 And now I would like to introduce a very special panel discussion here today with the people that we all love. We have here Bidel Gabi, Chris Lam, Steve McIntyne, and Enrico Sini. And on a very, very interesting topic, ignoring negativity. Well done. Thank you. So good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to DebConf in Taiwan. Interesting little fact I was commenting on in a panel discussion the other day. Fun fact that people may not know about me, despite all the crazy traveling I did during my years as a corporate executive. This is actually the first time I've ever visited Taiwan. It's been a lot of fun so far. So thanks to everyone for being here and for having the conference here. This session is, you know, the title may seem a little bit weird. What happened is a few months ago, there was another one of those things that happens fairly routinely in Debian. Somebody posted a message on one of our mailing lists that a few of us who were chatting on IRC immediately reacted to by saying, oh my god, this is going to generate another one of those long, nasty threads that none of us like to read. And Steve and I in particular started sort of trading thoughts back and forth about, you know, how have we figured out how to not get really depressed and still be able to do productive, useful work for the project when that sort of thing happens. And somebody else who was around, it might have been Enrico even, poked us and said, you know, that would make a good DebConf talk. And so that's where this sort of came from. I'm really pleased that Chris and Enrico and Steve have all agreed to join me and try and convey some useful learnings and experiences from our personal participation in Debian and the roles that we've played to try and help everyone else here and everybody who's watching the video stream understand how it is that we can go for a very long time contributing to Debian without going completely nuts. But before we dive into this, out of curiosity, how many of you in the room are at your first DebConf? That's exciting. Thank you for being here. How many of you have been to five or more DebConfs? Ten or more? Fifteen or more? Has anybody else been to 17 in a row? Show off. Yeah, I had to show off. It's one of the few stats about me that's also probably sort of interesting here. Look, to sort of frame things a little bit, what we're going to do is I'm going to provide just a tiny bit of context to sort of explain what we do and don't want to try and cover in this session. And then we're going to sort of pass the mic around and each of these fine individuals will convey some wisdom or thoughts in this topic area. And then after we've had a chance to do that, assuming there's still time available, which I think there will be, we'll be happy to field questions and we'll see if we can't help in some way to make it possible for all of us to be more productive and happier contributors to Debian. So first of all, I want to make it clear that this session is not about harassment. When we talk about ignoring negativity, we are absolutely not talking about tolerating actual harassment of anybody in the project. That's unreasonable and we would never go there. There are an awful lot of actions and behaviors by individuals in the project that are frustrating or irritating to other people, but don't really rise to the level of something that would be appropriate to consider harassment. And yet, some of those things can be really depressing. So what this session is about is trying to help convey things that we think we've learned about how you can be a long-term productive contributor to a project like this where all of us who are here are intensely passionate about what we're doing. And that passion causes us to often be very outspoken and to have very strongly held opinions. And so if you're going to try and operate in this sort of environment, you have to figure out how to feel good about what it is that you're doing and the contributions you're making to the project, even if not everything going on around you, is something that makes you feel good. And in fact, there may be things happening elsewhere in the project in any given moment that make you feel really bad. And I hope in the process that part of what comes out is that some of you at least recognize things that you've done in the past or you've seen other people do that unintentionally probably help to create a less positive, potentially more negative environment for other people around you who are trying to contribute to the project. And hopefully that sort of dose of self-awareness makes it possible for all of us to focus more of our contributions in the project on sort of being excellent to each other and making this a better environment for everybody and not bringing more negative energy into the space. So with that, I'm going to hand off which one of you guys would like to... Chris? Please. One of you guys? Who would like to go first? Yeah. Sure. Okay. Enrico? Hi. Yeah. I guess one thought I had to start a conversation is that often it happens that at work if you're not on top of things and you stop paying attention to what other people are doing, chances are that they'll do something stupid, at least in some work environments. Whereas in Debian, if you don't pay attention to what other people are doing and you're not on top of things, chances are other people will do something smart. But if I... Applying the same thing at work where maybe one is like in charge of technical things and so on, in Debian, kind of that sense of responsibility turns into a compulsion of control, which really doesn't help because the project is way too big. So there was a...in a recent flame war, somebody pointed out, I can't...like this thing... I can't...by being a Debian developer, I don't want to be associated with this thing. And I thought, well, yeah, I don't want to be associated with my sequel. But I'm still locating a Debian developer, even if Debian ships my sequel, that breaks UTF-8. I mean, seriously, people. But I mean, it's