 As-Salaamu Alaykum and welcome to tonight's live show on Imam Hussein TV. Tonight's topic we'll be looking at mixed gatherings. The cultural clash, if there is one, the law around it. What happens if one is to mix at work, in the gym, at home, in gatherings, social gatherings? What happens if one is invited to weddings which are actually mixed? Through all, hajj is mixed, but the mosques are all segregated. How does one interact? Is there a balance? Can there be a balance as it were? What is the sharia requirements around it? What is halal and what is not halal as it were? With joining me tonight we have Dr. Sayyid Amman Naqshwani. As-Salaamu Alaykum, Dr. Sayyid Amman Naqshwani, it's a great pleasure to have you on again on this show. Thank you. Thank you. I haven't been on this show for a couple of weeks. We've missed you. Yes, I've missed you as well. Likewise. Alhamdulillah. Thank you. This topic is definitely quite pertinent. After all, if Islam claims to be dynamic and it seeks to fulfil all the requirements in the social atmosphere, for example, attending places, in halal environments, how does one, especially in this day and age, and this is quite important, especially for the youth, boys and girls, mixing together. How does one, for example, go to the mosque where it's segregated and also how does one interact outside? Well, as you said, it's a contemporary issue because this question is raised in virtually every community that I've ever lectured in and really goes to highlight just how many issues the Western demographic faces when it comes to law because a lot of the discussions concerning mixed gatherings are discussions which were formulated in an environment mainly in the Middle East. We could say that even the Shi'i Jafar illegal system, as we have it today, the main names involved in formulating an understanding of one's social responsibilities or one's social etiquettes or one's ethics with the same or the opposite gender is formulated mainly in Iranian or in Iraqi circles. Okay. You're looking at these great scholars who would have either narrated the traditions of the Ahl al-Bayt, peace be upon them, or were the main jurists who would have provided us with these guidelines. They would have provided these guidelines never really having lived in the West at any time. In many cases, when you bring up the names of Yazdi or you bring up names such as Ansari or you bring up names such as al-Hurr al-Aamili or you bring up names such as Khoi and others. A lot of the names of these personalities are names which originate from an environment where even the idea of eating in the same restaurant as a mixed party is sometimes frowned upon. Like when you go to certain parts of Iraq, for example, until today, go to certain parts of Iraq. Then they'll happily have a section which is family only and you'd hardly find a section where in parts of Najaf, let's say, which is tend to be seen as being more conservative as it's the home of where many of these laws are made, many of the scholars live. It is very much frowned upon that there'll be girls and guys who are, for example, mahram to each other all sitting and having, for example, some pizza together. Now, when we're looking at that, therefore, you find in the mid-90s, the community of the followers of Ahl al-Bayt living in the West begun to ask certain questions. The I, for example, when I'm living in the West, I face situations where I'm in a mixed environment. What's my responsibility? What am I right? How about, for example, if I'm in the environment of the mosque, say, for example, I'm in 1996, a set of questions were asked to Ayatollah Sistani, may Allah lengthen his life. InshaAllah. These questions which were asked were questions concerning what is allowed and what's not allowed in terms of mixing in relation to our mosques. When we, for example, allow the teenagers in our mosques to all mix and mix in which way the classic traditional style was always that there'll be a lecture given. The men are on one side, the ladies are on another. Is there any possibility that we can move towards a direction which seemingly other schools and she as a may have moved towards such as the Ismaili school? The Ismailis, it's very normal for the men and the woman to have events where they are discussing a pertinent religious, theological, legal matter or historical and their men and women are sitting in the same hall and was there something that could happen? And so in the mid 90s, you begin to see not only Ayatollah Sistani addressing these issues but also recognizing there had to be, and I say it literally because that's the title of the book. A Code of Practice for Muslims in the West. Right. It says if, okay, if the customs of Najaf and Qom are customs which are related to not allowing that mixing because of the conservativeness of some of the groups or some of the leadership there, how about those who are living in London, those who are living in New York, those who are living in Sydney? Absolutely. And so it's not like Najaf hasn't been willing to address this issue but we're finding that there are many situations living in the West where there are mixed gatherings going to occur. I go to a shopping center, these mixed gatherings are going to occur for example. If I go to the beach, let's say I'm living for example in California or Miami, mixed gatherings are going to occur. When I go to the gym for example, mixed gatherings are going to occur. So these questions suddenly begun to arise. And I think that's the beauty of contemporary legal discussion. Like you said, if Islam's dynamic, is it ready to find within its framework, are the jurists ready to find within the framework a recognition that the customs of one particular area, the orph of one particular area, is not necessarily the orph of another. Should orph be one? Is there recognition at a certain time the way you dress even changed? The way you put a beard and a moustache did it resemble other communities even changed? And likewise when it came to mixing, what was seen as appropriate, what was not? Right, right. Alhamdulillah. There's a particular ayat in the Holy Qur'an, chapter 49 verse 13. And I'm just paraphrasing, O mankind indeed we have created you from male and female, from peoples differing tribes that you may know one another. Now the stereotype of that ayat often is quoted as having good aqalaq and perhaps you know going towards marriage. But really it should be broader than that, should it not? I mean in terms of for example mixing in a halal environment, you've already mentioned about here we're living in the West, how does it work for us? How can we accommodate certain things? So for example let me go straight into for example a marriage. What happens for example if one is invited to a secular marriage, a mixed marriage where there is a number of people who are interacting mingling, how does one react to that? Should one go? Who is religious? Should one not go? Should one refrain? What sort of respect should be given as it were? Well I don't have an issue with those people who come from other religions and have their practices when it comes to weddings, there's no issue with that. But I think the main point is that if I'm going to go to that gathering and I've been to for example a wedding of a let's say of a non-Muslim friend, it's not obligatory on me to go, but if I am going to attend in many cases you'll find either the friend will appreciate your coming and will recognize that for example on your table in that gathering you may not necessarily be in a position which allows that alcohol is on the table. They respect that. But then there's going to come other issues, the other issues that may arise maybe for example that the mixing in that environment may lead to frivolity, may lead to lustful actions, people starting dancing with one another and that's where Islam draws this line