 Okay, welcome everybody. My name is Maria Mendeluccia. I'm the CEO of the Women's Business Coalition. I'm very pleased to be with you today to talk about the path to the carbonizing aviation. It's going to be a challenging topic and one that I hope to learn with you, with the experts on the panel. The objectives of the sessions are two. First to highlight the key climate challenges facing the industry and second to understand why scaling sustainable aviation fuels have been difficult, but how can we solve those barriers and scale the solution that exists today? So we're not going to talk about planting trees. We're going to talk about putting sustainable aviation fuels on Swiss airplanes today, hopefully. So I'll give you some facts about the industry, which you probably know, but 1 gigaton in 2019 or about close to 3% of global CO2 emissions. It's very interesting. Since 2000, flight activity has grown by 5% per year, but the industry has managed to reduce their emissions and they have only grown their emissions by 2%. So the energy intensity has been reducing their emissions by 2.8%. Why say that? Because I'm part of the sense-based targets initiative and we're asking companies to reduce their emissions by 4%. So 2.8% is really good. But we have grabbed the low-hanging fruit and now we need to go and tackle the hardest and we need alternatives to jet kerosene fuel. And that's why we're going to talk about the SAF. SAF are only 0.1% of the market today and we have an ambitious objective as part of the Mission Possible Partnership to bring this to 10% by 2030. And for that we need demand and we need regulation. And this is what we're going to be talking today. So let's move to the panel. I'm very pleased to introduce you to Dieter Brandt, CEO of Swiss International Airlines. Next, Martha Ho, the CSO of Sancor Energy, followed by Dev Sanyal, CEO of Varo Energy and finally Enrico Giovanni, Minister of Transport and Infrastructure of Italy. So let's start with you Dieter. So it is challenging to be running an airline business these days after Covid and now asking customers to pay a premium with the raising energy cost etc. So how do you see the aviation world post Covid and the potential for customers and the willingness to pay more to have lower carbon flights? First of all, thank you for having me here. I think it's a really good question. We come in the aviation industry. We're coming out of the worst crisis ever in the last two years. We are slowly recovering and we're looking forward to that recovery. One topic which will take a key central role in how we position the industry, but especially also Swiss, is on sustainability. And it's not just from a consumer perspective, it's also from an employee perspective, from all stakeholder perspectives that we have to make the transformation into a greener future for the airline business. We are having multiple initiatives in order to drive that. On the one hand, of course, we have a clear goal to reduce CO2 by 50% by 2030. And there are three main topics, number one, investing in new aircrafts, number two, sustainable aviation fuel and number three, operational efficiency. But the aviation fuel, the synthetic fuels, will play a primary role in driving the reduction of CO2. And now in order to finance that, we all know that the current availability of sustainable aviation fuel is far too little. We need a huge scaling up of production, and we need to make sure that due to or thanks to scaling up of production, the pricing is coming into acceptable levels. So that's the mechanism we are looking for. At the end of the day, of course, everybody will have to take a burden of the cost. All players in the market be it on production sites, on consumer sites and in the aviation industry itself. So consumers are getting more and more aware of the topic of sustainability. And we feel an increasing willingness to pay, but the level is very low. So doubling a very low level will be the first step. And then we will have to take first smaller steps and then bigger steps. But we will include compensation possibility in the booking flow of the airline. So whenever you make a booking, the last step in making a booking will be how much do you compensate? 2080, 8020 or 0100. And this will facilitate people to first to realize I fly, so I want to compensate. And number two, get the opportunity to compensate. Let me, I'll come back to you, but let me move to Dev, because we're talking and we need to scale up the production of sustainable aviation fuel. I understand that you're in the process of doing that, right? Can you tell us more? And what, I think they, yeah, so we hear a lot of demand as part of the first mover coalition for sustainable aviation fuel, but those fields are not available yet. And how can we accelerate the investment on, on, on the plans that we'll deliver towards those commitments? Well, Maria, thank you. And it's a great pleasure to be here with this distinguished panel. Before I answer the question, I think there's a fundamental premise. I think we all need to recognize that the opportunity ahead of us is how do we cut carbon, not how do we cut aviation? Because when you take a step back, 80% of the world have never flown. And the truth is that only a small minority of the world has actually had the privilege that we enjoy in terms of accessing aviation. And as the world gets more prosperous, trade is going to be a very important part of the narrative. So aviation is actually intrinsically linked to prosperity. The question is, how do we make it better, cleaner and more sustainable? And I think from my vantage point, I think there are