 I want to go back to, did you start working in the gym? Is that your first? Is that how you got into the fitness industry? Where you started working in the gym? Yeah, I mean, I was an entrepreneur. Like I owned a car lot at Michigan State. That's how I put myself through school. So I was just like kind of a hustler. Somebody who was always figuring out like, oh, there's a problem to solve and I'll solve it and then make some money. I heard you talking about this under the podcast. I was so impressed. You started learning how to, I mean- Flip cars. Your business acumen is incredible. You started flipping cars in high school? Yeah. You know, once my parents said, we don't have money for you to go to college, but I'm sure you'll figure out a way. We can help you figure out a way to make money to do it. I was my dad's idea to start going to car auctions at like age 14, 15. Yeah. And so I bought my first car. It was a El Camino orange from the state of Michigan. And I took it to Earl's Shib, had it painted for 99 bucks, cleaned it, you know, all the, so it looked beautiful and then resold it and made a couple thousand dollars. And I'm like, this is a thing. And so then I started flipping cars. And you did that through the team? Through college. Yeah, through college. And I started a business at Michigan State called the All Michigan Auto Swap Meet. And that's what I did. How did you find customers? What was the progression? Yeah, what was the progression like? Did you, you started flipping one at a time and then you started doing two? Like, how did you scale it? Then I was like, you know, it was such a pain in the butt to sell a car privately. So you have to schedule an appointment for someone to come and look at it. I'm a, you know, 19 year old girl in a college town and I have grown men coming, you know, and there's a cash exchange and sometimes they wouldn't show up. And I know like other people have to be dealing with this too. So I had this idea, okay, I'm gonna rent a piece of land from the state that's gotta be cheap, just a piece of grass. And I'm gonna call one by one, every single person who's selling their car and say, hey, let's just all organize on Saturday to show up at the same place and I'll run an ad. And we'll get everyone who's looking for a used car to show up at the same place. I'll just take a tiny little cut but then you don't have to do this all the time. And I had, and then I called the Lansing State Journal and they did a story on it and it worked out well. Brilliant. Thanks. That's absolutely brilliant. Mom, dad, entrepreneurs were the country. My dad, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Wow. And so, and I know you talk a lot about having ADD and all that stuff. Did that play, was that like become a strength? Because when I also have ADD and when you read about people with ADD, we tend to be entrepreneurs. We tend to like to do sales. Was that just, was it part of your like looking back where you're like, oh, this was my superpower? For sure. Well, and also my Achilles heel, you know? My dad has extreme ADHD too. So my issue for the first, I don't know, you know, 25, 30 years of my life was every idea is a good idea. Let's do them all at once and not finish any of them all the way. So, and let's not focus on just one. Let's do all of them because one of them is gonna pop. And that's kind of how I ended up in fitness. I was, you know, doing the cars. I was working as a paralegal. I was selling e-books online. I was doing personal training. I was doing fitness. I was taking the LSAT to become like all the things. And I was listening to an interview and it was a gentleman talking about how he had been fired from his job and he took out a full page ad with all of the things that he could do. I think he was a radio host. And he took out this full page ad of like, you know, he could do sales. He could do just every piece of marketing. He could do voiceover, all these things and put his address in there and people he thought would send him invitations to apply for their jobs, whatever. And he got one letter from a person that on a blank piece of paper folded up in the middle of it was just one word and it was focus. And I thought, I know how to do, like I feel like I can do anything. Just show me how and I'll do it but I do not know how to focus. And so it was in that moment that I thought, what if I just focused on an opportunity and put all these other things away? And at the time it was fitness. And so I just decided, I'm gonna go all in like for a couple of years and just see what happens. Okay, so why did you pick fitness? Because when you look at all these other industries, I mean, it doesn't seem like an obvious money maker. Not at all, making money in fitness, I tell people this all the time, like you wanna make a lot of money, fitness is probably not the industry to get into. Why did you pick fitness over selling cars, over paralegal, over all these other industries and businesses where money would have been much easier? I saw a need. So I was teaching fitness classes for family fitness, 24 hour fitness at the time. And I was like, this is such a money making, a losing proposition. You spend hours and hours and hours creating these workouts. You're paid less than minimum wage. You've gotta come up with the music, the choreography. And I remembered that my mom taught Jazzercise in the 70s and I'm like, that model was amazing. They just shipped you the music, the choreography, everything, you just plugged in your personality. And I'm like, what if I did something like that? Like, cause I've got this kickboxing format that people are like, how are you doing this? And so it was just opportunity. It wasn't the thing I was the most passionate about. I was thinking in terms of an entrepreneurial pursuit, like there is something, there's a strong need in the market. Now people now hearing this probably don't realize that this was a big transition in the fitness space because so this was, when was this, the 80s? Late 80s, early 90s? No, this would be the 90s. 90s, early 90s. So back then, now when you go take group classes, especially in gym chains, it's a structured format. It's owned by like Les Mills owns classes. They give you the music, the format. You just show up, you're certified and you teach it. But back then, you as the instructor, how did you all that? Everything. And so you looked at it and you said, what if I designed, so let me get this right. You said, what if I designed or create something that then people can franchise or purchase and just plug in. Yes, paint by numbers. Okay. And what was it that you created? It was called Turbo Kick. And I was in all 624 fitness clubs like that because great timing. It was when Taibo was the hot influence. I remember that. So I really kind of capitalized on it. And in fact, I called it Taibox at first and I got a cease and desist. Oh, shit. So then we called it Turbo Kick, which was also a crazy story, how we came up with that name. But it was solving a need for 24-hour fitness because people were coming into the gyms and droves and saying, do you have this Taibo? And we wanted to do Taibo. And Billy hadn't licensed something at that point. So it was just really easy for me to solve that problem for 24-hour fitness. And then we had tens of thousands of customers who were our instructors and they were on a monthly continuity. Wow. Take me through that pitch. So you come up with the idea and now you're trying to bring it into a corporation like 24-hour fitness. Who are you talking to and what is that? Did you talk to Mark Mastro directly or was it? Yes, sure it did. At the time it was Donna Myers and Mark Mastro. And it was just really, there was nothing available. And every single general manager was like, we need Taibo in these gyms. And so I have a group data gratitude to Billy because even though the programs are different, it was kickboxing. And because I had a lot of experience in Group X, I could create a format that had the proper warm-up, the proper cool down, the right beats per minute, all the things that instructors needed so all they had to do was plug in there and it was free to the clubs. So I did not license it to 24-hour fitness. How did you get paid? By the instructors. So the instructors were on a continuity program. So they'd get certified and then in order to maintain their certification, they would pay you. And if they wanted to teach these highly popular classes, they had to continue to pay you. Yes, they got on a monthly program. So every month, they would get a new set of workouts. So it was $50 and we would just... You get 50 bucks a month for each of these applications. Yes, yeah. Holy cow. So let me, okay. So let's go back for a second because... So the clubs loved us. We didn't cost them anything. And then Les Mills was licensing at the time. He used to have that. And I mean, it was like David and Goliath, it was so hard to compete with them because they had like all the money behind their marketing. Did you realize how brilliant this was when you did it? Or were you like, this sounds like a good idea now looking back. Cause you're right, the gyms paid nothing. So if I'm master off and I have Les Mills where I'm going to pay them thousands of dollars and then I got you and you're like, you don't have to pay me nothing but your instructors want this, they'll pay me. I mean, did you realize like how... I don't know, back and forth I used to think like, God, I'm so dumb that we didn't license it to them because I knew what Les Mills was making, you know? But also it really endeared me to the culture of fitness instructors. I was one of them. I understood and I really worked closely with them. And you know, in the long run, you can't have any regrets. So I started at 24 Hour Fitness in 1997. This was right after they merged with, they were Nautilus and they merged with Ray Wilson's Family Fitness to become 24 Hour Fitness. You started with Ray Wilson's Family Fitness. Okay, a lot of people don't know this but Ray Wilson, they were kind of the first, some of the first people to introduce paying through EFT. I know Mark Mastroff really implemented that. They were the first ones to really create like the business, the gym business. Whereas before that, it was like meatheads that own gyms. They didn't want to make a lot of money. What was the environment like in those, because it must have been so, I hear stories, you know? And I'm such a student of the gym industry. I hear stories about it. It must have been an amazing time. Well, I was kind of in that transition. So it was only Family Fitness for a very few years and then it was right. Still though, because even the early 24 was crazy. It was crazy. It was amazing. Yeah, it was crazy. I mean, the amount of hours I remember putting in and just, you just did it because you loved it, you know? And for me, then I was also building this business at the same time and teaching these fitness classes. And it was just a wild time. Like Group X was the hub of the gym then. Yes, it was. And now we're seeing people like move into the weight room and we're seeing Group X's dwindling. I mean, frankly it is. And there's, I think there's more knowledge now about the tons and tons and tons of cardio. And it's just, it's a little less popular. So I have a speculation on that. I'd love your opinion on the reason why I think Group X was the hub at the time was because it was the way, if you look at consumer bases, women are a much larger consumer base than men. And Jim's had to figure out, how can we tap into this incredible consumer base because if we continue to just appeal to men, we're never gonna grow as a business. And Group X is what did it. Now women understand the benefits of strength training. So now that's why it's shifting. But I think that's why Group X was such a powerful draw in those days because it attracted this consumer base that would make you a successful business. Am I on point? I think so. And also I think the music and the community. So, I think guys tend to go to the gym by themselves and it's just kind of a solo pursuit and women want community. They want to have fun. They wanna talk before, they wanna talk after, they want to, and I'm over generalizing, but like, and it's the music. And for me, when I created my program, I didn't, my degree is justice, morality and constitutional democracy. I know nothing about fitness. So I ended up there because it was an opportunity. And I created this workout based on watching cheer competitions on ESPN. And like when they would do like air jacks and everybody like, and I was like, oh God, that would just, what if you just walked around and every time you punched, there was a sound effect. So I learned to master the music and edit all the music myself and I would put in sound effects where you did certain movements and it just did something to people on an emotional level. It was such a trip. Was anybody else doing this at the time? Cheer competitions, no, just that, just, just half time, yeah. Today's giveaway is MAPS RGB bundle. This is the MAPS anabolic mass performance MAPS aesthetic bundle. It's a huge bundle, one of our more popular ones. And if you wanna win it, this is what you gotta do. Leave a comment below this video in the first 24 hours that we drop it, subscribe to this channel and turn on notifications. If you win, we'll let you know in the comment section that you won. We're also running a sale this month on two very popular programs. MAPS anabolic and MAPS split both 50% off. If you're interested, just click on the link at the top of the description below. All right, here comes the show. What was the peak of Turbo Kick financially? What did it reach and how long did it take you to get there? I, let's see, we sold I think in 2010 to Beachbody because we were kind of competing against each other. Turbo. Is that how you got into Beachbody? Yes. