 All right, y'all, we are live at five. Welcome, welcome to Peer Dog Talks Live at Five podcast. I'm your host, Laura Reeves, and I am so excited to have all you guys join us. And while everyone's hopping on, we've got a couple really super cool announcements. So this is some things that we've been working on really, really hard here at Peer Dog Talk for the better part of the last six months. So the fact that this is actually happening tomorrow is sort of mind-boggling to me. So there you go. In case you haven't heard tomorrow, we are launching a brand new, exclusive, nobody else's got it, perk for our patrons. And that is the Pure Pep Talk weekly text messages. It's kind of a fun, upbeat, educational, little tidbit. Just pops in on your phone and says hi. Like, how you doing? Think about this. And you can sign up to receive the Pure Pep Talk by becoming a patron. And we are so excited. Now, Natalie's gonna yell at me about this because I'm gonna tell you a little secret. You can actually become a patron for as little as $5 a month. I know, right? Now, that is less than a frappahoe or whatever it is you buy at your coffee stand each day. And that's for a whole month. So that's pretty awesome. And the Pep Talk, the patrons group, all of the things that we're doing with that, we've got a new Facebook group just for the patrons. We've streamlined a whole lot of these offerings. We've made it, the existing patrons group has grown into an all access community network basically of judges and breeders and experts and exhibitors and everybody with the same goal. And it is a community and it is pretty amazing. And we're very, very happy to have everyone there. And always remember that all of this that we're doing is with the goal of having your passion be our purpose. That's it. That's what we care about. So quickly, next up, if you haven't had a chance to check out the ebook, audio book download offering, i.e. how to stack your dog as part of it. The link in the chat will tell you how to get there. It's a great option if you've got a new litter, you want puppy buyers, friends on the quest for a well bred, pure bred dog, all that. And swag, oh yeah, new swag. Just released new items on the swag store. There's a link in the comments so you can wow your friends at your next event and super bonus. If you sign up as a new patron this week, you get a coupon code for 10% off your swag purchase. And how cool is that? Okay, back to school. Summer's over and it's time to hit the books. And we're talking about breed standards. Now, I kind of am guessing that all you guys know what a breed standard is, but if not, here's a high level interview, high level overview. What does your breed standard say? When was the last time you read it? And can you apply it to your dogs? So let's get started. My breed is German Wirehead Pointers. I can tell you the breed standard verbatim pretty much from top to bottom. And so I think that is something we should all aspire to with our dogs. And if you can't, this is a perfect opportunity to start. Okay. So the breed standard describes the ideal dog in every breed, all 200 breeds and all the miscellaneous and all the FSS breeds all have breed standards. And I liked my favorite story about breed standards. You know, dog shows started with, shockingly enough, bird dogs. And the fun part about this is that generally speaking, my sort of vision of how this worked is that a bunch of guys were out having a competition with their bird dogs, their pointers or their setters or what have you. And they all tromped back to the bar at the end of the day and toasted each other's success. And Tom, Dick and Harry were sitting around talking about their dogs. And Tom and Dick got into a big argument about whose dog was the prettiest, right? Like, you know, mine get the most birds, but mine's the prettiest. And so they started having a big old riot about that. And so they called down Harry from the end of the bar and said, Harry, which one's the prettiest? And that was your first dog show judge, right? But the good news is that that didn't last very long. Thank God. And so it's a little better now. And one of the things that they did is they developed breed standards. They didn't used to exist back in the day. Written standards of the ideal dog, the perfect dog. P.S., P.S., there are no perfect dogs. I know, I know. My dog is not perfect. Your dog is not perfect. There are no perfect dogs. And that's hard to hear, but that's a fact. The breed standard is the ideal. We are all seeking to achieve for our dogs. So the way that this happened, often by committee, but generally speaking, as Tom, Dick and Harry are sitting around the bar arguing about which one's the prettiest dog, they start scribbling on a bar napkin, right? What makes the dog, what does the dog look like that does the best job at its job? So the dog that got the most birds, the dog that retrieved the most birds, the dog that brought back the most birds, this is part of the description of the breed. If you have a toy dog, it's the dog that