 Welcome to this edition of Ableton on Air, the one and only program that focuses on the needs, concerns, and achievements of the definitely able. I've always been your host, Lauren Seiler. Arlene is off today. On this fantastic episode, we will focus on the Me Too Orchestra. What are they, who are they, and what they represent here in Vermont. Welcome. Thank you. Ms. Caroline Whitten. Good to see you. Mr. Ronald Brownstein and Caroline Whitten to Ableton on Air. Good to see you. Welcome. Thank you very much. What are the missions and goals of the Me Too Orchestra? Well, our mission is to, through supportive ensembles and rehearsals and performances, to erase the stigma surrounding mental health issues. And our goals really are, it's multi-layered. We have certain goals within our orchestras, and that comes about because we have people who are living with mental illnesses and people who don't have a diagnosis. And what we want to show there is that people can work very well side by side whether or not there's a mental health diagnosis involved because a lot of people in our community don't recognize that that's possible. Why is, why is it the fact that they don't recognize certain things within our orchestras? I think because we don't have these conversations, we don't have these conversations, people are afraid due to the stigma and potentially discrimination surrounding a mental health diagnosis. They don't talk about what they might be living with. And because it's a silent issue, people rely, they form their opinions around say bipolar disorder or schizophrenia around what they hear on the news or see in a movie. And it's a very distorted viewpoint. Now both of you can answer this, what is some of the history of Me Too? How did you guys get started? Well we got started in 2011 and I'd had a history over my career, very uneven, very high points and very low, the best orchestras in the world and then under the bridge for extended periods. And you've worked in Europe and some other places as well. Yeah, a lot of very fancy places and then very not fancy situations. And at a certain point I just got fed up with it, with being discriminated against. So I decided to create my own orchestra created with people like myself. At the beginning it was just for me to kind of feel a space that I was safe in, that I wouldn't be judged, that I wouldn't be analyzed or discriminated against. And I found that very, very healing and originally it really was for me to heal myself. But as I felt more comfortable sharing myself as a musician and as a person, as someone living with bipolar disorder, I found there are many people like me and they started to come to this orchestra. And it grew from there. It's now grown to almost 50 people in Burlington alone and then about 50 in Boston. So how do you, just to both of you, how do you really educate people in your work of me too? Because I understand that you, there's personal stories that people give and so on and so forth. So you want to take that. Yeah, I think the education happens when you create an environment that is safe and stigma-free so that people, if they want to discuss their diagnosis or maybe what they're feeling on any given day, that they feel safe enough to do that. You can give somebody all the literature in the world, but until they meet somebody who's living with like Ronald, bipolar disorder and they see that that person does not look like what I saw on television last night or whatever, that it makes it real and immediate. And that's where people start to learn and shed all these negative ideas that they have associated with the diagnosis. And since you said negative, because a lot of people sometimes are scared of people with mental illness and we've had numerous shows on suicide prevention and other things with mental illness. What are some of the misconceptions around people, especially when you first meet them? Well I think that a lot of people, largely because of media, is they are perceived as being violent, violent and not to be trusted and somehow criminal, they'll break up your house, they'll do everything, but actually more often than not people living with a mental illness are more often the victim of a crime rather than a protagonist. What do you mean by protagonist? Exactly. They're a victim, not so much a perpetrator of a house. Okay, that's what I know. Now in terms of music, right, because this past week we went to the Barry Alper House and we saw in metaphor we're going to roll some of that footage, what is your favorite piece of music and how does music really help you get through your mental illness or dealing with me too? How does that help as far as music is concerned? Well my favorite piece is Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, especially the fourth movement because that's the biggest transformation breakthrough of expression up till the Fifth Symphony. All music was really created for classical court composers, kings and queens and they had to follow certain rules and everything was very codified and in Beethoven's Fifth Symphony it just bursts that in its self-expression, was the first concept of the composer as a romantic person who could express himself to his music. What's your favorite piece of music? I find that question really tough. I don't know that I have one favorite piece, it's usually whatever I happen to be listening to like in that moment it's my favorite. If I were going to be stranded on a desert island and had to have certain recordings I'd probably go, orchestrally I'd go with Brahms, maybe Mahler, one of the symphonies but it's tough, there's so much great music out there. In terms of, the Me Too started exactly when, when did it actually start? Our first rehearsal was in September 2011 here in Burlington, Vermont. Yeah, because you guys are originally from, you guys live in Massachusetts. Right now we live, yeah we live just outside of Boston in Massachusetts but we started the Me Too organization here in 2011 and we branched out with an additional