 Yeah, but yeah, that's the worst one. And you just want to get someone from what is here and who. I'm going to try to guess what she's saying. I'm going to say it. I'm going to try to have water from the speaker thing up there. I've had a picture and a whole lot of things. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense because it does. I think that it's really useful because if somebody wants to take a break as well. That's what I use it for. Just that 10-second gap to stop, have a drink and then carry on. When I realize I'm talking at 100 watts an hour, I have to kind of stop, take a look at the water, and then start again at 900 watts an hour. Yeah, I've got some. But last year it just seemed, Karen said it was something like 321. Have time turned up. That's pretty good. Yeah. I don't know what we have. Yeah, definitely. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. He's in nowhere. Yeah. Where? It is. He's not in Newport. He's just outside Newport. So it is like countryside. It's like between Cardiff and Bristol. Just outside Newport. Outside Newport, yeah. Where is that? Somewhere. Very well after breakfast too. I might actually just sit like this, and talk and rock on my belly. It's a bit big. There's a limit, right? One running. Hello. I'm good. Yes, thank you very much. It's a grown man. Well, he looks like that. It's a bit slow. He has to be like ultran. Ultran. No, no, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. Yeah, just gets the specialist. And it's a lot of sense though, all these fixed things, they don't get hard to get around. Yeah. Yeah. They used to have those here before they refurbished, because it was quite, yeah, I had the same problem. They had to get these things. They didn't get all this stuff. No. So, one of the lecturers here had gone and had a row of sort of swivel chairs. Oh. Oh, yes, I did. Yeah. Yeah. So, doing this and all that. Well, right. Yeah, there's that. Hello. See, it's all in the design of a chair. It's just saved collaboration. So, actually, it's a thing they're doing all the time. All right. Hello. Quick for my head up. See what's going on. They all seem to be not going anywhere. So, I think we can make a stop. Okay. So, at Drupal Camp last year, I gave a talk about basic design principles. And the whole talk was very much about contrast and actual specific design things. When I finished the talk, there was a girl there, and she had her hand up straight away. She had a question. She came to the talk for, just so that she could speak to me and ask this question. And the question was, why don't designers use real content? She was a front-end designer, and she gets frustrated because a design comes to her and they haven't considered long titles and all those things. And I gave an answer, which I still think is correct, and that's what I'm going to talk about today. But I kind of have spent this last year kind of fleshing it out a little bit more and thinking about actually why designers might not use real content and maybe realizing that the problem could be that maybe you don't know who designers are and what it is that they actually do in the process of a job. Because I know a lot of agencies that have actually, when it comes to giving the developer or the front-end developer the work to do, the designs are done, you don't have a say in it, it's just make it. And if you don't understand the process that's happened before, then that could cause some confusion on frustrations as to why they've done things the way they have if you don't necessarily understand the reasons. So we're going to look at who a designer is and what design actually means because I think that helps to cover this. So there's lots of different types of designers. In this web world, there's people that call themselves web designers, visual designers, interaction designers, UX designers, content strategists, researchers, Drupal themas, what else is there? There's loads of other things. They just new names pop up all the time. And if you speak to any designer, they'll probably tell you that they specialize in one of these particular things. There's not very many people that are just web designer and can cover the whole broad spectrum of what design does. So I really think that if you can find out your flavor of designer, the person you're working with, and know their strengths, that can really help in your team. I am a hybrid designer. Make that one up yourself. Because I've been a front-end dev longer than I've been a web designer, but I came from a graphic design background. So I understand all the design principles. I've gone through print design and all these things. So I can explain why I've done something and I can give the reasons and the arguments as to why something's why it is. The designer side of things. And I understand Drupal. I understand the complexities, the constraints, and I can see it from that side. So my design kind of comes from what Drupal can do through into the design and not the other way around. Because we've all worked with designers who don't understand Drupal and like to put things in awkward places that cause you weeks of headaches. So there's these labels in the world, and developers are geeky, introverted people, don't like speaking to each other, and can't talk to people whatsoever. And designers are extroverted people who wear dungarees and that choice of clothing, justine, and are free spirited and they just prance around the place and then don't follow the rules and things. Is that a true representation of developers and is that a true representation of designers? No. It's similarities are there, but we all know developers that are loud and bubbly. We all know designers that are quiet shy. So I'm kind of asking as well, because we've been doing this a lot in the Drupal world over the last few years, paying a little bit more respect to people and really realising that people have feelings. And designers have feelings too, you know? And we don't just play with crayons and I think that you're kind of selling your designers short if you say go off and play with your crayons in the corner because it might feel like that's what they're doing because you don't actually understand what it is that they do when they go away and