 Good morning and welcome to the 28th meeting in 2023 of the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee. I remind all members and witnesses to ensure that their devices are on silent and that all notifications are turned off during the meeting and we've received apologies from Miles Briggs and Pam Gosol and Stephanie Callaghan will be joining us online this morning. The first item on our agenda today is to decide whether to take item 3 in private. Are members agreed? We're all agreed. Thank you. The next item on our agenda today is to take evidence on the council tax variation for unoccupied dwellings Scotland amendment regulations 2023 and we're joined online by Timothy Douglas, who's the head of policy and campaigns at Property Mark, Fergus Walker, who's the revenue and benefits manager at our Garland Bute Council, Gareth Waterson, who's the corporate director of Enterprise and Sustainable Regeneration at Orkney Islands Council and in the room we're joined by Ali Kay, who is the representative from Living Rent and Councillor Bill Lubbin, who's the convener from Highland Council and we'll try to direct all our questions to a specific witness initially but if you'd like to come in please indicate to myself or the clerks and also if you're online you can indicate that you want to come in by typing R in the chat function also you don't need to operate your microphones we'll do all of that tech stuff for you so you can focus on what you want to say and I'm going to start with a couple of general questions and this one the first one actually is for our three council participants I'd like to be interested hear your sense of the pattern of second home ownership in your council area and what impacts they have in local communities so maybe I'll start with Bill and then I'll go to Fergus and then Gareth. Well certainly there are positive and negative impacts from second homes there's no doubt about that second homes provide a general increase in tourism income and that's really important especially in places like Highlands because tourism is our main industry but also because it's significant problems because it reduces the availability of housing particularly affordable housing so that you get many businesses for example who no longer can can provide accommodation for the staff because there is none but the market tends to be swamped by by second homeowners also by short-term lets et cetera et cetera so that is a significant problem so that's some of the advantages and disadvantages. Thanks very much Fergus your perspective. Yeah very much mirror what Helen council said there in terms of impact on the communities we've we've announced a housing emergency system we have got some significant issues with the lack of available accommodation specifically some of our smaller communities on the islands for example where the number of second homes and long term empty properties can be way over 25 percent of the overall properties available on these islands which gives significant challenges in terms of the sort of viability of local communities and it's not only a lack of accommodation for indigenous communities but it also reduces the ability to maintain lifeline services such as fire, police, education and healthcare due to a lack of suitable accommodation and the same effect can be felt by the commercial companies which struggle to accommodate the workforce when there's a lack of available accommodation on these in these places it does have a significant impact it does need to balance with the impact on tourism in the economy tourism is obviously very very important does and it does second homes do generate extra income for local economies so it does need to balance there but you know we would very much support the double chart of second homes in these or at least having the powers to do that in our local economies. Thanks very much and Gareth the view from ordinary. Thanks Gerry I'm very similar to previous two speakers I think another couple of things is second homes tend to be in the lower banded properties about 35 percent of our second homes are in band A so those are the houses that the people trying to get onto the housing ladder would probably be going for so you've got that as a dimension and the other thing is the you know the aging population that we have in particularly our island areas or our islands outlying islands and the lack of accommodation for younger people or families in there to sustain you know the care and support for the for the community is another another aspect to add in but you know I agree with everything else that's been said previously great thanks very much that that details are quite helpful thank you I'm not going to ask actually the same question to Timothy and Ailey so just what your views are around the current pattern of second home ownership and the effects of local communities in general so go to you online Timothy thank you very much and thank you for the opportunity to give evidence today I think from from property marks perspective and our our members as have been said we'll acknowledge you know the the positive and the negative benefits of second home ownership and the balance needs to be struck in terms of people being able to buy a second home but the need and the needs of tourism but also the needs of supply and and adequate housing for people in local communities I think you know from our point of view even if you look at the Scottish Government's own figures on second homes I think apart from you know last year and 2020 you know there's been a a steady decline in second home ownership according to those figures and whilst yes these measures are discretionary will be discretionary for local councils it doesn't tackle the crux of the problem and the crux of the problem is supply and that supply of housing for council housing affordable housing homes for people to rent and homes for people first time buyers to buy but also has as has been mentioned for the elderly population right sizing as well and I think that gets us on to the point about taxation now these properties second homes have already been taxed certainly in the last 12 months since December last year six percent six percent additional dwelling supplement so whilst yes this is discretionary I think we would question a property mark the you know the use of that six percent ADS money that the Scottish Government has gathered have gained and how that is being disseminated to local councils to tackle this problem and the wider housing problem. Thanks for that I just follow up a question for you so it's great that you recognise there needs to be a balance and I just wonder if you have an awareness of particular areas of concentration from your data from your members around particular areas in Scotland that have that pressure of more second homes and that impact. Yeah it's not something specifically that we have data on but anecdotally we know from talking to members in Scotland and across the UK it does tend to be the pressure in you know tourist hotspots where that is the pressure for local communities trying to get on on the housing ladder and there is you know whether that's a reality or perception that second homes are being sat empty and not utilised when I think there's a perception from local communities that they could be used but fundamentally that comes back to supply you know we're not building enough homes and we're not building enough homes across different tenures to give people those options. Okay great thanks very that's that's useful I'm going to bring in Ailey and then I see the council Robin you've indicated you want to come back in so Ailey. Hi thank you convener for inviting me to speak today I think the points that I was going to make have been well covered by others but obviously a Sylvan rents position that we're in a national housing crisis and I we welcome the government's effort to increase housing availability. I think when we talk about supply though it's important to consider time frames and interrogate the type of tenure and incentivising use of empty homes and second properties is a lot quicker of a turnaround than building council houses it's also typically cheaper for councils to renovate and bring back empty homes into council use than it is to build new council houses and it's often greener as well just in terms of the effect that second homes and empty homes and secondary let's have on supply of as discussed it increases the demand in local areas and also increases