 Hi everybody, I'm Alejandro. I'm a researcher here at IAED and I lead some of our work on food systems a bit of agriculture, a bit of markets, a bit of consumption so we try to do a little bit of everything and it's my great pleasure to welcome you to IAED and to introduce our guests Before I do that, I just mentioned that we have an empty chair here for a third guest who is on her way She's coming all the way up from Scotland and we expect her to be here soon So when she comes in, we'll tell you about her thoughts, please And I'll briefly tell you what we want to achieve. I'll just spend a few minutes doing that. So first our guest, who have arrived Teresa Tinto Correa, she's a professor at the University of Eurora in Portugal and she was the lead of this big enormous European research project called Salsa and she might explain why they chose that particular acronym I assure you that there was no dancing involved in any of the work Teresa has very kindly accepted our invitation to come to Portugal just to tell us what this project was about and I think it's a very pertinent and current discussion The future of farming in the EU Then we have Vicky Hertz. She's a sustain and she's a very well-known actor and container on all sorts of food and farming related issues Some of you will have met her or heard about her We're very glad that she was able to make it and our third guest Well, I'll introduce her when she arrives again, but she is Rosemary champion who runs a small holder cooperative or association in Scotland and she was In a way linked to this research project activities will not look out So she's not a stranger to the project in though. We haven't met her personally, but she knows how Let me explain in a couple of minutes why Small-scale farming and why at IID in particular why small-scale farming in Europe 22 and the first five by small-scale IID's mission and other work has to do with What we say for course through broadly as the poor and marginalized and so across IID we work with? small-scale enterprises in forestry food Community organizations we have very strong partnerships with with organizations around the world but always in a way looking to work with and associate with and work together with People or groups of people who have less boys or who are less powerful that is kind of in the DNA of IID So naturally when we look at food and agriculture we kind of tend to Drift to that part of the food system small-scale Production small-scale market small-scale retails And for us small-scale farming is part of our bread and butter and I Colleague the food systems work and I have the along with my colleague Barbara who has also involved in such a and Are particularly Barbara whose whose expertise in agriculture? Small-scale is What we encounter in our work every day what is less Common for IID is this focus on Europe because for those of you who know idea and those who we don't our Purview and portfolio of work is really in developing countries Particular also Asia Latin America. So that's where we are We are the international So a lot of our work is looking at the end of the world and the global south So even though small-scale farming is part of our what we do The whole Europe and UK thing is not And I just wanted to briefly say a couple of things about that one is Why we ended up doing this and hosting this debate here partly is by accident or not accident But by chance we ended up involving this product and as Teresa will explain in a bit the project The mandate from the European Commission when they funded this project was we want something on small-scale farming in Europe And please include something. We don't know what on Africa It was a little bit like that. I'm excited And so somebody said oh, I didn't know how a small-scale farming in Africa So we kind of got typed into the food. So that is a practical reason why we're here with our part of this point But as we've been involved and so we have By having worked by virtue of having worked so much in the European world world We to us small-scale farming as I said is is a normal thing When we looked at Europe, we're like, oh, why is what's so special as most confirming? That's what we do every day, but we just realize that in the European debate and context is not it's a bit under the radar So while we in Africa, it's everything or most of it here. It's a little bit under So it was very intriguing for us to be involved in a project. I was looking at something that Thematically is very much in the core of what we do by in a region that we didn't know anything out and that which happens to be like our backyard And so it's that contradiction wasn't possible. You know, we know a lot We know much more about small-scale farming in Uganda than up in Scotland or closer in And we realized that as we speak of SDGs and the climate social challenge of not only of food but across all domains is idea of of the universal in SDGs we need to kind of We need to practice it. And so we cannot just Only look at Africa and Latin America, which we continue to do and we do it very well But that there are similar Challenges don't know identical, but there's there's things that span all these places and that we need to be aware of And that this project has a bit have had a video as a chance to So that is the context of why we're here and why this project is being discussed here and I think I'll give it to Teresa and the way we're gonna run it. Teresa is gonna give us a quick summary of the project what we found What it was about and then Vicky will have a chance to respond based on her experience in the UK And then those marry when and if she arrives Will tell us a little bit about what a small-scale farmer in Scotland makes for some Okay And then I will quickly presented the project south says just And as Alexander said this was not a project we we've built on something we were interested but something we were interested to reply to a Project and the code very detailed and what needed to be there So you you cannot really design what you think they would like to do but you are Replying to something they want to know and we think that mainly the interest was in revealing What is there about small farms? How are small farms doing? What is their role because they are always a very often under the rather policies Yes, so we are almost at the end of the project the project is around for four years We have a lot a lot of results I will only present very shortly because the idea is that we debate here and I had a bit longer presentation by an example But that was the country's So the country's we studied in Europe we studied 25 regions and it's not three regions So it's medium-sized regions and then a few five in Africa only because the idea was this it's an European project But then please understand also a little bit of Africa and what we adopted from the beginning Which is new in relation to other projects with you the food systems that we were looking inside the region So we adopted this territorial approach. We wanted to understand in each region. What happens inside the region? What are small farms producing which stays in the region or goes out who is consuming what small farms produce? How are the relationship because we we the concern is that we also understand what in one region can condition more or less How small farms are Behaving so that not just by physical context, but how urbanized it is how many people there are of course did it is so Look at the region and understand the region So the whole thing the whole project was concentrated on these 25 regions and we have not studied outside it So one of the things we did which was very new was to look at small farms from the perspective of these Satellite images, so I will not develop it very much, but we have done these Maps of small farms location and the crops they are producing in each of the region study And it was validated with with points in the field so that we now know exactly we have maps and we can continue monitoring what happens So you have combined the information from the satellite images With information from the field and it's there so we can we have both Assessed how much they are producing now our big area They feel in each crop in the region But also we can continue monitoring how they change for instance in relation to certain policies or certain types of market mechanisms What will happen and we can reply very fast because the satellite they they run every 10 days There's a new image, so it's it makes it very possible to assess very shortly in short term what's what's happening and We produce these maps which are maps in each region for instance This is a region in Portugal one of the reasons we studied and there's the wine and The pay the peer production and what we because we also did field work and introduced small farms So we could assess how much they are producing So an estimation of the total production and then we could match these to the total consumption So we could assess how much of what small farms were producing would feed or be able to feed to the Regional consumption so we know that the food system is not does not have these regional boundaries But if we wanted to have it more localized these food systems What would be possible to be given by small farms to the consumers in the region? And we have some numbers and it's just But it's just this is just to show you the bars which are the upper part They show that in these regions and for these products We have much more produced in the region than it's consumed than the consumption needs So that it's possible some of this is for export of course But we could Recentralize a real localized food systems for some products based on the small farms production That would be possible. So I'm not going into detail But it's just to show you some regions specially in eastern Europe and in southern Europe We have like potatoes or fruits or olive oil which is produced enough in the region for the consumption So from the remote sensing part, which was a big part of salsa what we have it's The main results is these that we have many different crop types So small farms have a huge diversity in crop types what increases farm Biodiversity and the smaller the smaller the farms the more diversity we have so the more biodiversity farm biodiversity There is and the more landscape diversity also They play small farms play a central role in consumption for some of the key products reanalyzed and small farms also Secure a very important part of the production also which is sent for export Most of the production also for export is production from small farms So that they have a role also in the food and not just in In the communities or in rural development activity