orchestra in Boston in the fall of 2014. Now you've worked professionally in Europe and you've, have you worked with or collaborated with any other people who are famous artists like Ben Jealous? Well let's see, I've conducted many of the great orchestras of the world, I conducted the Berlin Philharmonic when I was 23 and I conducted the San Francisco Symphony and the Stuttgart Radio Orchestras and many radio orchestras in Switzerland and in Norway and in Israel and in Japan. I had the great honor and privilege of being an apprentice of Herbert von Karjan who was the greatest musician of the century by all means and he mainly taught me how to listen to get the orchestra to listen to each other which has really become a main theme in Me Too experience not only to listen to each other in the music but to actually hear each other as people. So that's... Because when you have, when someone has a challenge it's great to, it's good, really good to be a good listener because once you are a good listener you know it, it brings forth you know not only do you get to collaborate with people but you get to you know just listen to what they have to say you know they're not there it's like counseling right you have to be a good listener to understand and music for you is like is like counseling if you will pretty much because you're you're channeling your energy you're challenging you know you're challenging yourself into persevering despite your challenge right I think you hit on something really important and something that certainly I experience when I happen to be playing in the orchestra I I live with the challenges of anxiety this anxiety disorder every day but you know what I can't think about that if I'm playing Beethoven there's no room for anxiety when you're playing Beethoven you're just so focused on what's going on in that moment focused on what he's doing on the podium focused on the the sounds around you in the orchestra so it's I don't know that it's so much an escape but it's definitely the opportunity to kind of let the rest of that go and be right there in that moment with other people I know we still have some time left but what is some advice you can professional advice that you can give to people out there who are living with all your own personal advice who are living with mental illness or mental challenges because I'm another question is have you and you can answer it or not but have you always lived with bipolar disorder and I've been living with a bipolar disorder since 1985 and it's been a rough road but in the last six years it's been one study even spell and I'm working with that and you have support yeah I've supported my excellent psychiatrist and psychiatrist support as well yeah so it all kind of comes together I just wanted to get back to what you asked about advice yes and I think the first advice is to as you said get get the right people in your your team you need a dedicated partner who's not only dedicated and loves you but is interested in really finding out what it's all about the nuts and bolts how to take care of you at home and then you need a good psychiatrist who you trust and you do exactly what they say you don't not willy-nilly about when to take the medication you have to follow that person and if you don't you should just simply get another psychiatrist as far as going forward once you're stable I think as far as finding a finding your way into music I think the first thing would be to get a fulfilling job that that fulfills your your your interest and your desires to contribute to society and then third would be music because music is really has to be held up supported by all of those other things as far as music those I think someone would come and play with us because it's such a low pressure and very enjoyable a supportive environment so I would never go any further than that just because also historically music has helped lots of people I mean you have Beethoven who was who was deaf you have many other musical people such as Julio Glacius and the opera singer name it I can't name them up on my head they're all they're all they're all individuals yeah and they they persevered despite their challenges right exactly oh I see what you mean yeah in terms of persevering you know despite their deafness or despite you know what they've gone through they they they have huge histories in music I mean music brings out the best in people you know as they say making me beautiful sometimes making beautiful music together helps you know it's a great mode of expression so in terms of me too where where is your next I mean what are your real future goals with me too organization well the immediate one are to create many affiliate organizations which which are not full orchestras because that's very daunting an idea we started small with just a small group of people and then we grew over time and now we have an orchestra we're creating affiliate organizations with just maybe a few people like five or seven that start the germ and they they they have the same philosophies and mission as we do they use our name and they grow from there little by little so that over time there will be many many me too orchestras but at this point we're just starting to spread small ones to give them place to start from now in terms of collaborations I understand this past Sunday you guys worked with Washington County mental health to put on this show why did you guys decide to do that was there a main reason behind collaborating with Washington County mental health well they actually extended the invitation to us and we were thrilled we had never played in Washington County and certainly they suggested the opportunity to play at the very opera house which for us is was fabulous so once they extended the invitation we just start going back and forth and working on you know how to build the audience how to promote the concert and it ended up being a great collaboration and that's the kind of thing we've done with other especially mental health organizations around