 I'm Marcia Joyner and we are Navigating the Journey. As you know, Navigating the Journey is about the pathway through life, the journey that we take from the beginning to the end. And one of our very dear friends who was with us on this journey has passed. And she was named a living treasure of Hawaii, Sister Joan Chatfield. She was a Marino nun for 68 years. And so we decided that we would show you, we would replay some of the time that we spent with Sister Joan. And I am absolutely delighted that we had this time and that we can share it with you. So let's take a look at our living treasure. Just the most beautiful, beautiful person that I know, Sister Joan Chatfield. She is a Marino nun, missionary. Is that correct? What? Marino? Marino sister, that's correct. As well as the cultural, the chair of the cultural and such and such committee of the Interfaith Alliance of Hawaii. Welcome, Sister Joan. This is such a pleasure. Her spirit just fills up the room wherever she goes. It's just, I'll put the scenery on the green. It's just wonderful to have you. And of most people in Hawaii know you. They met you everywhere at all kinds of events, unlike anything or any other nun I have ever known. And I was christened in the Catholic Church in 1938, June 1938. So it's been a lot of nuns a lot of time. But you are just a beautiful, such an inspiration if someone thought, you know, I could be a nun after meeting you. Most of the time that's not what they come away with. So tell me all about you, about your life as a nun. Well, mostly Marino sisters are committed to going beyond where they came from. So even though I'm a member of the New Jersey tribe, I came from New Jersey. I left home at 17 to go to Marino. And then Marino trained me. And I was on a track for medical school and accepted at Georgetown. And a sister in Kanoe, who was teaching high school science and got sick, and Dr. Lipkorn Peng had to do surgery. And they needed a science teacher fast. So I came out here and I always say, I knew so little that you couldn't have even measured it. I mean, it was below the scale of measurement. And but it was a one, I was in Kanoe for three years, then Maui for eight years, then back to Honolulu. And during the 18 years of secondary education where I learned how to teach, I even got to be a very good teacher, not because of any education course I ever took, which I never took. But because of really appreciating what the learning experience is. So in the early days I taught always one class of religion and everything else science. So biology, chemistry, physics, general science, da, da, da, da, da. But then, after Vatican II, there were loads of people who didn't want to go teach religion, but everybody could teach science. So I let them do the science and I went on and then got a degree. My first degree in religion in New Testament, early Christian community studies at University of San Francisco, marvelous experience. And then I came back and worked at Merino High School, finished my secondary education time. And then I went to Berkeley Graduate Theological Union and the University of California, Berkeley to get a degree in sociology of religion. And I make the distinction that the psychologist is a specialist to ask questions of the individual and the sociologist trains to ask questions of society. And then I specialized only in religion. So I'm a practicing Catholic as a marionole sister. But I'm also a sociologist broader than just my Catholicism. And it's helped me to take positions that say, look, my church doesn't want this, so I don't wouldn't do this, but I need to tell you about the whole of society. And probably got some visibility in writing an essay that or having an essay published just before the special session of the vote on gay marriage and gender equity. But the real issue why so Catholics don't want it, that's okay, I can understand that, but let's go beyond. And I think this is an issue that has had the wrong name put on it too much. It's too, the focus is supposed to be on living and making decisions about life. And then it got co-opted by the word suicide and it has nothing to do with suicide. Absolutely nothing. And so I really, when you asked if I would come talk about it, part of it is because I have a whole new theory and we'll get to that after you let me get to my theory. I do have a theory. Well, of course, we will get to that. Okay, I don't know where to go first. I wanna talk to you, one of the things you said about the history of the church and about the religion and we will get to the changes that have happened in the church because I have seen, I'll be 79 next month. And I have seen all kind of changes, but it goes back 2,000 years and the changes. Longer than that, longer than that. I think that's the problem. People particularly see institutional religions as more connected with the cement and mortar that are there buildings and it's not. So that's one thing. The second thing is that changes occur from the good expression of the leadership for the need for the change. They don't do it haphazard, they don't do it willy-nilly. But when they do it, and the best example I have right now is the change that I didn't look up the year, but I think it was 1979, but I'm not dead certain, but how about that, dead certain. This is the change about cremation and it was done by all of the Japanese bishops, every single Japanese bishop signed on to the request that Japan be allowed to cremate because it was a social necessity. Not just because they didn't have enough land, but because everybody else was doing it and it was a distortion of what