five things we need to do if you're going to accelerate the momentum. Number one, build the stuff that's actually been announced in MOUs and heads of agreements. So 4 million tons have been announced. Now, it's showtime. How do we actually prosecute on that? The second, I actually believe we have to think about this very holistically globally. The truth of the matter is that where we're going to see the maximum growth in demand is going to be in the non-OECD. And so as we look forward, how do we create a set of conditions for investments in that region, in that part of the world? The cost of capital is 7x in emerging markets. The investments in low carbon generally is going to be around a trillion dollars a year. How do we actually accelerate that momentum is going to be incredibly important? So how do you create access to capital, not just in the OECD but also the non-OECD? The third dimension is feedstock. I actually believe there is a massive opportunity in this industry to be really ahead of the curve in terms of certifying the feedstock. So to actually be completely sustainable all the way through rather than have the sort of stop and start that we've seen in ground transportation and ground fields. The fourth dimension is actually creating a set of regulatory incentives. And this is super important because what I'm not advocating for are subsidies. Subsidies subsidize consumption, bad idea. Incentives accelerate momentum in investments and scale matters. In any commodity having a niche product, it kind of doesn't work because the costs are too high and your data, what you're looking for is the most effective and the most efficient and the most sustainable product. So therefore it is super important that we build that scale to the right incentives. And the final bid is that we can't just stop in the first generation. We've got to go beyond that. So I know hydrogen fields are a bit like a Star Trek kind of idea. It'll happen at some point, but we'll see. Actually, we need to have a moonshot type approach. I mean, when you take a step back with the famous moonshot approach of JF Kennedy, I mean, at that point in every year in today's money, $18 billion invested that resulted in a step change. We've got to create also the incentives, the R&D for the next gen. We are looking at things like part of liquids. We're looking at alcohol to jet, but I think hydrogen is going to be a part of that narrative as well. The time horizon, I can promise you, will be compressed from where we think it is today. The question is, how do we create that velocity moving forward? Thank you. I think the scale matters, as you say, and we need to bring through legislation and through customer demand that signal to the industry to accelerate the investments on this plant. I suppose we will start in OECD and then we will move to non-OECD countries. Once we have that scale that reduces the cost and that it makes it more affordable for those regions. Going to you, Martha, CSO of Sancor, I have two questions for you. How is the industry evolving towards the use of sustainable aviation fuels? What are the main barriers that we have covered some of them, but from your perspective, the main barriers that the industry faces on the scale up? Thank you, and thanks very much for the invitation to be here. Thank you all for attending. Let me just a tiny little bit about Sancor Energy, because I think it allows context for my comments. Sancor Energy is Canada's largest fully integrated energy company. We produce oil from the oil sands. We upgrade. We refine. We market. We distribute. We have the entire Petro-Canada retail chain. We have operations in various parts of the world, including some offshore off of the Newfoundland and Labrador coast, which is also part of Canada, but also Norway and the UK. We have been in fuels for a long time. I should also say part of our Petro-Canada network, you can actually, because we installed fast charging stations in enough stations across a country, you can actually drive an electric vehicle from coast to coast in Canada. For those of you who might think that doesn't sound like a big deal, I just encourage you to go and have a look at a map because it's a really, really long way from coast to coast in Canada. We're actually very proud of that, but we're very much in the fuels business. We built Canada's largest ethanol plant 15 years ago. We're certainly invested in various biofuels and other fuel efforts. We're invested in a company called Enerchem, which is in the process of converting non-recyclable municipal waste into fuel, a company called Lands Attack, which is doing some very interesting things, but in particular with respect to sustainable aviation he lands a jet, which is really focused on an alcohol to jet. So we're very interested in the fuel space. We have a tremendous amount of experience in the fuel space, but to get from here to where we need to get, there are three key issues. One is the technology, and I appreciate your enthusiasm about hydrogen. We do a lot of hydrogen at Suncor. I appreciate the enthusiasm. We're still hoping that we do things more quickly than we seem to think now, and we're certainly working on that. The technology is going to be very important. We're really at half as really as people describe it, SAF 1.0. We're looking at 2.0. I would say that the lands a jet, the alcohol to jet, is part of the 2.0. Where we go next is also very interesting, but technology, as with so much of what we're trying to do in terms of reducing emissions, is critical and will be continued to be so. Demand is also critical. We are not as a supplier of energy capable of