 Hello everybody and welcome to um Sunday's sort of midday panel at the OASSE OpenSeam Communicator indeed a community conference although communication actually is what it's all about in many ways. Now before I start um this panel was always actually going to be about something a wee bit different this year rather than strictly the hypergrid um but um a program or platform rather you probably know um of if don't use yourself uh high fidelity uh has um I guess you call it some major upsets during the week um in recent months it has um moved to the trying to be a platform for enterprise um meetings basically whilst maintaining its original sort of beta um public platform um but it seems that the traction is just not good enough and so in a post-mid week Phillip Roestell announced that as of January the 15th this coming year um basically hi-fi as we know it is no longer available and this in fact includes unfortunately the the audio codecs that they did so much work on and things like that. However one distinguishing factor about uh high fidelity is that a good part of it I mean really quite a good part of it um has actually always been um open source and the repositories for the open source code have been available for people to compile for themselves and work on I suppose um I'm not really a techie but let's call it variations um of their own. Now coincidentally uh before this later sort of for all I was talking to um Ilam Totna who is here today um a couple of weeks ago and um he let me know that he was working with that open source code um on something uh for Kitely and of course I think most people here know Kitely through the marketplace and the grid and um simultaneously um I gathered um that um of um Katelyn Katelyn Meeks yes um was also um working on a project called uh Tivoli the company name is Tivoli um again using the um open source side of hi-fi and it typically going through my head was the idea that well it's not the hypergrid but the way hi-fi has always been built in other words individuals with domain names and often with their servers on their own computer sort of sandboxes there's great similarity to the way the hypergrid works including um for um Beckhausen's things like Outworlds where the users often have a grid running on their own machine which is their home and they jump in and out to other locations from that so I saw quite a few parallels here I'll go first of all introduce who we've got on the uh the panel I've got Michelle Michelle L yeah it's it's it's actually Lecrone actually Lecrone I thought it was but I didn't want to I didn't want to say it's the case okay we've got Michelle Lecrone who's um actually principally a filmmaker she makes films in Second Life and Sansar and Ivorydellacy and um all over the place you've been around for ages actually yeah um also for making film and stuff like that I think a lot of these other platforms not open similar Second Life um you often actually have to do quite a bit of work yourself figuring out how to work cameras and things like that because absolutely there's nothing is on the interface that we know um next to me on the couch here I've got Ilan Tokna from I I never sure I pronounced you right is that right Ilan yeah you're not sure Ilan's not right who is from Kitely and we of course know Kitely through both the Kitely marketplace which serves as the whole hybrid and Kiley grid which is on the hybrid and uses well uses a slightly different method of bringing what it calls worlds online rather than regions and stuff like that but it's all connected to our traditional hypergrids and finally oh that's a breath already I have Kalila Lakeworth um now Kalila is with a company called Kaizen IO that's K A S E N I O and this is a sort of community hi-fi project that also has been sort of going on um since before this week's news so in a sense what we're discussing could be independent of the news this week but um I think we will be discussing a bit more because of the um basically I've got the question and answer sheet up beside me here you know saying what we will have access to and what we won't kind of thing um very quickly I'd like to go to you first Ilan um because this is a traditional open sim conference um is there any quick news you want to stick in apart from the the the the hi-fi thing here about Kitely because um we've had no info from Kitely at the conference so is there anything new coming up with the marketplace or the traditional Kitely or should we just leave straight into um we've been focused on this last well it's the last couple of years we've been building what we call organizations which are a type of virtual grid uh somewhat similar to uh standalone grids uh but using different infrastructure and uh have different capabilities uh particularly focused on uh organization administration capabilities uh so as uh you're able to manage uh groups of users and groups of world and their uh related permissions in um a way that is um a lot more conducted to um I have to call it more scaled up usage of of um uh virtual worlds for example and if you have a MOOC and you want to have uh thousand instances of a world being used by different groups uh you don't want to have to start managing each user's permissions inside each world that that's un-lunchable so in Kitely organizations you can define let's say you have students and you have classes inside those uh inside under this hierarchy of students and then you divide the teaching groups inside those each of those classes and you can have um permissions being inherited by you basically saying uh Joe Schmoe belongs to uh study group A that belongs to class 101 that this part of students and so forth and allows you to easily manage things and this is actually being used by um multiple colleges in Israel um there's a big um project currently uh there's a finalist and a UNESCO um conference uh which we hope to blog about soon um and where this project was used as an a diversity course uh with