 Yes, Wednesday. That means it's Energy Wednesday. I'm Jay Fidel. I love energy in Hawaii. That's Maria Tomes. She's my co-host. She loves energy in Hawaii. Yep. Okay. And then Shannon Tanganan. She's from a wine electric company. She also loves energy in Hawaii. I love energy, yes. So we have a continuation of our conversation that Maria and I had about two weeks ago, and then we continued that with Peter Rosling of Wine Electric last week, and we're going to call that the energy landscape, come up, continue. But before we get that, we're going to talk about the scam that's been going on, on and off, with regard to utility consumers, utility customers in Hawaii. Yeah. We have an ongoing issue with scam calls to utility customers, and it's not just the electric utility. It's the gas company, border water supply. So our latest wave of scam calls has really targeted, you know, it runs the gamut. We have churches that are being scammed or, you know, called. So called. It's a scam, a non-profit. Yeah. So non-profits, churches, commercial customers, residents, they don't, they discriminate. So yeah, they don't. So these scam callers are, you know, the latest round of scam calls is robocalls. So they'll say, you know, you'll get a recording saying that your bill is passed due, you need to call this number and straighten it out, or else you'll be shut off in 30 minutes. So we just want to reassure customers that we don't operate that way, and that they really need to just hang up on the scammers, and give us a call. You call the number that's on, print it on your bill or on our website. If you call the number that's on the caller ID, you'll just get back to the scammers. So give us a call and see, check on your account, make sure everything's okay. I think 98% of the time it's just a scam, you know, the other 2%. You know, maybe you are passed due, but we definitely won't be calling and saying you're shutting. You're not going to use a robocall. You're not going to threaten that way. No, we don't do that. So maybe it's 100%. I would be suspicious, greatly suspicious. Yeah. Well, whenever they just, if ever they say we're shutting you off within a certain timeframe, that's the one key, you know, warning that it's a scam. You wouldn't do that. No. Yeah, so I mean, I find that very interesting because it's dangerous business. If you're not Akamai about it, and you follow the program they set for you, and you call that other number out of, you know, sort of a misplaced fear, okay, they're going to say, they could say, I don't know what they actually do. You can tell me, you know, okay, you got to pay your $39 bill or whatever it is, and let's have your credit card. Yeah. Okay, now they got your payment, but they also got your credit card. Exactly. The credit card, it's going to wind its way around the world for scam charges, way more than $39. Definitely. This is very dangerous business. So we just want to tell customers, we don't ever ask for payment over the phone. We have on our website all the different payment options that you have. One of them is not to give us information over the phone. Your credit card information, we don't accept that. So, you know, it's really about educating yourself, going on our website, looking at the payment options, and just make sure, you know, if they're asking you to feed cash into a Bitcoin machine. Oh, that's really suspicious. At some retailer. Just know that that's just really not something we would do if they ask you to go to a retailer and get debit cards, prepaid debit cards. You know, again, that's not something we would ask you to do. It's taking advantage of people who are not Akamaki. Well, yeah, it's taking advantage of people who, you know, are in the moment are, you know, very vulnerable. You have small business owners who are, you know, busy trying to tend to other matters. And when you have a call saying that you're going to be shut off, you know, you get afraid, you're fearful. Especially if you're, you know, you have trouble paying your bills. That makes it even more risky. Because you think, oh, my God, I'm having somebody else chase me on a bill. I've got to respond to this because terrible things will happen. You know, if you're in the middle of a lunch rush, if you're a restaurant, you know, you don't want to have your electricity shut off. You know, I said before, though, it's praying on people who are not Akamaki. Truth is that anybody can be rushed. Anybody can make a mistake. Anybody can pick up the phone when they shouldn't. Anybody can follow the track of a scam when they shouldn't. People make mistakes. And so if they call 10,000 people, you might find a few who actually submit to this. Yeah. So a couple of thoughts on that. One is, seems to me that if you get a call, my smart phone tells me when it's a robo call. Or you can tell it's a robo call. Yeah. You can definitely tell it's a robo call. You know, it's got that certain metallic quality to it. I just hang up. Yes. I hang up. There's nothing anybody can do to stop me from hanging up. And if a guy, if there's a really legitimate thing, which is, you know, like one in a million