 Hello and good evening. Apologies for the delay. Thank you for staying with us. My name is Fabio Gigi, I'm the chair of the Japan Research Center here at SOAS and it is exactly two years ago since we hosted Professor Yasuko Kameyama here for a talk. It was a big SOAS-wide meeting in preparation of the COP26, if you remember that event in Glasgow. And it was very eye-opening in many ways because we brought together many different experts from all over the world and one of the points that she really brought home was that because there is quite a lot of annual fluctuation in terms of typhoons, in terms of rainfall, in terms of flooding in Japan, she said people don't really make the link to climate change at all. So it doesn't really feature in the press, it doesn't really feature in popular discourse all that much. But that was two years ago and now two years later we find ourselves in a very different context. If you've been to Japan this year, you have noticed there was hardly any rainy season at all. Water levels are dangerously low and I've just come back 10 days, roughly two weeks ago, and it was 35 degrees in Tokyo at the end of September. So there's clearly something happening that we need to take account of. Now our speaker tonight is uniquely placed to respond to all of your questions. Mr Nami Hirose received his BA in sociology from Hidotsubashi University in 1976 and his MBA from Yale School of Management in 1983. And he has left his mark on the energy sector in Japan where he worked for 40 years at the Tokyo Electric Power Company, TEPCO. Now immediately after the 311 Fukushima accident, Mr Hidose dedicated himself to create the system for nuclear damage compensation. After becoming president and CEO in 2012, he led the company in addressing a number of highly complex issues such as water management and decommissioning plans for the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station, compensation for those who were affected by the accident and the revitalization of Fukushima, and of course keeping TEPCO competitive while facing the deregulation of Japan's electricity and gas market. He left TEPCO in 2021 and currently serves as the chair of the Japan Energy Association, a member of the World Energy Council, and also he has been appointed in 2022 as the vice chair of the World Energy Council, who as an organization has just in 2023, it was the 100th anniversary, it was founded in 1923 and is a UN accredited non-governmental body that is sort of meeting regularly to discuss the world state of the energy sector. So tonight we'll follow a traditional academic format with the lecture first and ample opportunity to comment and ask questions afterwards. Thank you also for those who are joining us online who have stuck with us through the technical difficulties, please put your questions into the queue and day. The talk tonight bears the title Green Transformation in Japan and Future Policies Against Climate Change in the Energy Sector. Now please join me in welcoming Mr Naomi Hidose to the JRC. Well thank you Fabio for your kind introduction. Good afternoon, good evening everybody, my name is Naomi Hidose. As Fabio introduced me, I just became vice chair of the World Energy Council, which is based in London. That's why I'm here to participate in one of the World Energy Council's official meeting the day before yesterday. As Fabio explained, the TEPCO had a very very severe nuclear accident in Fukushima back in 2011. The impact of the accident was very very large, not only in Japan but also in the rest of the world. And some countries stopped nuclear operation after the accident. And consequently my last 10 years of my career at TEPCO were very very difficult in terms of the management of the company. But also at the same time I have learned a lot from the accident and then I have experienced a lot since the accident. So I think I started believing that it is my responsibility to share these lessons and then experiences with as many people as possible in the world, not only people in the nuclear sector but also all the people. And so in that sense it is my great pleasure and an honor to be here at SOAST tonight. And so I would like to explain first the current situation and then how Japanese government is trying to do. And then I would like to evaluate the Japanese policy plan. And then lastly I'd like to explain what I would do, how I would cope with the very difficult problems such as global warming, energy transition, those things. So let me start with a brief explanation of the current situation of energy, particularly electric generation in Japan. This is a historical power generation mixture by sources. The accident happened in 2011. So before that the nuclear generation accounted for about one third of the Japanese power generation. And maybe LNG thermal power generation is one third and 15-20% from coal thermal power generation and few percent from oil thermal power station power generation. And the bottom is hydroelectric power generation, which is a feature account for maybe 8% or less than 10%. So I would say that before the accident the generation mixture of Japan was relatively good because in terms of the diversification of the energy resources. But after the accident we stopped all the nuclear power plants. So the mixture changed dramatically after 2011. But still people use electric power. So somebody, something had to be at least the vacancy of the nuclear power generation. And the only way to do that was thermal power station. So we still depend on almost 80-90% of Japan's power generation on thermal power station, thermal power generation. But as you know, Japan doesn't have any indigenous natural resources such as coal, gas or oil. So all the fuel for the thermal power station has to be imported