is the most adorable. How do we describe the dog that is the best companion that makes us feel happy? How do we describe the dog that brought in the sheep and didn't lose any? How do we describe the dog that guarded the castle, right? Whatever it is, whatever our dog's breed's job was, there was an ideal dog of that breed that was used as sort of somebody's avatar, right? If you wanna say that for the mid-1800s that described what the best dog looked like, that's what a breed standard is. And that is what we are supposed to be breeding our dogs to. We are not supposed to be breeding our dogs to whoever won the most ribbons or whoever's got the most ads in the magazine. That's not really actually what we're supposed to be doing. We're supposed to be breeding our dogs to the breed standard. And so knowing what the breed standard is, understanding how it applies to our dogs, and then using that understanding to make breeding decisions, that's what makes great dog breeders. So everybody out there, a couple dozen of you, anybody want to start with their breed or I'll start with mine? Who's got a breed? Pop it in the comments. Do you wanna start with your breed or we'll start with wirehairs? Is that okay? All right, wirehairs it is. Anybody wants to pop in, just put a comment, we'll go from there. So German wirehair pointers. Every breed standard, wirehairs no different, have a general description, right? Talks about basically overall what that dog looks like. Oh, I see a whole bunch of you coming in, excellent. Oh, I'm very excited. So it'll give a general description and then it will start describing sort of the major component parts of the dog. It'll be the head, we'll talk about the eyes and ears and the nose and all of those things, the stop, the shape of the head, all that. Then it will talk about the neck and forequarters and all of that assembly. And then it'll talk about the body, the hole, the ribbing, all of those things. And then it will talk about the rear assembly and then it will talk about movement. We'll talk about temperament. Usually in the general appearance section will be a part about the breed's history and what it was designed to do. And so that Ingrid, I love that. Ingrid's going to the Golden Retriever National, I'm so jealous. Have a great time Ingrid. Okay, so as we go through those breed standards, it's going to talk about what makes our breed unique and one of my favorite, favorite, favorite quotes of all time. I'd have to go back and double check, but I wanna say it was Alva Rosenberg, which was a very famous judge back in the day. And the quote was that you should be able to tell what breed it is by the light of the moon in silhouette on a picket fence. Okay, so if I look at a dog in silhouette, color it black, I should know by its make and shape what breed it is. And that's what the breed standard is giving you a word vision, right? So there's a picture, it's worth a thousand words. Well, the breed standard is those thousand words. Okay, all right, so we have some suggestions here. We've got black Russian Terrier, Labrador, Bernese Mountain Dog, Cocker Spaniel, Doberman, Japanese Chin, Cotons, oh my gosh, Melissa, you're gonna have to drop a link to Cotons because I've never actually read their standards. So there you go. Right, Ingrid, I understand that the dog's not gonna be on a picket fence. The idea is to understand what the outline and the make and shape of the dog is, right? And that's what the breed standard is to give us. Okay, so while I'm looking up some of these in order, I'm gonna start with the black Russian Terrier. I'm gonna come up with some bits and pieces of that standard. I want all you guys to go to your standards and I want you to pick out or type for me in the comments your favorite line, just what is the essence of the breed that's described in your breed standard, all right? So for German wire haired pointers, my favorite line that I think speaks so much to what the breed is says that the breed must have correct coat to be of correct type. In other words, if type is what makes my breed, it's breed, not a German short haired pointer, not a wire haired pointing graphon. In order to be a German wire haired pointer, it has to have the correct coat. That's a line from the standard. That isn't me making that up. This isn't wishful thinking. That is actually written in the standard. And so that informs my breeding decisions. And yes, I've shown dogs that didn't have the perfect coat, but I always knew that my goal was to reach perfection. And we dog breeders are nothing if not optimists. And we think that we might actually get to perfection someday. And so tell me what's your goal? What's your dream? How do we get to the best thing? Okay, Melissa's gonna give me Trish. Yes, robust, large balanced, agile, powerful dog, Black Russian, absolutely. Okay, Melissa, I'm gonna go click on the coton so I can go read that. Meanwhile, tell me, Melissa, what is your essence of the breed for the coton? Tell me something from the breed standard that really tells