Then we did a survey to all to a sample of small farms in each region. So we did it in choirs and We did also workshops and focus groups and the different types of workshops at the regional level And we find with the analysis of the old data for Europe So now I'm just talking about Europe. We came up to this typology of small farms And this is also new that there is there's different types which can clearly be identified and there are What we were expecting in the beginning is that there will be small farms which never relate to the market They are self-provisioned farms and small farms And what we have is that all small farms somehow relate to the market, but they do it stronger or weaker So we have a group of small farms which have more informal market orientation and then we have the part-time farms Which very often it's a lifestyle issue and we have peasant farms, which are the ones which are poor they depend a lot on farming for the household economy and And they connect to they are older also they connect to the market But they also have a lot which is for their own household and then we have the stronger market orientation and we have some which are really Very specialized and I mean in southern Europe They're very specialized and they sell super parent is to export But we have some which are new enterprises younger people which do different types of the combined production with processing They combine with different types of value chains and we also have these are close to each other But the diversified they are more organized in comparatives like the other ones They have different ways of marketing and this is valid for the whole of Europe And it shows that there are different types of small farms, but not really just self provisioning and on self provisioning They all do a bit of self provisioning and they all relate to the market But in different ways and some these ones which we tend to sing or very often in policies There's a an approach or a discourse about small farms that they are part-time or they are peasant farms Which are very traditional. It's not really what we found We found many of those who rely on the market relate to the market in a very Conscient way or a way away. That's what they want to do So we also analyze the food system the farm how the small farms are placed in the food system We analyzed a hundred and nine food system. So we analyze the food system per product so the food system for peer or the food system for For potatoes or the food system for vegetables and the first scheme is the one we used to discuss With the stakeholders in these participatory meetings And that's the one we produced with the production and then linking to processing to Distribution and to consumption and it made it possible to see for us How many channels do small farms used to sell their products? How much of their production stays locally or goes to processing or goes to someone else? and One of the main also results is to see that there are different types of food systems the ones we have High up here is the ones who are more locally oriented So the food circulates more in the region and here in this side The other ones where there is a high share of small farms So it's local food systems where small farms are very important and they are very more frequent in Eastern Europe And then in Southern Europe. We have more export oriented and that was a surprise With a high share of small farms in some cases like the olive production or the citrus production And then in Northern Europe. We have both Export and locally oriented, but where small farms are not so important large And then what can we say once something which is very important is how small farms who they relate to and First and they relate they can relate to Cooperatives they can relate to processes to direct selling so you can say you can see that B and C Which are the ones which are more locally oriented They have for instance a lot of direct selling. So it's not always the same channels small farms use and they can direct Sales to direct selling they have self provisioning Only if you relate directly to exporters for instance They relate more to and and some of those who are exporting is two cooperatives. That's in the A and C So I know this is a lot of information, but hopefully it will give you a picture And this is something which we also find it's very important is that self provisioning is common across all food systems So there is always an important share of what small farms produce which So we have medium and high self provisioning in all of the types of food systems So these in bars what you have is a type of food systems are how it circulates in the region But I think so the food system analysis that the main findings Is that we have a high diversity of profiles We we are moving behind this good subsistence commercial device Small farms contribute to food availability stability and also access in different in different food systems And the first buyer matters. So how much how do we like who is who is dealing who is handling to the small farm? Small farms connection to small food business were weaker than what we expected that can be due to different reasons The small food business seem to buy more to large farms or maybe we didn't get the right small food business So this we will need to explore this More and then I think something which is maybe more interesting is that what we are asking them Also, what were the needs and we are asking to these to do the association small farms are dealing with What could be more important for them to be maintained and to continuing have a role in the food system And one of them is access to technology and knowledge. So they are very much Very often they don't have access to support to extension services because they are paid or because they are organized to other sectors And they were very much concerned about climate change one of the questions We asked was about what risks they consider were the most important risks and climate change surprisingly We think it was not so important But the problem also is that very often they are concerned about climate change and they don't have the resources to adapt To buy new technologies or they don't have access to the knowledge We could be needed for them to better cope with climate change. So this is this is a concern The diversity of value change is also they would like to continue being connected to value chains in a different way So through non-convention or maybe value chains, which they don't they don't have the capacity but on their own to Deal with so they would like to have new dedicated quality schemes that it was more There was more support to value chains, which were linked to small farms particularly Then they were asking for tailored policy mechanisms because very often the needs or what is specified for fun to sell their products It's too demanding for a small farm. So they would like to have rules, which are more specific in terms of quality requirements and then One something which is very important is that they would need more support to collective action because There's cooperatives, but the cooperatives existing they are very mainstream and they all sell in the same way and very often with No added value. So they would like to have More well-trained Cooperatives or those who lead the cooperatives that could help them better So maybe one of the possibilities is that the public support would be more meaningful if it was given not to single farms But to collective the groups of farms of these small farms So we also have a bit on gender. So we found more women in smaller farms than normally there isn't bigger farms And maybe we could have and also in the processing women are Currently represented in small farms, but yeah, and we also found that there are more women in small farms But very often they are in the in the poor farms. So the more poor family we have more women than men Women are normally representing in the farmer organizations But still they are not so much and those who are there they are representing the rural parts of the Processing or the distribution or rural activities and not really production So and they are support policies, but we don't have data to show what what is the effect of the policies? So we need a bit more information Then just to finish finalize What the the final work was to assess what were how good policy helps more funds What were the policy mechanisms which could happen facing their needs? What and facing their differences in these different types? What were the policy? Possible policy mechanisms to help them and we defiled it in because that and that was all the result of these participatory Processes that they are small farms They need support to exist to be there to do not abandon farming to produce and To market so there's the different types of support And this is generally for all the small farms in Europe that In some cases better connectivity. They all need more support in terms of extension services Some in some cases it's more for the marketing they need support So the policy should reach and for northern Europe That's what I brought here because we did it per macro region So southern Europe eastern Europe and northern Europe in northern Europe especially in Scotland in northern France There's a big issue with access to land so small farms are missing Would like to have policies which help them to have access to land and to market and to Provide added value to the quality of their product. So the marketing issue. It was really Made very clear that there was a need while in Norway for instance There was more connectivity because they are much more isolated and The question of people to have enough people to deal with or enough people so that a community which is a life It's a problem in Norway, which is not a problem here So in terms of Priority measures or policy measures There will be the question of the regulation of the land reform in Scotland so that will be more easy to have access to land Rural services so depending on the common agriculture policy But now also on the UK policy to have more services to help farmers and probably new proposals Which they are not they are but this question of new color collaborative models to have access to land so that small farms can be Together together have access to land working cooperatives or in another form of organization for the for the poll for the products there was a Very high demand for this more clear food brands more clear brand a brand name of small farms products Alternative food networks, which would really recognize the value of these Small farms and then well more support for food businesses because if they were food business Maintained in rural