hundreds of students from multiple universities or Jews Arabs the religious people secular words and it was very interesting with the divided groups of people into uh six students uh groups and they had hundreds of worlds so um they used this organization system with its API to basically manage this entire course and tie it in with their own website. Joy uh Joy Spesnko in chat has just said that um we I remember hearing this as Lady Eileen O'Connor from SUNY um earlier giving a presentation earlier and she was going she mentioned that that they've been using Kitely organizations for educational projects so when you talk about Kitely organizations are we talking about obviously that presumably includes OpenSim and this um making use of the open source high-five code does it include other things too you know was are you playing with other code bases um as part of this or is it strictly open sim and kind and high-five. This was missed uh Kitely our design from the get go was multi-platform so the infrastructure we built which is more than 400,000 lines of code of our own code right now built on top of millions of lines of coded various open source projects um was built to support sorry built to support multiple platforms so we have OpenSim and we have high fidelity and there's other things that we haven't announced yet that um we may remain up to market depending on our uh whether our timing with launching high fidelity um so uh there's a there's a lot and shared uh between uh how are we we uh let's say our offering space and organizations for OpenSim and high-fidelity uh would have been different than different pricing model different capabilities um a lot of what we've built for high-fidelity I think there's more of the next generation of our services uh things that are not uh so easily added to OpenSim uh because of clashes with existing permission system and so forth um and so uh that particular system uh would be used with uh any additional um platforms we roll out later on. Okay well let's get a bit more of an idea of the variety going on here I'm going to move to you Kelly uh um when we were talking you did um actually I think it was actually in world in high fire you mentioned um that Cassin had actually already had some dealings here with um Kylie right uh decided so to speak um sorry oh you said with Kylie oh did you mean upstream perhaps or oh and no I'm looking at your um I'm looking at the the case and IO website and it actually mentions Kylie there and I gathered that you'd actually done worked on some projects with Kylie or have I got that wrong no that is true um on on Kylie the many of the colleges that Elon was referring to one of them or I guess there's three in one world and I scripted together the whole world since it was uh the high-fidelity platform and I am a programmer for high-fidelity so right um okay yeah okay I was just trying to get a sense of more about that that particular project and how it connects it with um Elon's platform although presumably there if you don't want to say no I do I do sorry uh it's not exactly connected to uh Kylie's we we both are technically forks of high-fidelity um and this project project Athena is its own independent thing if I had to say it's really the spiritual successor to what high-fidelity was doing um then just taking on the project as they shudder the their own repo to change direction and and I think that we are going to have a lot of agility to be able to move around things and offer better uh focus on user experience to new members I'm I'm hoping that we could invite more people from OpenSim to graduate to this platform uh and not feel left out or feel intimidated by it because I don't know how many people here know about virtual reality or what it's like and I want people to know that uh project Athena um it it welcomes people that are on desktop and virtual reality alike you know everything from in world building in world modeling uh scripting everything you know uh it's just right out the gate something that I think that people can feel comfortable with and something that they can work with their friends with I think every new I mentioned this on the panel yesterday I think every new platform comes along um some of us like to jump into all of them and try on every device and stuff although I'm not actually personally that keen on how it says but we're always confronted it seems with a new learning curve for the effect the um not using virtual reality or virtual worlds per se but the interface client you know for the world we want to go to you know you jump from OpenSim or Second Life into Philip Seinfeldalacy and you know you didn't know what to do because nothing worked the same way you know you couldn't move your camera and um then you moved to Science Space which we had on earth yesterday and their their interface works completely differently again and I haven't even figured out how to run that sound sort of thing yes I don't want to be rude um but no you know that seemed a bit different again um so you know there are there are well we we weren't talking to Robert Bursey here but um I do see the model well somebody actually said that um HyperDursey had been modeled on OpenSim and I don't I don't really think Philip would agree with that but he has taken a loss of he did actually take a lot of ideas from OpenSim one one is um he was probably ahead of um outworlds in terms of the uh you know pushing the idea of everybody having their own sandbox or server you know on their own computer um but the idea that people would have domain names and you know people eventually had to log into those domains independently of um you know sort of going through uh hi-fi map or something like that um there was a lot of similarities to the way the individual grids which are really separate companies separate concerns running OpenSim are all joined together by the hyper grid so you know your your identity means you can jump all over the place and um I think