you what the coton is. And while I'm doing Cocker's head type, yes. And that is talking about head type in Cocker spaniels. And I think that's really, really important as a discussion piece because heads in many breeds define the difference. What is the difference between an American Cocker spaniel and an English Cocker spaniel? What's the first difference? Head type. English Springer spaniel and Welsh Springer spaniel. Difference? Head type, right? So, I mean, there's other differences, clearly there's color and there's some make and shape issues, but head type defines so many of our breeds and that hits on a really, really important point when she talks about head type. Kathleen, quote me something from the chin standard, the one about the eyes because I think that's really important talking about their expression. And again, for those of you who haven't, please read Solving the Mysteries of Breed type by Richard Beauchamp. It is amazing and it talks about type versus style. Breed type is what makes your breed its breed. The difference between a German wire haired pointer and a wire haired pointing graphon is breed type. What makes a wire hair a wire hair and a graphon a graphon? What makes a chin not an English toy spaniel? For example, what makes a black Russian terrier? Not a Bouvier. Okay, these are breed type. Within breed type, there are styles. So, one person may have a fancier style of German wire hair pointer and I have maybe a more rugged style of German wire hair pointer, right? So that exists throughout all breeds. Yes, Kathleen, the lively aristocratic toy dog with distinctive oriental expression. And that I think is so important. It's the reverse three and it talks about something about the appearance of astonishment in the expression that I think is so critical. And Trish, when we're talking about the black Russian, I think about some of the pieces knowing a little bit of history of the breed, I think about some of the pieces that distinguish it as its individual breed, not as one of its component pieces. Does that make sense? Like it's not a giant schnauzer and it's not a Bouvier and it's not a this. It is clearly a black Russian terrier. So what are some of those things that you think about, Trish, when you're thinking about the black Russian? Yes, that wide apart, large, round, dark in color, small amount of white, small amount of white. Now I've had this emphasize to me to give the look of astonishment, which I just think is such a beautiful description when we're talking about such an elegant little breed as the Japanese chin. And each of our breeds has some element to it that is like that. And Trish, yes, on the black Russians, I was gonna go with the head. That head, I have friends with black Russians. I've evaluated a number of leaders of black Russian terrier puppies. Their heads are incredible. They're like this wide. When I say built like a brick shithouse, I mean like really, you know? And I think that that is so important when we talk about these different breeds. Okay, oh, Zhwadaviv. Now I have seen that in the Coton, Melissa. And I think that is so lovely because it talks about their smile. And I just love that. Amber, which breed are we talking about that is dirty and balanced? Oh, Bernie's Mountain Dog. Nice, yes, yes, strong and agile, excellent. So Melissa, I'm looking at a coton in the ring and say, for example, give me some really good points that I'm gonna look at. Now I know the difference, but give us some points to look at between a coton and say a beijon, right? Some similar types of breeds behind them all, that sort of thing. So I know the coton has straight hair versus the clearly coats of the beijon that are scissored. The coton is long and straight. Yep, there you go. Cotton-like coat, exactly. Tail, upward hook, revealing the distinguishing outline of the coton. I just love, I love learning about different breeds. The coton is a breed I literally know nothing about. So this is like an amazing part. I get to learn for an hour, you guys. This is so cool. Okay, Wendy Malinois. So we're talking about one of the four Belgian breeds, right? Belgian Lakinois, Belgian Malinois, Belgian Sheepdog, otherwise known as Groendal, Belgian Turverine. And so the distinction of the Malinois, it is the short-coded version of those four, developed each in their own region. And in many countries, the breed is shown as one breed versus here in the U.S. where it's shown as four. And tell me if I'm wrong about that, Wendy. Excellent, light springy movement, Tanya. Absolutely pootily. You guys remember the conversation I had with Brian before he passed away? So fabulous talking about pootily and what that actually means. And it's such a great example of breed-specific characteristics that are drawn from the standard. And that pootily piece, part of it is the light springy movement, the effortless movement, all of that. Isabel, there are no dumb questions, number one. No dumb questions. Trying to follow and do this assignment to learn, trying to find the breed standard