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, so with, so I think my husband would have to quote me on numbers, I'm so bad at remembering them, but I would think we had like 60,000 instructors on a continuity program or we had certified all, I don't know, every state in the United States, probably 50 different countries. We had people who were teaching the format to instructors all over the country. So it would, and I had a clothing company that went along with it. It was big and I was running that and all of these instructors didn't know who I was really. You know what I mean? Like their students didn't know who I was, but they would help their students to lose massive amounts of weight and they would send me their stories and their before and after photos. And to be inspired, I would keep all of those. And I kept them in this big, giant notebook all their before and after photos and their stories. The interesting piece though is that we really, I had no idea how much we were making because at the time my husband, who's now completely recovered, had a gambling addiction. Oh, sports gambling? Yeah, yeah. I'll kill you. Which works perfectly if you're married to somebody who has a work addiction, you know? So we both had our addictions. But anyways, I had this book and when Tai Bo had run its course, all the informers started looking for the next fitness thing. So they started reaching out to me and I would show up with this book and they'd be like, they couldn't believe it. I didn't realize that it was like liquid gold. That's what most infomercial companies, people don't know this, but they'd create a program and then they spent about nine months getting, or six months at least, getting incredible before and after stories. Well, so I had this book that would save them a year of production and put it in my book. And yet I didn't know any of these people. I didn't help them lose the weight, but my program's had. And so that's how I got introduced to all the big infomercial companies at the time. So then I started doing infomercials at the same time as running our businesses and about killed myself. Did you? Well, okay, let's go there. What do you mean? It was just, I think now obviously looking back in hindsight, you feel like you're better take it, you better cook while the pan's hot. And we took every single opportunity without saying, okay, this is a better one, let's put this aside. And I didn't know how long the infomercial stuff was gonna run. So I didn't wanna do anything with our company and I had built this thing from the ground up and it just meant so much to us to take care of these instructors. So I had Turbo Jam, which was my infomercial. And then I had Turbo Jam, which was my infomercial. And then I had Turbo Kick, which was our program. And then we were all bidding on my name and those terms for SEO. So we're constantly fighting against each other in these businesses that related, but also didn't. Do you know what I mean? I mean, they were very related, but it was a lot of, I never slept. I only worked out and consumer fitness then really took a toll on my mental health for me. Is this bad taste in your mouth with the space? Yeah, for sure. Did you consider leaving it? Oh, I did. Yeah, I absolutely did, yeah. Okay, what did you do then? What was the trend? You know, it was, there was a moment when I was on camera and there was a lot leading up to this. It's just, and this is just the industry. And I was in the industry too, right? So we were making fitness videos too. And so I'm not faulting any one company or, but it was the industry at the time. It was the leaner and smaller you were, the more marketable you were. Like I remember my first, first time I showed up for or was preparing to do my very first consumer photo, what do you call it? Photo shoot. And they, the producer had emailed me instructions on how to cut weight and cut water before the shoot. And I was like, I never, I taught fitness classes but I was never in like the competition world. I didn't know anything about this. So I'm like, cut weight and cut water. You know, so it's giving you this message like you need to do something, you know? And that was kind of a trip. And then I just remember showing up to the, to review the photos. I just remember this like last night to review the photos and there were two sets. And in one of them, I looked really good. And in the other one, I was like, and I'm like, what are these? The ones where I looked heavier, more like myself. And they're like, oh, we just, don't worry about that. We just thought that would be funny to show you those. And I was like, funny, funny. And I literally didn't put it together until last night that that was probably, I was looking at the Photoshop and the unphotoshopped, you know? Cause then later I had a lot of experiences where I'd be like, this is so photoshopped. This does not look like me, you know? And just comments, feedback, it was rough. This is the challenge. I tell people who enter into the space who use their bodies or their appearance to sell products, you eventually run into this challenge. And most of us enter into the fitness space because we have some kind of struggles with body image anyway. I was like this, we started this, I was much older, felt like I had processed all my stuff. I remember we put up a video and there was some comments like this guy doesn't even look like he works out. And I remember being like, oh, it's surfacing again. So it could be a really tough space from that standpoint. It absolutely is. And that was the messaging. There was a time when, I mean, God, there's so many things I could tell you. So many things that were just incredibly unhealthy. And I had never dieted and I'd never had body images because my mom doesn't have any body images. I swear, I never heard her talk about her weight, anything until I started getting into consumer workouts. And then everything, like it would be, even if it was a compliment, they would say, a cameraman would say, you know, I like working with you because you look normal, you know? I love that you don't look like a fitness person. It's so cool. And you're like, how do I process this? Or, you know, the person who was like, so on camera, we're seeing something. So we're gonna have you a little bit more covered up. And you're like, what are you seeing? Like, I'm a human. Like what? It was just, you know, all the time, every single shoot, every single photo shoot. And the messaging was always, you know, if you can get leaner and tighter things, this program, one time, one time I sent in my recordings, these are the videos we're gonna film next week. So I sent them the rough versions of me filming them in my home gym. So I could see the routines. And they come back and I get a message and they said, we've got a great idea. We could use this footage as your before footage. And we can delay the shoot and then come back and you could be like the after story. I'm like, no. But, you know, it just one thing after another. And then there was a time where my husband actually got a phone call. And they said, you know, we don't really, we don't wanna hurt Shalene's feelings, but we really, for this next series, we need her to get leaner and smaller for this next series. And we just don't know if there's a future, really, if that's not gonna happen. So what's really crazy about your story is that we talk on the show a lot about our insecurities and what led us to fitness. So that's actually what drove me to the gym. So you're kind of like the reverse of this. It's kind of crazy to hear. Most people I feel like- You started getting like some of this after you got- Right, most people- Absolutely. Hate their body, don't like the way they look. They go to the gym in pursuit to change something about themselves. Driven by an insecurity, which we talk about all the time. But you're probably the first story that I've actually heard somebody who was in the industry for quite some time. And then it seemed like it reared its head on you and probably created insecurities. Insecurities and orthorexia and just feeling super duper inauthentic. So when my husband got that call that I needed to get smaller, lose weight, get leaner, get tighter for this next series or there wasn't gonna be another series. I was really embarrassed because I never felt like I belonged in the fitness industry anyways. We talk about imposter syndrome. But I always felt like someone's gonna say like, oh, you guys, we just found out. She doesn't know anything about fitness. She's a car salesman, you know what I mean? So when I, in the back of my head, that message would be like, see they know you don't belong here. But so when he got that message, I was like, you know, there's so much riding on this. I have to do this. So I'm going to have to go harder. I'm just gonna have to exercise harder. So because we were running the business and doing these consumer workouts at the time, I probably spent five or six years, maybe more, getting less than four hours of sleep a night and exercising, you know, three hours a day easily. Oh my gosh. Yeah, easily three hours a day. If not more. And then when I got the message that you needed to, you need to get smaller. This is before. Oh my gosh. By the way, when they wanted me to be, they suggest I'd be a before image. I was about 17% body fat and, you know, under 115 pounds. Do you think that, well, I mean, I think I know the answer to this, but do you think that the fitness industry has done as much harm as it's done good with people because of how we portray health and how we tend to sell it, you know, to people watching? It's the marketing of it. And I think social media has made it a hundred times worse, you know, and the photo shopping and, you know, I think what we say is health is a look. It's an image. So when I lost all the weight, I lost another probably like five or six pounds, which when you're five, two is a lot. You know, when I was already very small. So I show up on the set, I'm 11% body fat. I'm, I don't like to save my weight because I think that can trigger people, but I was really low and I had been sustaining on nothing like chemicals, basically, you know, protein chemicals and no real food exercising for at least four hours a day at least and not drinking water. I'm just all the things to just get as small as possible. And I feel like I'm gonna faint and I feel, I know I can't sustain this. I know I'm killing myself. I know that I'm constantly getting injured. Everything hurts. I can't think straight. I'm irritable. I don't have the same personality. I feel like I'm my heaviest, which is so weird. And I walk in on set and everyone's like, girl, you have never looked better. You and all the social media, everything was like hashtag body goals. What are you doing? Is it this workout? You know, everyone wants to know, what is the thing? The thing is I'm starving myself and exercising for hours and hours and hours. And now I'm on camera and I'm looking into a lens and I know who I'm talking to. Like I always think about the person I'm talking to at home, I'm gonna get upset. And I'm saying, you can get these results in 30 minutes a day and eat delicious food. And I'm like, I can't. Maybe someone else can. How did I get here? How did I get here? This is a lie. What I'm saying is a lie. And I didn't formally leave, but when I literally, those are the words that came out of my mouth when I said, I have to turn this all around. I have to leave. Was there a moment? Was that the moment? Yeah. That was the moment. Of course I didn't formally leave, but mentally I was done. That was it. And I later did some infomercials where it was just me and I filmed the whole thing on my iPhone on the wrong setting, not even 1040. And for my PIO infomercial, and that did really well, but I was completely in control. There was no one telling me what to do. No one telling me what to weigh. No cameraman there, no hair and makeup. No one putting clothes on me and telling me that I look heavy in them. Just just me, I'll do it if it's just me. And I get to just talk to her. You know? But it was, I have a lot of guilt about it. Because I felt like I led a lot of people and I had a responsibility to wake up sooner. Yeah, I think you should, I think you should definitely forgive yourself. Look, we were trainers for decades. Probably the first 10 years I trained people, that was terrible. Like terrible. I mean, I trained people wrong, too much intensity. I treated people like robots. Like they were all fitness fanatics. Just do what I tell you. If you don't, you're lazy. I remember, I tell this one story. And I say it so often, partially because it's a good story. I think it conveys what I'm talking about. But also because I hope and pray she listens to this because I really feel bad. This woman, I had this, like what I called this, come to Jesus talk with her. And I basically called her out for lying on her food tracking. And she's not telling, and she left crying. And I felt so accomplished. Like, yeah, I told her and she never came back. And she probably never tried again. And that was all my fault. So I think a lot of us who've been doing this for a long time go through that. Cause you do this the wrong way. And then eventually come out the other end and go, hold on a second, there's a different way to do this. I do think that that extreme has caused an opposite and extreme reaction, which now is this distorted body positivity movement. That's become so distorted where it's like trying to lose weight is fat shaming. And it's, you know, health at any size type of deal. And I understand where it came from, but I feel like that's like the, it's also extreme and wrong. It's just on the other end. And it's a reaction to, you know, kind of how the fitness space has been for so long. And everything extreme is so polarizing, whether it's politics or fitness or nutrition. Like, and I just, I want no part of anything that's that extreme in any of those realms, you know? Like it just, I've learned that the industry, health and fitness has really conditioned people to believe you won't get it right. You need someone else to tell you, I don't care if you're a neuroscientist, you don't know how to eat or work out. You need someone who's going to put a program together for you. And if you're not following someone else's program, you've fallen off the wagon and you don't know what you're doing. So at what point did you, I remember when I figured this out, I remember, I think I heard this and then it clicked. And then this is when things sort of changed for me as a trainer. I used to think you had to, you know, lose weight to get happy. And then I realized you get happy and then you lose weight. When did that happen for you? Yeah, yeah. Oh my God. So I don't ever since that happened, I don't weigh myself, I have no idea. And I got weighed this week because I had to go to the doctor and I was like, I'm two pounds heavier than I was. I've got so much more muscle. I like, I like my body now. I cannot believe the amount of time I wasted, the amount of joy, pure joy from food and friends. And just the amount of time I wasted, sorry, no offense, meal prepping and so worried about skipping my third workout for the day. And it's just crazy how much life I missed out on because I was so consumed by, I can't miss it. I've got to do more work. I got to do more cardio, got to do another workout and I can't eat that. And it's just so much joy and my body composition, everything is better now because I don't worry about it. It's funny too because the people that get all the attention, especially with social media now, that get the attention, they're the ones that, of course, their messages are what go viral and they're communicating this message of like beast mode, never miss a day, food is just fuel, basically fanatics and unhealthy in that sense because they look a particular way. They're the ones that are getting the message out and it's really hard to counter that. It's like, it's hard to beat that message with, it's like, oh, you lose 30 pounds in 30 days, but when we're like, no, it's gonna take you like two years and you got to change your relationship with food and you got to like yourself more. It's hard to beat that. How do we market the right way? How do we make it sexy? This is a conundrum. I don't have that answer, I really don't. I don't purposely look at any of that stuff. It's still triggering for me online and I can see. I know when that fitness person is in it, they're in orthorexia, they're in a state, they, and I can just see it and I feel sorry for them. I want to reach out to them. I want to let them know like, man, it's a scary place to be in where you are marketing your body. I mean, I shouldn't say that. Where what you're marketing is dependent upon your physique. You know, that's a pretty scary place to be. It's a very scary, it's an inevitable trap. Like you're going to crash at one point. I mean, I remember when we started this, that was one of the things that obviously if you go and look on our mind pump media, all of our social media, you don't see that of any of us. None of us use our bodies because none of us, we all knew that at one point we're all going to be 45, 50 kids, other things are going to be more important. I'm not going to want to have to walk around with 5% body fat just to sell programs or have a business. And so we, I think we knew that going in. And so when I see this, I see people that have built their brand around themself and their body like that, I go like, man, even if you're doing well right now, it's inevitable that life happens. Life happens. And life should happen and life is good. And, you know, the message, like even I think about the impact I had on my kids, right? Like, so my daughter's 23 now. And she's suffered from an eating disorder in high school. Why wouldn't she? Here's her mom who gets super excited anytime she finds someone who's lost a lot of weight. So I'm always celebrating. Like, oh, look at this person, their transformation. You get all a mom's attention. You know, I mean, that was a subliminal message. And you can't, no matter how much you try to hide it from your kids, I didn't want either of my kids to know how much I was exercising, how little I was eating, but they see it. Sure. You can't hide that. No, you can't hide that. And, you know, the whole conversation about the almond mom. No. Oh, it's just, it's this trend that started from one of the Hadid, you know, the two Hadid models, the girls. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, their mom was on a reality TV show Housewives of Beverly Hills. And there's a moment where one of the models is calling in and she's like on a shoot and she's like, mom, I feel so weak, I'm gonna faint, I haven't eaten anything. And her mother says, honey, have a couple of almonds. Chew them really well, you'll be fine. And so now that's kind of the joke is the almond mom. But, you know, a lot of us in the 2000s, parents and moms, you know, we were almond moms. So it's like, well, just got a handful of almonds. You know, you don't really need that. Like we kind of would try, you try to hide it with, well, that's gonna make you feel sluggish and slow, but your kids realize what you're, it's just so much emphasis on good and bad food. And more so, it's what they observe, how you talk about yourself. Yeah. You know, and how you are with yourself. I think it has even a much larger impact because it's, you don't realize it. And you're talking about yourself and oh my God, I can't wear this and I don't look good. And, you know, your kids hear that and that can make it really hard for them because they start to internalize it. How old were they when you were going through that? Their entire childhood, you know, really. It's interesting because we celebrate fitness for the side effects that it produces. The side effects are how you look. The real effects are how you feel. Right. So, and you know, because we sell it through the side effects, that's what everybody thinks is the main effect. And the truth is, if you think that's the main effect, if you confuse that as the main effect, you will eventually lose all of them. Yeah. Because your health declines, you feel crappy, you don't look good. Yeah, yeah. You know what the irony of this is, and I'm sure you've experienced this as well, people can look a particular way in a picture, but when you meet them in person, I've been to enough fitness competitions and figure shows and whatever. You meet someone in person, they don't look healthy. No, that's right. They don't even look good. That's absolutely right. The bags under the eyes, the super hollowing of the face. Bad skin. Oh, yeah, hair, all those things and eyes. It is, it's sad to me that we take things to such extremes and again, like people constantly asking for six pack abs. It's like, but do you actually know what's involved for a woman specifically? No one cares or asks, what is that gonna do to my hormones? What if I stop getting my period? What is that gonna do to my bone density? We just have a look and we want that. And I think social media obviously makes that much worse. But I also do think we're, I'm kind of a little concerned about this hyper fixation on all these extreme little dials you have to turn for health. Like you have to drink water exactly 30 minutes before this. And then if you, it's sleep, if you just everything that's so particular that you can become consumed by that too. You know why this is. We just had this conversation with a friend of ours, Kelly Starrett, was here, him and his wife. And we were talking about this exact subject. And I think a lot of that is because most of us in this space are speaking to our peers, not even the majority. We're all concerned about what everybody else thinks about us. And we wanted to outsmart the other trainer and tout some new study that came out or break down some new formula that gets the max results. Well, if you do cardio at first thing in the morning, there's a 5% increase in fat oxygen, you know? And people are like, I don't want to do cardio first. Meanwhile, we're missing 90% of the population that gives two shits about it. Yeah, or more. Yeah, so I really think, I think it's a lot of us caught up in our own shit. Our own insecurities. And people are so focused on rules. They wanna know the rules. Like what are the rules? What am I supposed to eat? When am I supposed to have coffee? What is adenosine triphosphate? Like all of these things, like they want to know what is the exercise? What is the workout? What is the, and it's like, well, it's just, we want it to be simple and it's not. No, it's not simple, but it becomes automatic if you do it right and it takes practice and it becomes, it's like any skill you have to develop. Like, when you first learn how to walk, you really have to think about every step you take and you're gonna fall and you gotta pay attention, you can't do anything else, but eventually you just walk. I can walk and talk on the phone, I can eat, I can, I don't even think about that I'm taking steps. I don't think about breathing, right? It's all very automatic. If you do this the right way, then it, and you develop the skill, then you have a good relationship with exercise and nutrition, then health is automatic because it's not healthy to have to constantly think about it. That's not healthy. I get that that's a step. Yeah, first you may have to pay attention to learn things, but could you possibly, who could live that way? Accounting every macro, every calorie, tracking everything. Well, people, yeah, fitness fanatics, but you try conveying that to the average person, they try it like, I don't wanna do this, well, of course you don't wanna do this. It's immediate deterrent. You're a normal person, nobody wants to do this. I actually heard you say something on an interview that I thought was really cool. Something that we talk about when we get somebody who wants to lose weight, we actually don't diet them or restrict them of anything. We actually add to their diet and it always blows people's minds. Like wait a second, this person wants to lose 50 pounds and you guys add to the diet? I said, yeah. Instead of focusing on what they can't have, we try and add things to their diet. I heard you say something that I thought was really interesting and I'd like to know where that came from. And that was, you don't even want somebody on a diet until they've like decluttered their life or fixed other shit that's going on in their life. And I totally agree with that because most people use food as a drug and they're medicating because there's something else that's going on and they haven't, and until you solve that, you'll never fix any of your problem. And not just regarding diet, it's just anything. Like you really can't fix the things that are bothering you the most until you figure out like, what are all of these things that are distracting me? You know, even someone's home, I always say like, if your home is really, really cluttered, it hurts your brain. Your brain literally has, every time it sees something, it has to make a decision. Is that supposed to be there? Do I pick it up or do I leave it there? You know, every single article, that's not where it's supposed to be. When you see it, your brain has to make a decision and that's exhausting. And so when you're this very exhausted state, it's impossible to make good sound decisions. Your cortisol goes up, you, then you start focusing on things that don't matter, you know, as much. So a lot of times I will just tell people, just start by decluttering your house and a lot of things will fall into place. Like your relationship will get better. Not like it's a miracle step, but it does make a really big difference because it helps you figure out like, what's really important to me? Yeah, a lot of unhealthy behaviors are reactionary impulse and impulse based. So when you can change your environment, the reactions and the impulses also change, right? So if you're stressed, if you're anxious, if things are disorganized, your impulses are gonna be different than if things feel better, feel good about yourself, more relaxed. I think everybody can understand that, right? I think all of us know what that kind of feels like. So when Adam told me about that, that he saw you talk about that, like, oh yeah, that makes, spoken like somebody who's been doing this a long time and really understands, you know, how this really works. And I also feel a sense of responsibility again to those, you know, whatever you wanna call it, people who trusted me, right? And they saw me as their leader, I guess you would say, in terms of health and fitness. People who did my workouts for 20 years and now they're like, wait, so are all those workouts bad? I'm like, no, no, the workouts are great. They're very sound. What I was doing wasn't healthy. What I was, and what I was saying other people could do to get the, what I was doing to get my results, I wasn't telling people. And so I wanna be very honest about that. I wanna be very frank about that. I mean, I was doing HIIT training six days a week and also endurance cardio and lifting and wondering why I couldn't put on any muscle, you know? So it's, once I left the fitness industry, I really made a conscientious decision to talk about what I was doing to figure out what is health and it's mental health, it's your sexual health, it's your physical health, sure. And your weight, sure. You know, it's all of these things, it's not just what photographs well on Instagram. You know what's ironic about this too, because you're talking about what you did back then to look a particular way. The irony is, if you do it right, it's way less world better now. Yeah, thank you. You see that, no, I mean, here's why I wanna say that, because there's someone listening right now who has a bad, you know, maybe body image and all they heard was, oh, that's what she did to look that way, I can do that. But here's the truth and here comes the sales part, but this is true, this is not a lie. You can look better by doing it the right way, which is less work, healthy for your body, you'll feel amazing. So it's not like what you did was the only way to look the way you did, there's a better way to do it also, which requires less and it's better. That's interesting. You saying that right now makes me realize maybe if I had only done it for 30 minutes a day, you know what I mean? Like I wasn't following the plan because in my mind, more meant more, like more meant I would be smaller, more meant I would be leaner, tighter, you know? Well, you obviously have this thing, I mean, you're extremely resilient because I've known people to do what you did and didn't come out of it as well as you did. I mean, that will really, most people will get damage. Like sleeping four hours, five hours a night, working out that way. I mean, you do that for a few months and most people get sick. Yeah. Oh, I was a wreck. I mean, I couldn't go a month without an injury, breaking ribs or pulling hamstrings or everything, just every injury, just I was like, am I accident prone? Like why? And I just realized like you, you're absolutely malnourished, but thank you for that compliment. So 2010 was when you sold your company. Now, did you get approached or did you put it up for sale? How did that? No, we negotiated for many years with Beachbody and- Did they approach you or did you put it out there? I can't remember. Because I was, we were partners at the time for the infomercials. So I'd done three infomercials with them or maybe more at that point. And they really liked the certification model. So they wanted to turn their programs into gym certifications. And we had that certification model for fitness instructors and the continuity with the monthly program. So that looked like a good fit for them. And then we consulted for a couple of years and- Why so long? What was, I mean, what was the hangup? Was it just- Attorneys. Yeah, of course. Anybody who's dealt with that. Attorneys, yeah. So when you were going through that process, we were like, when I'm done, I'm done, I'm out. Or were you thinking I'm gonna come back and- No, I wasn't saying that. But yeah, I knew that in my head. I was just like, phew. Because I never felt like I belonged there anyways. And so I had this- You do know you do belong. Thank you. Do you know that now? I, yeah, I guess. And I don't know that I feel that in consumer fitness. I don't, like I still have some angry resentment towards the industry. Sure. That I'm like, you're not getting me again, you know? But I was, I always felt like a little resentment. I heard the story about, what's his name? Played The Fonds, Henry Winkler. I saw Henry Winkler on the news once and they asked him, how does it feel everywhere you go? People say, hey, Fonds, it's The Fonds, but you're a writer, you're a director, you're an entrepreneur, you're a Broadway actor, you've done all these things, but everyone still calls you The Fonds. And when I heard this interview, I was still in that place where I was a little resentful that people were still introducing me as a fitness, health and fitness expert. Where I'm like, I'm a business expert. This is how I did well in fitness is because I'm a business expert. And so I had this resentment until I heard him say, no, I'm never resentful because it was a way for me to be invited into people's homes. And I thought, oh God, that's such a great perspective. And so now I don't have that same resentment when someone's like, oh my God, I know you from, you know, your workouts. It's just a feeling I have towards what I have to hold myself responsible for the way I handled being in those