that yes we created you from male and female, from different races and from different tribes in order that you get to know one another. We don't want you to be strangers from one another, we don't want you to be in a situation where you never speak to each other, but we want you to be the most upright moral individual. You should be an exemplar in which sense an exemplar that you don't mingle with the same or the opposite gender in a way which becomes seen as being far from ethical. How you draw that line becomes extremely delicate. How do I maintain that line? Because if you're going to look for example in the examples in the Qur'an and the examples in the history of the Ahlul Bayt, you'll find that there are instances where prophets for example are in a situation where they are with those who are not related to them necessarily. God then happens, how much do they interact? They don't say that we can't speak to that person, but nor do they go to the other extreme where all of a sudden our God is completely like that. Okay so has the Holy Qur'an alluded to the fact that there has been some sort of mixing or integration? Is there a particular ayat? Well I think if you're looking in the Holy Qur'an you'll find in the story of Nabi Musa A.S., Prophet Moses with the daughters of Shuaib and I think that particular incident in the Holy Qur'an is vital for us to understand Moses is wondering, wondering literally and wondering metaphorically. Wondering literally trying to find where he's heading in his life and wondering metaphorically at the same time in the sense that he's seeing these two ladies and these ladies are not related to him in any way. There's a clear mixing of the men and the woman over here trying to get some water and Moses notices that these ladies have been waiting patiently to get that water but it seems that no one's telling them ladies first and Moses interjects. When he interjects, he asks them and it shows that Islam doesn't have a problem with the male and female talking. Okay. No issue. Yeah. Okay you're asking someone, you're seeing someone is in a spot of bother and you ask them what's the situation here and they reply by saying that you know we're trying to get this water as you see in the narrations, we're trying to get this water, our father's an elderly man but it seems that nobody's offering them the chance to get that water. And he's been showing chivalry as it were. Yeah as in the chivalry being a composite of these moral virtues are coming together where he recognises that I can help them, there's no issue in me helping them and he helps them by getting this water for them and also walking alongside them as their heading home. Now what's interesting is that he doesn't necessarily want to mingle with them the whole way home. Okay. He recognises that yes we can have conversation, there's no harm but we'll also for example draw a line in the mixing that we have between us that we have to maintain our ethical responsibility and so some narrations even say that he would have said to them for them to point the direction as to how to get home that some narrations even say that he would have told them throw pebbles towards the direction, I'll see where the pebbles are heading. Right. So what he's doing here is he's showing a balance in the recognition of the mixed gathering. Hallelujah. I'm not saying don't talk to somebody in the community but don't abuse that verse that's telling you to get to know one another. Now it's very interesting when they go home and tell their dad about Moses' behaviour the first things that they recognise was not just that he was strong enough to get the water for them but he was also someone who was extremely trustworthy. Right. Amin. Okay. So they describe him by telling their dad that he should employ him because the person you're going to employ is not just a man of great physique in terms of strength but is also a man who was trustworthy. A man who's got these two ladies with him on a journey. He could have abused his position or he could have been extremely rude and not even spoken to us. Right. Right. And I think that's where we're trying to find this balance that can we have gatherings in our communities where neither is a case of oh I put my head down I cannot speak to your sister because if I look you in the eye that's going to be the end of my life and I will be forever in the world of lust nor the other extreme where I've literally just turned up to this gathering just to see how many numbers I can get. Let's face the facts. Absolutely. You know I know that everybody wants to try and say that well you know if it's a mixed gathering not everybody is going to have perverted thoughts you know there are possibilities that a person can let themselves down and there are other possibilities that there are people who are willing to entertain enjoying you know such moves because you're in that environment in some cases when you're giving me the example let's say of our weddings which we're going to come to shortly you're in that environment that environment is listen you know we're dressed in a certain way you're dressed in a certain way don't just come and tell me how's the weather you know just be able to elaborate a bit further So what they're telling their dad which eventually leads to the marriage okay taking place between Nabi Musa alayhi salam and Shuaib's daughters is that they're telling their dad that this person in terms of his moral conduct although he was mixing with those who are not necessarily mahram to him but he maintained wonderful respect this whole time. And I think that is a wonderful example Quranically. Absolutely that level of decorum, akhlaq you know is obviously one that we should obviously look for. How about if for example we have mosques that clearly partitioned okay so men sitting on one side women are sitting on the other what does one say if for example women sisters are in hijab can it can there be integration can they sit in the same hall and so and so but we've all already spoken about you know for example classrooms men on one side women on the other side we attend universities here how can we sort of bring it all together as a war if we are to say that is dynamic and that also actually relates further on into for example tournaments and sporting events well when you're looking for example at the period of Hajj that's the example most people give that since you know the beginning of the act of going to Hajj as we know the holy prophet Muhammad peace be upon his family went to one Hajj and he said that one Hajj is an example for all of us when you went on that one Hajj no did not tell us that the men and the women for example cannot go on tawaaf together right and then you have the imams of Ahlul Bayt and until today when we go on Hajj you've got the men and the women clearly going around the Kaaba seven times there is no partition for the men no partition for the woman no and in many cases when you're in that tawaaf and Hajj you find out that women are definitely stronger than men now what happens there is that people begin to ask okay if in the holiest house and I think it's a good argument I do as well if it's in the holiest house in the religion of Islam yes and you've got this situation where the lord does not have a problem with men and women observing hijab meaning social and physical yes don't get me wrong you can get perverts of course absolutely at Hajj yeah and we've seen some very sad cases right where you know even near what is seen as the symbol of God's house you have some of the most perverted individuals but people will then ask the question what are the principles that you can gain from this and the principles that you're clearly gaining is that if there is a mosque like you're taking the example of Mejr al-Haram if there is this mosque this mosque hijab is being observed by the men and the women