 It is equally incumbent upon women to consider the experience, the unique experiences of black men because you know what we don't talk about when we talk about black history is the fact that black men experience damn near everything black women experience in addition to lynchings. Go look at the lynching records. They weren't lynching women. Because I just want to build with you black girl tell me how you really feel I want to keep it real with you I want to live better eat better I want to love better sleep better yeah I want to feel so aligned but I do want flowers you know like I do want those compliments I do want a little bit not much now but I do want a little bit of softness from him when he's in my space when we're in each other's space so it's like I mean and that's just what it is like I don't think I think that two things can be the same thing at the same time like yes I the masculine characteristics is something that I love and I would say it's more important but I also enjoy having conversations with my man I enjoy the flowers I enjoy the dates I enjoy that level of vulnerability with him okay let me ask you this yes based on the things most women want are men today better or worse than their fathers and grandfathers okay I understand the second question what do you mean by based on the things that women want based on the things that women want so like if I ask you whether your top five things you're looking for in a man based on those types of things are men today better than their grandfathers um I can only answer this from generally generally speaking what would you say I think that generally the the traits of our grandfathers isn't something that women innately whether it's consciously or subconsciously want out of a man I think that that masculinity I think that that pragmatism that realism that sometimes can come off as coldness all those things let's let's let's get simple so men today make more than their grandfathers okay men today on average are more educated than their grandfathers okay men today are more emotionally intelligent emotionally authentic whatever you want to say than their grandfathers can we agree on those things you can also make the argument men today are more handsome than their grandfathers whatever yeah oh on the flip side are women today based on the things men value are women today better than their grandmothers no and that's the problem I don't think so because but I don't I think it's a scale and I think I understand that but generally because the point I'm making is in as much as men today are objectively better than men of yesteryear and women today are objectively worse than women of yesteryear only one side seems to have more demands let me take it back go ahead let me take it back and when I say that it's a scale there's characteristics I think in our grandmothers and great-grandmothers that we might not want to might not have wanted to inherit and we talk about modern feminism in the downfalls of it but when it comes to like spiritual growth when it comes to some goals and I guess objectives and just the the the the what is the word that I'm trying to use the other what's the word that I'm trying to use I can't even think about it but just things that women have accomplished the accomplishments I don't know if our great-grandmothers and our grandmothers would have been able to reach those see that's that's why I asked the question the way that I did I said based on the things men value based on things that men value you think that men you think that most men in our generation would rather have the personality and the let's not take anything away you think they what you think men in our generation would want to date their great our grandmothers I say I won't say they're I say our I think there I think there would be more enthusiastic about joining a long-term union with them than modern women yes absolutely and again that goes back to my statement about value right if you value men you would consider what it is that men want but because most women do not value men they think that what they should be evaluated based on the same curriculum that they evaluate men on so the reality is and I said this to me as well you're better men than your grandmothers but you're not better women and we're better men and women low-key than our grandfathers because women have demanded for us to become more in touch with our feminine side and all that shit women back in day one say no in touch with feminine I want him to be a hard-working man great father well I did a if you scroll down far enough on the YouTube back when I was in college I did a man on the street thing at my college called what is a man what is a woman and I interviewed people who worked at the school who were students in the whole nine I remember there was this really old white lady that I interviewed I think she worked in the library she looked like a the lady from tweever but she basically the things that stood out to me he said I want to be work hard a man is hard-working and a man is well thought of in his community okay T1 talking about why he's my best friend and he's my travel buddy and we watch so and that's what I'm trying to get at so my my point is for women to have neglected the aspects of womanhood that men wanted to preserve from yesteryear to also simultaneously not even credit men for the improvements that they've made based on your asks from yesteryear but simply just continue to add to a list is goddamn immoral okay let me throw something in there really quickly question slash something for us to ponder on do we think that the progression would you mention making