fine. I'm only responsible for the things I maintain. And that's where my reputation goes. And for the rest of Debian, I let go and I leave happy. But if somebody feels responsible for all of Debian, then responsibility with great powers come great responsibilities, with great responsibilities comes great control-freakness. And then everybody has to have an opinion on everything. And the project is not sustainable. So I guess quite an important thing is to let go when there are things that I don't understand. I'm quite happy that way, actually. There's so many things I don't understand in Debian, it's amazing. How can it boot on this thing? I mean, congratulations to whoever did that. It's probably you. Maybe? Yeah, I mean, yeah. So the thing I found in the many years I've been involved in Debian that, carrying on from under ECO slightly, is trying to keep up with it all. It's the fire hose thing, again, that you hear people talk about, but worse. Back 15 years ago, I remember trying to read most of the mailing lists. I wasn't necessarily following. I wasn't replying to most of it. But I wanted to see what was going on. Debian was amazing and so diverse and so much good stuff was going on. And then I realized I was running out of time to sleep. And that didn't do any good for me either. It meant I wasn't actually doing the things I was trying to work on. But wow, wasn't it a great place to be? So Debian can be such an amazing project to be part of, because there are so many really, really intelligent white people doing amazing things every day. And yet it can also be one of the most frustrating things or the most frustrating places to be when you think that, oh, I'm holding people up. Or there are things I'm not doing that I should be doing and oh, I feel bad. My own involvement has been very cyclical over the years. There were times when it's on and up, and I can be spending, I'll be honest. Of course, I can talk about this honestly because I don't work with those people anymore. But I spent more time doing Debian work than doing paid work for a number of the years I've been around. And I felt amazing for it. I felt really, really rewarded. It's been great fun. There's been lots of achievements. Sometimes there are days when I'm just not in the mood. I can't cope with it. I've got other things to do. Family matters come up. I'm just generally just feeling grouchy. Those are the days when it's much harder. Those are the days when it is an important thing to recognize that I'm not necessarily going to achieve much directly. Don't get down about it. Move on. Take the day off. Take a week off, a month off. It's fine. The world will move on. The world will carry on. The only thing that really, and I've said this a number of times to lots of people over the years, is be prepared to back away. Be prepared to be honest. The worst one is when you beat yourself up because you can't admit to yourself you feel ashamed to admit that you're struggling. There are lots of people around. People will pick up after you. People will help. People will understand. After all, we're all human. Thanks, Steve. Just to scroll back to your outline of what this talk isn't about, it reminds me a lot of a categorization of different types of conversation in terms of you have agreeable conversation, perhaps like the one we're having now, and then you have unacceptable tone of conversation, which, again, is not within the remit. And then there's the disagreeable, which is the hard category, because the agreeable is easy, because whatever it is. And the unacceptable is just unacceptable, and harassment would obviously come underneath that. And it is this middle category of... So I thought that was quite a good... I read that first. It was quite a good framing for what, for putting conversations into, and for when you are looking at a conversation, being able to categorize it like such can be quite useful. I certainly don't have any... I certainly don't have the experience in terms of time, as these fine gentlemen, with Debian and experiencing negativity there. But perhaps some of it has been a bit more as DPL anyway has come a bit more privately than on the mailing lists. And that's underlined how audience matters. So that speaks to words like face and respect and things like that. Because a nasty male sent privately does different things and pushes different buttons than one sent publicly. I'm not going to say one is worse than the other, because you could probably imagine that one, you know, would make it up or exaggerating for a fact, but slandering you publicly is one thing. But one that is quite nasty and sent to you directly, it's clearly designed to needle you directly, is also unpleasant in its own way. But I have no answers here. I mean, keeping perspective has been quite important. And educating myself about human brain problems and fail-tease, whatever they're called, for the term. But knowing that, for example, if you receive 100 bits of positive feedback, you wish, but say one did receive 100 bits of positive feedback in Debian and then got one negative one, guess which you're going to try and fall asleep to whilst thinking about it's going to be the negative one. And it's going to be in your head all day whilst in the shower and you're going to be... Yeah, and there's a whole class of these just sort of foibles, that's the word. Foibles in our sort of fallen homo sapien post-lapsarian brains that mean that you do focus on all these negative things. Also not to ruminate on them, and as Sledge already said, sometimes just step away for that five minutes, five hours, five days, five weeks. That is absolutely fine. That actually sort of ties in well to one of the things I wanted to talk about, which is that our primary means of communicating with each other in the Debian project is through email. I mean, we use other things too, IRC and so forth, and certainly face-to-face communications at events like Debcon. But because so much of our communication with each other is via email, it's very easy for people to