you know this whole social hijab and mixed gatherings men have as much of a role to play as the woman clearly and if that's being observed then that can be taken on to other mosques so in 1996 over 22 years ago Ayatollah Sistani was asked this question that we have a current method in relation to lectures but how about if for example in our mosques we were to have seminars yeah or workshops true or committee meetings would it be problematic for the men and the women to be sitting in the same hall not with a partition but hijab is being observed yeah now majalis wise seems to always be problematic so when you've got this person giving the lecture and you've got for example the gents and the lady side sometimes it's problematic because of logistics can you fit in all the men all the women all in that in that particular hall logistically sometimes it's problematic yes yes sometimes you may find even some woman who might turn around and say that i don't necessarily want to be on the men's side because for example in the lady side i want to take off my scarf or i may have my kids or i may for example feel more relaxed and i feel i'm observing my or sitting yeah or even sitting how i'm sitting comfortably comfortably for example not so formally but we cannot deny that there is also a generation of of teenagers who will also turn around and say well i believe that looking at the speaker face to face has more impact than looking at them on a television that's right all of us being thrown like in some dungeon in the basement while the men sit in the in the nicer hall just with a tv exactly now if we go back to ita las istani when he's asked this question that if we're gonna have for example seminars workshops all of them he replied clearly by saying as long as hijab is being observed then there is no problem for the men and the woman to interact with one another to voice their opinions in front of one another okay no huh that you're able to have that interaction this is a religious workshop right and i wish that sometimes we would think better of our people bit broader as well broader and also give more benefit of the doubt to our people as always as people think negatively about our you know members of our community as if they're all going to be you know hypocritical hypocritical or you know the worst when it comes to these gatherings i personally believe and i've voiced this many times that when we have seminars at our mosques i believe the ladies and the gents sitting side by side listening to the lecturer and then a lovely question and answer session yeah taking place there's no harm whatsoever it's actually more interactive yeah someone might say okay but wait you do that seminar and you've got the ladies and the gents let's say for example sitting with one another when they're leaving the whole discussion changes they're going to start talking about other things i reply by saying is that always problematic when they're leaving and discussing other areas why is it we always look at it negatively why is that that they're only going to discuss things which are always seem to be well look at those two talking for all you know they're talking because there's a problem that that person may be facing there's a difficulty there's an injustice and they need someone support yeah sure now i do agree that if you're looking at the time of the prophet peace be upon his family there would be a situation where he would make sure that one of the genders completely leaves the mosque and then the other one leaves okay rather than both leaving at the same time yeah now that could be a precautionary measure but i think when it comes to our centers even those who don't observe let's say ladies who don't literally wear the head covering yeah when they're coming to the mosque a lot of them show the best respect yes and and therefore i think on that level there shouldn't be an issue with seminars with workshops with our youths and our elders all sitting together in the mosque voicing their opinions on a particular issue because otherwise we're going to end up honestly losing some of our youths absolutely absolutely 100 thank you for that i actually remember my first visit to karbala in 2002 and i remember very fondly going to imam was saying alaihi salam shrine and there wasn't a partition at that time men and women could actually pray just near the dhadi as it were and so it was it was actually wonderful and i don't think there was hypocrisy so in my mind it can work as well as you've mentioned as well now let's move on to for example are there any just so that we can actually throw it out there for the audience especially for sisters in are there any rulings of fatwas around for example women being able to dance amongst themselves what what does islam say about that i mean after all if women also say well i'm in my own environment i'm in my own comfort zone i'm not doing anything wrong it's just us i want to take a job off because obviously the partition what what are the sort of rulings behind that is is that well ita las istani finds it problematic woman dancing in front of woman and men dancing in front of men um some will say well this is a wonderful occasion yeah and therefore you should allow us and they may refer to other scholars you know before ita las istani like ita la al-khoy and others they may refer to their opinions but you'll find that sometimes this can even go overboard yeah sure um when it comes to men dancing in front of men or woman dancing in front of woman now i don't want to be like a party pooper and ruins everyone's weddings or everyone's happy occasions but there are some people who when it comes to a wedding i think it's an excuse in some cases to just let everything out just let yourself go yeah yeah how muslim really doesn't have that situation right or doesn't have that need in reality that they have to let themselves go um some ladies will say well you know what there are no men here so why can't we dance amongst each other but even dancing amongst each other yes i can't remember any tradition from the ladies of ahl al-bayt if we're gonna take them as prime role models i can't remember any of them saying that i'd be delighted if all of you would dance for me or get the dancers here it's fatima tizahra and imam ali's wedding now some will say but i'm just happy for my son he's got married or i'm happy for my daughter and i just want to let myself go a bit and i think that the muslim should always be someone who tries to maintain their morals as much as they can some have even resulted in in playing music in the weddings right the reason they're playing that music is also because it will encourage that dancing yeah and some of that dancing also can reach a level where you know um that behavior is not necessarily representative of the of the teachings of the ahl al-bayt and i don't think we should ever be in a situation where we let ourselves go right there's always needs to be a moral upright you know religiosity is not this thing well i pray i fast i pray i fast praying and fasting is not difficult you've got a fast 30 days in the year and you've got to pray five times a day in some cases like a speed train or the fastest car yeah you don't necessarily have to always be at the top of your spirituality so i think it's in moments like this that a person particularly shows their spirituality yes yes um do they let themselves go well i've seen cases now forget woman dancing in front of woman or men dancing in front of men i've seen cases now where the groom may come to the lady's side of a wedding and he's dancing with his wife and not just dancing may even kiss his wife in front of everybody and i know that there may be non-muslims who watch this and see that there's no issue there but you find that islamically speaking once again there is that chivalry word that you mentioned earlier um and let alone