 Who better to talk about the intricacies and the behind-the-scenes stuff of baseball? I think this guy knows more baseball than anybody I've ever met in my life. Maybe Billy Martin might have known more, but he learned from Billy anyway, and that's Buck Showalter, and thank you for joining us, Buck. How you doing? Good. I've been sitting here on the hold listening to Ageless Mel advertise. Doesn't apply to you at all, right? Doesn't apply to you, Buck. You're fine. I'll never tell you. Alright, so here's the question. How prevalent is sign-stealing, Buck? And forget about the illegal kind, but sign-stealing from good baseball people from the dugout. Is it a big part of the game? Well, first of all, but probably 80% of it is paranoia, and that's kind of what you're hard to do. You know, you've heard me say before, Mike, I'm not paranoia, I'm just a lurk. You know, and well, the first thing you do when you start a game, at least the managers I grew up with, is you check out the first base coach, the third base coach, you're listening for sounds out of the dugout. There's about four or five checkpoints you make to make sure you watch the body language of people on the bench, if they're on the top step talking about it. It's just a way to tell if your guy's tipping pitches or your catcher's setting up too early or... But, you know, this is a different level. So, that's always been a part of it. You know, you've got teams that have been together a long time, which doesn't happen much anymore. You know, Houston's been together quite a while. Remember the old Milwaukee Brewers would get, Niren Yalt and Molitor, Cecil Cooper, Simmons. Those guys were together forever, Gorman Thomas, and everybody knew they were doing it, but you did something to counteract it. I mean, you remember when Joe got upset about my third base coach in Baltimore one night, he thought Bobby was giving signs, which he wasn't. So, yeah, that part of it's always been something that you have to be aware of as part of your job description, but this is a different level. Now, even at that different level, Buck, how much responsibility does the opposition have to figure it out and change it? Like Farqua in that video that was sent out when the White Sox... Good point. Good point. You know, they picked it up, they changed the sign, and they were able to strike out the batter. So, at what level does it's a fool on you to, hey, I got to make the adjustments? Exactly. It's part of your job description, but it's also what you do from the first inning. Like, you know, people used to talk about Toronto doing stuff, but what they did, they worked real hard. First of all, there's no secrets in baseball. People are changing teams all the time. They're always sharing information. They don't, you know, pitchers don't want to get beat by teams. So, you got to, you know, just because someone's being interviewed doesn't mean they're guilty, whether it's AJ or Carlos or Alex. So, let's fall off there. You know, I did interview them, too. But I think one of the things you look for, like, sometimes, who would go two innings in Toronto, and they wouldn't be off balance on a single off-speed pitch. That's where your antennas go up and your flag goes up, especially a fastball tang-up guy. That's where even that tape that's going around, you know, they call it one of those pitches of change-up, which was a breaking ball, but, you know, the pitchers figured it out. When you know you have an above average tang-up, can you imagine how long you think Greg Maddox would go in a game before he figured something was up if they weren't, you know, fooled at all by his change-up? You know, it would take him maybe two or three hitters because great pitchers and good managers and pitching coaches make a living out of reading people's swings. So, when you see guys for three innings not be off balance or take a bad swing at something off speed, your antennas go up. Well, this whole thing is right now focused on the 2017 Astros. You were the manager of the Orioles in 2017, so you faced them at least six times that year. Did you have suspicions that something was rotten there? I don't know about rotten, Mike. We had something with the lights, you know, they changed the lights there, and we were striking out a lot more than we normally do, and we were more concerned somewhat with the lighting. I remember that because the LED lighting was in their clubhouse, but it wasn't in the busy club, and we're always paranoid, okay? And half of it, you know, really, you got to be careful about taking it too far, but, you know, when you go into a ballpark, that's part of your advanced scouting thing, and you believe me, people share information, you know, you have relationships with other managers, people in the American League West want to give you information when you go in because they want those teams beaten, so you're always sharing that type of stuff, but there's ways around it. You know, everybody's using multiple signs in Houston now when you go in there. We did it in Toronto. I told the story on the air yesterday, Bob, and I'm sure you remember this. George Steinberg called down the loop in Ella and said, the guy on the mound is cheating, I want you to go out and have him checked, and Lou said we can't do that, and George said why, and Lou said because our guy's cheating too. So how many teams around baseball right now are very, very nervous because they're doing similar things? I wouldn't think electronically they're confirmed, but I understand a lot of this is from the electronic, analytical, whatever, because people in there are seeing this. It's such a wide-ranging problem, like from the standpoint of there's an inconsistency about where the video rooms are, the replay room. This is going to drive another possible stake into the manager should do everything spontaneously about replays, because you're talking to a guy sometimes within shouting distance that's looking