possibilities, then he can call me back. Oh, shoot. So the best, and I'm speaking now, you can tell me how more electric feels about it. The best medicine for this is just don't take the call or hang up immediately. And the funny thing, you know, Shannon, is that if you do that, they don't call again. No, they don't. They go away. Yeah. They do go away. Until the next person comes around. So you just have to be vigilant. You just have to be aware of what you're dealing with. And when you have those robo calls, you know, telling you to call this number, hang up and call this number. Just hang up and don't do the next step. Yeah. Just hang up. Just hang up. That's the deal. Yeah. Thank you, Shannon. Shannon, take that one electric. We love when you come down and say hi to us. Thank you so much. I appreciate being here. We'll take a short break and we'll see you again soon. Okay. Thank you. Hi, I'm Rusty Komori, host of Beyond the Lines on Think Tech, Hawaii. My show is based on my book, also titled Beyond the Lines, and it's about creating a superior culture of excellence, leadership, and finding greatness. I interview guests who are successful in business, sports, and life, which is sure to inspire you in finding your greatness. Join me every Monday as we go Beyond the Lines at 11 a.m. Aloha. Aloha. I'm Yukari Kunisue, the host of Konnichiwa, Hawaii, Japanese talk show on Think Tech, Hawaii. Konnichiwa, Hawaii is all Japanese broadcast show, and it's streamed live on Think Tech at 2 p.m. every other Monday. Thank you so much for watching our show. We look forward to seeing you then. I'm Yukari Kunisue. Mahalo. Hi, Maria. Hey, Jay. Alone at last. Energy is our thing, yeah. So we're going to continue our conversation here on Hawaii, the state of clean energy, about the energy landscape, the players that are on the landscape, how they interact, maybe how they should interact. It's a continuing discussion, and as we learned already, we did two of these already. It is very important to do this. It's really clarifying to take a look at it and see what the dynamic's on. And as far as we got, I don't think we actually address the utility itself. Well, see, we started, you know, this is a list that was developed by discussion in the Hawaii Energy Policy. It's just a draft. You know, the idea was to take a look at who's doing what, and then look at the policies, and then look at the interaction between the policies and whatnot. It's an important discussion. But since the who does what piece is so interesting, you know, that's kind of where we started. Also, from the PEC perspective, we have a tendency in the orders to always start at the beginning. I don't know if you've read through the orders that are put out by the public utilities division, but you always have the background section, and you know, let's start. So, we started with the legislature setting overall energy policy goals, directions, and so forth, also having funding for anything the administration may choose to do. Then went to the governor, because that is the head of the administration, and you know, that's a very important part of it. And then to the agencies within the state government that are carrying out the directives of the legislature, which represents the will of the people. And you had all sorts of interesting reactions to all parts there. That will probably continue. So, this is the background. And then we got through the energy office over at D-Bed, which is having an interesting time this legislative session. I wish them well, because it really is an important part of this whole puzzle. Can we digress for a moment, and can you tell me what is the interesting time they're having? Well, the legislature has taken a look at their funding, pulled them out of the state budget, along with a bunch of other agencies as well, and said, okay, you're going to have to have your budget looked at separately by your committee errors and whatnot. And so, I guess that has happened, and now those are in conference committee. So, you know, the final form of the bill that tells the energy office how to do what it needs to do and telling it what it needs to do, as well as how much funding it might have to do, is all up in the air. Gee whiz, it sounds like micro-management. And it sounds like non-management, it sounds like. And, you know, I mean, you would assume, I'll tell you where I start thinking about it. I start thinking about the potholes. So, the potholes. You would assume that somebody in government, state or federal, depending on, I'm sorry, state or county, you know, you would assume that somebody at some level is in charge of filling the potholes. No, it's like, you know, it's like, I was used to sit on the neighborhood board, and I would say to the representatives of the city every single meeting, you know, who's in charge of filling the potholes, and when is the poth, do you have a list? Have a list of what streets are going to be paved? Let me have the list. Please, I'm a neighborhood board. Let me send me the list. Never, years went by, never. What did they say? They would get it to you, but they never did. And I realized after a while, there