when you see um some in some cultures you'll find the husband and the wife dancing in a way in front of all his friends now let's be very frank about this okay if you don't mind when you two are getting married and your mrs is in her finest in some cases you'll find that there are there are ladies who um will not come to that stage of dancing with their husband in front of their friends and nor will they even show their face on that day to his friends no because they recognize that with all the makeup on and so on it may not be the appropriate appropriate thing but then you'll find that there are some men with the wife the two will be going at it yes dancing with his friends all around yeah watching her move that's right now either she's completely forgotten herself at that moment or she needs to come to the quick realization those guys who are watching you dance in that way we don't look at you as oh you know she's my mate's um wife you know that's amazing no no i can see you grinding i can see your hips moving i can see you're wearing the finest clothing and most figure hugging yes so when i'm seeing you move like that i'm either looking at you in a way where i'm thinking that you know what this way that i'm looking at her she's looking amazing or some will even backbite and may look and say what type of relationship that these two have what type of scarf is being observed and therefore this is something that has to be reassessed true when it has to be reassessed it has to be reassessed in our communities that where is this mixing leading us where my friends can look at my wife grinding on me and i'm not going to use any more words because i'm already in enough trouble using certain language when i speak about certain issues and so you are asking woman dancing in front of woman and men dancing in front of men now it's become a case where you know the groom and the wife all of a sudden the wife is just like listen let's dance in front of everybody exactly i don't care if your mates are looking at me dancing or moving my hips or moving other parts of my body in that way let's just enjoy this yeah yeah therefore those who are calling for the mixed gatherings to happen as we said let them happen in our mosques maintain and observe the etiquette of morality but how is it suddenly transferred into certain gatherings where completely the hijab has gone missing and some of these families who may be involved in the mixing in these weddings and these occasions some of these families are families who will go hajj hajj is always a good tick to have on your cv you know it gives you that feeling of not just religiosity but whatever haram you've done in the year you always feel that you know what i've just cleaned it up yeah and some of these will be very charitable people but with all of that there still needs to be maintained a moral upright absolutely if you're looking within the scholarly discussions that have taken place you'll find that always the scholars are not saying it's haram for a man and a woman to be talking to one another or haram for a man and a woman to for example sit next to one another but there may be certain situations where it can become on the secondary level something forbidden there are traditions where imam alayhi salam talks to the people of iraq that the men and the woman are rubbing you know you're rubbing themselves on each other now rubbing themselves on each other what does that mean that means the mingling has got so much it's too close that you're too close now and i think we have to be careful that when you're having any of these occasions how close are we getting yeah even if you're covered up from head to toe was that enough where you're literally an inch or two away from having that lady and that man literally just all over each other yeah absolutely you know and and by the way that touching does take place let's be very clear about this i think that if we don't want to hide these things but that touching does take place where you're at mixed gathering inadvertently you know you do have a guy who's going to brush and he's not just going to brush your shoulder let's not be around the bush here as well yeah sometimes going to brush across the chest of the girl sometimes the girl may want to come and take a picture with the guy and half her chest is sticking next to him you know and and and so what begins to happen is the laws of social hijab of gone physical yeah they might be covering their hair for example sure and they're covering the rest of their body but then that social hijab is where it becomes problematic right okay thank you for that what about there's a question for you how about if for example someone's cousins getting married and there's a mixed wedding should one go or should one decline and what and naturally it would obviously relate to what sort of wedding it is but let's like you said let's put it out there sometimes the wedding being mixed is not the issue okay say for example you have these tables and people are getting married and you've got tables with your family i think there are secondary issues that emerge from that mixing secondary issues maybe that music begins to be played and that music which is not something which is seen as ethical right that music where people will start getting up and dancing to that music and you know at that moment it's your responsibility to politely decline right politely in the sense that you you know this is not necessarily a gathering that i may be allowed to stay in i've been okay i've been to mixed weddings and not as someone who for example is reciting the nikah or something you know i've been to mixed weddings but there would have to be a moment where i excuse myself for example yeah um because i believe that where it's heading maybe something which islamically is not acceptable right uh but you'll find that with a lot of these mixed weddings even if it's your cousin who's invited you it's not obligatory a to attend one's cousin's wedding it's not the end of the world no uh b there is also no harm in you for example sending a nice gift to your cousin to maintain that salla between that relation but i think further than that if you feel that that gathering can become something immoral then you have to begin to ask yourself whether the obedience to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is first and foremost or maintain in relations with your cousins yes absolutely and it is an easy winner yeah yeah um i'm not going to say that every single mixed wedding that there is out there is necessarily a bad wedding or an immoral wedding i believe that there are certain weddings where there's no music being played which is immoral there's no dancing happening okay there's a nice small talk being given yeah sure by one of the scholars who'll remind the responsibilities the rights the roles of the husband and the wife and the people are having a nice dinner with one another i don't want to say it's black and white yeah where people begin to think that every wedding is immoral if there is mixing yes you know it's not like that i think that there are many families out there who observe hijab in the sense um in that mixed wedding but where the scholars will talk is the precautionary measure why do we need to go down that route of course the precautionary measure is why don't the men sit on one side and the ladies sit on another for example and the ladies can enjoy themselves not only enjoy themselves you know you find some ladies who go out shopping for a wedding um and then when they want to wear what they've bought for example when it's mixed they have to think a million times can i wear this can i wear this can i not wear this is this sticking out is this holding in is this guy looking is that guy looking it's not fair for us guys of course it's much easier but i think then when you have but i think then when you have