at the play. Right. What really what you've got to find out is who okayed and who put supposedly this feed, because everybody's got a center field feed in their TV broadcast, but who's putting this feed directly into the hallway, so to speak, because that's a real quick turnaround. I mean you get stuff from catcher setting up too fast, that's something Sanchez has done a great job, they've done a nice job in here, because we initially started catching, he would spread on the break-in ball and all speed pitches if you could get it out there quick enough, but when they shake off and they're still getting the pitch, that's when I'm going cool. That's not good. But you've said on occasion during this interview that this would be taking it too far, this is beyond the gamesmanship and the hard work to bring in electronics, so what can happen? What should happen then? What should the discipline be in your mind? Well, that's another question. For me personally, if you find them guilty, you've got to hurt them in the W column for 2020. How do you do that? Well, that's the question. I'm open to your suggestions. I wouldn't do that. I think things aren't going to do it. Suspending Hinge for a year? Does that do it? Because then Joe Espada moves up to be the manager. Yeah, let's be careful about throwing him out of the bus right away. Let's let the facts play out a little bit. AJ, my dealings with him seem to be a pre-ethical guy, and it sometimes gets a little embarrassed by some of the stuff that might go on over there sometimes. But I think how do you hurt them, Mike, without hurting your fan base? I do at SMU. When they're football program or something. But what do you do? I know one thing. If I'm Atlanta Braves, I'm going, okay, let me see what you're going to do. Because they basically handle them the toughest penalties ever. They want to make an example of them in the international market. I'm a New York Yankees, and I just got beat by these in the playoffs. I'm watching real closely. Because the draft picks doesn't really do it. That might be fine. International signing and stuff. But for me, you've got to take away their chance of having success in 2020, in a lot of ways. You've got to think about that, because that's the way you really get everybody's attention. Yeah, but I'm trying to think along with you, Buck. I don't know how you do that. I mean, you can't make a player go away. You can't turn players into free agents. I don't know how you do it. And also, do you think you should really be thinking about how fair you are to the fans at Houston? If you do something now, and suddenly they know they can't win in 2020, is that fair punishment? Well, we have always looked at that. Sorry, there's always that collateral damage. I can't make my punishment lighter because there might be guilt by association or collateral damage to it. If the fans are upset, Buck, don't blame Major League Baseball. Blame the Astros for doing it in the first place. So what do they do in the NCAA football or basketball if they want to call it cheating? They'll take away their wins. They'll take away their scholarships. Or they're on probation and they can't win a championship. Can Major League Baseball... Sorry, for the Astros, for the next three years, you can't sign a free agent. Or for the next two years, you can't sign a free agent. That won't hurt him that much. Now, this just came out, Buck. Trevor Plou, formerly of the Twins, said that during the World Series, it was so loud you couldn't hear the trash can. He said a reliable source told him the Astros had somebody watching a live feed and relaying the pitch calls via earpiece to the bullpen catcher. Hands up on the fence for a fat, small hands down for off speed. Does that sound like it's doable in real time? Yes, it is doable. Yeah, because if you want... That's a quick transfer. Michael, you're talking about electronic. You're talking about a quick transfer. And let's keep in mind the pace that people pitch at. By the time you get a sign, by the time you deliver a pitch, what is it, 30 minutes? There's a long lag there, okay? And that's another reason why I should... Maybe this is how we'll get pitchers to pitch faster. Hey, if I pitch fast... Mike, one time in 89, we were playing in the Phillies and I'll play off our regular season game in Albany. And their manager was giving pitches by signs directly to the catcher, Ozzie Virgil Jr., I think, Jason Grimsley might have been in the picture. And I'm watching for him and I go, my gosh, you know, nose was a change-up, ear fastballing in, other ear fastball away, breaking ball was a hat. So, you know, we had a metal pole in the middle. We had a lead bat. My pitching coach would... He would bang the pole every time there was something soft coming. And we were worrying about him. Our next day, Jason said, he's like, they knew everything was coming. Well, we did. Now, is that cheating? Or is that just noticing their manager giving pitches directly to the catcher? I don't think that's cheating. And when you brought up the thing that Joe was upset with Bobby, right? I don't know, why would he be upset? He wasn't doing anything. He was picking it up from the field. Well, Mike, well, exactly. You know, changing. If your catcher's not tucking the signs of... Right. You know, I've done a big league where the first base coach gave the pitches to the right-hand hitter and the third base coach gave him to the left-hand hitter. You know, you're... And it's very difficult to watch. You know, Joe's watching to see if some guy's... That's one of the things you do early in the ballgame. Fortunately for us, you know, lucky for Joe, we weren't. You know, Bobby's not going to... How's Bobby going to take that for himself there? But I understand it's paranoia, but we weren't guilty. But even if you were guilty, you were guilty of... You weren't guilty of a crime. I mean, anything that's picked up on the field to me is fair