 Thanks so much for being here. There's looks like there's a couple people who are new to brain club. So hi, I'm Mel Hauser. I use she they pronouns and I'm executive director here at all brands belong. And this is brain club. What I will do is share screen and orient you more conversation. Okay, so this is our second ever monthly book chat on unmasking autism by Dr. Devin price. And don't worry if you've not read the book, we were expecting that no one read the book. If you read the book, we'd love to hear your thoughts on the book. Otherwise, this is the kind of thing that we don't expect. So we're just going to have a good conversation inspired loosely by the themes of this book by a way of introduction as as as as many of you have figured out already. The forms of participation are okay here, you can have your video on or off and if it's on we do not expect anything of you we certainly don't expect you to look at the camera. We don't, you know, walk move stem fidget eat all the things and everyone is welcome here, people of all ages, which, of course, influences, the discretion we must take in the language that we use and the details of things that we share stuff. So that all communication is okay. You can unmute and use mouth words you can type in the chat box you can communicate however you're most comfortable. And, in addition to affirming all aspects of identity, it's really important to us as part of neuro inclusive space that we are respecting and honoring protecting one another's access needs and we'll talk more about that on the next slide. So I'll just say as a reminder today is for education purposes only. This is not medical advice and individual traumatic experiences are best processed and a therapeutic setting of which this is not. So our community advisory board met last week, and we had a great conversation around. How do we choose safety and community programs and how do we negotiate access needs and sometimes conflicting access needs not just a brain club but like everything we do. And so access needs. If you're if you're if you're new to bring club that when I what I mean by that term is access needs being anything that anyone needs to fully and meaningfully participate in whatever they're doing. We all have access needs. And sometimes those conflict, often those conflict and we talk about that it brings up like every week. But what we try to do at our community programs is in order to use safety for people with a broad range of communication related access needs. We want to be able to account for giving space and time. So we may pause to let something sink in we may pause for giving people you know extra extra processing time, we want to create space for people who and by the way like you do not need to directly communicate during playing club ever that is never expected of you. And if you want to we want it to be safe and comfortable for you to do that either in the chat box or with with with mouth words. So what that sometimes when the conversation goes so quickly and like ping-ponging all over the place sometimes it's hard to insert yourself into conversation that actually comes up in this book. So anyway, so and there's also of course the, the, the perception of time and attention challenges that make it hard where like I have a kind of brain like right now like I've probably been speaking for five minutes without taking a break and that is probably was the needed for the essence to do so so we want to as a as a facilitator I may from time to time kind of move conversation along, especially if other people have their hands up and stuff like that. So just to name that last bit of access. So you just have to toggle it on if you'd like to use it depending on your version of zoom, you can click live transcript CC, or if that's not an option you can choose the more dot dot dot and choose show subtitles or hide subtitles turn it off. Okay. So, unmasking autism. Dr. Devin price. The gist is to be presenting the concept of the mask and actually we're actually going to play a video clip. I'm listening to Dr price actually describe what masking is in just a minute. Essentially, it is the involuntary automatic protection that evolves that is very common for neuro divergent people and other marginalized people. And essentially when life gives messages that say that the way you authentically are is broken and wrong. You often evolve adaptations to stay safe, and that that is for many people how masking begins. And then he goes on to describe the unmasking process and first to even ask, is it safe to unmask, and for many people is not safe to unmask, or it is not always safe to unmask, and in many ways. We think about all of the many aspects of identity all the many ways in which people are marginalized and othered and we think about the, you know, the intersectionality of those experiences. When we think about, you know, the more marginalized you are. It's safe that is to unmask many environments and so I wanted to say that up front, because I think that while, while people tonight may be talking about experiences of unmasking. That is not a, you know, a foregone conclusion that may not even be the goal that may not actually be the, the right thing to do, until we establish safety within community of people who get it, who are safe bucket people as my six year old would say. And then of course, I'll, and we'll get into some of some some some of what the author describes as the process of unmasking. So, Lizzie, are you ready