ladies on one side and guys on the other the ladies can be relaxed yes yes you know and some might get frustrated that well i bought this dress and the only people appreciating are ladies well i could see where you're coming from um that maybe you wanted a few guys to appreciate what you're wearing but don't worry you know appreciation god's appreciation absolutely absolutely we're going to go to a break in the next moment or two and and after the break we'll discuss marriage as well just before that um there's a perception sometimes of people thinking well you know if i go to that wedding the moir lana is going to be sitting there maybe boring and so and so forth and clearly it's to do with the mindset and the culture um but this is quite an important issue because even within families there are you know different levels as it were of spirituality and so and so forth so what can we very briefly mention to the audience and then we'll come back after the break and then talk about marriage and how boys and girls can mix as well is there an environment for them to mix with a view to marriage so and so forth so now what would you just say very briefly about that well i believe this whole wedding thing has been exaggerated you know this whole idea of letting loose and you know we need dancing we need mixing we need to let ourselves go i think it's all exaggerated i don't think it's and we evolve into such understanding sometimes but i don't think in the origin of islam weddings were meant to be um going towards any direction which could lead to immorality in many cases i think the weddings that we hold the people we invite in many cases we look back and we're thinking well wish 90% of those people weren't there and in some cases i wish i hadn't necessarily spent that much money on that occasion um but then certainly i appreciate that there are people who can do this with a moral upright manner um and so you know we don't want to generalize on everyone and even if you do see that there are some family members who may for example say well this is boring if the maulanas are there or if there's no music the guys and girls can't mingle then you know give them benefit of the time give them time don't you know don't attack them too harshly okay okay viewers do call in for your questions the telephone number is 0203515019 once again 0203515019 you can also text or whatsapp your questions 4407939917163 once again 4407939917163 see you again in the next moment or two inshallah salaamu alaikum ozib alhamdu shaykh al jim salaamu alaikum and welcome back to tonight's live show on imam was saying tv where we're discussing the topic of mixed gatherings the law and the cultural clash as it were salaamu alaikum say it now salaamu alaikum to tonight's live show um just going straight into it now um the question has come up is regards to what would be the idea when wedding planning system as it were or format what would you say to that as it were probably try and invite as little guests as possible really um i you know as i said i think even if you're going to have uh you know you're gonna have a wedding there's no harm having a small dinner where your relatives and the bride's relatives for example are together this whole elaboration where you know we all need to get up and dance and so on i just think that these are things which have been introduced that don't need to be there i think you can maintain a moral uprightness with something extremely basic and extremely low key that's not going to deny that there aren't people out there who may have something which is extravagant or elaborate um and have their family amongst them yeah but i think if you are sitting there and you're planning for your wedding you invite a couple of your friends the bride invites a couple of friends you've got the family is there and you've got you know small intimate gathering intimate and also put some spirituality there now some of that spirituality may not be something that is going to make the most exciting scene for you to put on snapchat to tell the whole world that look at us guys we're going nuts over here but what you'll have is when you have for example hadith al-qisa being recited when you have a small talk being given as a reminder when you have the quran being recited and then after that the night ends you know it's further elaboration and going further in terms of making everybody feel like this is an amazing night i don't think necessarily needs to be there and i think we've even seen examples you know i remember when we used to hold lectures in in london you know years back when i used to speak for example on friday nights yeah on some occasions uh we used to have these uh programs in just off edge where road so you know just one second we've got a caller on the line and inshallah we'll work back immediately salam aleikum yes sister your question please um my question is just regarding um about going to the gym for example for women um obviously it is good to be healthy and with day and age and i wanted to know what the safe views are on this because obviously when you go to the gym there is an admin training there so what is his view on that and how you know we can deal with us women who want to go to the gym and there may not be an availability of a ladies only gym once again um i think it applies to men as much as women i think i think sisters ask in this question um that you know what do we do if there isn't a ladies only gym but likewise i think a lot of the problems faced in in the world of the gyms is the men's eyes you know because the gym does allow you to see some of the most stunning bodies in the world and um when you're in there it's very hard to focus on the on the press up and the apparatus and the apparatus and so on and getting those dumbbells and so on because you know you yourself are looking around and you're seeing some of the most beautiful ladies who have looked after themselves so i think for men and for women it's problematic for ladies for example um if if they're able to go to a ladies only gym then that is of course uh very very beneficial for them in terms of the modesty but you'll find that even the Maraj at when it comes to gents going to mix gyms um it is really frowned upon right um unless a person is able to maintain their their lowering of the gaze um extremely difficult okay if you are able to maintain it um or you know there are now great rules because of the me too campaign where in the past you know there are guys who are able to look at um everything that moved and make perverted comments but now with me too you could be in trouble all of a sudden um so maybe it's a helpful era uh but for those ladies who cannot find the ladies only gym the gym is not something which is obligatory within the religious land so it's not uh not something that i have to go to the gym therefore because i will not survive therefore i have to find a gym somewhere no the ladies only gym will be uh what is preferred otherwise you go to the mixed gyms whether you like it or you don't one way or the other it opens the doors and this applies to the men as well if you're looking at it Allah see stan is ruling on this um also for the men as well right these places are very much not recommended if a person knows that they will fall into sin okay okay uh dr silamar you just um briefly just before the phone call you're talking about you know gathering weddings should be you know there shouldn't be a fuss about it there shouldn't be elaboration you know it should be intimate as it were um just going back to that you know so what else should be we what else should be looking for as it were um to have that sort of promotion as it were spirituality in a in a in a nice ethical quiet environment is there anything else that we should be actually looking for maybe you'd be charitable on that day you know um charitable not just maybe