producing, investing in technologies, investing in plants unless we know that there's going to be a return. It is simply we're a very large public company. Our shareholders demand that. Our investors demand that. So that's how we operate. Demand is going to be critical, and I think we'll be able to talk a little bit about the importance, for example, of the book and claim process. We need demand from airlines, and they need demand from their customers in order for us to be able to do what we need to do from a supply perspective. But I don't think we can forget the regulatory piece. So there's technology demand, but also regulatory environments. In Canada, we have clean fuel regulations. It's a bit complex. We have 10 provinces. We have a federal jurisdiction. One province has clean fuel regulations already. The federal government is very close to having significant regulation in place, which is really great for Canada. But this does not address the problem of a global industry and the need to supply a global industry if you have different regulations and different jurisdictions. So I do think when we talk about the regulatory environment, we really need to continue to work on collaborating globally or at the very least regionally so that we can make these efforts more efficient. Thank you, Martha. So let me come back to your detail because this book and claim, I find them can solve many of the issues that come in the imagination of people that think, okay, how am I sure that this is a good purchase? So can you tell us more? Yeah, maybe the best way to explain is to come back to the agreement which we have signed. You talked about South 1.0, 2.0. We have signed an agreement, a strategic agreement with Cinehalium, which is actually a producer of solar fuel. And they are going to build a factory in Spain close to Madrid. So at the end of the day, when a sustainable aviation fuel is produced in the neighborhood of Madrid, it cannot be that we as an airline are going to truck the sustainable fuel back to Zurich to pump it into our aircraft. It must flow in the nearest infrastructure available for aviation. And of course, if we pay for it and we develop and we support it and we fuel it into the tanks in Madrid, for example, we should get the credit for it. So that's the book and claim. And I think it's crucial because we, on the aviation side, we have an international business. CO2 doesn't stop at the border. So thus the whole fueling system and the whole sustainable aviation fuel. So that's critical to success. And maybe one point on demand, which you mentioned, Martha. On demand, we basically go for a commitment of 11% south by 2030 without yet having the commitment of the customers. So we have a lot of work to do both on the passenger and the cargo side to get the commitment to be able to finance that. So there is a long way to go, but we take commitments going ahead because we know this is time to move ahead. This is time to make the change. And so we have been talking a lot about it, but now we are very concretely going with concrete steps. And it's the same thing for our new technology, which we have developed on the Lufthansa group side with BAISF. It's called Sharkskin. It's a microfilm, which will glue onto the aircraft, the 777, the long-haul aircraft, which will allow us to save a little bit more than 1% of CO2 per year. So that's also a million, multimillion investment. And we're just doing it without a direct return. But why? Because we believe this transformation has to be made and we have to do it, not only for the next generations, but also for the planet. So it's a tough and a very expensive transformation, but we are in the middle of it. And it takes a lot of courage to make a commitment such as that when the infrastructure is not yet there and when you don't know if the clients are going to pay. So congratulations for that. And it gives a very clear signal to Dev and Marta to accelerate their plans, right? Because you have here someone that wants to buy. Now let me move into the governments because they have such a Germany, such an important role to play because this is a global problem and they need a global solution. So can you tell us more about how ICO is doing? What is the role of governments? And then we can go Europe or Italy. It would be great that you, yeah. Well, first of all, good morning everybody. Thank you for inviting me to this that looks really a Rubik's Cube. Because I think it's one of the most complicated issues that the transformation towards a sustainable economy is facing. We are facing. On this point of view, I think we should be realistic. Realistic also in terms of what the public sector can do in terms of building infrastructures for that. And I think that the ICO level at the European Union level, there are a lot of discussions going on, but we are not yet to the point where clear directions have been identified. Yes, in general, yes, but in practice. And we heard the difficulties in putting in practice, for example, a transition, as you said. If I may, before trying to answer your question, anyway, to do a step back and explaining why I changed the name of the ministry from infrastructures and transport into sustainable infrastructures and mobility. The reason why is that mobility is a concept which is much wider and more comprehensive than transport. And in fact, my director generals were not very happy because they were used to deal with the road, the railways and mobility is a nightmare from this point of view, but it's not only the future is what people want. And I think that just is not a digression, but as a former chief statistician of