more money more educating you mentioned something else do you think that that progression would have happened without female influence and part b to that the state that our black women are in now has it been sacrificial you said hasn't or has it because no whether you're a man or a woman the progress within yourself when you're in community or in a relationship a lot of it might be fueled by your partner so behind every great man as a great woman right so if men are as far along as they are today did women not have a lot to do with that and obviously we can go into the historical context of what happened to the black community but I don't know if we're getting as much credit or am I misconstruing things tell me my my my challenges so when I was going off of the list one of the questions that I would ask is how did black men help white supremacy to dismantle the black community that answer the answers just came smoothly it wasn't a tough question for most people to answer and I asked men and women and then I would ask people how did black women help white supremacy dismantle the black community that was a bit more challenging because and we have to be honest about this there's an assumption of female benevolence the little dove in our society there's an assumption of and and that's part of the reason but that internal femininity which is something that men say that they want but but sure but what I'm saying is part of the reason why there is an equity in this conversation is because whenever a man achieves something worth a damn we have to make space to consider whether his mom or his the good woman behind him his wife or beside him influence him to achieve that but whenever a woman achieves something worth a damn nobody give a shit about her dad her uncle's nice she did it by herself because she's a strong independent black so we're not if we're gonna make assumptions because we don't know right yeah if we're gonna make assumptions we have to make assumptions on both sides because if we only make it on one side it assumes that female superiority it assumes that female benevolence it assumes that black men are not shit and you know people say oh black a black woman in the backbone of the of the black community black men don't have a backbone black men don't want good things independent of women black men having achieved great things independent of women so I'm supposed to assume that oh Marcus Garvey's greatness was was really his mother or his his his wife I'm supposed to achieve assume Lewis Farrakhan's greatness is the women who were behind him even if I assume that it doesn't work the other way around so like we have to tell the truth do we think men are valuable yes or no and if we do think men are valuable I'll I'll I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and consider the fact that yeah there's a great man I mean a great woman behind a great man behind a great woman I'm sorry behind this great man but you must also give me that same benefit of the doubt mm-hmm I don't I don't disagree with you I think where the the the question for me comes in is it takes two to tango like we sometimes speak in modern times I think more so than maybe like the 70s and 80s and you even heard it in the music back then of the camaraderie in the community of we all accomplish these things together but in in modern times we speak sometimes a level of defensiveness and I'm saying on both sides and we forget that yes woman you've accomplished all these things like you said but there's a counterpart that was also involved in this and yes men you accomplish these things but there's also a counterpart and I think what triggered that question is you mentioned you know are men better more progressed than their grandfathers and then equating that are women better more progress than their grandmothers and you did say that you feel as though they are they're worse and I think that it's dangerous to to just completely have just the individual or or not intermix how we got there how both parties helped each other get to that point because I don't I think energetically it doesn't even make sense and there's a yin and yang like we talk about all the time so it's like in the sacrificial comment I don't know why I'm harping on this and if it's if you're like girl that doesn't even make sense to be quiet let me know but there's something in in my brain that's like what have women have women sacrifice those positive traits within them and if we're speaking on energy did maybe men get that those I guess positive traits for the from the detriment of black women here's the problem here's the problem and the reason I brought that up are you better than your grandmothers and are we better than our grandfathers is because if there was a let's say this hypothetical event where every black man in the world was to walk through and be evaluated whether you're a man a good man whatever the case may be I believe black women will insist on being in that room like we need to our voices need to be heard to right we need to have a say in evaluating what is a man and what is a good man however it seems to be the case that if the opposite was true there was a room evaluating women stay out of black women Dennis so that tells me that's not the same really quickly I'm gonna explain what I mean okay go ahead that tells me that black women have been socialized to trivialize black men's value I don't think fatherlessness helps that I don't think mass incarceration the war on drugs helps that I don't think black male mental health helps that I think it just adds to it I think it's confirmation bias we have to be honest about