being generous when it comes to the food that you're serving but also donate a certain amount to a particular fund or particular trust i'm doing these these aspects are what make your union a spiritual one i was saying about for example the you know when we were lecturing in the iraqi community years back and i i remember we were giving these lectures off eduar road in central london okay and there were some families who started to attack us by saying that we give lectures to youths near a road which is known for maybe some okay immorality right i found it ironic that when an iraqi wedding finished the same people who are attacking us were in cars uh you know beeping the the the horns as you as you do at the end of a wedding ceremony with cars following each other yeah where on eduar road now you're attacking us for having those lectures at eduar road but now you're in these cars girls and guys jumping out of the cars inaction it and the behavior leaves a lot to be desired when you're seeing these guys and girls who are meant to be moral upright people now even laughing and joking with each other in a way where all the boundaries of hijab are gone so some will say but you don't understand if that's not there then we've not had a good night give me a break we don't need these things to have a good night yet you've been desensitized to some of the teachings of the religion and therefore you are told that unless the gatherings allow this to happen then it's going to be something extremely boring otherwise no we don't need to go down that route that route can result in certain acts which are far from islamic right okay just to keep this topic in context as it were and give some more depth can students have events um in university alibate societies in mixed environments yes i think of course they can um and i think it's great for them to have these events and i repeat why it's Allah sistan he had said right from the beginning that is that when you're having these seminars and there is this hijab that's being observed yeah our students are amazing at university our students have done amazing work amazing programs amazing seminars like if i look at for example i i lectured for the king's ahl al-bayt society recently uh at king's college london and and it was a mixed crowd well it's a university crowd you're not the one who's in charge of that setting no you know um so it's a university setting there are students everywhere and they they were fantastic so there is no harm there because you're not going towards organizing something whether it's frivolity or no simple acts you're organizing something which allows people to learn about the religion or to remove the misconceptions yes so um them getting together and working in committees organizing events as long as they're observing their social and physical hijab what's the problem and i hope that they may find their future partners in these events because i think one thing that we're discounting is who will our sons and daughters get married to if they're not allowed to come together when they're organizing these wonderful events so if in our mosques we don't allow these seminars for the the brothers and sisters to come and sit together then who they're going to find out in the community who can they get married to it's in these types of gatherings that they may see someone who's their future partner absolutely and we lost we lost a number of people who may have for example either not got married or got married to somebody who in islamic law it's not necessarily acceptable because they said that we didn't know the guys in our community yeah you know yeah so yes um it's quite an important thing we've got a question um by whatsapp um just to remind viewers again do call in 0203 515 0199 also whatsapp your questions 4407 939917163 asalaamu alaikum say now i know it's not related but my name is hasan khan i am 17 years old first of all i would like to say thank you for inspiring listening to your lectures really inspired me to learn more about islam i am i don't mean to brag really just sheer teen who is being bullied by his family including my mum and dad cousins etc they encourage me to take part in haram acts like relationships and go clubbing they say just to pray i go to the library every day and listen to islamic lectures and try to follow many things alabate alaykum aslam guide us to do including daily lifestyle and i try praying must have prayers sometimes i'm trying to give up my worldly desires i feel stressed because of my family what do you suggest i do in this difficult position well the companions of the prophet peace be upon him and his family face these situations yeah where they may have had family members who were blocking them from going on the path of the religion of islam and this is a period of patience for you don't lash out on your family don't be rude towards them and there will be your time for your independence night but for the time being try and show the best akhla back okay i cannot envy anyone who faces a situation where their family mocks them for getting closer to god and there are people out there who sadly have to face this that their family is actually mocked them by saying you're praying too much you're fasting i know some girls out there who when they wore the hijab their families were like why are you wearing this you look ugly yes yeah take it off yeah maintain your patience in these riots and i have trust in Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and also ask Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala what imam zayn al-abideen asks of him in du'am al-karam al-akhlaq wa abdilni min boghzati ahla shan'an al-mahabba oh Allah changed the hatred of my enemies into love for me you know sometimes we straight away want to condemn them by saying they're evil they're the worst read the du'a that Allah rotates their heart the reason the heart is known as the qalb taqallub it's always ready to rotate khour binyazi the riaq his heart suddenly rotated in one moment whereas there were others whose heart rotated to other directions so try and pray for your family that god guides them and you know there are cases i remember ammar binyasir being a prime example of someone whose family yasir and sumayah were against his conversion to the religion of islam at the beginning and then later on became the first martyrs in the religion right okay shukrin thank you for that just um continuing on the topic of islamic universities um perhaps what are what are the views around boys and girls studying together in libraries is it jays well the guys the guys are there to get the attention of the girl and the girl's there to study yeah yeah yeah so i must admit and maybe you know i'm speaking from someone as as um as conniving as myself but i would say that um when girls and guys are studying at a library the guy in many cases is thinking how can i get the girl's number how can i get in her good books because i'm spending hours listening to what could be her studies also what could be the emotions that she's going through all the problems that she's going through and the girl in many cases is is innocently believing that the guy she's receptive she's thinking oh yeah so you've either got the yeah so you've either got the girls with the nerdy friend yeah who's going to give you all the answers yeah or the friend that you just take with you to the library because you just need a guy there's a shepherd or a good looking cool guys um and islamically speaking look if you guys are all studying at uni together there is nothing which is a stronger voice to your morality and to correct your right and wrong than your own conscience and i can give lectures all day long but when the conscience speaks to you and says listen you and her are studying together it's about three a.m now and you're alone in this library what's the need and in some