to play the video clip. Yeah. Cool. Did you do the checkbox for sound is the worst part. I'm not going to go into details and laughter faking whatever the socially appropriate emotion in any given scenario seems to be even if we don't understand why people are feeling the way that they seem to be feeling forcing ourselves to make eye contact or developing a system such as conversational scripting. So memorizing kind of routine interactions based on what we've seen from others or we've memorized from TV or movies or practicing conversations alone in the bathroom or something like that. Pretending to understand a social situation that doesn't make any sense to us, maybe just imitating what everyone else is doing. Intense agreeableness. So just kind of going with the flow or going along with whatever is asked of us so that we don't fulfill that cold stubborn, unhelpful autistic stereotype. Intense inhibition and shyness because we don't know what the right thing to say is, but we've often said the wrong thing in the past. Drinking drug use self harm, eating disorder behaviors and social isolation as ways of managing sensory overwhelm. So just trying to blunt how intensely painful the world is using substances and other sources of stimulation. That's privacy and withdrawal because we don't feel safe around others because we've been rejected a lot in the past. Leaning really heavily into whatever socially prized traits we do have. So really making our identities into being smart or, you know, being helpful to others or whatever it is that we've been told that we're pretty adept at. So that's the kinds of math that we are those kinds of autistics. Many of us choose freelance work instead of conventional nine to five workplaces. I say choose, but often it's just out of necessity, because office environments or customer service environments are really fast paced, loud, bright noisy over stimulating. And there's a lot of social work and emotional work that you have to do that's really draining so many of us instead have to take up consulting or are underemployed because we just can't. Can hack it in a neurotypical workplace because there's just so much being demanded less. And these are just a sample platter again of some of the masking strategies people use. And we know that masking is associated with burnout. It is associated with. Okay, so let me take that back over. Okay, so what we heard. Oops, there we go. What we heard is that there are many strategies for for coping with that message of it is not. I keep leaning on my keyboard. It is not okay, you are not okay to show up the way that you authentically are. There's a part of the book that prompts some reflection on what does your mask protect you from, and invites the question of recalling a time early in life when you felt intense embarrassment or shame. And often it's memories like that, that stimulate the layers of the mask that stack up over time. And what many people describe and stop sharing. What many people describe is that that mask is reinforced, people get positive feedback, sometimes for their mask. And that is another layer of trauma for many people. So the question in the chat Kelly says I was curious based on what he said, do you think that intoxication is a type of mask absolutely as a as a more quote acceptable way to to to show up. Absolutely. Yeah. And when we think that neurodivergent people are more likely to struggle with substances. This all this, this is all a very common association. I wonder and I'm just actually Sarah can with the rest of that clip is is is this does Devon price go into specific detail or is he just make a mention. I'm not sure I'd have to watch it again. No, then we're not going to play the rest of the video. Okay, okay. So he also he also describes masking as an overcorrection. The idea of even as you know young children we get these messages of what it is bad to be. I was you know I was taught it was bad to be arrogant. So I had to pretend to be humble, and I did this by pretending I didn't know the answers to questions, keep in silent when people said things that weren't true. I'm just softening statements with like, well maybe I wonder if I'm giggling because the offerings belong staff. We, in our culture of interdependence we had to, we had to write some emails with some intentional softening of language last night. Christina says, oh sorry, Pat says first regarding masking strategies people use strategies employee choice yeah the word strategies. We're really talking involuntary. Not a choice. Yeah. And so let's so let's let's let's let's talk about that, because I think you're absolutely right. Christina says I think it depends too about substances social interactions are alone sometimes if others are intoxicated around you. And people can unmask because it's interpreted as as though you were intoxicated when really you were just showing up authentically yeah, let's scroll back let's scroll back up to cat's point about the involuntary nature of the mask. Anybody have thoughts about that. Hi Sarah. Hi. Yeah, I was going to say that I think that it becomes involuntary because when you're a child, it's a coping mechanism. So it kind of just gets adapted into your psyche as you know, it becomes such a strong part of your identity as a child because you don't even realize that it is a coping mechanism is just what you needed to do to get through that situation so I feel like it kind of it becomes an unconscious thing, and it's not until