from abroad. So Japan's self-energy efficiency ratio is currently now 10% or 11%, which is very, very vulnerable in terms of energy security. By the way, this figure 11% is the second from the bottom among OECD nations. OECD nations are developed countries. I think there are 38 countries now in OECD. So Japan is second from the bottom. And by the way, the least self-sufficient country in OECD nations is Luxembourg. So Luxembourg is a part of the European continent. I bet there are a lot of power line connections or pipelines to the neighboring countries. But Japan is Ireland. We do not have any power line or any pipeline connection to the neighboring countries. So 11% of the self-sufficiency ratio is very, very dangerous. And let's look at CO2 emissions. Because we stopped nuclear power generation and replaced it by thermal power generation, the CO2 emissions inevitably increased very much. This slide illustrates the CO2 emissions from power generation only, not all the CO2 emissions from Japan. This is just from the power generation in Japan. As you see that from 2010 to 2011, 2012, it jumped up because we started using thermal power generation a lot. And then the yellow line shows that the unit CO2 emissions for every one kilowatt hour generated. And our goal before the accident was 0.37. But now it's 0.4 or 0.5, something like that. It's not a very, very good situation in terms of the CO2 reduction or in terms of the energy security. And so please keep this current situation in your mind. Then under these conditions, Japanese government declared to realize need zero society by 2050. This is not my intention, sorry. And then as an interim target, we are going to reduce CO2 emission by 46% by 2030. And currently, Japan's CO2 emission totally is about 1 billion tons. So this is our goal. In order to realize this very lofty goal, Japanese government just issued a policy plan for green transformation. And lower side is electric generation sector. Upper side is no electric speed. And then lower side says that we are going to expand renewable generation as much as possible and then position it as the main source of power generation. And then we start nuclear power and reduce the thermal power generation. And also we are going to use a more hydrogen, ammonia. And then a non-electric sector energy savings. And then also we are going to build hydrogen society. And in the longer range, we maximize the renewable power and next generation of the nuclear power and hydrogen, ammonia, and the CCUS as carbon capture usage and then storage and carbon recycle. And then electrification and hydrogen, ammonia and VIX. DAX is direct air capture of the carbon usage. And VIX is a bio energy carbon capture and storage. So those are the new technologies. We are going to develop these technologies and by doing so, we are going to realize natural society by 2050. But this is a policy plan written by Japanese bureaucrats. So it's not very quantitative. There aren't many numbers. Very, very policy-oriented things. I would say among these policies listed here, the most difficult task for Japan is that expansion of the renewable power and then position it as a main source of power generation. Because now the proportion of the renewable generation is about 20%. And among them, 8% is hydroelectric power. And then 12% is mostly from solar power and some from wind power. But as you see before, this is this is hydroelectric. As you see that it stays the same. It means that there aren't many possible places to develop hydro power anymore. So it means that we have to develop solar power or wind power, maybe geothermal or something. But solar power has been increased very, very much. You see a lot of solar panels on the roof of the houses now. But again, there aren't many possible sites because Japan is a mountainous country. There aren't many land. So it's not easy to expand solar power generation very, very much so that people expect wind power very much now. And particularly the Japanese surrounded by the oceans are a lot of hopes for offshore wind power. But Japanese seabed surrounded Japan, not like European and no sea or Baltic sea. Japan's seabed is very deep, very steep and then deep. So it's really difficult to build basement of the solar, I mean, wind power. So now we are trying to install floating offshore wind power, floating. But again, it's not easy to develop. First of all, it's very difficult to construct basement of the floating solar power, I mean, floating wind power. And then maintenance of that is also very, very difficult. So I would say that because of the Japanese government, you know, trying to develop renewable power very, very much. And then it should be, but it's not that easy. And then also the other difficult part is, part is hydrogen. As you know, hydrogen is a product. It's not natural resources. Even if you dig a hole, you wouldn't see that hydrogen comes out. So we have to produce hydrogen. So it's, you know, the green hydrogen, there are several different hydrogen, green hydrogen or pink hydrogen, which is produced by nuclear power. And then gray hydrogen is produced by fossil fuel. And then Japan, if Japan sticks to green hydrogen, it should be, you know, as a green hydrogen has to be generated created by green electric power, such as solar, wind or nuclear. And then as I said, that the expansion of renewable power is not easy. So it's very difficult to create, to produce a green hydrogen in Japan. So probably the realistic way to have a green hydrogen in Japan is import green hydrogen from maybe Australia or Middle East, where that a lot of desert vacant lands, so they could, they could put, they could install as many as possible the solar panels and then generate electricity there and then use produce hydrogen, green hydrogen