the OECD, I can tell you that the value of a service according to the national accounts at the world level depends on how the fruition, the consumption of that service changed the consumer. So it's not something related to the goods, of course, but it's how people change their well-being using that service. In that perspective, aviation sector is just one piece of moving from A to B. And this is where I think there are opportunities for synergies, but also for business opportunities in order to integrate the route that is managed by an aviation company with what is managed by a railway company or a bicycle, because some airports now are providing services by which people can land and they don't care about luggage because they know that this will be found at point B and then they jump on a bicycle and then start their travel. So you see, if you move to mobility, there are opportunities, first of all, to engage the users, the consumers into a reduction of the overall emissions of the whole route, not only what you do by flying. This is not a trick, but it's something that is closer to people's mind. And if you look at studies based on neuroscience, you see how especially new generation, but not only, is thinking in these new terms. This doesn't solve all the problems that you were talking about, but it changed the perspective. And I think that the aviation companies, not those who build the airplanes, but those who run the service, have a huge opportunity to change their business model. And this is what we are trying to do also with the new Italian company, ETA, which starts with a strong project for sustainability, but also immediate agreements with the railway company and so on and so forth. The second point I would like to make here is that the optimization can be done in several ways. And one of them is the optimization of routes. Think about what's happening with the Ukrainian crisis, that now the routes have to be changed with additional costs, because you cannot go straight. Now, as you know, these days we are discussing a lot on this regional globalization, which means that maybe blocks will be created and this is not good for global trade, it's not good for overall globalization in the name of security or strategic availability of resources and so on. What I'm trying to say is that through regulations, through the integration of, for example, air control, traffic control systems, we can gain a lot, even in Europe. So I think that beside the technological aspects, we have to work a lot on the other side of what would make possible for the aviation sector to contribute to the reduction of overall CO2 emissions. Thank you. And of course, Zoom and Teams have made the biggest emission reductions in the past years and have changed the way that we work as well. This is an important implication, maybe you can say something about this. I'm not replacing you, but... Before I jump to detail, I'm sure he has something to say. Because the composition of demand will be different, more leisure and less business, which is not a good news for the air companies. Yeah, but you didn't answer to our question about, you know, what is Europe and Italy going in terms of facilitating the integration of sustainable aviation? Yes, well, you are right. I apologize for that. We are discussing at European level the new regulations, of course, although the Ukrainian crisis is slowing down the discussion. But here the key issue is what kind of infrastructures should we build, exactly for the reasons that were mentioned before. For hydrogen, for sustainable aviation fuels, for electric... So the market options are still quite wide. We heard from Canada the question about hydrogen. That is very difficult to ask us because yesterday the maritime sector was asking us to do exactly this, to create infrastructures for any possible technology that will be used in future. No way. So the question of timing comes very relevant because, of course, we can try to have more low-ending fruits, as I mentioned before, optimization, but the decision of building new infrastructures can be made only when at least there will be a reduction of the options. Otherwise, this is not going to be manageable, especially as we are flying all over the world. So it is a problem of reciprocity. Very good. Well, I think what is clear with the great work that the World Economic Forum is doing in the first mover coalition, Mission Possible Partnership, is that there is an increasing amount of companies that want to replace conventional fuel with sustainable aviation fuels. So the demand is building up, and I think the industry needs both the demand and the regulation to get there. So let me come back to you because we... Yeah, so it is a challenging industry, right? And the composition of that demand is changing. I know that here in Switzerland there's been a debate about why should we have flights between Geneva and Zurich when we have a fantastic train that can bring you there and the challenges that that poses, I think. So can you help us understand more about this? Sure. And I fully agree with the minister on mobility. We actually started a couple of years ago to intensify the collaboration between the National Railway, SBP, here in Switzerland and Swiss, and we are moving it now to the next level. And what is the next level? As long as two mobility platforms are existing next to each other, it's very difficult for consumers because they prefer to be in one system because one system means I have information on delays, I have information on my luggage, and I know where things will come up to. So we had two systems which were basically living