportation at the train books it just really has enabled people to use the library and explore and that's really what we're about right cultivating the exploration of stuff and our users can come in they can sit in couches and chairs and they can just explore our stuff and that's been really really wonderful here's an example of what our stuff looks like so this is again this is a picture of science you can see that we have our primary category of science and then we do have our subheadings we've got these neat little shelf markers that have triangular popouts for our subgenres like any classification scheme we've got our general books first and then we have our subcategories in alphabetical order after that now another thing that we did is we again really looked hard at the space that we wanted to devote to each category and we allow on every single shelf room for either a sign or a display so we are marketing our stuff with nice display stands and space it's very easy for users to come and pull things it's very easy for staff to shelve things and then we just pull pretty looking books that we put to try and cultivate use to draw people into that subject into that collection and this has been widely received and again if staff order quantities of books for their area they are expected to weed quantities of books so that we don't create clutter that we just spent all this time removing so what happened well as we we're labeled we did have to change the catalog records and it was very very easy all we did was open the record on the items are on the bib depending on where we were what the focus was and we just removed the call number right so instead of having 6 36.95 we just typed in what that call number was using words and spaces it was very very easy to do and like I said there was a handful of us doing it we didn't have everyone doing it because we were still providing public services we were making these transitions it was very easy to change the cataloging records and print new labels in Polaris we created shelf locations for each category and I assume most ILS's would do this but what that enabled us to do is pull statistics on each of these sections so we can see you know is history really worth the amount of space it has is it getting the use that we thought it would and that's really nice so that we can see what we need to may grow and what we need to maybe change so here's an example of what our cataloging records look or our opac records look like now so you can see that this was how the West was worn and our category for it our classification and call number as it was art fashion author title so instead of having a call number in Dewey we've got our classification right here plain language books tells you the shelf location which is the major category and that relates to the physical map and the physical location of the collections its status and its item type another example hauntings from the Snake River plane metaphysics paranormal hauntings shelf location in this case is new nonfiction because it's a brand new book to us again status in material type and again another one a history of cemeteries in polka tello history us Idaho author title again another new nonfiction book but this is this is what we're getting at here is that our call numbers aren't Dewey but their actual real words that people can understand here's an example of a junior jay for junior fiction states Idaho again many of our subjects in junior nonfiction relate to the curriculum projects so all the states books are together you can see right here junior states Idaho another example junior jobs because they have a major project on jobs now we did not do author and title breakdowns because many of our users of that age area are browsers and we don't beat ourselves up about making sure that everything is organized we just put all the jobs together we do put in state order and in country order but with certain things we just kind of just lump them all in and then they can look at all the bird books they can look at all the insect books all the dinosaur books they're all together and we're not beating ourselves up or we're trying to make everything very minute in those sections and then a final example here's another one for a junior record junior presidents bush because again this is a major project in the curriculum okay so well what happened we had a significant circulation increase 250 percent increase in nonfiction circulation within the first year a 250 circulation of nonfiction books that is tremendous in a community that is fiction readers all of a sudden nonfiction books are neat and fun and important and easy to find and it floored all of us when we pulled this for comparison and determined how much increase we had we've had a 90 increase in our circulation overall and over a year out we're about a year and a half out now from this change we have still had just a tremendous circulation increase so like i said earlier we have 12 12,000 people in our patron database we average about 10,000 circulations a month and i think that's pretty good compared to how many people we've got with cards and how many books were circulating the other thing is that our biography section did increase because if it was about a person even if it was an autobiography or what have you we just stuffed it into the biography section because it was easier for everybody that way staff reactions at first not everybody was on board but after seeing all of this and seeing how it was working and seeing how easy it was to find stuff everybody is now on board and of course our users just absolutely love it and people are starting to ask us when we're going to be doing this with fiction because they want to have all of their genres together all right some pros better browsing for users by far it is super easy to shelf read because you don't have to try and train people to understand where these decimals work relate them to the deweys cutters watermarks you don't even have to worry about any of that it's just simply category subcategory author title it's very easy to shelf read and it's super easy to find things too because things are it's pretty obvious where stuff is now we have a physical location for all related items and it's really helped us kind of define and hone our collection so if somebody wants something and we don't have a section for it well we ask ourselves do we really need to buy it is that's maybe something we shouldn't interlibrary loan and see how it goes because if we don't have a category or a place for it maybe it's not something that we need to buy for our users so it's really