there and then ship it to Japan. It's possible, although it's very costly. And then if we do that, if we import green hydrogen from foreign country, that wouldn't improve energy sufficiency of Japan. It's just a mere replacement of the LNG or coal or oil. So, so I would say this policy plan is very ambitious, but it's very challenging. So let me, let me explain what I would do. I have a many opportunity to participate in an international conference on global warming or energy transition or, and where I often feel that many of the participants tend to focus on supply side issue, supply side initiatives, such as when to stop coal fired thermal power station, how to increase renewable power, how to create hydrogen supply chain and such. But I say, I think that the demand side initiative are also very, very important to, to, to, you know, to, first of all, to have the efficient economy. Let me explain how to do that. This is a, this is a very sketchy illustration, but it says that CO2 emissions can be calculated by GDP times energy efficiency times carbon intensity. When we, when we are active, we consume some energy. And when energy is consumed, CO2 is generated, usually. So in order to have a need zero CO2 emission, we should not engage in any activities. Right. But it can be possible. So in order to reduce CO2 emissions, we have to, as this equation clearly shows, we have to improve energy efficiency and reduce carbon intensity while maintaining economic growth. So let me explain how to improve energy efficiency. I would say that the, the first, the way, easiest way to, to, to, to improve energy efficiency is electrification. Make, try to make everything by electric power. For example, if you convert your petrol engine automobile to electric vehicle, you, the total energy consumption will decrease to one half or even to one third because the electric motor will rotate turns the wheels much, much more efficiently than internal combustion engine. The other way is stop burning fossil fuel and then use heat pump system for the heating or cooling or hot water supply. And because the electric heat pump system is so efficient that you could reduce the energy consumption very much. And by doing these things for the promotion of electricity on demand side, on the supply side, we had to, we have to generate increased amount of energy, electric power consumption due to electrification with non-fossil fuels such as solar power, green power and nuclear power. Okay. By the way, we, we are, you know, we are using electric power very much in our daily lives. Right. Do you know how much we depend on electric power? 85% maybe half something like that. Okay. In, in case of Japan, left-hand side, this is the energy, total energy consumption of Japan. 12, we only dependent, depend on electric power, 26%. And the rest of the, more than 70% is a direct combustion of the fossil fuel like gasoline or oil or no coal. Is that surprising? Because we feel that our lives can be nothing without electricity, but the only dependent on 26% on electric power. But this number, 26, is relatively high in the world. For example, in the UK, this is about 20%. In the US, it's similar. And so the fact that Japan depends on only 26% on, on electric power means that there is a lot of room for the further electrification. Right. Okay. And let me, let me explain the very, very hypothetical optimistic scenario with maximum electrification. Everything can be done is electrified. So all the electric, all the vehicles should be electric vehicle. And then all the houses and then buildings are all electrified. And under that scenario, by 2050, electric portion will go up from 26% to 70% if that's happened. But I want you to draw your attention to is the total amount of energy consumption. A, you see the lot of reduction. It's like magic trick. No, the more you use electric power, of course, the electric power consumption itself goes up because we use electric power. But the total energy consumption will be almost half. Yes. So electrification will reduce energy consumption very much. And then at the same time, if we generate this increased amount of electric consumption with non fossil fuels such as solar, wind, and nuclear as much as possible, the amount of CO2 emission will reduce by 80%. Of course, this is very hypothetical, you know, optimistic scenario. It's very difficult to convert all the houses or all the buildings to all electrified and then all of your vehicle to electric vehicles. But I'm sure that you understand the potential of this electrification would provide in terms of the CO2 reduction or reduction of the energy consumption. So I would say that the best way and then this is a key to reduce energy consumption and then reduce CO2 emission is electrification on demand side. At the same time, decarbonization of supply side. I think this is the answer. So let me explain now the potential of the energy saving and then CO2 emissions in both UK and Japan with some numbers. This is the CO2 emissions from transportation. Take a look at the pie chart left hand side. This red one, 17.4% of CO2 emissions comes from transportation sector in Japan. And 80% of which comes from old mobile of that there are various kinds of old mobiles but the old mobiles including passenger car or heavy utility cars or buses or something. So the total if we could convert all the vehicles to electric vehicle, the potential of the CO2 reduction is very, very large in Japan. Now take a look at UK similar but the proportion of the UK, 31.7% comes from transportation sector and 90% of which comes from auto model of some kinds. So this is a big potential. Let me compare the electric vehicles and then conventional petrol engine vehicle. You know, right hand side Honda Fit is a very, very fuel efficient compact car. It lands 16 km per liter of gasoline. On the other hand, the compatible size of the electric vehicle is the Honda E. It lands 5.5 km for every one kilowatt consumption. But let's compare the energy consumption of two cars. Fit consumes 2082 kJ for every one kilometer driven but Honda E consumes 659 kJ for every one kilometer driven. It's three times. This is a big difference. Fit is very, very efficient car but still if you convert it to the small electric vehicle you could save a lot of energy and then you could reduce a lot of CO2 emissions. So next thing is heat demand. In UK, 47.2% of the total energy is for heat. And in Japan, it's similar. 