Philip's vision of the metaverse was a wee bit like that wasn't it is but in fact didn't he call it the metaverse api at some point um it's a bit like that I would say just a little bit like yeah it's a bit more than I know I think that his vision was um the hyper grid one of the uh I think key strengths and the thing that makes it a bit quite different from various other virtual world platforms is that it is a truly federated system where you have different namespaces for users and regions and so forth where each grid defines basically controls its own users and there are um Philips I've I've spoke to Philips several times about this we say we had disagreements um his his vision was more high fidelity in focus and then they would run the domain basically the domain name registry they would run the well it's not directly which was kind of concerning but they would control the marketplace and the blockchain so they were open to people connecting on top of their own controlled namespaces think about thinking about like the open web I would say um where you've got to main names in general and just think about that in the virtual space that's kind of thing he was pushing at the time pretty much yeah and so I think that the one of the things that enables opensome to survive as long as it has and still hadn't been developed I think years after well very well funded um projects have come and gone um and that it is a federated system where people do control uh not just the running zone servers but actually controlling the the user accounts and controlling their destiny and such that uh let's say we were all being using high fidelity right now and they shut down the domain system um we would be basically stuck and so one of the first things we did when we started building our support for for high fidelity um it was that we recreated all the grid services that they didn't release as open source so we'd be able to be independent from high fidelity's inc basic universe um and I think that uh as the news about high fidelity uh shutting down its repo and stopping developing of its open source code base we're in a uh I think in a situation where people looking at uh whether to go adopt high fidelity are going to be looking at whether there's a remaining active developer community which is kind of the viability of the project long term I think high high fidelity it's its current state has a lot of potential that does some things much better than opensome um for example being able to have almost 500 people in the world and VR doing additional audio it's it was quite amazing in various aspects there are other aspects of it which are uh nowhere near where open sim is and one of the key things that it's currently missing is that developer of the code system um and without it uh it puts in danger anyone you know trying to build the project on top of it so we're in a good position right now of we're evaluating whether to launch our high fidelity offering or not um and we're rather to focus instead on one of the other platforms we've uh you know we've been developing for so that's um it's an interesting question we're we're undecided yet we were looking at basically seeing whether there's a remaining developer um whether we can get something like we'd have for open sim where there's a core group of people developing pushing high fidelity forward you know we have various ideas of how what could be improved what's uh to make it more viable long term I think the high fidelity of its own graphics uh side of thing was I would have gone instead of going with the good old engine which is an open source engine which kind of uh and enables us to move forward there's a very technical thing that we could do to to improve I mean I'm I'm sorry yeah I mean I've been looking at the um the Q&A Philip put up as well um it seems to me that when it comes to the um you know the actual source code at GitHub and stuff like that anybody while it's still there and they are taking some of that down but while it's still there anybody can download it build it and it seems to me I mean when open sim started for example even before the hybrid grid it was a matter of people saying oh well we'll download our own version of second life and work on these and eventually lots of different people worked on these and they came together and eventually we ended up with the hybrid grid but basically you know different people developers had different things and I'm wondering if something like you know working strictly with the strict open source code that people can get from hybrid doji whether a similar sort of thing could develop you know maybe maybe there will be particular enterprises built on each that have unique things about them but underlying it all there will be a kind of community of code developers there uh do you see that kind of happening uh calio uh maybe calio hello i'm sorry you were muted I know yes yes I read myself for these things so I wanted to could you just repeat that summary real quickly I was having a bit of an audio I see oh yeah I was just comparing the idea of um high fives open source code you know that people can download and compile and develop in their own right you know um individual limbs but also um the idea of a collective limb where developers will contribute code and um I've disappeared in world I'm told I can see I can see myself anyway I'll carry on talking they can sort it out um yeah so open sim has really benefited from the fact that a lot of people used it so they could have their own kind of mini second life but then different people developed different things and then it all came together and they were sharing code until you actually had this right I have gone now haven't I hello right I can still be heard I hope yes yes yes right I don't know where I went to or how I went but I'm going to try and come back in while I'm concentrating I'll talk at the same time okay um yeah so the this community I mean this is called um you know community