was no list, and it was like, who made the loudest squawk sound, okay, and there was really nobody in charge, and nobody wanted to be in charge, and that's why there were potholes everywhere. I don't really think that's changed. So, take energy now. The question is, you know, who's actually in charge? That's the inquiry of our discussion, isn't it? And, you know, it could be that there's actually nobody in charge. It just happens, and when somebody squawks about it, when it hits the front page in some way, then everybody runs around and does something. And I really think that we have got to, the energy office is what we've been talking about. We've got to enable them. We've got to fund them. We've got to, you know, empower them. You got to say here, you know, do it. Do the plan. Build the potholes in energy. Make it happen. This is your responsibility. We're not going to micromanage you. We want you to manage yourself and do a good job. That's what we're paying you for. We don't have that. Okay, so that is exactly the type of discussion, I think, that was behind this whole effort. We even put the list together, because there are different parts to this, and there are different agencies that are in charge of different parts, but if each agency is only aware of their own piece, and there's no understanding of the whole landscape, or let's say somebody new comes into the area, and they're wondering, well, who fills the potholes? Or who has the data? Who has, you know, who has the plan? Who's in charge of what piece? If there was some explanation of at least who's in charge of what piece, it may not be one entity in charge of everything, but at least you'd be able to find the entity in charge of the piece that you're busy working on. Right, but you're never going to have anybody stand up and say, follow me, boys, we're going to do this, let's have some excitement, we're going to actually move ahead on this, this, this, and this, unless you empower that person and fund that person, and give that person staff and credibility and all that person needs. You don't have to create another energy authority about it. You have to take the existing offices that exist by law now, and actually respect them. And that'll help. Here, here, okay. That's my comment on the energy office and do that. I love the digressions. So the pothole thing, if we could go back to that one, so we got this car. We have a car that's not, you know, autonomous in any way, but it does have this lane change, you know, this lane tracking mechanism you can turn it on. And it also has automatic braking, you know, and so I was thinking what it really needs is a pothole detector. And then I thought, wait, if you've got the lane departure thing on and the pothole detector on and the automatic braking on, it would just come to a dead stop and say, this road is not good enough to drive on and you wouldn't get anywhere. Sorry. You're giving me an idea. You know, Google, they run around for Google Maps, they run around with a little photographic unit on top of the car. Take pictures of the road? Yeah, we got the technology, we have sensors, we can look at the road. Everywhere they drive within a, you know, a radius of X feet, they could identify the potholes, even potholes that are not so obvious. And they could keep a record of that. He'd send it back. They could send it back by wireless. And you would have the actual location with the geocoding. And it would appear on a map. And then on the map, they would appear a course of action, a track, right, a route for the pothole people to follow. And it could even assign, I could write this code. Assign the date when it's supposed to go and tell them exactly where the potholes are and protect them with necessary police on a heavily traffic road. And they could do the whole thing on an automated basis. Or something that solidifies quickly enough so that, you know, if you just went over it slowly enough, by the time you were off, it would be solid. Kind of like printers. You know, by the time it comes out, it's more alive. Or you need an automated pothole or pothole. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. This is why we never get through this list. You have to change the name of the show soon. Okay, so we got through D-Vet on those number four. Office of Planning. You know, Office of Planning. They have the maps and whatnot. We had talked a little bit about that. And then the public. There could be a redundancy there. The Office of Planning sit right next to the Office of Energy. And are they talking to each other? Yeah, all of these are interrelated. Are they talking to each other? Well, that's a question, right? That's a question. So I've seen a lot of discussion because the GIS maps have a lot of the energy resource information. They have a lot of the permitting information, the land use information that the developers of the projects would need. So it seemed like a very useful, jointly developed project. You know, if you ask me cold, if you're totally cold on this, you said who is supposed to do the planning on energy projects? I would say the Office of Energy Energy Office. And