burial in the ground, the dust though are to dust. This is just getting the dust there faster. That's really what cremation is. But the upshot of it is that the people who did that request also did a good search in history and found documents in the second and third century that showed that there was cremation in certain places. And at that time, one part of it had to do again with space, but the other part had to do with disease. And I'm pretty sure after the bubonic plague there was cremation. I would think so because they didn't have all of the tools we have now to. But the other part is the mystery of knowing that at the end of time you're going to be reconnected and decided, I know as a child, my first challenge was the guy who did the flying tiger's chenalt. And when he died, he wanted his ashes sprinkled from California across Hawaii, across the Pacific to Japan. And I'm thinking, how's God going to put him all together? And my mother would very dutifully say, well, there's nothing that's a problem for God. So I'll take the answer for that. But no, I think it's important to learn how history and religion fuse. And this will happen eventually. It's going to take a while, but it'll happen. Yeah, it'll happen. There are so many of those changes that I have seen growing up in Baltimore as a young kid. And then we weren't supposed to eat meat on Friday. Well, when you grow up in a seafood city, seafood is wonderful every day. So who cares? What kind of sacrifice? There's no sacrifice not to eat meat. Come on. And then what I remember as really small was that meat was rationed during the war. During the war, right? So to get two slices of liver, we had to stand in line at the slaughterhouse. So fish was plentiful. Who cares about meat? Yeah, so those kinds of things. It's the whole connection with spirituality. And I think we're more alert to the fact that spirituality is what should determine one's holiness, and so many people said to me, well, Sister Joan, really talk about that? Yeah. Let's all talk about that. Yes, she will. Really? I'll talk about it. Yes, she will. So how do we arrive at this position when the church has a different position? Okay. The first, well, let's back up, let's back up to the hospice movement. And then we had the wonderful founder of the St. Christopher's in London come here under Dr. Maria Brough when she was the medical director for Eileen Anderson. So it goes, and then we had St. Francis Hospice, where he had Hospice Hawaii Inc. That was it. We didn't have any more at that time. Now we have five more hospices that work well. And hospices per se are able to take care of a patient when they have the determination by the doctor that this is not going to get any better, they're not going to do anything more to intervene. And so basically they're made comfortable. And if you remember, the original story was they had a thing called Dr. Brompton's cocktail. Dr. Brompton was the doctor in London who figured this all out. What he did was he kept people comfortable. And I think the medical profession has been doing that over time and probably long before hospice was invented. It's just that hospice gave it a dignity, hospice gave it a space, and so forth. Now it's very interesting in the very beginning, St. Francis Hospice under Sister Maureen Kellerher was right on the top of the line. She was the daughter of a policeman. I mean, she didn't miss any fun, you know, that was it. And she didn't particularly like the fact that hospice Hawaii Inc. was formed. And so at the time I was on the board of the Honolulu Theater for Youth. I come from a family where I had a mother who was on the stage in New York before I was born. So I love theater and Honolulu Theater for Youth is a great invention in this town. Every single student can get to see one or more plays a year. And they had a play about a young man whose father had died when he was young and he was at an age where he needed a man and his mother hadn't remarried and the whole play singles around the young fellow going out and walking on the beach and meeting this man who tells him, you know, you got to be good, you got to do this, you got to do that. And in the meantime, the mother, you learn that the mother has backed off into depression after the death of the father. So she's kind of hiding in her room and she comes out to make the meals and that and then she goes back in her room. And the boy had never been in her room. So the line, the critical line is that at the end of the play the boy opens the door and sees that the man who has been talking with him, the picture is of his father. So it was a, you know, it was a very powerful thing and it had to do with the whole concept of what happens in death and a young person dealing with it. So I decided that we would sell tickets that were green and yellow. And I never told anybody anything, but the green ones went to a bunch of people I know and the yellow ones went to, and the board members, we sell tickets and so forth. At the end of the last performance, we had made, we had profited about $16,000. So I got my friend in the bank to say, you know those big checks they have? I said, I need two of them. And we got two checks and we made a check for $8,000, $8,000. And we called up the director of hospice, St. Francis, and the director of hospice, Hawaii, both up on the stage and they didn't know what was happening there, each given a check for $8,000. I mean, you can't be getting money and then being nice and the two go together. Sister Maureen, it didn't involve the sisters. It involved the people who were actually working at hospice. And, you