sort of lose track of the way email really ought to work. And what I mean by that is I've always thought that the email process was meant to be read, contemplate, then write. And unfortunately, when emotions start to crank up, people rush through that first stage, skip over the second one entirely, and spend most of the time in the third. And when that happens, it's really, really easy for the energy being applied positively or negatively to a discussion to escalate really rapidly. And I've discovered myself that if I'm really irritated and there's something I really feel compelled to say, that there's immense value in dumping it all out of my brain into a buffer, you know, edit buffer or something, and then not hitting send, but going away and doing something completely different for a while, as you say, detaching a bit. And then come back and see whether I still feel as passionately about that. Sometimes I really do, but I realize that I could take about three-quarters of the words out of the message and still convey the one thing that I really believe that would be a useful addition to the conversation. And if you're willing and able to take the time to do that, all of a sudden, you know, it becomes much easier to do these things we talk about sometimes of trying to keep the conversation focused on the actual technical content instead of the personalities of the people involved and things like that. And this goes a really long way towards making it easier to feel good about contributing to the project. I also thought about a couple of other things. Because the Debian project is really all about this notion that we've made common cause to create a free operating system, if you are working to make some sort of improvement or contribution to the operating system, the most frustrating thing that can happen sometimes is when there's something that sort of blocks your ability to make progress. And sometimes, as Steve said, that's, you know, you've just got other things going on in your life and you lose enthusiasm for a while. That's totally okay. And when that happens, you ought to back away. But it's really good if you let other people around you in the project know that you're doing that. I sometimes chuckle at the number of random vacation messages that show up on places like Debian Private. And it's kind of like, why do I care that that person's going to have a nice vacation on the south of France or something? But the flip side of that is that if you do let the other people that you work with in the project know when stuff is going on in your life so that they're not just getting frustrated and wondering why you're not responding or they feel empowered to go do something in your absence, then that can help keep from sort of blocking people's ability to do things. I also observed last year in the session where I talked about some of the history of the project at the Deb Contra in Montreal that in the early days of this project, this concept of ownership of packages was not quite as ingrained as it is today. In fact, it wasn't until at least a year, a year and a half after I joined Debian that the whole notion that there was an assigned responsible individual for a given package got coded into our bug tracking and packaging systems. And that causes me sometimes to think about what's going on when I see people arguing in a thread in the bug tracking system about yes, I'll do this, no, I won't. And it particularly causes me to think when somebody has disappeared for a while and other people have something that's blocking a transition or whatever that they'd really like to get taken care of and they're really concerned about doing a non-maintainer upload. And the whole reason we have processes to do things like that is to be able to tolerate this situation where not everybody who's a passionate volunteer can be around seven days a week, 24 hours a day to make progress on things. So I don't know if any of those really particularly help. I have to also echo Steve's observation that about 15 years ago, specifically the year that I was Debian project leader, I did subscribe to at the time all 89 of Debian's mailing lists and I read every message and every one of them every day. And I have to admit that there were days when that left me with absolutely zero energy to do anything productive for the project. And so like many people, I have completely ratcheted down how many such things I try to pay attention to on an average day. But I'm very, very quick when somebody makes a reference in an IRC channel or drops me an email asking my opinion about something to dive in and go read, you know, even the long nasty email threads because sometimes, you know, it's necessary to understand what's going on and be able to help and make progress. But I have discovered that if I managed to sort of put the blinders on a little bit and think about the thing that I actually want to get done today and sometimes to actually sit down and fix the bug before I go dive in and read a bunch of mailing list traffic, you'd be surprised how much more productive work you can get done, you know, before the whole craziness sets in. Yeah, when you mentioned the mails and reviewing and so on, you reminded me of a suggestion Mako gave me that was when you write a mail, you write a long explanation for everything and have your point at the bottom and at that point take what you wanted to say from the bottom and put it at the top and then delete everything else. Because... That, by the way, is a really good thing to do also when you're working in big corporations if you're trying to convince your boss of something because they generally can't read more than three lines of an email before they move on to the next thing. Right. And for that, they probably won't have the time because they need to read gazillion. And in a way, that means that your thought process maybe is less interesting or I don't know, but then the thought process kind of hides the point and sometimes I would feel in doing that that I kind of failed to make a