you start to unlearn and unpack that you're like, maybe that's, you know, maybe that's not serving me well. Absolutely. And one of the examples that Devon price gives in the I was taught it was bad to be bucket is like I was taught it was bad to be sensitive. And so, you know, I had to pretend to be the opposite of that, but not voicing my needs, feeling ashamed whenever I wanted to express my emotions or felt like that I had emotions to express and fighting internally with every disruptive emotion felt. I mean it says in the chat I can't remember when I did not mask, but I think I was never really good at it. CD says I've done it for five decades now so I am unsure what the mask is and isn't. Oh yes, Laura. I'm trying kid, but I'm, it's making me wonder about the difference between like a skill that you choose to use versus something out of survival that you have to use so maybe it is a strategy but it's one you're forced to use so it isn't a choice. I agree and you know so so so cat is, you know, questioning the use of the word pretending, because pretending and is implying that it is like a volitional strategy like I'm going to pretend like I'm going to pretend I'm Santa Claus like I don't know that that I mean it's it's you know a more neutral like a like a some other language I had to be X. I was told it was this and I had to be this as opposed to like I'm going to make the choice to like try on this character. There may be some, you know, theatrics involved of like showing up as a character that you're emulating or something like I think I think there are maybe some aspects of that but like the traumatic parts of this these I mean these are trauma responses are in involuntary trauma responses. Because I never fully realized that masking was happening. I just knew it helped avoid uncomfortable situations, and however also put me in uncomfortable situations if I put on a mask of others around me that may not have been the best or safest people for me. Right and I think that, you know, for example, one, one common, you know, strategy right is people pleasing, fawning for survival for safety, and that that that often results in really unsafe situations. Christina says, Well, sometimes I can choose to but it's like when I intentionally mask it's like an alternative personality. Right that's like, that's one flavor of that. And then there's the like the like the deep rooted like I don't know who I am because as Sarah said, from early on in life I got these, you know, I couldn't be myself and so I have this you know this disconnection from from my identity. My identity is and like, you know when I think back to like how I started thinking about because you know Luna has the kind of brain that like really learns top down, like she has to know something's a thing before she can think about the thing. And so that's one of her access needs a cognitive access needs so when we start talking about true self and like the true self of different characters you know who's the who's the true self of like Elsa from frozen or something anyway. The true self is like, What do I like, what do I dislike, who are my people. What do I enjoy, what do I play what do I, you know what are what are my interests, where, where am I where do I feel safer I belong. And for so many people they don't they actually don't know those things. Because those things were not only not valued, but they were actively shamed. And as I, I think my need to be humorous evolved as a mask, right so that that that might be, you know, very in a fawning behavior if I make everyone laughing if I make everyone laugh that in some ways keeps me safer. You're making me think of something now actually it's like, and everybody talking actually it's making me think of something like a concept. Because masking is such a broad term but there's like how I feel like what people are saying and how I feel about it is like, there's sort of like external masking and internal masking and what I mean like that is like, when I want to, when I'm in work mode or I have to in a professional environment like kind of put on a little bit of a show to like get people to like kind of work with me better. It's like a performance so it's like it's more like like an external mask but the internal masking is more like, I'm avoiding my feelings, or, or in stuff like that. Like, trying to not feel uncomfortable in certain situations so that it's like kind of like a double layer so peeling off of both those things to get, you have to get to like to not be masked it's really challenging. Absolutely I mean you're really talking about the difference between, you know, sometimes people use the term code switching, or just like you're making a choice to say like it's not that like my innate social skills are broken or defective it's just I am actually going to make a choice to like, say something in a way that is, you know, directed at reaching my audience. Hi, I think I might have forgotten what I was going to say. I think the thing what was interesting for me as a child is like, I knew from a really early age that I had to hide myself. And so, I think the mass became about this sort of internal world but I think the other thing that happened as a result of this like I, which is like a trauma response which is like I felt like there was a lot of chaos and I was overstimulated. And so I thought like oh if I take care of everyone in my house and make sure everyone else is regulated then there'll be space for me. And it just