 Well, hello everybody. You are in for a treat today. I know I've said that before but I'm here with Dr. Gordon from Gordon Medical Associates and it is just an honor and a treat to have him today. We're going to talk about the cell danger response and if you don't know what that means or have never heard of it, I promise you it's very groundbreaking and we're going to do our best to talk. Not only you know me, we always talk on a pretty high level but we'll actually try to make it very practical and understandable. I'll be watching out of the corner of my chat box so if you do have questions, I'll do my best too. If we can't get to them in real time, I will come back and watch those. A few housekeeping things. You can find all my blogs and information, all free resources on my website which is just my name, jillcarnahan.com and any products. I try not to mention a ton of products because these are really non-commercial but if we do, they're at drjillhealth.com. We're just here to bring you great information. I also have a YouTube channel so this will go live to the YouTube channel in a few days and you can just search my name on YouTube and you'll see 50 plus interviews with great medical experts like Dr. Gordon. They're all free. You can watch them at your leisure. If you're catching us later, mid-interview, you can come back and watch this on Facebook as well. I want to introduce Dr. Gordon first and then we will dive right in and I will ask him to tell us a little about the story of the Seldange response and his story. Dr. Eric Gordon is the president of Gordon Medical Research Center and the founder and owner of Gordon Medical Associates. He's in the San Francisco Bay area specializing in complex chronic illness. In addition to clinical practice over 40 years, he's engaged in clinical research. I love that we have clinicians like him that are brilliant in their treatment of patients but also doing the research because as we talked about just before getting on here, things are constantly in flux and one of the things we have to be comfortable with is the uncertainty of change and not always having the answers even though we like to have the best data at our disposal and part of that comes from great research like with clinicians like himself. I just shout out to him for doing that. In 2007 to 2009, he created a series of medical symposium bringing together leading international medical researchers and cutting-edge clinicians to focus on chronic fatigue, Lyme disease, autoimmune, autism, a lot of these things we see in clinical practice. Combining the forces with Dr. Navu and his researchers into metabolomics, mitochondrial function and chronic inflammatory disease is now bringing this dream to life. In 2016, he co-authored a paper with Dr. Navu on the groundbreaking study Metabolic Features of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and we're going to dive into that and talk about that. First of all, welcome Dr. Gordon. It is such a pleasure to have you here. Thank you, Joe. It's a pleasure to be here, really is, and especially the work that you do because you mentioned those Rotna Ling meetings we had and if I had you with me then they wouldn't have been kept a secret. We all meet each other, right? I love talking and then but you're back there doing the work. I have such admiration for that because that my research is not my gift but I'm so grateful to people like you that are doing the work to bring the information out. What I want to start with is what I start with every person I talk to is your story. How did you get into medicine? Tell us a little about how you got into this and then we'll talk about how you got into the cell danger response work. Okay, well I want to talk too much about me but you know I just started out. I was always interested in science and psychology you know and you know the great questions and medicine just seemed like a natural place to go and you know I had when I entered medical school I was a little older than most already and I had taken more than a year off. This was the 60s so we didn't go to school often but when I entered I already planned to do what we now call functional integrative medicine back then we called alternative medicine but after when I got into medical school I was just so overwhelmed by the magic of medicine of acute care medicine it's so that I couldn't I began to doubt that what I was reading about how you could treat people with natural things how could that possibly work you know it seemed like oh my god you know this the magic I was doing was too big for a supplement to possibly help so I kind of did regular medicine for about 12 years but I was always still dabbling I studied I went to in those days there were small meetings you know we get together with Leo Galland and the Bach brothers and you know Jeff Bland came to visit you know but I was like watching from the outside and then in 92 I made the leap and I studied a year of osteopathy and I just went into this and you know the thing that drove me was I believed my patients and when you see and the thing in in regular medicine what I call regular medicine is what afflicts our patients is that doctors if they don't have a diagnosis they don't believe you often not always I mean to be fair but if you frustrate them too long with too many complaints they tend to you know tell you that you're depressed or hypochondriac or the old term functional never remember when functional didn't mean the functional that we know and functional meant we don't know why you have the symptoms you do but we're just going to call it functional because that's all that we know to do right because you know it's obviously a dysfunction