 Hello, sir. Good morning. Good morning. My name is Noel, a logo. Noel. Yeah And um today we're gonna talk about We're gonna use the experiences you have as like an emeriti to help And have like archives for the The historians to come so we're gonna ask a few questions and hope it's as lively as possible Okay, happy to apply All right, sir. So firstly We want to know When did you come into the University and why like is there any small story? Well, I came in 1965 to teach in the architecture program and I came from the East Coast You still will hear an accent. I have not lost it after over 40 50 years now, right? I Came because I liked what they were doing. I had been Doing some part-time teaching at Harvard at the Graduate School of Design a couple of universities Quiet if I was interested in teaching and one was Rhode Island School of Design And I knew the person who was running that program. I was interested But I grew up in Providence. My wife said we're not going back to Providence I Was also Interviewed here in Cincinnati. I was very impressed with what they were trying to do and We came to Cincinnati. I promised my wife two years We really like Cincinnati and we like the University and The architecture program was one of the best throughout my tenure at the University was one of the top programs in the country And you said you've been In Cincinnati for 15 years, right? Fifty fifty-four 1965 we came and While we thought about leaving several times. We just enjoyed the city. It was a great city to raise a family We had a lot of dear friends here in the University of the program Particularly in the architecture program was very dynamic and very interesting to be part of So just a little bit before we delve into Cincinnati stuff I saw that you attended Harvard University Went to Harvard College and Harvard Graduate School of Design I'm not a doctor Today is Dr. Smith in our telephone When I graduated the terminal degree actually was a bachelor's Which is similar to what used to be for the lawyers at that time. You got an LLB My bachelor's was converted to a master's Doctorates in architecture Didn't really become prevalent until the late 60s early 70s So my terminal degree is a master's So I'm not a doctor Okay, so I want to know a few things you are passionate about to help lead the conversation. So Just a few things. Well, I As I said, I came to Cincinnati in part. I remember going home Telling my wife that I was impressed with what they were trying to do in Cincinnati. There were a number of faculty who I had met I Got along with them very well writing out my interview they had a new thought about education and I had felt although I went to a school that has an extraordinarily good reputation That I had not been Educated I had learned through osmosis through my association with other very competent talented young people But I don't think they taught us about architecture in particularly architectural design you learn by Like an apprenticeship program you learn by following what Excuse me the teacher told you to do or try to emulate what he might or she might have done But they didn't really teach you and when we came out to here We were talking about education and I was very impressed with that And I spent a lot of time thinking about education because I had gone to an Undergraduate liberal arts college and then going to graduate school for my professional education In Cincinnati was an undergraduate professional program and I had to spend some serious time thinking about How could I participate in a program? Which was not what I felt was appropriate for me, and I realized that Not the same type of education is not appropriate for everybody Look back now, and I realized that we don't spend enough time understanding why people go on beyond high school to get additional education and I believe we have Diminished the value of college education because we talk about college Which out without necessarily talking about why what are you there for? Undergraduate education in the liberal arts college is to become quote-unquote a philosopher to think about the great things not to train you for a job and Our undergraduate professional program and architecture was essentially Job training judge job preparation and we needed to expand the education of the young people to increase Expose them to literature philosophy history. I think today We don't we don't do that We just everyone goes to college But most people go to college because they want to be professionally trained and we haven't really clarified that Long answer to that is a very important questions why I came to the Cincinnati I spent time thinking about education and I wish we would spend more time thinking about it and throughout my tenure in the architecture program The faculty was a team and we talked and we discussed and we argued we really spent time working together Doesn't happen as much anymore My previous interview with this that was dr. Frank Tepe He also said the same for you about like the reason why we are supposed to be in college that is training and not necessarily preparing you for the for the job market, so Yeah, you think that really yes, I know Frank but it's we We're not we're not developing the educational program with the clear understanding of what the intentions are and I have three children And one of my youngest actually went to industrial design he did not want to go to College in the sense of getting a general liberal arts education my oldest child went we sent her to Bonnet because she was very interested in the liberal arts education and Different strokes of different folks. Yeah, and you should understand it But right now we just everyone should go to college without understanding what that means Okay, sir. Can you say it's through your higher-up process? High-ranking process Well actually I Was recommended in Cincinnati by a former employer who was actually my a professor of mine Who I had worked with after I graduated actually when I was in graduate school and then after I finished graduate school at Harvard and I actually he taught Classes and