the state of Vermont what are some of the ones that you know some of the concerts that you've because you you were a Colchester yesterday with Woodside Juvenile Rehabilitation Center which is is is you know a challenging and a wonderful venue for us we play in their gymnasium when we go there and it's operated by the Department of Children and Families so we're that's an opportunity for us to play with a population of you know 20 or fewer teens who are in the custody of DCF and you know Barna and they are all receiving some type of treatment for trauma or some type of diagnosis that they've they've received throughout what are normally very difficult childhoods for those that just a little interesting question a little fun question those that want to get into music despite their challenges what are some of the pros and cons of your because you you know I mean you're a conductor and you've you work with me to what are some of the challenges of working in music just for not forgetting challenges but like working in music on a general people that want to become musicians yeah just quit it's too hard it's just just just to become a musician yeah requires so much discipline I mean you need to be able to be willing to really donate your life to music in a way that few other fields demand minimum of you know years ten thousand hours a year in the practice room just just perfecting your skill and because being a conductor is just not waving your hand is doing so yeah well it's it's about communicating yeah that's more than just hands and feet yeah and it's um it's the whole whole being because there's pros and cons to everything you know it's true what what has been your most your best performance that you did that me too did like the absolute best do you want to take that I think we would both say the same thing probably don't say it at the same time no what your question lead in the side-by-side well for me the the the scene I would say the side-by-side concert which which took place last year and we brought we brought the musicians from Boston up to Burlington to literally sit side-by-side on the stage at the Flynn Center in Burlington and we performed together yeah and it was this amazing confluence of seeing kind of all the relationships in each of those orchestras then collide you know together and all these new friendships being formed each of the orchestras had had rehearsed the same music separately but then to bring that together on one stage and this huge orchestra was just it was thrilling in a way that you know it's very different than other performances because they were really collaborating with each other yeah and making something just bigger than life does it get with your is it a moment asking this with your challenges does it get frustrating sometimes when you're on stage and how do you challenge block it out block it out or channel it channel your frustration I feel no frustration when I'm conducting I only feel this incredibly strong connection with with the text with the the music which has been handed down to us for two and 300 years it's so captivating and it's so that the world just all of my troubles and all of my challenges they just go to the ceiling and just leave me alone completely and then I have a golden hour for the hour after the concert which is just everything you feel so great about what you did and yeah it's nothing gets in my way if anything I can channel some of my my manic energy and also my depressive energy what's the difference if you don't mind me asking that question in your opinion what is it you said manic and depression manic depression or manic depressive well I feel like I can draw on my mania let me just rephrase that take your time I feel that that in some way I can use my mania that's not true either I don't use it help me with this way am I is this upsetting no not at all just trying to think I think it's hard to describe probably but yeah but but I mean I recognize feeling sad feeling feeling upset about something no no no yep my feeling upset or happy or sad nothing to do with it it's just the texts that I've inherited from the last 200 years but my mania when which is well controlled I can still draw on it and put it into that performance in the way that people I think people without it can't get it in there is is strongly on the depressed side I think that a lot of music is varied very let's just say sad and I feel that I can draw on my past sadness to get an insight into the music in a more deep way well there was two pieces in my mind that were extremely happy on on Sunday's performance the I don't know the name of top my head but the one syncopated clock the syncopated clock and the fireworks for the handle royal the handle royal fireworks piece yeah that was amazing and swan swan lake swan lake but because I had that towards the end it had that push push yeah so do you tend to do more happy pieces of music or a little bit of both of sad pieces of music because sad can turn into happy or I think that most pieces have a happy and a sad contained in them it's just have let me just start that one over go ahead it's fun because we're at it we we program we play pieces that are primarily sad did I say that well the world fireworks isn't just erase that I just said exactly the opposite we perform mainly pieces that are happy that are uplifting especially at the end of the concert we want the audience just to feel great about about the music and about the breakthroughs that that can happen through music but we also program more somber introspective music that you know that can you know reach people's more deeper emotions how do you Trent channel your anxiety through the me too performance oh boy it really is about getting kind of lost in the music for me it's it's really because the anxiety is something that's kind of on my shoulder and always there and it you know gets worse and better at different times but what do you do with me too well actually play French horn in the orchestra oh yeah not you know not every