are quiet for ten minutes. So I've kind of got an example of the key skills of a good designer. They're a skilled professional person who are very analytical and they can be persuasive, they're obviously creative and they've got good social skills. In your team of people, would you say that you personally as a developer feel that they're your strengths? So maybe a designer is quite good because you can balance each other out. And a designer has to be able to present their work in a timely manner. They've got to meet these deadlines that clients put on them and they have to be accountable. Why did you put that there because I like it is not good enough. And if a designer ever says that to you, then just keep pushing until they actually give you an answer. And if they haven't given you an answer, it's quite likely you can change what they've done because they haven't been specific and there's no reasons and logic behind it. So if they just like it, then it can be changed. I'll allow that. And if anyone wants to tweet abuse at me in a couple of months time because their designer got angry at you, fine. But yeah, so as I'm saying, design is not self-expression, but what is it? If you ask all the designers in the world what design is, every designer will give a different answer. There's probably two points of view that I want to look at today I might slip into a third because I could get into a bit of a rant about it. But the first is, design is how we communicate what an object does or its function through its shape or form. So we're making a website. It's not a physical thing. It's not a chair or a table. So the website is that object. But how many functions does a website have? Like how many modules does Drupal have? There's not a specific function for a website and the whole point of building this website is to find out the way that we can communicate to others. So what actions, so the design basically has to fulfill the task of saying these are the actions that you can do on this website. You can do your tax return, you can fill out this form, you can buy a plane ticket and the design has to make that clear. The other one is that design is a process we undertake to solve a problem. So how do we make people realise that they can buy a plane ticket? Do you remember when Apple made the phone covers for the phones because the antenna got in the way? So they quickly made an object to fix a problem. It's pretty much the same as that. It's just that websites tangibly be able to touch something makes it a lot easier than a website to explain. So we're being asked to make a website for a reason and that reason is to normally solve a larger organisational problem and the website is obviously going to be only part of that. So there's fundraising and selling things, knowledge sharing. Charities don't get all of their donations through from the website but the website is a very valuable part of it. And when the designer comes in the typical start of the design process is the discovery phase and that's when we'll look at the information and talk to the client, talk to users, talk to the people that edit the website. There's no point in building a website for journalists if they can't upload content on their phone. They can only do it on a desktop and these are journalists that are out in the war zone somewhere. And the biggest part of the discovery phase is actually changing what their problem is, what the client said their problem is into what their problem actually is. When you're on the inside of an organisation your problems can actually seem quite different to the reality of them and that's what the designer's role is. They come in and kind of realise what these problems are, unpick them, get a little bit Charlotte Combs on it and understand the actual thing. Sometimes it's a technical problem and then that's kind of straightforward. You just bring in the heavies, and refix this problem. Or it's an internal, actual processing problem if you've got a really complicated website with panels and crazy Drupal 7 stuff and a heist half turn over because people are interns and they only stay for six months and there's one person that's in charge of the whole thing and she's on maternity leave and there's no handbook on how to use the website and this happens time and time again and nobody understands how to use the website but they had this million pound budget to get it done previously and it's a beautiful website but nobody can use it properly so it's slowly getting degraded. So the problem here is we just need a simpler website to upload our content and that could then become the focus of the project. So we kind of work on that basis of which things can be fixed or should be fixed and which things can we just keep as they were and that works the same through information architecture and coming up with user stories to understand all the different people that will use and edit the website. I like to come up with a motto to keep in my head for whilst I'm working on a project recently I've done a site for climate change people to let the data do the talking was in my head constantly and it's like you're designing something you get all carried away and it's like I'll have a drop down here and I'll have a slighty thing coming here and I'll make it spin round there and then it's like oh hold on because now the data is like this size in my big monitor I definitely need to remove some things and make the data do the talking and that was what goes on in my head and I think that people should actually ask the designer do you have a motto what's the key phrase for this project what's the key goal that we're going to solve here and yeah there's a lot going on and sometimes there's teams of people doing this sometimes it's just one of you and there's lots of meetings that happen in this discovery phase and it actually eats up a lot of the budget hence I used to work in quite a waterfall approach of development where is discovery, development and then front end at the end kind of sticking the two together and there was no budget there ever and it was always come to me and it's like oh you want me to do all of this in two days oh you're cool and the whole point is because they spent a lot of time at the beginning