I often was teaching his classes. He was in He was an engineer in practice and if he couldn't make the class he would send me to go and teach so I was teaching Classes and I was teaching my own class at Harvard and I was really enjoying it Although I had never intended to be in the academic field. I was gonna be a practitioner architect He had recommended he and I together jointly wrote it an article that was published in one of the architectural magazines And my particular area he's an engineer is environmental control systems Heeding air conditioning lighting acoustics and He was came to Cincinnati gave a lecture and they asked him to see want to come and teach Here in Cincinnati. He said he wasn't interested, but he said if they wanted a young person They should contact me and they did and at that time I had as I said before I was talking to someone about teaching at Rhode Island School of Design I was starting to seriously think about it I Talk a lot, so I'll tell you but the the issue was I was very upset with what I had experienced at the Harvard Graduate School of Design it wasn't education and Complained a lot. I complained a lot Talk a lot. I complained a lot and I realized that I When I was given the opportunity to teach I either had to Shut up and stop complaining or try to pick up the challenge and see if I could do better and When I came to Cincinnati for the interview I immediately found people who were seriously questioning what an architectural education should be And I was very impressed with that and we carried on those conversations for most of my tenure here as a professor so the interview very early on was Involving talking about architectural education. I was impressed by their commitment their Comorattery That doesn't mean that we didn't argue or they didn't disagree, but they were willing to talk things out and That's an interesting thing too. I call it East Coast Brashnish a lot of these people had spent time on the East Coast versus Midwest Corgiality in Cincinnati people don't like to argue You know whereas sometimes arguments are important It doesn't mean it doesn't mean when you argue that you have to fight You're disagreeing on an issue when you're trying to understand each other and unfortunately Midwest Corgiality as I've called it sometimes everyone says yes. Yes. Yes Doesn't mean they agree with you and you walk away not understanding with what their position is I found out that with the people that I was going to teach with there was an Open discussions and I enjoyed that Don't like it I said, do you want can you talk to us about a typical your typical like class setting like What did you hope like your students to go in and were you able to? impact as you weren't too happy with your With what you were experiencing. Were you able to like? You said earlier on you wanted to do better were you able to like do better and do you feel good about that I? Hope I was able to in terms of I had our commitment as I said I had worked for an engineer. I was teaching engineering the Approach to my classes the engineering classes was not to make them little engineers Oftentimes students would take Heeding air conditioning structural classes. This is the technology classes and I would say to make them little engineers So that if it was a small project, they didn't have to hire an engineer I wanted to make them mature designers. So my approach to teaching these classes was to Introduce students to the technical issues as a way to inform their design The other thing was I was teaching Engineering classes, but I am an architect and I also taught the design classes and so The intention was to introduce them to design Phenologies and also to get them to explore Hopefully the technical things I introduced in lecture as to how they might inform their designs Design to me is a problem-solving endeavor and I will try to get students to understand that you explore the potentials of the problem that are presented by the Design intention you explore the potentials with inherent within the problem. You're trying to solve rather than impose a predigested solution At towards the end of my teaching for 10-15 years. I taught the introductory design classes Because that was something I was very committed to how do you introduce a young person into the thinking as a designer And it's not too. Oh, I like this thing, you know Imposing I want to find out what the nature of the problem is and let the solution evolve From the problem from a response to the problem rather than just be you can't you know forced to fit into And and I think that's one of the problems of architecture today. You see a lot of buildings that Not a response to the problem, but you know in the expression of the design is personal feeling we have a building on campus number of building done by Significant architects they're called the signature architects and the Frank Gary building is the one that's on the medical center Which is a building that doesn't work. Well, but it's got this kind of form that somewhat looks like Frank Gary And you wonder what does the form have anything that he's used this bulbous form? What does that have to do with the problem of the? occupants So that was With my intention so I spent always it was as a designer and teaching the Technology, but the technology is to understand that and again in terms of concepts and principles Rather than solutions and that to me is Even though an undergraduate professional Education is there it still should be founded on understanding concepts and principles not solutions So I want to know I also want to know like what was like your Relationship life with your colleagues like those in the same department or outside Well the relationship in the architecture, which then ended up architecture and dear interior design I loved it. We got along as I said we would often be having intense discussions When my closest and dearest friends Was Dennis man who I talked with for almost 50 years I've met Dennis vicariously When I was at Harvard as an undergraduate because two of my roommates in my last year at the