took me to like two years ago to realize like that's never going to work. The interesting thing was I read Devin's price prior to being diagnosed and was like finding myself, and then I like the last couple days was listening to it again. And it was interesting because even his description around things was really assertive in my experience around like what it is and what it isn't. And so it was kind of a cool difference because in the beginning when I first read it if I didn't have the experience I'd be like in terror like I'd almost be, do I have to mask as like an autistic person because I think I really knew I was autistic but reading it again, realizing that I have such a closer relationship to what my mask is and when I need to use it and when I, the distinction around like courtically overriding as a way as survival versus like trying to fit in and just the subtleties of the mask and how complex that can be for individuals. And just like the process of being able to have a conversation and having a space where everybody gets to have their own experience, including their mask. And so I think it's really cool to have a conversation where I think that there's important to have I think new discoveries and dynamics and like assertions around what things are not. But it's also super cool to like even be able to undo that within ourselves of like, oh I still get to, because I think there's an assertion around like autistic people are from like think from bottom up, and here you tonight are saying mel no like Luna is like a top down and so it's like, we get to have our own experience, even within that and so I feel excited to have be here with everybody tonight. Awesome. Thank you Amy Laura and then I'm going to catch up with the chat. Mel I need you to unpack thoughts for me because they're coming out really rocky and rough here. I'm thinking about empathy and I'm thinking about the double empathy problem and what you're saying about masking is making me think of how extremely empathetic autistic people need to be to be able to effectively mask. So being able to read your audience and display what you think your audience wants to see is often how we capture empathy. And it also probably makes it harder to have that double empathy problem resolved because if you have a mask up people have no way of really being able to see what your own needs are and and reflect back what what you're looking for from that encounter if that makes sense. It's almost like you have been really thinking about the internal aspects of the autistic experience, or something. So Laura does for living. So, so um, no, no, I mean that's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yes, all of that. I'm just like just some jargon busting out for you know the double empathy problem is a term, a term, a term coined by Dr Damien Milton is an autistic social scientist in the UK. From 20 years ago, 15 years ago, that research that looked at communication between autistic people versus communication between neurotypical versus, or you know non autistic versus autistic people. It's, it was the mismatch of communication style and worldview that explained breakdowns it was not it was it was really disproving the idea that there were like normal social communication skills and then also out here who doesn't have them, and that's not what it was and yet and yet Laura, think about how, how harmful the stereotypes are. I mean there's so many things that are harmful but stairs up the stereotypes about, you know, about autistic people lacking empathy, like, I have so much empathy it hurts. And that's the case for so many autistic people. So, I think about empathy as like a sensory system I think it's energy I think if you're porous to energy and it's all coming in I mean you can call it empathy but whatever whatever words land for you. That is responsible for so much dysregulation. So, so yes, I'm reading in the chat. Lauren says, I find it harder to mask. Now, how has it changed for others. And I want to open that up because that is a very interesting topic. I can say that one of the things that go that that that even though we're saying that the involuntary masking that is not consciously like I make a choice to do this, there is still a certain amount of high level of fortical functioning required, the executive functioning required for impulse control, even if you're not like, hmm, you know, I could stem or hop or whatever and like I'm going to override that that actually takes brain power, like a lot of it. So, as people are flunging deeper and deeper into autistic burnout, where that state of physical and emotional exhaustion stacked up from decades of capacity being exceeded by demands, and often. So, when people reach profound levels of autistic burnout, they actually lose the ability to mask. It's not that they like get fed up and they're like, I'm going to stick it out and show up like there's this chapter of this book about like showing radical, I forget the term, I'm like the worst facilitator of a book chat and you ever anyway, but so so just the idea of like it's not necessarily like an I'm done, I'm ready to shop authentically and radically me. It's like, I don't know my executive function doesn't work anymore I can't mask. And that's how I got my autism diagnosis that and I think that's the case for for a lot of people. I'm wondering, has anyone else had the experience of over time, losing the quote ability. Even though it's something that we're saying is, you