50.7% of the total energy consumption is for heat producing. Heat demand where I mean is energy which is used for heating, maybe cooking and hot water supply, cooling and those are the household or buildings. But in the industry, in factories, heat demand is for steam or high temperature process like molding or those things. And that kind of demand accounts for almost half of the total energy consumption in both countries. It's a very, very large portion is for heat. And I don't know that the figure in UK but in Japan, 39.3% of the heat demand is the heat temperature is less than 200 degrees Celsius. And because of the heat pump system, I can produce heat very, very efficiently. And then conventional electric heater is not good at producing high temperature heat. You know, electric heater is not just energy efficient. But recently, technology of the heat pumps has advanced very much. And now the heat with the temperature less than 200 degrees Celsius can be produced with heat pump system, much more efficiently than combustion of burning fuels, I call it a gas. By the way, do you know heat pump system mechanism, heat pump system? No, yes. That's why I prepared. Heat pump system is as it's called pump up the heat in the air. The heat exists in the air no matter how cold it is. And then take it out and then bring it to inside the room and then release it. That's a heat pump system. But heat pump systems utilize two major characteristics of the heat. One is heat moves from hotter place to colder place. So if two things put together, this is very hot. This is not cold. The heat moves from hotter place to lower place. And then eventually the temperature of those two would be equal. So this is going to be colder and then this is going to be hotter. And the other characteristics is when you pressurize the air, the temperature of the air goes up. And then if you depressurize the air, the temperature goes down. This is using these two characteristics of the heat. Heat pump, first of all, observes the heat in the outside into the refrigerant. And then so the refrigerant gets a little bit warmer because it absorbs the heat from the outside. Then pressurized by compressor so that the refrigerant temperature of the refrigerant goes up, getting very hot. Then release that heat inside the room so that the refrigerant temperature of the refrigerant goes down because they release the heat. Then a little bit cooler refrigerant goes through the expansion valve and depressurize. And then the temperature of the refrigerant goes down further. So here the temperature of the refrigerant is very cold, colder than the air. So that the heat in the air will move from here to the refrigerant. Just repeat this cycle. And this illustration shows that when we heat up the room. But if you would like to cool air condition inside, just rotate opposite way. Take the heat out of from the room and then release it in outside so that the room temperature goes down. This is a heat pump system. And then heat pump system, the performance of the heat pump system is expressed in terms of COP, a coefficient of performance. In this heat pump, they will, this will take six heat, six energy from outside. And only part that energy is consumed is compressor using electric power and produce seven heat into the room. So the efficiency is seven hundred percent, seven times. Isn't that amazing? If you burn whatever the fossil fuel, gas or coal or oil, no matter how efficient that heating system is, you wouldn't get more than hundred percent of heat, right? But this is a kind of magical equipment which, you know, produce more. And so this case, this heat pump is COP seven. Isn't that amazing? So using this heat pump could realize that a lot of the reduction of energy and then also CO2 emissions. And the heat pump system is beginning to attract a lot of attention, particularly in Europe. In 2007, the EU directive certified heat pump system is renewable energy because they use the heat from the air, natural resources. And because of the last year, the Russian invasion of Ukraine made all the world very, very, very anxious and then the price of the energy just went up very, very sharply. And I International Energy Agency released special report, Future of Heat Pumps, where it says that a heat pump is a very important solution to both energy security and at the same time climate change. So this is, everybody is watching heat pump system very much. And heat pump technology is not new technology at all by any means, but the Japanese companies are leading the world in technology of the heat pump system. Particularly, Daikin as a Japanese heat pump manufacturer is leading technology that cultivated over the years. And Daikin's air-conditioned air heating system, our hot water heating system, can produce 70-degree hot water, even if the outside temperature is minus 15. Isn't that amazing? So as I said that even if it's minus 15 outside, some heat exists in that air. So take that air out and then make seven times, I don't know, six times, and put it in the room to make hot water so that Daikin can produce this hot water, even in