rents as well as local property prices so by removing some second homes and secondary let's from the market overall tends to have a positive effect for both tenants and home owners. Great thanks very much Bill you want to come back in? Yeah obviously I can only speak for Highland but in Highland for example there are approximately 4,000 second homes who pay council tax and nationally I think the figure is only 24,000 and we have a tiny proportion of Scotland's overall population so in Highland it can be in some areas an absolutely massive problem and particularly my own ward of Bainicomstrat's Bay there's a chronic shortage of housing and part of the chronic shortage of housing is caused by second homes and short-term let's and the balance is the one thing I would agree with the balance needs to be redressed it's not about eliminating second homes entirely it's about just shifting the balance. Okay thanks and Fergus you wanted to come back in? A lot of the comments being made but I'd just like to say in terms of the trends for Highland butte we are not seeing the reduced number of second homes in the last few years certainly since Covid the number of second homes has increased again back to the level it was at in 2017 so it was declining but since Covid it's gone back up again so we are seeing an increase now in our second homes and it is putting a lot more pressure on us in terms of availability of housing and the provision of services but I do agree with some of the comments made by Mr Douglas I think that there needs to be a wider consideration I think this legislation has definitely stepped in the right direction but the housing system is complex and we need to consider things holistically and in a gael and butte we would be keen to look at maybe the bit more ambitious and have some more wide-ranging considerations of the issue of housing stock availability and how it's negatively negatively affected by the impact of second homes and long-term empty properties okay but I mean so yeah it's um that last position of account here great thank you very much I'm I see you want to come in but I'm going to move on and maybe well because we've got a lot of questions and we might cover that or you can tuck your response in thanks very much so this is a question again for our councils council representatives and it's going back in back in time pre Covid so what I understand is that in 2017 councils gained power to reduce the council tax discount on second homes and I'd be interested to hear what impact the change had on the number of second homes in your area bill almost nothing to be perfectly honest I think it didn't change very much at all the increase in basically the will we introduce the 100% charge and that barely dented any impact that second homes would have and I think that's you know collection rates are still well above 99% so I don't think in that particular case it's had any impact at all okay thanks Gareth what about in Orkney again no discernible difference through the reduction in the discount in Orkney I think the some of the things that are in this regard worked against us has been scoring very highly in the best place to live in the UK on those types of things that attracts quite a lot of people to either retire to Orkney which is another issue or to come and get a second home and you know that that was the sort of position that we didn't really see any discernible difference okay thanks and Fergus how's it in our gallan bute how was it we did we did see a when we got the ability to increase the charge if you like or remove the 10% discount and increase the charge to effectively the same rate of cancer tax we did see a small reduction in the number of second home properties going from around 3400 in our gallan bute down to about 3100 so there was a movement down the way over a number of years but as I said before since Covid that has significantly increased again back up back up we're now up at 3234 properties okay thanks and I'm going to stick with you and just I'll talk another question in a bit to hear if there's been discussion in our gallan bute in the area about whether you'll charge a premium for second homes and what process you'll undertake to make final decisions and have you got an estimate of the likely income from the increase yes so um but there has been discussions in our gallan but already about charging a premium on second homes and we will be there is a proposal going to council actually in the 23rd of November later on this week that says we will if the legislation regulations come through we will we do propose to charge 100% extra on on second homes should we do that um and given our the number of second homes in our gallan bute we I reckon we'll be building about 4.9 million pounds in the additional council tax next year um and very prudently I'm suggesting that we'll collect about 4.2 million pounds of that that's really quite probably quite low to be honest but I've just used and in the suggestion to council I've used the prudent rate of an 85% collection rate which is the same that we use that we come to recover on long-term vector properties although to be perfectly honest I'm pretty sure we'll collect more than that so um that's the position of our gallan bute at the moment okay thanks very much very wise to be prudent on those numbers how about in Highland we reckon that the impact will be somewhere financial between between four and five million pounds depending on the collection rate and other things obviously but we would expect even quite prudently the collection rate to be much higher than the the 80 odd percent that's been mentioned we would expect it to be well into the high 90s all right and you're going to go for the 100% we we would be yeah great okay and and Gareth in Orkney i'm not a paper drafted yet but based on our record of increasing council tax last year by 10% i think the council will be minded to apply the full 100% if it can and that would if there are no changes in the numbers of properties give us about 550 000 of additional council tax revenue okay great thank you very much for that it's really helpful not going to bring in willy coffee thanks very much good morning everyone i would just like to get your views on whether you think the proposal will actually affect change here whether second home owners will in fact change the way they use their their property and i'd like to to ask a view around the table if i could start with you perhaps bill well i think i think it will make a change you know at the moment i think 29 of those who you have second homes claim that they will then sell their property you know whether that's the case or not is is obviously will be down to individual circumstances but that could be part of the the good things that we would see is that maybe these properties will go back into the general housing market and that really would need to be applauded alternatively if if they retain them and then we we have the increased income that will also assist so so really i think that's um a good thing i love in a bad thing thanks bill eily um yeah i think it will obviously living rent would like to see this delivered with another program that would specifically target people who are looking to sell second properties either into council buyback schemes or encouraging them to put them on the long-term rental market obviously um when we talk about policies like this like the statement of purpose for this is to increase housing supply but i think we also should consider that it's about changing behaviour as well in that we should really be focusing and ensuring and a policy like this would do that that everyone has a home to live in before people can own second properties thank you thank you any hands up in the online will actually bring about the change that we hope it may do in the policy to ask our colleagues in the islands tim thank you very much just just waiting that what i think from our point of view we surveyed our member agents in scotland on this issue around charging council tax premium on top of regular council tax rates for second homes i mean 75% either disagreed or strongly disagreed with the proposal and i think you know when we then sort of ask them around the you know those who disagreed with on the impact on the on the impact of the proposals would have you know those three things that that came out of it you know agents just didn't think it would increase the sale of second homes it wouldn't lead to you