 Welcome back to the breakfast and plus TV Africa. We head straight to our second conversation where we look at the fight against corruption. Now if you follow very well when President Muhammad Buhari came through in 2015 one of his campaign promises was the fight against corruption and that has actually to some people recorded some kind of success and to others it has been very biased. Now just to you know fast forward to what's been happening there's been several reports from the Auditor General of several you know fonts that have been misused by different bodies and what have you. We're just going to be looking at you know the fight against corruption according to the President Muhammad Buhari's campaign promises. How far have we fed and we do have gentlemen who will be joining the conversation this morning. Al-Fal, we have Awal, Raf and Sanjani who will be joining the conversation this morning and we'll also have Eze as well or Yed Peri. He's also a guest joining us via Zoom. Good morning gentlemen it's good to have you join us this morning. All right so let's start with Ibrahim Musa. Can you hear me? Yeah I can hear you very well. All right then so how would you describe you know the fight the fight against corruption I mean the President Buhari administration he came through power and he said that one of the things that he would do would be you know fight corruption. There have been a lot of persons that have been mentioned least of governors I mean some cases have been convicted but to some people he has not been very fair there's been some kind of unfairness not balance you know the fight against corruption but really really for the past years that we have right now six and counting how far would you describe the fight against corruption of President Buhari? I think the fight against corruption under this administration still remains campaign more of a campaign issue because the government actually did not prepare to really put in place system and processes and even you know strengthening the legal framework to fight corruption. It was a very juicy topic or issue to convince Nigerians that because Nigerians are really sick and tired of corruption and they just captured that sentimental moment to build on on their campaign so if you look at the government effort in terms of the fight against corruption it didn't show that in-depth commitment to really fighting corruption because so far legal system or existing legal system that needed to really help to deepen the fight against corruption have not been really taught. We still talking about you know the government that is fighting corruption was out to self-blowing regime we're still thinking about a government that supposed to be fighting corruption that still lapses their in its operation in the fight against corruption. We struggle as civil society to convince the regime to have national strategic document on the fight against corruption but that document you know has remained more of like a just one of those document that have been kept you know in the shelves. Thirdly there's no way you can fight corruption one procurement system in the country remains one of the worst system that allows more corruption in the place. As a result of the corruption in the country the escalator in the country has rather become more vulnerable because procurement of arms that are supposed to be bought I'll never see the light of the day just recently as part of this audit report under the police who are supposed to have equipment and the facilities for the Nigerian police ten contractors who are supposed to be given that contract only one person came up with ten companies I mean the same addresses the same telephone number since 2019 nobody has brought in any items and this was of billions and nobody is saying anything about that there's no way you can say you are fighting corruption one battery everywhere in the government other at the federal state and local government corruption you know is really happening with the impunity so in terms of legal framework we have legal framework that is completely not being respected or regarded the public procurement law the physical responsibility the even the money to law and part number of the anti-corruption you know framework that supposed to help the government is completely in disregard more importantly the code of conducts that is supposed to even be supported by the government really quite corruption because if you are thinking about part of fighting corruption the code of conduct must be strengthened right now as I speak to you they don't have any resources to even investigate claims of the public office or you know who supposed to file their you know assets declaration so if you are talking about fight against corruption in Nigeria you are going to look at various aspects would when you look at it it didn't really tally despite the commitment made by the Bahari in 2016 in the anti-corruption conference in London would transplants international and British government organized all those issues that the Nigerian government committed to up to now we have not seen the seriousness in which the government is been dealing with it so in totality when you look at the part against corruption of this administration I think you know it remains at just upwards to recover assets that have been stolen by corrupt leaders of yesterday and today looters are busy also struggling to loot the recovered asset and that is why you do not even have a legal framework on how to manage the recovered asset asset will be recovered and it will be looted again so the part against corruption of this administration it has remained as far as I'm concerned it can pen you know issue in terms of practicalizing it we have not seen seriousness at what the government is doing previous administration have ensured that we have even the legal framework under this administration even though the general office that is supposed to be strengthened to make sure that you know it is really given they cannot hide that we are looking for it is not been given that much attention and consideration so corruption is going on you know was it was impunity in the country and government cannot be telling people that they are fighting corruption every day you open newspaper you listen to radio and TV you know it is about looting and corruption in public sector so there's no way all right I'm Mr. Ralph St. Johnny kindly hold on let's let's bring in them is the only query who is also part of the conversation this morning miss on a career I want I want you know us to focus on the Auditor