helped us figure out what is meaningful to our community some cons there is additional work for ordering right everybody has to know where that thing is going when they get it and in our book order workflow there is a place now for where that item is going to go so if I buy a crochet book I'm going to put in that sheet that it is a granny square book or it is a sock book for knitting or it is a history book in Idaho because we need to identify where this is going so that when the item gets here and our team starts to process and catalog they know exactly what to put on the label and where to route that item and the subject specialist has already chosen and selected so there is a little that extra step it's not just a matter of downloading the doing number from OCLC or what have you you actually have to know in advance when you buy the book where you want it to go in the collection there's a little bit of extra work for cataloging again they've got a look at the spreadsheet they've got to see where people have decided that item needs to go and then donations become it's kind of interesting because we've got the one person who does donations but at the same time everybody pours through them and then they're claiming oh my gosh I want this on hiking and outdoors oh my gosh I need to have this in places because we needed a book on touring Italy so on and so forth we've got people who are much more interested in figuring out as a team where the books are going to go so and sometimes we've got staff members that fight over stuff you know do they want that in places or do they want that in history because it might go in both we do have some duplication not very often but if we get two books on hiking trails we might put one in outdoors and hiking and we might put another in places Idaho so we do have a little bit of duplication but we don't intentionally buy duplicates for two locations it's only special exceptions it's if it's an Idaho author or if it's related to the state that we'll get duplicates and put them in both places because we actively collect for Idaho books and Idaho authors and if they are like hiking or what have you we might have them in places as well as outdoors but generally we just choose one place for things to go okay so some of our next steps we've done that pilot project like I showed you earlier with our paperbacks we've been training our users that all the romance paperbacks are here all the western paperbacks are here all the mystery paperbacks are here and that was kind of training wheels for doing this with fiction with the fiction we do need to choose what genres are relevant to our community and we're still working on that because it may be that we have a we're definitely gonna have a general fiction area and we might end up putting horror books in there which is less interesting to our community and then having a Christian fiction section because that is of greater interest to our community so we're still working on focus groups and staff time to figure out what are going to be the most popular genres that we need to really develop for our fiction collections now we've decided that all authors will be in one place so if you've got an author that writes across multiple genres we're gonna choose the genre they most write in and all the books by that author are going to be in that one place so when you've got people coming in saying where are the Danielle Steel books we can point them to romance and maybe there's some difference but by and large all of her books are in that all the books she's writing are gonna be together so that when you've got the people who come in and they ask for their favorite author you can still get up and walk them to one location okay so well what do you need well you definitely need to weed I mean gut your collections really cold the dead fall so that you're only focusing on what is relevant to your community relevant to your planning relevant to what you want to present and relevant to what your users are going to use just get rid of anything you've got questions about because you can always get another copy buy another book get another section and you know be flexible because you might have a whole section that's meaningful to you that has absolutely no use whatsoever to your users a year and a half later we are still making some changes we just fractured social or I'm sorry social science and we now have folklore or mythology and self-help and we got rid of a ton of other stuff because it just wasn't circulating so be flexible really look at what you're doing but weed heavily create your categories that are relevant to your community I think it's really important to identify what is going to be a value because there's some stuff that are going to be a value to us that may not be a value to somebody else so really look at what kind of community you have what programs are successful what people are volunteering for what initiatives and overarching plans are being done by your curriculum committees by your your community groups and really tailor your collections to that I think that's really important because it's only going to add value to your community and your place and really lay out a good plan make sure that you've got all your variables considered you know make sure you know exactly how you're going to go about making this change because it is a tremendous amount of work I think you will reap benefits if this is going to work for you in your library but you've really got to think long and hard about all the different pieces of the plan what's going to get moved first where's this going to go how are you going to fill these when are you going to relabel what are you going to do about the catalog lots of different pieces with making this kind of a move so give yourself time to really plan it took us a year of planning before we actually did this so give yourself lots and lots of time to really dot the i's and cross the t's before you move forward so what do you need well you're definitely going to need storage space even if you do it section by section you're going to have to have some sort of staging so if that means that you have a bay of ranges in your back office area where you can shelf several shelves of books while you're making changes you're going to have to come up with storage space like I said we end up renting two giant semi containers because we had to empty the entire library furniture books the whole line yards everything had to go but if you're going section by section you're still going to need that storage space you will need so many labels and this is what got us label