of men pins comes up with a UK standard. Yeah, it is different. So, oh, pro tip, here's a great tip. Here is my tip for finding breed standards. And as someone who judges a lot of breeds like in puppy groups or things like that that I don't necessarily know the standard for, I go to Google and I put in miniature, pencher, breed standard. And it will come up with a breed standard through AKC generally in a PDF form. And that's what you wanna look at. There are differences in many cases between breed standards in the United Kingdom, in FCI, in Canada even, to the US. So it's important that you know what you're working with. But yes, go find your men pin in the breed standard. One of the important pieces of the miniature pencher is the hackney movement. And so you'll wanna go in there and find in movement where it talks about the very, very characteristic lift and hackney movement of the miniature pencher. And yes, Ingrid, Multiman Parvo is absolutely pug dog. It's so pug dog. It's a lot of dog in a small package. And that is very much the case. Okay, Hannah Doberman. Neck proudly carried well muscled and dry, well arched with nape of neck widening gradually toward the body. That's such an interesting piece that you pulled from the standard because so much of the Doberman's outline is that beautiful neck set into the shoulder coming from the occipit all the way down that flowing line is absolutely characteristic and part of what makes the picture for a Doberman. So I think that's really interesting job. Capacious. Okay, Melissa, you're talking about again the katon and specifically a capacious muzzle. So this is another part of reading breed standards. I find fun, we get to practice our vocabulary. So capacious means with a lot of room, right? And so I'm curious, Melissa, maybe you can drop in the comments. Oh, good job on the men pen standard. Thank you to Natalie. There you go, Isabel. There's your men pen standard in the chat. So back to you, Melissa, back to the cotons. What is the purpose to having a capacious, a lot of room in the muzzle, right? What is that about for the coton? I would love to know more about that. Yes. Okay, so Trish has a really cool question. She read the Bouvier standard and it talks about the Bouvier single tracking, which black Russians should do as well, but Bouvier are supposed to be square and black Russians are slightly longer than tall. How can they both single track? That's a super great question. I have to tell you that most truly square, square breeds that you talk about are more liable to double track, right? They have a harder time converging underneath, but my suggestion would be that the Bouvier, though square, still converges with the mechanics to do it in the front assembly and matching rear assembly, like it allows them to get underneath. They're not a pug that doesn't single track, right? The pug and the bulldog and some of these dogs that are so wide, Bouvier isn't as wide. Black Russians, oops, sorry guys. I get really excited and I talk with my hands and I hit the mic. Black Russians are a lot whiter, generally speaking, than Bouvier. Black Russians are just, everything about them is broad. Their head is broad, their shoulders are broad, even their hips are broad, everything about them. And so, though they have more length of body, they're able to get their legs underneath them because of the width that goes with it mechanically speaking. I'm guessing, but that would fit with what I know about the two breeds. Okay, here we go, Wendy. Elegant appearance, exceedingly proud courage of head and neck. Sorry, it didn't mean to beat the mic, I was talking with my hands. I'm not Italian, but sometimes. So Wendy, talk to me a little bit about the Malinois. Sorry, talk about the Malinois and talk about, I understand that it's basically one breed standard with four coat varieties, essentially in other countries. What about the Malinois stands out to you as being somewhat or slightly different? Is there any description in the standard that makes them more Malinois than Turvern other than the coat, for example? I know that generally speaking, what I see, and I don't know if you can help me support this in the standard, the Malinois heads that I see are rarely as narrow and refined as the Turvern and the Belgian sheepdog heads. Is there any place that it speaks to that in the breed standard that helps us make specific understanding of what is absolutely unique about the Malinois in addition to coat, anything you wanna add to that. Sorry, Trish, didn't mean to whack the mic. Okay, so as you're reading the Menpin standard, Isabel, I hope you're able to find the part that talks about movement because it is really characteristic of the breed and calls to mind what you would think of when watching a hackney pony. And that is really cool to watch an excellent Minister Pinscher do its thing. It is really beautiful. While we're on the topic of menpens and while we're waiting to hear back from a couple people, Melissa, I really am excited to hear on the cotons, the