 Thank you all for tuning in today to this panel on diversity inclusion issues in the asset management industry. Women and people of color are severely underrepresented in the asset management industry, particularly among the ranks of portfolio managers and executive leadership. Many firms have increased their focus on addressing this over the past year and a half, but the industry still has a long way to go. We've got a great group of panelists here to discuss this important topic. With us today is Jose Manaya, CEO of Nuvine. Jose also serves as the executive sponsor for the Inclusion and Diversity Initiative at TIAA, which aims to promote a diverse and inclusive environment throughout the company. We've got Rupal Bansali, Chief Investment Officer and Portfolio Manager of International and Global Equities at Aerial Investments. Rupal is also one of the 2% of female portfolio managers independently managing a mutual fund in the US. We've also got Seema Hingarani, Managing Director of Morgan Stanley Investment Management. Seema is also the founder and chair of Girls Who Invest, a nonprofit focused on increasing the number of women in portfolio management and executive leadership in the asset management industry. And finally Juan Martinez, Vice President, Chief Financial Officer and Treasurer of the Knight Foundation, which today released a research report on representation of asset management firms on by women and racial and ethnic minorities on the manager rosters of the nation's largest charitable foundations. Before we get started, I'd like to remind the audience that you can submit questions through the chat box on your screen. To kick off this session, I'd like to ask each of our panelists for their insight on why it has taken the industry so long to address this issue. Are the steps firms are now taking, firms and investors now taking enough? To get started Juan, what are your thoughts on this? So thank you, Daniel. I appreciate the invitation, the opportunity to speak to this great, among this great panel and to the audience. So, I just sort of lay the groundwork with a couple of studies and I foundation is done so in 2017 night looked at overall assets under management by women in diverse owned funds, you on US based assets, and that was about and the overall percentage was was 0.9% of all AOM in 2019 we repeated that study and found that it was 1.3%. That's a, that's a tiny percentage. Some have asked, well, why did you look at ownership versus in portfolio managers or folks within diversity within the investment management field or area specifically. And that's because that data is not easily not readily available and not broadly available. So, I would say that one of the things that I that I see is that because that data isn't broadly available. It's hard to measure it's hard, you know, and in a, in a highly quantitative field like finance. The other thing that that tends to be true is that you don't get what you don't measure. So, sort of lack of data is is one thing. And then I think understanding the criteria that investment that asset allocators used in order to make asset allocation decisions and what the basis is of those whether it's preference or actual quantitative effect I think is important and I think asset allocators are just beginning to think to ask themselves that question. Thanks Juan. What is your perspective on this. Well, you know the stats are not just ugly. They are embarrassing. I mean less than 1.5% of assets in our $63 trillion industry managed by diverse firms. I mean if that isn't the definition of tokenism. I don't know what is, but I think the question was, you know, why is it taken so long to address this lack of diversity. I think it's because our industry has accepted excuses as explanations. And we've settled for rhetoric in the form of speeches and pledges instead of results. So, here's what I think people who want to walk the walk, instead of just talking the talk can do. There was a CIO who had a vacant position in his team. And so he told his team that he wanted to recruit a diverse person and, you know, gave them the mandate to do so. They went back for a couple of weeks and tried, and then they go back to the CIO and told him well, can you relax this constraint this condition because you know we can't find anybody. So the team, well, that's all right, you know, come back to me when you can in the meantime, divvy up the work amongst yourselves and you know when you recruit that person, you can hand it off. Miraculously, they found a person the very next month, a very capable diverse woman of color. So I think the reality is, when it starts hurting you personally, that's when it becomes your problem, and you suddenly develop a sense of urgency and intensity, you know, to fix it. So I think in my opinion, that's what it's going to take, you know, can people actually have incentives and disincentives. And I think that sort of agenda needs to be set by the top, just like the CIO did. And it's a question of setting targets and timelines and holding themselves and their managers accountable for missing or meeting them through a set of incentives and disincentives. So I think short of that will shortchange the industry, and we'll be having the same panel over and over again, unless that changes. So it's again to Juan's point, having metrics having disclosure making them measurable making them meaningful. That's what it's going to take. Thanks. Jose, what are your thoughts on this. Why is it taking the industry so long to address these issues and is it enough what firms are doing right now. The