I wouldn't think of the Planning Office because the Energy Office knows so much more about it. However, I would say that once the Energy Office makes a plan, they should probably run it by the Planning Office to make sure it doesn't conflict with another plan because they write down the hallway, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, well, yeah. Same building. Yeah, so that brings us to the Public Utilities Commission. We talked about the regulated entities. And you know, the whole theory is if you have a monopoly service, it's an essential service. And we were talking, you know, just earlier, why are people so nervous when they get a call from a scammer saying, we're going to shut off your power? Because it's important to maintain your power, to your site, to your company. So it's an important essential service. And if it's a monopoly type of provider, then these essential services, whether it's electricity or gas or water, used to be telephones as well. You know, you want to make sure that it's a reasonable charge for the customers who are captive. Sure. But let's dwell on the utility for a moment. And we really have to talk about more than one utility here because you got KIUC and Kauai, which is a different model because people vote and they have a board of directors that are elected by the electorate and by the rate holders, rate payers, in Kauai. That's very different, okay? And then you've got one electric that covers the other island. And so where do they fit? I'm really asking you this, but I'll volunteer my... Okay. Where do they fit in terms of leadership, of finding new ideas, implementing new ideas, making us energy independent and reaching goals that have been articulated. How important are they in this huge schematic that we're talking about? You said you wanted to answer, so I'm going to give you the opportunity to answer your question. Okay, thank you for that. I think they're really important. Now, of course, they have their constraints and they're surrounded with regulatory bodies, not only the PUC, but also the consumer advocate and all that. And a lot of organizations like to think that they are also regulators, even though some of them are just activist organizations, trying to affect policy within the utilities. But in fact, as they are the 800-pound gorilla, both of them in their own way, they have the resources, have the expertise, they have the lawyers, they have the engineers, they have the history, they have the maps, and they have access to the new technologies that are happening around the world. They know more, really, than, may I say, any other hype organizations in this field. We have to give them credit for that, and we have to allow them a wide berth, in my view, how to go forward and how to design and implement plans. And I think sometimes we get into scrapes with them that are not productive. I mean, with next era, that was not productive. And what was the other one? Well, all the complaints by the solar installers and all the activists trying to make hostilities. But the fact is that the end of the day, although the utilities are business organizations, and in the case of Wine Electric, it's not a co-op, it's an actual profit company. Investor-owned utility, yep. The fact is that they are well suited to be in leadership positions. Now, maybe it's subject to discussion, maybe it's subject to regulation, but they are an appropriate place for new ideas to happen, or at least to be thought of. New place for initiatives to be conceived. A new place for understanding and reporting exactly what the effect of those initiatives are. I give them credit, I'm not sure we collectively give them enough credit for being in leadership. After all, I've been doing this for a hundred and some hundred and some odd years. So I see them as the most important, may I say, the most important, both KOEC and Wine Electric, the most important name on the list. Okay, yeah. And they are the service providers. So we started with the concept and all the laws and regulations and whatnot. But within all of those regulations, including being an investor-owned utility, they do have a responsibility to their shareholders, as well as to the public and to satisfy the regulatory requirements. But they are the ones who are building, maintaining and operating the electric grid. Yeah, you don't see the lights are on. This is a notable fact. It is. It is. And we appreciate. And everybody who uses electricity, I'm sure, appreciates. Do you think that we're giving them enough leeway? Or are we constraining them in ways maybe we don't have to? I'm not talking about the regulations of the PUC. Because that's another study. I'm talking about, say, the public and the legislature. I mean, there have been bills in the legislature that were thoroughly destructive and useless. There are always bills in every topic that seek to push the envelope of both policy and economics. Well, sometimes she's excited. Yeah, but that's the nature of the dynamic space in which we operate. We could say that's the nature of democracy. That's what I meant. But the problem is democracy works and sometimes it doesn't