environments. That's a great attitude about it. I actually, it's funny you brought that up because I tagged you yesterday. I was doing our day in the life and I tagged that you were coming on as a guest. I shared you. Yeah, I saw that. And I got, I got quite a few DMs from people and people were, so many very excited because people listen to you and love your stuff. And then some very confused, she's Beachbody. Why would you guys talk to her? Oh, wow. It's like, wow, you really, you identify her as Beachbody, like that is it? Like all the things that woman has accomplished and done and you just think that because she did Beachbody and you've heard us say things about Beachbody that I can't have a conversation with her. And I thought that was really fascinating how that happens. But what a great attitude to have about that because if it wasn't for that, you know, who knows where you'd be. It's the Fonzie attitude. And I did, once I made that decision to leave I didn't post any fitness to my social, none. I never talked about it. I never had fitness people on my show. I really wanted to make a clean just so that people could almost like cleanse their palate and I could really help people in business which is what I love entrepreneurship. I love helping people like, I've got this crazy idea. I love helping people who are, you know, easily distracted by everything and helping them figure like, okay, just hear the steps to start with. So I want to ask you this because do you see the parallels now? Or maybe you don't, you probably do. Do you see the parallels in fitness and just in entrepreneurship? In the sense that you're doing, you know, you're working out, oh, I'm doing this. I suck at it. I fail. I got to keep trying. I got to keep doing it. I fail. And there's growth just like entrepreneurship. I mean, to me it seems quite obvious. I had thought about that. I think that's amazing. No, I've always thought that fitness is a gateway drug because you realize, yeah, I can fail and I can learn something from someone and then I can get better. And so a lot of people go from fitness to personal development and then they start listening to podcasts and reading books and then that usually leads to like, hey, I could do something on my own. Yeah, so it's like this journey that people follow. Totally 100% because look at the commonalities, right? It's like, you eventually learn to be humble as entrepreneurship will teach you that. Oh yeah. You accept the fact that you're gonna suck a lot before you get good at anything. You start to, you develop a relationship with failing that is different than most people. Most people are afraid of failing. To be a successful entrepreneur, you just start to look at it as opportunities. Where can I go from here? What does this look like? It's empowering. You can't be successful in fitness or entrepreneurship without feeling empowered. You can't sit there and be like, oh no, it's everybody else's fault and you have to have the attitude like, well, what can I do? Let me focus on what I can do. So the commonalities in my opinion are incredible. Especially the failure piece, right? Like I mean, you can't, you will not be successful in any entrepreneurial pursuit unless you're really willing to go like, oh, I just have to keep failing and each time it gets better. Like with, you know, lifting, every time I fail, I'm gonna get a little stronger. Totally. At what point did you and your husband go into business together? Has he always been a part of it? I know you talk a little bit about him being behind the scenes and a lot of stuff. Was he that way back in Beachbody days or that happened after, oh, so even then? Yeah, yeah. So Brett has always been the, I mean, other than like the first couple of years of our marriage, but as soon as the fitness certification stuff started taking off, which was just a couple of years into our marriage, he quit his job and had never had any experience as an entrepreneur. And now he's in this very female dominant business where it's like, you know, women and all getting certified in music and he doesn't know anything about a step touch or, you know, a 32 count phrase. But he knows numbers and operations and he's laser focused. So he has the opposite brain of me. And so he always handled all of the, you know, strategies and the projections and the management and it takes, he's a quarterback. He played, he was quarterback at UCLA and at Michigan State. So he's a leader, you know? And so it took some confidence to be able to have me be the quarterback, if you will. Yeah. You know, and he be kind of the general manager. So what, okay. So my wife and I have been together for 13 years. She's been a part of four or five businesses that I built. She's always been a part of it. And she's always kind of behind the scenes. Extremely important. Wouldn't be where I'm at if it wasn't for her. Love that. What has, what have been some of the challenges of that? Especially when I hear like, he's a leader like that, which I know you're a leader too. So I'd say there's some challenges that her and I, she was, so was I. And so what are some of the challenges that you guys have had working together like that? Well, we went to therapy for it. Oh, okay. So a lot of it was just learning how to communicate to each other. I initially would sometimes just like give him things like, I don't have time to do this, you do this. But he was like, I don't know how to do this. Like you're setting me up for failure. And the language I would use, I would say like, well in my business or with my show, you know, and he would be like, it's ours. So we got some help there. And then it was just really, truly having so much respect for the fact that I can't do what he does and he can't do what I do. And really going like, that is so, it's amazing you can do that. I wish I could do that. And we both feel that way about each other's skills. And always knowing we're on the same team. We are, you know, I never wanna say anything that's disrespectful or to assume that, you know, you're not looking out for my best interest, even if you're questioning why we're doing something. It's not personal. You know, I love talking to couples that are entrepreneurs that actually built something together. Do you actually know that statistically, if you actually build a business together, you're more likely to say that's like 95% of couples that actually build companies together, actually are more successful. Really? In relationships. Which you would think would be the opposite. I know, I would have guessed the opposite. Yeah, it's actually true, it's 90 or 95% more likely to stay together if you were able to create a business. If you were able to create a business together. Right, right, there it is. If it implodes and it's not successful, the marriage probably won't be successful either. But if you have a successful business and you've built it together, you're more likely to stay there. But why I like to talk to couples like that is because most of them, in order for that to have worked or been very successful, you have put together some hacks or boundaries or rules or, there's a lot of things that Katrina and I do that keep the relationship balanced to where there's our personal. So what are some things that either you got from therapy or that you guys have implemented over your journey that has made the marriage successful? Oh, this is my favorite topic. Family first, so any opportunity we would ask ourselves, is this gonna take a toll on us emotionally or our children? And the answer then would be no, we're not doing it. So when we negotiated contracts, part of the contract was I'm not doing any appearances on the weekends, just not. There's a minimum amount that I'll work because I want to be available for my kids. I wanna be there. There's plenty of time. Our kids are gone now, we can crush it. So we both are very, very committed to have what we want our kids to see and feel. By three o'clock every day, work was done. We had a code word. So if he would start talking about work or I would call Kim Hanson, I'd say, well, that's interesting, Hanson. And he would know like, okay, we're getting too heated about work. He would call me smalls. That was like our code word for like, we're talking too much about work. And then just always prioritizing each other and living over money. Who cares? Who cares? And status, I don't play that game. I can make enough money and I'll find a way to do it that doesn't take me away from my family. For example, when I wrote my first book, Push, the publisher, it's about family and it's about like how to prioritize your life. And the publisher really wanted me to do all these appearances during the month of December, Christmas, like all of everything. And I just said, I can't. That's what the book is about. Can we do them in whatever, January, February? The irony of that, right? You wrote a book about prioritizing your family that all Christmas you'd be on tour. That'd be a terrible idea. So I didn't, I only did one appearance out of all of them and they were not happy. And they're like, you know, my PR agent was like, you're probably not gonna get another deal with them. And I didn't, but I did one appearance and it ended up being a New York Times bestseller. And because I had a strong community and I stuck to my values. And I think at the end of the day, that's what people need to do. Like we can get so caught up in like, I need to do more, more, more because I see this bro over here, he's doing this and they're doing that. We need to do that too. And it just impacts your relationship. I just want, I want peace. Now have you noticed a transformation and a shift in your kids in terms of their behavior and just them seeing that sort of change within you and like deliberately prioritizing them? Have they like communicated that to you at all? Oh God, yeah. If I have pride for one thing, it is our kids. They're so dope and they're so healthy. And they both are entrepreneurs and they just have fun, which I would have never. I would have never, when we were in the thick of it, I would have never dreamed of taking a vacation. Are you kidding? Someone else could get further ahead. Or even going to see a movie. I'm like, what, when I've got so much work, go see a movie, what? You know, so to see how much they actually live life and enjoy life and understand, you don't have to do it the hard way. You can do it a smart way. And it's not all about money. Okay, so if this is a misconception, I think a lot of people have about entrepreneurs that the reason why they do it is because they want to make a lot of money. There's this, I remember hearing this phrase once, that an entrepreneur is the only person that'll work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week. What are your, anybody who's been working for themselves for a long time told me as soon as that. Some truth there. What is it about entrepreneurship that if it's not the money, what is it about it that you love so much? What are you doing it? Don't even get twisted. I love the money. The money is awesome. I just don't want to work hard for the money. Got it. Ooh, well said. And I don't want to do things with people I don't like. I don't want to be told what to do. Autonomy. Yeah. And I want a lot of freedom. And so I just look at every opportunity and say, is this going to add peace to our life? Is this going to fulfill us in some way? And of course, make us money. And if the answer is no, then it doesn't matter what the dollar sign is. What are some of the biggest roadblocks you see because I'm sure you have a lot of young entrepreneurs follow you or ask you questions. What are some of the biggest roadblocks that you see with young entrepreneurs? Oh, easy. They don't want to delegate. So they don't realize you have to spend money to make money. You've got to hire. You've got to figure out how to get your money to make you money. So you actually have to have financial literacy. And if you don't, then you stay in this kind of scarcity mindset where like I'll figure out how to edit the music and I'll figure out how to code the website and I'll figure out how to build a Shopify and I'll figure out, meanwhile, the only person who can build the thing that it is you're trying to sell is you. Let somebody else do all those other things where they think, oh, I'm saving myself money. And I used to have that mindset too. Until you realize you just will work yourself into no life. You just nailed what I think every six figure entrepreneur gets stuck at in order to break the seven and eight figures. Is if you, I think there's entrepreneurs out there that this was me for sure through my twenties. I had figured out how to build a business. And I knew that I'd always be able to provide for my family and I can make a good income. But to reach like the millions of dollars was always like, I was hit that ceiling. And a lot of that had to do with letting go of these things that I built and created that were my baby. And I thought like, you can't trust anybody else to do this. No one will do it as well. Right. And I think that is, I think a hundred percent is the number one reason why someone cannot scale a business is they cannot let go of certain parts. I mean, we struggle with that even in here amongst the four founders is some of us are really, or have a hard time with letting go of certain parts of our business. And it's always what keeps that side of the house. And that is because if you are truly an entrepreneur, you see details, others do not. And so there are people who are great support staff that don't see those details. And that will always be true. So even today, there are things I've let go of that I still know if I took it back over, I might do it better. Sure. I wouldn't be able to do what I do. I wouldn't be able to be here. You know? Yeah, you got to do what you do best and let other people handle the rest. And you just kind of let go of it. By the way, that's a good thing. It's a new teacher. What has been your guys of all the revenue streams, which by the way, I listened a long time ago. I listened to an episode that you guys did, you both did, I believe, or you broke down like everything. Yeah, yeah. And one of the things I appreciate, I really appreciate entrepreneurs that are willing to share openly, all that stuff. What has been like your favorite revenue stream that you guys have created and built and why? Probably podcasting, because I love podcasting so much, even though initially we were like, this isn't gonna make us any money, this is just Shalene talking, you know? But I just, I love it. It fills me. It gives me so much joy to connect with other people and to be real and to make money doing that is insane. So that's probably one of my favorites. And then of course, our investment portfolio, because I'm to do shit. Yeah. Yeah. That's, and that's, so with social media, because obviously you started as an entrepreneur before it existed, social media now all of a sudden exists, and now it's like all these different opportunities and ways to make money. Yeah. Something that I see is that people somehow think that the old rules no longer apply. In other words, you know, they'll