fixing the problem finding out all of these things that are wrong which is wildly different to what the client said at the beginning in their RFP or whatever so yeah one of the first questions that a designer asks or in the kickoff meeting is asks is what does success look like and this is where a designer won't use real content Historically we use flat designs and I'm kind of glad Mark Connery isn't here because he might kind of jump in and start because I never use flat designs and I kind of agree with him like 97% but there is 3% where if your designer is more comfortable designing flat designs and they don't have the time or the inclination to learn code and they can explain to you their intentions then let them do that but I would recommend working with a front-end designer and working closer a lot closer like be there on their face asking all the questions all the time but generally flat designs were used to sell to the client early on you've just spent 3 months making all this discovery work and there's nothing to show for it and the clients bought a website and they want to see the designs so it was a logical step which was now saying is a silly mistake to give people these flat designs and soothe that impatience and kind of please the client early on but it doesn't work it doesn't tell the whole story it doesn't show the interactions the way things are designed it leaves a design open to a lot of interpretation and then this is where I say go check out Mark's talk because he's exposed it so much better and it is completely a whole another talk in itself but you're designing for humans and not for browsers so get on to that so the whole point of these flat designs is that you're selling this vision and if you're not doing flat designs then what do you sell them you can sell them mood boards you can sell them feels we're working on this here's an element that is going to fix this duration problem that you've got it's going to be like this and it's going to move this way and it's going to look like this website in a way that is going to make you feel the same way but it's going to work as fast as this one and as long as you can get the designer to talk to the client about it in that respect then the client's still going to be happy they're going to be soothed enough to see what's going on and keeping clients involved in the process works but this is still only happening in a really short space of time and the client's still going to provide you guys with something to use so they're trying to soothe this return of investment for the client they're trying to get something so that you can actually see what you're doing and the component driven design really kind of helps that and also it helps with your accessibility budgets because if you can sell earlier on that you're building for human beings and not for browsers then you can say a lot you can really focus in on we're building for human beings from the beginning and this is why we need to keep our accessibility budget please don't burn it on something else but the so the kind of things that we've had to think about is mobile first content out component driven design which is accessible meets the business needs of the client so that's like a human centred accessible responsive content out approach that's all going on in the designer's head when they're coming up with these things if they miss the fact that H1 is doesn't quite work on three lines you know just tell them because it's not such a big deal really because they've had to do all of that other stuff first so yeah and they might also be learning HTML and CSS themselves so that's learning to code and do the thing that they already do and kind of keep up with their targets and deadlines and if they're like me and they get lots of land and rabbit hole of like code pen wanting to find a nice animation to just do a little hover effect and you'll never see them for weeks because that was not quite right let's try this one it happens it's not going to not happen so yeah it is understandable that little things like that are going to be forgotten but I think that's where the front end developer comes in and this is why I said when the lady asked the question last year it is down to the front end developer to do this even though they have to do check that we're still on track for the user journeys that the accessibility is fine the performance is okay that it works in all the damn browsers that it's refactored any of the crazy code that I bring in 10 minutes just to get something over to the client because you know it's just CSS that's all the front enders do right just CSS I really hate it when people say that but yeah so the designer and the front ender should completely be talking all the time and the front ender should be talking to the developer all the time I kind of consider a front end developer to be a translator they can talk to the logical brain of a developer and the creative brain of a designer and they can interpret the two you should always be hearing front end devs saying things like the dev says this is quite hard I've seen what they mean could we do it this way and then ideally the designer will go yes that way works just as well make sure this is to that side or over here or big enough text because we need to consider blah blah blah perfect conversation probably never ever happens but it is the kind of conversations that should be having actually does happen it happened to me the other day at work and I felt a little bit excited it's working good old Andy he's an intern so I can mould him teaching him right so if you don't have a front end dev what do you do because you don't have that translator and I think this is actually a key factor if you've got somebody who can talk technical and understand creative then you are combining those two worlds and they do merge better but I don't really understand solar I don't really get half of these things but I understand that I'm making a search engine thing I get it I need a search button but I've sat in rooms with some devs and being a bit like and I've been sat in rooms with some creative people and being like oh my gosh like calm it down and if you two are talking together then you're passionate about your own separate things