work. And I think we always have to be analyzing that. It only works to the extent that people who care and are knowledgeable take the time to learn and discuss in rational and reasonable ways. What can be done and how visionary or how nervous we should be about the opportunities or the challenge. I agree with everything you said. You can't ignore either one. This is very important. I hope people are writing this down. A vigorous debate is essential. This is going to be on the final exam, all of it. So yes, we need to acknowledge the importance and the value of all the parts. And don't just assume that the services that we have today will continue without understanding and supporting the realities of the situation but also the dynamics and the changes that are facing everybody. Not only the large businesses but also the small businesses. The government agencies as well as the public. There are decisions required at every point which is where all these agencies are looking at different aspects because no one human being can understand every detail of every aspect of this energy. No, but you know we're talking about leadership here. Yeah. And the leader does not have to understand every aspect of a technical landscape like this. But the leader has to be able to motivate people continually going the right direction and has to be able to stop them when they're maybe thinking of the wrong direction. And we haven't had that honestly. I'm looking back to multiple governors. I don't think we've had a governor who really understood about energy and I mean on a larger scale. You can come in and say, oh I like this or I don't like that. That's ad hoc. You know, you want some real comprehensive plan, comprehensive understanding, really Akamai kind of view of things where you think about it, you have close advisors who advise you really take their advice. That's what we need because right now I think this whole conversation is operating on the assumption that when you when you put 57 or 157 organizations on the landscape on the chart, you know, it's very hard to reach consensus. It's very hard to make a plan or carry out a plan. So that's what we need. We need clear leadership by people authorized to provide that leadership. Yes, that's very helpful at all levels. Including your leadership in the communication space, getting the word out, getting people in to talk about it. We haven't really progressed on this list yet. Go ahead. We're not done. We got past the background section. We won't be done in this show either. So we talked a little about the utilities commission and the consumer advocate. Very important part of the whole review piece. You know, excellent resource. We really need the consumer advocate. And why? Because they are tasked to look at the concerns of the consumer because you've got the public utilities commission viewing the applications that come in and the information that comes in. And you have sometimes developers coming in and making their pitch and whatnot. If you didn't have a specific role for another agency to come in and say, hey, from the consumer's perspective we're concerned X, Y, or Z, that would be a missing part. Who would make that argument? You know, if the PUC starts making the argument, then they're not weighing the evidence. The other hand, clapping. Right, exactly. So you need all those pieces. And fortunately, the CA is very knowledgeable. Both the staff and their consultants have a long history of understanding of the issues. Not just electricity, but also the water and the waste. And so... I'm always interested though about how the consumer advocate can get into issues that are off the reservation, so to speak. If you've read their statute, there's a lot in there about not just the immediate concerns of the specific consumer being affected by this decision this year, but also a longer term. What's the public interest? So they also have a longer term view. So that's kind of where this winds up. There are arguments about, well, this is going to cost X today, but it'll give Y benefits tomorrow. And it depends on what your view of the future is. What are the opportunities? What are the risks? How do you weigh them? It's not just a naysayer, then. Is it, Maria? No. Because if it's just a naysayer, then that puts it in a certain box. Not a naysayer. No. Does a consumer advocate make affirmative suggestions about things nobody else suggests? Yeah. Yeah, they do. And it's an interesting dynamic between having the information that's presented be complete. And I'm not just talking about electric utility necessary. Just in general. So very often, you can get the information that you need for a complete picture when somebody starts asking the question. Like, you love to ask questions to get the rest of the story. And it's the same thing. In the process of asking the question and getting the answers, everybody has a better view of what the whole picture is and what the impacts might be. As a matter of human nature, though, you know, I remember the effort to develop the portfolio where they call it the... They don't use it so many times. Oh, the PSIP? The Power Supply