know, in an ideal world we wouldn't have to have this ability or this practice at or whatever has any it's really autistic burnout as a state of loss of skills capacity is exceeded by demands, resulting in such profound exhaustion and loss of skills. And to the extent that we're saying that there's some element of executive functioning skills involved in a mask. That's why I'm saying those things I think are linked. Anyone else have that experience or different experiences anything. Amy. And that's exactly what happened like I was explaining earlier like I was so hidden to the outside world that like my house would be a complete wreck or you know the the symptoms of it, not having executive functioning but how I appeared professionally or how I appeared, like even to my family I wouldn't let anyone in my house. And when, when the autistic burnout goes got, I mean it had been just building building over years but when I got so bad it's like I couldn't hide myself from people anymore. And I was never a person who flipped my lid and at one point I had like this like 20 loads of laundry and I had like ants all throughout my house and I just like it was just kind of a disaster for me and I could had no energy to do anything and my sister showed up with my niece and I, I basically like started swearing at them and yelling at them I was like this moment of like, I have no ability to hide this anymore. And my sister was like, thank goodness was like, I don't care, like, I am no I am staying like I am doing your laundry with you today like and so it was like a moment for me but it was like it broke completely open this mask that was so hidden to myself even, you know, and to have done that in front of my niece which was like completely uncharacteristic of me. I just like started turning everything around, you know, I was like, I need help, and I need like a lot of help. And so thanks for asking, because it's like something I get you get to share very often or like people would understand and it's like, it's like, it's like saying God and like humiliating all at once you know, because it's just like you thought you were holding it all together and the appearance like it's like the shell just kind of cracks and I there was no going back after that for me, you know, so thank you for sharing that right and so I think you know and just modeling the vulnerability of like you know just I think for so many people there's so much I think I think people think that they're the only ones who completely lose it. I lose it all the time. And it was really only after starting to talk about that. And then hearing like, oh yeah, you too. Right. So it's like this like this like hidden secret. And I'm sorry for not noticing who was first Kelly versus Kim. Kim you want to go first. Sure. Hi, this is only my second brain club so I'm glad to be here. But this, this is definitely a topic that resonated with me because I burned out four years ago and I lost the ability to small talk, like I just woke up one day and I couldn't do it. You know, and I lost the ability to like go to a restaurant and not be overwhelmed by noise had never happened to me before. And it was really disorienting. It was, it was, it was scary. And if my if I hadn't known if I hadn't read extensively about autistic burnout because my kid had been through it I would have been even more scared but fortunately, I'd been on hyper focusing and learning about autism for a long time so I learned really quick what was going on but to kind of be in the I was a lot. I, and I still like I lost a lot of skills. And I still haven't gotten a lot of them back. I'm still like really bad at masking and small talking now so I don't even try as much just because even though it's been four years and I'm kind of learning about I, the skills just haven't come back that's how kind of devastating burnout has been, but I'm figuring out, I guess, a new way to be who I am, and that's much healthier and it's, it's wild that has taken you know 40 plus years to realize that I have to learn to do this, but it's really great to hear other people who are, you know, in the same boat, because it is very, when you're going through that and not knowing what's going on, and it's much worse to be going through that alone and to find other people who are all of a sudden, going through the same thing. Amen. I mean, so much of this is like when you when you go it alone and the shame and isolation and like all of it, it just makes it so much worse. And so, you are not alone, none of us are alone, or all navigating this this this this thing, this thing that like and I think as Amy said, it's like you, you, you have this, you know, you have these painful experiences that that sometimes are the thing that allow you to zoom out and be like not not see if not happening not anymore. Tell me. Yeah, so I think my experience has been a little bit different. I remember when I started having enough control to internally mask and then when I started having enough control to externally. I might, you know, trip over some wording because I'm going back into memory when words were a little different than they are now and trying to like pull new terminology into the past. But when I was young, I was a kid that you could recognize had a learning disability from just at first meeting them. I had some selective mutism, and I was deregulated a lot, and it was, I guess, like what they call like the cringy behavior now like I couldn't not do it for a really, really