cases the poor girls thinking to herself you know this guy's such a nice guy stayed with me the whole night and that guy's just thinking other things and um and i think you know you have to maintain the social hijab so islam once again moses spoke to them he didn't say i'm not speaking to you nor did he speak to them non-stop there was a nice balance that he had yes and i think that moses type you know message can be incorporated practically at the universities that sit together in your study groups and if you are studying chemistry 101 maths 101 economics 101 then all cool but if the discussion then suddenly goes that how do you think this top looks yeah um looks on me at the moment then a person has to maybe at that moment begin to reflect that okay where is this now heading can we now some people you listen some people it's just part of conversation and they maintain their respect but others have to reflect yeah sure um just to elaborate we've got another question here as well come through and it's actually one that i was going to ask you before so i may as well put it for you um in terms of further elaborating on the recreational aspects swimming pools as it were and how they how people actually mingle there is it you know what what are the sort of it's problematic you know again again you're looking at the verdicts of the maragia and it's always frowned upon you know being on mixed beaches because look you're going there you want to have a nice swim in the beach when you're looking around you and in many cases you've got some of you know the most beautiful bikini clad woman walking there and it really is difficult to maintain that you know upright morality like we're saying that okay a beach is not an area you can control our weddings maybe we have a bit more control on there but there's a bit more responsibility but you can certainly it's not obligatory for you to be on that beach and if you feel that you're going to end up you know committing acts of corruption and look we've all been there you know i i love going to the beach and i love to be um on the sand but you could be sitting there staring at the water and then all of a sudden you got someone absolutely beautiful walking past and you know they say that the first looks allowed there are many guys that first look is one look which is extended for about one minute because he's thinking have you seen how stunning she looks yes and so i think it's a bit hypocritical then of us when we're talking about mixing that occurs and then we find ourselves on beaches where even though you may not end up going to you know necessarily talk to that person who's not mahram to you yeah being there could lead you to that likewise with swimming pools true you'll find that sometimes someone might show me a verdict which says as long as you know that you're not going to fall into corruption when you're going to the pool and i think many pools that you'll go to you're not going to fall into corruption you know you may be a member of a prestigious health club and everyone's really minding their own business but i think there are certain cases where you may go to a pool in a certain resort where you look around you and you're wondering how the hell am i going to maintain my focus over here and then when that happens you have to begin to really reassess your own hijab okay now there's quite a few questions actually here now salam i have a question for the live show if people if people mix gathering well i'm reading it again if people mix in a gathering with cousins of which some are married and some are unmarried and younger they play board games and have discussions together as families do what is the ruling on this and also wearing burkinis in front of cousins or any men as it as it shows a body shape what is the ruling on this so there's two parts well burkini in front of cousin in front of man man while god you know gifted him what he gifted him i don't care if it's burkini or not you're still looking at the shape of that body in some cases inside you may be thinking you know what she looks amazing but i'm not going to say it and in other cases you may end up saying it and in other cases it may lead you to even saying more than that so wearing that burkini because you want to have a swim then you're going to go and sit with your husband's mates or your brother's mates wearing that burkini and you've just come out of that water all wet i don't know i just be realistic i don't know where two guys sitting here and i'm a guy who gets in a lot of trouble anyway but i just i'm just going to be very frank like you know in such cases you're still looking at the person and the shape of their body and so on and mind you there are even people within the muslim communities husband wife husband wife husband wife all sitting on a by the hall as couples yes as couples even with burkinis on forget burkini bikini bikini and sometimes the men are the ones who are telling the wives that look you have to observe hijab and he's sitting there not wearing a top in front of his in front of his wife's friends yeah um so already that mixed gathering has been destructive you know now in terms of cousins i tell you once again it depends on backgrounds you know if you're looking for example at some cultures the lebanese for example it's extremely normal okay extremely normal for mixing to happen where you know um men women sitting laughing cigarettes the sheeshas in the hands and in many cases there's no lustful or frivolous or bad intention right they all sitting there really really they find it so normal right it's unbelievable okay you know like you can have the most stunning girl walk in and the guys like well you know what she's just like my sister burks whereas you'll find that there's other cultures where it just reaches a stage i i know for example even when you look at some of my iranian friends okay they were able to mix with one another and they're like she's my friend or she's just my friend or she's just my friend and it just became a normal case that 20 30 on can just sit there with no lustful intention where it was just the case of oh you don't understand she's not my friend yeah but bro so you're not one bit attracted to no i just see her like my younger sister what younger sister yeah as in look look look what she's wet so there are certain cultures where they're mixing even made them immune yeah from feeling anything they've become desensitized desensitized totally i don't think an arahi can ever be desensitized by the way right and i'm not speaking the experience although the cameraman is laughing right now but i don't think i don't think an arahi can ever be desensitized i think like we were just born to be protective good word good word good word i think i need to you know take from your wisdom when it comes to language but you know there are some cultures which baffle me really absolutely baffle me where they find it normal to mix and and it's as if there's no lustful intention whatsoever now five guys sitting there five girls sitting there some who don't necessarily wear what is seen as the classic hijab but they are lovers of a little bit and so on and the guy you know is just sitting there very normally as if not affected one bit yeah amazing okay next question um should you visit the home of family members where they do not observe social hijab instead find it acceptable to be touchy we have a friend of us we call him hug she hug she okay because he will literally hug everything that moves and he will say she's like my sister i'm like bro everybody's your sister is that what you don't understand every single person is a sister now if you're going to a cousin's house and you know some non-muslim viewers may look at this and think what are these low on yeah like you know are you serious this is your cousin the muslim non-muslim viewers don't understand the muslim muslims