 Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering AWS Executive Summit, brought to you by Accenture. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of the Accenture Executive Summit here at the Venetian in Las Vegas. Part of AW re-invent, of course. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. We have two guests for this segment. We have Leandro Nunes. He is the Vice President Product Development at MasterCard. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. And Christine Leong. She is the Managing Director, Accenture Blockchain and Biometrics. Thank you so much. Thank you. So, sustainability is a hot topic in the industry, in all industry today, and especially here at AWS re-invent. I want to talk to you about circular supply chain, which was an idea that germinated in your brain a couple of years ago, but it's really just sort of launched a year ago. Tell us more about why you started CSC. Sure. We started this, actually, because a couple of things. We drink coffee every single day. And as we go into every coffee shop, and we think about, well, you know, you see packets saying, this is my single origin coffee. This is, I've paid extra for this, and it's sustainably grown. And yet you see news saying that, you know, the rainforest is being burnt down, and animals are being killed. And so about two years ago, I looked at this and I thought, wow, you know, how do I know? This is really sustainable, what I'm drinking. The extra five bucks that I'm paying at my coffee shop, is it really, is it really single origin? Is it really going to the right people? Is it really killing the orangutans and the rainforest? And then I see a statistic that says, well, for every coffee, a cup of coffee that we drink, a square inch of rainforest get burnt down. That, I mean, I drink at least five cups of coffee a day. So that's not good, right? So then I thought, in working actually with MasterCard, at the time I'm doing, and still do actually doing a lot of work with MasterCard in around identity and biometrics. And I thought, well, you know, how can we combine some of these capabilities we have with blockchain, identity to say, to put our money, where our mouths is, to change incentives as the base of the pyramid, where, you know, farmers, producers, small holders, if I can say to them that I really want care, that you don't burn a forest down, that you produce in a good way, and they're just trying to survive. They're not bad people, if they are just hand to mouth, that if we can say, right, we'll pay you more as consumers, and we know it's definitely going to that right person, then maybe we can help to change some of, you know, and not have the rainforest, and not have my guilty cup of coffee, right? So even if we don't drink quite as much coffee as you, Christine, we are, as a group, consumers are more socially conscious than they ever have been. What are some of the statistics here, that people just care more about this stuff, in general, and they're willing to pay a premium for it? So for example, the green trade is estimated, this came out for Unilever, at $2 trillion a year by next year, actually. I mean, that's staggering statistic. And as you see, I mean, more and more on social media, on literally, you know, every platform that you can see sustainability, it's a huge topic with, you know, sort of the recent sort of UN climate discussions. I mean, it's this week, next week in Madrid, it's a big topic that we should all as responsible consumers care about. So Leander, what do you see as the benefits of CSC to two small actors? Well, it's a great point because when you see it, just think about it, you usually say a lot about consumers and the big brands. And now we're protecting the big brands, but just think about the sourcing side of the supply chain, right? The small communities, the ones that are growing the coffee, the ones that are the farmers over there, or the fishermen. Now, these ones are, there's been for a while, they've just been kind of squeezed by the whole supply chain, it's squeezed by the whole business, right? It's like, let's remove a little bit of their margin, let's put it something else. Now, when we have the circular supply chain, because consumers and this new generation is so interested in knowing where the product comes from, you know, if they're doing the right thing, now it has a chance that you can pay them back. Some about, come up with an incentive model, that's why we send in a Mastercard, right? When you create a network like that, which the blockchain solution is a big network, so how we can gain traction, how we can gain adoption? One thing is, you need to establish incentives through all of the parties that you have in the network. So if you're just taking care of the brand and they're going to say, brand mandate to your suppliers that needs to do that, this is not going to work. What it works is, what is the incentive the farmer's going to have? What is the sourcing? So wait a minute, so don't you think the farmers want to do the right thing? Of course they do. But do they have incentive for that? If it's just a letter, if it's just someone mandating, they're not going to do it. But if you come with the idea of, hey, I pay you back, your coffee or whatever your product you're doing, we can have, you can have a premium. So we can, it's going to be sustainable to your family as well. Your business can be more profitable. So they'll say, okay, I want to be part of it. So it's creating incentives for people to, for the producers themselves to grow things more sustainably. It's all about that, it's not only them. And then you go to the suppliers, you go to the logistics, transportation companies. How do you create, you give them the visibility they always complain about, how can I have the visibility of my supply chain? Why can you create the visibility? You give the transparency, that you create the trust. And if you ask people in a supply chain business what the big problem in supply chain is trust. They don't trust each other, but they have to trade things and they don't trust each other. You do business with people you don't trust every single day, it's not a good thing. So if you bring this visibility, you facilitate this and they see this as an incentive to be also part of it. So Christine, what are the kinds of technologies that are powering the CSC? And how does it create that trust, that cultivate that trust? And Leandro is spot on in terms of trust. It's about trusting the people, but trusting the data and trusting the entities that have put in some of the data. There are components of blockchain, of course, that serve the traceability aspects of any of the product. Blockchain also helps with the decentralized identity capability that we've put in. We've made also biometrics for the individual, but this is optional depending on how, in terms of using it very responsibly. Payments, of course, digital payments and having the ability to actually direct payments through the MasterCard Rails. And then of course with the power of AWS and then hosting on the cloud and be able to have that anywhere. And the different aspects of including IoT. So we know that let's say for fisheries, this product is actually really came from this place, the sensors, we know that it's kept the right temperature. We therefore, insurance payoffs and things like that will be right and tracked all the way through and knowing that the product is really fresh and really kept intact throughout the journey. So a whole bunch of different technology. I totally agree. Projects with blockchain only would tend not to succeed. And the reason is because you need to come up with, you need to nurture the