thing is, the industry has been aware of these issues for quite a while and I would say, you know, across the organizations across asset managers, there's been a will and an intent to, to change, to change the dialogue here and to change the narrative. And what comes down here is two things and we've all hit on one of them. It's the sense of urgency, right. I think the reality is that the industry is now realizing this is a bottom line issue, right, not just in terms of the profile of our clients and the demographics there. Firms who are not doing this well are quickly learning, you're not going to get the capital if you don't do this. So that sense of urgency and alignment to the bottom line is critical. That's been slow to happen. And I do think now there's kind of more appreciation and acceleration behind it. I think the other thing which is very typical of our industry. It's our process right we I see it in the same thing with inclusive capital. And kind of what our investment process is, we typically stick to the same process. And I think you have to reimagine the process and figure out their pools of talent out there. How do you get at them for us. It was recognizing that while we got diverse slates of candidates, the people doing the interview. We're not diverse themselves and they were often line managers that came in with their own biases. It's a realization that we needed to be more aggressive so often you're saying well there's a lot that turn over isn't big in the asset management space. And, you know, an iron we're growing my viewpoint is we're not going to go recruit based on a role. Right so we kind of we flipped it and said we're going to engage with recruiters and others and say, we're looking for top talent. I don't, I don't know we have roles available. Some are designed today some we will reimagine but if you find me strong talent that is diverse. We're going to reimagine kind of how we're stabbed and what we do to bring that to bring that talent in. I think the last one has been which is probably been the most affected is you know we often the other thing we do with our process we fish in the same pools, we go to the same schools. We go to the same associations. And to me was around how do we find broader pools and where we found our best pool was from aligning our staff and our people and say you are our best recruiters and making that be part of their roles and bringing that in. And look there's nothing like your own your own employees to hold you accountable as they're bringing people in who they feel are talented in the industry and kind of saying okay well why if there's no traction there why is there no traction. So, big thing is urgency, which is a bottom line issue and that's going to drive the urgency and the rest of it is, you have to change your process of the way things have been done for the last 50 plus years, and how you go attract that talent. Thanks Jose. And Seema do you have anything to add. Well, I mean everything that's been said so far as my completely agree with. And it's, by the way thank you for inviting me to join this panel and be amongst friends here. I think, you know, back in 2013 2014 when I was the chief investment officer of the New York City pension funds. This is where I started asking the question of all the asset managers who are then coming to meet with me. And at the time, you know I was managing $160 billion portfolio along with our team and our trustees. So we're the fourth largest US public pension plan at that time and still today I believe. And so every asset manager come meet with me sit down. You know, interested in managing, managing New York City's money I get to the organizational chart and look down on it and say, oh my God you guys where all the women on your investment team. Right so back then I was asking about not a lot of LPs. I don't think we're asking those questions, certainly not the way they are now you cannot get into a meeting with an LP without in the first five minutes, then asking you, what's going on here. The investment teams diversity and senior levels management, you know, promotion policies retention policies I mean now we're getting a lot more detail which frankly I think it's great. And now that I've been at Morgan Stanley investment managers one of the things that we're working on, you know with me there is is we want to take a leadership position on being more transparent and providing this data and basically saying to our clients hey look. I'm not so great right now these numbers but here's what we're doing to make them better. And here are our targets, because Rupal said this we've got to put out targets. Oh by the way, now hold this accountable. And I think the whole industry needs to do that we're not doing we were not doing this not even really talking about it as much, you know, seven eight years ago. Lots happened, which is good. You know, to Jose's point, girls don't invest in my starting that organization was because I saw what I saw in that seat as CIO and then I heard from all the leaders of our industry pretty much that said the reason why seem as because we don't get resumes from women. You know, of course, we know the women are out there I knew the women were out there it's just our industry to Jose's point was doing the same thing over and over again for decades in terms of how they were recruiting talent. They would go to these four colleges or five colleges to recruit, and they would go to two year investment banking programs. And so as I learned more about that I just, I just asked them I said well that's what you're doing no wonder having a problem with diversity. So, let's go do the work, you know, but he had to do the work and I found that at the time, they really didn't want to do the work. And so I did the work. So I started this nonprofit. I focused on college women to create this pipeline of amazingly talented women to go into our industry and stay in it for a long time. And we went to every college at an application process. We found we find we continue to find we're in our sixth summer now we continue to find gems across this country because we know they're out there. And that's what we're doing. And so if you look at the cohorts and you know, in six years we put nearly 1000 women through my college summer programs both online and on campus. 