and not understanding that the other person doesn't understand the words that you're saying so no good designer will understand how complicated it is to do one small thing so show them like just pull the designer over and say this is what you want me to make this is how it comes out of the box to do that it's going to take me 12 hours it's going to take me this long as work we can do this we can use these facets and it does it this way that's already there and I can just change it is that okay to do that a designer will very likely say yes that's fine I didn't know it could do that if I thought that was going to be difficult because they just don't understand the complexity of it and just the same way from the developer's point of view why have you made the design like that why is it using 12 different colours I don't need to use 12 can we just use 6 if the designer can tell you why they've used 12 well I'd like to speak to them but where isn't it so if you need to use 12 colours and there's a reason for it then you have to understand the reason for it is because the user needs it because those 12 different colours represent 12 different sections of the website and have you picked up on that yet no you haven't picked up on it so does the user do it so does it work properly so ask these questions back to your designer because it might be that they haven't quite got something right and you're there to help in that process to make it right you are part of it so this back and forth conversation obviously works very well and like I said earlier if they can't back anything up have that conversation with your designer so your designer is busy doing it's human centred accessible responsive content driven design and you're both talking to each other you're on the right track but there's a few areas that your designer could need help with especially these days with component driven design because they're learning a new thing pattern lab seems to be what everyone's talking about there should have been two talks about it this weekend weekend yeah there should have been two talks about it this weekend and it's a pretty new talk really it's been around for a while but it's really just starting to get the traction going and your designer's got to learn to get to grips with that and there's this guy in pattern lab called Jason now I don't know who Jason is but he's a whole new language my project manager is French and he calls him Jason all the time yeah so Jason and Jason files I've never really had to deal with these before until pattern lab came about and it was a bit like well how do I do this I can just nest all these things in these brackets and it all kind of appears and it kind of looks like this new twig thing I've got to do so it's kind of working but I don't really understand it and for any dev out there it's like just move it over there justine seriously it's that simple so talk and ask them if they're anything they can do with it last year at Brenton United Dan Maul was there and he talked about using Jason and I rolled my eyes and I was like don't give your designers another layer of things to do they're already doing this human driven content design thing let's not give them another language to learn as well I think I was wrong I think that Jason is actually a really good call and getting the whole team involved earlier is something that I'm trying to do a codenigma so we've we've got to the stage when the wireframes the build and then we turn around and go right we need to name these things we need to make these Jason files to make these pattern lab components so we all sit down and we all go through the wireframes and we look at what each element is and how long they are and should this be a feel like a text field do we call it stand first or introduction do we call it this and we together as a team come up with the names for these Jason files so at this point the devil already has a pretty clear idea of what he's building even though he hasn't seen the design because the designer has no idea either well hopefully a little idea so we're already kind of building these we're further along the wireframe structure already because we can we can flesh out a website at this point the designer can the developer can go and get started really they know the fields and things that they need to build and actually I was really lucky I was having a rant in our IRC channel because we were still using IRC and I had definitely worked with a bunch of devs and can we just use Slack? I was having a bit of a rant and I was like I'll be really good if we could just scrape this website that we're rebuilding and like just spit it out in a whole load of Jason files for me because then I can just use real content and then I don't have to make it up and it got made for me like the next day I came to work and the CTO was like I made you a thing I've called it Jason Populate basically you just like load some files and click some buttons because you designers like that and there you go and I'm like and it doesn't really look that much right now it makes me giggle a bit because it's quite fun but basically you just make a whole load of Jason files and fill out the film so we do that in our wireframing session well wire naming session and and then just add a whole load of key pages and normally you can get this list of key pages like example content from the client which is your favourite, the best example of a events page or this page or that page and go in and see well that one's got a long title this one's got a short title take three or four sample pages and add them to this list in Jason Populate it's a YAML file and then fire up some server in something I always get the wrong folder and then have to get someone to fix it for me but fire up the server and then basically I can click anywhere can you just about see where it says meet the team on this side it's a little bit greened out click on that and then click on any of the fields of the JSON file and I can pick whatever part of the message that I want so for the button URL I want to keep the URL and not the wording that's pretty cool that fills that out for me straight away updates in pattern lab and I've got real content so this is a bit of a win and we've