covers we didn't even consider the fact that we were going to need reams and reams and reams of label covers and golly those things are really expensive and that was just completely unexpected for us we didn't even consider how the cost of relabeling all these books you're going to need lots of boxes so start working with community partners and grocery stores maybe get u-haul to donate we had our local u-haul donated tons of boxes to us we had the local liquor store was saving all of their boxes for us we also had an automotive store saving boxes for us so start getting your community partners involved because you can ask people for donations and people are often very willing to do these sorts of things if you give them enough go ahead and again this gets back to storage space you're going to have to store the boxes you're going to have to put this stuff somewhere and of course come up with a plan a plan for keeping stuff organized how are you going to keep track of these box books or the shelf books how are you going to keep track of all the things as they're moving through the workflow so really think about that again and draw maps make pictures do outlines whatever is going to be meaningful to your organization so how are you going to get some buy-in well take field trips to libraries that have done this propose a pilot project perhaps take an underused non-fiction area and just say you know what this is going to be our pilot we're going to use this maybe pull out all the true crime books maybe pull out all the biography books we already have these sorts of things in different places so just make a pilot pilot and see how it goes and see how users react see how staff react and then share the stories that you hear so talk to your board or your governing bodies about the different ways that you've heard of libraries there are success stories out there there are three libraries in the state of Idaho that have killed Dewey and have success stories Maricopa County there's lots of people that'll talk to you there it's a wonderful friendly library system anything can then we're also very very receptive they would be just delighted to meet and talk with you or chat with you over the phone so share the success stories that you hear to get buy-in we are more than happy to talk and we've had a lot of people come and visit us and we will spend time with libraries who want to learn more about how we successfully killed Dewey so use the people who have already done this and have positive and negatives to share so that you can get buy-in and figure out what you want to do and what do you do when you hear that we've always done it that way well yeah but you know what changes inevitable except from the vending machine right so that means you've got to try new stuff got to figure out how to be relevant got to figure out how to keep up with the times so try something new what's the worst that could happen you put it all back well yeah okay so that's a ton of work but so be it you have to try you have to keep trying you have to keep initiating you have to keep thinking new thinking outside the box and doing good assessment and determining you know is this something that we want to do now a lot of people have also brought up the fact that they're teaching Dewey's in schools well I don't know about your state but I know that in my state most of the elementary and middle schools don't even have a librarian anymore they have volunteers so there's no Dewey being taught anywhere and if these kids do go to college they're going to be in a library of congress academic library and they're going to have to learn lc anyway so why not try something that may work for your users we do not want to torture people and have them have this huge wall of difficulty when they come into the library we want to be happy and put on a smiling face and create an environment that is comfortable and enjoyable and this is one way of trying to do that is so that people walk in and they see big signs with their area so they can just browse and explore and play and create and have fun these are all these things that we're trying to do and for us getting rid of Dewey and providing these sorts of common language words for classification was really a big trick for us so there's some things to think about with that but again you know figure out what is going to be good for you and good for your library okay so we still have eight minutes and please ask questions hello sorry yep i'm here great thank you jez yes we do have a bunch of questions that have come in of course and that's great as jezman said officially we go we go an hour we started a little after 10 today but we'll go as long as we need you to answer all the questions we do not get cut off here on our time as far as the session is concerned so we'll just go through the questions and try to answer all of them that we can a lot of basic questions anyway this is great I know this has been an issue that a lot of libraries have done it some have tried it some are very wary about trying it don't know like why should we things seem to be working fine or why can't we just do something different with the Dewey that we have I mean there's all different things you're mentioning finding libraries near you that do it we've actually had some here in Nebraska for you Nebraska people on the line I know that did it I know Seward Memorial Library is one of us that tried it that did it a few years ago I don't remember how it's gone since then it's been a while but just recently I also had some a library our Lovista public library the teen advisory board in their teen area switched so all the teens are participated and organized with it and I didn't we had the librarian from their their young adult librarian Lindsay Tomsu on the show talking about doing that in their teen section so testing it out in a small part of the library before going full on of the whole you know the whole thing oh and someone else just said oh Louise Alcorn who's in Iowa said North Liberty Iowa Library also did it so if you're in Iowa there's another option Jenny Garner there is a director and loves to talk about it so yes definitely I'd say do a google search on libraries getting rid of do your libraries and doing you probably find a lot that are out there okay let's just start with our questions that we have here then okay we're just gonna start at the top here we've got for are the nonfiction and biographies shelved by reading level in the in the juvenile nonfiction area have you done anything with the reading levels there yes and no we have AR levels in the children's room so we have