know, a lot of that now, Interfaith Alliance, which I'm connected with, just I think it was four years ago, we gave an award to every one of the hospice, units, again, to thank them for what they do in the society. My daughter is a RN with hospice, Island Hospice. Yes, Island Hospice, Wilson, I mean caregivers. I mean, they're marvelous. Aloha. As you know, it's time to take a break. And when we come back, we will see more of Sister Joan. But for one second, let me tell you that her memorial is tomorrow, the 21st of March at Sacred Heart Church, 1701 Wilder Avenue, 9 a.m. is the mass and she and everyone's welcome. And we'll be right, take a break and we'll be right back. Aloha. I'm Wendy Lowe and I'm coming to you every other Tuesday at two o'clock live from Think Tech, Hawaii. And on our show, we talk about taking your health back. And what does that mean? It means mind, body and soul. Anything you can do that makes your body healthier and happier is what we're going to be talking about. Whether it's spiritual health, mental health, fascia health, beautiful smile health, whatever it means. Let's take healthy back. Aloha. Aloha and welcome to At the Crossroads. I'm your host, Keisha King. I'm live at five every Wednesday, where we have entertaining and educational conversations that are real and relevant, both here in Hawaii and across the globe. I'll see you at the Crossroads. Aloha. Aloha. And we're back. It is a delight to show you Sister Joan. I am so sorry that we lost her because she was such a great part of the culture of Hawaii. However, those things happen, especially when you're navigating the journey. So let's go back and see the rest of the story. And we are having a wonderful discussion with Sister Joan. And so we were going from hospice to where we are with medical aid in dying. How do we get from there to here? How do we get from here to there? OK, one of the things is nobody goes into hospice or engages in hospice care unless they have made the decision that the end is coming. Now, sometimes it's going to be in a few days, a few weeks. Sometimes it's months. But that's not the point. The point is that they no longer get medical intervention. They don't get any drugs other than palliative. Now, those are for people who have a vocabulary that supports them to bring them to that point. It seems to me that we have a number of people who, when you say, well, a lot of people say, well, I was born this and I'm not that anymore. But they have a vocabulary from their youth, or they have a vocabulary until they were heard enough to leave. But there are people who have absolutely no religious vocabulary. They just have never been exposed to it. They call them the nuns. And it's N-O-N-E, not N-U-N-S. And I mean, somebody told me once, well, I'm a nun. I said, excuse me, give me a break. But the real issue is that for those people, they don't have the kind of tradition, internal tradition, which, if you were a Christian, Catholic or Protestant, evangelical, if you were a Jew, reformed orthodox or conservative, if you were a Buddhist, if you were a Hindu, if you were a Zoroastrian, you have that religious companionship, shall I say. You might not be real active, but you know that they're connected with you. Right now, for the nuns, those nuns, N-O-N-E-S, they don't have that. So sometimes I think they're the ones that most need the legislation that would allow them to make this decision. And then this is what. I have a friend who is in Oregon, and of course, have had the rule there longer than most of the states. And they have a study done that only 3% to 6% of the people who have the medication available to them use it. Oh, that means that 97 to 95 people don't use it. And what does that mean? What that means is it's a security, like having something on my table, that if it really got to the point where I couldn't stand that I could do that, but only 3% to 6% actually do. And I think that that's a part of the argument that hasn't really been discussed. And it should be. That should be brought into the fact that that's really what we're talking about. We're not talking about, for example, there's a Sacred Heart sister now, a real dear, 95 years old. And last year, just the week before Easter, she got this diagnosis of a terminal illness, cancer, in her spine, and so forth. And it's going to be very painful. She said, you're so cute. She said to me, no, I ask you, how could I be upset when this is the week before Easter? And I know what Jesus went through on the way to the cross. She has the vocabulary of the tradition, and she also has the love of the people who support her. And she's in a supportive community. She doesn't need pills. She's being kept comfortable. So I say, come on, let's talk about the people who don't have that. And that's, in my mind, that's a matter of social justice. It's a matter of necessity. And I mind that sometimes the institutional churches, especially the big ones, and in Hawaii, the Catholics are the biggest that I have the best vote. I mean, you know, if you have one. And so I just always say, I am a practicing Catholic. Don't get me wrong. Do not tell me I'm not a Catholic. I am a very good Catholic. Thank you kindly. But I am talking for the people who were not good. And look, any kind of religious tradition is a gift for God's sakes. You don't come out of the room and say, I will not be born, unless I can be born in an institutional church. Of course not. It depends on your parents. It depends on your location. It depends on your family. And we need to have more understanding for the people who really are diminished