of your but you're not broken and broken is what we understand conventional medicine is brilliant and broken yes you know as I always tell people a bullet wound a car accident a heart attack yeah we got you covered um a sprained ankle we don't do so well right you know anything that doesn't break completely we don't understand healing that's a great way to put it because it really does it's a whole different paradigm and there is a place for conventional excellent western medicine we both use that as a foundation and then it's like I think of our toolboxes they're just a lot bigger we have more options and most conventional medicines taught to get a code in a diagnosis and then that it ends you've done your job whereas you and I we say why why did this happen let's go deeper and dig yeah and and it's it's the story I mean this is what you know one of Dr. Navi not actually it's Dr. Navio I know he's um that's a little French pronunciation thank you for I knew I was a dancer Navio thank you yeah who knows potato potato but he might um the you know he's he's um you know he's been trying to um show us that that we we need to use the the the massive abilities we have to study disease um using science because he is he's a an MD but he's foremost really a researcher I mean he was a clinician for many years he was a specialist in inborn errors of metabolism of diseases that affect usually kids that um often will you know lead to death before the age 10 these are like one two or three gene anomalies you know mutations that that cause you know severe disease um and um but as he channeled as he chased those things he got more and more into the complexity of things found that genetics was an unsatisfactory satisfactory answer because even at their level of one gene being um in error well the two patients with that same genetic defect had very different outcomes differently okay I mean it's one child would pass away at two and the other one could live to eight so it was it wasn't just that gene it was the the whole system yeah and so as he studied more and more systems approach I sort of went right off into dr navio okay I would like to know and before we dive into the research on cell danger how did you meet how did you connect with the cell to tell me about this you know in 2000 and I can remember the dates because it was there were that momentous and for moving me in life in 2013 um Dr Chandra excellent psychiatrist and pediatrician and just all around great practitioner in the south sent me an article his article oxidative shielding um or oxidative stress and you know I sent it out in my clinic we at that time Neil Nathan was working with me Wayne Anderson um and I sent it out to everybody and Neil came back to me and said we've got to meet this man you know because this was I thought this was the best article on biochemistry that explained things because what was happening at this time is in the 90s I was treating people like many functional doctors do today with you know you know balance the hormones you clean up the gut you know you remove the obvious infections and you know people got better it was really cool um but when I moved to California in 98 I inherited a lot of patients of a groundbreaking doctor Dr Jeff Anderson who's retired now um and he had a lot of people who'd been sick for 20 30 years and they would come in many of them over the years with shopping bags of supplements but they didn't help and I started and again Wayne joined me in 2001 and we started seeing a lot of Lyme patients um and you know the supplements weren't I mean I said in the 90s the supplements were great and now they weren't working so and I never quite understood you know because the model is you know chronic inflammation reactive oxygen species right you know antioxidants should help but they didn't you know and Dr Navio's paper just kind of like opened my eyes and went god this is why is that the system is stuck in loops okay at this oxidative stress that we talked about was really the body's first response to infection was to self-protection we created that oxidative stress in order to kill the bugs and signal to our other cells that there's danger here you know it wasn't that it was um a bad thing the bad thing was we couldn't turn it off yes and that is where we get into what makes um the our functional medicine conceptions brought to life because we're always talking about how we can rebalance the body okay but it's we still often go at it and and I myself do it all the time with that um basic first first book of medicine concept of find out the underlying pathology you know what is what what is wrong with the body with the with the system okay and that's a very useful fine when you say because first and second book of medicine and Dr Navio's work let's tell me more yes okay I'm sorry I've been thinking about this now for seven years so so um what do you call the first book of medicine it's basically what we were trained with in medical school okay you know you have a problem you make a diagnosis you find you have a disease you find out the proximate cause of that disease okay you know you have pneumonia you want to find out what bug cause that pneumonia got it straight I mean straightforward but basically 70% of the NIH budget to this day is stuck on finding out the cause of disease and that works really well when the disease is an acute disease okay you you are you are relatively okay something happens you're sick the next day normally you go through a cycle and you're better within six weeks I mean generally that that's why we get away with lousy medicine because people you do get better within six weeks they get it better with they're without