60 to 70% of these women are staying in the investment business getting multiple offers from the great firms out there amongst many of us right here and firms we're at. But, but importantly, the diversity of our cohorts are women is the most meaningful to me personally, especially. So, these women come over come from over 60 different colleges across the United States, 25% of those schools are public universities. 20% of the women have identified as historically underrepresented minorities of black women Latina women and we're going to get better and better on that metric as well. And we're measuring all of this stuff of course 25% of the women identified as socioeconomically disadvantaged in over 50 different majors of study so we're taking the English majors the biology majors chemistry majors and the business and finance majors. I was a psychology philosophy major undergrad I never took a finance or a kind of class ever till I got to business school I love being an investor. So that was the plan and that's what we've been executing on. And look the firm has the industry has responded. We now have 110 partner firms around the world hiring our women. And this is just going to continue we have 150 women full time in our industry in five years working on investment teams right now and there's hundreds more behind. We're investing the pipeline right I think many more of us have figured out that now you know we need to recruit more diversity in. And how can we do that and we have organizations like girls invest in Tweego and SEO and the Greenwood project in other areas. And that's fantastic. But clearly now we have an issue of how do we keep them in the industry and we all need to focus on that too so I look I, I've, I've been encouraged by what I've seen in our industry for the last six years and what I've done with girls who invest, but we clearly have a long way to go and to the point of the amount of capital that women manage. I mean, I put out a 30 by 30 vision for girls who invest have 30% of the world's investable capital managed by women by 2030 you've heard the numbers are ready I mean these numbers are low single digits right now and and ruffles a shining star of the incredible talented women we out there we have out there managing money and I mean again you think about it, more diverse teams get better outcomes we've read all that research, we've actually lived that I've lived that in my career and so either firms believe that and they've been moving forward on it, or they don't really believe it yet, and yet their clients are pushing them right now and saying if you don't do it, you know you don't believe it if you don't do it, I'm going to pull my money from you and I'm going to put it over there. So I think some of the asset owners out there and why and I were talking about this earlier need to keep pushing a lot of the asset managers and now that's I'm where I am right now and I think it's great for our industry. If I have one second I just wanted to follow up on on the point that SEMA and Jose were making with regards to the market, and the question that allocators are doing, or the questions that they're that they're asking. We just published another study today that really looked at that is night foundation that that really looked at the use or the investment by the top 55 foundation US based foundations, the investment their investments with women and diverse firms. And what we found was that about six, a little bit more than 16% of their of their US based assets were managed by women and diverse owned firms and so to me, that's not where we want to be and I think that they're still significant room for improvement. But it does show at Jose's point about the signal the market signal that that asset managers should be receiving that professionally managed sophisticated endowments are moving dollars are making commitments, and we hope that will be in an increasing rate with firms that value diversity. And so I think that in the long run those types of signals matter. But to Jose's point, this is not the this issue is not an issue that the asset management world has just discovered this is something and a SEMA point out. When she was when she was at New York. This is something that folks have known for a long time and and they need to be more proactive and intentional in addressing it. Follow up on that one. What are the challenges that are holding back some investors from moving more assets toward diverse managers who are aiming to do so. And why isn't the kind of why are investors moving more uniformly to do this. I'll, I'll, I'll point to three one, and I'll leave the I'll leave my least favorite in for the for the for the last right one is an issue of internal processes. That's the point right looking at what what your allocation criteria are with regards to size of initial investments