convincing argument because I didn't set the sort of... all the discourse that leads to that and it's also that, I think, a bit of a control freakery. I mean, I'm not actually... I don't have the power to control the thoughts of the people reading the emails so in the end it's the point I'm trying to make that may resonate with the thought process I had or somebody else's thought process. But there's something like... when I send an email to a living mailing list I mean, no pressure, right? It's only going to be read by thousands of people and I'll drive by Google forever. So somehow my reputation is linked to it and there's people with extremely high reputations writing in those lists. So yeah, I mean, fine, just click send. But I really am trying to force myself to say I don't know this thing. And it's okay. There's an illusion of perfection because there's so much perfection going on in Debian, like technical... Perfection doesn't exist and Debian is not perfect but there's a lot of technical excellence and extremely knowledgeable people hanging around in Debian. So yeah, it's totally okay to get something wrong. It's totally okay to not know something. It's totally okay to write saying, hey, you changed my mind. You made a good point. That doesn't... It's just like a loss of control. It feels like you're not the smartest person in the room. It feels like people will read that message 10 years later and won't hire you for the job. But actually what it really feels like is that you are a human being who's able to think which is probably something positive for the reputation. But I think there's no narrative for that in Debian. It doesn't happen usually. And so the examples that are set are sort of not leading in that way. But I would totally like to see more of that. Sure. So it's very difficult to see for some people the fact that we produce a technically excellent operating system. Yet if you look behind the scenes, you see all the rubbish that goes on. You see people's mistakes. We air all of our dirty laundry all the time and that can get people down. But fundamentally, and I've made this argument to friends a few times over the years, Debian produces an operating system almost as a by-product. We happen to be an incredibly large family of great people. It's a project about the people first and foremost. If individuals are not cared about, if we don't help each other, support each other, the operating system doesn't happen. This ties in another thing that I've thought about before, which is that I remember being interviewed the year that Linux Conf Australia was first held in Hobart. And at that particular time, I found myself as the chairman of the technical committee, also temporarily serving as the project secretary because of an abandonment of that role. And a reporter interviewed me and he asked a bunch of questions about sort of how are we coping with this huge discussion. There was a GR at the time about whether we could or could not release with binary kernel firmware blobs in the distro. And I sort of spontaneously commented on the fact that I thought you had to be careful to distinguish between the vocal minority and the non-vocal majority in a community as large as Debian. And I've thought about that a bunch of times since because we get sometimes really voluminous threads of discussion, but if you stop and look at it, it's often the case that it's a really small percentage of the people in the project that are contributing to any one of these particular discussions. And that makes perfect sense because we cover so much technical landscape at this point that it would be highly unlikely that any of us had relevant opinions on all of it all the time. But of course we'll profess those opinions. Yeah, and I think the point that I'm trying to make is sometimes if you sort of wake up and go read a thread or two on DeVal and you sort of go, oh my God, everybody's going crazy, you have to stop and remember that it's like everybody who thought it was important to spend their personal time today adding negative energy to that particular thread may have gone crazy. But that says nothing about the 90-some percent of the rest of the project that we're quietly working on fixing something and uploading a new version of a package while that discussion was going on. And that doesn't necessarily provide any sort of suggestion about how to make the discussions cleaner or easier or more fun to read. But I've certainly personally found it invigorating to realize that, oh, okay, yeah, a quick check on IRC of a few people whose opinions I respect and I realize that, oh, we haven't all gone insane all at once. There's just this voluminous thread going on and at some point I'll decide if I'm willing to choke that whole thing down and see if there's something I can add to the discussion. But in the meantime, I'm going to go upload GZIP 1.9 because I just realized how long it's been that it's out and I hadn't uploaded it. In other words, I think it's really important sometimes to realize how many people actually are sort of around the project doing good stuff every day even when we're sort of in the middle of some of our nastiest discussions. There is slightly tyranny of the spare time as well involved in that, in that if you do have the time to contribute to one of those long lists multiple times, then your voice, your opinions are sort of somehow weighted. Amplified. Amplified weighted a little bit more. I did like Enrico's remark about not always pretending that you know everything and things like that. And there are a number of I think perhaps slightly newer areas of Debian where not knowing everything is just considered absolutely fine. For example explicitly the Debian TIL IRC room is just full of people saying I didn't know this and it's even in the topic saying it says there's absolutely no judgment someone coming in saying I didn't know Jesus existed and it doesn't matter and it's great. It's not only great that they've now learned that probably ten other people on the channel have now