college Came from Cincinnati and they kept tell talking about their friend Dennis man who was studying architecture in Cincinnati Well Dennis and I taught for together for almost 50 years and we became dear friends We would argue all the time and some of the younger faculty would Get upset and we would be arguing about architectural issues But we weren't fighting we would that arguing different interpretations and positions and we generally agreed But we that was just the way we went and that's the kind of Dialogue that I had with most of the colleagues. They were very intense and Open and we shared ideas. We didn't necessarily agree at the beginning but we generally reached consensus and Our program was built upon the consensual model that we would Discuss things we would work together It broke down towards the end of My tenure here that things we weren't faculty to me a faculty is a group of people who interact Not just the people who teach and that kind of Community was not as strong as I had throughout most of my tenure here, which I really appreciated then I Also got involved with the university I became involved in university governance and I think I'm still the only person who served two times as chair of the university faculty So I served two terms And I got involved with broader university issues in it it I Served time also as an administrator I was a chair which is a little different in our program the chair of the architecture program Was more in terms of trying to organize the faculty collectively than being an administrator per se but one of the critical issues really which I think is a problem today is I believe a Subject should be taught by the academic discipline That that falls into when I was chair of the architectural faculty Who wasn't performance-based budgeting, which is now what happens? It was Just an attempt to fact that we were needed to increase our revenue generation And I was also working very actively on the general education program so I was no longer chair of the university faculty was chair of the architecture program and I Had been one of the members of the team who wrote the Finally, if you accept the general education program that we developed in the university We had a math requirement In architecture students according to general education had to take a math class Course and Math department couldn't Handle it because we would send over a hundred students and they didn't have faculty to teach it They said if you send us those students we have to hire adjuncts Well, I'm thinking if I send my students to math then all of the Income that they generate is lost to us Why don't I just hire a? Math adjunct professor And teach the math in in architecture, then we'll generate more income for architecture, but that ran against my Principle that the discipline should be taught by that By that discipline that subject should be taught by the discipline represented by that subject And that's happening right now at the university Arts and Sciences is suffering because a lot of other programs to generate income Teaching classes, I don't think they should it also diminishes the education for the students Being an undergraduate in a liberal arts program I spent four years with Are the young people who are going to study other things? medicine law business and I know how they think When you're only with people studying your field you think everybody thinks that way we don't think alike a Dear friend of mine David man who happens to be on City Council here Related to Dennis man But David man actually was a classmate of mine At Harvard who I didn't know he was from Cincinnati, but I didn't know him I knew some other people from Cincinnati But one time I was doing some work with Dennis and we were talking in his comment to me This was a number years ago. He said David. I enjoy listening Observing how you think because you think differently than I do because I was approaching a design issue And I was talking about some things which he had never thought about and that's true And I think we should all have that kind of exposure. So when you're taking your Math class or history class or whatever with everybody else from your program. You think everybody thinks the same way you do In a sense, and you really shouldn't be exposed to people having different completely different ways of approaching and Learn from that and appreciate that. So I think there's a value not only in terms Financial in support and a whole variety of things, but for the students But you should be going to take a math class of the math department and not only with People from your discipline. You don't get that if you take a you know It was a class that when I first came it was physics for architects And it was taught by a professor from I think it was Science we didn't want them to take physics for architects if you want to think physics think about physics physics for architects is Not the way to approach things That's a long again but buddy if also, I think like With organic like you see some subjects. I think like if you take like just raw physics Doesn't it's like teach things that don't that's not like really Necessary for like the it's cause at a moment or oh, yes You know, you're not again education is in training Training is you learn how to do the thing you need to do In reality If a person who's been educated versus a person who's trained The person who's trained is probably better off doing the job Immediately upon the end of the training and they won't ask questions The person who's educated will be asking questions and will be able to develop and mature Over a period of time training. I know what to do Well, I also learned that working for an engineering firm as I said when I worked for my Professor as an engineering firm heating air conditioning plumbing lighting I realized most of the people In fact, all but my boss my professor were not a college educated. They were all trained They could solve the problem The way they solved the problem before I wasn't they didn't solve the problem They could do what they did before they could repeat