long time it wasn't until my teams that I started having enough control over my executive functioning since having enough control over building up enough executive functioning to be able to kind of internally mask. And, you know, it's based on access needs now back then it was like functioning labels and I don't love that by any means but I think that that's sometimes how neurotypical people when they're looking from the outside in. I see that is the level of masking that maybe you have control over internally and externally to some extent I know that's not the whole story by any means but I think that that may play a big role at least observationally. I think I think I think I think you're absolutely right and there's also like in order to like the self monitoring piece of zooming out and being like am I showing up authentically or not like that's actually a higher level cortical function in and of itself. So no wonder if you're in burnout or you know you're you don't have access to this it's like, you really can't you really can't tell you just stop functioning. I grew up in a home where I had good social role models, and I, you know, was a bit alienated I was also an immigrant so I was a little bit alienated at school as well. And it took me even though I always had strong empathy, it took me a really long time to memorize kind of mathematically the social cues and facial expressions of others. And it was really tiring so I think I couldn't mimic things for a very long time because I just couldn't. For a while I didn't even care to learn it because I didn't feel like people were taking an interest in me so I take an interest in them but when I finally cared to learn it was a built skill it took a really long time, and a mask has to be based on something right so if I'm not connecting with anything around me I'm not basic, I don't have anything to base a mask on. Yeah, and I think that connection piece I think when, you know there's all this this all this mythology out there but you know when someone went off and I'll hear, you know, somebody talking often talking about a child you know that child prefers to play first to play alone it's just not it's not safe to play with the people who are around you so you prefer to play alone because this is the alternative. And as opposed to like if there were actually somebody who you could like so Kelly so it's interesting so tell me more about that so what you do so I still prefer to play alone. How do you tell how do you tell that it's preference versus I'm trying to, I'm really trying to recover from from from the rest of my interactions. So, I think I remember when I wanted to not sit alone at lunch and the reason I wanted to not sit alone at lunch was people stared at me more when I sat alone. I really wanted to be alone, I much preferred to be alone, but that extra attention that I was getting by being alone was much more uncomfortable than just dealing with people. Now, I still will hide at least 15 minutes a day. And if I don't get that alone time ID regulate I really enjoy social connection just through writing or on the computer but in person like I just really don't. If I was given the choice between, you know, doing something I enjoyed by myself in my room or doing something that I enjoyed with other people nine times out of 10 I would choose my room. Absolutely and so would I, and it's because I'm exhausted. I have the choice to be around because I'm very lucky there are a few people in my life that really get it. And even I feel guilty sometimes because even if I have the choice to be around them. Once in a while I want to but it's it's not. I'm usually just as happy on my own. Yeah, and I think that it's interesting because I think that when we think about all the, you know the personality dynamics, you know, introversion extroversion where do you get your power from where do you charge your battery from I think that having when you when you charge your battery and alone time and you don't get it that's and that's a failure of an access need and that's so so often. You know not met for people Laura. I'm just thinking of early in my marriage. My husband is really best friends and we do everything together and we've been high school together since then. And we didn't yet know that he was autistic and one day I found out that before he came home every day he would park his car and go sit somewhere in the house before he would come home. And I was so hurt and I took it so personally until we were able to sort out that like, it's nothing against you and I love my time with you but I need time where I'm not with you and that's important and I feel like understanding that was such a game changer and in our friendship beyond our relationship to say like, Oh it's okay that sometimes we need time where we're not together, even just being in the same house he's like even if you're upstairs I'm downstairs I need to be like away from the way in a car somewhere. Thank you for sharing that and I think that like that that that's where it's like how you appraise a situation really matters if you tell the story like someone's trying to recover from their time with me, like that is one narrative. Another narrative is, Oh, this is a person who has an access need to charge their battery from within. And that's, you know, there's, there's, there's all this messaging around that you know we're supposed to be with people all the time, Amy. My husband and I are also best friends and been together we