learned that Jesus exists and they didn't want to say before perhaps but also it just moves the needle in that area of just like it's fine to not know something or to not have this perfection, this this drive for this outside image or having that kind of thing like that. Yeah, so do you want to add something else Enrico? Debian TIL is a great place to be joined, seriously. So today I learned there was a Debian TIL That's your first contribution. TIL means today I learned about ignoring negativity so somebody is making a point in a thread with a mail that is extremely offensive and it takes a lot of strength to throw away the extremely offensive bit and just get to the point or occasionally some people are applying into a thread just being offensive because they think it's fun and they are people that are like that and I'm sorry for them they're having a really bad life but we have a bunch and sometimes they contribute to threads so there's two things in my mind when I follow a thread one is I'm interested in the technical aspect of it and the other is there's some behavior that I consider unacceptable and it may make sense to stick to the technical aspect which means ignoring a lot of the red flags that are going up in my head or not taking offense or realizing that the other person is childish and letting that go and maybe one day they'll grow up but it's also costs and ignoring negativity doesn't make negativity go away the space is still not a safe and pleasant space to work on but that is an orthogonal issue so I can bring on the technical conversation and drop the troll drop the nasty remark drop somebody who's trying to be abusive in a way or another and stick to the main point and then take deal with the negative part in some other way if somebody made you uncomfortable point it out to anti-arrestment talk about it to a friend go on an IRC channel friends and say is it just me or that thing was not acceptable there's other ways of dealing with the negative part of a conversation and unfortunately dealing with them both in the reply doesn't help because it the threat doesn't continue the threat doesn't continue in a constructive technical way and it doesn't solve the social issue because that person suddenly got all the energy they were trying to get all the attention they were trying to get so separate two things keep to the technical thing if the technical thing is still interesting drop the threat if the technical thing is not interesting or if there's no technical thing anymore deal with the discomfort that has been caused by people in some other way anti-arrestment is the first thing that comes on top of my mind several people may leader which is the full back for things it would make sense to set something up that because negativity is not harassment but pointing out that something is made me uncomfortable is something that would be nice to be able to do and I do it with groups of friends because I have friends people who don't we need a full back we can talk about that but yeah separate the two things and both things are worth be dealt with but this is currently we are talking about how to interact constructively in a space that is not safe how to make that space safe is something desirable but for another time Enrico can I ask your advice a bit more detail on say when you do look at the thread and analyze it a bit more objectively and upon doing that and you remove all the emotional bits there is no technical thing left you said very quickly and perhaps too easily oh you can just ignore the thread in a sense but you probably know from experience you or brain can't ignore the thread right what do you do I mean let's say I won't write on it ignore in that sense not write on it and then maybe talk with people in private for example is a thing that I would do so cool it's like there's a nasty car accident down in front of the window of your house and there's already like people that are sort of dealing with it but there's this morbid thing of looking at what how it evolves sometimes there's threads that are a bit like that that can it get any worse oh wow it did congratulations I guess irony also works I don't know but sometimes it's emotionally tough and talking with someone definitely not being alone is 0.1 on anything and if we are not able in that way to give infrastructure so that people are not alone it's something that needs improvement I have to say I was rather impressed in Saturday's presentation and discussion by minister Tang about some of the tools that are being used for collaboration and developing consensus here in Taiwan and in particular the missed time I'm sorry yes the problem with knowing people for a really long time or knowing other people for a really long time the situation is the thing that I took out of that that was really interesting is this notion of a mechanism for sort of voting support or lack of support for an assertion without an ability to reply to the assertion directly if you didn't like that assertion go make some other assertion and over time we build the cluster of assertions that the majority of people seem to agree to I thought that concept was really intriguing and I wondered immediately is there some way that we could apply that you know sort of approach and technology and Debbie and I will freely admit that that's totally beyond sort of my abilities I don't do that kind of web software and so forth but I looked at it and I went wow that's a cool idea switch to top quoting before the argument starts so one of the things about ignoring negativity is also there is a responsibility on you to not spread negativity so that is the you're in a technical thread there is something offensive please if you can hold back from responding to it then that doesn't then spread that negativity and potentially the negativity in your response to even more people it then doesn't take up more time of more other people by all means go off and find your private space your space with a small number of friends and go and rant further but that is not then