Improvement? Powers... No, before that. That was Integrated Resource Planning? Yes, that's it. IRP. That went on for like four or five years. Oh, longer than that. Longer than... Sorry, you make my point. It was way long. The first thing they had to figure out what they were going to talk about and then they had to figure out who was going to talk and how. And then they actually had, you know, the utility develop. This was a plan and then it was discussed and debated and so forth. So, yes. I'd like to comment on that because it's very totally relevant to our discussion. So there were, as I recall, this number might be off a few, but it was something like 82 people involved in the committee and organizations were involved in the committee to find out about the Integrated Resource Plan. And it never actually reached a plan. Actually, there were about four of them. There was IRP1, IRP2, IRP3. Thank you. Thank you for that. They were starting an IRP tour. And really, I think it was a, in general, a bad idea, badly executed because nothing happened. And I think we lost precious time over that sort of thing. And my reaction is, you know, it's like having a charity with a board of directors of 82 people. Maybe they're good for writing checks, but they're not good for making policy. It's too many people. And when you have 82 people, on the IRP, all coming in with their own various points of view and no clear way to identify whose point of view is more important than who else and have everybody arguing and trying to get the floor, so to speak, you don't reach agreement. You don't, you know, it's the old criticism about Hawaii, a place where everybody's trying to reach consensus, but never, they never do. They reach consensus by making no action. That's the consensus point of action. And the IRP was a perfect example of that. I think it should have been reorganized early on. And I think there should have been some strong leadership there to say, okay, not everybody, not redundant groups, not the same people arguing the same points. Let's move ahead. You know, next point, that didn't happen. And so I think we wasted a lot of time and probably a lot of money given the fact that so many people were involved. What do you think? Well, I think the current power supply improvement plan... I'm talking about the old one. You know, I wasn't directly involved in that back then. So my perspective was different. You know, I saw a lot of the folks who were interested felt they could come into the room and listen to what was being said. And it wasn't all of them speaking at once. And I think the reason for the large numbers was you had different groups on each island. So each island had its own group of people talking about those particular issues. And so you've got heat, one electric, my electric, my electric, my white. So the numbers weren't as that, you know, quite as huge per island. And I don't think it was quite as noisy, but the general point about many discussions happening and it taking a long time is definitely valid. And I remember when they got to the end... There was no outcome. Well, the outcome was very similar, but I think that laid the groundwork for the changes that happened later. You had the ability to find good in everything, Maria. Well, we were moving in the right direction after that effort, because people did say, well, this really isn't getting us to where we need to go as quickly as we need to go there. And so that's when the legislature said, you know, we're going to have a renewable portfolio standard. And I might mention that the energy office was very involved in doing a lot of the research and the groundwork in pulling together the studies to show that that was even feasible at that time. So the IR, you know, you have to get to a certain level of discussion and concern before you're willing to take it to another venue. Oh, yeah. It sounds like entrepreneurship. You have to have some failures before you learn enough to make a successful company. What's another word for failure? Uh, consensus. Experience. Well, you know, we should talk about the renewable portfolio standards, too. And I think that's probably in the next show. Oh, yeah. We're out of time already. Yeah, I think we're almost done. But this is really very productive as far as I can. I really enjoy talking about it. So where is it going to go from here? I mean, we'll do that next time, but there's so much more. Where do you think we are on the continuum of examining the subject? Well, I think we got to the top of page two. Out of four. But the digressions are fun. Yeah, okay. All right. Well, okay. We'll do this more. We'll explore it. I think it's very valuable. I like the idea of looking back at our history over the past what, 20 years, almost 20 years, trying to figure out how this animal, who's in this animal, how the animal moves, how the animal makes decisions. What kind of outcomes we can achieve and hope to achieve going forward. It's complicated. Yeah. It's competitive. And it's risky. And it's important. Oh, it's critical. Thank you, Maria. Thanks, Jay. Maria Tomek. So enjoy our discussion. Thanks for having me on the show.