know an increase in homeowners and then there was concern around you know landlords moving out of the short term lettings industry and reduction in demand for buying homes to rent so in that sense at proptomart you know we're struggling to see the effects of this property now there are you know precedent and things to look at the welsh government for example earlier this year in april yes we're still only roughly nine months on from that but they increase the ability for local authorities to increase council tax premiums of second homes and long-term empty property to 300% now again you know 79% of our member agents in wales didn't see that as an effective method mechanism for tackling the housing issues there and actually yes i acknowledge it's early days but we haven't seen you know we've only seen a minority of local authorities choosing to adopt that higher premium on second home so i think that is something for both the Scottish government and you know the committee to monitor alongside the you know the decisions in in in scotland and i think finally just to pick up on what the previous speak was saying yeah i think there's there's probably certainly say there's more you know there's other measures how local councils looking at leasing schemes of these properties are they engaging with the second home owners if they're being left for a long time you know why you know engage with them on a on a leasing scheme we've also had the licensing of short-term lets has come in and other governments across the UK are now looking at at that following what scotland have done and i think the other area finally is probably on business rates and and and and obviously the disparity there in terms of if it's a if it's a holiday let and and the sort of let for a minimum 70 days versus you know only lived in for 25 days on the council tax it's just whether that should have been looked into in more detail to balance things out okay thanks for that for us for us wants to come in yeah it's just to say that and again we do think this is a step in the right direction these new draft regulations and we do think it'll have an impact although we think there are properties to be more done and i know that next year that may be considered an increase in the council tax but up to 300% just like they're doing in Wales at the moment obviously some learning from Wales would be really useful to see whether what the impact is in the first year that they've had these powers and we don't have that yet so we'll see where that goes but as i said before there needs to be a bit a bigger a wider consideration of some of the other issues that affect the availability of housing stocks such as plan information and also possibly also in relation to sort of the ability to maybe place title burdens on a new residential property which is not specifically applied for as a second home or holiday we think these sorts of powers would be really useful if we could maybe have some powers around about these areas to stop people converting properties that possibly should be lived in as a domestic dwelling to potentially second homes or holidays that's possibly something we're furthering down the line hopefully increase the availability of housing supply locally but we certainly think this is a step in the right direction. Gareth you want to come in. By the point that councillor Lobban was making there i think if the funding that was raised was going towards the reinvestment into into housing you know we've been doing a couple of initiatives with island housing development trusts and putting some assistance towards them which they are using to supplement island and rural housing fund funding to allow the development trust on the islands to build houses in their local area. We don't have a huge waiting list but that's for the for social housing in those areas but that's perhaps because there is very little social housing there and so we don't we don't have that as a metric but the communities certainly believe there is real demand in the in their areas and so if that if the funding that's raised through this were to be directed to reinvestment in housing rather than just going into council tax coffers i think that would be something that i would think could make a real difference. Thanks very much for that Gareth. Thanks very much for that everybody you were kind of anticipating my next questions anyway about the Welsh experience but in terms of potential other incentives tim you led in a few examples there of leasing perhaps do you see other mechanisms being used alongside this measure or instead of this measure and maybe a view from around the panel would be helpful to to balance that so back to you tim. Yes thank you well i think fundamentally you know what i think there needs to be some greater research really into the the causes behind second home ownership and you know what leads to homes becoming empty for long term and their usage and that will obviously you know vary across the country so i don't think we know enough about you know the causes and then they'll see that leads to policies that at one size fits all i mean i think you know as i said the majority of our members disagree that you know higher tax premium should be applied those who did agree 50% said the tax premium should be at 50% roughly around 37% said it should be 100% and 12% should should be at 200% so i think there's probably there an acknowledgement that this is you know the direction of travel in terms of policy but as i say it does seem you know an additional tax perhaps on wealth considering that if you bought a second home you've already paid an additional dwelling supplement which leads into our point around the redistribution of that money but i do think you know a licensing scheme and potentially should be a leasing scheme so it should be should be looked at into by by local authorities as an alternative obviously we've been talking a lot about supply and i think it's really important that we interrogate um what type of supply and ideally we'd want to see that council homes are predominantly the outcome of this so i think what would be needed alongside this is the delivery of greater powers to local authorities to buy back these properties whether that's through financial assistance from the Scottish Government but also that changes to the planning system are considered as well i know we've touched on what the Welsh Government are doing and i imagine we will again but they alongside their policy programme for this they delivered changes changes to the local planning system or sorry gave the local authorities the power to change local their planning system in that second homes would also require planning permission and that creates a specific class use so it's better and easier to track things like taxes i guess what i'm trying to get at is that when we're talking about second homes what we're covering is a very broad topic here and there's three distinct uses so there's empty homes there's second homes at chocolatey homes and then there's secondary lets and i think some consideration or a sense of discretion into how the three different property types actually affect local supply is important because obviously empty homes um a very the approach to that and how to incentivise use for that is obviously very different to say getting reducing the number of secondary lengths or holiday homes as well yeah bill any view in this other incentives or other mechanisms i think one of the things we could do is we could remove the short term the small business bonus scheme for domestic type properties the small business bonus scheme is a great idea it really incentivises small businesses startups etc but the impact it has on on domestic properties is quite out of proportion to the benefit because what can happen is that um if you have a short term let or if you have a second home and all of a sudden you move it to a short term let then you can apply for a small business bonus scheme if your income is below a certain level which means that you pay neither council tax nor non-domestic rates and that i don't think that was ever the intention of the policy and it's a it's a glitch in the policy that really should be removed thanks well up bill any other views on that issue about alternatives absolutely brilliant small business bonus scheme um that really should not be applicable for self-cating units and non-domestic rates he's absolutely spot on i think with with that comment and just coming