us sometimes you know that that that is the dirty secret of medicine is that 90% of people are better without um but in chronic illness that doesn't happen okay in chronic illness and that's where the second book of medicine because the first book of medicine basically has an intervention okay which is let's say an antibiotic or um sometimes just something to you stop the bleeding right I mean that's a very good example you know you stop the bleeding and then we depend on what many people I think but I like I think of Bob calling it the black box of healing yes yeah Bob Rountree our king of functionalism yeah right right right I mean many people are probably going that term but it's like you know that's what we depend on you know and we haven't spent enough time looking at what is allowing the healing mechanism we've spent too much time looking at what is broken yeah so all we have to do is replace one part right okay and so the second book of medicine is really what um the naturopaths and those of us who are in now functional integrative medicine try to practice is looking at the system yes okay um but you know that's easier said than done because we don't really understand the system very well it's incredibly level if I would I just add what I find is the level of come when we go to medicine if we just have a diagnosis and treatment it's very very simple and straightforward there's still thousands and hundreds of thousands of different diagnoses but it's a very straightforward line linear A to B process right we're going into much more the points are so diverse I always think of like quantum versus Newtonian physics right we're going into this where the variables are so many and the systems are so complex that we're never dealing with one thing we're dealing with a hundred of thousands of things at one time which is why I mean you bring up a really important point that I that I know patients one of the things that patients get very upset at and I respect it is the unfortunate cost of what we do yes and you know my heart goes out to them because it it's real it's terrible but you know in conventional medicine now is based on the what seven to ten minute visit yeah you know and if you come in there and try to talk about more than one thing that's bothering you you're out and we're dealing with we're dealing with I mean forget about even thinking in the systems approach right our patients have systems have um systemic dysfunctions I mean and again in in regular in the old days in the emergency room we used to call it you know the the the positive review of systems yeah you know basically you ask people about their eyes ears now we call it multi symptom multi system illness which is Lyman mold and everything related to the cell danger response it means every system in your body has symptoms and it doesn't make sense yeah yeah no I'm sorry but the point you were making before is that this happens because there are so many things at play so we have all of our systems and then we have all the minor or major dysfunctions that depend on you know your genetics and your environmental exposures and that makes this disease a disease of the individual which you can't wrap up in 15 minutes right because you you you you haven't yeah you barely scratch the surface and there's no protocol or one size fits all here right I have so resisted protocolized medicine because every single patient it needs an individual plan and treatment and I know you agree with that oh you know we have been over I mean I've had a clinic here in California for 22 years now and I have been approached multiple times to try to monetize it you know and we and and people come in and they they run away because they see that we don't make money because when you're doing things individually even the the medical assistants have such a hard job because they don't know that that you're going to do ABC absolutely Eric I couldn't agree more and a lot of colleagues no disrespect for them they have a ABC plan to detox in 20 days that doesn't work for our population it works for healthy people yes exactly that was my point from the beginning the functional medicine approach as most people are taught is amazing thing for folks who are imbalanced a little bit they haven't slept too much they just had a divorce they're working two jobs you know like they're stressed yeah we can turn around with the protocol probably yeah usually because you don't you know I was a mechanic for a very short time and what I liked about working on people after that was in people we just had to get close yeah okay people heal you know cars don't I love that and again it's that black box of healing because that's the magic of life there are so many different ways um I always said I want to put a sign up above my clinic everything works sometimes yeah because I swear I mean I've almost never met a therapy that's out there on the internet that doesn't work for some people yeah totally it's just talk about the response and like what is this thing people I mean you and I know what it is but how would I would describe that in late terms and okay it's so relevant uh okay self-danger response but it's basically um you know when we start looking at healing you know and the body's response I said we had that first step where we see a lot of reactive oxygen species you know and so what Dr Navio did was just give us a conceptual framework okay you're saying that normally there's you know health there's you know sleep and wake cycles and there's the minor stresses of life you know you exercise exercise is a great example yeah when you really exercise hard you really are um stressing you you're you're you're killing some cells