next to each other and if you have a delay on the train, the aircraft is not waiting for anybody because there is no connection between the knowledge. So a lot of people who were taking flights out of Zurich on the long haul, they're all sitting on our aircraft from Geneva to Zurich. Now we move to the next level and the next level is to connect the two systems also IT-wise, booking-wise, so that you can book the whole journey as one product. So you increase transparency, you increase information, you increase the whole experience of the travel. And that's where we take it to the next level, to create this mobility environment. It's a lot of work because it's technology, IT systems to connect, but we are on the right track. And of course if we see that there is a whole transformation and a swap of volumes from the flight to the train, then we will reduce the capacity we have on certain frequencies. But our motto at the end of the day is, the customer decides. The customer will have a lot of choices and the customer will decide which choices of transport he will use and at the end of the day we will adjust capacity to where the customer is making his choice. Thank you. Well looking forward to have that connection because who has not lost a plane because of that. Anyway let's move to the infrastructure that is needed to be built. So I think here I'm going to draw a parallel. You know now we have an acceleration of demand of renewables, heat pumps, and there's not enough people. So I think yeah we have accelerated the development of the technology but then there is a riskilling element as well that comes with it. How important is that and how are you incorporating that in your plans? I don't know Martha or both, who wants to take this question? I'll start with a view. I actually think having been involved in building low-carbon energy businesses globally, I think there is a slight seduction around building the infrastructure. We have to look at old infrastructure and how we can repurpose it and I think this is an area that I don't think has got enough you know focus and I think as we look forward the question is going to be for example in our refineries we're looking to convert from green to green hydrogen. We are actually looking at our units to sort of you know basically we've announced this to basically produce waste you know productive energy. So I think there is a huge opportunity around the existing infrastructure, the repurposing of it, rather than just building the infrastructure. So I think that's the first bit. I think there's a second element that I think we shouldn't be too obsessed by demand. I think there is going to be a massive amount of demand. The big issue from my perspective is how do you scale up to reduce costs and therefore you know that is if you will the homework question number one and if you look at sort of other industries in broader low carbon renewable energy space I mean you know the market signals provided have created a velocity of money and investments and the velocity has been over time resulted in lowering of costs. So if you look at solar an 85% reduction in costs in the last decade wind turbines to 25% improvement in efficiency and by the way that's not a period of that. It's going to continue. It's relentless because digitalization new technologies will actually create that momentum. So I think the issue is going to be from my vantage point how do we repurpose and number one, number two how do we actually create the right market signals so things like PPAs or contracts for differences actually creates a de-risking pool of capital. When you've got assured demand assured rent you can bring in new forms of capital that go after it. So which is now the biggest investor in renewable energy in the United States? Pension funds because of that particular reason and the third aspect is I don't think there's a huge amount of re-skilling to be done. I think what we the process engineering kind of got invented a long time ago that'll continue to be the norm as you look at this but I do think it's important that we don't stop. So there's idea of you know we the way we think about environmental energy is we've got a business where we want to transact where we can actually improve costs and carbon, big focus. We then have to invest in transition businesses so think of this as 1.5g and then you've got to go to transformation and transformation has you know a long time horizon and by the way not indefinitely long but along in the sense of you know you can create commercial scale which is why we've got to think of this in a sort of 30 a cycle but not with everything's going to happen in near 30 it has to happen progressively every year. So transactions, transitions and transformation and you can't say I'm going to just improve my transaction transitions you've got to invest it in the transformation otherwise you're going to have the same problem in 10 years from now but just a different kind of problem but the same problem. Thank you and I'm going to go to the audience to see if there are any questions but before doing that I want to turn to Mathe if you want to add to what they've said. And actually the re-skilling piece in terms of labor is an interesting when we talk infrastructure we often forget that that's a fundamental part of it when we're talking fuels that's one of the reasons why SAF is has a greater potential because we're you know Suncor we're big or major refiners the opportunity to transfer those those skills into refining something different is quite a bit different than doing something completely different. I would also say infrastructure, physical