General's angle because in the last few days like I mentioned earlier the Auditor General's office has put out his report of 2021 and even previous years you know and has detailed billions and billions of Naira that seem to have been you know simply you know misappropriated you know from the police to the National Assembly to customs and immigration and the likes but we currently are in a country that would hear about these funds being missing misused and whatnot and nothing seems to happen there is no further investigation by the corruption agencies or by the Nigerian government we simply just move on like it's a part of our lives to hear that billions of Naira have gone missing so Mr. Iqbal what then is the use of the Auditor General's office if the government doesn't bother taking action good morning and let me start by saying that corruption has been institutionalized and made systemic in Nigeria by the President's administration it was very convenient for the government to simply use the mantra of fighting corruption to win elections and thereafter like a piece of paper put it back into the shelves lock up the shelves and forget it comments strictly or straightforward to the office of the Auditor General it was the Auditor General finishes his work the PSE public accounts committee in the senator house of reps who was back we are bound to take it up look at the issues for that and ensure that public monies have been recovered but now the 2019 report is telling us about what is going on the fraud going on in the National Assembly there always is a very big question if the National Assembly that is supposed to be to exercise oversight and help in recovering looted funds is now deeply mentioned corruption then there is a very huge challenge if you recall the Auditor General's office is not just like any other anti-corruption agency it's not politicized it's a very professional office where what they simply do is to look at your records and accounts as presented by the office they look at it vis a vis the financial regulations and the various laws and policies on financial prudence and anti-corruption and once they find a gap what they simply do is to send an audit query another query simply to say please explain what has happened we think you have violated these policies or laws and it is only when you fail to provide satisfactory explanation that Auditor General now puts it in his final report which is forwarded to the National Assembly and the expectation is that all those that were indicted will definitely be made to answer and provide any other information they have to the DAC following which the recommendations of Auditor General will be implemented unfortunately we have a year after a year repeat of the same felonies financial felonies and misdemeanors all the offenses you found that were committed in the 2016 audit report you find them repeated in 2017 you found them repeated in 2018 as well as in 2019 so the question is what exactly is going on that the Auditor General is supposed to be a very big bulldog that can bite but in Nigeria we've rendered uttered office stupidness that it can no longer you know give sanctions we have a situation where what we're even discussing are those who have money to report over 260 something agencies as reported in the last Auditor General's report simply refuse to report because what we're discussing is that if I report then you begin to look at the infractions I've committed if I fail to report if I know I've committed big financial felonies I'll simply ignore your failure to report as many agencies have done and there is no penalty nothing is even done against those who have failed to report unfortunate Dr. General either forgets or fails to even put the name of those agencies that have failed to report in his report so we are only discussing those who have reported those who didn't report nothing is happening to them the National Assembly under Syracuse had amended the audit law okay brought forward a new audit legislation with two cognizance of best practices in modern auditing and by that it gave Auditor General powers to sanction it also freed Auditor General from going cap in hand to the executives to beg for money I mean you can imagine that agency that comes to your accounts to use it and comb it if you are also the one to give it the resources to comb the account you definitely on the phone because you know that you're being corrupt and the more you empower that office definitely the more likelihood that somebody in your office or you yourself will go to jail so there has been a deliberate attempt to under form the two constitutional anti-corruption agencies these admit mainly the court of conduct as well as the Auditor General's office so the president refused to give assent to that bill as was sent to him by the eight national assembly and the current national assembly from the last of the Auditor General's conference the conference of the Auditor General for the federation and that of the statistic of the Auditor General's the president simply said that they are still considering an executive bill to send to the national assembly so even the private members bill in the national assembly is permitted nothing is being done to checkmate it and beyond of the Auditor General let me give you one instance of the most grand corruption going on in Nigeria in 2015 before the current administration came in Nigeria was reported to be consuming about 35 million liters of PMS every day and on the basis of that subsidy was being claimed by both the NFPC and other privates as since who were importing fast forward to today we've had two recessions more factory closures greater unemployment you know so we are now being reported by NFPC which is now the sole reporter as doing between 55 and 60 million liters of PMS you consume PMS when there are more cars on the road you consume it when there are more factories you consume it when there are more people in jobs so there is about 25 to 30 million liters of PMS upon which NFPC is fraudulently claiming subsidy and that's why we have been shooting up to almost 1.8 to 2 trillion naira every year so in essence all right what is happening is that the corruption has been systemized corruption has been made systematic by the Buhari administration despite all pretensions that they are fighting corruption all right hold on the same way all right okay so um let's also bring him bring in ibrahim moosa now the anti-corruption crusade of this administration is hinge on several policies the whistleblowing policy and the biometric data