very cold Europe in winter. And Daikin's projection, the heat pump heating equipment will increase more than 10 times, 10-fold from 2020 to 2030 and expected to account for more than half of the European heating market. And then even in the UK, UK government established the investment strategy. And then the UK government also see that the heat pump system will be much, much more popular in the coming years. So please keep eye open on heat pump system. It'll be a big, big heat. So stop burning fossil fuel for heating or hot water system. And then as I said that the heat pump system can use for cooling. So the summer of Europe is very hot. So someday you will need an air conditioner in summer. So in that case, this system is very, very useful. So this is the heat pump system. So as I said that the electric vehicle and heat pump system, those are the two major pillar of the electrification. So that promotes these two technologies very much so that we could reduce energy consumption very much. And lastly, let me just briefly touch upon the supply side issue, which is nuclear development, nuclear operation in Japan. There were 54 nuclear units at the time of Fukushima accident, 13 years ago. Among them, only 12 nuclear power units have restarted operation. You know, 54 units stopped, all the 54 units stopped operation right after the accident. But only 12 have restarted operation in the past 12 and a half years. And 21 units were given up to restart and now in the decommissioning process. And that, so it's the Japanese, Japanese public has shown, keeps showing the very, very negative reactions to the nuclear power generation for the past 12 years. However, Russian invasion of Ukraine raised electric price very much. And then also made Japanese public very much worried about stable supply of energy, particularly electric power. I was shocked when I saw this number. This is a result of the public poll. Being asked, do you agree or disagree the restart of nuclear power and nuclear power units that meet new regulatory standard? 58 percent of the respondent said, yes, let's restart nuclear power. This is amazing, astonishing figure because this is a different source, but the results are similar. This is historical, the same question. It's been for many years after the Fukushima accident. Japanese people were very negative to restart the electric and nuclear power units. It stopped right after the accident, but it suddenly changed last year. And Japanese government sees this opportunity of the changes in the public poll. And then Japanese government started advocating the use of nuclear energy. And even started saying that we are going to develop the new technologies of nuclear power, such as small module reactors and high temperature gas reactors. Japanese public opinion still keep that favorable view on this Japanese government policy change. So I would say this is for the first time after the Fukushima accident, the Japanese people changed their stance toward nuclear power generation dramatically. So hopefully with this support, we are going to restart more nuclear units. As it says, there are many, many nuclear power plants are waiting for restart. So hopefully they will start that soon. And this is my talk today. And then as we are going to, as we are trying to realize, need zero society by 2050. So we have to do everything. So we have to do a lot of R&D for the new technologies, such as hydrogen or carbon capture storage or direct air capture of the carbon, those things. But this new technology to develop these new technologies takes some time, some many years. And then there are a lot of risks that everything things are not going well according to the scenario. But the technology that I explained today are all available now. So why don't we start doing that? Of course, while we are doing a lot of R&D for the new technology, but on the other hand, we don't have to wait. And we can convert your automobile to electric vehicle now today. And then you can change your hot water system to heat pump system today. So that's what we should do right now. And then that has a very large potential to reduce CO2 emissions. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Much food for thought there. I'm sure you have loads of questions. I just wanted to start us off, because I'm from Switzerland, where heat pump technology is actually is quite widely used, especially in new buildings. And I recently talked to a friend, a Chinese friend from Harbin, who said, oh, yeah, no, we also have heat pump technology, but everybody hates it. And I asked him why? And he said, because outside it's minus 15 degrees and inside is 32 degrees. And there's no way to turn down the heat. The whole building is heated to the exact same temperature. And so for him, it was more of a question of the collectivist solution versus a more sort of individualized idea. Just a matter of the size of the heat pump. Yes, it must have been a very huge massive thing, as you can imagine. So I wanted to ask you to start us off. Most of the solution that you propose very powerful ideas, but most of them are technological solutions. And I wanted to know how much emphasis would you put on behavioral change in this context? Well, yes, it's a good question. Because as I said, when I participated in the National Conference on Global Warming, people tend to talk about the supply side issue. And the media also report supply side issue a lot. So that people, you know, so that, oh, this Global Warming is a supply side issue. It's not our responsibility. And but if you use energy as much as you want and put all the responsibility to supply side to protect, to prevent energy shortage, and to reduce CO2 emissions, it makes a difficult question to solve more difficult. So I think that we have to