game. If a guy's at second base and could see the signs and relay it to the batter, that's not cheating. Right. Mike, that's another problem. You know, you'll see some teams with the first and second or first, second, third put the first baseman right in behind the runner at first to keep him from looking in. And where the guy coming in behind him. It's another thing you do. I always wondered, guys making five or six million dollars a year, why wouldn't you hire your roommate from college to travel around and sit in the center field and it's nothing else, just give a location. But another problem that they're going to expose is, I think, how many times are these TV monitors closely dug out without missing a ballpark? There's one ballpark where, you know, if I just crane my head a little bit to the right, you can see a monitor underneath the cameraman's feet, so to speak. Right. And yeah, there's got to be a better police and all that. I think they should uniformly move all the replay rooms away from the dugouts. Even at Yankee Stadium, the visiting replay booth is right behind the dugout. Also in the home dugout. Well, I don't know. I don't go over there. You don't like cameras down there either way, Mike. Right, right. No, but I mean, but that's legal. I mean, that's legal, though, to put the room right there. Right. But it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. It should be in a uniform place, X number of feet away from the dugout. I mean, Mike, pan the dugout sometimes during a game between innings. How many people are in there? Four. Right. Where are they, Mike? Where are they? They're probably in the video room. Yeah. They're either looking at their last at bat or up somewhere else. You really want to call some striping baseball and make everybody stand a dugout between innings. There's the other dilemma, Buck, because there's a report, and I understand it's just a report, but let's just say for sake of argument, we find out that there are people involved in the 27 Astro controversy that aren't there anymore. So how do they get punished? There's one report that Beltran and Cora were involved in this. Well, one's with the Red Sox, one's with the Mets. I mean, so you want to hurt the Astros for sure, but do they get away scot-free? And is it fair to punish them when it's the Mets and the Red Sox that would suffer the punishment? Well, you know, that's, well, you hurt them, you know. Well, that goes back to the fan point, right? Well, it's also, you know, you do your homework and everything. But let's be careful about, or as Carlos or Alex or even Adrian, I'm going to say it again because every team has some, well, every good team has someone, including our good Baltimore teams, that was very good at picking up pitches from a pitcher. You know, they might flare their hat. I mean, they're a glove on a change-up. They might do this. They might do that. You know, I had wanted to in Baltimore as good as you want to see. Who are they? I'm not telling you that. You know, I might go, I might go good, but they're worth having around just, and you can see the body language. You watch other dugouts. You can tell who that guy is. You know, they're studying left and right, and they, you know, they can't, they can't wait to tell somebody. And that's what pitching coaches do. A lot of them, they keep an eye on their own pitcher to make sure they're not doing that. If you were the Yankees that got eliminated by this Astro team in 17 and 19, would you feel that you got robbed? Not yet. But if it found out to be true, how would you feel? I ain't too happy. But I want to make sure that before I start voicing my unhappiness, I want to make sure that I'm not guilty in some form or fashion. At some point, you sit down. And I'll tell you, Mike, it's hard for me to imagine that anybody in that clubhouse for the most part in the front office doesn't have some idea. I mean, I'm not naive. You're not either. I'm here with people seven days a week for almost eight months. You know, a lot of things. There's not many secrets down there. First of all, nobody keep a secret baseball. You know that. Are you surprised that Mike Fires came out and put his name to this? No, I think, really, you might see more and more because people, you know, it costs, it costs people their jobs. Yeah. Whether it be a coach or a manager sometime, I look at, I've had a couple of coaches call me, you know, and, you know, I was working so hard with this pitcher now and I don't know why he couldn't get anybody out or something. You know, believe me, it's a big branch. You think your job's tough, Mike, some days. How about the commissioner right now? I said he probably thinks I need this on my plate. I mean, the whole world is watching this because the discipline in football with the Patriots, it didn't even hurt them. Nothing. Not a bit. Yeah. But this one, you know, the question I beg to, you know, I'd love to be here with your listeners like what is the punishment? You know what? It's a tough, that's the toughest thing for me to come up with because I just think somehow you got to hurt their ability to, in the W column. If that's the case, if they're guilty. Hold on. Your former player Kevin Galsman came out today and said, you know what, this is a big deal. And he said there are pitchers that have lost their major league career and got sent down because they got hit hard in Houston. He said this is a big deal. That's my point. And Gals has tried to try to garner a good breaking ball, but he's basically a two-pitch guy. That's all he gets off of a split. And when you get that 50-50 guy, like a lot of relief pitchers are, and let's face it, you know, these guys can turn around a bullet in a big league. So if you're just the heck with the velocity, you know, it's not the velocity. It's the pitch. You're always looking for that 10 to 15 mile an hour difference between the velocity of your pitches. And that's an eternity. When