how you structure those initial investments. I think that is, in many cases, it's almost like the old saying that you know you only get credit when you don't need credit. The asset allocator sometimes create rules for the way they want to allocate capital where new newer firms or firms that don't have a specific size. Don't, you know, can't qualify basically for for for the in those investment criteria. And it's interesting because in many cases asset allocators will say, well, some investment strategies are better or more optimal at lower fund sizes. And so it, it's a some way that in some regards as a sort of a cognitive dissonance there right in that argument. The second thing is that the sort of you're fishing from the same pond. The question of how do you find new managers, and what is the network of new manager of of that you're looking at where are you trying to find new managers we constantly say that we're trying to identify new and uncorrelated sources of alpha, but we asked people who have the same exact pedigree to deliver those uncorrelated new returns. And the last one as I mentioned this is my least favorite of all is that there continues to be a sort of in the back of people's minds this pernicious idea that you have to have a concessionary return, or accept concessionary return to come with diversity. Statistically, that's been disproven. Right. We, we did in the last study of the field wide study we did in 2019. We asked the folks who were conducting a study Josh learners group fellow research. Josh learner out of Harvard Business School. We asked them to do some additional statistical analysis on performance of diverse own firms that what we found was that the firms behaved statistically the same as non diverse firms that is the top quartile performing firms fit right into if not exceeded or overrepresented in the top quartile of all firms. And so you have this pernicious idea that that. Well, I would love to do this but I can't afford to give up returns when the evidence points. I do want to jump in on wants points because I think he he had all three points really well and I feel pretty passionate about these in that one is the whole point of again you go back to the process. And you know we we've tried to launch inclusive capital initiatives and that challenges is that investment process typically track record might be lacking at times. Typically there might be earlier stage type of investments. The structures may not fit in that traditional kind of private equity type of box so they look different and you have to kind of reimagine that so that's that is step one that's probably in my opinion. One of the biggest issues with it with inclusive capital is okay you have to look beyond that in some points it's okay how do we evaluate track records differently because there's a little bit of the chicken or the egg here in driving this. I think the other one is network, because I will tell you. Yeah, there are exceptions where we make investments in certain in certain vehicles that didn't have a track record, or had a very unique structure. But they came recommended through very reputable sources. And for investment professionals there's career capital and then there's investment capital. Career capital is says, how do I de risk this so nobody says what in what the heck when you thinking when you did this. Those those networks and those recommendations and referrals de risk a process for for an investment team very well in in doing that. And the last one is this whole point about returns and you know there's no more annoying question for me when I'm asked how many basis points are you willing to give up in order to improve diversity, not a single one. I have a fiduciary duty, I am not willing to give up a single basis point of return to improve our diversity profile, but I also have a strong belief that I don't have to that by increasing my diversity profile I keep looking at ESG as a whole. It's an alpha tool, you're mitigating risks, you're bringing in different ideas. Look at like look at your client segments look at where demographics are going alpha and diversity and it's tied together with investment performance and it's tied together to the bottom line I think those are these three big points that have kind of slowed down the ability to to to improve these numbers. So let me share my experience with you, because you know, I actually, when I joined aerial about a decade ago, I actually had a top decile track record. When I had the track record people said well build your team. I build my team. Then when I had the team and the track record they said, Oh, well, you're too small for us. You know some assets, you know, and and were somewhat successful. Then they said, Well, now you're too big for us. This is the emerging manager programs. I mean, this is an industry that has found a thousand ways to say no. And I will just say that it is about now creating accountability. It's about creating targets, you know, with defined timelines, because all of these excuses and I want to underscore. It's really excuses because there are people like me. Just last week, I'm on a nonprofit hundred women in finance, you know, where we try to empower women in finance in particular the investment management industry. And we just hosted a free cap intro fund women week conference, you know, for an entire week where we were able to match up, you know, 300 female fund managers, you know who looking to get introduced to capital allocators. And so the talent and the capabilities out there. It's the opportunity that's lacking. And I