 So now I can say show show captions. Oh, so there's a new show. Interesting. So close caption is turned on. So now it seems like on the newest version, I have a hide captions show captions thing which has actual icons next to who's saying things which is new to me. So they've upgraded the transcript and captioning function. That's very cool. Yeah, exactly. The new, the newest trick I saw is a thing yesterday called feather AI it's in beta and it will actually be dropping audio file on it will produce a 300 word summary. I've tried it on two of our living between world meetings and one of them it actually did a pretty credible job. Actually useful and the other was just, you know, garbage. It's quite cool on on a different list that I'm on a friend Kyle Shannon has been really playing with all these tools. And he created a Google form where you play he calls it the thought leadership the automatic thought leadership generator. And you and you put into it you follow a couple of his cues about what issue do you care about why does it matter and so forth. And it comes back with 600 word blog post YouTube video script. Humorous tweets, and something else on a topic. And it's really good. It's really good. I don't know if he's if he's like broadening it out to broad communities so I will, I will hold the link it until I've asked him whether to share will share more broadly. But there's like incredible explorations happening with these tools. And if you're in that if you're in the writing business. It's weird. It's very weird. I mean, the best of the stuff that I've seen is actually fascinating and kind of high school level. So, my problem is, some of it looks like it's college level, but doesn't know a fact from hallucination. And that that seems to be one of the problems out there is that these systems kind of hallucinate. So, I started my career, the career that worked, I was a consultant for a while, and then was asked to leave, and then found my way into tech. And I became the neural networks analyst at New Science Associates a 15 person startup in South Norwalk, Connecticut. And that was that was my, my entree into tech and I discovered that I loved being a bridge between the geeks and the business people. And so I did that for a dozen years first with new science then with Esther. And then with the neural networks analyst and one of the ways I was, I would explain neural networks was that a neural network is better at figuring out what a maple leaf might look like because it can understand mapleness. Better than any expert system or other kind of thing you could describe, but it's not going to, but you don't want to put a neural network on your bookkeeping. Like, like it's not adapted for that it doesn't know precision it doesn't know, you know, exactitude it knows essence in some sense. What we're getting right now is people looking at these tools, like chat GPT, as if they're oracles that should know everything and have facts down. I don't that that marriage hasn't happened yet. I don't think like you could fact check a GPT post and then probably change it dramatically. And yes, yesterday on yet another list. And I saw a guy who loves Spanish poetry, say that he was interacting with chat GPT which which recited for him a Pablo Neruda poem that Neruda had never written as if it was a real poem and was and was confident about the poem and when challenged on it. And when challenged on it replied, oh no no you know there's this poem, and he was like this is really dangerous people. He'll go ahead. Yeah, I have kind of the opposite interpretation Jerry not not about the neruda poem about the maple leaf, I think these things will learn to get much more fact based and precise and I would turn over my bookkeeping to them in a future generation. And I agree with that entirely. There was a great piece I think was in the times yesterday that essence said, you know, I'm, and this is a professor talking about students gaming and so forth said the tell is that I'm getting things that are grammatically accurate, but have no voice. And for me that summed up the current my current mood about these things. Long ago it became evident to me because I was like an analyst in the AI world that different kinds of AI tools were really good at different parts of problems and that any little problem you looked at was actually a compound problem. They had lots of different things that needed to act together to make sense of the thing. And so it feels like it feels like what's happened now is that some of the piece parts for a general AI of some sort have just shown up on, you know, in the arena because I added to my brain the thought we are in a post GPT world, two weeks ago. So, so I knew about chat I knew about GPT but when chat GPT like exploded into our communities. I added that thought because it was like oh okay this is different in kind. And so now I think what's happening and I'm reasonably certain with no basis in fact that behind the curtain of Google, they have all the technology that open AI could have with chat is that they have a real time search engine. And when you marry those things together and you can fact check the, the, the conversational AI that actually works. I'm getting ambient noise but I don't know from where. So how, how many of us are using chat GPT or thinking about it. I am not. I haven't played with it myself. I'm watching a lot of other people anybody else raise your hand if you've been playing with chat GPT anyway. We don't have Pete Pete is on family vacation so he would have raised his hand I think. Kevin raised his hand. Oh sorry. Why am I not seeing Kevin. He's not. He's not on visual but he does have his hand up. He has his hand up in the square I didn't even see that I was looking for for people. And Kevin used Kyle's generator and generated some ideas about donut economic about neighborhood economics using donuts Kevin you want to talk about it. Yeah, I've used it three times this morning. And then in an event in Portland about repurposing church properties into things like hydroponics on the grounds and stuff because 50,000 churches at least are going to close over the next five years. Our com team is seeing it as at least good enough for first draft marketing blog posts and things like that. And then I was been emailing back and forth with Kyle. And, you know, part of it is it's sort of becomes through kind of like a, you know, a high school essay level at first and you said yeah, what you need to do is go and go to chat GTT itself rather than us and put in what we produce in his unit. And so this is too much like a high school essay, add more nuance, add more, you know, whatever. And so our, our content editor is going to who's an English academic college is going to go and play with it there, because her students are starting to use it as well. And, you know, she's written books, you know, and I think it's really useful. And I'm interested in evolving the content it produces to make it better. But it's a good first draft to start something. So I'm really encouraged by it. And then, you know, somebody who really wants to go further can use it to go further. And it's probably only going to get lighter, faster, cheaper, better from here. I don't see that this. That's a safe bet. This craters, the doubts I've heard are that maybe we're past civilizational searchability because now the search base is going to be dirtied by all these hallucinations that and the search tools aren't going to be able to tell what was a confirmation from what was an actual thing. And that could really screw things up, but the capacity of the system seems awesome. And in order to sort of pivot us into check in mode. Kevin, I'm going to treat what you just said as the beginning of your check in would you like to check in some more and then we'll go to the queue. I'll create a little queue here. Yeah, well, you know, kind of an interesting I'm in Mexico this month with my family. We were at last year and we're here for a whole month. It's done kids and grandkids and sister-in-law and wife. And so I've had a couple weeks to just sit and think and it turns out what I do. When I have that time to think is start thinking about complex structure databases on the projects I'm working on just when my mind is arrested. And then start to work into sort of system maps like we did that built so cap or that we did that. I did working for the global funds on AIDS and malaria around the solution set of AIDS and finding the spaces where groups could collaborate where they thought they were competitive locally we're looking at. I've got a group that's looking at the possibility of doing the solution set around old growth forest with the list of partners one of the more creative forestry groups doing you we're in a big national forest area. So, it's kind of out that the pattern thing I do when my mind is arrested the same thing it's done the last 20 years build build optimal system collaboration map. And you go right back to it I was just typing into the chat I don't know that you can see the chat because you're on your iPhone but I just mentioned, I just mentioned Ziggy in the chat. Yeah. Yeah, it was a software to do to enable that make it do easier to the created both people and at the same field to one could be an edge and one could be as a center, which is still I think fairly unique. But then we were built the maps in verticals to build some businesses around it. So, that's what I'm doing around the economic thing. I love that. Thanks Kevin anything else to check in with. No, I mean, it's just odd to watch the same pattern form in my mind rest like there's a crystal and form of thinking. Oh, I did that I did that I did that. You know, and it's like, it arises on its own. It's like there's a human nature thing involved or something who knows. I don't like that, you know, yeah. Seems like that's where your essence lives. So that's cool. I guess so. Thank you. Doug, Stacy, Ken. Okay. Again, taking a somewhat contrary position, thinking about chat. I find chat very disruptive. I notice sometimes when somebody's saying something interesting, other people are typing in chat at the same time, which means that they're not really listening. And listening is letting the words come in and sink down into touch