released this to our GitLab repository so you can use it if you want to things will break because it's just like the first run of it all obviously contributions and suggestions are welcome but this has actually worked pretty well for me getting a little bit closer to real content because we can start modeling things a lot earlier on because we've got a wider range of sample content to start with so designers do use real content and we're getting somewhere with that and I think that this could be like the missing element of pattern lab like the almost like the nuclear element of it of atomic design because there's the content before the elements so yeah who really are designers me and you you've all got to say have to say the design process doesn't stop when it leaves the designers hand it keeps going you have an opinion use it say it and I definitely think that that's part of it that you should feel empowered to say to your designer I think this is wrong or I don't understand why this works and no designer should be angry with you because of that because it is their job as we said earlier is their job to get feedback from people and to make all these iterations so tell them if you think that they're wrong and the reason why you get some short content titles or some text that doesn't quite make sense or they haven't considered what happens if there's not an image or if there is an image well that is just an optimal design to sell it to the client that's just one flavour of all the billions of pages that could happen in your website so ask the questions and it will come together and design is the plan that gets us to our goal it is not the end game you are still the team players in the sport of design so why don't designers use real content well they do, they can optimal content for how the design should look when success has happened is there and the crappy content is there and we don't design all the pages because we'll never be finished, we're not making a book today the best designers aren't coming from a single designer the best designs aren't coming from a single designer who somehow produces an amazing solution the best designs are coming from teams that work together as a unit marching towards a commonly held vision and always building a new understanding of the problem and we're at school in a redesign of the design process article and I think that pretty much sums up everything I was trying to say in that time and his there we go, that's the URL for that so articles.ie and a lot of this other work is a lot of mother thinking has come from a book called you're my favourite client and even if you're a developer or a project manager I really recommend this book I think it kind of it works in a way of how to get the client to understand what you're doing and also how to get a developer to understand what design is doing and I think that it's really well written and a lot better than how I've spoke for the last 20 minutes so yeah, they're my two recommendations books if you want to read more about that I am done any questions? 100% of the time exactly just keep going back I know that you will, keep going back to them just keep going back to them I think that's the thing some designers just that's working with the wrong flavour of designer really that's probably a designer who's spent a lot of their time doing print work or working in an advertising agency or something like that you might find that another designer won't give you back and they will they won't concentrate on making a pretty picture they're not as visual they're more problem solving advertising is really good you might have noticed all my slides were madmen slides because advertising is really good at selling a dream and that is just pretty pictures it ruins your brain whereas web design is more solving the problem so a different type a different flavour of designer probably would make your life a bit easier but yeah, completely agree with doing the migration first because that's almost the same as the jason populate tool because it's getting in that real content into the designers hands as early as possible really, that's so beneficial oh yeah run you can still have that conversation it doesn't matter if it's the client's designer they should still be able to withhold their argument as to why something is like it is and if you can say but have you thought about the fact that these are green and red links have you say it's my job to pick up on this too and I'm concerned about this I mean, while you've done it they should be able to come back with a valid reason and yeah until they can't come back with a valid reason then just keep arguing that point I think the communication just helps resolve the problems and yeah, it doesn't matter if it's the client's designer because you should still be able to talk the same way you're not slinging mud at them it's still a professional conversation so yeah cool, oh hello say their hands yes yeah yeah I completely agree I think that is just completely getting the whole team started earlier because everybody at that table has a different opinion the designer is there with that brain to solve that problem to almost method act and put themselves into all of those user journeys that have been created and be like oh yes but you know I'm a mother of three I've just got a small baby and I need to quickly do this on my phone so I need to make these buttons big the designer is going to just jump into that and be like oh yeah so I can't put the button at the top because these new phones are massive and that knowledge is really great and really useful but it means that a developer has to be at the table because we put the button in the middle because that makes our whole lot easier for everyone and this button isn't that important because it's a whole week's worth of budget up so let's again it's communication isn't it it's getting them in and saying and compared to driven design as well that really helps because it's like focus on this bit let's nail this one thing let's nail these important segments and then embellish let's give them a distraction I've seen the amount of lead to steam there is progress being made the lead to be handed so focus on this one of these yeah because that soothes that need