think exactly what Juan and then frankly Jose have been saying the process needs to change. Not the expectations in terms of the outcomes, I completely concur. This is not a mutually exclusive proposition, but in order to exceed your DEI objectives, you somehow have to sacrifice your investment return objectives. It's simply not the case. In fact, this is one instance where you can have your cake and eat it too. I think we just need to hold our capital allocators and our customers accountable for moving the needle now. And frankly, it's not just enough for a capital allocator, you know, to say that we want to do this and create targets. I think it's exactly what Jose said, you know, clients are demanding this. So I'm sure in your audience are a lot of people who are not capital allocators and we think, well, this is not my problem. It's for someone else to solve. I would say not at all. If you don't speak up, and there are three ways in which you can express, you know, your attitude and your desire for more diversity equity and inclusion hits through your voice. If you ask the questions, make yourself, you know, the squeaky wheel gets the most oil, right? So be that gap fly, ask those tough questions of your money managers and of your capital allocators and your employers as to what they're doing specifically. And beyond your voice, express your vote. There are lots of times where you can actually vote on these topics in surveys, in sort of internal employment engagement surveys or external surveys, express your vote. And then more importantly, vote with your wallet. I mean, move your dollars. And I think that's kind of what capital allocators will be attention to exactly as Jose said. I think all of us have to play a role. It's not the responsibility of just the manager just the process just the, you know, allocator or just the client, we all have to sort of get the sense of urgency and intentionality around doing something and just like Seema did you know she sort of realized, here's the problem and instead of complaining about the problem she kind of came up with a solution. We all need to do our bit. I would agree with that. Yes. And, and Rupa, I think you're right. This is an entire industry effort. And that's even how I saw girls invest, right, solving a pipeline issue getting more diverse talent in the door. It's clearly needed to be an industry wide effort. And I think going back to this idea of allocating capital to women and diverse own funds and managed funds. I call them constraints. So Jose talked about, you know, you have to have a certain track record certain level of a when you said the same thing and Rupa you've lived right so these are constraints though that some of the largest US public pension plans put on themselves. Right. And, and, and, you know, some people come guard rails was no these are constraints. They have to have a certain three year track record at least right to have different certain level of a when in order for them to even be considered. And so I actually before joining Morgan sailing investment management one of the reasons why I even met Dan Simcoe to run our business because I started a fund called seven step capital, which was to do day one investing. So seating women alternative managers who wanted to start their own funds, because New York City had a mandate to invest in women and minority on funds, not every fund out there not every public plan not every university and dominant foundation has a mandate specifically because that's what we did. And we did okay in public equities investing in that kind of manager and not so great in public fixed income and then alternatives it was like good luck trying to find and again it wasn't that they weren't out there, like just with girls invest they're out there. I knew we're all the women were right and they're super talented great pedigrees great track record just like people had and house and yet you know when these women think about hey you know what I want to start my own business. I want to do I want to be an entrepreneur I'm ready for that. You know look at my male counterparts, you know look at them doing it I'm as good or better than they are and they're out there raising capital. You know but then this is goes to get a little bit what Jose was saying in terms of what he's calling, you know, a network well men they have this great one. And you know they may not even know the guy right so they got introduced my buddy introduced me to this guy over here and they sit down and have a coffee together a bunch together and this guy across the table may not have even managed money before. Literally I've seen this happen. Right. And, and yet, you know, well, I like you and you got good references and you seem like a good guy and kind of grew up in the same town we played lacrosse together whatever. I'm going to invest $100 million with you and don't worry about it. Don't worry. I'll back you up. I'll be there for you. I'll help you along the way and we won't pull our money if you sort of stumble a little bit and that kind of thing. Whereas a woman. I've seen this they will have an incredible track record of performance. They'll actually been managing money for years and have a great track record and yet they won't get that shot. And so there are biases that, you know, are still here. You know, when you sit across the table I've heard it from my friends who are out there raising capital, who will sit across the table firm allocators of capital, and they'll go through the portfolio and this woman knows everything about every single position in that portfolio