I mean in fact if you take a lot of vitamin c and a lot of antioxidants before you exercise you won't get as much of a training response because you're not stressing your cells enough you know you want to stress them and that's going through this healing cycle where some cells die okay that's cdr and that would be like the cdr one cdr two is when the cells start to rebuild and replace those that um have been have been lost cdr three is when those replant replacement cells are finished um restoring full communication because when the cell is being like either a new cell or an old cell that's gone through some real big stresses um it shuts down the cell membrane okay very good example in cdr one the cell membrane um kind of thickens it becomes less permeable okay to outside influences and as you go to the cdr two it becomes a little bit more in cdr three you all those little channels begin to open up and work normally and you begin to all the receptors for your hormones and the other neuropeptides and things began to work more normally and then you back in communication so you're kind of the the cell danger response is that time when your cells are really kind of offline from the whole now this happens obviously usually just in small parts I mean I think that's what people miss I want you to keep going but I want to actually share this is from your website just so people can see this for just a moment can you see that yes people can see what you're talking about and I'll just leave this up just for a minute while you're talking this is from your website gordonmedical.com this is dr navio's slide because what I want to be always is clear is that um you know what what clean there are some clinicians I mean to be fair like dr like ritchie shoemaker dr shoemaker okay who are really research clinicians okay I am a clinician I treat the person in front of me what I how I help researchers occasionally with an idea to but but mostly by supplying patients you know and really defining who they are because that's one of the big problems with the research in our field is that the patient selection for a lot of these studies is very poor especially in the chronic fatigue world okay so that being said um so this is dr navio's work um you know I always said you know his brain my my my bronze okay um and as you can see oops well I just don't know I'll figure there for you okay now I'm sorry well that that's okay but um so you can see is that he's and this is a newer slide because when he first started off he was just calling it the cell danger response and then he he really wanted to you know open to get away from this pathology based response okay and try to show that wait a minute this is the healthiest life cycle it only becomes the healing and aging cycle when we get stuck in one of these pathways okay and that's where we get into chronic illness is that when um and most of the chronic illnesses that we deal with are um but are predominantly in that cdr three range I mean there are plenty that we deal with that in the cdr two um you know as far as you know heart disease and diabetes and things like that but the um you know the the chronic um the Lyme and things of that sort are really you know more cdr three um you know the mass cell disorder I guess cdr one probably but it's it's all a question of um restoring communication and each one of these each one of these steps steps in the cycle your mitochondria and I think this is I'm just going to be brief about this part because I don't get too technical but um the other amazing thing um is that we were always talked that the mitochondria were basically the powerhouse of the cell they made energy that's what they did you know when you're a mitochondrial and we were taught that in the diseases that we treat that had a lot of fatigue the mitochondria were broken yeah I mean not that they were dysfunctional but we really thought that they were like poisoned and broken and sometimes they are poisoned that is true but usually they're not broken most of the time they are deciding that the the mitochondria actually is the is the organelle that senses danger okay and then programs the nucleus to respond and to change to start putting out the chemicals that um tell tell the tell the cell what to do next to respond to danger so the simplest thing is the mitochondria when you have like a virus the virus will be using up your own um nutrients basically okay and so the vital on the mitochondria sees that it kind of browns out yes it acts like I always compare it to the old days the feudal castle you know when the van you know like when the um when the marauders were coming you like locked the castle and you burnt the fields so you deprived them of you know they couldn't stay they couldn't lay seeds for a long time because they had no supplies okay well your cells work the same way okay even a single cell organism when a virus enters your mitochondria stop making ATP like they used to at least they lower it very very much and when when you stop making ATP you don't use oxygen mitochondria are the part of this organ or are the the organelle in your cell that is like a sink it uses up the oxygen so when you stop doing that the oxygen concentration in the what we call the cytoplasm the gunk that's in the cell okay goes up and that creates oxidative stress yeah but that happens not because the bug did it it's because your body is doing that to create a bad environment for the bug the infection yes okay and then when all goes well okay then um so the first thing that does is some of your ATP gets transported to the cell membrane and acts as a signaling molecule and that's the other thing that was really important that