educate people. You can do this today. Right. And so that people that understand, oh, this is, there is some room for us as an energy users or consumer of the energy to do right now. So I think that that kind of education is also very important. But the media tend to, you know, focus on the blood or, you know, via the fire, mountain fire, and those things, right? Right. So of course, that could shock the consumers of energy. We have to do something by ourselves. But sometimes the media, you know, puts the order's responsibility to supply side or stop, call fire from a fire station. So I think that that's why I'm telling this kind of story, or whatever the opportunity I have. Thank you very much. Yes. Questions in the room, please. Thank you. Two questions. I was in Fukushima four years ago. And I could see the line, a good friend from the uni took me around to the new center, information center for earthquakes. And then we could see on the way long lines of tracks carrying contaminated soil from near Fukushima to go and bury it or to be processed or whatever. And that was after a few years or many years of the disaster that issued how to deal with the legacy. And now it contradicts what you said, kindly, that 58% have changed the line. So in other words, the need makes it. So I want to ask you about this, that changing perceptions, its work of governance, perhaps in this case, and lobbies. That's number one. Number two, the green hydrogen. Do you see a clash? Because in Japan, it came from the Middle East, Saudi Arabia, and now we have caught 28 in the Emirates. In this case, do you see this one as a kind of a bridge between the conflict between the international energy agency in Paris and OPEC plus and pushing the net zero from 2050 to 2060? That's my question. Thank you very much. The first question is that actually, I don't know why the people changed their minds so dramatically. Because after the accident, I'm the one who explained to the Japanese people how much we learned from the accident, how safety major we introduced after the lesson, learning lessons from the accident, and how stringent the new safety standard is to the public, people. But as you see, it didn't change at all. But, well, I don't know. Well, thanks to Mr. Putin, first of all. So they probably, yeah, because the electric price went up very sharply last year. And that's for sure one thing. And on TV, not this year, but last year, it is kept saying that save energy, save the electric power, because we are running out of the electric fuel. So people realize that, but still, I was very much surprised by this change. So I do not know exactly what caused this. But obviously, because it happened last year and this year, it must be that the price and then the stable supply of electric power. And the second question, yes, that's also a very good question. But, well, actually, the organization, which now very much working for hydrogen, is an oil industry, gas industry. They made money, a lot of money last year, this year. And they know that their future is not very bright, because they are fossil fuel companies with a lot of money, so that they are spending a lot of money for hydrogen development. So I don't know what your question really means. But again, it could be a replacement of fossil fuel by hydrogen. And then, of course, the best thing is that hydrogen doesn't emit CO2 emissions. So it's a good thing. But as I said, from Japan's view, it wouldn't improve energy sufficiently. Thank you. There's another question. Yes, Marlon. Thank you. That was interesting. I also have an interest in the more social aspect of thinking about why we see that clearly the war must have been a factor. But I'm also wondering whether the practice, and this is finally something that only Japan does. I don't think there's a class of nuclear power as a renewable energy in your graphs. And I think that's very problematic for me, not just in ideological terms of what the part of the renewable power stands for. But when it comes to nuclear power, we haven't solved the problem of what to do with waste. It's really hard to do. So I wonder when this stratification started, as it always being considered a renewable source, has anything changed? I noticed it recently. I'm wondering whether part of the problem in the way we talk about it is to do with this new label that we've attached to it as a renewable kind of source, which defies, I mean, what I found interesting after the machine was that people learned that you could have a different lifestyle before you still survive. That you can't just come to a halt. People were doing, were living recently, and maybe you wouldn't have the lights on 24 hours a day, but you could still live comfortably. And at which point that was forgotten, something that interests me. And I'm wondering whether it is really to do with the way people talk about these things. And of course, media is highly responsible for it, but also these new kind of classification system, they think it's not all right. But it is not perceived as being dangerous anymore. Well, yeah, that's the exactly question that I have. Because during these years, people are very much worried about the safety of the nuclear power plants. Mr. Putin didn't change that. But suddenly, this is the result. So I don't know. This is a matter of the social psychology, or it's not very scientific maybe. But yes, nuclear waste is a big problem, as you said. And we have to do something. But in Japan, we have used nuclear power for almost 50 years. So there is a lot of nuclear waste already. But we have to do something, definitely. I'm not saying that's why we can develop nuclear energy further. But that's for sure. We have to do something. But that's one thing. But as I said, we can use technology available