have a thousand followers on a social media platform like, oh, I only have a thousand followers. It's like, if I owned a brick and mortar business and I had a thousand people walk through my business, that was a huge opportunity. Or they'll say, oh, I've been doing this for six months. You know, it's not working. It's like, man, you got to do this for a long time. Yeah. Like do you see challenges like that with people who they, now with social media, they think it's somehow it's different, like it's supposed to happen faster and easier? Yes. And I also think that it's kind of like, you know, diet and fitness where it's like, well, someone has to tell me exactly what to do. And I'm going to make this stupid reel where I'm lip thinking. I hate that. And pointing. But first of all, it's someone else's voice. So I don't even connect with you on that level. And it just, it just, there's no way to connect. And anyone who wants to make money on social media, that's about, if you want to monetize, we're talking about sales. And sales happen when we know, like, and trust someone. I know nothing about you. Well said. When you're lip syncing and pointing. I know nothing about you. If you're dancing, I know, like I really, the best place to monetize is in your stories. It's where you are the realist. And the people who are really doing that authentically are winning. And that's why all these major corporations now, they don't want to work with big influencers. Cause they know it's a, you know, people aren't, aren't falling for it anymore. Hey guys, I just wanted to pop on here real quick. Cause a lot of you've been asking about, no one's asking. Oh my God. That's like, that's like so weird videos. Product. Yeah. Why it looks so radiant today. That's so funny. When we first started Mind Pump, we were trying to find ways to grow the business and we weren't super versed in social media. So what do you mean super? We, none of us even had it. None of us even had it. I'm being nice. Nobody had Facebook. Nobody had Instagram. No had YouTube. I used Adam's body to get us where we are. Did you lose yours? Yes. He was gone for almost, what, almost a year? Yeah. Eight months or so. Yeah, I got kicked off there. Didn't hurt the business at all. Yeah. Our business is not centered around that. But anyway, we found somebody on social media. He was too real. Who had a large following. It was this girl that had large following. And we thought, oh, she's gonna post about Mind Pump. We're gonna get all these listeners. It did nothing for us because people were only there to look at her half naked photos. And she provided zero value. And then there was this other young lady that, she had lots of followers. She came out with a T-shirt. I think she sold 20. Yep. She had like millions of followers. Oh yeah. So I think there's a lot of confusion as to whether or not people follow you because they're like looking at you or whether or not they find value in what you have to say and wanna buy what you have to offer. Also because of what I do, I know, I can look at the account. I know that you've bought your followers and I can see that you're buying your likes and I can tell that you're in an engagement. By the engagement. Yeah. And I can, all of it. And so it's so funny to me when I have these kinds of folks on my show or they're connecting with me. Like, oh, we can do this for them. Like, you don't understand, like it is so glaringly obvious and it hurts your brand. Like, how can I trust you? If you're buying your likes and you're buying an engagement and you bought your followers, what's real? Yeah. All right, so can I ask you something selfish? Please. Because I really respect your opinion. So obviously you're coming on our show. You listened to our show a little bit? Yes, yes, a lot. So I'm sure you went through our stuff, our social media. No. You didn't, okay. No, I looked at just stories. Cause I like, I just look at stories, but I will, I promise I will for you. I was gonna ask you what you thought because obviously you came on the show so you must have thought, okay, there. I just love you guys cause you're so real. And I don't do interviews. Yeah, why is that, by the way? Cause you've done them in the past. I can find videos for four or five years. Not many, yeah. Yeah, why don't you do any? And by the way, thank you for coming on here. Absolutely. I mean, we're in Florida and they're like, do you want to fly to San Francisco? We're on here to do that. I'm like, absolutely because I love you guys because you're real. Honestly, the reason why I don't do most is because a lot of people it's just like, I don't know, it doesn't feel real. It doesn't feel, and it's like, what is it gonna do for me? I hate to say it, but I want to just... Waste of time. I want to have my day free. I hate having an appointment, you know what I mean? So it's just laziness, that's all. No, I don't think it's laziness. I think you're just smart with your time. There we go. No, and it's authentic. I think, I mean, you obviously like us have been doing this for a long time. I remember when we started to experience this when we first started, almost every time we meet somebody who we would get all excited to meet it was always a let down, man. Because they have built up this facade of who they are online. And when they get there, it's like, either one, they're that character and they stay in character. Oh, I know who you're talking about. And you can't get them out of that. We interviewed someone, I don't wanna say who they were. But we were all excited about interviewing them because they were big on social media. This is back when we first started. We did the recording, they're in their character, turn off the mics, still. Same cadence, same delivery. And I'm like, you can turn it off, bro. You wonder if they ever do. If they walk around with their wife or husband like that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it makes you wonder. No, I think they practice that hard that they're in character all the time. I really do think that. And there's a lot of that. There's a lot of that in this space and it's unfortunate. The other thing too that a lot of people don't, I think maybe don't realize is if you are inauthentic or fake and you experienced this, that's why you got out, okay, because if you are inauthentic and fake and God forbid you do become famous for it, that's torture. Because now you got, most people that love you, you're in a personal role. Not you. Right. Like that's torture. I don't think people realize that. Not making it because you're fake is better than making it because you're fake. Because then you're walking around and you're like, all these people like me for that and that's not who I am, I gotta always be this person. The thing I'm trying to work on myself personally is I feel so triggered when people will start complimenting and going on and on about somebody who's well-known or whatever, famous on social media for whatever reason. And I know who they are. Like I really know who they are. And it just, I wanna like warn the world and I'm like, why does it bug me so much that the average person doesn't actually see through it? The average person doesn't see through the BS, the snake salesman, the snake oil and just the phony, I cannot stand the stupid stuff I see on social media. I'm like, there's nothing real about this. Who's connecting with it? But a lot of people do. And for some reason, I need to ask my therapist, like why does this bug me so much? It's actually a reflection of ourselves. We have the same thing, right? So there's a part of us, you're motivated, very similar to we are, we're motivated because we felt like we did so many people wrong for so long, whether it was intentional or unintentional. I didn't know that. And so that's buried in all of us. It's part of the motivation of why we try and put out such good information, both of us. But the part that probably bothers us is we still see a little bit of our self, our old self in that person. All right, that's fair. We used regular sales tactics, you know? We knew what moved the needle and how to get people to kind of go in the direction we wanted them to and applied it. But yeah, it's totally a guilt thing that started this and just our conversations with our clients of how to filter through that and find their way towards what really works. Like that was the motivation behind the show. So like, we're just getting into that information. It really does. Well, what we're hoping is that we can prove that you can do it the right way and still build a business in the fitness space, which I almost didn't believe at first. I said, okay, you got to kind of be fake and whatever. But we were at that point, we all had businesses already. We were all pretty secure. So we're like, we're gonna do it this way. And if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. We're gonna have a lot of fun. And it's working. So I think you can do it the right way. I think you can do it the right way, you know? So you don't have to be that. It doesn't happen overnight, but I totally agree with that. You've got to be principled. You have to have your values. And I think the average person feels like they see a success story and they're like, oh, so I'm just gonna get like a studio and I'm gonna set up the mics and there's gonna be three of us and you know, it's gonna work. And then when it doesn't in a year, they think, well, why didn't it work for me? But it really takes so much persistence. It does. And so much tenacity and so much like just doing it every single day. It was a slow climb for us. People always think that we like exploded overnight. It's like, nope, the business literally on all wine items has grown 50% year over year since the very first day we turned it on. Wow. Just, you know, it's not a- I'm waiting for the hockey stick. It's been a hockey stick. Sal's been saying we're gonna get this hockey stick for a day. It's like, no, it's just been steady. Do the next right thing. And have you guys always, did you, oh yeah, you always did start with video, didn't you? No. No. Well, we did GoPro, we never released it because it was just like the most boring business. That was one of our biggest mistakes actually. There's two huge mistakes, let's get into this. This would be fun to talk to you about this because of all your success in business too. When I share some of the biggest mistakes we ever made, one, we actually thought email was dead when we first started. Okay. Boy was that a mistake. You're way wrong, I'm wrong. You're friend like Matthew was telling us, he's like, no, no, you gotta have email list. Like, so like three years into the business, we had really thought at that time, this is how naive we were, we had thought that like, oh, social media has now become the new medium instead of email. And so we were starting to kind of focus on that, didn't do any email list. So that was mistake number one. Mistake number two was thinking that, you know, who would want to see three assholes talking into a mic all for two hours? Just sitting still, like there's no way. So, and now obviously the YouTube channel is continuing too. Yeah, but you know what though, looking back, you know. Oh, it all happened for a reason. Yeah, because we weren't media people. I mean, we don't know, we're trainers, we're fitness people. So it's like, we had to, I mean, we would have sucked so bad. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, and we did. We did, we were terrible when we first started. Some people liked us for some reason, but we weren't great. If you listen to some of those first episodes, please don't by the way, it's really embarrassing. Don't put that out there. So what were some of like on your journey of scaling that the empire that you have now, what would have been some like looking back, like, oh, I fucked up there. I should have done that sooner. Oh geez, so many, so many. It's hard to remember them. Water bottles. So I love making habits really simple so you don't have to think about it. You know, habit stacking. And so for me, in order to get enough water, I fill up three water bottles every day. You know, I actually do it the night before and I fill them up so that they're, you know, ready to go in the morning. And then when I'm done drinking all three, I'm done instead of refilling, refilling, refilling. And so I'm like, I'm going to develop these, the system, a water bottle system. And there's going to be a morning water bottle and they're going to have different colors. And then you buy all three and then there's a backpack you can carry them in. And you know, my most loyal fans all were like, yes, the three water bottle system. Not thinking like they could just go to Target and buy three water bottles. So that was a losing proposition. But the biggest, which we probably lost a quarter of a million dollars in is app development. Oh, yeah. And it's funny because I just, every single time we would have our meetings, I would be like, God, I don't want to do this. I don't know what they're talking about. This makes no sense to me. Just keeps getting further away from what I want it to be. I'm so confused. I don't know what you're talking about. I hate these meetings. This is not bringing peace to my life. And I just said to my husband, I'm like, can we just walk away from this? And he's like, we have a lot of money invested. I go, I know, but I hate it. He goes, well, I do too. I go, well, then let's just walk. And we did. That makes me feel so much better. I know. We only lost 75,000. Me and Adam went through that. So it's like it makes me feel a little bit better. That was, we, before we all got together, Justin and I had, we're building a fitness app that of course, of course we thought it was brilliant. So this is what year? This is 2007 years ago. No, we talked about, we've been doing this for eight. It was two years before that. 2013? 