areas very often the support is very short-term and then they cannot keep on the long run So this is part of the the result We have the same for southern Europe for eastern Europe and they are different the needs are different so this Strongly for from our point of view defense that we should have policies Which are tailored to the different needs different types of small farms and the different types of regions and that's all I mean that's there's a lot more in south and I hope to have some questions from you But that was what I was allowed to present Are we allowed to take questions or maybe maybe maybe we can take just a couple of quick questions pressing questions just after How do you define a small farm? So we debated that a lot in the beginning also even before we applied for the project Because we wanted to to show that we knew how to define a small farm But still we had to continue discussing when we have a project because it's very context-dependent So what we defined when we did the first analysis We did it based on existing indicators and there we had to define a threshold and that was five actors or eight economic units, which is about eight thousand euros per year as an income and that but that was We know it's not good enough But we had to define in order to classify the regions where how small farms are distributed in different regions to select our regions We defined this but then when we went into the regions We worked very much participatory and the first key informants They helped us to say in this food system if you consider this threshold is too small So we adapted a little bit, but we mainly it's more in relation to the remaining Farm structure. So if you have for instance land producers, they need a lot of grazing area They are typically extensive so they need more lands, but they can if they have only 10 sheep or 20 sheep They're still small farms, so we adapted a little bit and it was so we accept differences depending on the context And depending on the food system So small as smallness is more defined in relation to the context into the farm structure But there's a kind of approach the five actors was used and for the world normally two actors is used five actors for Africa would be too big But for Europe two actors would really be too small Thank you very excellent very interesting presentation. You mentioned that Ideally support would be given to groups of small farmers over the individual farms But if the farmers are not aggregated in some way through cooperatives or whatever Structures, how would that be done? Yeah, but what they what the demand was we did to help farmers organizing themselves So the idea was especially for having access to land as the prices of land are very expensive It will be difficult also to the small farms to buy small pieces of land But if there could be any type of new mechanism to help them get something together So it could be you know, you could buy land together, maybe divide it or work together That would be so it's it's that's why it's new it's somehow No, maybe a solution is that you help small farms work together For being able to have access to land in a more efficient way than just alone And I think this the question is that they are organizations helping small farms But very often they are very traditional and they have not really moved while you have more innovative Organizations in other you know other types of farms in small farms many of the cooperatives we found They were very mainstream and they don't come up with these type of new solutions Maybe one more and then we can go on yeah in your introduction you briefly explained African cases were supposed to be integrated, but I'm just wondering what the what the rationale behind that was especially with Results you just presented it wasn't really clear What the results from the African cases were and how they fed into Yeah, well, yeah, we have the top of the topology of presented It's only for Europe because we thought maybe it was more interesting to present here because it's what is different from what? Ied not only does but we have a topology which get us all the farm So it's about 1000 small farms interview and we have the time class slightly different We don't really have part-time farms in the same way when we put them all together But they are more or less this divide between strong and weak market integration is still there And we have a lot of the small farms in Africa the ones who are passing from they are poor Then the ones in Europe we call them struggles because they are there the more the impression or the data We have is that they are struggling to survive They continue doing farming because that's what they can do But it's not so easy as it in Europe even if they are poor They have a slightly higher income level in the family So we have done exactly the same in the African regions But it's difficult to say that we can say something about Africa because Africa is a huge continent We have only these five regions why in Europe you have 25 So we we cover more of the if even if you cannot say it's representative But we have a huge universe that our population is very important in Europe and not in Africa So in Africa we have different crops We have more more poor farmers, but we also have these swarms who are connected to the market And we are also have new new commerce to farming to do different things So it's a bit of the same with some specific Well, thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me I have to say when I agreed to give a response to this work It was kind of like this is an area that sustain is really interested in We've done a lot of work to try and promote farm diversity And try and persuade people politicians of the value of farm diversity But I haven't actually done much of that in the last few last couple of years And so it was a really good chance to refresh my thinking on it So thank you very much on that and I think this work is extremely valuable and I would use it So that's one reflection The work that we've been doing just looking thinking in the past one of the Big problems we've identified over the last and many people have identified over the last Few decades is this massive loss of small farms and the loss of farm diversity In Europe. I'm talking particularly about Europe and particularly about the UK And what One of the reasons that sustain came into existence was to try and counter that And that was actually 30 years ago Although it was a different form then but the alliance itself still cares very much about the continued loss of small farms because of the range of Issues that you identified. I think some of them in terms of the Things that the small farm as part of a diverse farm system delivers for Society and it's jobs. It's Maintaining rural cohesion. It's maintaining features in the landscape, which can be very important for tourism and the tourism pound Thinking about passive environmental factors that can arise from a small farm compared to when a farm gets much larger And they can be The passive meaning that they're not actively sought in these outcomes, but things to do with being smaller fields Maybe less tidy less application of high inputs or high energy or high machinery and things things like that. So we identify that and we Couple of years ago. We did a Statement on the need for specific support for maintaining a diverse farm structure in the UK Because we and we identified what the reasons for doing that and this is all on a website can have a look But it's it's very interesting to hear your presentation with regard to this because one of the things that We recognize is that if we lose further farms and there are predictions that as a result of brexit We'll lose 25 for farms in the UK, which would be a big loss in many areas But some people will see that as an inevitable outcome of a more market-oriented system Um And great. We'll just have lots of big farmers doing things very efficiently and very green things like that But there's loads of reasons for not doing that. So we we've put together a Statement and a set of policy asks and it's interesting your policy You know the kind of things you came up your policy. You didn't actually mention subsidies And I was wondering if that came up in in the discussions because obviously subsidies have actually maintained a lot of the small farms across Europe They would have gone far quicker if we didn't have the common agricultural policy And that that's well recognized and it's one of the reasons for the common agricultural policy to maintain employment in rural areas and maintain The market and the activities in rural areas And now we're facing both in the UK A new agriculture bill which was launched last Thursday, which I can talk about a bit more if if you want to but There's so much I could say about that I don't know where to start and how it relates to what you've just talked about. Because I think A lot of it has been about Changing the way we sport farming in the UK to pay for public goods and a lot of the time people are talking about public goods They say the environmental public goods see Biodiversity, habitats, nature possibly reducing pollution and protecting water causes, etc Whereas we'd like to see it as a much broader definition of public goods to maintain communities and deliver really Sustainable and diverse farming systems in in rural areas to deliver for potentially Large-scale Commodity markets But also for more regional and local markets and we see a real benefit in growing those more local and regional markets The diversity of production to do that As we face at climate and nature emergency globally, we will I think it's a global Objective we we should see that we actually are starting to be able to feed ourselves better Rather than focusing on large-scale export-led Very specialized farming systems which have been the norm in terms of the direction travel for our food system For the past 50 years. I think that that norm for the past 50 years We've been getting more and more specialized larger farms ever more Specialized farming systems and centralized processing systems globally and that's really hitting Africa at the moment You can see that in many of the livestock industry and developments there But if you get more and more specialized you lose the capacity to really feed yourself and to deliver Where you need to on diversity at the local level and that's not just In the biodiversity but diversity in farming and diversity in food. It's a big big things to be talking about I'm sorry, but they are brought up by what you said I think it's really interesting how you talked about whether small farmers do relate to the market and you found they did And I think that's