back to something that that that mr waterson says from wortney i wouldn't necessarily i think he touched and maybe ring fence in some of this income for for affordable housing i think in a get on view we wouldn't really be supportive of that we're really keen that we have the discretion to use that additional funds in any way that we see fit i think the reason for that really is that we're already ring fence and over two million pounds worth of council tax income every year for affordable housing and the issues about creating or building affordable homes is more than just about the money and also we'd be really keen to to use the funds to support essential services infrastructure development and community projects as well so we wouldn't be supportive of ring fence and these additional funds and just to to reconfirm i really support what council lobin said around about the use of self-catering units and non-domestic rates and hopefully not applying the small business bonus scheme to that because i do think that was the policy around it but that was to support genuinely small businesses and not necessarily effectively self-catering units which have been let out for for sort of housing and tourism thanks for this envy also on line timothy wanted to come back to me you want to come back there great thank you well it was just to pick up a point one of the previous speaker said in the room i think it is important to define second homes and i think as you know housing has become more complex with the addition of of you know holiday less and the increase in short-term less we do governments do need to look at you know some form of typology of second home ownership and i'm going to mention it again it goes back to that additional dwelling supplement that actually we need to meet the huge demand crisis that we've got in the private rented sector yet they are still paying you know a housing provider in the private sector a landlord purchasing a buy to let property is being taxed the same as a second homeowner where potentially that property is not being used as we're discussing today so i think alongside that that research into the causes of second home ownership and empty homes we do need to look at a typology of that second home ownership that actually i think would lead to more progressive policies certainly around lbt t and additional dwelling supplement that would support demand in the private sector and perhaps squash demand in the second home area where it's not necessarily needed or would would tackle in the challenges today colleagues you mentioned the welsh experience such as such as it is so far tim you introduced some commentary around the in your submission about the experience in Wales of yening to add to that of yening we could say from our experience about what's happening in Wales that could help us ship and drive this policy i think only that it's um it's early days you know we're not seeing we haven't seen or we've only seen a minority of local authorities choosing to adopt the higher premium so i don't know whether that is more of a question for the councils themselves in terms of the administration the appetite and whether they see the benefits so i think from that point of view it's early days at this stage okay thanks tim healy yeah i think one of the other things that um with the welsh government what they've done is they've also increased the days to let before short-term let is eligible for non-domestic rates and as bill touched on there's so many short-term lets across the country which don't pay anything in either council in non-domestic rates because of the short small business relief scheme so andy whiteman the former msp for lothian actually did a report back in 2017 sorry i don't have any neuro statistics but because of the relief scheme in edinburgh so these numbers just pertain to edinburgh that before the relief was granted the short-term let on the non-domestic rates valuation would have paid 8 million 8.5 million roughly in rates but because of the short sorry the small business rates relief scheme the total that edinburgh city council received for a year was 3.7 million so that's a difference of 4.8 million thereabouts so this is a massive loss of revenue and i think what the welsh government have done is that they've increased the days actually available to let to i think 252 so that because it's based on um the valuation rate right in that you're covering most properties and ensuring that they're paying either council tax or non-domestic rates so most aren't eligible for a small business rates relief um does does that make sense yeah so you're encompassing all into the local taxation policy rather than giving you know having this kind of break in the middle where a number of short secondary let's aren't paying anything okay that's really helpful really thank you very much for that just one follow-up question for me arianne i'm just just i'm curious about whether we have any figures but probably this one's for tim but have we got any figures tim on the percentage occupation of a second home the average occupation per year of a second home maybe council colleagues might have a figure on that but what's the if you've got a house and you live in it it's generally 100% occupation isn't it what is it for a second home i think that's very difficult we certainly don't have approximate figures on that and i think that is the i think that's the million dollar question and i think that leads into any policy discussion in trying to to tackle the issue of you know short term let's or holiday let's as well how long is a short you know short term let how short is a short term so no it's not something we have data and information on but um would be interesting to know okay anybody else any idea what the percentage occupation is okay i'll leave it that we might follow that oh sorry gareth from mortney want to come in yeah i think i think it's perhaps slightly anecdotal but if you if you consider what people have got second homes and their annual leave entitlements are if they're taking most of their holiday leave and living in their second home they're they're going to struggle to get more you know the 25 days is probably quite ambitious for them to even achieve so moving it beyond that is probably going to be very very difficult for somebody that's you know a working person with a second home you know in Orkney particularly where they've got to travel from elsewhere to come to Orkney you know that's you know four you know four four weeks and you've done it but you probably don't have any you know other leave available so you know for people with second homes that have retired they can do it much more easily but anybody that's working so it was just that sort of thing that i think a lot of our second homes here are barely the 25 days and and that's probably about as much as they're occupied in the year okay thanks gareth i guess you wanted to come in thank you yeah just agree with what gareth said really i don't have an official figure if you like for occupancy of second homes but i kind of agree with what gareth said there and just to come back to the point on wales all i know about what's happening in wales at the moment is also the local authorities down there have got the power to charge up to 300 premium on second homes all i know is from a newspaper report because it's so early days but i think when it was the council that charged the highest premium at 150 so it didn't go anywhere near the 300 and i think that early indications are that it is moving some second homes back on to the the property market if you like in terms of maybe being for sale or let but i think the the issue is that still i think the the owners are still looking for high high prices for these second homes i suppose in that area and they're maybe not still accessible as affordable sort of properties if you like so that's the sort of the only early information that i've had from wales at the moment i don't know if that helps but i mean it's certainly not official it's just something i've read it's okay that's it i'm going to bring in mark griffin thanks give me a good morning i'm really interested in the discussion we've been having already on non-domestic rates and the small business relief scheme how that might impact on the income generated by councils if this goes through and you know all three council reps have talked about the modelling of income they might receive from this and i wonder if you're concerned