backwards forward you wouldn't believe it. Right. But yeah one of the questions gets and they're all men across the table that's fine but one of the questions that gets asked across the table is. So realize you know you have young kids. Yeah. So do you go to the office every day. I mean this is a rock star hedge fund manager who's literally got incredible track record and that's a question that an allocator is asking her you think that he would have asked that of a man. So there are still things going on and even within that hundred women finance. That's amazing organization. I love those guys they gave girls on that's one of our first grants in the beginning. When they when you have those kinds of conversations around to be amazed at what you hear still to this day what you hear so there's there's a lot of undercurrents here that still exist and and I would say that the playing field is not level. And and so you know one I would love to have more women be allocators of capital so part of girls to invest is to put these women in all these positions and so ideally there's many more of them sitting across the table. But not just not to say that you know women want to invest in women just because they're women. None of us would ever say we don't. There's no way I mean although I've I've heard some women actually say that they were nervous about going into their investment committees to present an investment recommendation to invest in a woman because they're afraid the trustees would say well you're only want to invest with her because she's a woman. Right I mean can you imagine that that kind of stuff is still happening and maybe that's just because there are fewer women out there I don't know but to invest in but. But again a man going in to say to his investment committee I want to invest with this man they would never say that they wouldn't think that that was the thing right but yet some women feel that way when they go in to present and that's just that's just a shame and we need to we need to help fix that too. We've heard a bit about some of the biases and structural impediments to institutional investors allocating more capital with diverse asset managers. One what strategies have been most effective for investors to get around these and what are the best practices that institutional investors should be considering to be able to actually move the needle here. So I, I, I hesitate to say that we are that night foundation particular has a list of best practices but I can talk a little bit about what night foundation did. And within this context of you know if you were to look at the study, or to provide a little more context if you look at the study we just published, there's a whole section a whole appendix in which we give each participant in the study on opportunity to discuss how they're addressing issues of diversity and how they what what what are their approaches. So as for blog we have we're going to have four blog posts that are going to be provided at the same time because we know that there are different the same way that there are different strategies with regards to building a portfolio. There are different areas of focus and different strategies with regards to diversity. So I could say from night foundations perspective, one of the things that helped us was a first identifying the level of diversity within our portfolio, the sort of inward facing we did we wanted to know where we were and where we started. And we looked at our internal processes that is as I was mentioning the idea about what and see what was just discussing and RuPaul RuPaul was was bringing home this issue of what are what are your criteria constraints associated with how you make and your decisions, and making sure that they are not preferences, but rather kind of true, true criteria that are necessary. And then, for us, it was a we as opposed to other other organizations where a mandate is is vitally important for us it was for us, the mandate was, we want this to be we want diversity to be an included an important part of the whole investment process. So that I think was facilitated to see this earlier earlier example was facilitated by the diversity within our Board of Trustees, and in our C suite. For us, the idea of diversity is not a foreign concept. It is the story of the folks who govern and manage the organization. And so, I think that that is something that helps to facilitate an environment of, of looking outside of the sort of strictures that have been put in place and examining those strictures appropriately. So that I, you know, I think that's what's worked with night foundation and for us it's led us to grow the assets under management by minority women owned firms from, you know, one firm with seven and a half million dollars under management in 2010 to almost 40% of our portfolio today. So nearly a billion dollars of our portfolio being managed by women and minority owned firms. And frankly, you know, what stands out to me it's really less about practices because ultimately look we know how to invest money what we look for it's awareness and transparency right awareness in that this is a bottom line issue. And, you know, I could tell you we acquired a manager, some years back and it was a team that have been 20 plus year track worker they've been together for all that entire time and when they came on we're like, you got to add diversity here because of who we are and the clients and there was some nodding. But when every RFP looked at their like Seema said looked at their orchard and said, we're not okay with this. Yeah, they