really encouraging and that's what we really need to encourage and that's why I've got a program of work which is about really building up the Better trading platforms for small farms and medium-sized farms in the uk small farm is very different as you noted from A small farm in Romania for instance, but they Don't now have the capacity the the storage the milling the abattoirs the cutting rooms All the infrastructure that they once had to be able to serve a market in the region That's all gone largely and we're losing abattoirs at a staggering rate I mean that's that's a really big issue for a lot of the small-scale meat producers and the the growing Number of people do want to do meat really sustainably the ethically It's really hard because they can't find a look abattoir But those kind of things we really need to build up again That's what we want to see and relating the small farms to those Development infrastructure we want to see that as an outcome of farm policy new farm policy As well as advice as well as the technologies that Appropriate technologies we say that farms need access to and the small farms More than big farms have struggle Have a struggle in finding the time to access technologies and new New ways of farming to access the training and advice so we need really farmer-led And farmer-scale training delivery For instance low helping your soil to to have more carbon in it that there's a lot going on in the UK on that in the moment It's really exciting But is it reaching all the farmers and all the small farmers because they've got no time to get out of the farm They've possibly got no Workers on the farm. It's all done with it. It's all these kind of things It's got to be farmer-led and farmer appropriate in order for them to actually get the benefit and To be able to work together. So I also think one final point. I think absolutely Clear in your work Is the need for them to cooperate and collaborate together and we're trying to persuade deffra that that What they're suggesting now in terms of the new farm support scheme Which is in you in England. It's called the environmental land management scheme The farmers who group together in a landscape scale or in a catchment scale will get get They'll get rewarded for doing it as a collection because you'll get Larger outputs for the public from you know, bigger bong bong for their back for their taxpayers money If they work together to deliver on a catchment problem, you know, pollution problem or to deliver a particular biodiversity outcome We we are trying to persuade them that that that should also be for small-scale farmers and aren't contiguous I'm just giving this as an example because at the moment deffra are saying it's got to be farmers Contiguous it's side by side. They're neighboring farms in an area because that's the biodiversity benefit or the catchment benefits Well, the is a big woodland corridor or whatever But we we would argue that small farms for instance small growers doing horticulture In a in a region should be able to collaborate together and get and Get the benefit of an environmental land management scheme that recognizes that they are delivering higher environmental or other other outcomes But they're not contiguous. They're not side by side, but they're delivering for the community For instance, a lot of community sported agriculture does a lot of work with local communities and getting them on the farm Getting eating fresh produce. So it was kind of slightly less Recognized public goods. We would like to see in the final Scheme and I think what you were saying about those relating to market and collaboration and cooperation Farmers should be really supported in doing that and and being able to get a stronger Part negotiations with the market and also with their suppliers the seed suppliers and their Machinery suppliers, you know, they've got to be able to collaborate and incorporate Together to to get a fair deal there as well There's loads of things I think I'm saying, but I think there's a lot probably will come out of the discussion We've got a future vision for farming which should include A diversity of farming should include small medium large farms For all the benefits that that matrix provides for society But we are rapidly losing them and we're going to lose loads more unless we do something about it So very interesting this project and the outcomes and we'll promote them. Thank you Thank you That's one of the assessments by a university Well, there's there's a sort of At the moment, there's the whole uncertainty that's been going on for three years Which is meaning we're already losing quite a rapidly Quite a lot of dairy farms for instance, no, um, but the the twin In, um, effects of losing European market And possibly having tariffs put on our products to the European market And diversifying from European standards. So we lose that market all sorts of ways We're losing a really near market that is really useful for small and medium large scale producers so that there's that Um, uh, big problem. There's the issue of a reduction in the basic payment scheme over time over seven years Which is what's being planned? Um, but we'll be replaced with the environmental land management scheme or the new scheme in scotland Well, the normal lines got different names. Um To deliver public goods, but in that process of a shift in that transition A lot of farmers will probably say it's too complicated. I'm going out. I'm going and that's that's what some of the studies have You know the surveys of farmers have suggested And there's also the other problem of having to compete potentially with trading partners overseas in new trade deals where we're um having to compete with very different standards, both labor standards and worker standards, food standards All those kind of things which could be a lot lower in the in the trading and if we're going Very quickly into big trade deals with the u.s or australia They'll have to compete with those and it's going to be very very difficult a lot lower Cost of production in those countries. So that's actually lots of reasons why they're under a lot of Fresh air at the moment and I think it's um something that the I think differ are very live to it But they're working too slowly at the moment to to think about ways to mitigate that Long question Can you see And just by way of background The James Hutton Institute was one of the partners in salsa and they did all the field work in Scotland And so they hooked us up with Because she was one of the group of farmers that they interviewed and consulted for the Scottish style of of this world So she's no stranger to Two sets of other it's the first time you kind of like see a bigger picture. So please did have a seat and Can I stand at the lectern? You can because if I stand there, you won't see how few notes I have Well, thank you very much for inviting me. It's been it's been an epic journalist My train left the Waverly station briefly then it went back And then finally it left again, so we were 85 minutes late, which is good for you because you get to claim the train fare back The European taxpayer If you're more than I think an hour late you get to claim the money back so Thank you for inviting me. It's it's been great fun. I walked up Grey's in road because I was told it would be much quicker to walk Get a taxi Well, just a few things that I was really jotting down on the train as I was, you know, I had extra time on the train Scotland is a critical point As is the uk end of the month we leave the european union And Scotland did not vote to leave the european union. This is not our fault. Okay, this is not our fault But we're leaving anyway For however long we'll see Obviously that has implications for the uk has implications for Scotland for small farmers I'm not so sure there may turn out to be a bad thing because I think there are opportunities for very small farmers to access niche markets with small amounts of produce We farm 22 acres just outside Dundee We produce we breed Rearshetting cattle we breed color drier than sheep We raise a few pigs. We have what's called the Dallamon Clawed Pig Club Where members of the public can sort of rent a pig for the summer and then they get the meat in the autumn And and we do quite a lot of it as you said stuff for ourselves We eat a lot of our own produce and we sell the rest locally now. I sell two steers a year and about Well in a good year, maybe 15 lambs And maybe a couple of some mutton if some of the youths don't get in lamb and they have to Go the way of old youth um So to be honest the loss of export markets I don't like it doesn't matter to me. I don't export anything. It's nothing to smaller than Dundee Nor does the loss of subsidy particularly bother me because what I get in subsidy totals about Uh, maybe 600 pound a year So it's quite nice to get it But if the government says you can't have it then you know We'll manage. We're not going to go to the wall for that But my customers who want locally ethically produced Meat will still keep buying it. They won't stop buying it because there's a chlorinated chicken coming in from from From the usa or hormone fed beef or our horrors land on our supermarket shelves So I think for very small and also my husband has a proper job He just does the grunt work at the weekend So I think for many small farmers very small farmers like us Um, maybe it's an opportunity, you know, they turn a lot to miss you have to be to be a farmer Um, so maybe it won't turn it to be so bad, but there are going to be farms who are very very severely hit There's absolutely no doubt about that Um, and I think it's maybe going to hit the middle ground where they don't have the economies of scale But they're going to be caught by cheap imports and prices for them because the price is plummet They're going to be very adversely effective Who knows who knows what's going to happen next week never mind Um, just to touch on what you said about the the agriculture bill Scotland declined to be part of the uk's agriculture bill Um, we have our own bill currently before hollywood that that went forward as a bill in november Um, because I was coming here today. Uh, I read it A couple of days ago, thanks for that It was a gripper I actually read it and I thought this time There must be more than this somewhere Um, but no, that was it And basically the bill this before hollywood at the moment is a transfer of power and that's all it is It says nothing. It says nothing like what's in the uk 94 pages of uk one I read the first page of the uk one Um, so we're still working away on that and what the scottish government I'm sorry if i'm telling you things you already know This is what the