it and there was a An example of that where You could see they didn't understand the concepts and principles and therefore they could only repeat and they couldn't Evolve and develop so I believe that Education is important and you learn things and you don't necessarily Learn only the things that are applicable to what you're doing Get architect physics or architects is not to me. I think it's physics That's that's exciting and learn to apply it And of course when you're working as a designer or anything the person people you're working for on the architects He has you have to design for them and I understand them. Okay, um, what did you what do you like? feel About I like the interaction with like administration like your Well, I I worked with the administration. I was Governance as I said when I really got involved with a I was on the faculty Senate and then it became chair of the University faculty with very little real understanding of what at all was and I Had a meet with at that time president Stega Joseph Stega was president of the And I had a meet with Joseph Stega When I got elected as chair of the university faculty In my first conversation with them and I was that I was not paired he informed me that the administration had rejected The request that the chair of the university faculty would become part of the cabinet the president's cabinet At the time president Stega had a cabinet where he had the heads of certain programs the provost There was a provost for the medical center. They're separate. There was the Head of facilities. They thought these people had his cabinet and he told me that They wouldn't accept the fact that the chair would sit as a member of his cabinet. I Wasn't really aware that one of the issues but I Realized that I thought that that was a bad mistake because first of all faculty had voted it The faculty Senate had voted and I thought they should respect that and I Said like what I was saying before I thought it would be valuable for the Cabinet the president's cabinet the university cabinet to have the input from faculty on issues and I argued that point and I also said I realized that there would be some issues that the faculty should not be part of And if I were there, I would have to recuse myself You know salaries of certain things on financial but but you should see the perspective of of the faculty and At that point he said well, I'll go back and discuss it could be a little intense discussion on this thing and Week later he called me and he said we're going to try it so I guess I argued the point and he at that time had a The assistant who was a former military man, and he was I think can't remember his name right now He was very unhappy about this in the military. The troops don't make decisions. You know, and I'm part of the troops and After two years and he was retiring and I was retiring he Wrote me a note and said he was wrong that having me there at the table Really helped because I would present the faculty point of view doesn't mean that I won but I would present the fact that point of view and That's another issue throughout the cabinet and most of the things I've been involved with When when you work with people You express you give input and you discuss but there's so many boards now where All you would all they want is your money that sometimes in in your your Affirmation, yes, they don't want your input and I think the better decisions are made when you Discuss things. I sometimes refer to it as argue. I mean really argue discuss things Present your opinion and through that Hopefully come to a better solution and that's compromise You know my colleague of mine said the least worst The least worst resolution compromise you come to a point where you say hey, that's pretty good. Everyone can agree. Let's move on Not You know not right and wrong Time no So sir Whether any incidents or events like in the school that Really interested you or like disappointed you I know that you're going to be a lot. There are a lot of things that interested me and so few things that disappointed me What interested me most is becoming a better architectural program. I jokingly said Throughout my tenure here. We were one of the top architecture programs in the country listed in top five often number one since my retirement We don't get listed anymore Part of the thing is that What frustrates me is when you try to do something just because It's the thing to do or expedite one of the things that bothered me Again, one of the reasons I retired when I did because I felt I was still Enjoying what I was doing was the conversion of the university to the quote Semestice calendar Because of where co-op We're a trimester system. We're not a semester system. We were told we had to call it semesters Well, we're not semesters and I think as an academic I don't call something a semester if it isn't a semester And yet so I refuse to use the term semester. It's terms. We have three terms But there was no real discussion about the three terms the idea that you could Compensate for the shorter length of the term By adding a few minutes the end of the lecture is ludicrous our lectures went for an hour and You might argue what is an hour or an hour and a half lecture Is that the right length of time? But still you have a topic that you can cover in an hour maybe two topics But adding a few minutes doesn't mean you can introduce a new topic So our students are shortchanged. So yes, they get the same minutes Of instruction, but they don't get the same instruction. That's ludicrous and yet this University was willing to go along because I guess we had to the governor said we're going to semesters Well, we didn't go to semesters. We went to a trimester program. The intention of the trimester Was that every university state-run university And two-year colleges would all be on the same calendar. We're not So why did you demand that you do that in in co-op college, which to me is an extraordinary Educational system and it's unique initiative. Well, it's not unique anymore But it started here in Cincinnati. It's an extraordinary