he taught us that ATP and other things called purines signal danger to the body and the same signal can be you're gonna you're really sick or it can be as mild as what makes you remember better because it's like when you're when you you know we see so many things we remember stuff that's dangerous right okay and we do that because the ATP on the cell goes up and it helps get the dopamine yes to work better and we remember you know so um anyway so ATP is a signaling molecule not just an energy molecule the mitochondria is an energy producing but also our immune quarterback yes okay so um and you know when in health when things when you're in a normal healthy cycle the you first start to make a lot of inflammatory chemicals and then your body starts to create lots of anti-inflammatory chemicals okay I mean that's why a lot of the herbs work a lot of the herbs that we use are actually pro-oxidants yeah there's no reason why PRP works or some of these um pro a prolotherapy where you inject joint inflammatory molecules so that you get a response to the site for healing right exactly we're turning on the healing response the when we get into trouble is when because of a toxin or because of something an earlier infection has done to us we're not able to turn that healing cycle we're not able to get to the next step but we get the bottom line is it gets stuck right it gets stuck in one of those now let's talk just a little bit about um cd uh cdr one cdr two cdr three they kind of have different like if someone gets stuck in one versus two or three they may manifest and you might want to also talk about like we talked about Lyme and um mold and these chronic things that you and I see all the time why is that so relevant for those particular patients why is this? Well because it helps it helps us understand that um you know because sometimes you get frustrated when you're trying to put out the fire okay and you have to realize that in order to put out the fire we have to change the movie we have to change the information not just give the raw materials okay you know like so when someone's fatigued you know many or we think their mitochondria aren't working well you know well many times people want to give now you know nad's the new flavor of the month but nad coq10 you know the pqq's all these things that are good for your mitochondria you know but when you're really stuck in cdr one yes you can give all you want and sometimes would you say it could make it worse I don't know for sure but I have a theory that it's possible if you're pushing production of ATP is that theoretically possible that you could actually fan the flames or good but I the thing is is that you since the block is usually before that it's not but one interesting thing about ATP just a pearl this is for the patients and the clinicians because I you know one of that sense of air hunger yes many people describe okay that we often think of as babesia because it often is associated with babesia but it can show up lots of ways there was some studies in the 90s they were they tried to use injectable ATP for the catexia for the weight loss of cancer you know people because they thought this would give them some strength and restore their you know it's the energy you know we're going to give them energy and one of the big side effects was air hunger okay you see because it's a danger signal you know um ATP is supposed to be in this it's inside the cell um outside outside that's a thing right the core here is ATP in the cell beautiful ATP outside the cell the body's like whoa there's something not supposed to be there's something not right here that's a big key principle isn't it wrong location wrong yeah and and and that that's why we we struggle I'm gonna do a little quick divot to the right I'll be real fast but why we struggle with a lot of the functional tests that we do because I love them we all do them but you know when you're measuring um bio you know biochemicals when you're measuring succinate you know take a chemical you know but it's involved in a thousand different reactions in the you know and so we assume that when we're measuring succinate we're doing it because it's in the crab cycle but you know right it might be a totally agree you really I always say that little random I mean this is another random side note too but that's that's all good like urinary microtoxins can indicate mold can indicate you're excreting them which might be good right so you have to think about the context of the testing and make a decision based on that yeah you know I mean this is what I'm still struggling with with with with this issue because I mean see when it comes to mercury I know because I've been doing mercury since 92 and I have enough I'm positive I know what I'm doing which might be arrogant and maybe I'm wrong but but I've seen so many people with super high you know provoked mercury levels but you just stop their fish they're just really really good at getting rid of it you know they're healthy you know it's the ones whose mercury levels never get above 11 who are often chronically ill yes you know because they can't mobilize they're not able to do it and you're right and this is this has always been the question and hopefully I see I I mean I just doing I mean I have a little hopefully a little something to do with that I kept prodding um because I want to know that answer because you know this goes way back now we're doing research we collected the money I helped contribute then we're going to do the research over it's going to be wonderful because this is something that I said I've argued with many doctors about for years because I'm yeah um I can agree more with you again