quickly woke up and within reaching out to us and you got to help us here, because these questions are coming in on every RFP that we're getting. The other one is transparency and that in our Colorado firm for this. I think, you know, we're very diverse for right our parent company TIA has as a black female one of only two in the fortune 100. I'm Hispanic CEO of our asset management business and so on and we'll pat ourselves out we're doing great but then when we dug deeper and did a people index or equity index and said okay, sometimes, you know, it could be okay you're doing better with females but you're not doing as well with people of color and and vice versa and there's things that mask your numbers and you'll sell we're doing fine. But when you really start peeling young ego. Wow, when we look at ourselves I go well how are we doing in terms of, you know, African American female investment manager abysmal, like, you know, unacceptable yet for a while we're like, look at all the female managers we have and we're ahead of the pack. We feel pretty good. You peel it back. Now you shouldn't feel pretty good and sometimes, and this is where the urgency comes in. It is your clients showing up asking you this question. And your face drops and you really don't have a response to a number that is just so bad and you know, we'll hit on this. This is where it comes at if. If you don't do this while you're not going to get the capital and it is those asset allocators it is those investors and clients that come in pushing that issue that will wake up the industry because it's capitalism at the end of the day. Thanks. So with less than 10 minutes left I want to pivot the conversation a little bit to look at what asset managers should be doing within their own walls to improve these issues. We hear a lot, as you mentioned, Jose about companies taking a look and realizing that they're not very diverse in certain areas or that there's particular gaps and industry level looking at portfolio manager ranks as well as executive leadership overall. And one thing that we hear come up a lot is people talking about challenges in their recruiting pipeline or not being able to find enough diverse talent. When firms say this what are they doing wrong. I know Seema you touched on this a little bit in your and your response to the first question. What are firms doing wrong in the industry when they say they can't find diverse talent. They're not trying hard enough after not doing the work. I mean, there are, and there are now organizations out there more so than there were before who are actively doing this and doing it pretty well. So, you know, I found I met someone recently who had never heard of SEO before in our industry. It's like how can you not know that organization, you know, they've been around for over 40 years and they've been helping get more minorities into our business and much more broadly okay fine sales trading research investment banking but also asset management and so I just, I think I just think they're not working hard enough and and again, but from my vantage point I think overall our industry is doing a much better job recruiting more diverse talent in. But I think it's what our industry still has a tough time with figuring out is the then what you know once you've recruited all this great diverse talent in, then how do you, you know develop them advance them, retain them right that's a still a huge problem for us as an industry. And that's one of the things I'm focused on at Morgan Stanley investment management being on the senior leadership team there is, is that piece of it. And, and if I feel like we don't do that piece then we're going to be in the same place where we are today. Right, and I even when I think about girls on best I would be a total failure. If all I did was find these women we trained them up we send them off into the industry and they all left. Right, so very much part of what we're doing as an organization there is we're going to, you know, keep these women in and how we're going to do that we have an alumni council we're building on a great alumni community. We're putting in a lot of continuing education type content and programming into this, so that what you experienced one year out of school fires out 10 years out 15 years out is very different. And no one was really with me helping me navigate along the way and how to do that and so we're going to do that for these women and that's where we're trying to raise a lot more grant money around that as we as we do that. So that's what we're doing there but you know all of us at our firms need to be doing this inside it's much easier to manage teams that look the same that's why many of them didn't want to change. Right, it's much harder to manage diverse people to manage diverse teams, but, but we got to do it because of the benefits right I mean the bottom line benefits of it. And so, I mean some of the things that we're thinking about internally and starting to do internally is yeah one you got to start with transparency what are our numbers so that's Jose was saying you got to look inside and see what's going on. And then again here's our plan to get better, put out some targets, and then really work hard to get there and so developing all kinds of things internally that are going to help you get there and coming up with new programming. I created this thing out of nothing again, like to accross from fast but inside of our firm. We started calling it a junior investment talent development program well I thought that was not such an inspiring name and