three discrete areas in our library we have a children's library we have a teen room and then we have an adult area and we did that not only to split out the books for approximate reading level and project but also in order to create zones for noise so we have three doors and rooms for each of those areas and you know as you can imagine the children's room is absolute chaos and pandemonium and piano and play and laughing and playing and turtles and magnets and then we have the teen zone with gaming and legos and maker spaces and all this stuff and then we have the very quiet general section so we do have AR leveled books in the children's room and our children's librarian works very very hard to make sure that those things are identified in order to accommodate that in the teen room where the majority of our juvenile nonfiction is we do not because most of those are for curriculum purposes so they come in for a research project we do have some nonfiction in the children's room that are at AR level because we do have those requests where you know the kids need to read x number of nonfiction books at their reading level so we do that and as we have time we also put the AR level of all of our books we just write it in a pencil on the front cover but we actually go to the point of labeling and stickering those in the children's room because by the time they get to the teen room most of that stuff is curriculum based and we don't bother trying to put the AR reading levels on those right it's a different and that actually answers someone else's question from farther down that I saw her that wanted to know if your juvenile books are blended with the adults or separate and you just said you've got totally separate rooms for each teen children's and then all the other ones okay how do you differentiate between fiction and literature this is from way at the beginning when you were talking about we don't we absolutely don't because our users don't determine between fiction and literature right so you know we've got classic classical literature items in our fiction areas we do have a literature section in non-fiction and that is typically stuff on writing styles our grammar guides are in there short composition type stories that are not necessarily fiction are in there and that is another category that we're really looking heavily at because it is underused altogether it's just people are just not going there it's not of interest to our users so we're trying to figure out where in fiction that stuff needs to go so you know some of this classical stuff goes into its genres and we do have a general fiction section that we will be creating for stuff that really doesn't have a genre or authors that don't have a specific genre that they're a primary author in and we'll be putting stuff there as well but it we don't have a user base to really justify that sort of section and that is a section that is currently on the chopping block in our non-fiction because it's just not being used I think this is something I may have missed when you're talking earlier I was you know keeping up with questions and things paying attention to what your users are reading not just assuming and how they're looking at things and what they're looking for did you actually get input from the community like ask them to come and talk to you about it as well and share with how they thought they would want to find things or are you just doing this based on you talked to them anyways and they come in and just kind of anecdotally everyone collected what they'd always been how they'd been working with your users well we in Polaris we were able to create shelf locations for each category so I can pull stats I can go to my superstar Josh and say Josh I need the circulation statistics for social science and he can pull those for me so I can see and then I can compare well okay so we have you know 36 shelves of social science and we've got 21 shelves of outdoors but social science is getting no use and outdoors is through the roof we need to make some changes right Polaris statistics can tell you a lot yeah yeah because you know our users a lot of times if we stop and ask them you know can we get some input from you they don't they don't always know enough about what it is that that social science is I mean what is social science yeah your social scientists we know what social science is but if I go down the street to the Jackson's convenience store and ask the guys by an lottery ticket and say what is social science he's going to give me a look can be like what yeah so you know we needed to redefine that obviously and now that we are able to pull those statistics we can hone in on what is meaningful and what is not meaningful and this is still changing I mean we're still figuring out it's only a year and a half out and like I said literature is not being used it's time for us to figure out where to put that stuff that it will be used right yeah so here's another question from the group how much time did the change overtake change in the catalog and relabeling everything it took us about eight weeks for our collection and again I think it would have taken a lot less time if we had dedicated staff but there was like three or four of us that were doing it and we were doing it in addition to all of the rest of our duties and you also said that you had the whole intensive thing about having the whole library redone as well so was that at the same time I mean there you had like too many as like really while you wanted okay seemed like a lot going on yeah I mean it was just it was incredible it was it was really incredible and and as the only salaried person on the payroll I was pretty much working seven days a week for about two months and I could come in on Sundays when the library was closed and all of the stuff because what we would do is when we unboxed after the renovation we put stuff in rough order so it was total chaos and we just knew that this was the science section well when we had time we would pull a cart we would relabel it we would change the catalog stuff and then we would put it back on the shelves and then after that entire section was done then we reorganized so there was chaos and it was I mean it was pandemonium for about eight weeks and it worked for us you know because we still have kind of a rough idea but we would have to go fishing in the collection on the I think we had like three or four questions during that time and most of the users were really patient they're like you know I'm this is awesome we tried to pick a time of the year when academically it was not such a big deal so we