in this area. If you stop and talk to somebody who has no religious tradition, I mean, for me, it's a picnic. I can talk for hours because there's a lot to say. And then they say to me, you really mean, do you believe that? Yes, belief is a gift. It's not something that I earned. It's not something that is something I better use, right? And I think that's the reason why I come on these programs and get into trouble. I do get into trouble. We all know that. But that's worth it if you get the truth out. Well, that is my position, obviously, coming from that same tradition, that if you choose to be a Catholic or Protestant or whatever, that's your choice. And if you choose not to go down this route, again, that's your choice. That's what our program is about respecting people's choices. So if you choose to have the cocktail, as you mentioned, then you should be allowed to make that choice. And I should not stand in the way of you making that choice. And that's what our program is about. And that's really where the more we can help people understand this, I think it's a gift to the whole community, even to the ones that go down and get bussed into to give the objection in the legislature. I mean, thank you kindly. That's not quite it. Well, that should be nice to people. Now, they do bring up some issues that aren't in the bill. They talk about a slippery slope. And they talk about old folks and the handicapped. And that's not slippery slope is there now. It has nothing to do with the legislation. It does. It's there. Because if you want to do harm to somebody, we just saw that yesterday on the news where this kid did away with his mother. If you want to do harm to somebody, you can do it. Our courts are full of people that did harm to somebody. And we should be more careful about how we give ethical training to people along the way. The Unitarian Church and the United Church of Christ have done a beautiful, cooperative program to teach people respect. And it could look like sex education because that is a component of it. And often, that's where the fractures come, where people don't understand their sexual behavior and their ethical behavior. Thank you, Mr. Governor of Alabama. I didn't do anything wrong. Excuse me. Give me a break. There's a whole idea of how people understand what's right and wrong. And they don't learn it automatically. They have to be taught. And unfortunately, people are taught racism and they're taught a lot of nasty stuff. They ought to be taught a lot of good stuff. Yes. Well, sister, will you come back and spend more time with us? Whenever you want. We could just talk forever for the rest of your day. I don't know why people would like that. I tell you, if nuns were like you, when I wanted to be a nun, I would be a nun. Oh, well, one of your kids say, I mean, you don't know. That's not nice. I have lots of children, lots of grandchildren, and now a great-grandchild. So if I have a minute, let me tell you that the big vocation problem in the church is with the parents. Oh, I wanted you to be a doctor or a lawyer or an Indian chief. I wanted you to bring these grandchildren. I wanted you to take care of me when I'm old. Give me a break. I mean, that prevents vocations more than anything else. I know. Oh, yes. That's another one. Yes, please come back and spend some more time with us. This is absolutely wonderful. There's so much history about this church. I love this church. You have had history and the courage to stand up to the Catholic Church on any number of issues and remain in the Catholic Church. That's right. Very important. Yeah. Those prepositions are very valuable. So that we look at their stand, and they've been very public about this, yet, and you correct me if I'm wrong, yet my understanding is in the Bible, it says that we have free will that God created us with this really wonderful thing called free will. We get to choose right or wrong. The Bible teaches us what is right. We get to decide because we were given that option. How is it that the church says that we don't have that option, that they make the decision? How do we get there? What happens? Well, you know, there's the story of the umbrella that it only works when it's up, you know, unless you use it as a cane, which is OK. But if you're going to put an umbrella up and you put it over you, whatever it is that you're preventing comes down outside of you. So the umbrella concept of theology is not spoken of usually in those terms because people like very serious theological principles. But the principles of the Judeo-Christian tradition are fundamentally within the umbrella. So you're standing there and the other stuff goes outside, but you're kept, if you want dry or if you want cool, or whatever you want the umbrella to do for you. So for people to understand why different religious traditions, and that would go from A to Z, from Animus to Zoroastrians, you don't care which one of those along the way. They each have their understanding of what their umbrella does for them. Now, the anguish has come recently, partially because of the way people communicate now and because we can talk so openly, like in a medium like this, and a lot of people hear it. They forget that the legitimacy of the umbrella is for the person underneath it. It can't keep those people dry or cool. So therefore, when the Catholics or evangelicals or anybody else takes a position with a group and then they say, everybody should take this position, hey, wait a minute, no, no, no. You should say, you know, if you're a member of my church, my church is saying this, and if you want to be a member