scottish government has decided to do is that between Um, 2021 and 2023 we're going for stability and simplicity So the schemes the scottish government intends to continue the current support schemes until 2024 And um, they will be broadly the same as they are now But they're going to try and simplify some of the regulation And then there's going to be this all singing all dancing new scheme that's going to start 2024 One of the worrying things is that there is a group currently meeting which is called the Let me think it's got a catchy name farming and food policy future working group um, it's It's supported by the scottish land use and rural policy department, which if you read it, it's slurped I Swear they have a department in hollywood that just dreams up that the department entitled um, so slurp I've sponsored this working group and they're going to come up with new policies They're looking at new policies which will feed into whatever support schemes we get 2024 onwards This will either be given the scottish government's rhetoric about climate change food security and sustainability. This could be fantastic Or it could be a total dance work Ask me back in 2024 I mean a lot of the rest of the notes I've got here, you know, you've already already reflected There's a there's a phrase in scottland called the common wheel And that's with public good And public good has all of a sudden become Very fashionable. It's Everybody's talking about farming for the calling for the for the public good will, you know in scottland We call it the common wheel, but it's the same thing um And that's obviously going to be a big emphasis going forward and I think that's right Nobody really owns land. We steward it for the time that We have the opportunity to do to do that, but you kind of take it with you Nobody makes it anymore So we are indeed farming for society. We're farming for climate flints and we're farming for the planet Um, I thought it was interesting the definition of a small farm because Many of us including the scottish government and other organizations have wrestled with us one for a long time Um, I bought five hectares was probably a decent decent stab at it And it is that balance of size versus purpose Five hectares if you're raising cattle or sheep It's quite small Five hectares if you're raising perhaps goats or poultry Or if you're growing particularly in a non mechanized way five hectares is a lot And one of the problems I think the current support scheme In scottland is that the the lower level is three hectares And that makes it very difficult for growers to access funding Um, some colleagues of mine have a market garden and it's three hectares Because three hectares gets you the money But they actually farm less than half of that because that's all they can actually manage To produce food on so They've got a couple of hectares that you know, they might like to use but they can't quite Get the figures together to do that Um, but this three hectare lower level is I think it's excluding people Genuine farmers from support Because what they're growing doesn't lend itself to big areas Um, and given the Scottish diet And we really need more people growing food vegetables Um, we're very good at meat. We're very good at bed meat. Um, we aim quite so good at Going to grow fruit and vegetables certainly on a local scale here. It's it's going into local markets But it's part of the salsa project. Um, I was invited to visit some crops There a couple of days in Inverness. I don't know if you've been to Inverness lovely city Um, we got to visit some crops and what was really interesting was The diversity of them, but also how a lot of new crofters are diversifying the crops And they're moving away from the traditional Tatling shape to Fruit and vegetables are putting up poly tunnels There's new technology available that stops your poly tunnel blown away, but from the rest of them is a pretty big thing So that's That's really hard to see I think but that needs to be wider said than just located in Inverness um Small farms are for far too long been the Cinderella sector of agriculture um The worrying thing for for me and for many of us small farmers is that this food policy Sorry farming and food policy future working group Um, it doesn't have any representation from small holding Scotland, which is The organization that represents small holders nor does it have any representation from the scotchcroft and federation It is outrageous So at the moment the worrying thing is, you know, we've got NFUS. We've got scotchland and states. We've got RSPB We've got citizens advice bureau um So who are who are millen for tractor driving? Um, so it's a wee bit worrying that there's a bit of talking to talk but not actually walking the walk on this um I think some of the problems that small farms experience and I think This you've already raised I think there's pressure to expand small businesses are almost always under pressure to get bigger Even when it's not appropriate And I know small businesses who have felt obliged to expand Particularly by the supermarket sector And then have had the rug pulled out from one of the feet and have folded the business or Ended up selling it on to a bigger concern But we're very very bad at cooperating We're very bad at cooperating. It's like heaven cats um And I think if small farmers could get better at cooperating then we could benefit from the economies of scale Without losing our individual identities and the diversity that's so attractive about small farms But very often small farmers are busy We're running farms very often. We have other jobs as well Um, and we don't have the skills to put together cooperatives So it's not just about money for the day-to-day stuff that we need It's specific money to help us get that expertise in place to last build things like cooperatives Because it's not something that joe public or me Um, can just say oh well i'm gonna start a cooperative for Whatever it's much much more difficult than that um So I think that would set my help The issues of infrastructure Um, you know, we've already shot two avatars Dan and I we shot st. Andrew's avatar. We used to use that and it closed Then we moved on to the plane and it closed um, so now for uh pigs and cattle we have a Five-hour round trip to the nearest avatar at shops um Sheep smells so bad. We can go to cooper which is about 40 minutes away Um, there's a small avatar. They are just recently owned EU funded Um, uh, so, you know, hopefully he's on a stable financial phone now Um, but we have we have a two-and-a-half hour drive to shops to drop off pigs and cattle um Things like getting food processed getting meat processed is is quite difficult getting butchers who are happy to do it And happy to do it to a standard that our customers want Um, I mean, let's face it. I say my butcher, you know doing that right? I'm not coming back to you next year You know, he doesn't care really. He likes me, but he doesn't like me that much that he's going to change his business to suit me um So I think support for cooperation. Um, I think Access to training and information and appropriate training and information One of the issues that I have at the moment is that scottland is a farm advisory service um, when I did my degree in agriculture Marlenia, uh It was owned by the government. It was daffs lots of my former colleagues my former study mates I went to work for daffs when we graduated in the early 80s Now it's commercial and um It's very large farm focused and again, they make noises about helping small farms, but actually they don't and very often They run lots of events, but when you go It's difficult to see the relevance to your small farm. I went to one about liver fluke and cattle Um, and these were in the room and they asked how many cattle you had in that sample three Which was about a tenth of the normal the normal size of the the heads and everybody just looked But I think cooperation in accessing land We now have an organization called scott's farm land trust Which is trying to mirror a french organization and and Buying land farmland putting it into a trust and then renting it to People who want farm in an agro ecological ecological way They're not getting off the ground very quick bless them. Um, and sadly the scott's land fund Only lends money to geographic communities to buy land It doesn't lend money to it doesn't give money. It's not alone. It doesn't give money to communities of interest So I couldn't say to you people here The any of you want to come and have a small farm in scotland Does anybody want to come out of a small farm in scotland? Um, we could get together and we could go to the community land fund and say well We'd like to buy 300 acres and divide it up into You know 15 small holdings they can't get us that long they can only give it to geographic Communities and I think that's that's a weakness in the system. Of course the government could do it because we have a piece of legislation still in the statute books from uh I think it's from 1911 1919 But it was after the war and it allowed the government to buy up land and divide it up at the small holdings Now it was for returning soldiers But you know we can pretend Um, and we are sort of saying to the government now, you know, maybe it's time to resurrect this and maybe Let's try it. You try buying someone and unfortunately all the holdings that were bought then have now been sold Uh are in private ownership and very often no longer used for food production um So yes, the issues are What's already been said issues of land loss Uh food we are in angus. We have some of the the best agricultural land in scotland Um while scotland is blessed with a lot of land a lot of it is rock um And we don't have that much what you would call us as prime agricultural land Um angus is part of that prime agricultural land and the houses that are Striping up must be getting extra nitrogen in the soil because they're grown at a hell of a date um, so we're concerned about land loss to to um To housing and we understand that people have to have homes but The easy option seems to be to build on green fields rather than tackle some of the other issues around housing um access to land affordable land uh, the amount of houses going up pushes up the price so Land and Angus sells for about 15,000 pound a acre Which if you go to and look at how much you would have to pay if you pay the loan on that You can't unless you find oil on it Which of course we wouldn't be taking out of the way because that would be a bad thing um You can't there is nothing you can farm on that land that will even pay the interest payments on that So how how do you get started? um And land dereliction and that's