concert not every piece but but my background is in music as well so I studied French horn and and it's been a real treat for me to play with this orchestra because I actually had given up performing for 18 years I didn't I didn't touch a horn and it was because all of my experiences around orchestral playing up until that point had made my anxiety worse I was having panic attacks I just I was not happy and then Ronald came into my life and he had this vision about creating an orchestra where that kind of stress wouldn't be a part of the of the mix that you know the whole function would be to be supporting each other and celebrating our our achievements and what we can do on the instruments and with that in mind I went out and bought an old horn and started playing again and so for me for me it's really been music on its head so you've really channeled your bad anxiety good anxiety and so on yeah I mean it's funny that music used to be such so challenging for my anxiety and now it's actually more of an escape and a way for me to kind of soothe myself actually yeah so do you tend to like happy pieces of music or sad pieces of music? You know I think as a brass player we tend to we tend to really enjoy playing the things that are big and happy and and brassy you know and have big notes at the end and and that's that's a lot of fun to play as an audience member though I enjoy those those numbers as well but I also enjoy like a big lush string piece that that maybe provides me with a space to be a little more introspective and kind of think through some things that I'm feeling and yeah so you know it's it's all it's all good and has its place. So why did you join me too was there I mean I know Ronald came into your life but what what was the main reason that really drew you into the Me Too organization? I think it was because Me Too gave me a chance to rediscover my love of music without all the anxiety and depression that I had been experiencing before when I played. It was really taking taking music and and just dropping it into a completely new stigma-free setting and for me since I hadn't had that for a couple of decades before I really I didn't care about music as much but this for me I was watching Ronald you know working with the orchestra over the weeks and thinking for the first time in two decades that I really wanted to be making music again. But what made you really quit or you know all kidding aside you know you said quit in the middle in the beginning of the interview. Yeah yeah well and I think it gets back to what Ronald was saying I mean it's such a tough way to make a living and that I'm the child of musicians and I always thought that I would this that's how I would make a living that I would be playing the French war to making a living and the reality of that is that it's it's incredibly stressful and incredibly difficult to get a good-paying job. Yeah in certain cities I've seen walking in New York because I'm originally in New York right and here in Vermont you see people with the guitar cases in the street and people throw money at you know because they're trying to make some money at what they do. And often they can make more money playing you know gigging out on the street busking as they say out on the street for a few hours that somebody can do you know teaching lessons or whatever. Have you done that? I haven't done it because I never got you know I played for a couple years after college but really never was in a position where I had to make my living just playing music and for me I reached that point where the panic and anxiety I had around it was so great that I discovered that I really love the administrative side of things and how you know these challenges like how do you build an organization? How do you raise the money? How do you market it to people? So I started going into that side. So you didn't start you didn't start as a struggling musician right? Well I guess I I thought that was gonna be my start that's how it was gonna be but I got out pretty quickly. Did you did you have any struggling moments in your in your career at first? Not at first I think that I went to Juilliard yes and then after I graduated I won first prize gold medal in the most important conducting competition in the world. Which is what? The Herbert von Karjan international conducting competition and it's held in Berlin with the Berlin Philharmonic and so me it went off like a you know like a rocket and it was that way you know for many years until I started to have you know people would say something's wrong here it's going too high he's just off the charts and they started to lose confidence in me because they couldn't handle me and then there would also be periods where I would you know just be so tired I could barely get out of bed when I'm depressed and I couldn't go I would become get paranoid and think that there were conspiracy theories against me and all of these kind of things so paranoia of it yeah of being one did you ever have any when I would when I would be in a rough period I started to feel paranoid it was often well-based have you ever had any paranoia on stage no no I don't feel anything on stage no I'm only feeling the interaction with the musicians and hoping that the audience can can feel the same thing before we end and we show the footage of the Barry Opera House can you tell us where people can reach you at me too if they want to get in touch absolutely yeah we are our website is www.metooorchestra and that's ME and the numeral to orchestra.org so very easy to find us online the phone number there is actually my cell phone number 802 238-8369 and and all the email contact information is there as well so we'd love to hear from people okay let's take a look at some footage from the Barry Opera House and the Me Too organization let's take a look at this like to say thank you again thank you for having us with a Me Too organization well that puts an end to this edition of Ableton on Air I'm Lauren Seiler see you next time play some music