conference for example um there are a lot of people working together on the code and some people I mean I guess Ilan here will be um somebody who develops a lot of proprietary code for himself but at the same time contributes community code too so the platform in general is shared by enough people that it progresses and develops even though individual concerns um you know use the code for their own thing yeah so do you think that is a good feature to look forward to with you know the hi-fi code really for sure um for project Athena as far as we know is the only open source initiative under this code base so uh by default we are open to that kind of thing you know so when we add a feature it can be propagated to all the others so that's tightly fully um if they so chose and then it's up to them if they would like to contribute back or maintain protocol compatibility so that our clients can bounce between that um currently we're looking into getting a metaverse alternative spun up before the 15th that way people don't feel lost and the big difference with what we're doing here right now is to ensure that is open source the reason why things are descend into such chaos and depression sometimes when things shut down is because people don't have any recourse but when things are open source you do have recourse if they had an open source metaverse api the first thing we would do is just compile it spin it up and then think about improving and changing things but unfortunately because it was not open source what we have to do is go back and rebuild that and with project Athena that's not an issue ever because well if it's open source from the start then all our cards are on the table and there's always a way to contribute back and also to derive benefit and to be secured in knowing that there is still a future for everything no matter who picks up the torch i'd like to weigh in if i may i think yeah please stay yes i think that the main key of the of this uh and it's called son or daughter of high fidelity uh succeeding is that it does mimic how open sim approached the metaverse as in being a federated identity system based system it has to be multigrid it cannot be a single grid that is supported by any single entity or controlled by any single entity meaning that you will have um different people can follow their own namespaces determining the wrong terms of service and so forth um and if we have that and i think there are lessons to be learned how high the protocol was created i think there are things that we can do better with with high fidelity but i agree i think that that's but this for this to happen uh we have to see enough developers getting on board i think high fidelity is a great option going forward i think that are there are certain things that high fidelity Inc did not do with the code base that we could do um as a group uh if there are enough people of us doing it um because if there aren't this is just going to get neglected and it's one become one of i don't know how many thousands of great open source projects that would just become dormant and unsupported so uh for for i think if we're looking here at an open sim conference if we want to see the the vision of open sim going forward i think high fidelity uh offers that option for future development uh especially if we we we start now leveraging other open source projects such as the the gobel engine uh for the entire which is multi-platform and we lost one of the web browser and mobile devices and so forth and just unattached high fidelity i think the good parts of it which are the um servers and managing entities voice and so forth sweating and unattached them from uh from the presentation there which i think is uh is going to be problematic to maintain if we if we pursue uh just uh high fidelity Inc codes well my understanding from from people um hosting around servers from a basic point of view is it's a snipe address so um if people want to invite people to their own places they still can as far as i know um and um that is i mean it's super powerful anybody to use and that kind of sense but obviously if you want a server set up then you may want somebody else to do that for you because it's easier i suppose well um actually i completely agree with what ilan was saying about the federated model i'm a huge fan of the fediverse decentralization and so on and so the basis for that when you make an open source uh metaverse api then you can actually add on federation afterwards so you can have a metaverse with a grand total of one and then grand total of a thousand or a million and then make an all interconnect so that is the basis open source then you move on to that um and as for high fidelity i mean we it's a real passion project i have to admit uh we have ex-employees from high fidelity incorporated that just work on this project project Athena because they care about it they care about it people play open sim for immersion they escape to another world well how far can we take that i mean people always want more they want to get further and further into their character in their world and how far can we go unfortunately open sim has such technological limitations in the way that it's architected it's far easier to start over than it is to restructure everything and so high fidelity i think is one way to get around that because when you think of a 3d world well what's the next step in a 2d screen well that's virtual reality and virtual reality is no small task performance technology has to be really well done and so i think that if we leverage that and even if you use desktop on high fidelity and you make your stuff in desktop on high fidelity for desktop users it doesn't matter because then you have a forward path to making that fully virtual reality enabled because it's the two types of users in the same world so that i think is a good path to the future this is this is the um well there's two issues here one is that as a user as opposed to a