you see guys taking changeups and not even budging, you know, watch a game sometime and tell me where your red flag goes up. Now, there's a difference between educated guessing. You know, if Maddox is throwing 60% changeups, at some point you're going to look changeup. The problem is, is our speed is so good. Heck, we, one night we do every pitch Randy Johnson was throwing. He shut us out. Okay? That's just, you know, it happens sometimes. So, Buck, let me ask you. Can you, can you point out where the line would be that if you cross it, it's something really messed up versus being gamesmanship. What would you have to hear about this where you go, okay, this is a real serious problem? Well, what I'm hearing right now. The electronic part of, got it. Well, let's face it, look at the people that are, everyone is trying to bring something in a clubhouse, whether it be someone that didn't, you know, is very analytically driven, sabrametrically driven, electronically driven, video driven, but really can't bring something out. So, they're always looking for something to separate themselves. And quite frankly, it's a lazy way to do work. You know, they're trying to take the price, place of a lot of veteran scouts and I call them boots on the ground people. This is what guys used to tell you when they'd go sit on a team for three days, this thing they used to have called advanced scouts. So, you know, this is kind of a cheaper, I don't want to say lazier, but I'll say kind of, you know, it's, some of what's, our whole game is kind of a, for me, I'm getting a lot of calls from people about this is kind of an example, kind of what's going on in our game all together. We're talking with Buck Schall here on the Michael K. Schall. Buck, here I think could be an issue too, I want to run this by you. The game essentially is run now by people that didn't play the game. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, Ivy League guys that are geniuses and they don't, I think they are there. Not everybody, not everybody went to Ivy League or a genius. Some real dummies, common sense in their trust. But my, that's a good point. My point is that they don't know the unwritten rules. They don't know the right from the wrong. Yeah, I mean, I know what the commissioner said, but they're looking for an edge in any kind of, even if it moves the needle a tenth. And, you know, old baseball guys would know this is not the right thing to do. I don't know if the guys from Cornell and from Harvard really care about that. They just want to get an edge. Does that make sense? When they do the interview, they should have an ethics class talk. You know, in today's game, Mike, if they don't have an app for what's right and what's wrong, they may not be able to understand it. That's for who wills said. Well, how are you doing? I'm doing great. I'm doing great. All right, yeah. Worried about Alabama getting into Final Four. Now they shouldn't, they lost. Excuse me? They lost, they lost. At home, too. Ellis used to be pretty good. Yeah, they are. A lot of states, real, usually I'm kind of down with big 10. A lot of states are real, Bill. Is Taggable Lowe really a legit NFL quarterback, you think? You know what? I got to tell you, I think he's one of those, when he's healthy, he's one of those accurate passers, maybe in college football history. Watch how many times he hits guys on a dead run. But, man, I tell you, being able to project, it's like projecting a high school player to play in a big league. Project college guys into the NFL. I tell you one thing, the quarterback of LSU has got pro quarterback written all over him, buddy. If you had to do it all over again, you could push a button. Would you rather be a college football coach or a baseball manager? Yes. And one of them you would have never met Michael K. It's very easy from the ivory power, given your opinion about something you've never done, but, you know, given the chance to be around some coast parcells and some of the great coaches, it's fun to watch. Well, you love college football. You love it. I like the... You know, it brings back memories of my dad. I hit up early in the morning, and we got to drive to Tesco, LSU, park a mile from there, so we didn't have to pay for parking. Some guy with Pingerton security would let us in and we'd sit in the faculty section because they're the only people that would go to the game. And I'd watch Coach Bryant. Joe Namas to all those guys. Did you develop any fondness for the Ravens and Baltimore? Of course. Coach Harbaugh and I got to be pretty close. He's special. I love the way he's changed that salt process with the Marjacks and a lot of people. He could have been taken. If he could stay healthy, he's got a certain way of slithering around that stays away from those hits like a lot of other run-pass quarterbacks. I love Coach Harbaugh. He doesn't go to some of his practices. You know, one day, he wanted me to deliver the message to the team and I was all excited. I walked out there and I started talking. I said, Coach, who y'all playing this week because of the Patriots? I said, thanks a lot, Coach. I appreciate it. You know, it's pretty good. Valkwy, thank you for coming on. That's really cool. What do you think? Absolutely. You are tremendous. The only thing that you do better is managing. I want to hear the punishment. I want to hear what the fans think. What's the proper punishment? When you hang up with us, Buck, you should go stream right now on the ESPN app. You can listen to what everyone has to say. Wait, did you just say an app? Appetizer. Grab it. That's why you can't accuse Buck of ever cheating. He doesn't even know how to download an app. I'm still trying to get over the ageless man thing. You know what? We'll give you all the details on that. Yeah. All right, Mike, you text me, Mike. I figure out how to do this texting thing. Let me know what everybody says. That's a great idea. Thanks, Buck. Take care.