now. So I think we better use that technology in order to wait for many decades. I'm sorry. Maybe it's not a very good answer to your question. But I think that's just, I don't know why this happened exactly. I don't know. In Japan? No, no, no, not at all. It's totally different things. Well, I don't, because both do not emit CO2 emissions. That's the same. But those are totally different technologies. And renewable is natural power. So that you can't control sunlight or wind. So whenever they generate electric power, generate. And no matter how much we need the electric power, there is sometimes they stop generating power. So it's a natural thing. But on the other hand, nuclear power is a technology. It's a generation method. So we can control the power. We can stop it. We can start it. I don't think that any Japanese thinks that both of them are renewable or these things. It's a totally different thing. That's why this happened. For many years, people do not like nuclear. But they like renewable very much. But suddenly, this happened. Thank you. There's two questions, and I'll come to you from the audience online. Thank you very much for your presentation, says Ben Haringa. How might Japan's aging society impact its policies to reduce emissions? Do all the people really care about reducing carbon emissions? That's a good question. Good question. I don't know. Well, but Japanese people are relatively well educated. So we have people read and then watch and no news and every day. So I think that the awareness of the green transition or global warming is very high. So I think I hope that the elderly people don't care about energy problem or global warming because by the time they die, it wouldn't happen anything. So I don't see any, but definitely younger people have more invested. Yes, awareness. And then they think that they have to do something. But I don't see any that big difference between ages. Right. Thank you. Yes, there's another question. Thank you so much for the education seminar talk. I have two questions. It was kind of practical. One is the possibility of using the geothermal energy, the genesis. Is there any discussion on that? That is the first question. And the second question is, I was very curious about, oh, I thought it was a good idea to use the hypoxis. How widely is it available and how affordable it is? Okay. Okay. Well, I love geothermal power. I just love. So I think that particularly Japan should develop geothermal very much like Iceland. But the reason why we haven't been successful is I think that the geothermal potential sites, of course, it's volcano things are located in on some area, hot spring areas. So the many people are engaging on some business or tour business are very much afraid if we extract hot water from the ground, there the hot spring, you know, the amount of the hot spring will decrease or those things. And then also, these are the open case located in National Park. It is similar to a hydroelectric park. It's rather difficult to develop the large scale things. But recently the technology, you know, advanced and usually geothermal extract hot water from the ground and using that power theme, we rotate the generator. But recently, like oil gas development, we put water in the deep in the ground so that the water gets hot and then come back. They use that power so that this in this technology, we do not take any hot water from the ground so that the people in the hot spring industry or hot spring businesses do not worry about the scarceness of the hot water. So that I think what I wanted to say is a technology. So I think that geothermal is for particularly for Japan, volcano countries. And then we see that a lot of good example in Iceland, although the scale is very different. So it's not easy to just compare Iceland and Japan, but still use geothermal very, very practically. And I think we should do that. I like geothermal very much. And what is the next question? How expensive is the heat pump system? It's not expensive at all. First of all, Japanese air conditioner, usually it's for cooling, but of course it can be used for heating. It's not that very expensive. And then usually people change air conditioner when it's broken. So it's about 10 years old or 12 years old. And then they change new one. And compared to the 10 years ago or 12 years ago, the COP that I explained, the coefficient of performance, is dramatically improved. So if you just change all the air conditioner to the newest, more than one, the average energy consumption, electric power consumption will reduce sometimes half. So, and then the price is, I don't know, maybe 100,000 yen. Yeah, or 500. Of course, the higher the COP, the more expensive. But still, even if it's a very, not very high-end model, Japanese air conditioner, COP is something like five, six. So they produce five times energy. And then if it's the more than newest, most expensive one, COP is seven or eight. But probably the one you are using 10 years ago, 12 years ago, maybe COP is two or three something like that. So if you change it, you would save a lot of energy. Thank you. There's one more question and two more questions here in the room. Stella Dixon says, thank you for your talk. It was enlightening. I have two questions, if I may. I conducted my master research last year with forestry conservationists who were very keen to use Japan's forests as a resource to improve self-sufficiency, such as using wood for construction. Do you think forests and wood have a place in Japan's energy transition as well as to improve self-sufficiency? That's one question. And the other question is, alongside the change in views on nuclear power in Japan, do you see a broader shift in public perspectives on climate change, especially after the extremely