the fact that most black women's operating understanding of black men is not a good one yeah and you view the world and you view black men through those lenses first so the thing is I don't have to value what you value black man but you have to value what I value so I don't give a shit if you think I'm a good woman you should give a shit that I think I'm a good woman so similarly that's why there's there's like a reflex to push back against are you better than your grandmothers from the perspective of black men because there wasn't any pushback when we were talking about our black men better than their grandfathers from the perspective of black men we have to make a list what is it that black women want what is it that black men want based on the things that black women want are men of yesteryear or men of today more closely uh similar to that list it's clear what the answer is because we have metrics like education we have metrics like therapy in room things are different things are absolutely and things being different from a male perspective created worse women and nobody cares that we think that because I'm supposed to value you for the same reasons I would value my homeboy and my business partner now that's cool if what I think doesn't matter but if just like what you think matters what I think must matter as well and you must care that I think that women today are not as good as they were back in the day and we need to have an honest conversation that's why it sure says black female delegation the black female delegation needs to come together and say wait why is it that men are running overseas to find good women but men are not running into America to find good women but let's be honest so are we going to continue to be defensive and rattle off all the complications and and list of reasons why we're not like our grandmothers or are we going to compete for something we see valuing because we compete for for jobs yeah because we see value in jobs we compete for admission in the universities because we see value in that but when it comes to our men and you mentioned this during our first interview there's something how'd you put it there's something in us it's like fuck those guys okay what did I say it comes to catering to a man oh yeah what are my women are like women are like yeah yeah and that that's for me that's at the core of this conversation there is a value disparity there is I really did not want to have the white supremacy conversation I really didn't but I don't think that we can even and you know this better than anybody that we can't have this convo without shining a light on the number psychologically that white supremacy has done to us in the way that in media and music and in all these different avenues that the the that structure I'm going to spear away from saying white people but the structure has painted black men black boys you know and that's why going back to the last interview I had I talked so much about like the Cardi B's and like this and that and I know I was a little harsh in those videos but it's going to be real real hard to get through the Gen Z women because they're the period and eyelashes and all this and that like they're those they don't they you think millennials might not see the value in men Gen Z 100 doesn't see the value in men and that is the importance of us learning ourselves spiritually and getting back to community for real and until that happens I don't really see this conversation changing I don't see the hemisphere or the the black feminist sector mellowing out a bit mellowing out at all and it will just continue to spiral in my opinion and I don't want to be pessimistic but that's kind of what it's looking like and I do I do agree with you that in innately we we have a complete disregard for masculinity we have a complete disregard for black masculinity because I think that the the role that black men play in their communities is different than the role that white men might play in theirs or or other you know communities of people and yeah I I think it's a lot deeper than what a lot of us are willing to go and until we are willing to really get to the nitty gritty of what needs to be done we're going to continue to have these combos in my opinion I agree and disagree I do think obviously that's my whole shtick I do think it is nuanced and complex and multi-layered and you should yeah because it is yeah right there's historical context and that's part of the reason why I've taken it upon myself to learn about some of that historical context for instance Marcus Garvey he built a toy factory specifically manufacturing black baby dolls because he understood that women's self image dictated the generations that came after them and I say all the time a man a bad man could ruin a family a bad woman can ruin a generation so with that being said if men do their due diligence and understand the complexities that black women face colorism texturism featureism you know even intersectionality right being black and female and dealing with microaggressions and and you know assault and different things like that I think it is equally incumbent upon women to consider the experience the unique experiences of black men because you know what we don't talk about when we talk about black history is the fact that black men experience damn everything black women experience in addition to lynchings go go go look at the lynching records they weren't lynching women they weren't making examples out of women they were making examples out of men and that's deliberate absolutely the Tuskegee airmen were men yeah having to go risk your life and fight for