2017 probably. Okay, so you would have lost a quarter of a million. Yeah. Go ahead. It was now, yeah, right? It was expensive. We, we were, we were building that. And I mean, knew no idea what we're doing. And I remember just constantly throwing money at like, first it was engineers, right? And then we, then we find out like, well, you need someone to design it. If you want to do that. And everybody quotes you this like, oh, we could do it for this. But we didn't know. Yeah. Each stage is another like $20,000, $30,000. But the lawyer framed it. I'm like, I don't even know. It's like French. I'm listening in on a conversation. I don't know what they're saying. I hate this. So I'm so blessed that we had that experience back when we didn't have the kind of money that we have now. Cause obviously we have the capital to easily do that now. And I remember Justin and I being so staunch about, no. Cause everybody wants that actually. We have a huge audience. It's like, when are you guys going to develop an app? Make an app, make an app. I'm like, hell no. It's such a terrible business. We can deliver the same thing and have a real good experience without all the engineering. Well, I remember when we, we met with somebody and this was the moment for me. I don't know what happened for you guys. It sounds like just being frustrated with it. But the moment for me arrived was like, oh, that was the aha was when I found out that tool apps are virtually worthless when it comes to making money. And gaming apps make 85% of all revenue in the app world. And I thought, okay, well, this is not a good idea to build some fitness app that's basically a tool for all of our audience to use, which sure makes their life a little more convenient and easy but dropping a half a million dollars on something that's probably not going to get its ROI. Dude, that Instagram subscription model is going to take a lot of apps out. Oh yeah. A lot of apps out. Because that's where people are, you know? That's the thing is like when you're asking people to leave a platform and then open up a separate app to get more content from you, that's an ask, you know? And do you guys have a Patreon? No, no. Okay, do you have a paid level of YouTube? No, no, no. So we didn't, so actually what made us start monetize for a year and almost a half, we didn't monetize any of the business. The goal was, can we build an audience? No ads, no nothing. Nothing. We wanted to build value. We wanted to create some authority. Let people, you know, we know what we're talking about. Well, the goal was to prove what we all believed, right? We all believed that we had something to give to people that was of value, but before we even would want to consider making any money, it was like, let's go prove that. Let's go prove that we can provide so much good free content that will build an audience of people. What made us turn on the monetization? Because at that time, Sal and Doug, this is before we even met, had already created an online digital program. So they had a program ready to sell and we did not promote it or talk about it until we actually started to get DMs, man. This is what we always tell entrepreneurs that are trying to build a social media business is we actually got to a point where we were literally daily, each of us, getting messages of people trying to give us money. Do you have a Patreon? Do you have a shirt I can buy? Do you like, you have already helped me so much. Wow, that reciprocity is there. Oh, yeah. And then that was the moment. We realized that we could literally sell anything now because we've already built so much value in these people's lives. You save people time and money when they can trust you. Now I don't have to research. I've outsourced my research to you. I've outsourced the things that matter to me. Like I know because I've got years of listening to you that I can trust you. And that saves people time and money. And it's so valuable and people don't realize that one wrong move and you've lost people's trust. And you just can't do that. You can't take that chance. Yeah, and it's not worth the flash in the pan potential success of ruining your integrity. And especially nowadays, you know, I remember when this switch for the gym industry, you know, back in the day, you could, you know, you could finagle and do, you know, rip people off or be a jerk or whatever. And they might tell a few friends, but no one's going to find out. But these days, it's all over the online. You're one minute gold, the next minute zero, because, you know, you got some bad reviews or you did something the wrong way. So yeah. And that's kind of a scary thing, right? Like people are really quick to cancel and quick to put you on blast without looking at history. But again, when it comes to trust, I think if you're acting in a way that's very principled, that's important. Every single opportunity, you know, I just had this conversation with my son. He has a huge social media following and somebody looks like a great company reached out to him. And he's like, what do you think I should do with this? I said, a lot more research because people really, really trust you. This is a big payday, but dude, like we, you just, you need to do so much more research on this company. Like for me, before I'm going to work with the company, I need to know like, how do they, how do their customer service reps treat people when they call? You know, what, what, what is their history? What's the CEO like? You know, those things kind of matter to me. Yeah. We want to meet all of them. That's so. Yeah. I handle all the partnerships out of our business. And before we do anything with anybody, like we want to court them for like six months. And they're always, people always say, well, we want to give you money for this. Like, no, no, no. Come down, come have dinner with us. Let's hang out, tell me about your business, how you got there, I want to hear their story. Like that all matters, not just if they have some product that aligns with maybe something that we value. It's, it's important that we understand them. Because there's a massive supply of companies that are looking for people who have the most valuable commodity, which is trust. Right. So don't jump. Do you think, do you think that that commodity is even more valuable today than it was before? Because of the market and. Yeah. And because everybody's selling now, right? Like, you know, your mom's a social media influencer. You know, like everybody is selling and selling. Just killing it. Just killing it. So we, we become very like, wait, is this an ad? Are they getting paid? You know, and so I'm just, I think it's really important that we understand because now everybody's selling and everyone's trying to get everyone to sell like micro and nano influencers, right? Companies are no longer working with big, huge influencers because they would rather have someone who's much easier to work with. I don't have to go through their rep. I can work directly with them and pay them directly. And they have a loyal following that trusts them. It might be a small following, but they're actually going to get a return. And there's an unlimited supply of nano influencers. If you define nano influencers, anyone who has over a hundred followers, you know. Wow. Do you think social media has been, it's obviously changed a lot of things. Do you think it's been a net positive or net negative? Oh gosh. That's a great question. It depends on how it's used. You know, because there's so many things that I've learned from social media. It's just so great to be able to say to your audience, hey, does anyone know what this could be? And you get these great responses, or does anyone know a great restaurant to try in San Jose? And there's so many positives that come from it, and there's also a lot of negatives, obviously. I think it's a net positive for people in the room, but I think it's a net negative for the general population. Because they don't know how to... Yeah, because they're easily distracted. They're easily sucked into the rabbit hole. They're easily marketed to... So I would have disagreed with them a while ago, but the reason why I'm starting to agree is because I've had this experience now where I'm at home, and the kids are down, and wife and I have like 45 minutes to watch TV, and I have Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu, and I spend 45 minutes trying to find something to watch because there's so much stuff. So I'm starting to believe that now. It's like, now you're a consumer, and it's like, oh my God, there's this unlimited options. Endless sea of information. What is good? What's bad? Is it just how popular they are? Is it by how they look? Like... And if you have ADD, or ADHD, and everything is... Information is dopamine. It's like, I need another hit on you. And I can't tell you the number of times I've stood in my bathroom, and I can't get in the shower until I have something that I can listen to while I'm in the shower. Yeah. Because like, so I have to find the right YouTube, because I can't take a shower and just shower. I can't spend three minutes without stimulation. What's wrong with me? And now I'm late? Like, this makes no sense. So it does create for a lot of people that think they have... And I think that's why there's an Adderall shortage. I think that's why so many people think they have ADHD is because people are talking about being distracted. Well, how could you not be distracted when you've got notifications and your phone's zinging and you can play a podcast in the background and YouTubes and Netflix and all of these things, information overload. And then we're wondering why we feel distracted. Well, that's why. Have you ever done... Do you ever do like tech fasts where you're like, okay, for the weekend, we're not doing, we're going to turn everything off? Yeah. Do you do that? Yeah, it's really, really hard. Super hard. Really, really hard. I don't like it. Now, how do you feel afterwards? Or why do you keep doing it? Why do I keep doing what? The fast, the tech fast. No, because I know my brain hurts. It's usually when I feel like, there's just so much going on and I need to. But because my job is today, marketing and social media, I kind of have to know what's going on. At least that's my excuse to not take a fast very often. But when I do, it's... Now I find that every time I fast, it's almost like I eat less, right? So every time I fast, when I come back, I consume less and less social media. That's a great point. So now I go on Instagram every day. I really intentionally say, don't look at the Explorer page, just go directly to my DMs. So that I'm going there to connect with my community and not to consume other people's content because I'm too easily distracted. Do you have any... So you made such a phenomenal point, by the way, that this distraction is no longer an issue for people who are neurodivergent, right? ADHD, ADHD. It's now an issue for everybody. Yeah. And I agree with you. I think that's why so many people are medicated who probably don't need to be necessarily because the world is just so crazy and everything follows you all over the place. Where do you find peace for yourself? Is there anything you do on a daily basis? Like for me, it's actually working out. Yes. I identified this a while ago. Like I work out for mental health 100% and everybody makes fun of me for how consistent I am and how neurotic I am about it. But it's like, if I don't do that, I go crazy. And that's the only time when I put my headphones on and I'm here, I'm here. Do you have anything like that for yourself? Well, for sure it's fitness, right? So I won't listen to podcasts when I'm working out. Just music, just explicit rap music. Explicit rap music? Yeah. If you were to say, can I grab your... Gangster rap. Gangster rap. You imagine... West Coast or what? Yeah. Imagine sitting next to her working out and you hear her head full. A little 5 foot 2 blonde listening to gangster rap music. People, when they ask for my Spotify playlist, I'm like, please don't judge me. It's not appropriate. And people are really horrified. I love that about you. I have this thing. I don't trust anybody that doesn't swear. Okay, good. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like I'm swear, for sure. So, and I love roller skate. I love to paint. I love spending time with my husband. We love traveling. You know, it's... You guys are in the thick of it because your kids are young. But like, let me just tell you, it's over in a snap. And I just remember thinking when they were little, like all the sacrifices we were making, like I wonder if opportunities are going to come around when they're gone. I wonder what life's going to be like. But because we were so in it together, the two of us, and had been through a lot of hard things together, when the kids were gone, we were both so looking forward to like just doing whatever the fuck we wanted to, you know. And like, we just decided we're going to travel for the next eight months. We're going to go to Europe. We're going to go to Miami. We're going to go all over and figure out a place to live other than California. And just have fun and like, you know, we love snowboarding and I love to roller skate. And just doing things are physical is how... Because if you're doing something physical, we have to think about it or you could fall like snowboarding. You can't be distracted. It's just... But you're still having to focus. And so that feels good to my brain. I can't just sit and meditate. I'm not good at it. Yeah, it's so hard for me to... Now, okay, so was this a challenge when you had your kids? And let me go a little deeper. So I have four kids, but the age gap is big between them. I wasn't great with this with my older ones. My younger ones, I became more aware of it because... You know, I had... You're wiser. Yeah, like all of a sudden, I realized how fast things went, like bye. And I'm like, oh my God, they're already like teenagers. Like I got these little ones now. I want to be more present. I had this moment I've talked about on the podcast where my two-year-old, he was playing and he was... We were playing and then he went off to play on his own. And I'm like, oh, an opportunity to like go on my phone, right? Yeah. And I said, and I was on my phone and said, you know, let me just watch him. Let me just watch him and just be here. And I put my phone down and I realized, and I don't know how many times this must have happened before that I wasn't even aware of, he would look back at me every once in a while to see if I was watching him. Totally, I totally missed that every time I was on my phone. And so I was like, okay. Did you have challenges with that with your kids where like I need to be present? Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of guilt, especially as a mom, you know, I was work... Running my business from home. We had headquarters, but I would work from home because in my mind, then I'm at home with my kids. But there was a time that I just realized I'm here, but I'm not here. Like they're in the room. I'm at the baseball game, but I'm also doing work in my head. Like it was really hard for me to be present. And I had to figure out how to change that. And that meant doing less. That's really when it forced me to delegate a lot more so that I could be present for them. I think the greatest gift you can give your child is your uninterrupted 1,000% your time. And it doesn't have to be a long time. It doesn't have to be an hour. If you just tell... If your kid literally, and you tell them, listen, I'm putting my phone down, this is just your time. What do you want to do? And if they want to build Legos or paint or whatever it is they want to do, you just sit there without asking them questions, without having any intent other than, I just want to be with you. I think that's the greatest gift you can give your child. The best thing you can do for your kids is give them confidence. Don't do things for them. Tell them they can figure it out. We didn't buy our kids cars. We could definitely have bought them cars. But that was... Here I am 54 years old and I'm still bragging about the fact that I bought my first car. That changed who I am. That my parents didn't say, you can't go to college. They said, yeah, of course you can go to college. And you'll probably figure out a way to pay for it. Like I didn't know it was a negative. I didn't see it as a negative. So I think the greatest thing you can do for your kids is to don't tell them. Let them learn and experience it. You'll figure this. Let's figure this out. You're going to figure this out. And to give them confidence is something a lot of people don't do with their kids. Let's talk a little bit more about that. So this is actually on his top of mind for me right now a lot. So my son's going to be four. I grew up far less privileged than he was. And of course, as a young kid or young boy and teenager, I had resentment to my parents for growing up that way. As a 40 year old man and father now, I'm so grateful for that journey because it's what turned me into who I am today. So one of the things I think about all the time is like, okay, how do I create adversity in my son's life that I had? So he builds the characteristics that I built and with this privilege that he's going to grow up, he's going to grow up completely different than I am. So how did you guys do that? You guys were very successful when they were probably pretty young. What are some things that you guys have done? Did you make a lot of mistakes? Did you guys think you guys did well? What are some things you didn't do well? We'd have to ask them because I'm sure they've got a lot to say about it. But we had them do therapy from a very young age. We had my son start in therapy when he was like six years old just because he was, I forget, he was obsessing about people he would see on the street. Like, well, where's their dad? Like he's a homeless person. And I thought, well, my parents started me in therapy at a very young age. So I want to normalize that. So they're mentally healthy and know that this is like going to the dentist thing you should do. But it's okay to do that. Yeah. And then in terms of the adversity, I don't know that it's adversity. I think it's teaching kids that they have all the resources. It's helping. So for our kids, we would have them start little businesses. But not like, now you got to be the CEO and you got to do this for nine months. Just for a week, you've come up with a great idea and you can go to school and sell this to your friends, that kind of thing. So they would learn like, oh, I can make money. And then when they would have problems, like let's say our daughter didn't want to play for a particular soccer coach, we'd be like, all right. So then how are you going to explain it to them? Instead of going in and saying and doing it for her, letting teaching them like you, this is how you solve these problems. And let's let's role play this and helping them to understand like you have all the tools. When our kids were old enough, they had to buy their own cars and I made them negotiate and I made them do the research. I made them like figure out like what, how they could get scammed and all of those things. I think, so we've been talking about this topic for a while now and I've asked a lot of people. And one of the best answers I got was, and it's right along the lines of what you're saying is they said, well, adversities is in life. Doesn't matter if you have money, you don't have money. There's all kinds of adversity. That it's exactly what you said, don't do for them what they can do for themselves. Because what happens is parents try to remove natural adversity or try to do everything for them and then they never learn. And that's where confidence, like exactly what you said, confidence comes from. It's like that they can fail, they can do something wrong and they could get back up and try again. That's how they become confident. Not by you telling them, you're so great. Oh, you're an awesome, you're great the way you are type of deal. Like that doesn't teach them how to be confident. No, and my parents were like completely, I mean, they're just oblivious to the wild child that they had. And because they didn't drink, they didn't smoke, they don't swear. They're just like Midwest margin bill, like, well, if she says she was home at that time, she was home at that time. So I was like out of control kid. I mean, literally so out of control. The things I did were just, I don't know how I'm alive. And it was just because I could. You know, it was fun. I was a thrill seeker and I loved the risk. I loved taking all those chances. So I was onto my kids. I'm like, oh no, your mom's a ninja. But they, I wanted them to do those things because I know it's all going to work out, you know. And they didn't. And I remember there was a time Brett and I were, we told Brock, we're like, we will pay. We're going to give you a bonus if you get a C because he was so caught up in his grades. We're like, dude, it doesn't matter. You're going to be an entrepreneur. Like you don't have to kill yourself. Cause he's getting A's and B's all the time. Yeah, all A's, you know. Oh my God, it's funny. And we were just like, no, just, just live your life. You know, and, and. Fuck off in class. Yeah. You know, didn't drink, didn't, none of them, they were like too good. I'm like, guy, my thing. Like you said, the way I grew up, I'm like, are they going to be okay if I, they're not taking risks. But what we've, what studies show today is that kids today aren't as risk taking as we were because they've got social media as the dopamine hit. And so they're drinking later, not all, but most of them are drinking later, having sex much later and not experimenting with drugs the way we were. I think it's a, there's like. We debate, we debate, we debate that. Yeah, it's cause and effect. It's like, there's a great book by Gene Torre, it's called iGen. And it has like all the statistics and studies on what you're, what you're talking about. And I think it's because kids can, are more informed. They can Google it. What happens if I get, you know, what's, what happens if I get married at 19, you know, and you can Google like the likelihood you'll stay together or you can Google like the percentage of people that get STDs. So here's the debate. The debate is that there's that position. I think, I don't necessarily agree with that. I think, I don't think informing teenagers is what makes them make good or bad choices. I mean, we knew what was, you know, drugs are bad. Don't have sex. I think what it is is we had to take risks in order to be with our friends. We had to take risks in order to do anything. Now you can go online, communicate with people. You could get pornography whenever you want. So you got that sex hit. Like when I was 15, like, and I wanted to be with a girl, like, it's like my mom's Sears magazine was about as close as I go. Or I had to like get on my bike. I had to go on my bike and ride and go meet and like put myself out there and do stuff. And then, you know, nobody knew where I was and have a cell phone. People were recording me. So we just did, you know, so it's like, it's like risk versus rewards. Like, you know, kids are more kind of like safe now, but they also don't have as much connection. Don't have as much, you know, maybe, maybe toughness around certain things, but they're also not doing as many drugs and not getting pregnant as early. So it's like, all right. Well, and I think too is a big shift in terms of the communication between parents and kids. And, you know, in terms of like the, my growing up, it was very authoritarian. Like this is the way it is. Like it's black and white. Like there's no explanation behind it. You just had to do this or you can't do this or you're going to get kicked out of the house. So were you a good kid because of that? I was, I was very wild, like outside of their knowledge, but I was very good on the surface. So, you know, very similar to that. Yeah, yeah, they have no idea. To this day, did they know? To this day, they have no idea. Okay, we won't tell. Like half the stuff that, yeah, I was part of. But yeah, I honestly, I think that's part of it. So that's something that I noticed about myself and my upbringing. And so like me now trying to at least have these conversations with my kids ahead of time and like not making so much weight behind the conversation of drugs and sex has really opened up a lot more conversations with them, which I feel like it takes some of the air out of it a bit. Yeah. We did a lot of brainwashing of our kids. So we didn't tell them you couldn't do something, but we would be like, oh, did you see that? What a loser. That guy over there smoking. Yeah. Such a loser. You know what I mean? Yeah, smart. Like because we were just trying to brainwash them, you know, and it worked, I guess. Is there anything that you and Brett talk about? Like now you guys lay in bed and you like look at your kids. I'm sure you guys do this, right? Look at like how proud you are and all the great things. Is there things that you guys could be like, man, we should have done more of that or I wish we would have done that with this one. There are things that you guys talk like that that you saw either worked and wish you did more of or something you thought we should have done that. It's hard to say that because, you know, what if my kids are listening to this? I mean, I definitely have regrets over some of the things that like I talked about that they were exposed to, right? In terms of parenting, I think we did a great, like that is my, not perfect, obviously, but I will die feeling successful because we've raised two very confident, kind, self-sufficient, amazing humans. That's wonderful. And that's all that matters. That's wonderful. So they're 23, your daughter's 23. How old is your son? 26. Okay, so looking forward to at some point, relatively soon becoming grandparents? I don't know. That's, you're really pushing it down. I don't know if I'm ready for that, but then we, what, I'll tell you what, we're going to make a lot more money this year because we don't have two weddings to pay for. They both got married a month apart. Oh, really? Yes. Oh, wow. So that's why you're here? Yeah, it was. It was wild. Are they, do they live nearby? Do you guys see each other a lot? They, our son travels around and, and he just went out of place in Park City. Oh, cool. Yeah, he knows wife Taylor. And my daughter, Sierra and her husband, Roman live in Southern California. They live in LA. Oh, awesome. Yeah, yeah. If we were to ask them what, if I were to talk to your kids and say, what did, what did you learn? What are some of the best things you learned from mom and from dad? What do you think they would say? I think they would talk about our relationship. Okay. You know, I think they would say that they knew that we were really into each other and we were a team. I think they would both say, because we've asked them, you know, every year, whenever there's a holiday, we all go around the table and, you know, compliment each other and say what the things that we love. That's nice. And, and I've also had my kids on the podcast without me there and just let them sit and talk. Oh, really? I didn't know that. Just pretty interesting and about what their experiences were. And so it's, and I highly recommend that even when they're, as soon as they're old enough, like, let them do that. It's such a cool thing because we've done it over the years a couple of different times and just to get their perspective, but it's consistent and it's very affirming, you know, to know that like, the things that we did with intention, they picked up on it. They knew that we made them number one and How long have you guys been married? 28 years. Okay. So we got to talk about how to have a successful marriage for that long because that's hard. I mean, you're not the same person today that you were when you first got married. Right. How did you guys grow together and get through all those tough times through, you know, when your kids were infants and then toddlers and then teenagers and businesses, like any advice for people listening right now who are just getting married? Yeah. Go to therapy. You know, I mean, I know I keep saying that, but like my husband had never been to therapy and I always felt like when we were first married, I was on eggshells with him. Like I was really trying to manage his mood. He wasn't, he would never yell, but I could just, you know, you can tell when someone's annoyed. He's moody like me. They call me moody, the moody one, everybody. There you go. And I'm as even as they come. And so I always sense that there was like something and I was constantly saying like, is something wrong? What's wrong? And he would be like, I'd ask it so much that he would say, just you asking that, like if you would stop. But he eventually, like I think it was a struggle dealing with the gambling and his own issues from his childhood. And so when the gambling thing happened, we were almost a half a million dollars in debt. When I discovered it. Yeah. Half a million? Wow. Wow. Wow. You make me feel better about my issue. That's makes me feel a lot better. And then I thought he was cheating. So I was like, Oh, I'm going into PI mode and you don't, like I'm better than the FBI. How did you let a half a million go out the back door? Good question. Because I don't care about money. Obviously not. I mean, that's a, to me, that would be the testament. If anyone ever asks like, there are things that you're money, all about money, you'd be like, no, listen, I let a half a million go out the back door. Was it a relief to know that it wasn't cheating that it was that? Oh yeah. But it also then felt like cheating because, because then I had to put the, like, when did this start? So when you said this trip, when you were going here, when you did that, when we had to, when, and, you know, so it was like piecing all these things together and realizing like, Oh, I didn't even know who you were. And I thought we're on the same team and this resentment. And then, you know, me feeling very like, Oh, you have an addiction and you have been gambling and you are going to go to, so I did all my research and was ready to confront him. And I had my folder with all the receipts and bank statements and phone records and, you know, cell phone records, everything. And I just sat him down and I put the envelope or the folder in front of him and he was like, Oh, like a relief. Yeah. And that really made me mad. But he was relieved and he was like, it's over, you know, and I'm like, yeah, it's over. Like in my mind, I knew before I confront him, I made a decision. I know who I am. So if he says this, I do this. If he says no, I do this. If he says yes, like I had my three options and I knew what I was going to do and he chose to go into treatment and I decided to stay. But what we didn't realize was that I really had an addiction too. And so he was like, you know, my therapist thinks you should go to therapy. I'm like, okay. I'm going to kill it. I'm about to be their best patient ever. They're going to be like, why are you here? So you're basically a hardworking woman here. And then, you know, to find out that I had my own addiction and it was deep. You know, it was and it was a way to avoid. It's any addiction is to avoid. You know, I have friends that have been married for a long time and family members and almost all of them went through some kind of a challenge like this, maybe not gambling, maybe not cheating, but something