touches your soul. And things like chat just prevent that from happening. And the thought. Thanks, Doug. And so there are three things in the chat right now which I posted the first one was something I mentioned when I talked at the beginning so that was a link to anybody who wants to go look at it. The second was managing the queue for what's happening. And the third was an elaboration on precisely what Kevin was talking, what I hadn't mentioned but had done earlier in his career. So I thought and I consider that our chat often but not always is elaborating and improving what's being said, I do agree entirely that often chat can be very disruptive. And if I were doing boom dialogue, I were in a different process mode or if I were in a Quaker meeting, I would banish chat and I would like definitely like not want that to even be present. For me like we make choices and modalities, and sometimes if we use chat well, I find chat tremendously improves the conversation. Doug then kill, because I'm assuming you'd like to just open that up a little bit more. No, I think I'll just stop there just that I don't think you can listen deeply into chat at the same time. Thank you. Yeah, I have a similar sense to Doug, but find the chat is entirely ignorable. So some conversations I don't look at the chat at all and I'm just present in the room with you all and sometimes I'm scanning the chat and sometimes I'm adding to the chat and it kind of depends on where I'm at. In any given moment so I like, I like it as long as it's optional and not in my face. I'm doing what a chat GPT would do it in terms of analyzing a quicker meeting, I think that'd be really interesting. Especially the quiet part. Yeah, exactly. You could ask it. I don't do that stuff. I'm still a human learning rather than machine learning kind of guy facing. Everything that Doug and Gil said but, and I would also say if we took some time to take a break and just focus on going back and looking at what was in the chat, and seeing if anybody wanted to address something that was missed, that could solve the problem. I think the chat isn't very reflective and it's kind of antithesis of quaker meeting. I don't know about a quaker meeting but I know sometimes I'll put something in a chat, because I don't want to forget, and I know that by the time it gets to me we're not going to be talking about that anymore. And if I put it in the chat it's because I think it's important enough and I really don't want to lose it. And one of the things I try to do as moderator is what is monitor the chat for exactly things like what Stacey just mentioned and then say hey Stacey a little while ago said X, do you want to talk about it, because I see it the same way you just said it Stacey. In fairness it's hard for one person to be able to do that, while they're looking, you know while they're listening to the rest of the conversation. So if it was built into the process, then you have all eyes looking, plus it hits people differently. So that would, you know, alleviate the possibility that a gatekeeper might not let something pass through when it needs to be passed through, not just here and talk to men and other, you know, groups as well. Stuart, did you want to jump in? Yeah, so I just wanted to jump in and kind of echo Doug's thought for a minute. So all the studies that are coming out on multitasking say it's just a fantasy that you cannot do two things at once. So if you're making a comment in chat, you're probably not listening real well to what's now being said and you're commenting on something that went on in the past. And sometimes they're real interesting things that come out in chat in terms of, you know, providing a link or what have you so. I would love anybody who has run deep on that because I find that there's a bunch of areas like mirror neurons, there's a bunch of areas of human research that I'm very skeptical of. And this multitasking is impossible for humans thing is one of those. And I find this to be the way I treat it is it's a polarity to manage. Sometimes you want to be completely focused on one thing and you need focus and you want to ignore all distractions. And we don't do that often enough. And then sometimes you want to be like Bruce Lee in the field being attacked by various ninja warriors and just quickly managing a whole bunch of different things with multi sensor fusion and like immersion in a bunch of things and humans are actually really like, if you the reason jazz works is that a bunch of artists are listening to each other and responding to each other with great sophistication in high art and in real time, and they're blending a whole bunch of influences and things in their heads and so forth. And that's like, like, we think of that as great art. Right. And so I'm saying that the individuals are capable of jazz like activities in their normal actions. And so I think of this as a polarity to manage so much so that back 15 years ago I posited link Edo fast and slow, where link Edo slow was focus apps where you hide every other app and all distractions and you make it so that your desktop is only about one thing. And then fast was, hey, what interface would it take so that as the incoming stream of stimuli hits me, I can bend one to just like it take another one and repost it with a comment take another one and forward it to three mail three mailing lists because I know they'd be interested, take another one and do whatever else, where, where you only have all of your conversations weren't these separate siloed isolated things but where you could treat them as a whole. Never did didn't write that software anything like that but, but anyway, I'm a skeptic about the humans can't multitask things to and, and I don't know. I'm not a neurobiologist, or anything like that. And I think that there's lots of nuance in the issue. But, but when I hear people start with that. That another thing that does that to me is a teacher from 1000 years ago dropped into a classroom today wouldn't see any difference and it's like bullshit 100 years ago we industrialized education and nothing like what it was like 1000 years ago. Right, but but that's like this this sort of spoken wisdom that I also disagree with. I, you just, you just shifted my thinking Jerry so thank you. Oh, thank you, Stuart, and I was just feeling like I was being a little kind of no manic about this topic in a way that I think Doug wishes we didn't do in a check in call so you shifted my thinking because you made me remember you were was carrying on multiple conversations sitting at a bar. Okay, and actually there was coherence in all the time versus in all the conversations or dancing with a few people at the same time on a dance floor. So, yeah, and the ninja example really is a is a is a wonderful example of that. And there's some degree of natural human capacity for this. I used to host the 10 calls for like nine years back before podcasts for cool. And it can because of pips pip Cobra and suggestion I was taking notes during the calls and I would summarize the calls at the end I was also watching an IRC chat, and I was moderating. I was my own tech support for the calls when things blew up and all that. And I had I was comfortable doing all that stuff. And I know that I wasn't listening as profoundly as I could have been had I been in Quaker meeting or in some other setting. So Doug, I totally agree that my listening ability was different from my listening quality was different from what it would have been otherwise. But that seemed to really work for nourishing the conversation and doing stuff. And then at some point I coached someone else to do calls. And like, when we did the one call with her moderating in a different setting, we she ended the call a little early and then we did a debrief afterward and she said Jerry. When I was 45 minutes in, I looked down at my note sheet, and I had not written a word. And that's when I realized, Oh, maybe taking notes and doing all these sorts of things is a particular kind of capacity that I happen to have, you know, that that my mind line is pretty high on and that other people might not have but it's distributed to the population somehow. And it might or might not be trainable don't know. Anyway, long digression on this. I came across this distinction sometime last couple years can't remember where she in multitasking and multi focusing. And they gave the example of you can listen to NPR where you're doing the dishes, you know, you can drive while having a conversation, because that's multitasking where the demands are not overwhelming to your brain but multi focusing like driving while texting, totally different thing divides your focus in such a way that you place yourself at risk, right. So I just found that to be useful because I'm with you. We multitask all the time. There's so many things that we do without even thinking about it that are unconscious behaviors that allow us to do multiple things. But we have to have specific focus of, I got to be really aware here in two different situations that's a much higher cognitive load, much more difficult. And at one point in my life, I went to a graphic recording workshop because I wanted to learn how to do graphic recording. And I very quickly learned my brain is not wired like that I cannot if I'm drawing, I can't listen and track the conversation. Other people have this ability and it's amazing how the quality of their listening is so deep and at the same time they're being artistic and drawing and linking things and synthesizing. And I just realized, you know, I have two neurons my corpus costum one goes left to right one goes right to left and that's about it for me. But some people have very, very thick, you know bundles there and can do amazing things so I just throw that in. I have more to say about listening but it I'll wait for my check in because it's, you know, anyway, thank you. Thank you. Two friends of the community have interesting perspectives on this. Kalia Hamlin when she participates in a live meeting always brings her pastels and will sit on the ground and color because she needs to distract that part of her mind so that she can be present which is and then SD Solomon Gray started a startup called mind or something MMM my and D about multi mindings. And