ecosystem. So how you bring the IoT to the table, how you bring payments, how you bring AI. So you get all these solutions together and then you create what this visibility, this trust we need. So companies are trying to do one side, which is just a blockchain, they're not going anywhere. So the reason that I like our alliance with Accenture and AWS is because we know that we needed to do this end to end and this can be broader than just talk about blockchain. Yes. And it's about the people because you have the, ultimately it's the consumer and the base of a pyramid producer both have identities. And if we are able to say, this is the identity of the person, I can then help to influence their livelihoods. So it's putting a real face on the supply chain for the end consumer. I mean, at a time where consumers are demanding more transparency in the supply chain, demanding to know more about the source of the goods that they, the products that they're buying, what has been the reception and what are you hearing back? I think we've had great receptions. We launched at Davos earlier this year. We've had a huge amount of interest and now slowly we're gaining sort of traction in terms of getting the pilots and putting them in place. And I think it's also something that people need to initially it's a little bit of education, understanding well, how does this actually all work? Is it just traceability? Is it just identity? Well, it's actually all of those things that understanding the use cases and embracing that there are, it's not just one way of doing something. And it's really a concept that embracing better business through better technology and innovation can actually be more sustainable and responsible businesses. So the traction has been great and we have had, we have a number of pilots in the pipeline. Yeah. In the past I used to believe that some things we should stop doing or stop eating because of the sustainable part of it. And I have learned that it's not the case. You can do the right thing. You can make sure that you're doing the right thing and you can eat with no guilt. That's why everybody wants, right? So this is the type of visibility we want to get from the consumer side but not from the company side of it. The brands are okay, I'm safe because brands, they have a very good visibility from the distributor on but they don't know what's going on behind that. Products, this is so globalized now. They're so fragmented. It comes from so many different places. Brands, there's no way that they can control it if they don't have this, this this veil. So that's why we're trying to bring together. So when this fully does launch and a consumer is then seeing the face of the coffee grower in Brazil or in Kenya and saying, okay, so then what happens then? How are they able to incentivize that farmer to do the right thing, as you say? There's a digital payment channel powered by MasterCard that you can then tip, so to speak, tip the farmer, donate money and actually say, well, there's multiple ways of doing things, right? So for example, if I'm the consumer scanning the product and there is, we have a whole Lego city built upstairs that can showcase this and say, right, this is how it works and scan the product and I can say, right, I want to be able to donate an extra dollar for this farmer because I really like the fact that you are sustainable and not burning the rainforest down and protecting the orangutans or elephants or the birds. So right, I'm going to give you an extra dollar. So this is how it's going to work on the app. And there are other consequences as well. So there's so many organic products nowadays but they're not really organic. So if you can prove they're organic, so the farmers would feel more motivated to really grow that as organic product because there is a premium. So it's not only the tip that you give to them but also the fact that you can create a premium price situation that will motivate others to do the same. So brands would grip the differentiator, farmers would feel like, okay, if I do this way I would be more profitable and consumers would benefit from a real organic or a real product with the sustainability behind it. Great, consumers can trust more. It's not just fake news. So how do, what are some of the, I mean this is such a cool concept. What are some of the biggest challenges in really launching and making it a reality? What is keeping you up at night? I think some of it is actually just education and getting it out there and understanding that this is a lot of stakeholders. So from consumer brands all the way down to the small holder providers. So it's a lot of people to link up and a lot of organizations to talk to. So some of it is just getting through that process and getting people to understand and also actually hopefully we'll get consumers to adopt and understand that this is something that they will want to do. Yeah, this whole integration like Christine said, it's important, right? So you understand all the key stakeholders don't need to be all of them at the beginning but at least the key stakeholders in the supply chain and how you can create this business incentive in an incentive model for them to be part of it. So it's a mapping exercise which is we are getting there and as we gain adoption and if you get at the consumer side doing this as well so it creates a network effect and that's why we're trying to do it in an domestic artistic, in our DNA, like building networks, right? As if everybody knows that. So we wanted to bring this to the ecosystem to contribute it. Okay, so how can I create a network effect that they can exponentially scale for the whole market share, for the whole marketplace? So I want to ask you a personal question. You've been in technology for a really long time and now- Not that old though. No, no, yo, so it's a babe. But in terms of the kinds of projects you've worked on and the kinds of ways you're thinking about technology and then this particular project at a time where climate change is a monumental challenge, the fate of our planet really hangs in the balance with the decisions that we're making. Policy makers and consumers are making today. I mean, what is it like to work on this kind of product? That's a great question. Yeah, I, well, for all of these years, so to go to work with this business mentality, you know, we're going to make more money for someone else. We're going to work for a big company and see some friends and family doing things for the society. I say, oh my gosh, you should do something like that. And now I feel like I can do both, right? We, we're talking, you know, it's a business. It's a great solution, but it makes it so well for the, you know, for the whole society. You know, it makes me feel really every day going to work and say, oh, this is what I want to do. You know, this is so cool. I mean, I'm helping, I'm benefiting myself because I go to the supermarket and I'm going to be the one who's going to tip the farmer. I'm going to be the one who's going to check where my shrimp comes from, right? So, so I'm doing this for my family. My kids are like, I hope they can live in a better planet that know exactly where the products come from. And the family that you have that's not even been born yet. So that's the other thing. You're helping future generations. That's amazing. We're doing things that we never know. Yes, you deserve, you deserve the Nobel Peace Prize. Andrew, thank you so much, Leandra and Christine, for coming on theCUBE. Really fun and fascinating conversation. Thank you. Thank you. I'm Rebecca Knight. Stay tuned for more of theCUBE's live coverage of the Accenture Executive Summit coming up after lunch.