capacious. Pinschers, did you guys know? Did you listen to the German Pinscher episode if you haven't, you should. I did not know until I did that episode that German Pinschers and standard schnauzers essentially are the same breed with two different coat type. And in Germany, there's actually a schnauzer Pinscher club and that the German Pinscher is the foundation. I knew this part, the German Pinscher is the foundation, both for the Menpin and for the Doberman. Standard Pinscher is the foundation for both the giant and the miniature schnauzer, but that they were the same breed originally with two different coat varieties blew my mind. Literally, mind blunt. So that's the cool thing that you find out when you do a podcast. Hackney like action, that's exactly right, Isabel. Plains or head described slightly differently between the standards. Okay, so Wendy, do me a favor, see if you can't find those head planes described in the standard for the Malinois because I think that is really, really interesting. And one of the ways that I learn about breeds, and I know that you guys do as well as you're at the dog show, is that we can do a comparison, compare and contrast, for example. So I really, really like to do a comparison between German wirehead pointers, wirehead pointing graphons, and then if you throw in Spannoni to make three bearded wire coated breeds, and with Brown Spannoni all the same basic color, it's really, really, really instructive to read the breed standards for each of them and understand what are the distinctions and similarities. There you go, Sandy. So let's think about that for a minute while people are going through some of their other stuff. So if you talk about a German wirehead pointer, the breed standard calls for parallel planes, right? So the head's on the same basic plane. The skull is level, the muzzle's level, and they're both long, long, deep, strong, right? So it's basically a brick on brick, it's a rectangle, the head is. And then when you look at the Grafane standard, the standard calls for the head to be slightly rounded over the back skull, the shorter muzzle, shorter skull, more of a square appearance. It's not exactly, but that's kind of the idea. And then you go to the Spannoni standard and it calls for divergent planes. Literally in the judges education, they say that the planes of the head from the side should look like the roof of a house, basically, right? This goes this way, this goes this way. And it goes from the stock. And so that is a very different and very distinct head type. So this goes back to the commenter above that brought up head type in Cocker Spaniels, head shape in Cocker Spaniels. Difference between an American Cocker and an English Cocker is the head, same sort of concept. Hi, lurker. Sherry, welcome. We're super excited you're here. And I know we have a few Bloodhound people around and about. I had a lot of opportunity to spend a great deal of time with a Bloodhound breeder. Some of my earliest involvement in dogs was helping her with her dogs. I went there a lot when I was a kid. Sometimes it was a little icky at my house so I'd go hang out with her. So I adore Bloodhounds and had the opportunity to learn from a really great breeder. So welcome, super glad you're here. Oh, Melissa, this is awesome. Melissa's absolutely the short hair person. I love this description of the short hair. Built like a proper hunter, short back but standing over a lot of ground, right? Yes, exactly, Melissa. That's exactly what I was talking about. The hunter horse is that, and what I believe they're getting at, Melissa, correct me if you think I'm wrong, but when you have a short back, it's this part right here, right? It's not all the way from the set on of the neck to the tail set. It's basically from the withers to the hip bones that is the actual back, not the whole top line. Sorry, oh my gosh, you guys. Pocked myself into a dry throat. And so when you have that dog that's built with a compact back from the withers to the hip bones and has a lot of good angulation that sets the front assembly well underneath it and then matches the rear assembly behind it, that dog stands over significantly more ground than its body. And I think that that is a pretty amazing picture drawn by the standard. And I think that that is one of my very favorite pieces in any breed standard. I also love, oh gosh, somebody will tell me if I get this wrong, the smooth fox terrier or the wire fox terrier? One of the fox terriers, I think it's the smooth, no, I think it's the wire on the tiptoe of expectation, talking about how the dog is always up and waiting for something and just their basic personality. I just think that that is such a beautiful vision. So, all right you guys, what's some more ideas that we can think of when we're talking about the various and sundry, that is the wire, that's what I thought Stacey. When we are talking about various and sundry, fabulous pieces in breed standards. Come on you guys, there's more. All right, so where were we, I got distracted. There was