she talks about how mothers like our multi minding all the time, and what that is like, and then she has really interesting ideas about chronos and kairos and how all this stuff is together which I cannot paraphrase properly, but there's a there's a rich mother load of stuff that she studied around the topic mother load on a mother load well put I didn't even realize I said that. Rick go ahead. This conversation reminds me I can't keep up with all the threads that are the conversations but I did peek on one about the notion of right back, convergent curiosity. I recently heard a conversation that Simon Simic had with Adam Grant and Renny Brown, and it was about creativity. It was fascinating because they were very different and I think this speaks to our preferred modalities of being. So Simon Simic is has has got ADD. He doesn't read many books he learns from personal experience and conversations so his mind is all over the place. And people with ADD have a remarkable ability of doing a horizontal sort of scan of things, but may not be able to go in depth to the same level that say an introvert might do. So, whereas Renny Brown is the opposite she studies she read she does all these different things to stimulate her mind and does a lot of academic work I mean she's got an academic background rather than a practitioner background. And I think what some of the things people are saying is more reflects their preferences about their way of being in the world and the different ways of being in the world to learn so I just thought I would, you know, provide a perspective different people's orientations. Thanks Rick appreciate that Kevin. I think the sentiment that you can't think like that and do this is an example of traditional orthodoxy neuro dominance, trying to outlaw neuro divergent and say, This is the way to think you can't think like that. That's what they always do. And you just have to realize to stand up for the neuro divergence. If you haven't watched the extraordinary attorney who you should. And I want to tell the story of Cornelius Clements. He was an illiterate black man who lived in a shop then shot him in on the county, and he was a water bowser of extraordinary skill, and the folks doing the test this eastern natural gas pipeline just passing to come out and do stuff. And it turned he could find the water that was above natural gas. And it became an expert at it, and he put his willow wands in a pool cube kind of thing is flung all over Canada. And he I'm sorry I'm not going to let me. Okay, is this is this easier on the speaker. Yeah, much better, much better. He put his kids through college with that skill, and but he remained illiterate, and he said if I my mind did. Now you in silent. Now you're back, then they would send in the engineers, and when he knew where it was to do their engineering afterwards. And it was a, you know, they realized that this was a something their science couldn't understand but these were, you know, scouting, who understood scouting. And so there is a kind of scouting mindset that for nearly as could do. And luckily he was illiterate. So because he was illiterate his kids in the poorest part of the county all went to college. And Kevin just mentioned extraordinary attorney who, which I've been watching it's a Korean series about a woman lawyer who is autistic, and it's beautifully done. It's a little sappy because she has, she had these her fantasy and her, her world is about citations and you know whales and purposes and all those, all those critters, and how smart they are and she knows everything about them, but the series is very tenderly done brings me to tears really often, and is completely worth watching, and also just to dip into Korean culture and see what that's like. It's adorable. It's adorable. Awesome. So, looks like we cleared through that topic. Stacy, then. Who else did I have my lost my cue Stacy then can. I want to add to what you said about this being a really nuanced topic, because I agree that you can, you know, multitask but I do want to say that sometimes in conversations. It is a way to avoid feeling things and I think that's where some of that sentiment comes from and I don't want to lose that because that's that does happen. So when I read the email and I said oh it's the old time to check in I said, hmm, so what have I been doing. And for the first time it hit me that what I've actually been doing these couple of years is exactly what I had done years earlier on Facebook, which was to be part of different groups and really study the dynamics. I wasn't doing it intentionally, but I guess that's what I've been doing and I've been just paying attention to what makes people leave what makes people stay what makes people contribute more. And yeah. So that's, I've been continuing to do that involved in a number of different groups. I find myself in groups now that have more of a feminine energy, more than emergent, you know, that's the word that's being used a lot. And separately, this is a separate thing, but it's really on my mind with everything going on in Twitter. I keep feeling is right underneath our feet something's happening on Facebook. When I mean these different groups I will sometimes look at the profiles and I will see that these are not real people. You can tell by the address that they're fake and I'm like, Well, Facebook has to know that there's all of these fake beings or whatever you want to call them. And as I'm seeing these new memes being created, I'm looking to see where they came from. And they're by these fake beings. Now I'm not necessarily thinking that there's a bad event. For all I know group of people decided we're going to go we're going to influence Facebook land. However, that final pass through is missing and what I mean by that is Jerry earlier you were saying you were talking about like, who would look at accounting and who would look at this and you know, different expert and I think that's great because to do the work you really need to focus. But it seems that there's not a lot of coming back to the table and going through and checking with everybody before something is being released. And I know I rambled all over but like that person Rick described with a d d I don't have a d d but that is how I think. So I'm just trying to pull it all together. Thank you and then interestingly you wrapped around to the start of our call where we're talking about chat GPT and all these crazy things that can happen because some of those bots are experiments by people who are using things like chat GPT to generate dialogue and ideas and drop them into the conversation and see what happens. And some of them are acting in lots of different with lots of different motivations some good some bad. And like our sphere, the public square as when mosque has his best moments trying to explain what Twitter might be. And others, the public square is being diluted or improved by these things I'm not sure which and I just wanted to ask you a little bit more, you're very intentionally walking into communities not always like you to try to engage with people and figure out what's up. How's that gotten worse. Have you gotten better at it. How's that, how's that going. Okay, well, I'll do that on Facebook. And that will just be a little I don't do that in zoom calls. I mean, the most intentionally like me would be a group like this, which might, you know, be all, you know, mostly male or groups that are very heavy into tech. But they're still like me in terms of their heart. On Facebook, I'll do it. It's, it's not bad, because I will just come in with a question and I'll just look for the other people that are people don't want to be made a fool of. And what I do is I ask them questions, and I don't react emotionally, so that eventually they realize they're not going to come out looking well. I can't really describe what I'm saying but as long as I don't get emotionally thrown off. I don't react well because they, the loud mouths retreat. And what I try to do is I try to insert facts as I go along, and I learned because other people insert facts. And you know will be like, is this true. You know, and even even with friendly information is this true. I didn't know this, you know, try to model that and I see other people do the same. So the other thing is, I think more people are learning like there's different scams going around. So I notice that I will try to show what's happening and I see other people are doing the same thing. You know where people will get you to share something, they might be like a dog and they say this dog's lost and hurt. And people will share it, but then they go back and they change what the post was about. So it's like we're trying to educate each other and I, I, I like Facebook because I think there's that possibility of fostering that community feeling of like see something say something. And that's what I was always interested in. Thank you very much. Really appreciate that Rick. Rick, thanks to her. Yeah, just, I just want to dovetail on what Stacy just said because I want to share an experience where I went to a women's group, and I was in a conversation about equity. And women have an intuitive, different understanding about equity in terms of fairness than men. But I had this interesting conversation with this black executive woman who was using the word cultural competence. And that concept was sort of in vogue in medical education back in the late 1980s and 90s. And it was a word that I never liked because I feel like I'm never culturally competent. It's, and so there were some black academics who wrote a very interesting article called cultural humility. And it's, it's, it's a very different mindset it's shifting from the sort of one opposition to the one down position. And it's a much more nuanced way of being in terms of trying to understand others. And the consequence of that I got involved involved in doing a summit presentation there was interest in that and I'm doing a zoom call with predominantly a group of women, discussing the construct of cultural humility. And so, I like you Stacey like to go to different groups, because they, they evoke different reactions in ways that wouldn't occur. Had you not been exposed to significant differences so I like you, I'm