do we're business partners we've done everything together. And when the burnout started I would basically ask him like will you please leave the house, because I it was the only time that I could, I could be myself and it was one time I remember he was traveled for like a week. And it was the first time in a long time about my, and I could just feel the muscles in my face by the time, like, within five days that the my muscles in my face started relaxing. And it had been the first time in years that I noticed like, Oh, this is a physically affecting me, like being partnered with someone because I think prior to being with him I was alone. All of the time and, but then I think when that when autism came in and we started looking at that and I could start naming the thing with him of like what was happening for me I started, I think initially starting to unmask in front of him and then because there was so much curiosity from him that we could start having this dialogue and are like our both of our special interests was like autism. It was like really a lot more enjoyable but I still feel the physical toll like even being around in ABB there's there is a physical toll to being around and even speaking. So I'm trying to try and work that out because it doesn't necessarily feel like a mask, but there is a physicality to expressing in a particular way a particular when you don't know people or it's just a second guessing of that and so I just wanted to mention that part of like the physical pain that can come from asking. Absolutely. And I think that even, I mean thinking about the, you know, the just, I think about this as like a battery thing. And you know, like with any electronic device like you know because I never remember to charge my phone, you know, executive functioning. And today it was at 2% battery I was like, Oh, I could make a phone call, or that I know how that ends. So I went like plugged it in and didn't make a call. Um, I mean it was great because I hate making calls. So Sony was an excuse, but it was point is in brains. It's the same thing. But we don't charge our battery we just keep doing the thing. And that's how burnout happens. So it's just reading in the chat. Sorry, I'm very much not caught up. But I love how active the chat is. See, Amy or take back Amy Amy gave me some feedback about like how I like manage the chat and the conversation all at once. I don't know actually that I do that at all. And it's actually like the hardest thing ever, and I'm exhausted. Anyway, so like, I think it's really ironic that like, just by even bringing attention to that I can actually no longer do it. It's really interesting it was very, very much not intentional. I think it's the color in my house off the color right. It's, it's, it's that time. The culture in my household now includes everyone has their own personal space their own bedroom that's their own we continue to have our own spaces. And I think it's you know it's interesting it's like it's like how do you create that I mean so you know even even if there's not additional like rooms to have a room like how can you how do you teach people to create their own space, even their own internal space that's what I think that's what a lot of the, like the, like the withdrawing the blazing over the retreating like it's a survival skill of creating space. Cat, I'm scrolling. Yeah noise canceling headphones, lots of people sharing that lockdown. I was thinking about that just this morning. That lockdown you know there's so many challenges of that lockdown time including like you know people getting sick, loved ones dying from COVID like all of this, and that that shared experience of people being of going through something together. There, there, there were, they're together while separate and maybe for the first time meeting some sensory and communication access needs that maybe people didn't know they had that some people's not everybody's experience. But it's a. It's hard when you don't know what your access needs are, but I think that beginning from a place of this isn't working what's not working and maybe like being able to think about what it is that's not working might help you figure out what the need is. And he says lockdown was what got me out of burnout because it imposed boundaries with the outside world that I could not but in place myself, and he says that was a big part of me coming out of burnout as well. So noticing ones mask. So noticing the difference between, you know, and, you know, rather than, you know necessarily appraising it as like unmasking or not unmasking but just like feeling safe. And we've talked about this at brain clubs past around how do you, how do you know versus how do you feel when it's safe to be yourself. I think that many people struggle to answer that question. And I think that maybe it, because I think I think so many people have never felt that, or so rarely feel that that they don't necessarily recognize it go ahead. I have a like a anecdote like I don't know it's a little story like. My partner is currently the only person, one of the very few people besides my children and his children or whatever that I don't that I'm not. It's like I can't mask around him it's weird because I think he's autistic to although he doesn't agree with me. And it's kind of like when we go out and do things. It's this weird experience where it's like this bubble that kind of goes with me where I'm like unmasked if he's around. So I only, I noticed it a