a country and then come back and be hung that's not something women experienced and I agree and I this this this conversation is important where I where I would see a conversation like this going in this space is yeah black men went through this but we went through this and this and this but that's my point my point and that's dangerous my point is this women are asking men for grace women are asking for men for understanding for consideration while simultaneously not being willing to offer that to men so when it's time to critique men for all the I gave you the analogy for all the reasons why we're not good enough everybody needs to be in that room and nobody argues about that it is okay for men to be lambasted torn apart picked apart told where they need to improve and I don't even necessarily think it's a bad thing but when it comes to how women can improve for us it's more complicated than that we need to we need to we need to before we can so we're saying keep that same energy I'm supposed to put the complexities and all the shit to the side when it's time to tell me how I need to be better right but when it's time to tell you how you need to be better nah it's not time yet and a lot of a lot of men are saying oh fuck that a lot of men are saying no listen if you're going to expect me to be receptive to critique because the world expects me to be receptive to critique specifically black men we've been picked apart since we got to this country you as well should see enough value in me to be receptive to my critique to be receptive to how all the ways you can be better for me and that same energy is not there because the energy from our women tends to be who are you to be able to critique me and this is the first time black men are saying I'm Marcus Garvey I'm Martin Luther King I'm Elijah Muhammad I'm Frederick Douglass I'm Booker T Washington that's who I am but again one of the clever things I think of white supremacists it tends to pedestalize the madam cj walkers and the and the Harriet Tubman's and things like that to make it seem like the people with the audacity in the black community were our women and that's not true that's yeah and it's it's created this understanding within us that like our women are better women and better men and then you combine that with single motherhood mass incarceration when men were being shipped off to prison at high rates women were being shipped off to college to be indoctrinated with feminism so what do you think that creates 20 30 40 years in the future right women who think they're better than men and the men are simpletons who deserve no extra consideration but when it's time for us to be critiqued we need to think of this this this this this this there is nothing that women have experienced in this country that men have not also experienced from a slavery Jim Crow standpoint whether we're talking about sexual assault men experience that as well yeah whether we're talking about our kids and our families being ripped apart men experience that as well but we also need to talk about the fact that men in general are not perceived to have feelings so the idea is oh it affected the women more than it affected the men are men not people a black man not people how do you think that felt to him knowing that his biological job is protect and provide and for 400 years we weren't able to do that do we take any time to consider the fact that black men couldn't exist in this country at all we couldn't even live up to our biological spiritual tenants do no fault of our own do do do women take any time to pay homage to that and understand it god damn manhood black manhood in this country could only exist starting in like the Frederick that that's why Marcus Garvey was such an anomaly that's why Frederick Douglas Book of T. Washington W. E. B. That's why they were such anomalies because they emphasize their manhood in a country they try to castrate them literally yeah so that's all that is all I think maybe sometimes it doesn't do it eloquently but all the man is trying to say is we're people too and we suffered too and in as much as I should consider your suffering and I should study you do study y'all I should study your suffering so I can know how to speak to it speak through it do that for me too and maybe you'll come to realization that that means sometimes you need to shut up because I'm thinking about how the snipers on the proverbial snipers on the roof but you can only really truly do that if you see value in me most women don't see value in men and most women stop and that that's that's been part of the conversation I really want to push it's like you stop the conversation of at you know I have daddy issues because my dad was dot dot dot dot dot dot the reality is is a lot of women and men have mommy issues because and I think rightfully so because doesn't she deserve a little bit of critique for even picking that shitty dude in the first place but no again women are benevolent so we must give her the benefit of the doubt and we must list off and rattle off all the reasons why she was just a helpless victim yeah but dad oh now we're not going to consider his PTSD we're not going to consider his alcoholism we're not going to consider some of the domestic violence he might have even suffered at the hands of your mom your benevolent mom oh he just left me point blank case closed there's no extra layers we're not going to consider context no dad's just shitty yeah so all I'm saying is if we're going to have this conversation equity and fairness and value needs to enter the chat amen amen I don't like preaching man no you gotta preach sometimes