an interloper of groups, and we need more interlopers. And I posted in the chat, your post about cultural competence versus cultural humidity, humidity. That's hilarious. I think cultural humidity should be a thing if it's not. I'm just saying. And back to the queue so I can kill Stuart. It's not the heat is humidity. Yeah, I just wanted to comment. Sorry, Stuart. That's okay. I'm one thing that Stacy said and that was Stacy you said I'm not a dd. I think we're all a dd. I think we're living in an a dd world I mean that's part of that. The multi the multitasking I think it's one of the things that technology interjects into the, into the culture into the world that we're all inhabiting right now. So, you know, all of it PTSD in terms of, you know, looking at media and seeing what's going on in the world today. Thanks Stuart. I like feeling like the earth could come to a sudden end right now at any moment if Kevin pinches his fingers and destroys us all. Kevin, it's great because you're on your phone you're busy scrolling and and you're it's like this it's like here's here's here's Kevin's here's Kevin zoom and it's delightful. Mr Homer. Great, I'm going to pinches all out of existence. Yeah, just you and I give invited me a few months ago to join him in hosting is living between the world's calls and and we've been experimenting with giving people some deep questions for a small group conversation and our last two calls about listening and yesterday we were asked people you know how do you listen for the concerns of others and then how do you listen to the concerns of people you disagree with and you don't share their concerns. And I realized for myself that it's very hard for me to listen to concerns I get triggered and start to engage the content and I start to get you know know this is why you're wrong. And this is really been humbling speaking of humility Rick you know it's it's I've considered myself to be a pretty good listener. And yet, like taking, for example, some of the stuff that's gone on the list in the last couple weeks around, you know, people feeling that they're threatened and the list has become nasty adversarial. Rather than probe for what's the concern underneath. I've been more like, well that I don't see the nastiness where is this coming from you know why is this adversarial I mean, because someone disagrees with you does that make it adversarial. It's been very very interesting to recognize the limitations that I'm operating under and how I need to go deeper to, if someone says something that I, I find challenging. What's the concern under that instead of why do I want to engage with that and prove me to be right. And then listening to other people. There was a woman on the call who was sharing how she's listening to people who say climate change is not a big deal. And I felt so much empathy because I could just see her like, but you don't get it it's really a big deal, which is not actually listening. That's trying to persuade. And I'm very aware of how much I want to persuade people to see things the way I see them. And so I'm just, I've been sort of. Okay, thank you. That's that's our handyman handyman can go away handyman can go away. So I'm just really aware of how I've been remiss in listening for what's the concern underneath your point. And do I need to do anything other than just really listen and find out what that concern is I don't have to agree with it I have taken on as my own. But if I listen well enough to help you feel that I've heard your concern and I think we'll have a different That's very, very challenging for me to do that, because I get triggered easily. So that's, that's one of the things that I live between worlds together with OGM because of what's gone on in this list in the last few weeks and people, you know, making these allegations that been really challenging for me when when someone says to me, the Lancet is a corrupt magazine, you know, you can't trust it. And when I asked them, how do you, you know, why do you say that they're like, Well, it's all, they'll say anything, you know, and I'm like, I understand But how do you validate that you know the person you're telling me to look at is showing up on on right far right wing media and conspiracy theory sites and you're asking me to give that the same weight as a peer reviewed medical journal, and I just can't do that. So that's where I get hung up instead of saying, what's your concern underneath which I think is trust, you know, how do we, how do we trust a source what makes a source trustworthy and accountable. And for some people that it's, if it agrees with their worldview, and for other people it's like if it challenges my worldview but challenges in such a way that there's evidence and a line of logical thought that I can follow. I will say, as Stuart just said a few minutes ago, I need to shift my thinking, right, rather than I'm only looking for things that reinforce my worldview. And that's been a really big point of tension that I'm seeing going on here. So, that's what I'm up to in terms of trying to figure out how to move forward in this world. Kim, thank you that gave me like 10 great things to sit and ponder like, because I feel I feel the same way. And I think I think this sequence of calls is evidence of the ways that I get triggered when things come up because I'll go pour stuff into the chat I'll interrupt people. I'll say Stuart you just said something that kind of triggers me and this is why, and feed that back in and you all are still here so I guess that sort of works. But I want to inspire all of us to slow down and try to ask the underlying questions and all that because it's really important. And one of the big things that's going on right now is the undermining of facts and trust in reality, which was happening before GPT and synthetic media all showed up, and they're just going to make reality muddier. Right. So we're, we need to sort our way through this thing together. To figure out what the future looks like. Sorry, got a little philosophical there. So let's go Bill Stewart Rick. Bill is, are you going to speak or is your fathom note taker going to speak for us. I haven't even speak yet I don't know what its accent is or it's gender or it's neuro type but there it is. Okay, it's just kind of defaults on I have to shut it off if anybody hates it and I'm always it's it's it's been fun. You know, Jerry you play an interesting role in these conversations because it's a conversation among equals but your first among equals and you do what you do it's part of why we're here but if we all did what you did in this call the call wouldn't work. So, there's that. Thank you Ken for what you shared and I'm big gratitude for Ken for joining me and co hosting these calls been a really rich process of no collaboration and discovery. And I had a couple of things to share but I want to comment on that first the this question of how we listen and what we listen towards is becoming very powerful for me and I've noticed that my, my automatic inclination is to listen and categorize put what people are saying into particular boxes in my experience or to notice if I agree or disagree or if it's true or not true, rather than as Ken said just listening for them and what they care about and why this is so important to me at least is that my interpretation like in this country is that a lot of the fears political Gulf that's emerged over the past couple of decades is happening at the surface and below that there's a deeply held set of common concerns even among people who might be at each other's throats. And so for me the only hope in this country is to be able to listen across that Gulf. And you know you see the polling that says there's super majorities on issues like climate and others, but that's not how it plays out in the public dialogue so I'm very interested in a dialogue that lets us listen to each other deeply I was talking with a friend about this. Recently, who said, Well, I have absolutely no interest in the conversation with Donald Trump or Lindsey Graham, or Kevin McCarthy. And I said, Well, neither do I. But I have a lot of interest in. Well, you do okay but I would love to talk to them. Yeah, I don't. Yeah. Okay, well, we can come back to that I'm not interested in that but I'm very interested in the conversation with the people who vote for them. Which I think is a different realm of possibility and for me the kind of the metric on a lot of stuff is does a conversation open possibility or close possibility. A friend challenged me some years ago said you're being arrogant. And I thought I said I thought I was being bold. One of the games I play in the work that I do and I thought into that a lot and thought that maybe the difference between those is that bold opens possibility for the other people in the conversation that arrogant shuts it down. So that's been a kind of a litmus for me in this. What am I'm up to I'm, you know, I'm building deal flow for the private equity for good game that we've talked about before. Kevin I'm fascinated by your, your practice of system maps and solution sets would love to talk with you more about that. I took my toe into Ziggy years ago but never got far with it but my inclination is the very much the same as that I'd love to just sort of, you know, play together. What you've done and see if it's applicable to the stuff I'm doing and just see what else we might cook up together so thank you for that. What I'm also doing is looking a lot at my personal practices I've had a number of breakdowns in my games in the last couple months and some of them all too familiar like, you know I've done this breakdown before. I've done so much in the question of how do I shift my practices my habits my ways of doing things to be more supportive of who I am now. And that's, that's it what one of the one other thing kind of a functional request to people I've got a lot. I'm realizing that I've got an enormous amount of content that I've built over the decades some of which is extremely useful I think in the sustainability I got I got no way to thank you. Kevin you're being generous it might be more than 19. I don't I don't have a pipeline to turn that stuff out into the world to repurpose it carve it up edited collate things into books