at all about behaviour change of second home owners, switching to short-term lets and then being eligible for small business rate relief and that having an impact on the income that you generate at all and i wonder if any of you have modelled that into your calculation you've come to bill first well one thing we've done the exact modelling but it's a really big question i think there is a possibility that that some people may and but we've no figures on how many may or may not but it is a really really big question and it's something that we really need to get to the bottom of and i think by using some process to remove the the small business rates relief i think would make a big difference thanks bill and any council college online that is a really good question that the model that we've done so far is just assuming that there's no no change in behaviour but i know for a fact that that's a it's there will be some changes in that behaviour and incidentally at the moment that the law is that the properties in non-demestic rates to to be a self-catering unit in non-demestic rates they have to be actually let for 70 days or advertised for let for 140 days and our assessor at Weston-Bartonshire and Argyllin butte valuation joint board has been conducting a review of all self-catering units in Argyllin butte over 2200 of them over and they've been doing this review for a number of months and we are seeing a number of properties failing that test and coming out of non-demestic rates and on to council tax as either second homes or long-term empty properties so we've seen a bit of an increase already and they haven't concluded the review yet so I'm suspecting in the short term to see our second home numbers go up but when we start to charge 100 premium on second homes from next year I would see potentially them going back down because people will be arguing that these properties have been actually let for 70 days so yeah it's obviously yeah we might see a change in behaviour it's difficult to anticipate exactly what that will look in terms of numbers and I understand that the recent consultation in the Scottish Government were asking for a for information around about what councils might want to see in terms of maybe increasing the number of actual days to let before a property come off a council tax and go back on to rates or just qualify the self-catering unit for non-demestic rates so yeah it's totally up for debate and obviously we've been keen to for these numbers to be pushed up a bit but so it's harder for people to qualify for non-demestic rates but yeah it's going to be difficult that is a potentially a little loophole there that that might want to look to try and close by increasing these these figures in the right side and gareth you want to come into change in behaviour as fergus has just outlined there just like we'll see a change in some of the properties being sold as people decide that it's expensive to have a a second home that they're not making use of others will say well they want to hold on to it how can we do this more cost effectively and if we can shift it into non-demestic rates we will pay nothing and you know that's you know clearly something that all three councils are concerned about in the small business bonus scheme that perhaps a lot of those short term let properties could come across across the council tax if we're not going to revise the small business bonus scheme and perhaps with a discount you know but bringing everything into council tax and in my view would be something that could be could be done to everybody's to council's advantage and to you know the tax collected and then you know the general funding of councils so bill you want to come back in and also fergus yeah you know every time we modify the the charge to the council tax for properties there's always a risk that there'll be a wholesale shift to non-domestic rates but last time when when we changed it didn't it didn't materialise so maybe it will this time because of the the amount of change but it certainly didn't last time so there are many people I would imagine who will want to keep their their property rather than use it as a as a short term let bergus yeah sorry just to reflect again on behavioural change and back in April 2014 we introduced a double charge on long-term empty properties in Argyll and Bute when the first of April 2014 and there was behavioural change then and I think sometimes I think it's for avoidance again a lot of people who had long-term empty properties were telling us that they're staying in these properties for more than 25 days a year and therefore they were shifting over at the second homes and therefore not getting the double charge again that's behavioural change and it's difficult to stop without having somebody sitting on a doorstep 24-7 looking at what's happening in these properties it's really is difficult to to mitigate that behavioural change but we did see a movement back then and I think we're likely to see a bit of a movement again but hopefully that'll be small numbers okay thanks for that and fergus you've touched on the next point I wanted to make in that the government have consulted on a wider package they've consulted on increasing their levels for long-term empty homes have consulted on changing the thresholds around short-term lets and I just wanted to ask that the whole panel whether you're happy that this is introduced in isolation on its own rather than that holistic package that the government have consulted on which could potentially stop some of the behaviour change and unintended consequences that we've spoken about maybe come to Ellie first yeah I think I would agree with you that a wider package of policy does need to be delivered I think one of the problems is that particularly with short-term lets and non-domestic rates is I think fergus touched on this is how do we actually know that these properties are let out for the time of length that they say they are because I know for a fact that there's lots of reputable people who operate secondary lets but there's also some people who aren't and they may as well they can go in and book their own property for a certain amount of days and then submit that as evidence and then counsel the bookings as a way to get past the to get on to non-domestic rates and then apply for the small business rates relief so I think as I mentioned earlier I know that we've the Scottish government have introduced both licensing with the ability for local authorities to apply for control areas which would allow them to use planning but I think in the case of second homes whether it be holiday homes or actually secondary lets there should be consideration again given to local authorities to have a specific class use to better just at least so we have a sense of typology of these properties but also to ensure that we can uh yeah but to better check them I hope that makes sense yeah thank you Bill but I think it would be really helpful to consider legislative and policy changes in an entire thing like this together but obviously we appreciate that that's maybe not possible as far as you know the Scottish government legislation is concerned but certainly to deal with that holistically I think would be an improvement rather than dealing it piecemeal in various different smaller bits and pieces but um I think that maybe that's something for for your decision rather than ours thank you Timothy you want to come in yes please thank you very much um and Mark yeah just picking up on that I think a holistic approach is always welcome but I think the missing piece potentially of the jigsaw or the area that the Scottish government haven't looked at and should shine a light on is a review into the impact of all taxes impacting private landlords because I think that potentially is part of the puzzle because that will then lead on to perhaps the impact of where landlords have left the private sector and gone to the short term lets market which again impacts in this area on on second home so I think we've long said that the Scottish government should now do a review of all taxes impacting private landlords and the knock on impact that that has had certainly since the ads supplement and the impact on short term lets as well I think that would be a welcome piece of the puzzle in terms of um information gathering in this area and Fergus you want to come into really good that the Scottish government are considering implementing or giving us the