did this change between Thanksgiving and January so you know there's not a ton of stuff going on around that time so you know most people are really prepared for the holidays we didn't do the we did the junior stuff last so that if there was kids that needed stuff for projects and of course we also have two other libraries in the area so we can also say well I can't find that because we're in chaos right now but you know what Marshall's got a copy let me get it let me send you over to Marshall you got back up yeah so you said it's been about a year and a half and someone wanted to know the 250% increase in circulation that's from and how long a time from when that was a year that was after the first year so when I first did this presentation for ILA it was about 11 10 11 months after we had done this we have since then lost all of our statistics because we did a migration and we lost all of our use so when we migrated to Polaris which was right before this and so the numbers we were not able to compare so at this point in time we can say that first year was 250% because we tracked it but beyond that I can just simply tell you the overall percentage of circulation increase but it definitely made a difference yeah that's oh my gosh it's tremendous it's really tremendous and I love it because I'm not a fiction reader I'm a non-fiction reader and I just love to see all of these beautiful little bookies that are non-fiction that are going and being read and loved and that makes me very happy yeah so another question if you have corresponding media like dvds or audiobooks do you shelve them separately or near the appropriate non-fiction section so format wise separately okay we shelve them separately by format anything does have everything together so if they have a baseball dvd and a baseball magazine and a baseball audiobook and a baseball book they're all in baseball so somebody wants baseball anything they just go to the baseball shelf and it's all there they go to the fat yeah we did not do that because we have groups of users that come in specifically for large prints specifically for audiobooks specifically for movies and we did not feel that it was going to be in our users' best interest to mix media so we still have discrete locations for those items because we have large amounts of groups that only come in just for those items right now for the dvds I'm actually asked questions since you're talking about that now sort of how would it work for them it seems like she says it seems like a big label for a small package you know to put that label on it yeah and our dvds are different our dvds are not genre at all because our dvds are very high turn as soon as the dvds doesn't check out for a year it's gone so we we're very aggressive with buying the new stuff and as a matter of fact last month josh reported to me that 50% of our adult circulation was movies wow so you know we're all laughing that we've become blockbusters since blockbusters gone and hey that's fine you know what I would rather my users use that than pay for red box because that's just a waste of money when we've got all the hottest stuff so you know we did not genreize the nonfiction in our cds and cds and movies those are still they're broken out by nonfiction fiction and children's and they're in dvd binders and you shot through the binders and you pull the sheet out for the corresponding movie take it to the service desk and they pull that item from behind the counter so but we did not even try now we can do keyword searches in Polaris so if somebody says I want a documentary on Egypt then we can go ahead and we can see if we've got one and then we can tell them exactly and work out something that way but most of our people are again our browsers they prefer to browse we have a whole little area with tables and chairs and and seating and benches for people to shot through the movies and the cds yeah I like that part I remember that was one of my favorite parts of going to my public library was just going and browsing the shelves and not even going to the either the card catalog when yes I used when I was younger and or the online kind of oh I have a specific thing I'm looking for yes if I need I need a book on blah or I need this specific title yeah of course you look in the catalog and say do we have do you have that but if I'm just I'm just wondering about the you know Irish folklore and where's that shelf and let me go look and browse that was yeah exactly and that I'm talking about in college yeah okay so here's one one of our directors here in Nebraska she's been jumping in and out of the show during the time so you I know you've mentioned this so I just want you to briefly for him say is there a generic listing of categories that you break down into and this is the the bisect that you guys based it on correct yeah if you want the full bisect anything has on their website the listing of the bisect categories if you want a copy of our version you can email me I will create you a copy share it with you on google box and then it's yours to do with as you see fit you can download it into excel you can do whatever you want with it because we did have someone else who said they wanted a copy of the documents emailed to them but do you have a slide here that had your email address on that you can put up let me advance because we're there you go there you go yeah so if you want to by all means yeah email me I will share that with you it is a google doc I will create you your very own copy and then you can edit it you can do whatever you want to it you can make it yours I think that especially for the smaller libraries think really hard about these bisect classifications because some of them just aren't going to fit for your community yeah you gotta you gotta customize it yeah absolutely and so we really actually we had a lot of fun figuring out what was going to be relevant and what wasn't going to be relevant and like I said we're still learning I mean we're still making changes we just killed social sciences and broke it out into discrete areas that were more meaningful for our users because it was very obvious to us that social science as a section was not working but folklore mythology and self-help is working people understand that yeah yeah so you know be flexible and keep your eye on things and and be prepared because we are constantly changing and evolving but yeah anybody who wants a copy I will share you a copy happily cool yeah and just so people know I did include already in our delicious links that we always put in the end of the show I've got a link to your libraries