way to get an education if that's the way you want to go Um was much better under the quarter system and uh Doesn't work as well And it also changed the quality of education in my opinion Because when you were in the co-op program, the number of students were divided To turn now you have all the students together Teaching a class with 50 students Is quite different teaching a class with 100 students In terms of particularly lectures or that kind of formal presentation And this really was no real discussion about that. This is just what we're going to do There are a lot of things like that really frustrating. We in architecture made a big Decision we went to a graduate program from an undergraduate program and we never really discussed This is towards the end of my tenure. We never really discussed why or how We thought we were doing it Then the program was implemented and there was nobody there to guide us to make to give us the direction Now they're talking maybe about going back to an undergraduate program So I mean what to me the frustration is We didn't have those kinds of discussions. I came here because we did I stayed here with the discussions on the President's cabinet. It was wonderful discussions. They were open discussions And now it seems You know, let's just move ahead and do what's simple and the conversion to the calendar conversion. I think that's an issue Even in our own University, we have schools that don't follow the same calendar. That's okay. That's okay. We're not all the same It's a university. It's a big system and to assume that we're all alike That's to me one of the fundamental principles that really we assume everyone's alike And we're not and we should we should embrace that difference rather than fight against Or even put blinders on this room that we're not different I like the difference Are they other Events that The mistake would disappoint any of you or it's just No, the mistake that that was an example. I think the uh, the open dialogue that we had It was the semester Imposed semester system In architecture was the change of a degree without really thinking about what it There were changes in terms of Administrative organization Years ago when I was chair and I was talking about teaching a math class I spoke to my brother who was then acting provost Another university And I was asking him What did they do? Well, a lot of universities if you have your students And I say your students your majors If they go from your college to another college or another unit you share the tuition Yeah, so there's an advantage for you. I don't have to teach them So the cost of teaching is not carried by me But I get a certain advantage because I attracted the students So there's you are running a business. So you share the university Cincinnati doesn't do that Your uh, departmental Income will say is based upon FTE's students Scholarship and full-time equivalent students. So you you get your Budget based on that So the fact of the matter is there's no incentive to send the student elsewhere because you lose all that money whereas when you have a A mutual Students go back and forth and I think that's what a university should be about students Interacting with other students. This university is not financially structured that way And we do not have the administration that tries to really understand what what do we do the one of the things that Cincinnati was often Which I fought against Was called silos each college stood on its own And we used to join together. Well, one of the problems was In in in the former before we went to the quarter system you had Co-op colleges on the quarter calendar and you had other colleges on the semester calendar So all of the classes in the co-op colleges were taught in that college So math was taught in my architecture because You were on a different calendar when we went to a common calendar Then we had we started to break down the silos And I believe a university by its name is joining together of different units And we should encourage that and what we're doing is not encouraging Collaboration they talk about interdisciplinary but interdisciplinary systems Need a structure that really supports it. I don't believe we have that So I think that's that's a frustration. We fought against the silo mentality. I think we we did it I think we're going back to a silo mentality More than we should in one of the things that really upsets me is The strength of arts and sciences that the arts and science program is the core of the university And people don't see it that way arts and science is not a service unit. It's the core of the university It's where you study philosophy and history and science And uh, we should be strengthening the arts and science colleges and where I don't think the university is doing that As effectively What is your major? Um, I do environmental science. So Environmental studies, yeah What college it's in It's some college like environmental studies. It was introduced. I think about Four years ago. It's a new new one. Yeah, so it's just by itself. It's not in the college That was a very important issue Yeah, especially in this, you know In this time when environmental issues are so critical um Always enjoyed when they built the epa. I think it's under arts and science though It's still like outside. It's still not outside by just that they they have like its solo department like Yeah, yeah, but I owe you the epa that's yeah, yeah, yeah When they would use the chemical spray on their lawn That's how the interesting this spraying chemicals in here is this place supposedly taken care of the environment And if you look architecturally at their building how non environmentally responsive their building design is You know the sun Has a path that's rises in the east and sets in the west It doesn't hit from the north the same way as it hits from the south if the building doesn't Reflect that at all. So there's a building. That's not environmentally responsive It's always find that very interesting Yeah, so um, sir Okay, let's talk about how the university Responds to your