a big issue um in the northwest of scotland I was horrified for another way of salsa to see the number of derelict crops It was just utterly astounding that how much land is not worked Despite there being legislation in place to prevent it, but there's just not the enforcement the ability to enforce So, I'm not sure you know Um This issue about um farmers not collaborating, what do you think is the main reason for that? I think I think people very often um Have small farms Because they want to be independent They want to divest themselves of the control that the supermarkets have over our life. So Speaking personally, I quite like to be able to go to the supermarket and take like two minutes to be limited because most of the stuff is produced at home Um, but alongside that independence comes The kind of inability to compromise with with other people. There's also issues of things like geography Just practical issues like that Um, but big farmers do it Big farmers share machinery They buy cooperatively, but small farmers yet So it would be interesting actually to You know to speak to some of the people in norway where they are very good at cooperating Um, and I think I feel a study visit coming Further research is needed Well, it's uh, I see it. Thank you very much The the people into that about an opportunity for farming without land ownership For the next generation of young farmers is one of the other things that joins africa and europe where There's a fantastic opportunity for young people to aggregate land without owning it and there's also common Constraints to it in africa. It's our certainty of tenure And here we have a lot of aging farmers or people who bought a house and don't know what to do with the land don't want to Have strangers bumping around the land But they're all this under use of land and the opportunities for young farmers to to aggregate and get a livelihood without ownership seems to be really under Undervalued in policy and and yet are surely a route to To getting much more food Yeah, I mean in scotland, um, there have been some some Moves towards that. Um, I'm trying to land match people who want to farm with People who have land and don't you know, either don't want to or aren't able to farm it through through contract farming or or whatever I think there is I think there is something in us though that wants to own the land We steward, you know, I think that there's that that thing about the land belongs to you even if A temporary belonging and eventually we'll belong to the land But um Yeah, it's it's I mean at the moment. I mean speaking personally we rent We own 12 acres and we rent 10 And we have it on a seasonal way Year by year year by year So is it there's no incentive to improve? No, it's very difficult I mean, it's it's a bit of land that would certainly benefit from some investment, but I'm loath to spend the money well one one because I'm getting quite old And two because I have no security of tenure Um, and if the landlord would give me a five year tenancy I could draw down government funding to help to to improve the land But I can only he says to me I can have it for as long as I want But he won't give me anything and writing so I can't get any money to improve it. So the rushes continue to grow um And I know I mean, this is a big big problem And we've got the Scottish government putting pressure on public bodies to release land for What they call new entrant farming, which is great, but it's a 10 year Tenancy. So what happens at the end of 10 years? Where do you go after the 10 years because you're having to move on so It's a good idea, but I think in 10 years time You know, it's all gonna come home reduced when you've got lots of experienced farmers now and around and not actually able to find anything to do their stuff Great. Thank you very much. You want to have a seat? I had a list of backup questions in case they were like off-world silences, but I don't think there's any like risk of that So I'll just open it up I'll give a chance for people to ask questions if suddenly like people are not inspired. I have a month here. So Um And can you say what you want, please? I don't think there's been any price, the price of farmers getting into the games and whether that's been a pressure on small farms Supermarkets competing in this country in France, I think Germany as well You know, there's pretty there's a price war And that surely rebounds down on farmers I've maybe these small farms Selling to these big supermarket chains So maybe they're not suffering so much. Maybe they're selling to more niche local markets. I mean, can you just Talk about that or is that not an issue this price at the farm gate issue? Who would like to take that? Yeah I think definitely it is an issue because what we saw The many farms they sell to other channels. So if they sell to other channels, they have other prices But for instance the small farms in southern europe who sell to the more mainstream They sell to these cooperatives and then the cooperatives sell to the big to big buyers And they're the prices really low But they don't have the capacity to innovate somehow So the the same olive oil is sold with a lot of added value from an italian Bio-farm or sells to a specific buyer in sweden And they they receive like 20 euros per liter while a Portuguese or Spanish farmer receives two or three euros per liter So that means that they go on that they don't risk anything because it's like, you know, it's it's they're they are logged in in a certain type of of Of your pathway and they cannot really go out of it. So it's less attractive for younger farmers this type of Of chain And I think it would be really good if it could be that if we could add more value to this product We suspect the specific part of it anyway would make it possible for most more farms to Go on a new farmers no small farms to come So this is why I mean there are cooperatives, but they are not good enough in negotiating for instance The big better prices. They're individual farmers do better So it will be really important to to to have these but not all not all small farmers are sensitive to it because many sell With through other chains or short supply chains directly to the consumer And before I get to Ricky, I used to say that I was posing to you a question earlier whether Maybe food needs to be more expensive But then from the point of view of the consumer as Bill was saying maybe the little and the aldi are like the Solutions Yeah, it's a it's a huge topic that I mean the reality in the uk farmers get 8 percent of the gross value added of the market So 8 percent or 8 p of every pound spent on food goes to the farmer And and that has big implications for what a farmer can do small or medium or large And I think that's been I've been working on that for a long time to get better supply chain regulation What's exciting is that Europe has just passed the unfair trade practice is directive as a direct result of Of campaigning and lobbying by farmer unions But also by oxfam fair trade foundation and tradecraft Really really effective lobby all of them saying this isn't working It's it's undermining farmers ability to to treat their animals properly to treat the land properly to treat though To pay their workers a decent wage So and so forth and and they've got this new directive which it's not absolutely directed at prices because That would be seen as anti competitive and you know, it's too difficult to do that I think there is a case possibly for setting market prices But there's there's a lot of problems with that in you know Economists would have talked to you for about three hours about why that's not a good idea But the unfair trading factor directors will curb the practices which undermine farmers ability to do what they want to do When they need to do it and we it was slightly built on something that was formed here called the groceries coded eudicator Which administers a code Of practice for the big 12 retailers. I'm going to go very short now But um, there's been a whole you know process of that groceries coded eudicator in the uk Starting to stop unfair practices by the 12 big retailers originally 10 is now 12 thinking now includes Accordo and bmj, but all the other supermarkets. But what we've been calling for is a Fair dealing regulation for the rest of the supply chain. So they play fair as well So farmers get a better deal better contracts are not unfairly treated, you know asked to Deliver at midnight, you know all sorts of ways in which they it's known that the the supply chain can be unfair on Farmers and particularly small farmers Although I agree some small farmers are selling out with the big retailers and the big manufacturers But the new fight what was thrilling to find in the agriculture bill last year Was they agreed with us and they put a fair dealing Clause in the bill and that's actually been improved in the in the more recent bill that came out last week So I could talk more about that if anybody wants to know but it's it's it's interesting because it now Doesn't include reference to first buyer and you were talking about the first purchase of being being everything But it that squeeze can come at any point in the supply chain for the farm and the squeeze might be You know way down there and and so if the bill had been purely on first purchases it would have Missed problems down the chain So we were we lobbied hard over the whole of last year to get that first purchase to Changed to business purchaser and it's called business purchase now to separate it from the farming community So it's quite an exciting time to see what we have It's not quite an answer to your question because I think you've got a really good point Why aren't we valuing the primary produce better and that's that's a big huge Question and and whether we should be making food more expensive making food that isn't costly in terms of the environment more expensive Or less expensive, you know, there's big issues there and then you come across the whole political Climate of trying to of food banks and problems people eating Which is actually nothing to do with the price of food is to do with people's incomes and wages and welfare Vision so it's it's a very political issue around the price of food and should it be cheaper or more expensive But we have some chinks of light. I like to think Great I I joined the session I was thinking sustainability would be every other word that you would you know, pronouncing and and to me the The beauty of small farming is the ability for those small places to have more diversity in what they crop You have more respect for the soil to treat agriculture not like an industry, but like practice To get much more