page and the anything libraries page and I even did a search offer by second found the main page for that system the subject heading system for that so if you want to go directly to the original thing or what anything has or what Jesmond's using okay short easy question what is your collection budget I can't remember if you mentioned that or not I didn't our collection budget is about $60,000 a year and that's for just for physical and non-book items databases and as is in a separate line I think we have about 11,000 we spend on databases a year not very much but that's what our collections budget is and we do have it split out so that there's a certain amount for children's a certain amount for team and then a certain amount for non-book item because as I indicated earlier you know we've become the blockbuster replacement so we really need to make sure that we're staying aggressive with our non-book purchase yeah with all those things that are not that are non-books Maurice Coleman our friend here is online he said that's what pays the bills whatever they're coming in looking for absolutely exactly so and that's yeah that's what I've been telling my staff I'm like if we spend all these times dealing with these binders and these movies and the blah blah blah well you know what that's what our is valuable to our community and that's what we need to emphasize now we also do check out board games and we check out video games as well so we have a lot of non-book items yeah that's become even it's been in libraries for years and years and it's getting even more yeah now here's something I'm not sure if you know the answer to but you might because you I know you research this if you know how prevalent is this model the bookstore quote-unquote model in academic or special libraries or is it mainly just public libraries that are doing this to my heard of any academics I had not I have not but I haven't either the libraries that I've talked to have all been public you know this might be of interest to special libraries maybe perhaps a special collections or something like that but I don't historical societies or museum yeah exactly or genealogy library things like that I don't know if this would work very well for academic libraries it's a whole different vibe it's a whole different reason for using the library yeah it's yeah and think of the cultural shift you would have with that so you've got that professor who is tenured who is brilliant who is a geometrist who knows that his section is for you know is is QA 408 he knows that's where he goes for his geometry and you're gonna have such a huge cultural shift if you try and do this sorts of things now that doesn't mean you can't try and it doesn't mean that you couldn't like perhaps maybe your study guides which is a smaller collection in academic libraries you know you could do that by genre and start exploring how this may or may not work but I think that for academic libraries the cultural shift of moving away from library of congress is going to be huge right and that's different library of congress versus dewey that's a whole other issue not not to be really getting into here well and I have opinions on that because I've worked in all of them and you have an academic library for eight years and I do think that LC is a much cleaner classification system than dewey okay measure the question just curious do you consider putting the dewey numbers alongside the new topics that you're doing so it would translate to use at other libraries basically your I think what you had your charts of what your terms that you're using did you consider having that in there so that people could make the our dewey numbers is this so this is what we would use for the subject heading instead no we didn't we wanted our real estate on our labels to reflect our collections and we you know and again this is part of us deciding that we're going to do things differently we wanted to redefine how libraries are meaningful to their communities and so when we have other users come in and then go back to their home libraries you know they they are faced with that learning curve of trying to figure out where other stuff is we're happy to help explain and look up because we are a shared consortium so we share our ILS with 24 other libraries so I can look up and say that okay so this self-help book is going to be in this dewey number right this chicken construction book is going to be in this dewey number if you go and get it from Marshall or if you go to another library but and those libraries have not done what you guys have done so no they have not and there's only one other library in our consortium that's killed dewey and that's the bear lake library in montpelier and she did it you know marionette did it before us so she came back from anything and she did it right away and yeah she was she was on the ball and you know and us we we we took more time to really plan and weed and whereas marionette just was like nah and she just went in there and she conquered it and took it over and she did it right away so there's there's one other in our consortium that we have that the majority of our libraries have not cool a specific question where do you put your drama and or poetry books where did they fall in right now poetry is in literature poetry is not of significant interest to our community so we typically don't buy poetry books we have some in literature in the teen room because we do have projects that are curriculum based but for our adults we really don't get a whole lot of that stuff and at the drama stuff we we try and look again at at what other corresponding genre it might be in in order to put those things where they will get browsed people are just not looking at literature here so we're trying to figure out where it's going to be meaningful to put it in the library and then we put those things there right and our last typing question here I do have some other thinking is coming up okay someone says they wanted to put their children's section in the bisac order but they didn't think it would work for the adults which I know that's what you have done any recommendations and their specific question is any recommendations on keeping only part of the library in that order and part of it's in Dewey still sure you can do whatever is going to work best for your community I say you know we we have not yet done all of the stuff in our children's room yet because we are creating you guys are you're into you have not done your entire library this to this no this is the whole library yet right yeah we still have the children's room to do and