I like to name things so we call it now the rising investors program. And we decided to target those investment professionals on our teams globally and morning sailing investment management that are zero to six years of work experience. This is men women everybody. That's about 160 investment professionals for us. And I created programming around and this is an evergreen programs isn't just a training program and then send them off to their teams and you're done. This is a this is an all year round type kind of programming and content, and this is all designed to help this younger talent become more productive more creative become better investors, but become happier people, and want to stay in MSM for a long time. And then the other piece is to create more collaboration across our asset classes in our businesses globally these a lot of these folks don't know each other and not certainly not collaborating with each other and how do we get that going. So that they're also building friendships and relationships and community with their colleagues. Again, so they're happier and stay at MSM a long time at the core of what we're trying to do in this is, is if we do this right which I'm counting on we will that then these folks will stay at MSM for a long time. They'll become more senior start managing all of our businesses. It then will never seem unusual for a white man colleagues across table for his black female colleagues Indian woman colleague is black male colleague it'll just be how business gets done. And that's I think you structurally change cultures long term is as you know we start young they bring them in and you develop them and advance them and and everybody has to be a part of that conversation. I've seen a lot of places where they just have talent development programs for women minorities or diverse talents, and they, and it's over here. This is core to us as business and everybody, I think needs to be involved with that and I just think the industry reason industry needs to do a whole lot more of that, so that we have more ruffles who are you know going to be get to that spot managing you know billions of dollars. If I may, I think I applaud you for what you're talking about and creating this pipeline, but you know that sort of addresses what I'm going to call a partial supply side issue. I think from a demand side, ultimately allocators just like you did you know at your prior firm when you were the CIO, and thankfully you even have the mandate to do it. You just got to become a compulsion. It's got to become a mandate, you know for the senior leadership to have x% of assets managed by diverse owned or women managed firms etc, or women manage portfolios without that compulsion without that target setting. I think that what I what I fear is that while people talk about you know recruiting the pipeline, they always focus on recruiting at the lowest rungs of the ladder and and to be candid, you know it's very easy then to demonstrate that you're doing something I mean you I just mean in the industry at large, by recruiting you know women and minorities in junior positions you know administrative positions in clerical positions, as opposed to leadership positions, and unfortunately, you know hiring at the bottom does not move the needle. It's a start, but it also becomes a source of deflection of the lack of diversity at mid and senior practitioner levels, and I think that we cannot let allocators get off the hook. I work, I mean I I'm a board member at Harmony and Finance and I can tell you, we have 20,000 followers on LinkedIn. These are all practicing women mid career senior career, you know, been in the industry, lacking the opportunity. I mean if people have a job posting just give it to us. If you can't find the talent will find it for you. So there are resources out there if people are intentional. There is no supply site challenge that can't be figured out here and now we don't have to wait, because just as delayed is just as denied. So I would just say allocators wake up this is a call to action, set the targets, mandate them, you know have a very defined timeline, and we are all here to help you get there. Thank you, and we are about out of time for today. But I don't want to cut this panel short on this important topic. Jose, any final thoughts. Yeah, you know, I have to say we're at a time I would just say like the bottom line is you hear this story that there's not enough time to pull us then the pool is large enough. I mean, it's not or pretty this so at the very least when you look at the talent pool that's out there relative to the diversity that's in place. There's a big mismatch, and it is around thinking differently, looking at different areas to to fish. I think Seema mentioned affiliations like SEO, I'm a board member and a fellow alum at Twigo, for example, and I can again I'll look at our firm. We engage with Twigo SEO through giving money and speaking and engaging with students and then when you would follow up with this amazing example, there was a disconnect with our HR teams of why are we not capturing a return on our capital of investing these firms and dry drawing in that pool so there's an example like the pools in front of you're already engaging with the organization. And these organizations are still under penetrated at the firms who are actually giving money and supporting it and going to the gala is in the life. Thank you all for joining us for this panel. Please stay tuned for the next one which will explore how the hunt for yield will shape product development and investment strategies.