I would say it's a simple way to describe this is mobilization excretion we can mobilize really well but if we're not excreting we get stuck it get people get more toxic so these concepts are so critical right yeah and we just and you know this is why um research in our field is so important and like I'm so proud that I see I is taking that step because I've been I've always been upset that the functional labs that we use um haven't stood up over the last I mean because I've been using some of these labs literally for 35 I was doing Genova when it was the little it was the guys in New Jersey you know and it's like smokey great smokey but no when he when he started it he was in New Jersey in the in the early 80s you know then he moved to Asheville but it's just like you know they've made so much money we should be they should be helping us they should be leading the edge of recent because we would use it I mean yeah anyways okay it's a frustration because they help us they definitely guide our therapy but there we would we're all looking for the cbc of functional medicine okay and that just getting back to our topic the metabolism the metabolomics and Dr. W's work how I got really carried away was I was hoping that would that we were going to be able to use metabolomics to define and help you tell me what to do right okay that was that's that's been my prayer since I've got into this field is that I'm going to get a test that's going to be an abc you know I would like that you know you know and we we have things that are a and maybe be um so the metabolomics okay and where this comes in is that what what gets you from cell danger from cdr1 to cdr2 to cdr3 are fluxes in metabolites okay see and this is the other big piece is that we've always thought of the body is the communication network is you know hormones yeah and now we've accepted cytokines you know the inflammatory chemicals that the white blood cells make and other cells make and um you know neurotransmitters but what turns on and turns off genes and what a lot of the information in the system is is the simple metabolites not just ATP but succinate fumarate acetyl coa um you know just oxygen levels um you know the the raw materials of metabolism okay also control what genes are expressed okay because remember you know people talk about gene about epigenetics well that's because there's changes in these things called histones that decide where what what part of the dna gets expressed because we only express little bits and when you're sick okay and you don't methylate all of a sudden you start expressing more places it's almost like opening pandora's box you know your body's really in trouble you start throwing out lots of ideas you know you make you actually do that you actually I mean that's why we wind up with sometimes retroviral particles coming out because we got a ton of retroviral dna and we don't really understand why it's there sometimes it's useful sometimes it gets us sick but anyway so um the metabolites really are controlling the show and what's interesting is that um you know the the um the lipids things like we call them ceramides and single lipids and these are names that to be honest I had vague idea about before I learned about this I mean they're they're just they're long chain fatty acids um they're a little bit they're organized a little differently and they are big communication molecules but they're still small relatively enzymes have thousands and hundreds of thousands of carbon atoms these guys are all like having like you know 10 20 50 I mean 50s a lot you know it you know they're small relatively small molecules but these are what determine our state of health you know and we try to and when you're healthy you can make big changes just by putting in the right nutrients and trying to feed these things but when you're sick yeah your body is using these as signaling molecules that keep you that can keep you stuck so let's go so cell danger response so important I feel like you've really done a great job of explaining that we kind of gave a little visual as I went through my and um but what's the practical application of a patient um with limer mold or Texas D how would you approach them and how would the cell danger response practically change our treatment that's the right to be honest at this point not as much as I would like me too I agree that's why I asked that let me just because you see what happened is that we did that study in 2000s we actually did it in 14 and was published in 16 and we've been working on it since and what we were trying to do was establish what where the imbalance was in the system right okay and which part a group of chemicals and for chronic fatigue we could get a pretty good idea but it still didn't give us a yeah of what we were looking for which is a way and we're still looking at like how do we rebalance the system so but when it comes to line I think the important part of the cell danger response is the thinking process I mean it just it just gets you to go back and realize that what we have with almost any chronic infection is a failure to communicate yes you know um the and and and and you know whether you wind up with mass cell disorder on top of that or um just neuropathic pain okay can just depend on where your genetic weakness is what what your weak link is or what other exposures you have and um you know where I find the cell danger response helpful is that it keeps bringing back to um think about the milieu you know um think about is there another piece that can be balanced because when we realize that um you know when when you have um the cell danger response it's not a thing in itself it's just part of the