needs personally Like my needs. Yeah, well whether to still do like how you want it did very well as a as a retired faculty member One of the jokes I always had is when I came for my interview The central administration interview was with Ralph Bursik So he was vice president of the university head of finance And here I am a young kid coming and I'm getting my interview and I have Sit down and Ralph Bursik tells me What's good about the university is such a retirement program for the faculty and I'm thinking Who cares I'm 25 years old. I'm here for two years. My promise my wife We're here two years. Well, who cares? Well, I care very much today. Yes, indeed. They had a very good retirement program the university well I've talked a lot about things I see wrong with the university. I enjoyed the opportunity to work with administrators who were willing to Dialogue that I enjoyed I have as I said, I haven't been there. I've been retired now for seven years and I've been out of that kind of discussion for probably 15 20 years so I go my own way Like I don't know how much of a response to that All right, so and let's talk about how since you started working like how has like the students how do I say How have students changed over time? one of the things that As I mentioned you that was really an advantage of my graduates program wasn't the educational program from the university But was the association with good students It had to be a good student to get a half after getting to the graduate school of design They often joked the most difficult thing about going to Harvard was getting in Because of our reputation And he had a very good reputation in architecture. We attracted very good students And that was to me a very important thing it's interesting that times have changed when a Woman a young lady wanted to come into architecture. They were directed to interior design And so we had an interior design program that was almost totally Female and architecture was totally male. We changed that We struggled and worked hard and There's still the interior design program is predominantly female, but architecture is all basically 50 50 And we brought education together At the introductory level the interior design students and the architect study together So when I was teaching the first year introductory design, which was a combined program We were predominantly female And that that changed a quite a quite a different situation But I think that again that's the people or Women were directed to go into interior design Uh, I mean there there's preconceptions. You don't want to you know I was told that that architecture wasn't for me because i'm jewish and they said jews don't go into architecture Well, there are some but today there are a number of well known, but It wasn't it was just not what you do, you know those kinds of things which is ridiculous um do what you Interested in and you're capable of so that's students I was the students were very good students are inquisitive Unfortunately as I used to say to the students when I taught the introductory level What got them here Isn't what they have to know as a designer What gets you to the university? The selective enrollment is knowing the right answer to a question. You know, you know, sat questions In design As I said, you don't impose a solution to the problem you explore the problem And if you're thought, I mean, this is why we rarely had to get them to change the way of thinking When you take the sat you're going to know, which is the right answer To be a good designer, you're going to say well, under this certain circumstances, maybe a isn't the best answer But c could be If now you start thinking that way you won't do well on the exam But if you want to do I think almost anything that's how you proceed. Wait a minute Now those kinds of questions, so they're wrong you think about it you know, so We spend time actually Getting they're very smart. Our students are smart but getting them to to benefit from their intelligence to explore other possibilities rather than merely give me The expected answer answer, which is what people appreciate, you know, give me the right answer Oh, you're smart. No, but the guy who guy who's arguing Under certain circumstances the wrong answer could be right And maybe it would be better if we could do that Yeah, that's the kind of person that Appreciate so but I think if you Nurture your students and they one of the great things about architectural education. We have studios in the studios Until they got they've actually more too many students now in the studio you had about 15 students and you are one-on-one with them and you're doing a design project So you have a real close interaction with your students And the students with you And first day here. I am an older guy teaching kids coming in from high school And I asked them what are you going to call me? You know, Professor Smith, Mr. Smith, Dr. Smith, I said no, you call me David Because I have more experience, but I don't have the answers We're not here to find the answers. We're here to explore the possibilities and that's a very important thing You come to the university to explore possibilities. You don't come to get answers. That's training. That's brainwashing So really work with students and our first year students in a close intimate relationship And we had projects that were intended to do that. We got to be Learners together co-learners with our students that to me is very important And I didn't understand that when I started to teach I remember President Warren Venice of the university Was a friend and one day I was talking to him Actually, I was building a deck on my house in Clifton And he stopped by and his way home and we were chatting in I told Warren that I was getting I was still a young kid I was I was Getting a tense by trying to be correct And he's the one who said David as a professor. You don't have to be correct You're exploring ideas and that's how you should approach and that to me was a very important thing that I wasn't Put as a professor to be Correct to give the right