what we're going to do is we're not going to split out fiction and nonfiction in the children's room it's going to be the princess books the curious George books the fairy books the truck books the star wars books that's the kids come in and ask for that's what they're asking for and worse you know we just can't and our children's librarian is amazing I mean I go in there and I have an OCD fall apart because I can't handle it I know there's like J E B and then there's like three shelves of them and I'm just like you know I my head explodes I can't deal with that but she knows Amanda knows where everything is and and that's her skill set that's her area but when we do get to that point we're doing it by request for the children because the little kids come in and they want fairy books and pony books and truck books and skateboard books and star wars books and curious George might as well just have them all together yeah yep okay one question I think that oh I'm sorry go ahead no let's go I think that whatever's gonna fit for your library best and if you think that your adults are not gonna adjust go ahead and try with the kids and see how it works and you know it's it will either succeed and the adults will be like oh my gosh you have to do this for our stuff too or it'll stay the same or you know I mean like I said the worst thing is gonna happen is you're gonna have to put it all back well that would really suck but it could be done yeah and Maurice Coleman says so you're using customer language to organize your children's collection that will help them discover things exactly yes their own language yeah yes we are trying very hard as a culture in this library to make it more obvious to them that this is theirs and all we do is take care of it this is not my library it's not our library it's their library and I sit here and I take care of it for my community so whatever they want that's what they get that's an awesome attitude to have of course and one other question came in how would you classify your juvenile nonfiction books if you have more than the school district books what we've done is we've done it by request so we've got all the school district books for the curriculum presidents states countries animals what have you and then we have truck books and BMX books and motorbike books and military vehicle books and that kind of stuff so then we went to um you know that like Maury said the customer language and what the kids are looking for and asking for so we broke it down that way we did not we tried to match it a little bit to the adults but we split quite a bit because we've got these overarching areas of interest where kids are coming in and they want skateboard books so just make a skateboard section and call it good yeah and one other comment he has is describing it we facilitate discovery that's a very nice freezing okay that's all for the typed in questions that we had if anyone does have anything else feel free to type them in um we do have someone from here in the library commission who wanted to be unmuted to ask you specific questions so um gonna do that um I've unmuted you guys are you there still yeah can you hear us yes I can yep okay hey jazz is Michael hi hi um so I'm I'm gonna represent the skeptics here for just a moment yeah um I love pretty much everything you've done you remodeled the library you rearranged the collection to respond to the customers you've increased your signage all of those things are wonderful and I think really did help you know improve your circulation weeding especially um but you know that final step of you replace numbers with words uh huh all of that have been done and still kept the numbers sure absolutely absolutely you can certainly do that and what we wanted to do was pull the different parts of the pieces and put them together and have greater control over where we wanted those things to be than just a classification of a dewy number so again to to get back to an example of that we wanted all the chicken books together so chicken housing chicken pens chicken feeding chicken hatching everything's in in chicken now you can do the same with Dewey you don't I mean you don't have to go to the trouble of relabeling everything you can come up with the same sort of concept with Dewey the problem that we had with Dewey is that it didn't make sense to our users it was too difficult to give people three or four different locations for the same topic that they wanted there wasn't an ability to browse because it was too nonsensical too jargony for our community of users and so we decided that for us the natural language was was a change you don't have to I mean you certainly don't have to again I think that it really comes down to what's going to work best for your strategic plan for how you want to interface with your community and most importantly what your community really wants well I I guess the the the I do see where you're coming from but the the Dewey number that comes in the book is not necessarily required for you to use you can still use Dewey numbers and put all the chicken books together you certainly can but then you need to actually have a person on your payroll who can use the Dewey schedule so in some of these libraries if you can't download the Dewey number you've got to try and figure out how to use whichever edition you've got of the Dewey schedule to classify that somewhere else and so it's it's also easier for the staff because we don't have a formal MLS trained cataloger on that fair enough that's another part of it too I mean you can you can certainly say that yes this is a construction book and it should be in the 300s but I'm gonna put it in the 600s you could certainly do that for us that would have been harder because then we would have had additional training and so on and so forth and the other big issue too is that we wanted to break up the long ranges of Dewey so we had oh to 900 and it just was this long continuous thing whereas now we have very discreet areas of sections and that's it that's science it's those shelves and that's it and this is health and it's those shelves and that's it and there's physical breaks between each of those collections and that has also really helped I think for discovery and browsing and you could do that with Dewey too absolutely sure okay well no and I mean I'm still reserving judgment on the whole thing but I think those specific points you just raised I think kind of fills in the gaps that I was missing as to why you actually did it thank you sure cool okay a couple questions did come in while you guys were chatting question about where