verification and the treasury signing account signing i'd like you to you know share your thoughts on this how far do you think this is actually you know helped in the fight against corruption well the biometric you know that's the bpn bank verification is actually introduced by the previous administration and the current administration continue with that which is also good but the single treasury account was also introduced by this government but however um analysts you know have come up with facts and figures that the single treasury account it doesn't simply even work because many ministries and prostitutes they had found a better way to start one public task per money what they do they create what they call um project accounts and this run into billions you know and this project account is handled by individuals and you know corruption and the abortion of these funds continue unabated uh so yes the government uh claim that they want to introduce whistleblowing policy the whistleblowing policy it has also more like date it's a dead policy because it is not being practicalized it has lost all the necessary ingredients for any see those whistleblowing you know um regime to have we have a deal in the national assembly introduced under the um the previous administration the government did not support it did not back it to have a legal most sustainable legal framework because the policy that you have now is not been actually parties and is not even you know um it doesn't meet the best international parties which we also know so the part against corruption of this government that's why I said they are ill-prepared they just you know um use that sentiment of um the fact that corruption is a major uh uh you know problem we had you know stop development or that's even create the insecurity in the country and they capitalize on that and you know so far when it comes to real practicing the um the part against corruption you don't really see much uh you have a situation whereby people who are even under this administration they are being accused of corruption and shamelessly they are not being bothered they are not even bothered to resign no of them they are you know uh enjoying themselves and some of them who are under this administration working under this administration they even appeared in one of the global scandal uh which is um paradise and panama and you know uh uh uh uh also the global scandal and nobody has asked them to resign nobody has asked them to explain what they have done and yet they are serving under a government that is fighting corruption like I said flagrant abuse of public procurement law is going on you know um in this country in fact some of the ministers who have been accused by this government that is just to tell you how this government you know is taking anti-corruption as a joke you accuse some of the people that you are that they are serving you here yesterday of corruption and today they are made ministers they are made to have high-profile position so how will ever somebody how will ever somebody take you serious that you have ministers who their cases are still in the you know um anti-corruption and in some of them in court and yet the other one now rolling the government this is just a joke so I think you know in my opinion the current administration is not prepared to fight corruption in Nigeria they are only focusing on recovering assets stolen by the yesterday looters and today looters are in charge of it that is why today up to now nobody will tell you how much asset had been recovered domestically and internationally okay and as a matter of fact as a matter of fact we apologize because we honestly have just about a minute left um on the conversation and I want to to bring in Mr Yakeberry um you know for some balance uh before we say goodbyes this morning um so Mr Yakeberry please um share with us because obviously this is a conversation that could go on for hours um just looking at the debt um through um to which it goes and you know the the massive massive corruption that we're talking about here Nigeria still is going out to borrow money from international organizations and from the from other countries to fund projects um Mr Yakeberry can you in any way just in a minute max you know share with us the the the um amount of corruption you know that we're dealing with here and how much more value we would do how much more money we would save if we simply put systems in place to stop these things from happening oh definitely we can save money running into trillions for instance in the first subsidy scam we could possibly save more than a trillion if we simply declare the PMS we are consuming and focus the subsidy on it secondly we could also gain about two trillion in new revenue if all ministries departments and agencies and paracetals are put on the actual TSA not the kind of TSA my brother or Sanjani is talking about so that all government revenues right now there is a rule that you don't spend more than 50 percent of your revenue 50 percent come to government 50 percent you can spend if all these revenues come to government you will get an additional about two trillion so it will reduce the money if we are actually to go out to borrow that we need to borrow or we may even don't have the need to borrow again all right um it's a it's a really really sad story and once again you know the reason for this conversation is you know was you know a lot of questions as to the relevance of the auditor general's office and the auditor general's report um you know and if a government doesn't take action after such damning reports are put out then well for to use really is that office um and and you know how sincere really is any government that says it is fighting corruption um Eze and Yekperi thank you very much for your time this morning we look I look forward to speaking with you again I would like to have another conversation on this and of course while Ibrahim Musa Rafsan Jani is executive director of SISLAC and head of transparency international Nigeria thank you very much also for your time all right I think we've lost sound from there thank you also to our viewers this morning um for joining us and for being a part of the conversation if you would like to catch up if you missed out on any of these uh discussions you know where to find us simply it's at plus tv africa and facebook and instagram and do not forget to subscribe youtube channel it's at plus tv africa uh plus tv africa lifestyle as well I am messia boko you'll have a fantastic day ahead and I am Osawa Yee of Bahwa good morning