for oh we've bought a new website we want to see it now we need to know what it is because it's like well you told us that your donations are really bad and this is what we're here to fit so this is your new donation splash page this is the function where it's preset to all these different numbers so that people don't have to put in key values this is how we're going to improve our donations and then that keeps the designer happy because they've got their creative business on them that keeps you guys happy because you've solved a nice technical problem and the designers also got something and the clients got something wonderful to see that makes them realise that you understand them yeah anyone else hello it's time consuming yep, yeah you do build them the JSON files say these are the fields that you've got to work with that's a good start because then it's almost like you're giving them a Lego set and say build something fancy they can go on for ages with that but it's the same approach isn't it you're still working from build and then design in that way if you can do that just a JSON file is not going to take you long to whip up if you know what the key some key values are start working from here and then that could probably help because they can still do that in a flat approach because it's like this is the JSON file can say this is a field it's a long text field these are all the elements that you have to play with on this page go to Photoshop and enjoy it I think that works hello component-based design yep so it's completely working atomically so you start at no smaller basic elements and adding it upwards add cross things on it because it's the same principle really once you've got all of those basic elements in it is a case of just reusing those and adding them up if you've done it right you shouldn't be adding new things when you get to the components layer or templates because you should be reusing what's back there so it should be consistent and if it isn't then maybe somebody's adding some sneaky fun in the middle some sneaky fun some purple and pink so I think that that could be the problem there that there's maybe too many variations at the beginning too much to choose from really narrow that down I always find a really good rule for design is take stuff away until it's broken because if instead of adding more shinies don't take shinies away until it just works and then you've got a really clear really easy to use website that doesn't have anything it shouldn't have that's like one of my little design mantles and I think it sounds like you've got someone who likes to add all the colours and all the fancy bits and then you get things that jar each other yeah I like doing this my favourite game but then I think then in that case you should actually say that is fine we can change that here we're going to change it there as well because they then become so distant and the contrast between these two means that the site isn't coherent anymore and it's not one unit so the implication of us changing this here means it's actually a little bit more work than you think it is and I think the client if it's important enough they'll do it and all they see the expense and it'll be like oh no don't worry about it so yeah again I'll have that conversation we're done oh yeah I'm so hallo never know if I should turn that off or not we'll just go leave it you're like she's ranting yeah she's talking rubbish again doodles, boards I understand oh it was ranty not too much feels it I really enjoyed that thank you yeah yeah you do have a say yeah I think that essentially everyone wants to build a nicer website and to do a good job so the back and forth is actually going to make it that little bit nicer yeah I've literally been they're not even at the company anymore yeah I can't figure out what you're talking about yeah you're just working from a spreadsheet yeah this is where all this has come from there just hasn't been enough back and forth and that actually would be really beneficial on the project if that happened no worries thank you very much hello haven't seen you for a while probably a year normally in the case isn't it you're hungover because it's Sunday yeah hello dear you said Mark Stock Mark Stock Mark Black Design Photoshop Jared Spool the last two things at the end right in the middle oh Brad Frost Brad Frost atomic design that's a really good Brad Frost was the question oh man man what did I say I was mid-ran yeah oh I think I probably just said it right yeah I think I probably meant Mike again because a lot of things have come from that Mike Montero yeah I didn't understand I wouldn't have said it so what did I say yeah who knows here we go through my slides no but I'll have rant it I've mid-ran my so I might be prompted definitely mid-ran so I shouldn't rant as you were talking I couldn't find his name what was I staring at what was I staring at when I was looking at it what is design different points to you every single word has got design in it so I'm going to get something to do with design yeah because I'm out I said the wrong room going out you go what would it have been I've never written this much stuff and left it in my notes before I got so lost at some points normally it's just like one word yeah okay oh man I've done talks oh Mark Conroy's talk Mark Conroy the Drupal guy yeah there we go yes he should have been here this weekend but he's Irish he does a lot of Pat and Lab but he's Irish but he lives in Ireland and he's been snowed in oh that's completely different oh that's completely different sorry Mark how much is my pro and watch yeah but go listen to his talk yeah that's right there oh it's coffee now isn't it and then I'm going to watch Jenny's tasty back in Drupal Lake I think quite like that one I've never seen that talk so I'm going to sit on her talk did you see the keynote this morning they had the Oxford University oh they did the JP thing cool and did you twitch do a little dance do a little dance get my camera up people say one of you work now I'm still one of my firsts give me fear a little bit no snow child house yeah I've got I think like you said about having funny lips all the later I was like when I was thinking about the microphone oh my god cheers