infrastructure among the challenges with electrification and using hydrogen for airlines is also infrastructure. How do you actually refuel? How do you have all the infrastructure to be able to get electricity even if it were possible to do it now in terms of actual flight? We cannot forget the challenges of on-the-ground infrastructure right and we often do forget that when we're having these conversations so it's it's the whole of it that's really important. And then I would just add a comment that Dieter made earlier about it doesn't make sense for the business to build a plant in every near every airport just doesn't make sense or to build a plant in Spain and truck the the material to Zurich. Let me just stress it also makes no sense environmentally and we are doing all of this to reduce emissions that it just simply doesn't make sense. So for the regulators and the politicians and the people in the room or or or watching who might be paying attention to this and and being challenged a little bit with the book and claim process there are other reasons why that makes an awful lot of sense. So thank you. Number two the table yes please can you tell your name here's the mic coming thank you. Thank you Val Miftukov founder and CEO of Ziraya we're a hydrogen electric aircraft company or engine brother and we're flying several prototypes already in commercial 2024. My question is about how the panel thinks about the overall climate impact of aviation. There is academic consensus now that carbon is only about a third of the total climate impact of aviation and NOx particulates high temperature water vapor and upper atmosphere contribute at least as much and obviously we're not getting that out with the SAFs so how do how does the panel think about that challenge? Well it's a very good question. We are still in the development of experiencing the long-term effect of SAF. I mean you know the lubrication also of SAF is different than the fuel we use at this point. So from the perspective of the island the focus we have is really to reduce the CO2 that's the main focus we have not saying that the other topics are not important but as a first priority it's really everything on CO2. If I'm not correct 85% less emissions SAF compared to jet fuel well the current biofuels have minus 85% if you go into solar fuels you're talking about 98% emissions reduction. Just one point I wanted to make we have recently published a report from motorcycles to the aviation just looking at all the forms of transport and it's important to understand that what is the overall coherence of the availability for example of biofuels and where you allocate them because now everybody's saying well cars well why don't we use biofuels and then trucks and so we don't have enough biofuels for everything so the other side of one of the other sides of this Rubik's cube is to allocate the different type of fuels to the most effective transition and this is another part of it's a political choice not individually taken by one country because of the reciprocity problem which makes the story very complicated especially to try to explain to the market why are you choosing one particular solution for that particular transport system so we have to have this holistic way otherwise we are talking about dreams and we shouldn't be talking about dreams but very concrete decisions. Okay then we have two quick questions. I just wanted to ask because Martha also said it before I mean we are talking about if we talk hydrogen electric and so on it will take a long long time we cannot sit and wait until we reach that point so we need the transition to get there and there the sustainable aviation will be the the main component really driving us into into a greener future and transition even within SAF so the standard right now that when I said earlier technology is also really important HEPA but the competition for what would otherwise be agricultural land or agricultural products you end up with the competition with food sources especially now given what's happening with the the crisis in Ukraine we're going to see over the next while significant food challenges globally that will it quite directly have people saying well wait a minute if we're going to have limited resources shouldn't we be allocating them to to people as opposed to the version SAF 1.0 which is the only one we have might that accelerate 2.0 3.0 yes one hopes it does but we just it it is all it's the Rubik's Cube there we just can't look at these things in isolation those are great questions so I'm afraid we don't have more time to question but I welcome you to come after and ask directly the question so I love the rubric example because I don't know how to do it but my kid knows okay and there are some and there are tricks to do it and it's always there are some steps that you need to do to get to decarbonize aviation so as much as there are many challenges what I like about this panel is that at least we know that sustainable aviation fuel reduce 85 percent of emissions we have a goal 10 percent by 2030 companies wants to buy it I can assure you that if we start with that step that goal will be increased because I have seen it in many other sectors okay so my concluded comment and there's only one minute left is that we need to start to get to that final point and that we need to learn about what are the steps and the different technologies and the different possibilities that are and learn through the way but what we can't do is to stay paralyzed because it is complicated to do it so thank you very much and yeah looking forward to seeing progress on this space thank you