to put a biography and I guess this would depend on what you said on your situation would it make sense to put a biography on a baseball player with the baseball books or the biography books we decided that if it is about a person it goes in biography so our biography section grew and we are just jammed right now at max capacity for biography but at the same time biographies are huge interest to our communities our people love to come in and browse the biographies and they're all biography and then they're in alpha order by the person it's about so even if it's an auto biography it's still by that person so it's not alpha by author it's alpha by person and so the people if they want a Lincoln book they need to go to the L for Lincoln as opposed to the to the author so we chose that if it was about a person then we put it there and yes this did this does mean overall that we need to take more time when we look at things and determine do I want this in biography and I have a whole subject specialist for biography my administrative assistant Susan governs those things and we'll go back and forth and we'll say you know this is about this famous Wild West woman should we put it in biography or is it about enough of Montana that it needs to be in history so we do have we do take more time and I think that this is a luxury that we have in smaller libraries or we can really pay attention to these little guys and make sure that we're putting them where we think that they would fit best for our community we have that luxury here yeah and this person's mind it wouldn't make more sense in the baseball section but also if someone did come up to you and say I want to read about a baseball player you can always search the catalog for biography baseball and figure out you know if you don't know a bunch of baseball players at the top of your head and that you happen to have a book on them that's then what the catalog can be used for yeah and most of our people who come in and this includes the kids that come in because they need to do a project to buy a biography on a person they already know that they want to do a project on Babe Ruth or Derek Jeter or what have you and so they've already got a person that they're interested in learning about okay and a final comment here I think we'll have this be the last one since we are running a lot over our time I'm glad so many people stuck around with us though someone else saying that they did this similar thing here at their library so just more like a proof of concept on the topic of adults adjusting you're talking about you know them adjusting to whatever the changes you make several years ago we separated our Christian fiction from our general fiction section and made it a section of its own the circulation for those Christian fiction has increased exponentially and our users know to just go to that section if they're only interested in Christian fiction we did the same with mysteries it has worked really well with the adults we have yet done our dewy system change but would love to do that as well so there's just a you know the adults can adjust you know similar to the kids they have to say they do the same things like you're saying I read mysteries I read westerns I read whatever where are they yeah well and the only complaint we had we had one complaint and it was from a retired librarian who had moved to the area and she was very familiar with the dewy system so she was our only complaint and I classify librarian users as staff because they have that understanding of of how libraries work and I classify their feedback differently from our users because they are different groups of people so we only did have the one complain and it was from a retired librarian and she wanted the dewy but then again she knew exactly where to go because we've been trained in this sort of classification system where our typical average user has not yeah okay doesn't look like any last minute people with any desperate questions have come in but if you do have questions there's just his email address you can definitely contact her there she'll tell you everything everyone should know about it and get you the obviously the documents that if you're looking for any of her resources so thank you so much Jesmin that was awesome oh you're very welcome thank you for having me yeah this is a great topic to have as like I said we've had some libraries here in Nebraska do it as well I know one of our libraries did a presentation at a conference a few years ago and we did have on here on the show someone talking about it as well so there's lots of information out there so thank you very much thank everyone for attending I'm going to pull back presenter control now to bring back to my screen here there we go there we go and this is one of the sessions I was talking about that we had here and encompass live on the teen section at a la vista public library they had they did it and they did involve the teens full on with doing this actually so that was really nice what they did there they were totally involved with redoing this the section the teens at this particular library and their teen advisory board are very very involved in what the library does for them so if you're interested this is on our encompass live website in our archives section of our website this is a list of all the all of our encompass live shows we've done you can see here and this is where the recording of today's show will go as well so that we're up for today's show thank you very much for attending I hope you'll join us next time where it is our monthly tech talk with Michael Sowers who was just on the line chatting with Jasmine he's our technology innovation librarian and once monthly comes on and does more techie related type show next Wednesday he has professor Liz Lawley on the show talking about the just press play program that they have done at their university where Rochester Institute of Technology there it is in New York and talking about the programming and the software they use for that they're going open source with that so you'll be able to borrow their program that they've done there using games to help with learning with the new students that are coming in so sign up for that and if you are a Facebook user and Compass Live is on Facebook so do please like us on there you'll get notices of when we have new sessions coming up when recordings are available a reminder every week join us log in right now on the fly for today's show other than that that will wrap it up for today thank you very much for attending and we will see you next time on and Compass Live bye-bye