powers to charge double council tax on second homes next year it brings it brings it up to the same level of the the increase council tax we charge on long term entity properties it'll make that sort of side of things a lot easier to administer for us it means that that avoidance between somebody that's currently got a long term entity home and telling us that they're living in it for 25 days a year when clearly they aren't then that stops that loop there so I think I see this as an evolution I think this is a really good start by giving us these powers next year if they come to fruition that'd be really good for us and I do think after that then yeah we need to probably have a more holistic look at all the other measures that might really help us get a handle on this and get a bit more control over a sort of a second home's long term entity lets the rates side on the self catering units as well yeah I think a more holistic review later on would be great but I think in the interim I think this is a really good measure a template for next year thanks thanks mark I'm going to bring in Murray McNair thank you very good morning panel um someone's one that's the consultation thought the proposal was unfair to second homeowners because of the use of local services less and residents and many have obviously already paid additional dwelling supplement to anything you've touched on this quite a bit already but would you like to add any additional comments do you think the proposal provides a fair balance between the general interest and second owners and any additional comments that would be great I know a lot of it's already covered not too much to to to add um yeah I think what you know the feedback we get from from members that it's it's it's not an effective um policy area um and you know and as I've said that there's other things that that that should be um looked at so nothing further sort of to add at this stage thank you anyone else want to come on on that bill well certainly we already charge basically 200 per cent council tax on on long-term empty properties so I see little difference in that between um holiday homes rather than long-term empty properties and council tax is is not direct taxation for whatever services we provide you know I don't have any kids at school I still pay council tax so I find that part of the argument to be a bit superfluous you know it's it's it's effectively local taxation for the provision of a total range of services and and I would also I would disagree with what was said said much earlier about ring fencing because I think as far as the verity house agreement is concerned you have to if we are allowed to raise this extra taxation then you have to allow councils to decide how to spend it in their area or how much of it to raise so I think that's really quite important I totally understand that absolutely convener my next question has been covered so okay back to yourself thanks very much now I'm going to bring in Stephanie Callaghan who's joining us online thank you very much convener and I suppose just going back to Bill there you've you've you've just said there already that you know you don't believe that money should be ring fenced and I think that was something as well that somebody else touched on earlier there too so I'm just wondering I'm wondering what others thoughts are there around any restrictions around additional revenues that are raised and how that should be used and I'm also wondering about how is any additional income from reducing the council tax discounts in second home being used and whether that's actually helped increase the supply of affordable housing I'm not sure that I quite got the the question so sorry that's okay so I'm quite interested in whether other people agree that actually those additional money shouldn't be ring fenced and I'm interested in whether any income from reducing the council tax discounts on second homes already on whether that's helped increase affordable housing I think basically in in some cases it has because obviously we we already have to ring fence for land banking the first 40 percent of the charge and we set an original legislation so I think that subsequent legislation should not apply ring fencing and should allow the councils more options as to to what how we can deliver more affordable housing or what we should use the money for thank you for I guess you want to come in yes I just agree with council lobin 100 percent obviously we do we do ring fence over two million pounds a year for the provision of affordable housing that money goes into our strategic housing fund directly and that's that's the that's the value of the constructs we collect between the difference of the 50 percent discount on second homes long-term property properties in the 10 percent that goes into the strategic housing fund and the ring fence for affordable housing but the issue about providing affordable housing is more than just about money it's not as simple as just a create more funds to allow that to happen so and I think as I've said as I've touched on before we've got huge issues in terms of our small local communities not just a lack of accommodation from indigenous communities but reducing the ability to maintain lifeline services such as fire police education and health really really important in these communities and I think we should have the absolute flexibility as per the very house agreement to to use these additional funds in any way that we see possible to support these communities across the whole of Argyllum but so we would definitely not support ring ffencing these monies okay uh Stephanie no one else wants to come in on that one if you want to move on that's fine then so I suppose about the the regulations providing a grace period interest of that in that area as well which if there's a purchase by a new owner within six months for renovations repairs been undertaken so i'm wondering if they agree with that grace period and do they feel that it will encourage empty home owners to bring their property back into use i agree with that proposal i think that anything we can do to bring properties back into use you know in fact irrespective of their use it needs to be encouraged but certainly we would really encourage anyone to to bring the property back into use and and we appreciate the fact that if you take over a property which is really not a habitable standard then we need to allow you some sort of grace period whereby it allows you to invest the the money to bring it up to a standard and hopefully then bring it into a permanently occupied dwelling so Phil i suppose just right on that point there do you feel the six months is adequate or do you feel there should be a bit more flexibility around that what are your thoughts again i think there should be more flexibility if six months might be perfectly adequate if you're just upgrading a property but if the property is semi derelict as some of them are then it may take a bit longer on that so i think council should be allowed discretion to decide almost case by case as to whether they should allow additional time or not that's great thank you gareth and then furgus thanks i think that it's a it's a very welcome thing to have the grace period we've got some islands in ornay where there are properties that are needing done up but it's very very difficult to get a contractor at the moment to go to the island on the ornay mainland we've got probably an overheated building market and for example north ronaldsy with a fairly small number of properties getting a contractor there are no there are no building contractors on north ronaldsy but getting a contractor to give up you know work on the ornay mainland where they're you know able to just you know leave leave home go to work to go out to north ronaldsy where they've got to stay over is virtually impossible at the moment and therefore i think maximum discretion for the local authority on a case by case basis would be quite important because it may take somebody there two or three years to persuade a contractor and to come up with the extra money that it's going to cost them to get somebody to come out and do up a house furgus and then tim the fee yes we definitely support this in terms of for long time into properties we definitely support this basic base period and we have been operating that way ourselves for a number of years since introducing the double charge on long time into properties we've put in place our own