developer or whatever um i'm um sorry i'm considering uh one of our cameraman put my avatar on just in case i didn't get back i think that's funny right um that's a good idea really but never mind um yeah there's the um as a user i'm very concerned about the viewer for example will the existing viewer or further developments of it be the way i guess into i don't know if only projects or anything else you know um or will or will this this development of the code require a different viewer um obviously we have issues of you know presumably work on the sound will have to be redone because they're also sourcing the sound is actually um available today just so you know guys the sound is actually available the original uh raw codec is still as far as i know is allowed it was the uncompressed version that is not allowed um right so as far as i i was you know they said they wouldn't give out at least i must say actually philip i did reach out to philip for the codec on high fidelity and he didn't say no he said they will look into it so we the jury's still out on that that we may very well be able to keep and redistribute that because that's very good audio by the way guys i have it i have it my my my take on it is uh they released the high fidelity um source code for the codec um as a patchy too which includes a patent provision uh so legally wise you're allowed to use it based on the license they used to distribute it uh so their answer and the f a q is kind of contradictory to the license they're already used to to release the code for the codec so um they may or may not want it but they already released this code you know if the license that allows you to use it then you have patent protection for a suit from using it so again this is not legal advice but this is what the license says that the license they to release it with i think i i suspect in terms of philip and co the you know the court owners of the thing um they they had an enormous amount of entry capital um you know by our standards anyway injected into them and i'm sure they aren't actually in a position where they can just give everything away and then move on to something else the their investors will want them to keep some stuff proprietary um even though at the moment it's hard to know where they will use it if they're not running high fidelity per se but they they i know philip says that with it they will be working on something else and they'll let us know in a few months what it is yeah that anybody's guess but um yeah so i mean from my point um the old thing i found is that even after january 15th apparently you can still log in time for jealousy and go to the existing places right you should go to people's deney and see what you can't do is get anything from the you know you still have your inventory but you remember to get anything from the market post or edit anything you've already got so it would just be become a sort of static thing um like that so i presume people have already got accounts in there like um i guess all of us here yeah log in and visit places we know or go to go to you know dr france weekly meeting or something like that um it's just when it comes to news stuff it all has to be done you know from scratch he won't be able to set up a new account after that um you know that point is just you know it's not it's not allowing that to happen but um but in general everything will work i mean you'll still have your inventory and all that stuff there i know a few people are concerned about that the inventory will stay for a while for sure yeah yeah so yeah and also if you've got money in there you can cash that out until january 15 so you better get to make an appointment for the bank quite quickly yeah i i believe that there might maybe a few bit later on that you should probably get in touch with them quickly but um but certainly they're they're talking about how you know how many people are numbers of people doing that so yeah and you have to be careful the times too because most of the stuff tends to be uh california times so people in london like me never around when the bank is open gosh golly i need a credit card don't i it's usually six o'clock when we're having tea yes actually it's no funny one thing that we have noticed is um michel will agree with me i think there are a lot of us brits in if i aren't there that's very true yeah i don't know what you're being yeah yeah well yeah you're but i don't know you know why i know the accents though i i keep thinking there's a lot a lot of accents here i know yeah anyway especially northern ones right um moving back getting back on point okay so um of um what do you see are going to be the real things that are going to have to then let's take the idea of working with a fedy verse if we call it that and you know um people working at separate projects but also developing the code and community or whatever um what do you think are the priorities because obviously at the moment we're losing things um from um you know the official uh corporate hi-fi yeah um what are the priorities for the things that need to be updated replaced i mean um the viewer for example or um the disease and i would say the login doesn't really matter this stage i mean you don't really need to log in to use the interface at all um what's basically the viewer anyway so that's no no i mean but you don't know where you're going don't you the only problem is obviously the the address as you've been saying and and we've been discussing that in the past and as a community in general and um and maybe we can do some think with a go you know some kind of go to that kind of thing but i mean it could be relayed on webdressers anyway as it's on the basic level anyway so um but it it it it can be very simplified at this time and then obviously built up into a better thing um i if i mean um i think that uh having you know we've spent quite a lot of time um preparing for a launch of a high-fidelity based system and um the cost of