a squirrel, just so you guys know there was a squirrel. So, Isabel, when they talk about the hackney action in the miniature pencher, talk about what the description, what does that actually say? Because having seen it, it's always really amazing to see it described and then see it in real life. Let's see what this says, it's here, gate. The four legs and hind legs move parallel with feet turning neither in or out. Hackney like action is a high stepping, reaching free and easy gate in which the front leg moves straight forward and in front of the body and the foot bends at the wrist. The dog drives smoothly and strongly from the rear, the head and tail are carried high. So, that's what I'm talking about when we talk about each of these standards has a section on gate and front and head and what have you. That's a really great, yep, there you go. That is a really, really great description of what you see when the men pen moves. And so, what I always encourage people is to really read the standard and then go back and read it again. Sandy, sometimes there are not squirrels but you just caused me to have a squirrel because I was having a thing and now I'm sidetracked. So, I'll just say it. Breathe standards and your understanding of them evolve over time. And so, as a perfect example of this, I did an exhibitor education opportunity at my national a few years back and the test that I handed out to start the course, start the class was a test on the breathe standard. And there were a lot of people in that room who had been very successful in the show ring who failed that test. Just gonna tell you that. And that was sort of heartbreaking. And so, it has, it affected me pretty strongly that I really feel so much that people need to understand their breathe standard early on before they get really involved in breeding dogs that may or may not win. And if you are showing dogs and you're showing dogs for the first time, understanding what the breathe standard actually says and then, most importantly, being able to actually apply it to your dog. And so, if you read the part about the hackney light gate in the miniature pincher standard and the dog just moves forward and doesn't break in a hackneyed gate, that's wrong, but you have to be able to see that and understand why your dog is not successful because it is not meeting the breathe standard, right? We're at a dog show judging dogs for breeding stock against the written standard for each breed. We're not judging popularity contests. We're not judging, everybody gets a ripping contest. Our job as dog judges is supposed to be to identify the dog in front of us that most closely meets the written breathe standard. And that to me is a pretty big deal. So, for my two cents for what it's worth. Okay, Wendy, all right, talking about the turv skull. Skull and muzzle measuring from the top of equal length, right, flattened, right. Stop is moderate, top line is parallel to the top one in the skull, muzzle moderately pointed. So, that's the turv, Wendy. How does that compare to the malinois, which tends to, from what I have seen, have a wider back skull? Can we talk about that at all? Renee, oh, here we go. Oh, I missed it, Wendy. Sorry, my bad. Skull and muzzle are very slight bias in favor of the muzzle. Top skull, medium width. There we go. In proportion with the length of the head. Headplanes are parallel. Exceptal crust, brow ridges and zygomatic arches are not prominent. Stop is moderate. Okay, so top of the skull, flat rather than round, right. Width is approximately the same as but not wider than the length. Okay, so it's really interesting looking at the difference between the two standards, Wendy, and talking about turvs and malinois, knowing for a fact that these are supposed to be the same breeds with different hair, basically. You can see why you're getting broader skulls in the malinois than in the turvern, based on the language talking about the heads, which I think is really, really interesting. Okay, Trish, picture of black Russian in motion. Standard says the black Russian terrier covers a lot of ground through strong range of the forelegs and drive of the hindquarters. Right, and so I think I'd be curious to see, but then I read the article. Okay, thanks, good. Okay, so the standard says covers a lot of ground through strong reach of the forelegs and drive of the hindquarters. That does not necessarily correlate to what I would think of as extreme reach and drive, like what you would see in, for example, a German shepherd dog, a Brittany, some of these, right, Wendy, absolutely. Some of these breeds, Trish, that are what we think of as extreme reach and drive. To me, covers a lot of ground means that the front leg, when it reaches forward, the toes are going to come past the end of its nose. They're not gonna go clear up here, but the toes will be past the dog's nose and that the rear legs, when they drive back, are going to drive far enough back that you'll see the pad of the rear foot when they drive, when they're going away and that they