whatever that could be useful for people who are newer into the game than I am. And so I'm looking, and this is not something that chat GPT and stuff like that can do yet. So I'm looking for some humans. Well, yeah, if you if you know, help me out point me somewhere. So a question for you gill on that. And I just my written my request is for some humans who can go ahead, but if you got bots that can help me do that go ahead. The floor is yours. So my question to you is an important one from my perspective in what you just said which is. It's important to you that you lock down those words and own IP over them and control them and not let them spread. Or is it more important for you that they feed the Commons and like live out in the world in some manifestation, as long as they sort of find their way back to you through attribution. Yeah, I want the latter for sure I want them out in the world. If it could if there could be some kind of monetization pathway to me of not just acknowledgement but micropayments that would be cool also the priorities get them out in the world. I'm, I'm, I'm seeing, I'm seeing myself at this point you know in the sustainability game was this combination of an elder and a curious eight year old. And I think that's my superpowers to be both of those. But I'm also, I got a call this week from 2728 year old woman who used to be our neighbor went off to be a rabbi decided she didn't like the past real life and is now in business school with Johns Hopkins. And called me up to try to pick your brain I said no you can't I do not like sharp metal objects inserted into my skull but I'm happy to have a conversation. And, you know, she's just hungry for the kind of experience I've had and I say that not to toot my own horn but to toot the horn of, you know, those of us who have been in the game for 3040 50 years and folks who are coming in new and rediscovering great and reinventing and seeing things that we never could have seen great but also could benefit from the past that we've traveled. So, I'm in the question of how do we share that. And, and, you know, and for me stay hungry stay curious to not to just go sitting a rest on some laurels. So, there's a lot of squash laurels out there somewhere, a lot of squash laurels so if you know I'd love, let's have a conversation about ways to to move that kind of legacy resource not just for me but other people here out into the world that are useful. Love to do that. Laurel leaves are sharp you don't want to sit on them. Holly, Holly bad. Holly bad. Laurel not so bad Holly terrible. Holly, Holly pokey. Holly pokey. But I don't even want to go there. Thank you very much Gil. We have Stuart Klaus john. Yeah, so I don't, I don't have too much. I am putting together poetry manuscript. Gathering testimonials. Kind of excited about that. And, and so there will be a book in in 2023 365 poems one poem for every day of the year, called pilgrim's path morning practice for seekers. So that's kind of, I'm kind of excited about that and in terms of, you know what that'll mean in terms of identity. Who knows it's just kind of an interesting, interesting journey. That's one. The other thing that's been kind of noodling in my brain and I think it came up in the, in the, for the first time with some degree of clarity in the society. 2045 conversation. Being in the matrix, but really understanding that at a new visceral level how we're all inside the matrix versus being outside of the matrix and what is that, what is that, what does that all mean. I felt like I totally stepped out of the matrix I decided to take the, the stole the solstice seriously, and, and went off to the beaches around Point Reyes California, and just kind of stepped out of the world. And it was a really healing day. Just, you know, not doing anything and completely divorced and having, you know, some conversations that matter with with some friends, even driving there driving through Western Marin. Absolutely gorgeous and just a notion of how healing that is versus, you know, the, the built world that the stuff that we humans have created. So, I guess that's my that would be my checking going into the going into the new year. Yeah. Thanks, Stuart. Thank you. And Doug, you had your hand up a moment ago and I failed to notice it before passing the mic. The moment has passed, but I'll say it anyway. Please, which is, I don't think we are doing a check in procedure here we're doing something else. So, Doug, would you like to tell us about your the conversations you used to moderate and how they worked. The conscious conversations I'm forgetting what they're called. Okay, the serious conversations. Yes. Okay. We started out with a group of people like this is this and treat it like it's a circle. And each person is invited to say what's been on their mind. That's most worthy of a serious conversation. And the next innovation is whoever volunteers to go first picks the next person from the group to speak. No comments are allowed, as you've got to listen. And because you're really being heard, you have an obligation to keep it fairly short. That seems to work pretty well. The advantage of going around the room and having everybody speak is that people need to hear their own voice in the group. They're going to be really a participant. So that gets out of the way people have heard themselves in the group and know that the group has heard them. So it goes really quite well. If we get stuck, I often find myself saying, look, you know, as you're talking the purpose is not to convince other people but to stimulate them. And if you see that you've done that, guess what, it's time to stop because if you keep talking, you're going to ruin the very thing you've already created. So, another question for you, Doug. So much of your wishes for OGM check in calls on Thursdays is based on your experience hosting serious conversations and that particular methodology just described to us because it's what you just described as a group process format, or technique, and a lovely one. It's not the one we're using clearly here. But it's a format. So how much I'm trying to figure out, do you wish we were doing serious conversations here? I mean, that would be fun, but no, that's not my, my, when I think of the check in here, it's like somebody checks in they say what's where they are. And then we go to another person, rather than starting with one person and chaining off by free association into lots of other thoughts that prevent us from going around the circle. So we end up a lot of people who didn't get to do a check in. And then we make it around the circle today, which doesn't always happen. I totally agree. It's really, it would be very simple for me, two weeks from now to run the call, the way you just described as an experiment that's a low cost easy thing to try. And I'm happy to do so. I mean, I'm curious if anybody wants to jump in, which would you do you have any preference a priori just not having tried it. Do you like the mix and stir approach? Would you prefer check uninterrupted check ins in the style that Doug described? How do you feel? I'll jump in because I'll I've also have to check out here in about three minutes. So yeah, I'm a long participant in serious conversations. It is different. It is interesting. I would say it's worth. Doing it occasionally in OGM. You know, we could just say, in fact, I would also say, let's do and let's do that one. But we should also get we should get a little micro consensus at least ahead of time. Like just, all right, we're going to this is what's proposed. We're going to try this on this Thursday and then we're going to try this other thing. You know, that somebody has proposed as a as a conversation technique. It does get you to a different place. No question about that. And just to finish my check in, I asked, I just asked chat GPT to show me a conversation between Esther Perrell and either Bill Clinton or John F. Kennedy about personal relationships. And it was fun to come up with that prompt the responses. We if you think the responses are coming from a robot they're startling. I couldn't have it's not what I would consider my, my, you know, finished draft that I would, it's not publishable, you know, but it's like an amazing first draft in like 90 seconds. We came back with an amazing first draft of the exchange between a president and their therapist. So on that note, I will please say goodbye. And continue the great, great discussion and I hope to join you in the future for different formats. Thank you very much. There's a famous strange movie called the President's Analyst from 1967, which is kind of a cult classic. Some of us may know about and thanks also for reporting in about serious conversations. And it gives me the idea that one way to rethink OGM Thursday calls for the new year is to say, Hey, we have a series of formats we like, and we're going to rotate between the formats. And what we've been doing this year is rotating alternating between two formats. One is the mix and stir format that we're in right now. We pick a topic and we haven't been very good at picking topics before the actual Thursday calls so sometimes we pick a topic at the start of those calls, but then we just go deep into one thing and have a salon style conversation so we have two formats. I've tried a bit to get other people sort of hosting in different ways in particular not white men that hasn't been all that successful and I'd love to do more of that. Another format could be someone else's hosting and they get, you know, facilitators choice for what they'd like to do, etc, etc. So I would, I would enjoy figuring out what those formats are. But I don't know that we want this to be an endless format exploration call because that that starts to get draggy on format starts to weigh heavily on content or relationships and I really like that we know each other pretty well, because of the time we spent here. Michael then Stacy. Hi, I was going to this is not a not a check in but just a thought on the conversation about meeting format. And I think there's something beautifully hybrid about the idea of uninterrupted check ins that are not just, you know, how we're doing and what what's alive for us, but subjects that we're thinking about that we think might