lot when like, I'm doing and I'm in a social environment, and I do see other people's responses to like our interactions and stuff. And that's what I realized that I am fully unmasked out and about. And it is a very odd experience that I didn't have before having this like particular connection, with the exception of my children. But it's different when it's an adult versus a child because you can be kind of like goofy and silly with child and people just think you're playing but with another adult. It's different. So that's just like a weird experience that I've had that I feel like finding a safe person is kind of like really important. Yeah, I think everyone needs a safe person. I, I, you know, one of one of my goals in quitting my job to start all brains belong is that people would find safe people here that people would would come. They would find some connections, they would have the practice of showing up authentically, and that they would feel better. And that was the whole point. Because it's very it's like when you think about the, like the, you know, last last month's book chat was was was about shame, and, and for all the limitations of that book or that author or those messages like shame is actually a thing and it's actually bad for people. And I think that isolation really drives that. I'm glad CV. I'm glad. So as we, as we, I'm just reading. So, so, so Laura's, Laura's saying, we don't have enough bedrooms for everyone to have their own rooms but but we're, but initially I viewed this as a failure that I couldn't make it work with sharing rooms but now I realize how important it is to how important it's accessing is to helping them find safety at home, or making things work right now, even within the context of sharing rooms right, and it's about how do you figure out what your needs are and how to how can we be creative about how to get those needs met. And there are like, you know, the, there's there's there's like the world rules of like, I can't snap my fingers and put up a wall and I don't like I don't have the resources to build a wall, like I, it's not happening. So I figure out how within the same room, we're going to figure out how to get our access needs met and how do we talk about that transparently. Laura cat says yes meals look very different for us now we eat when we want to where we want to what we want to yes, right just making the choice to drop that demand of like this is the way meals are supposed to look, because that was not working. And like Laura said the nostalgia and internal messaging that this was the right way to do things right it's it's it's like we talk about it bring a couple lot is unlearning those messages around, this is the right way to do it. Telly writes a friend has camping tents in the house for her kids that there's a camping tent, most of the time in my living room. They are the know no one can enter place. They got them by posting on Facebook and since she didn't need it to be watertight she had lots of people give them little two three person tents that's awesome. Oh I love that I love that. So as we head into I just want to name the thing. We head into April. A word on April. April for many people, whether you are new to the autistic community or not. April can be hard. April can be hard because there's like its autism awareness autism acceptance month and there's like all the fundraisers and walkathons for autism speaks they're not fundraising for all brains blog, they're fundraising for what many autistic people are doing. April can be a hate group. So like this is what goes on in April. So what we're going to do in August, August, April. It's really brain. April is autistic culture month here at brain club. I think it's going to be awesome. And next week we will be joined by a panel of community members talking about their experience coming to along their autistic journey. And I'm very, very excited about this and as we march through the month. There will be some, you know, some, some, some, the conversations will be pretty much like our usual conversations with with a couple of a couple of extras. Like in the second week of April, I'm going to be doing a reprise of last year's and a lot of you were at this last year. The stigma of autism and the role of the healthcare system in perpetuating that stigma so that's going to be in in two weeks. And I think, I think, I think it's going to be a good month, and we're going to try as you know just just just to remember that, you know, like the range of emotions that happen in April, not just because it's April because you might see some things that are upsetting, and to just know that there's, there's community here that you are not the only one like by the way you don't need to be upset when you see things about April. You are not alone. Laura's asking, is that a brain club or a separate event so it is going to be a brain club, but we're also going to be advertising it as a separate event with the, with, with, because I mean I think that message that that message just needs to be heard that like you like people talk about, you know, about inclusion and acceptance and like whatever but if you're still considering autism through this deficit based lens. That's gross, and it's really bad for health. You can totally invite nursing students you can invite anyone it's free invite the world it'll be great. All right everybody thank you so much for this wonderful conversation and we'll look forward to seeing you next week. Bye everybody.