answers to give truth I was there just because we were exploring and I don't think that's done enough in in in our design That's what we were trying to do I'm not certain I was able to convey that feeling in my lecture classes as much as I would have liked to in the design studio Let's explore possibilities I think I was I hope I was able to do that All right, and also still on the question of um, what are the things that changes that change I want to ask like what are the things that change like in terms of like diversity between the faculty and like students How did that change? There are more women Which is good more women the faculty as well as the student Um, I come from a somewhat unique background. My mother was a doctor Uh, most of my Mother impact my parents friends were many of them were professional women Uh, I didn't realize and I've got aunts and lawyers and judges. I didn't realize What what was going on in you know, the glass ceiling. It was just to me I just it wasn't part of my the position of a woman. I didn't know what that meant But I realized and looking at guess there was a male dominated society And we've we've changed that I think and that's for the good We minorities Uh, we have very few blacks. We've brought in some And I think it's important, uh, I mean one of uh My colleagues would park in bernard woods African-american and he would get stopped by the police often walking up to the campus. What are you doing here? I've come I teach you know in in in to be in to be able to understand that and have people open have open discussions about those kinds of things Um I think important in the students. I think need that exposure And I think but I don't think we've we've done enough I think our kids today have a much better understanding Of things I hope I know my kids Have grown up in a much more integrated society and have friends of They have women friends purel friends who want girl friends and in the notion that I say they have Uh, uh different interracial experiences and they're just friends And I think if we can build upon that things will be a lot better off I grew up when that wasn't particularly The situation and that's and that's one of the things that bothers me so much about Our society today is that many of us have thoughts that are inappropriate But we know they're inappropriate and and we Because we have different exposures But the times have changed and we shouldn't have those thoughts but today There's in our society, they're okay to say no, they're not okay to say and there are things to You know that we need to understand so I think the university is moving in the right direction. We're not moving fast enough, but You know, but it's it's a very serious issue. Sometimes I joke about it about women and I some of my Uh, uh, female friends get really happy with me. I don't know that you know, I was trying to make a joke And I'm told you don't joke about those things and they're right. You don't joke about those things because they're serious and uh people have suffered from Timekeeper so um So moving forward. Okay. I want to ask the question about You can add all these questions together like, um, how do you see the interaction between like, uh, Cincinnati and its neighborhood Um, in the sense that since it was once like a municipal university moving into that Cincinnati was a municipal Cincinnati itself was one of the reasons why I liked Cincinnati and I've stayed here And it's true about the University of Cincinnati too Cincinnati is its own city It wasn't trying to be an eastern city. It wasn't trying to be a western. It was its own city It does what it does and does it well um We were a city school But one of the you know, it was really impressed upon me John Wenye came in was one of our direct school directors during my tenure vodka vector interior design And he came from England and when he came he said something which I thought was very interesting Which was something that I had done too What is Cincinnati? Let's not be You know the Harvard of of of Ohio. No, whatever. Let's be what we are And uh again, it's the same approach that I had to design figure out what the nature of the problem is and resolve it Um, so Cincinnati was a municipal school. We were committed to the community The urban fabric to to serve this community when we became the state We were worrying about competing with Ohio state. Who cares? You know, I don't give a damn. Ohio state's Ohio state. We're Cincinnati. Let's do what we do And it's the same thing. We were an undergraduate co-op professional Architecture program. Let's do what we do and do it as well as we can Let's not try to compete with anybody else in that sense Let's try to do Compete with ourselves be the best we can be and when you do that you become very good You know when you're trying to compete about something somebody else or try to be somebody else I use to tell my students, you know I might think I'm going to get up to hit the ball at baseball and hit the home run But if I can't I won't you know, just do what you do as well as you can and if you've got it You'll succeed and we for oftentimes we did succeed. Cincinnati had some extraordinary programs We weren't competing we weren't With anybody else. We were just doing ourselves. I used to get very frustrated with with hire somebody And they'd say well, you know, you could even say well at the University of Mississippi Wait a minute You're not ranked who will you if it's a good idea, but don't have to you know Talk about a good idea not that they used to do it And we should do because they do it. Let's do what we do We have extra, you know, this the city has become extraordinary It's getting better, but Cincinnati's little town has one of the greatest orchestras in the country And it has all the time. It has great theater. It now has great restaurants We used to have three five star Restaurants know what the city in the world have so many good restaurants that Cincinnati did Now we have a real new scene the over the Rhine and it's extraordinary Uh, so no the things have changed. I think It always does