our own policy range about that and we have given a grace period for new owners so at the moment in terms of our policy a new owner would get six months exemption from sorry sorry six months 50 percent discount from council tax to renovate followed by a 10 percent discount for another six months if it's under repair and then we've got a discretion to to award another 12 months at 10 percent discount for people who are renovating their properties as well so we give up to two years for a new owner to bring a property back into use before we would hit them with a double charge and the reason for that is multiple i suppose the policies evolved over time we have previously lost an appeal that evaluates the appeal committee and we've actually won the appeal because the decision that we made at the time followed the regulations so that we made no mistake there but the panel made a very good recommendation that we ease our policy to allow more time for people to bring these properties back into use because some of them are in quite bad state of repair so that's why we've moved to two years basically before somebody would be affected by the double charge and really another issue for us is as we're really struggling for planners at the moment we're struggling to attract professional planners to the organisation so because of that sometimes our planning process can take longer than it should to get permission through so that's another good reason why we should be delaying the double charge on on these properties and also a lot of our guideline view is in a conservation area so there's loads and loads of listed buildings and loads of complications so that's why we have our policies evolved and we allowed up to two years a discount effectively some 50% discount then another 18 months after so six months 50% up to 18 months a 10% discount and then a potential double charge if it's not brought back into use so we've got that currently as a policy and that's why we think a grace period for empty homes is a really good thing to build into the the regulations but i absolutely would not support it for second homes okay thanks that's kind of you're clearly pointing to the need for the top topography this kind of nuanced approach to all these different properties timothy you wanted to come in yes uh thank you i think you know we would also welcome um the the six month grace period is certainly sensible i think we would then want to advance this policy on in terms of um you know decreasing the amount of empty properties and i think certainly from conversations with our members you know some sort of grant funding and certainly the Welsh government have implemented a £50 million grant fund to get empty homes back into use i think there could also be a separate fund for first time buyers to access in terms of um doing up and getting empty homes um back into use and i think that then plays into how more progressive can we be in terms of incentives you know if someone takes on an empty homes renovates it and fundamentally gets it back on the market into use for the needs of the local community and that local authority area you know what incentive should be should we be offering them in terms of a rebate on lbt t perhaps or council tax or these other taxes and charges that that they um you know have incurred and will incur okay thanks for that um Stephanie do you have any more questions yes just just a final question for me convener i'm interested in the panel's views and how the draft legislation actually links into the Scottish Government's long-term housing aims in asset out in the housing to 2040 anyone want to come in on that bill well you know and again i can only speak for highland but you know we're looking to build we need to build 14 000 new homes in the next 20 years you know of a variety of of different classes you know something like 30 for for general market housing nearly 50 for for social rent and 21 20 odd percent for i suppose assisted rent so things like that and and ways that we can provide housing anything that that can assist has got to be a good idea you know when you've got something like 9 000 people in the housing and transfer list it's in a small place like highland not geographically population wise it's absolutely critical that we can think of some innovations that increase the supply of housing thanks for that anybody else really yeah so just to echo what i said earlier that obviously we need increased supply but it's absolutely prudent that we interrogate that form of supply there's research that's come out of the london school of economics and as i understand it pertains to england but i think the sentiment can obviously pertain to scotland that if we're looking to bring back empty homes says properties that people buy rather than council homes it will actually further enforce the advantages accumulated by homeowners versus tenants and it's really important that if we are going to take this holistic approach to deliver better supply that it is social homes because there's a chronic lack of supplies of social homes in scotland as well as an over reliance of the private rented sector again i just wanted to say more about the general purpose of this policy in increasing and incentivising use we know that council tax is particularly regressive for a number of reasons i don't think i'm sure people in this room know why but ultimately if we want best use of property then we need a look to replace the council tax and on domestic rate system ideally with something like a land value tax because the reality is council tax ultimately doesn't incentivise best use and it as the Scottish government aimed to fulfil the housing strategy 2040 we do really need to consider quite radical changes to the broader housing market and how land is best used as well thanks very much for that do you want to say a little bit about why lvt would be would be better than council tax in ndr yeah so um from a tenants perspective it council tax ultimately functions as a local property tax the tenant doesn't own a property and i understand you know it is for local services but when we when there are cuts to things like council tax it's working class people who face those cuts the most in the instance of second homes and not paying premiums its second homes take away from local services therefore the people like tenants and working class people tend to face those cuts the most lvt as it is designed is and there's a number of ways in which you can administer it and again i'm no tax expert i just have an interest in it um that it would be a taxation on the land and not the property and therefore it incentivises use based on yeah the way that is administered and obviously it wouldn't come at the cost of tenants or working class people either because it would be for landowners or property owners yeah okay i can send over further detail on that if you'd like thank you yeah anybody else want to come in on Stephanie's initial question around the the connection to the Scottish Government's long term housing aims of housing to 2040 i mean in a way we've kind of talked around it haven't we a bit but just have an opportunity for anyone to say anything we've got a bit of time in hand okay um i just want to cut i'll bring them out i'm just going to come back okay hang on all right lots of hands went out there okay i just want to pick up i'm going to come in and ask a question um around the grant funding i thought that was interesting uh timothy you bring that up then i saw ailey and then i'll bring in mark okay so all right so that's interesting yeah so timothy you brought in this idea that uh yes the grace period but then to move the agenda on around uh empty homes and you had this suggestion of grant funding and that wales is doing that 50 million pound um grants to get empty homes um back up and then also uh also you had this idea of something for a first time buyer fund but i wonder maybe this isn't a question for you timothy it's a question for uh the councillors i wonder what you think about that idea uh of money going to support the empty homes um people who've bought the empty homes and what i'm i i'm interested in and i don't know if this be possible legally uh yet um we might need to have legislation but if there was something that yes there was a grant fund but the um somehow there's a that incentivises the properties to be brought back into use but that somehow the local authority gets a percentage of that so yes there's money a grant