be worth talking about and then yielding, you know, from from a relatively swift, unadorned check in process yielding a discussion it's almost combines our current two formats into one format and that might be a thing to try. That's all. Thanks Michael. Yeah, I mean I guess it would depend what the intent is but usually if I'm in a group or facilitating a group conversation. I want to know if somebody has something burning, because often I find that there's an energy that other people are feeling as well. And if you ask the person to come forward with somebody that really has something other people feed into that as well. So I like to start from there to see where there's the strongest both. But again it depends on what the intention of the call is. Thank you. Other thoughts on this. There's a tendency in a group to try and lower the group anxiety. And one way that a group does that is focus on the first person who speaks and try and make that the topic. In serious conversations we start with the idea that each person should say what's been on their mind that's most worthy of a serious conversation. And at the time you've gone around the circle, you have a lot of interesting ideas that are not necessarily commensurate with each other, but very stimulating. So it's that idea of getting a lot of voices into the conversation before you start the interactive conversation. Over time and how often were you holding the serious conversations were they monthly. Weekly. Okay. So, and I assume that you had a steady body of participants. Did they say different things each week or were they like, like there's a bunch of us who have a thing in our heads which is worthy of serious conversation and if I asked that question every week. I would sort of be saying the same thing roughly every week and varying it a little bit did that happen or was it different from that. I think that happened very little, but the group would be tolerant of it. And this gets into some of the empirics of what we learned. Sometimes the people who tend to perseverate around a single type topic. If they're allowed to talk for a while, they will dig themselves out of that as a new territory. But it's not easy. Yeah, and then. So you would go around the circle and then I don't know how long the sessions were, but would you have half a session then to pick one with the group come to consensus on one of the topics presented or how did that work. No, just you would go around the circle. When the last person had talked. The conversation was open to where wherever it was going to go no guidance. And where you were the in you were the convener but not in that case, facilitating where the topic went you were just letting it go wherever it went. Yeah, my, my task was to try and keep it short. Because people tend to perseverate there's always people in a group who as they hear themselves talk it's a sign that they should keep talking. Are they are they still happening. We have a cove it really broken apart. We've had an online zoom version. And that's not taking quite so well because we're finding that right now people are really pressed in so many different directions that the conflict of what group to be and where this has really increased. So the answer is sort of. We're continuing once a month right now. And what year was the first one when did you start it. Oh, 10 years ago. Okay. I thought it was like 20 years ago. Well, it might have. Yeah, quick poll on the on the question of amount of time I'm in about, I think five or six conversations a week of this sort. How show show fingers how about the rest of you how many how many of these kind of things are you involved in actually. Kevin, you got fingers Kevin. Yeah, it wasn't the middle finger that's good. Just this one. Yeah, my other stuff calls are about doing stuff. Cool. Thanks. Or with friends. Yeah, to finish our round it's class Michael me. Yeah, maybe if I can take us back to the idea of listening and hearing. I was really intrigued with Kevin's experiment here with GPT because it's, it's, it's just better than you would think it could be. And it also brings me to to the donor model that he's using. I'm working on a webinar series for next year that's titled sort of from found the fork. You can apply that to any system. But each, each, each process now has individual actors that look at the same delivery of a service or a product from a different angle different perspective right so my first webinar actually I have a completely diverse group of of of actors where there's a farmer who looks at his land and what he needs to go and and what he needs to do to read to restore a soil back to health but then from then you need an aggregator. You need a logistics provider you need a processor you need a wholesaler and a retailer and you finally need the fork consumer. And for every single participant. This looks completely different right a consumer has completely different needs and perspectives than the farmer would. So to create a story that that connects, you know, these, these, these different actors to work jointly on a common on a common outcome, which in this case would be to restore soil and watersheds back to health. So how do you convey to the consumer who has like zero understanding and zero understanding of all the technical components here. To hear people, you know, in, in ways that that sense making for them becomes becomes a thing you know where where they understand from from why this is good for me for me personally and what then what do I get to to benefit out of here. I mean that's that's really, that's really a challenging thing to do, and I've spent all my life, you know, in marketing and basically in process management. It's different because you have like an overarching goal right so you have missing the perspective of climate change and environmental restoration needs that need to that need to govern the entire system. And I keep on talking about the hierarchy of the system or the hierarchy of information right so there is this overarching goal, but it means something different for everyone in that in that chain. So, so that's why the donut economy that that can has been stitching together there is is that do not model is basically saying the same thing if I understand it correctly. Anyway, so that's that's my, my focus and and challenge for 2023. We have our first webinar scheduled for February. We have the owner of land or legs there that is a dairy company and they have developed a organizations called Twittera which is a farmers co op and they're working with farmers to improve the quality of their soil which improves the quality of the crop coming out of the which improves the quality of feet going into their cows which improves the quality of the milk that goes into their butter and into their dairy products. And we have a hedge fund manager there was focused on investing into into the supply chain and a farmer, and then we have the bio nutrient food association in there to explain how the quality of the soil microbiome is reflected in your guts. The quality of nutrient density and the quality of nutrients in that soil is being is being reflected in your own microbiome in your gut. So, yeah, so I'm really intrigued with the need to listen empathically and within the context of the person you're listening to or the copious listening to you. Thanks for the last sentence class because I was about to ask you to connect this back to listening which is what you started with. And there you go. Can I ask how the great classes on the call yesterday I just like to know how it was for you. Great. You know the second call, which was the topic was how do you listen to people you disagree with right. What we were right into into explaining why my opinion is. It's hard. Yeah. Here's why I'm writing you're wrong. We got into COVID right and they're saying so let's take COVID and I suggest maybe COVID maybe climate change maybe some other topics but we got stuck on COVID and boy just instantly started to get interesting. Thanks so much. Michael, it's your con and I'm just noticing that Carl was on the call because the chat was hiding his name on it so Carl will put you in the queue as well, but Michael floors yours. Hello. I am I am packing for a little holiday travel so I've been off camera but I'm here. I was struck by something that someone was was saying earlier, and I'm, I'm trying to remember. I mean it was it was just generally I think it was Gil and someone else talking about the way that we identify people as members of factions. And I don't recall if the if the terms red and blue or were identified, but thinking a lot about how just how damaging it is that we're that we're lumping entire sets of views together and you know I hear that in some of the conversation that has come up partly in the in the email chain and and partly here around other ring Republicans and you know in everyday life I have this experience a lot. It's funny I'm, I'm traveling because I'm Airbnb in my apartment. This week, and the people who are staying there are. When they came in, you know, I was, I was painting them with the brush of hmm. These people probably aren't going to love the big black lives matter, like, you know, thing in my window and, you know, some of the other stuff on my bookshelves and, you know, what's that going to do are they going to treat my place nicely and, you know, and I did my best to bond with them. My, my lingua franca for commonality across political divides is always sports. So it turned out, you know that that we could talk about their beloved Jacksonville Jaguars who they were coming to see play the jets and, you know, it was good and and I hope that established enough human connection that, you know, all will be well. But, you know, at the same time, I wished that I hadn't been reading those signals and hadn't had any reason to lump them, and nor they to lump me, and that our viewpoints on things were more complicated. And as they generally would be, I think, if we weren't encamped. And I feel like I don't know this to be true. I, I, you know, have not done my own research, as some like to say, but I do think it was much more possible to be, you know, a anti abortion Democrat, a, you know, liberal Republican, I mean, all the things that are sort