revenue out of an of a nectar than if you do a Mass production and I haven't heard you comment and express yourselves on that. They'll be super interested to What's the what's the take on sustainability agenda? Well, well that that was one of the challenges of salsa from the beginning But we took it a bit broadly So we what we wanted to because there were many questions in the salsa project from the beginning So we opted to look at how how do small farms are placed in the food system And whether the way they place themselves would what is what is threatening them? So assuming that they were in somehow what we you know, if they had more more diverse Ways of selling their products. There will be more resilient for instance So there was we didn't really explore all the dimension of sustainability But one of the things we for instance we Assessed is this question of that they are all providing food to the household and to the endeavor So it's food, which is never going out being or it's very little being needs very little in terms of conservation It's not being transported. So it's normally food, which will be which will have a less ecological footprint So in this way, they they they are adapting more to you know, the requirements we have now regarding How should be the footprint of food? So we don't have it directly We don't have answers very direct answers But we have some contributions to this debate and to this understanding And it's true that it was there in the definition of the salsa question But we had too many questions. So we opted to lose some of them and not all of them So it's more for the future The reason I think is Interesting to the debate is because lots of the debate is around the value The price of the land the distribution The the revenue for the for the farmers and I think The root of sustainability is a very interesting route Of course to create the value and therefore to to improve the The whole debate That's true Thank you Just quickly, I mean I I referred to the briefing that we produced in in support of our Statement on why we need to keep small farms and a lot of that it does cover the issues around Sustainability and and biodiversity climate and and where the benefits can be identified from a Small farm or a mix of farm structures. The reality is when when somebody did a very large study a few years ago There they're Um Results showed that you can have very bad small farms and you can have very bad big farms You can have very good small farms. There isn't really a correlation in size in in the uk I don't know if they're covering scotland actually. I think it might have just been indented, but Yeah, so you get big big and that kind of thing. So it's not an all-tastic correlation but I we see a very Big benefit in having small farm structure and medium farm structure size farm structure Because they will deliver potentially lots of sustainability a lot of not sustainability agenda But they will need to be supported in delivering that in in different ways training advice For me, let me just quickly follow up with you How much So I imagine that there is some sometimes inherent in small folder farming that involves an event of Environmental stewardship as it were And as you say, how much of that is deliberate in your case versus just that is the way you operate And you're not like deliberately thinking about like the greater good. Just that is the way i'm on my farm um It's for us it well It is deliberate Some of us just leasing us And we have we've passed the farm but who was talking about tidy farms? That's a passive environment Well, we have bits we haven't even got to yet. We've been there 10 years and there's bits we've You know, we walk past it regularly and think we must get to that at some point. Um, but it's full of bees and insects So we've stopped worrying about it now hedgehogs. We have lots of hedgehogs Oh, you'll get lots of money for that. I hope so So yes, I think For us it has been to some extent deliberate um But on the other some of it's been forced enough simply because of constraints of time and Effort and so on and I think I think you're absolutely spot on there are good big farmers and there are Not so good. It's not about size um, I think what is kind of interesting though is is maybe where the people come from um, my vet who Is marvelous um But not free Like smallholders because we tend not to have a background in farming So many smallholders. It's it's their first moving into small scale farming So we ask for advice and we take it Because we haven't got granddad Standing at our shoulder saying We never did it like that in our day No So we're more We're open to ideas if we can get access to them. But as I said earlier sometimes We have a phrase in scotland. Can I swear a wee bit? Look at the same videos We have a phrase in scotland that says when you're up to your arse and alligators It's difficult to think about draining the swamp And that actually applies. You're sometimes you're so busy keeping the plate spinning that You know, you're not Maybe at the forefront. I like the thing about retro innovation My horse pulls things So that's that's a retro innovation But maybe can I say something more about it because one dimension we didn't we don't call it so much Sustainability assessment, but if we think about the the regions what we saw these regions we analyze that small farms are really Distributing foods in informal ways to different types of other people which very often are the poorest in the region So if the poor so from a social point of view from social sustainability Those people in the retraining and in eastern europe, especially Those people have so low incomes that they would have really a very very poor diet if they were in urban areas While they are they have access to this diversified food because each small farms feeds A number of other people around neighbors and friends and family and you know So there is that I mentioned there, which I think needs to be more highlighted. It's which Which is not often shown. It's not just that it is informal, but it is informal also in this type of population Which otherwise will be much Well, not well of much less So it's from a social point of view, I think there's a contribution there Which is clear in salsa shown in salsa Okay, before I get to say someone who has got the chance to Yes, please So I was quite interested in um the farmers identifying climate as something that they are quite concerned about and if you talked a lot about You know multiple reasons why small farms, you know, social cohesion And I was wondering what was the conversation that farmers were having because a lot of the farmers or at least capital farmers are Being quite well-offied and under under attack. So on one hand they need to adapt, but they also be well-offied So what's the conversation that they're having and what kinds of technologies are they also sort of looking for To help them adapt because again, there's all kinds of So-called solutions or full solutions that are being proposed, especially if the agriculture policy is linked with much more with environmental opinions What's the this Well in salsa it was a surprise for us that because we asked in the survey We had two main sources of information relating to small farms Which was the surveys and then the workshops where we were you know at the regional Discussing about the food system, but this came mainly from the surveys Well, we asked them what you think it's the highest risk you are facing and we saw it would be more you know lack of labor or or difficulties in having Access to financing but climate change came as a very strong So the dominant was climate change and mainly it's you know If there will be less in southern europe if there will be less water or the rain You are very much depending on rain for what availability What will happen if we have less rain and then the question that we don't have the resources to apply new technologies for instance for having other types of of you know Drop drop irrigation or these kind of things it's it's expensive or maybe there are new ways and we don't know Or replacing replacement of a certain variety for another variety. There there is development We know it's you know, there's knowledge, but we don't have access to it because we don't have extension services So I think it's this type of conversation. We know there's a threat Coming it will change and it will demand adaptation from us, which we are not sure We will be able to do because we don't have the resources. I think it was mainly mainly this So they are not placing themselves in a situation where they have They have an impact on the environment. It's more what we are doing We are fragile in what we are doing. So if if this changes So it's not so much about regulation changing about it's about the conditions if the conditions change We will probably not be able to adapt because we don't have the means for it We've already said that You know, the size is not an indication of how good a farmer you are and and I think The same at the moment cattle farmers are getting a really really hard time um But in the same way cattle farmers are being lumped together as a homogenous mass, which is plainly not the case The media likes this. It's a it's a good story to run just now. It's the right month for it. Um, so There's an awful lot of misinformation and there are there are people that the media is representing Cattle as as the whipping boy for this And um People are getting half a story That they're getting aggregated figures across the globe now I absolutely don't think that we should be keeping cattle and feedlots I do not think we should be feeding them grain if we can grow grain. Let's feed it to people Let's feed cattle grass. It's what they're physiologically designed to eat. I don't want to eat grass So Yes, things need to change, but it's wrong for for anything to be portrayed as a One mass where actually, um Our cattle for existence for instance only get grass. That's that's what they eat the dried grass in the winter and the fresh grass in the summer um And that that comes through in the quality of the of the product um So it is misinformation just to say very quickly one of the things that we've started doing is we run farm tours on our farm So we let people come along and tour the farm and see the pigs and the sheep and the cows And we don't hide anything from these kids. We tell the kids see these pigs. Aren't they lovely? We're gonna eat them And if you eat bacon and sauce And they're delicious and you know kids don't care Kids are like we love bacon. We love sausages and their parents are going don't tell them because they'll get really upset kids are really bloody And they really