will meet together in the middle, underneath the dog balancing its weight, right? Everything about dogs is balanced. We want the two front and rear feet at a trot to meet directly underneath in that W shape that we've seen, right? That supports the dog's body weight at its most ideal. So I don't think of black Russians as extreme reach and drive. I think of them as powerful. I think about their job that what they were supposed to do. And to me, it gives them a very different carriage and presence than any of the dogs that we traditionally think of as having tremendous reach and drive. To me, a black Russian moves with power, with purpose and with strength and it is very grounded, right? So there's nothing lofty about a black Russian when it moves. When that dog's going around, if it's going at a trot, if your hair doesn't raise up a little bit on the back of your neck, it's not doing it right. That's how I think about black Russians and I love the breed, but I think of them as power. And I think that that is what we see when we read the standard when we understand the history of the breed is we understand the power and purpose that they move with. If that helps, if not, let me know and I can wax philosophics more. Yeah, Wendy, sorry about that. Yes, it's just interesting to me, again, with such a slight difference in the standard, how dramatic that appears when you look at the actual dogs in front of you. So I think that is a fascinating thing. Okay, Renee, I lost track of you. Renee, I'm hoping maybe you are another bloodhound person. Neither Coralson with man or beast sounds like a bloodhound lying to me. Is that correct, Renee? So see, we do have two bloodhound people in here. Okay, all right Trish, and by all means, keep looking, keep watching. I would be more than happy to see if I can find some videos of the breed. Really, it is such an impressive breed to watch in action. So anyway, let me know if you have more questions on that. All right, who else? Okay, Renee, excellent, bloodhounds. Neither Coralson with man nor beast. Yes, and I think one of the things, yep, yep, I think that that's important because they had such a big job and temperament was such a big piece of it. Right, and I mean, I'm not gonna lie, I've seen a few bloodhounds over the years that didn't meet the standard on that point. But if they're to do their job well, that temperament has got to be an enormous piece of it. And another piece that I think is absolutely fascinating talking about bloodhounds, they have always been a man trailing breed, right? To my understanding, they were not used for hunting at all. They were always used as a man trailing breed. And the name bloodhound over the years was thought by some in the general public to be somehow that they trailed blood, right? That they were aggressive, that there was something about it and that it was instead that they were of nobility, of the blood. And so that was one of my fascinating little bloodhound tidbits that I had from years ago in bloodhound land. If any of you have ever read the books by Virginia Lanier named the House on Bloodhound Lane that whole series, there was a photograph at the back of one of the books of the Masterpiece Litter. The Masterpiece Litter was one that I helped raise for the breeder whose name was Judy Suley. And it was used, that photograph was used in the book and the story of those dogs were absolutely a huge part of that series of books. So anyway, yes, the blooded hound exactly, Renee. Ingrid, that is a fabulous question. Would English teachers be delighted or cringe? I think it sort of depends on the standard. Some of them are hideous, hideous, hideous, hideous compilations of word salad. And some of them are really elegant. Like if no one has ever read the greyhound standard, he absolutely must. It is just a thing of beauty to read. So I think that depends. Poachers on the estates of Peralty. Okay, good, I remember that. No one trails two dogs at the same time. No, God no. Having been drug by 150 pounds worth of bloodhound on a track, no, but he does that. That's crazy. Okay, what else we got? We got 10 more minutes. Who's got questions for me? I am often horrified. Yeah, I try not to be horrified, but there's days. But I do think actually that it's really, really interesting when we look through breed standards and we read some of these descriptions and try to understand the etiology, right? The actual language issues that brought these particular standards to bear. Sandy says that reading the blood dog standard made my brain hurt. Yes, and Sandy, you are making actually a very oft made point, which is that the bloodhound, or the blood, sorry, brain, that the bulldog is one of the most challenging breeds to judge as a result of what you are observing about the breed standards. I believe that my best understanding of bulldogs came when I did the interview on the breed for the podcast. And it was really the first time I had actually, Jay Sirian is a bulldog handler here in the Northwest. And it was the first time I actually sort