running high-fidelity is much much higher than it is the running openson mainly due to bandwidth requirements currently so i would say in order to be something that could actually be viable financially uh you know when you get to a point where you actually have people enrolled and that's just running empty servers uh you you you have to optimize the bandwidth usage currently it's it's it's just way too expensive i i'm suddenly thinking somebody mentioned earlier which is a true you know you can have things like the that festival they help with like 500 avatars but i mean you may be able to get 500 avatars into a simulator but that you know well on the server side that must be a hell of an expensive way to wait they said that their cost for this uh less than an hour of conference was more than 150 dollars and data center cost if i recall correctly which is uh you do the math that's not something that is is uh viable for most types of projects running openson currently so it would be not not an issue at all for a big organization but it's uh but for most of the usage people currently have for openson you the the the data requirements per user need to be optimized drastically for this to be financially viable there is some optimizations they did recently so i mean not if it's not all bad if you if you are pushing up but i i you know there's been this discussion about the codec particularly as well and in the past as well but um yeah i would i would agree on that part that certainly it needs to optimize but i would say you know servers are getting cheaper for certain and i mean what amd is doing is magically at this moment and it's definitely going to cost cost for sure but um but certainly the software definitely needs to be managed a bit better for sure i'm going to just mention something highly technical that i don't understand but i want the answer anyway if you sort of make yes um yeah i had a panel yesterday and uh i had somebody from um mozilla hubs on it which of course is some of you just jump into on the web and can send an older people to join you and um i had somebody else from vr chat who does a talk show so i i got to know them and um i was very surprised to find that you can pick up whole regions in vr chat and make copies for yourself like a separate instance i mean if the creator gives you permission and then you can you know you can use that so i can take a copy of this whole studio uh because they allow me to and then i can use that as my studio with a bit of modification and we also talk to adenfant science space and they also have a system where if they have a big event they don't actually try and put the avatars in the same simulation what they do is they uh what do they call it again they make some proxies instancing that's it yes so well instancing work with the hybrid code do you want to try it again because i think we all know the answer to this one oh instancing it can indeed because you can spin up multiple servers on the fly like you you can make a uh image for a droplet and spin up 20 of the same domain because high fidelity's back end is already configured where you can drag and drop a uh json full of all the whole world the whole world can be copied into 20 servers and deployed just like that so it is oar in open sim but you can drop it in some possible places actually somebody has modified an oar before a little bit in blender and just brought it straight into high fidelity so yeah they do that in science space too so exactly yeah so it's fun so it gives people a path to go but yes in terms of handling events um i think high fidelity does do something special though because while other systems force you to instance high fidelity in their pursuit to fit so many people in such a small space whether reasonable or not it did cause a lot of optimization to be done and that means that you have the choice to load a whole bunch of people into one space and you do not need it to instance though you can choose to do so and i think the choice based on your company's groups or just your personal needs is very very helpful i'd love to uh choose again i think strength of what she just said is that uh bandwidth requirements aside um the capabilities that high fidelity currently has uh when it comes to 3d positional voice and the number of users in world in the same space we've are charging are quite extraordinary um especially from open sim open source project which is it's quite you know it's a big if nothing else high fidelity incorporated gift gave the world uh this gift in the kind of a foundation that could be used to build a great um meta first uh open source project platform uh but there really needs to be a community of developers to to take this uh further and and then make sure that this doesn't get you know dropped to the side of the road before it reaches uh enough maturity that's amazing i think yeah this sounds like an awfully familiar story you know to us in open sim where you know you have um i mean it's only a speckle on the internet but i mean you have something we consider to be fairly large like a um second life and then open sim should be as good but cheaper for the user kind of thing but you know it um all the developers for something like say um fast home viewer 99% of them are second life exclusive users you know you're occasionally one pops off who can help configure it for open sim so you know that i think there's going to be i know this has been discussed in hi-fi so i'm not going to hear there's going to have to be some discussion about how to publicize and make make it known that this the community exists and the world is being built um before this latest thing came up and we are running short on time so i have to be quick here um um philip had written an article about um you know what he considered i would i totally agree with him the kind of failure of of headsets um not only their form factor and price at the moment but also the fact that they haven't taken off then i had