hot summer this year? EG, are people more aware, more willing to change their behaviors, et cetera? This is a forest station. So is it an biomass energy? The example of the utilized forest. And then it's a very important part. They observe a lot of CO2, so that forest of forestation is very important. And I totally agree with that. But I thought it takes time to plant the trees. And so, of course, we have to do that. But I would expect very quick result. But of course, we have to keep planting a lot of trees. That's one thing. And the other thing is, the next question, it's the change of the mind. Yes, over summer, climate change. Yes, yes. The media keeps talking about whatever the extreme weather we experience. This is from global warming. So that people are very much aware, if it's true or not, but the people are very much worried about those very severe weather storms and the flood. And so, yeah, I'm not saying that unless there is those extreme weather, people wouldn't change their mind. But yeah, that definitely push people to think about global warming through their daily lives. So, yeah, I think it helps. Thank you. There was a question here. Thank you for our amazing presentation. I'm impressed about their heat-form system. Or could you tell me their biggest problem for spreading the systems and their differences are by areas or something? What's the problem? Say it again, please. Or they're spreading the system? The promotion of the system? In Japan, it's very, very popular. And I don't know, the people understand the mechanism of heat pumps, but they use heat pumps because it's so popular and available. If you go to the electric appliance shop, and then you can buy a lot of air conditioners, and then the heat pump, a hot water system is also available, so a bit expensive. But as far as Japan is concerned, heat pump is just popular. But as I said, even in Europe or in the United States, heat pump technology is becoming a lot of attention recently. This is probably because the global warming issue pushed this trend. And then sometimes, for example, when I gave a talk at Stanford University at a very nice hall, a big, big building, and then the people introduced me and showed that room in the hall, big hall, where I gave a talk. And then he proudly said that this building is using heat pump systems three years ago. And then I thought it's every building in Japan by using heat pump systems from maybe 20, 30 years ago. So I was very much surprised that the heat pump system is very new to Europe. But it's California. And then even in Europe, it's becoming very, very much as I explained. So please keep your eye on the heat pump system. It will be a big hit, definitely. A bit expensive, but yes, yes. And then I heard that in, I don't know, in the UK, but in Eastern Europe, they are using the central heating system, which means that they, as somebody said, that they do not heat just one room. They heat entire community. And there is a huge boiler and tank and then produce hot water there. And then it's rotate in the community and then heat up the inside of the house. So the diagene replace that boiler by heat pump system and then use that tank as it is and produce hot water by heat pumps, not by boiler. So I think it's rather easy to convert from conventional hot water making or heating system used in Europe to combine it to heat pumps. Thank you. Yes, please. Thank you very much for your presentation. A question about the nation like, about the power plant, the deep sea, you mentioned the first time. I mean, a wind power. Oh yeah, wind power in India. So floating. Oh yeah, wind power. Yeah. So I have one question, that what, which is the relationships between power plant system and the fishing industry. I saw that use last summer, one day company on the power plant in Indonesia, but there were some separate power plant in the fishing industry of the country. What do you think about this? Yeah, good point. It's a very big problem. It's like a hot spring industry. So fishery, fishermen, not very much favorable. And whatever the day, we build something near sea. Fishermen unions are the big, big program. So again, that offshore wind power, particularly in Japan, have that kind of problem very much. So it costs, we have to compensate something. So yes, it is a big problem. As you saw that the TV news or something, it is a big problem. It's not easy. Thank you. Any more questions in the room? There is one more question online here. Is it, do you think it's unfair to group single person transit private cars and public transport together in your emissions analysis? Since public transport can move many more people more efficiently, do you think the move shouldn't be towards electric cars but public transport electrified? I really enjoyed the lecture. Thank you. Yes, yes, it's true. But usually train is electrified. So and then as you know that Japanese public transportation system is so efficient and jam packed. So it's very, very in terms of the energy saving, it's very good system. It's not comfortable at all. But anyway, so I think it is true. It's true. And then the Japanese, you have typical example, but still, there are a lot of cars, a lot of automobiles. And then, and so we have to convert that to electric vehicles as much as possible. Yes, it's true. Right. Well, thank you very much. It is time. There's another event after us, apparently. Please join me in thanking our speaker tonight. Thank you very much for a very interesting talk. And do join us next week for a slightly different topic where we move to literature. We haven't had a talk on literature in a long time. Dr. Nozomi Uematsu will speak about hair and labor in Emiyagi's diary of a void. Same place, same time next week. Thank you very much. Have a good evening.