of verboten now. You know, I can remember I mean just in, in just thinking of senators when I was a kid, you know, and, and, you know, people who are around that that were. You know, I don't know what the word is, but they didn't, they didn't fit neatly into into categories. And yeah, a fond wish to me is that that political parties just didn't exist. You know, that that everyone was independent, and we had to do our, our voting for people based on, you know, discerning what their views were and saying, well, I agree with this person on these issues that are a priority to me even though I disagree with them on that issue that, you know, I don't value as highly, etc. You know, and that happened across the map. So yeah, I just, I wanted to to underline and resonate with the notion that that boxing people is really creating big problems for us. We have to do that. That's me. I'll go back to packing. Well thank you so much for sharing that that's you're making me realize that these days I think often when we pick up one queue about a person's potential point of view, it's kind of connected to a whole constellation of things that they probably also and and and I think that we sort of jumped there pretty quickly and we're seen to be in an era where that's happening a lot, partly through external stimuli and divisiveness and a bunch of other things going on and so Kevin and Carl. And briefly, I've done a bunch of investigative reporting in the Christian right and how it was the real creator of a lot of the tools that the political right is now using. And one of the things of their epistemology of fundamentalism is divisive and militant and using a particular text as a weapon. So, I've found some ways to ask them. Essentially, the question is, do you need to demonize, or can you find a commonality with the other, and look for things that look like there is a slippery slope toward infection, if you allow the other, you know, and there's ways you can to get at that kind of way of thinking in places that are not their central point of concern but you find backwaters where that way of thinking is there, because if you go to the central place that they are worried about you know vaccines or whatever. And they will have answers ready but if you go to the backwaters where they use that way of thinking and show that you know there is a need to demonize as opposed to find common ground with the other. Then you know that that module is in place. And so finding common ground will not be their goal because they find common ground is the source of infection. So, anyway, I've learned to deal with them because I've had to deal with them a lot of ways and find out about them in ways that they didn't smell me coming. And so anyway, I found that that works. Thank you. That's, I'm observing what you're saying it's great. Carl and Mike. So, well, I was thoroughly surprised, pleasantly surprised by seeing Jacksonville upset the Cowboys there. Being a commander's fan. Well, one of the things I did wanted to ask with the social network if you know people anybody who's a certified facilitator in the six thinking hats method. I'm sure if you might know somebody Jerry, I don't but if anybody does please type their name into the chat or raise your hand or whatever. Yeah, because I'm going to track that down because as I was looking more at the believing game which I brought up several times I kind of see that is kind of wearing the yellow hat type of thing where the science is the black hat so somebody who's a facilitator in that but I want to talk with them about saying that about facilitating a session about the believing game. This is Peter elbows thing. Yeah, that's Peter elbows. I think you mentioned it before so I put it in my brain so I just pasted it into the chat. I don't know that much about it. I have it under the thought believing is seeing, which is the opposite of seeing is believing. It's, it's more contrasting with the basically kind of the scientific method is incomplete it's like only half the picture really so it's really sad it's been an ongoing thing. And then I guess what was, is there a specific top dam was kind of pulled off. I wasn't even sure if we were meeting today. Yeah, today is a check in format. So, I was just about to go to you to check in. Okay. Yeah, I've been getting quite involved with the international society for the system sciences, the I triple s. So, then. There's a lot of good things going on there one of the things I've been looking at I think I posted it before too but there's that Jeremy, kind of wait, and over he's been getting a lot of attention from the LinkedIn editors he's like, but he did this. He's got this whole process where he's analyzing speeches and stuff he's got like a whole process for doing for doing that so I mean with the I triple s to it's like this storytelling is so huge. In fact, I can't find who it's attributed to but the shortest distance between two people as a story. There's lots of, so I think one of those things where groups they've got like, I think it's like 24 system integration groups, six or whatever so it's like way to the energies kind of diluted so where do we really need to focus attention so I'm going to be. I'm going to be talking about really kind of looking at it at story and some of the systems approaches to, to story to apparently that's Patty dies with Google the Google tells me and I don't know. Yeah, that's that's what I saw to yeah in fact somebody had had that as a, as a slide in the presentation I'm reviewing on on DIA, which is primary. So, focus at work and set which is, but the federal government it's great I mean we have the accessibility is in there it's not just the I it's actually DIA. So, accessibility doesn't have to be the an afterthought. Same there but so that that's work I also involved in reviewing software requests for whether people have been doing the 508. So I'm kind of doing 508 reviews don't know what a 508 review is 508 section 508 is the rehab act 1973 but it requires that ICT is accessible for people with disabilities. Cool. And then just, I did a presentation last on the ninth to honor Doug Engelbart's the demo there I did a, I did a presentation about his influence on my work and then I'm posting a link to it but there's this three practice circle. It could be, I posted a link to the list there's actually the one up coming up next, next week that's talking some about COVID, but it would be interesting to, you don't have to talk at all you can just join in and listen and stuff but it would be interesting to have some people one of one of them and then we then we could kind of talk about it afterwards and see what people think of that process because it's, they take on a lot of challenging controversial topics and it's like one hour kind of is set so it's, it's kind of it's a really nice model we've actually been adopting it at Fielding Graduate University. And so we actually, they actually are paying to have some people become certified referees so we're actually looking to use it for internal conversations around DEI and the colonizing the curriculum and some other challenging social injustice issues. With that, I'll complete the check in then. Thanks Carl, thanks very much. Mike, if you want to comment and check in that'd be awesome. Sure. I can't comment so much since I just joined about 10 minutes ago, although I wish I'd been part of the conversation. I think I've mentioned a book before on called Dreaming in Chinese, which is a book by Deb Fallows about how the Chinese see the world, and how that worldview is shaped by their language. So, some of the comments that people were making about how different subsets of Americans see different things. Just a few random observations. Every two or three months I watch an hour of Fox News, and I did it this morning to see how they reported on Zalinsky speech last night. Absolutely surreal. How'd that go. It was it was it was America's newsroom. So it's, you know, a magazine format five or six minutes on each topic. Five minutes on the weather in the Midwest. Seven minutes on the terrible things happening on the border and how it's all Biden's fault. Four minutes of very positive news coverage about Senator about Governor Ron DeSantis trying to force to stop teachers unions from getting their dues. It wasn't until minute 24 that they devoted 20 seconds to Zalinsky speech. And that was to tease a later segment that happened at 33 minutes. Five sentences of the speech. And then six minutes on how Putin is threatening to send ICBMs our way, and why Republicans should ask hard questions about Ukrainian aid. It was mind boggling. There's no mention of the fact that the Congress actually got bipartisan agreement on keeping the government open. So, again, I encourage all of you to do this at least once every two months, and particularly when there's big news. I mean it's really interesting to see how different the world looks. It's not all about the internet and it's not all about Facebook a lot of mind control is happening directly through, and not just through Tucker Carlson. I mean this is the standard Fox news program. Changing topics more optimistic. It's been some quieter time now to reach out to old friends as an avid Facebooker I have all these Facebook friends who know what I do on a weekly basis if not a daily basis. But then I have all these old friends about a third of whom aren't on Facebook, and I think it's time for Christmas cards to make a comeback. Take my, take my, my, my 10 most popular Facebook posts and put them on a piece of paper and send it to my, all my non Facebook friends who probably have forgotten who I am. But I'm also catching up my phone on some of these people with some of these people and these are, you know, friends who go all the way back to college or even high school. And I'm doing some thinking about what I want to change in the coming year, you know, and how to, how to use what I do at Carnegie to change the debate, make the world a little better. But I'm so glad I was able to pop into this group I have a conflict every other Thursday so I look for are we meeting in between Christmas and New Year's or. Yeah, and in particular because in years past Thursday has been like Christmas Eve and stuff like that and we still