spreading it back to everybody it's not making the problem worse obviously it's hard we've all had the point where you've got to respond to oh my god this person is an idiot I've got to tell them they're an idiot but fundamentally that doesn't help anybody in the long run explaining to people in a less charged way how you might disagree with their opinion and this might be a better way forward is great but diving in the ballooning threads that we get with flames we've all seen those fundamentally very little actually positive comes out so if you can't say something positive I know it's a cliche if you can't say something good don't say anything but there is a huge value to that especially when the continuing conversation is only spiralling downwards Marshall Rosenberg who's inventor of nonviolent communication makes an example of you go to someone and say you're an idiot and it's quite unlikely that they'll go thank you sir I realize the error of my way I'm glad you pointed it out to me yeah that just puts people in a defensive it is true that when you finally get through my thick brain something that I've been getting wrong for a long time my usual responses oh yeah I'm an idiot so whatever we all have our ways of responding to things one thing that can definitely help is to be that person that can be complained at be the person that someone can come to and rant and gripe at and understand where they're coming from when they are complaining as in don't necessarily literally address their complaints or jump on the thread for them because that's not really what they need right now exactly yeah and just to say I see where you're coming from and you perhaps don't know the context and things like that so just being there for other people can be one definite concrete thing you can do I've certainly also had the experience when some of these things were going on and somebody did come to me and say hey do you know this person what the heck is this all about should I be really concerned about this one of the roles that I've been very conscious of playing sometimes is helping to make a connection I don't actually know that person but I know somebody that probably knows then maybe you want to go talk to them instead and sometimes it's been interesting how often something really strange happened particularly when somebody all of a sudden I found out later that it's because something really unfortunate or horrific had happened in their life outside of Debian and we don't expect everybody to be open and sharing about all the things going on in their lives all the time that's completely unreasonable in this kind of a project but it kind of goes back to the thing we were talking about earlier if you feel the need to pull away a little bit from time to time helping other people who are your friends or colleagues in the project whether that's happening can sometimes really defuse these sort of frustrating moments sure can I there is a psychological state called arousal that is not what's usually used for the word arousal and it's there's a Wikipedia page which is kind of interesting it's maybe the opposite of boredom according to a graph in here like you're very much the opposite of bored you're like there and like adrenaline pumping sort of life or death situation like I really need to act no matter what and in that case it's like tunnel vision lose the context it's kind of important to recognize when that is going on and realize that tunnel vision is happening you're losing context and wind down for that so in that situation it really is okay to write down a lot of things but not send because you are missing something even just the tone or what the other person really wanted to say because you got triggered by the way the other person was saying something so recognize that your breathing faster, your heartbeat is faster you are in a hurry, your reputation depends on it all this is a specific psychological state that is generally unhelpful unless you need to run away from tigers which is not something we do generally in modern society but the the wiring is still there so write down all you have in mind because you are extremely productive at that point but maybe not on the point and then wind down I work from home I go for all the laundry it's fantastic and then go back to what you've written realize you've been an idiot but there were some points that could be salvaged throw it away rewrite it in a productive way it's very rare that you ever need to send that email right now how does that ever matter it will wait until tomorrow when you're calmer when you're clearer when you can actually make a reasonable point there's a really tough flame going on that tomorrow there's 30 more males that rise your arousal in that case I tend to postpone until people stopped writing it's a good time to find something other than Debbie to work on for a few days in my personal experience for all of us it's going to be different we all have different amounts of tolerance for noise in our lives, things that are going on around us that aren't really making us happy or providing that positive feedback that causes us to be encouraged to want to keep engaged in the things that we're working on or the people that we're working with but I suspect it's obvious to all of you and everyone who watches the video of this in the future that none of us are highly qualified experts in some of these areas but I do hope that our attempt to convey some of our experiences and some of the things that we've learned as best practices for personally coping with some of these things and helping our friends and colleagues in the project be able to be positive and productive and engaged has been helpful or useful to all of you with that we're essentially out of time and so I think rather than trying to open up for questions in the last less than a minute I'll just thank you all very much for your attendance and for your attention this afternoon and we'll look forward to talking to all of you in the hallways through the rest of the week. Thanks much.