can marry absolutely anything that moves except for you know what is what is commonly known and and so even if you have a family member's house or you go to who you don't say she's my cousin and she wants to come and hug me there is no problem and actually it's her duty on you to say no yeah okay and once you've said no politely then it's not to be repeated again now someone might say well i have my uncle's wife now we know uncle's wife still cannot touch you no someone might say i've got my uncle's wife and she is now 68 years old and she wants to come and hug me even the iraq is allowed to hug that one and what i mean by that is they're past they're past the time of hijab at this stage you know it's a bit more yeah yeah um i would hope okay next question salam hussein zadeh from north london is it permissible for a she and muslim girl to wear a dress to mix gathering and what dress codes apply to both she and men and women who are attending mix gathering thank you well she she couldn't wear whatever you know she she can decide to wear something right um but if she really thinks that the guys aren't checking out what she's wearing it's very hard to wear something in a mix gathering which is probah hijab unless you're wearing the you know unless you're wearing something loose fitting or you know the abaya that they wear in the emirates for example which is always looking classy wherever it is very elegant very elegant subhanallah how something you'd think which covers everything ends up to be in some cases the most elegant um but yeah she couldn't wear something and there are many who go to these mixed weddings and they're wearing a hijab but you know they're trying on their hardest to cover their backside and trying their hardest to cover their chest area and they're trying to wear something and that doesn't do the job i i don't know yeah i think from from my um understanding some people um find certain laws difficult to follow let's be honest and they choose they pick and choose what they want to follow interesting interesting and also based on you know the feeling of my money it is it's clean and therefore i'm not doing anything i'm just sitting there observing and do you know who i respect the most i have a lot of respect for those who are wearing hijab from our sisters who are part of a family structure that doesn't wear at all yeah yeah because i feel sorry for them because every single photo they literally in some cases are the only ones who are wearing yes yes and for them to maintain that you know wearing that while the rest of the family has no interest yeah you gotta give them a lot of respect you know i can sit here and say well you shouldn't be mixing and you mixing could end up um you know uh taking you to something which is not moral them being part of a family where everybody just in some cases mocks you if you're wearing a scarf or just tells you blatantly i'm never gonna wear yeah sure for a sister or a sister in law someone to wear okay that is phenomenal okay we've got to stand there five minutes salam sayed what are your recommendations on a woman on women reciting procedures praising the aimah in a respectable mixgavin good question there do it do it yeah i'm all for it okay yeah i'm all for it i think in many cases this is culture right that stops our sisters from giving lectures to men or from reciting qasidahs in front of men look there's a problem if someone's reciting in a in a melodious voice something with frivolous or sinful words and so forth or words which lead to sin but in terms of um a qasidah or a noha matthiya um in a matem for ahlul bayt alayhim salam for example um there's no harm right and we should have a lot more who are reciting and we should be praising them a lot inshallah sayed how about texting the opposite genders on social media who is not related or even if they are cousins however the chat becomes full of jokes yeah i think i think it's a fine line fine it certainly is because you're having that banter um with one another but i think there are some who are mature enough to make it clear um when to draw a line um but always one has to be beware it doesn't matter how religious you look you can always be somebody who's affected by such things okay you ask Allah swt to help you okay aslamu alaykum i'm engaged and i'm wondering if i'm allowed to hang out or go on a date with my fiancée if you are doing mat'ah with one another or there is an recited then you can otherwise you can't right okay so that's the answer there um i think perhaps we got just a couple of minutes and i just perhaps would like you to summarize what where we should be actually heading towards and maybe maybe we should extend this topic again inshallah yeah i think mosques wise i'm a big advocate that we have more seminars tutorials workshops where brothers and sisters interact because i think there is so much to benefit from the sisters in our community who in many cases we do not hear their voices okay i think weddings wise i think some of us just have to take a little step back and begin to ask ourselves if i was to look at the video of my behavior is that something morally upright okay we've got just time for one question and then we'll immediately end uh saying after aslamu alaykum dr nakshwani thank you for the work you do i have a question my potential spouse has a problem he is overly friendly with females at his educational setting he has great desire to be polygamous but the reason he isn't is because in our contract he can only be with myself what advice do you have for me as a female how do i deal with him when he can't help but free mix must i allow him to do moda so it's halal for him to behave like this or is it my right to expect him to be loyal plus lower his gaze how should he deal with this problem of great sexual great desire sexually chican i think that's a very sensitive moment in the relationship and i think you've got to make it clear to your husband right either there is a change of ways or the relationship ends okay um and if the husband is not willing to change their ways and they expect that the wife is just a cook a cleaner someone who just picks up the kids then that wife is with the wrong person right um in the same way that you married this girl because you are going to look after her and you're going to protect her otherwise she wasn't a very good home and she could have been with someone who would have loved her and doted over her and so on if you're seeing that he's adamant that you know what um this is my right and you're going to have to accept it then it's up to you now yeah either you turn around and you walk away or you figure out where the both of you are heading and if that's the husband's philosophy you cannot later on say well i never knew at the end of the day you've got the ability now to communicate yeah it's either going to head one way or the other you're responsible for your own choices as you were yeah and i think that there are some who are in marriages because they fear what could happen if they leave the marriage but you can't be saying well i don't want you to do this but i want to stick with you in marriage look if the person is like that you need to make a decision quickly because you're going to end up harming yourself and in turn ruining a relationship or causing the end of relationship which you really want the cause of but because of the effects of the behaviors you turn out to be the bad one yeah um so i think you know be rational on this issue and make it clear to the guy that listen you want to stay with me then it's not a lifestyle for you to be sleeping with everybody while you're married to me okay thank you very much indeed dr. siala manak shawani thank you um viewers we've run out of time so inshallah we'll join us again next week from dr. siala manak shawani myself Muhammad Ali see you again inshallah assalamu alaikum