don't care Um, but we have to get to the we have to get to the kids. We have to explain to them how farming Works if you want to be vegan or you want to be vegetarian. That's fine, but understand The consequences and understand what you're doing. It's not a sound bite. You don't save the planet by the symbol on the processed food from the supermarket Can I make a comment? I was um reading the land workers magazine, which is the magazine for the unite the union Which is the main work union that represents farm workers in the UK And they were surprised to find that they've surveyed their their workers recently and climate was the number one issue for them It was amazing and they were seeing real threats to their livelihoods Um to what they were trying to do in their work to their progression through Their work and and you know the impact on life livestock, which which actually employs an awful lot of people in in the UK So I thought it was quite Interesting which echoed what you you were surprised. I was surprised unite was surprised by that reaction as being a really big threat Which I think is very good because climate is the existential threat But I think your right to suggest that there might be some really false solutions out there And I think pricing carbon and price, you know, I've got to give Give evidence next week something which is talking about a carbon tax in food and farming Um, and there's all sorts of measurements being tried to do on Building carbon and soil and I can see the big guys being able to really pay for that to look right And small farmers not being able to afford that. I mean particularly globally But there's all sorts of pitfalls Whereas I you know, I would like to see us being able to promote agroecological farming diverse farming Which is mixed using breeds, you know, that are fit for the for the Climate and things like that. But measuring the outcomes of those things is not Not that easy in the climate sector where the climate sector is really focused on Data and kilowatts and you know, you've got to be able to measure it and get outcomes and measure You know be really both robust measurement and then you can get rewards It's it's a very I think there's a really potential big pitfall there, but at the same time we've got to deal with climate so I'll take maybe I'll take two But let me take two very Last ones and I'll just ask you and you to ask then I'll give you a chance to answer I'll cut in five minutes and then we can continue the conversation upstairs. We have lots of questions. So please Sorry, my name is flaki and I've got two questions for you Um What can I become farmers level of scottish farmers? Number two is the what is your contribution to poverty regarding this or slimo development Thank you Please Great Feel free to address either or any other questions I can answer on the metrics one. I know it's the same with food trust are doing some good work on Developing a system metrics, which is really farmer friendly And but it's linked into what their farmers be able to then Say they're doing in terms of Public goods and then get rewarded for those public goods It's been a complicated process though, but it's doing it with farmers and farm communities But it's it's absolutely how it should be done. You know with with farmers and growers to identify where I think That's sort of measure the outcomes of what you're doing Difficult in a really good agro agro ecological system because it's a conflict I think that that's actually quite interesting and not actually something I had thought about until about a minute ago was it now I'm worried that when New policies come in when new Support payments come in that there's a danger that small farmers will miss out because although we're doing the right thing We don't have the means to prove it And if it becomes I mean there are industries being built on the back of this And it worries me now that we're going to miss out because we we we don't have the The means to prove what we're doing, you know, I can count the hedgehogs, but Isn't that actually going to get me out? It's something that's going to keep me Keep me sustainable So now I'm worried Thank you There is a sort of leave you a last word, but on the Africa Question, can I ask my colleague Barbara to put you on the spotlight? But you have been much more involved She's also part of this as a project and has been much more involved in linking this dialogue with the african partners You went to our workshop we heard in iROM Precisely on this question of what can africa learn from from the u and indeed what can they learn from africa Would you comment? How would you answer that question? I can't answer the specific question about what they can learn from scottish farmers because I wasn't involved in the scottish Reference reasons or I don't know all the details about that. It's interesting because with the african reference regions We actually asked the question the other way around as well So we actually said well, are there things considering that in africa most farms are small farmers in europe only a very small proportion Are there things that european farmers can learn from african farmers? In terms of you know, like all the Not all but the large chunk of the agriculture advisory services All the kind of services for farmers in africa are by and large here towards small farmers They don't necessarily work very well But I mean this is the sort of default farmer as a relatively small farmer and Whereas in europe a lot of the small farms as you said fall actually underneath the radar because as they just not Not recognized as as being farmers as well And there were some interesting things like for example market information systems through sms and so on You know like how to get information digital information to farmers Which has been tried in africa many many places and in europe actually it's not so The other way around in terms of i mean as i said i can't say specifically what what farmers in scotland might might be able to to offer to farmers in africa, but One of the questions we asked ourselves amongst the african reference regions was like if If we can see how things have developed in europe from you know 100 years ago Well a bit more than 100 years ago now Of the structure where there were lots of small and medium sized farms and now we've gradually had fewer and fewer farms and had That structural transformation. Is this something that is likely to happen in africa as well? And of course you can't generalize across the continent, but There are there is a narrative that says small farms are not efficient small farms are not able to produce So do we need a consolidation of farms should some farms? I mean the british government for example had this system dfID where they talked about the So-called moving out moving out stepping up stepping up stepping out hanging in hanging in Yeah And these people should just go and work in the isiocan True factory in the capital and you know vacate that land and all this or other farmers can consolidate their farm And that is obviously highly controversial Especially considering that in europe a lot of small farms are part-time farms Why shouldn't african farms be part-time farms as well? So if you find that your farm is so so small that you can't actually make a good living of it And you've got three children Maybe one of them is getting a job in town and being able to support And do it as a family through through that way. So this Part-time farming model seems to be working reasonably well in big parts of europe There's an african Portrait as a kind of negative coping strategy and something that shouldn't happen at any cost of farmers should just move So these debates were quite interesting. So just having that You know Can I just pick up on the part-time farm thing? I think part-time farm is a great thing It moves skills From rural areas from urban areas to rural areas. It very often moves capital from urban areas to rural areas But what's not to like about it? You know my husband's a wedged galloper He would normally be urban based but because he can work from from anywhere like our shed We can we can move these skills somewhere else. So I think I think part-time farming is great Would that be effective to give you a bad broadband? The infrastructure has to be in place. Yeah, absolutely. It's not always. Yeah. I have to say canoustine doesn't have the best broadband And the fibre stops at the end of our road Can I say something about the the assumptions about small being in unproductive just quickly because um Okay, well, I'll just I'll just guide you to the land workers alliance Which is an alliance of people who want land and want to farm in the UK. It's a brilliant set of people They actually did a survey of of the farms that they're working with And they're small-scale farms and she she identified really high productivity really high levels of production and capacity to produce I just I just want to say because these are small farms and they're really productive And it's a report which you can access on the land works website really interesting to look at So there's assumptions that you can't be productive once more to go on So we didn't ask the question about sdgs, but that's it's a big one, isn't it? Last 30 seconds 30 seconds Okay, I would say it's something else we can learn with each other or at least from southern europe We can learn with northern europe and I think for africans it goes that it's this Question of adding value to your product because it's diversified because it's unique because it's different from your neighbor's product I think this is something we are not good at doing in southern europe So it talents much better than the others that we sell as you know It's just a product and it's not just the product as the other So this you know having adding a brand to your product as a small farmer so that it's more valued by the consumer I think this is something we should think about as one of the strategies It was much much referred in southern europe that we need to have consumers with us But we also need to brand it more as something which is specific and you will have as a consumer a much broader Range of choices and and experiences if you take this type of products instead of mass production About the metrics Ah, okay We didn't find anything but there's a lot of studies Show you I have to close unfortunately, but we can talk continue your conversation in public. Thank you very much Thank you for Stay some just for communications team at iid who have put everything together everything you see and juliette All the twitter everything they do it they invited you so thank you to them. Thank you to the pilot I'll see you upstairs