now i don't mean not at all obviously all the hardcore gamers have gotten into their oculus and everything and they want games to do that because that's their thing although ironically the headset is a more isolating experience and a social experience much of the time but um the in terms of revenue for headsets and things a lot of it has been the enterprise you get surgeons and architects and things in the workplace that want to use vr because it enhances what they do so vr has hardly been a failure but it hasn't gained traction amongst the public and i'm in the general public you know it's not becoming new television or something like that and the few people that some people use it just to be in your face television um so in developing if you're as new code and stuff like that um my personal belief is the platform always comes first and you worry about how people are going to access it afterwards you know is it going to be desktop or is it going to be desktop and vr or is it going to be mobile and vr but no desktop etc etc you know so how you know but on the basis of what you guys know of the code available how adaptable is it do you think we're working on the project where the code will service all those methods of accessing it or do you think the trend is to you know maybe start with something that's desktop and then bring the vr or the mobiles in afterwards well i would say in my experience that you know all these devices can be used um to do these things and certainly the the the mobile is definitely interesting from the air point of view i don't know if you know guys that's basically mixed reality to you and me but um i mean that that stuff is definitely coming along on bounds for sure and yeah the headsets are uh a little bit expensive and they come down a lot price like the mixed reality headsets from microsoft yeah um i believe marcus uses them a lot so and we're seeing we're seeing glasses the glasses now that where they plug into a separate engine so yeah somebody just mentioned val's um project coming up and certainly they're selling hotcakes after that announcement so um i would say that um i would be silly not to involve all them kind of ideas into that kind of software um from my point of view it'd be silly not to support that kind of technique if you look at um if you look at the the novel part the way the web vr stuff then that supports generally everything so that'd be silly not to say that you couldn't spot desktop mobile and vr or yeah whatever it is coming out basically okay uh that's four minutes now so sorry sorry your thoughts on that one well all my thoughts are that high fidelity works great right out the door with desktop and vr so i've played vr chat actually uh quite a bit and i must say that for all the desktop users that i've always encountered if they like vr chat and enjoy vr chat and stay around those thousands of people logging on every day they are almost guaranteed to have a headset they will get a headset within six months or a year and they have a whole support group all their friends because there's always going to be someone with vr they can coach them teach them and they're all getting vr and that's because desktop users and vr users are able to intermingle seamlessly in high fidelity enables that right so they have an upgrade path so open simmers right for example open simmers may not have ever tried vr might find it daunting but they can come in and make that transition whenever they are comfortable yeah i think it's down to the waste bills i mean i'm in the last couple of days i've been in both neon i think neos neos vr and of course vr chat because i was um you know with a ghost of that and um i i felt very uncomfortable on the 2d screen because the interface was clearly designed for a headset although it did work on the screen whereas other worlds actually definitely do have screens like high fidelity that look fine in 2d inans without the two minutes i think if not one so i'm gonna ask you to back up on the same theme i'll do this quickly then i think that uh a path from desktop to mobile uh to uh web or um eventually leading to vr is one that you have to plan for and think that's one of the key benefits that high fidelity brings to the table that opens them uh while at least in its current state and will have issues with um i think high fidelity is a better path uh if it gets a big enough development community to the future because it is multi-platform and allows you this growth path saying that it might take some while for virtual reality gear to become a common place but it will happen and you have to be ready for it okay well i'm told one minute remaining no time for me as i am now um i i i do must say i like um pushing discord as a method of communication um if you actually have a discord account or want to get one there are a number of groups um on discord there's our own hybrid explorers and creators of course so i should say mine and have a go now one bus but bus um on the topic we're talking about here if you want to uh keep in touch with it all um there is a group called Tivoli cloud vr on discord which is um actually um let me see kaitlyn's uh one mix yeah um uh which obviously has um exodus in it and um although there are several high fidelity ones there is one that's actually called federated high five vr users which is also a very good um uh group to be in and obviously this conversation as it were is going to continue in those two discord channels as forums if not elsewhere so i think i'll go leave it at that and um you can check i i think i have gone again around update the website a bit with a little bit more information because there are changes to this panel but for now i'd like to thank michelle thank you i'd like to thank you land thank you and i'd like to thank kalia i'm glad to help and it's been a wonderful conversation and uh maybe we'll see you in its touching news next year maybe we will build the metaverse by then but we will see bye for now