met. And this year, it was shifted over a little bit so it's even kind of safer so yes we'll, we'll be, we'll be meeting. I hope I can join you then, and can talk about some of the my grand travel plans for the coming year I've gone around the world in September and I went to India in October and I went back to India in November. Wow, had lots of adventures there. I love Australia for the coming year. And anybody who likes beer on the call, install the untapped app and follow Mike. How many posts do you have about beers now and I'm in search of the ultimate beer so I sample a lot of beer three ounces at a time, and I'm up to almost 1700 beers. Yeah, it's it's a it's a wonderful example of the hive mind a million people ranking beers every week. What are some of your favorites Mike. Sign up. I'm not going to do that. I have a list of about 3035 star beers that I know. His favorites list is is cool and many of which I've never heard of so yeah. What I want to know those of you in the DC area there was an there's an incredible version of the tempest on. It's just been extended a few more weeks, but it's at the roundhouse theater I think we have one or two people in the DC area. This is mind bogglingly good. We saw it last night. Beer is why you travel and Carnegie is the excuse. We do some serious vacationing to but yeah beer beer is certainly one of the goals. Have you ever run into Justin Kavanaugh and your beer tasting, because remember he likes beer. Oh, he likes it a lot. Nicolob I think. mean bread bread. And, and strangely enough, Mike, just last week or something I was driving around Portland and there's a place called john's market which has an insane collection of beers here, and I had the wish in my head that I could walk into that store and that the untapped app would show me the overlap between the inventory in the store right now and your favorites list. I was like, damn it if that could like it be a lot of work to sort of crawl the aisles and figure this out but if they, if this could just light up and go hey we have these I would just go pick them off the aisles. Well, they, they, the smart bars now do this, you go in and they list the tap list, and they put the untapped listing for each one. That's awesome. Fantastic. Stuart. Just, just briefly I wanted to add something quickly to my check in and that is on Friday night I saw a play at Berkeley replica remembering Jan Karski with David Struthern and a one man show that was funded by a unit out of Georgetown University that wants to take important political topics and get them into the media through art in a certain way and they kind of almost commissioned the writing of this, but I'd never heard of Jan Karski until I was in crack out this past summer. This is an Otto Schindler like figure who had audiences with President Roosevelt during World War two, before the US got into the war. He met with Justice Felix Frankfurter and reported the atrocities in Poland and in Auschwitz specifically, and I don't believe this, not that he didn't believe what he was saying the truth of it, but that his mind couldn't comprehend the atrocities perpetuated on on a human population. And I think that that's going on in Ukraine today. And I think that's one of what Putin is doing. And it just made me think about, you know, what I slash we might be doing more of, and it kind of ties in many ways to, to what Mike just shared about Fox News. I have the same practice, by the way. And the other thing that I wanted to say was comment on on people. There's a conversation about having different opinions than others. There's a classic story. I think it's out of the mediation universe, where, you know, somebody comes and shares their opinion, and the mediator goes, you're right. And somebody else shares an opinion, and maybe it was a rabbi story, I don't know. Yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right. And just the notion of that there is so many different rights. It's a very much an individual thing and of course, there are certain, you know, wrongs that we would all kind of agree to, but just that bigger mind. When listening to others to allow different perspectives to be part of conversation and to be part of your mindset when you're listening. So, thank you all. Thank you. Thank you, story. Bentley, hi, do you want to check in? I can. I'm sorry, I'm late. Has the topic of the since doing thing already come up? We talked about it very, very little. So if you wanted to go there, that'd be awesome. So I and several of the people have been hashing, hacking around kind of thinking about since making and since doing since the conversations over the last in this meeting and in the email list. So we have a document a Google doc that I just kind of threw up and throw some ideas on. There's lots of confusion and crosstalk, which is typical. So we're trying to sort all that out. So I've been playing with it last night and this morning. I've been doing a lot of work in there, along with several other people, a Rob O'Keefe, which I don't think he's on the call. So, so yeah, we're coming up with some ideas on just how we might want to collaborate in the sense of making space which is something OGM's been focusing on doing for a long time so that we can join. We can post some links to those things or probably a great place to go is the matter most channel, and we'll try and on since doing and that's that the current name we might rename it. So that's where we'll be kind of posting updates, and you can kind of see how to participate if that's something you're interested in. I'll put a link to the doc that Bentley mentioned in the chat. And all come on over to the matter most channel and join the conversation if you'd like we're trying to figure out how to do stuff rather than talk about doing stuff. Yeah, and I guess Jerry we probably also need I'm keeping in a post night channel saying hey we're thinking about doing a call after the holidays, maybe I did post something done so much this morning I've forgotten. I just enjoy working in a more synchronous and the way that this ideas, these ideas are flowing synchronous maybe more effective than this kind of asynchronous document updating or combination of the two. Thanks Bentley. Open playground. I appreciate that description of what we're up to. I want to go back to one thing Stuart said just for a moment, because it's, it's in my mind a bunch and I don't think I talk about it enough, or I haven't sort of got it out which is about Putin's war crimes and sort of the atrocities happening right now in Ukraine. And what I. So what one of the things that impressed me in a very negative way was that in a couple of months of activity, Russia could turn parts of Ukraine into Grosny. And if anybody remembers sort of the wars in Chechnya and Afghanistan and how awful those cities looked. There are vast swaths of Ukraine that look like that now where every building has been damaged and needs to be rebuilt, where the damages is extreme and complete. And then on top of that when occupiers came in they were busy torturing and doing a whole bunch of things. And all of that says to me, hey look if it's really obvious and evident that a country is perpetrating war crimes live now. Does that not raise the whole situation to some other level for the United Nations or NATO or somebody else where some other intervention is mandated. Because these crimes are already being proved and one of the things that's happening as you as Ukraine takes back territory. This is some of the first people who go into the newly won back territory are the evidence collectors. They're busy finding mass graves and identifying bodies they're busy doing all these kind of it looks like there's there's a whole series and maybe I'm at the end of an extremely efficient marketing chain that has convinced me that there's war crimes going on but I don't think so I think there's a huge onward. We've since we've seen something that's unusually brutal. And so I, I know international diplomat but I want to know why the world allows this to keep happening as it's happening. Because it's live right now, this stuff is still going on there's no, no question in my mind, which is not the highest note to end the call on just before Christmas so if somebody you know I was going to say can if you have a poem that would be a lovely thing to add to this as a bone. Mike, or if people have a single gift that they've gotten at Christmas or given at Christmas that they want to tell us about, maybe just type that in the chat, you know something that the law always remember, and which some of us could steal and give, you know, replicates. I'm, I don't know about you but I'm terrible at gift giving but every so often I hear of just a golden idea and I, I use it. That's a lovely idea. Thanks Mike. So anybody who wants to share gift ideas during the poem. Please do. So, another one of my favorite poets is Vistava Zimborska, who is a famous Polish poet who won the Nobel Prize for literature. And this is called classifies, who's ever found out what location compassion parts imagination can be contacted at these days is here with urge to name the place and sing about it in full voice and like crazy and rejoice beneath the frail branch that appears to be upon the verge of tears. I teach silence in all languages through intensive examination of the starry sky, the synanthrops draws a grasshopper's hop and infants fingernails plankton snowflake. I restore lost love act now special offer you lie on last year's grass bathed in sunlight to the chin, while the winds of summers past, rest your hair and seem to lead you in a dance for further details right dream. He said, someone to mourn the elderly, who die alone and old folks home applicants don't send forms or birth certificates, all papers will be torn. No receipts will be issued at this or later dates for promises made by my spouse, who's tricked so many with his sweet colors and fragrances and sounds. Logs barking guitars on the street into believing that they still might conquer loneliness and fright. I cannot be responsible. Mr. days widow. This is night. Thank you. That was beautiful. Happy solstice Christmas Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Festivus New Year's. All that stuff. Until next week. Bye.