is invested but then local authorities get something back out of the money made from those homes just wondered about that because i feel like we need to kind of rather than just giving away our public money all the time we need to think about how do we incentivise what we want to have happen but actually see uh returns coming to local authorities just on the hoof there bill what do you think i think it's a really good idea i think it shouldn't just be a gift from of public funds for someone to bring a dwelling back into use but i think if we're going to do any incentivisation it has to be to bring homes back into permanent use it's not something that we should be doing to allow someone to buy a holiday rental in the middle of nowhere not all that's standing is is the gable end so this must be a process to bring homes into permanent use and if you end up with the councils for example owning a golden share so that if later on the property is sold then that's that's something maybe we should think about but um i think that requires quite a lot of thought yeah certainly and then there's also the idea of the rural housing burden that's being used quite a lot as well which could be an interesting approach as well anybody else got any thoughts on that ailey yeah just to echo what bill said i think obviously i'm ensuring that it is for permanent use but particularly for social housing um just specifically to say if we're going to say if the Scottish Scottish Government intend to allow people to renovate and stuff that is not for secondary lets um there is a report that was given to Edinburgh city council planning committee of june of this year um so is the economic impact of residential and short-term let properties and this was during the consideration of the licensing scheme and also the control zone in that it states the gross value added the gva effects are greater for residential uses than short-term lets across all property types and areas and i really think things like the gva and community wealth building should also be considered with the implementation of these policies to ensure that the money remains within the local community and it is productive as well okay mark thanks community um if we're talking about this change affecting behaviors and potentially leading to second home owners selling then i would hope councils might be in a position to buy any of those homes being put on the market and timothy has talked about additional dwelling supplement applying to private landlords but i wonder if council colleagues have any views on additional dwelling supplement still applying to councils and whether that's something you would like to see removed so that you could support any buyback programmes to increase affordable housing supply social housing in your own local authority areas and medical to build first it's not something that we've actually actively considered but you know it's certainly it's an idea that that is worth progressing and certainly um you know i presume other councils are the same as mine that we do actually do buy houses on the open market these days and would certainly be prepared to to consider purchasing homes that if they were affordable and there were the right properties in the right places that we would consider purchasing them from from people who are trying to divest themselves of a holiday home in which of you on having to pay additional dwelling supplement as a local authority seems like it almost a circular nature of tax than something that you should be exempt from oh i am i 100% agree with the fact that we should be completely exempt from from the supplement i don't think there's any doubt about that thank you okay garras wants to come in on that one and then committee i'll bring you in later garras i think that um the housing associations are exempt from lbtt so they would not be paying the additional dwelling supplement and so we've sort of tended to try and encourage the housing association or it has influenced a number of purchases that the housing association have pursued so because they're a charity and i think that they're there for an exempt so i think that local authorities were also made exempt probably under the bit like the hra has special fat status if it had lbtt status as well i think that would that would be particularly helpful great thanks and timothy you wanted to come back oh sorry hang on a minute timothy okay yeah okay yeah we'll just do that way timothy come on in and then fergus you want to come back on the aid yes yes um thank you i think just to pick up on the the grant um um funding um you know there's also for local authorities whether there should be you know a speedier process for obtaining you know compulsory purchase orders i think as the last speaker alluded to in order to purchase or as i said earlier um lease those properties so um that they're into to use but the other point i just wanted to to to make uh was that in the leveling up and regeneration act it's gone through um westminster within there there's a policy proposal that could be uh mirroed or looked at and developed in the sense of that legislation will give um council powers um to replace a requirement on landlords to find tenants for a long-term vacant commercial property uh in towns and city centers so whether you know across the country that policy area could be looked at in more detail and translated into to empty homes so you're almost you know local authorities have the more powers to compel owners to either you know living it rent it out or put it on the market for sale after a certain amount of time i do you think that area has been looked at in the commercial property space and whether that warrants more development more thinking in empty homes as well okay yeah that's an interesting uh um uh piece of policy to pursue and uh furgus furgus wanted to come in yep furgus yeah just on the ads and the the bills for councils to purchase second homes uh i totally agree with the the comments from both highland and orney councils uh more or maybe to add is that maybe if we can combine some of that with more flexible funding from the more homes division uh which would allow the purchase of some of the second homes in key locations which may come onto the market uh this would allow the opportunity to prevent these homes from subsequently being used as anything other than principal homes so really that that would be really positive and i think if you don't mind if i go back to the comment the question about the grant funding uh as well is that okay um so yeah i think that's a great thing as well i think it's a really good idea uh and i think if that was uh available also maybe with powers for local authorities to maybe require planning permission when the when the property's been developed and brought back into use uh we'd like maybe to have the sort of powers and planning uh so that any change in use of that residential property from a primary dwelling you know if we could have plan permission to check that then that would be a good serious consideration uh it would stop it maybe we could go back on it as another second home going forward so we really want that to be a primary residence uh another another control might be that there could be a an ability to place title burdens on new residential properties which is not specifically applied for as a second home or holiday again i think that those sorts of changes would be really useful all around about the the the grant scheme that we talked about okay great thanks lots lots of things to to um pursue there i think um well that brings us to the end of our questions um i just we do have a little bit of time if anyone feels like we haven't pursued anything um in depth in any way not seeing anybody okay so well thank you very much it's been really helpful to have all your perspective and as i said i think we've unearthed some more areas to to have a look at as well because yeah i think our general objective here is to get more housing for people and to make sure that the priority is that people have a home before people have second homes so next week we're going to be hearing or we're going to be hearing from cosla and the minister for public finance and community wealth building on the regulations at the committee meeting a couple of weeks from now on the 5th of december and we previously agreed to take the next item in private so as that was the last public item on our agenda for today i now close the public part of the meeting