of got it. And they talk about the layback of the head and the U shaped under jaw and all of these pieces to them like, okay, that makes sense to me. And so I do think that one of the things that we can do as we learn more about our breeds, read our breed standards is then take that, if you will, book knowledge and take it out into the real world and talk to long time breeders and talk to more than one. Because everybody has a different interpretation or a different understanding. That's why not all the dogs look the same. We all take a piece of the breed standard and emphasize it. Mine is X, yours is Y. That's fine as long as we're working within the breed standard, I have no problem with that. That's where that style piece comes in that Richard Beauchamp talks about. And so one breeder emphasizes the divergent planes and another breeder emphasizes the break in the top line and another breeder emphasizes the movement in a breed. Whatever it is, right? So I do think that we have to take our understanding of the standard, look at dogs and talk to people about how they understand it and how they apply it. And the more we talk and the more we ask questions, the more we learn. Okay, Trish. Reconciling comments that say at least. Oh, I hate that, hate that. I'm not gonna lie, I do hate that too. The bottom of line of the chest extends to the elbows or below and is not less than 50% of the dog's height measured from the withers. No, I actually think that balances the dog because, okay, always remember our geometry is built in hardwired into our brains. It's why we want to see squareer dogs in breeds that are supposed to be long backed, things like that. And so balance and symmetry, 50%, not less than 50% of the dog's height. So if the dog is, see if I can get it all in the camera here, this tall and this much of it is chest, then we're getting to an exaggeration. And so what I take away from that line, the bottom line of the chest extends to the elbows or below, okay, and is not less than 50% of the dog's height. What that tells me is that the body of the dog, this big, deep, robust body should not be shallow. And if I see a black Russian and I put my hands to the elbow and that's all hair, then that dog does not meet the standard. It does not tell me that the deeper the chest is, the better it is. Does that make sense? So for someone who takes away from this that more is better and that it has to be below the elbows and it has to be not less than 50%, nowhere in that does it say it should be 80% or 60% even, or even 55%, right? It just should not be less than 50%. So that's how I read that. And to me, I don't have a contradiction from that. That really makes, that makes sense to me and it makes sense in a balanced way if that helps. Well, Annette, thank you. I am glad that you have learned and I'm hoping that you will continue to learn and share the love with everybody else. And I see my friend KQ there. Hey, KQ, so good to hear from you. Okay, anybody else before we wind up for the evening? Okay, shout out to Troupanian, the sponsor of our pure pep talk, couldn't do it without him. Huge, huge, huge shout out to our newest and most favorite and most beloved social media producer, Natalie Thurman, literally, and I do mean actually literally, couldn't do this without her. For those of you who stumbled in on the, can I just say shit shows that we had the first couple of times I tried to do this by myself, can say thank you, Natalie, we really appreciate you. Everybody, don't forget, you've got a link to the patrons, sign up up top in these comments, go click a button, throw away a coffee and get some cool text messages, some fun stuff to talk about and looking forward to ways that we can use that for people to get more opportunities to win cool stuff. Oh yeah, did I mention that? There's gonna be chances for you guys to win stuff if you have the pep talk. So anyway, let's see what else. Also, I'm going forward, anybody who is going to be at the dog shows in the last Utah, South Jordan, Utah, I think, on the 16, 17, 18 of September, I will be there with the pure dog talk booth and banner and teaching an adult and junior's handling class one night and also doing a live recording of a podcast on applied structure and movement. So that'll be really fun. Looking forward to having lots of people there to talk to about that and share with about that. And I think I'm also judging some stuff. So I'll see you guys there. Additionally, those of you who are in the Northwest, the Monroe Kennel Club dog show in November, I wanna say 19 and 20, I will be at that dog show and also doing the applied structure and movement seminar there. So those are my two live, live in person live opportunities through the rest of the year. And so I really look forward to seeing everybody there. And I'm really, really glad you guys came and joined us tonight. And so thank you. Thank you so much for participating and don't forget to share the love, send everybody on and have them join us. So good night, everybody. Thanks for joining.