of my church, you have to tangle with that concept in my church. And things do change. People forget that, you know, look at what's happened to celibacy. It's going up, it's going down, it's going up, and maybe it's going to go down with this pope, I don't know. But Peter had a mother-in-law. So come on, you can't get a mother-in-law. Well, you're married to a wife, yes. Therefore, we must have had not only married clergy, but married popes, for God's sake. Well, yeah, Pope Boniface had a family in the Vatican. So, you know, in other words, you think in terms of the internal. So that's, if you get that basic principle straight, and then you take the topic into the legislature, which is for the people, then that's where the rubber hits the road. That's where the gravity is hard, because probably the people who want to object to something really think they're objecting for themselves, but really they're trying to object it for everybody. And I say, you know, take a look at that umbrella again. It's such a simple image. It's such a simple thing. The umbrella has to work where you are in that community. Now, once you're a member of a society, we went through the same thing with the GLBTQ legislation and gender equity. And I was with somebody not too long ago that they had just decided after 26 years of fidelity, they were going to get married. And I said, okay, let's get real about this. Why did you now decide to get married? And he said, well, it's going to save us 32,000 on taxes. Where did the taxes come from? Government, government, yes, you know. And this guy happens to be a practicing Catholic. He's right up there in the front view of the church every day, or every week, I don't know about the day. But in other words, he's a member of the community, but he says, no, I'm going to this 32,000 is worth it. So, okay, so with that example, now let me get to the topic at hand. What has happened has been here, we have another entity here. We normally have the churches saying things. We not only have the government struggling with how to do this, but we also have the medical profession, which has had kind of an ownership of death and dying they have. Thank you kindly. And in fact, hospice was the first real breakthrough where people understood that it was perfectly legitimate to have palliative treatment at the time of death. That there was your first step. That was like how you got them closer to the umbrella. So I think we're moving towards this, but I say, and as I've said before, the real issue is what tools do you, the individual, what tools do you have to face the end time? And I'm willing to say that the people who have the tools of their religion, they're not going to use, right, the people that have no tradition or who have been hurt so that they can't stay in the tradition that they were born into or even converted into. I call myself the chaplain of the nuns, not N-U-N-S, but N-O-N-E-S. The people who are none because they've been so hurt by organized religion that sometimes has it's what I call it's P-A moments, which I suppose I shouldn't say, but if you don't know what P-A means, I say it means the pompous ass moments. When they, you know, I remember that a P-A moment. I have to watch my language on the television. But seriously, you know, when you get right down to it, nobody knows anybody who's going to live forever. That's a given. That's a given, okay? Nobody knows what it is that keeps them alive because what gave them their birth is still a mystery when they're getting ready to die, right? You know, those 23 grams. You remember the movie 23 grams that the almost dead body and the already dead body that was only 23 grams different, whether they were 100 pounds, 200 pounds, 300 pounds, 500 pounds, 600 pounds, 23 grams. That's a little bit else. What was that? That was the spirit. Well, yeah, maybe, but what's spirit? Well, we don't know. That's the whole point. So I say the most important part of this concept and this argument, this discussion is to keep it all open. And so when I say yes to come onto your program, they say, oh, you're gonna go and you're gonna speak. I said, you know, would you listen to the program? I hope you're listening. Because that's where we learn. That's where we stretch. That's where we stretch. And so isn't it interesting that in Oregon, where the people are in a program where they and their additional doctors have designated that they're at end of lifetime and they are given the pills that they could take? Okay, that only 6% of the people use the pills. The others have the pills there because why it is their, I call it their security blanket. They're really not too bad they could. But you know, they're just about ready. Oh, God, I can't take this one more day. And then the little grandchild comes in. Oh, granddad, you know, and whatever. We don't know what these circumstances of extension are for the person in conflict. But for some people, having the pills there for them is what I have in my Catholic heritage of God's place. Those are my pills. Okay. We have to take a break and we will be back in just a moment. Aloha. I trust that you enjoyed your visit with Sister Joan. And through the magic of Think Tech, YouTube and iTunes, you can revisit Sister as often as you like. I just love watching this video. Tomorrow, March 21, will be the last time we can really visit with Sister Joan. The memorial service is at Sacred Hearts Church, 1701 Wilder Avenue. The viewing is at 9 a.m. and mass at 10.30. The public is invited and we trust that you will see us again next week and enjoy Sister Joan as often as you like. Aloha.