frustrate me that when you do what you do to compete with somebody else Rather than do what you do because that's what you do Do as well as you can so I I don't Like you know the competition with Ohio State is not to me Value it have a good competition, but be as good as you can be Don't try to be play someone else's game Not I think that's a good lesson for life Be who you are as do what you can in somebody else does something else. That's fine. That's okay for them And don't be don't be threatened You shouldn't be threatened By someone else. I mean to me It's a kind of principle because of A variety of things, but Somebody's else opinion doesn't threaten me Opinion that because I know what I know because I know it or I want to know whether something you don't threaten me Uh, oftentimes when someone has a different opinion, you you're threatened because You're not sure of your own position You know, if someone else believes different than I do and I feel threatened and Well, there are some things if someone Hates me But I mean if someone's position is different than mine, it doesn't threaten my belief I mean, there are a lot of people who are threatened in terms of religious belief by someone believing else else. Why? Okay for them. I I know what I believe in they don't threaten my belief system But people don't see it that way if you believe this different than me then you threaten my belief No, not at all and we don't have to agree on these these issues so Again, that's back to consensus. It's not that one position has to dominate Just agree You can do what you want. I can do what I want. Let's not fight against it You don't threaten me by believing something else and again in design is the same thing you want to do this Okay, fine. Let's find out how you do that don't you know See the If you think about a problem in design, this is life too Uh, you if you go in this direction is one's way of going but you can go in this direction The real measure is how far out do you go? How far do you take that idea? Now you might take it out here and then say I was wrong I should have gone this direction But what the in in an academic environment, which is an environment in which you can afford to fail The academic environment is an environment you can afford to fail You take any idea and you study it, but you should also at the end position say was I right? Maybe I was not right. Just because I got out here doesn't mean I was right I should have maybe gone in this direction. So it's again a way of thinking Okay, sir I'm mine so What is What do you hope to see in the future of uc and also Is that anything else you want to talk about? I gave the thing no matter the future of uc To me, it's that uc should be proud of being itself Here in Cincinnati Southwest Ohio Serving the population that it serves in Serving the population. I don't mean just that, you know Bringing students and serving the population. We can bring students from all over the world But we do have a responsibility. I think to our community. That's where we live and I wish that we were a little bit more Less less looking to impress other people. Let's let's be true to ourselves And again, that's true. That's what I would hope a student would have is understanding what he or she wants to do and be true to themselves That's what I hope for the universe I'm not certain it's going in that direction politically You know, it's it's things are different. I mean We are a state institution. We had to become the state institution I was involved somewhat when we made the transition Warren Benes was president then It was nice being a municipal school But I I think even the funding may become somewhere now the interesting thing is The funding from the state would used to be much Higher percentage than what we're getting now from the state and yet we seem to be more Dependent on the state in terms of what we do and what we don't do I I don't think you I think you're to be true to your principles And Cincinnati I I've always enjoyed it. It's a great place to live. I've enjoyed Cincinnati Uh as a place to be as a university to teach and it's a place to live It's been a great great time. I would never have thought about it Because I grew up on the east coast, you know, and my wife made me promise two years and I'm very happy We extended All right Anything else? Um No, it's really and also really. Yeah, is there any one you recommend for an interview and why like Just really to recommend foreign interview. Well, my friend Dennis man. I always think of but he's not in town John Hancock who is a colleague who I think is is in town and he's got a very Good sense of things He's still very active in what he's doing. I have walked away from my university Uh role recently Um a lot of people here you have uh because Bruce Getsman is a colleague of mine. He's uh in town. He's in Clifton Here's a person you might come talk to I don't know how Bruce is doing. He's I haven't seen him for a while and Might be that as well so It's so you're talking about faculty from the yeah, basically, yeah Jolj Chatterjee who was dean of the college and he was so planning faculty I don't know who you have on the list. Uh, you know j You're not here. She's not yet Um I have to give it some thought those those names that come up um It'd be interesting also to talk to people who uh, maybe not faculty exact, but some of the Cincinnati people Like if you could david man who's been uh city council, he's been a congressman Uh friend jim tabel who was an interesting character from Cincinnati Who has been a councilman Bar owner lotto garage and he's a very interesting person those are Friends of mine who are Cincinnati based There's another one that just comes to mind and I don't know where she is but yula bingham Yula bingham was from a provost from the medical center And uh, I don't know where she was a brilliant woman A brilliant faculty person If she's be very interesting to get her input Thank you, sir. My pleasure. I enjoy reminiscing. Thank you and you can make sense if you can out of what I've said And um, this is there