that where it was like right across roads. Yeah. And the ones that worked through it came out the other end way stronger and tighter. Talk about that because there may be someone listening right now that's going through this and they're like, I don't know if we're going to make it. Like, I don't, you know, do I work through this? Like we have kids together. Do I, what do I do? Yeah. And to fast forward the story, I want to say that we are in 2.0. Like it probably took a couple of years though. There's months and months of like, am I staying? Am I going? Sure. Like having to rebuild. But almost immediately I was married to a different person. I was married to the person I thought he had the potential to be, you know? And then he was, he was a different person. He was funny. He was relaxed. His mood was even. He was patient. He was kinder. Everything. I'm like, then this was worth it. But I will say for those who are like in it, if one party isn't remorseful and wants to fix it, if both parties don't want to fix it, it's probably not going to work. Impossible. Yeah. So I imagine, you know, something like gambling is kind of a rip the band-aid off. It's an obvious problem. It's not a positive thing. I would think that yours was harder and took longer because it's easy to justify. Yeah. You know, hey, I'm bringing money in and we're good. This is all good. So how did you help? Did it take you much longer? And what was that journey like? I think I probably still struggle with it where he doesn't struggle with gambling. I still struggle with it, but I think what really helped was getting to the root core belief that made me feel like I always had to work and what was that experience that made me believe that? What created that belief? Yeah, if it's not money, what is it? What was the belief? Oh, it was why. So I did EMDR therapy. Have you ever heard of that? Oh my God, I'm about to do that. Dude. Yeah. So it's legit, huh? What is that? I'm about to go through that. It rewires your brain. Yeah, it stands for eye movement, reprocessing desensitization. So what they'll do, I'm not a therapist, but this is the layman's way of describing it. They'll ask you to bring up something that's upsetting, that makes you feel on a scale of one to ten, maybe like a nine, and then you don't talk about it, but just sit there and think about it, Sal. Just sit there and think about it till you bring up those feelings. And then they have you watch maybe their finger going back and forth or a light bar, a bunch of different things, and there's something about that that doesn't allow your brain to push it away. So you kind of go back to the memory and you start working through it. And it feels like a dream sequence and you're like, I'm not doing this right because now I'm thinking about that my kid has to be picked up. You know what I mean? Like your brain goes everywhere like in a dream. And then, but what's happening is you've never really processed that thing as an adult. You have pushed it away as a kid and it just sat there and now you're an adult. So you're going to kind of relive it, not relive it, but you just kind of put the files where they need to be. And I'm interesting. So for me, I, they just basically got to the root core of like, why do I feel like I'm important if I'm making other people money or making money and working hard, right? And I remembered a time when my dad was an entrepreneur. He was a liquidator in Detroit. So there's my Detroit necklace. So he would liquidate big chains when they would start to fail. So he got this big deal. It was called Robert Halls. It's like a department store. And he and my mom took all their money and invested it into this bankruptcy deal. They got the deal, but it's in Detroit where it was very cutthroat, like the mob basically. And so they got all of the assets. They're all put into one building in downtown Detroit. And that night, someone sat on fire. So they were wiped out completely. And my dad called me into his office the next maybe a week or so. And he sat me down in an effort to teach me about interest. He said, here's your bank book. I don't even know how much was in it. And he said, now, you know, your mom and I had the fire and we're going to be fine. But what we're going to do is borrow this money and we're going to pay you back more. And I'm like, okay. And he's like, and you know, we're going to pay it back by this date. And you want to show me the schedule of payments. And it was him teaching me. And this is how you just never know your kids are going to process things. The message I received was, I'm a kid and I'm taking care of everything. You're a parent of mine. Yeah. And, you know, from the, I was, I don't know, maybe fourth or fifth grade, but I never asked for a dollar. I didn't ask for lunch money. I didn't ask for, you know, from that point on, I'm like, this is why I'm important. I am saving people. So it was having to like reprocess that and go like, here's, I didn't even remember that it happened. Oh, really? No, no, until I did the MDR. Oh, well, it's wild. Now when you're doing that, is it like hard? And then afterwards, do you feel like, you feel exhausted? Oh, wow. You don't, you process it and keep going. So it's completely different from talk therapy where you're like, I feel better after I left, but then it comes back. With EMDR, it is, there's a beginning, middle and end and it goes, like that thing that triggers you, no longer triggers you. I've done it for so many things now. It's really, you can do it for performance. Like you're like, maybe are afraid to fly or public speaking. You can, it'll be gone forever. Yeah. I agree with what you said about with therapy because I was very like, no, I don't talk to anybody. I handle my own stuff or whatever. My wife's very pro, like talk and communicate. And in my opinion, the reason why it's so valuable is because you don't know where to look. You don't know what to talk about necessarily. So then you sit down and you're forced to talk to someone, they're an expert. And then next thing you know, you're looking where you didn't know to look. And so then that, and you just grow. They connect the dots for you. Well, or you connect them just by them asking some great questions. And the eye movement thing is a trip, especially people like, I don't want to talk about it. You really don't have to talk about it. Yeah. Your brain just does these trippy things. We're, it's also a great way to accelerate growth in the self awareness department, which I think is the greatest skill that you could ever develop. I mean, so I think I was blessed that I was in and out of therapy my whole life. And so I got to, you know, learn all that stuff early on. And so I'm super pro that. So I think that's incredible. So I have a question then, a selfish question related to money since we're around that. So what has your journey and relationship with money been like from all the way childhood to kind of worry you're at now? And do you believe you're still evolving and changing that way? Or do you think you've kind of found? Money for me is just energy. And I, so I never worry about it. Was it always like that? Yeah. And I just, the way that you said, I will figure things out. I'm, you know, I'm going to hustle and figure things out. I never worry about what's next ever. And I have a five year plan. It's, I know I will make enough money to live the life that I want to live. Once you make your first million, everything after that is easy. Because it's making, figuring out how to make your first million that's hard, right? I agree. Then after that, you're like, there's so many ways. And you just want to tell everybody, like there's all these different ways. Just be sick to one and focus. And today, money is like, we worked with this business coach a couple of years ago. And she was so annoyed that I wouldn't give her a number. A dollar about herself. Yeah, that we want to achieve. I'm like, I don't, I doesn't matter. And she's like, this, this just won't work unless you give me this number. I'm like, I don't have a number. It's like, I, I'm comfortable. It's energy. There's always more coming to me. There will always be enough. And that's it. So I'm in this like mastermind type of group where you get invited in. And I'm like a small fish in a big pond. And one of the things we all go around and everybody wants to know about like the businesses and the money you make and what do you want with that? And everyone was so frustrated that I didn't have this like It's okay. End goal. Because I was like, you know, I'm just, I'm at such a really cool place that I get to work with three of my best friends, building something amazing. It fulfills me. We all make plenty of money to do whatever we want. And, you know, I don't know if I want to sell. I don't know if I want to. And I know, and I've already learned that, you know, I could go make more money doing this or another thing here. But if it takes time away from my son and my wife and the things I love to do, then I don't really want to do it. So yeah, I'm not sure why I'm here. I actually just want to meet other successful people and everybody was like, what? Because everybody had this plan. Yeah, 100 million. Yeah, I would exit at this and I want to sell it for that. Yeah. But what they don't ever ask is, are you willing to make the sacrifices? You know, like, do you know, like, vision boards or whatever goal setting, so much of it is centered around a dollar amount and things, right? And so then, but at what cost? And so that's why I'm not going to set an amount because I don't know the, I'll evaluate the costs as I'm starting to experience it. Such a great point. 100%. Yeah, people look at Elon Musk and be like, wow, a billionaire. Do you really want to be Elon Musk? Yeah. Do you really want to be tormented like he is and, you know, have maybe no relationship with your kids? Yeah. Like, do you really want that? We do the same thing with, like, professional athletes. When you were talking about the abs thing, the first thing comes to mind, too, is, like, the way we glorify professional athletes. And it's like, do you know what it takes to be Steph Curry? Do you know the amount of, like, sacrifice that guy it has to, and the amount of focus on his game to be that? Like. And talk about having an identity that is, like, that is your identity. But it's going to come to an end. So now what are you and who are you? Yes. Man, athletes really struggle with that. Tortured. The pros. Tortured. Yeah. Yeah. Once you're no longer the, you know, the superhuman athlete, because you get, you know, you get older. Like, who are you? Yeah. And that's tough. Our good friend, Arthur Brooks, wrote a great book. Do you know who Arthur Brooks is? No, the name. Oh, you would love him. Yes, you would. He is one of my favorite people in the whole world. But he wrote a book about this, and he says that, because if you look at a chart of people when they're successful and they retire, there's this diverging line where some people become sadder, more depressed, other people become happier. The difference is that the doers that become happier after they retire become teachers. So it's like, I do, do, do, do, now I retire, now I teach others to do what I did. So fulfilling. That's where they, that's where they get the full time. Do you feel like you're teaching? Yeah. Every day. Is that the coolest thing? Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting that you said your favorite part of your business was the podcast, because I think that's, I don't think, we've all agreed that if we were to sell other legs off or cash out, this part of it is the part that we would do for free. Yeah. So it's like, in that case, we really enjoyed that. So our sponsors hear that out. And what a gift, right? Absolutely, absolutely. It's such a cool medium. Absolutely. You know what the best part is? What? We get to meet people like you. Aw, thank you. I get this wonderful excuse to invite people in that I normally wouldn't meet you. Literally. Yeah. It's the coolest thing in the world. It's so awesome. And I was so pumped up to be here, I can't even tell you, because I love your vibe and the realness and that to me gives me energy. It just sucks the lifeblood out of me when I'm talking, doing an interview with someone who I know it's like, oh, this is so dumb and this is so fake and oh, I hate it. Like, just shoot me. That's why I love doing solo interviews on my podcast. I solo interviews. Interviewing myself. I love just talking. But, and the interviews are tough, you know, unless I get someone who can really just have a conversation. Our interviews perform worse for us than our, before you walked in, her and I were talking about this. So now we only interview people who are interested in talking. So I won't take it personally. I think you're good. I think you're going to cry. Shit. No way, for sure. Yeah, you have a much different vibe. Anybody that you've interviewed that changed your mind, blew your mind, or that you really like fell in love with afterwards? Like, I was like, he brought up Arthur Brooks. Someone I had no idea really about him, other than his documentary on Netflix, like fell in love with that guy after we met him, would have never thought. So have you, have you had guests like that? I've had, I can't think of like, going all the way back right now. But the most recent one was like, Jen Cohen, you know. She's got that effect. Yeah, she was just real. Really appreciated that. And there have been some people who are just like soup, when they're super real. And I think it's, oh, it's another book interview. You know what I mean? Like that drives me crazy. And now I just don't even take pitches. It's like, if I find the person really interesting, and I don't care if they have a zero following. Like I found this gal on YouTube, we had like, I don't know, 100 subscribers. But she was talking about being an adult child of an alcoholic. And I'm like, I just love the way she talked about it. And I'm like, I got to have her. Like I like looking for people who are interesting and real. Because you learn in this medium, the person, the bigger the name is, you invite them in, it's just a little bit more hassle. And they're, they're not going to promote it. For sure. And people have seen them on every other, especially when it's a book. Okay, now you're on 19 podcasts the same week. Yes, the same conversation. I won't do it. Yeah, we feel the same. Well, this has been awesome. Thank you guys. Yeah, I really appreciate you guys coming down. It's been such a treat for me. Super great. Keep doing what you're doing. Such an honor. Such an honor. Honor for us. Thank you. So thanks for coming on. Thank you. Absolutely thanks. Today we're going to teach you everything you need to know to build a strong, well-developed chest. When I think of weak points and areas that I struggled with developing for a really long time, chest was up there with the work. Yeah, it was for me. It was for me for sure. I got more caught up in the weight I could lift versus how I was developing my body. I think it's one of the most challenging muscles to develop for most people because the form and technique.