body's process and you can have cells in your liver that are stuck in cdr1 and you can wind up with chronic hepatitis you know but it's only a small pocket it's not in your whole liver often you know I mean or you can have um some that are stuck in cdr3 and more likely those are going to help keep you toxic yeah okay because you're not going to be communicating well and those are going to be offline and not able to be dealing when they when they when they start absorbing things they're not going to be able to process them well and communicate to those around them so um you know the cdr3 is um the cdr system is more at this point a way of thinking and and also getting us out of the habit of thinking that we're going to kill the bug and fix the problem okay I love that you're saying that because I couldn't agree more like this is a foundational it's almost like the earth was flat and now it's round it's that kind of a paradigm shift in our field of understanding of what mechanisms are causing and so those of your patients are listening and like well what's the pill there's no pill there's no one-size-fits-all just like we started but um I don't want you to lose hope or feel like we're just talking way up here on an esoteric level because this is really critical I agree with you Dr. Gordon when I understood this and heard this a couple years ago it was game changing and how I think about the patients and that matters to you because Dr. Gordon I when we sit in front of you we have a different paradigm that helps us better to understand even if we don't have every single last answer yet we're moving in that direction and I feel like it's I kind of just wanted to frame it because I agree with you it's not like it gives us one pill for an ill but it does frame things so importantly in a different way wouldn't you agree it gives yes any I mean this again it's the frustrating thing for the patients because to be honest we were we were going to try to you know semi-commercialize for research so we could do more research the metabolic test for chronic fatigue in the beginning and the reason we didn't do it is because it was going to cost $1,500 to the patient and at the end of the day I really wasn't going to be able to do anything that different for them and I knew the chronic fatigue world is full of patients who don't have much money for them to throw $1,500 away and they were lining up to do it it was no we couldn't do that I would have loved to because we would have gotten the data but we would have heard a lot of people because we love that ethic I couldn't ask more because it's always like is this test going to change your intervention yeah yeah it will in time but you know I like to you know when we're in the when we're training in conventional medicine we unfortunately learn on people without resources in the email okay and now the only good thing is that now we learn on people with resources because we are learning because people can afford to do these tests that aren't perfect but we keep learning and getting better at we do because these people can afford it yes we are again I just feel even the last two years since I've seen the researchers they continue to be a ha's and you're continuing to do research I'm continuing to spread the word so gosh thank you so much for just expounding in a really wonderful way about this it's such a complex topic if anyone's interested I'm going to include the articles I'll include link to Dr. Gordon's website and everything where can people I mean you've got your website where else can people find you are you taking patients tell us just a little bit about your practice yeah I you know we I'm still taking patients I prefer to take patients who have been ill for a long time and and just need another look you know um you know we we we the practice taking patients um you know Dr. Parpe who's on here um is taking patients and I mean what she is amazing at is um guiding people back to health I'm you know what I'm really good at is figuring out what's wrong yeah okay that's what I do very well not wrong but you're a detective yeah I love that and right now I've got you know two young naturopaths working with me who are doing some patient research on the side so it's really that's what I do but when it comes to treatment Dr. Parpe it just it has the one because I my attention span is I'm I'm I'm a little too all over the place and it's like I can when I see the beauty of her work you know because I always want to fix the thing in front of me it's that regular doctor stuff or no and what happens is that you can keep treating with band-aids and which are great to get someone strong enough to begin to heal but that's what I love what some Dr. Parpe does is that she gets people into the process of healing and doesn't get as distracted as I can by like oh here try this we need all these types right like we need you to do the research and be thinking outside the box and I just have I want to publicly say I have the greatest gratitude you are one of the pioneers in our field and I have great respect and gratitude for all that you've done and continue to do and even just your heart comes across you're genuine you're humble and you know it's funny there's not a lot of that left in our medical world so thank you for coming on today thank you for sharing your heart and your research and I will be sure and link back everybody if you want to know more about Dr. Gordon to practice Dr. Parpea it's been a pleasure talking to you okay well thank you Jill you've been great and I said next time we'll make a more linear story for you it was perfect I think you're very proud take care and have a great rest okay you too pleasure