 Welcome to Pukie Pondas, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. Today's question is, what are some common misunderstandings about autism? And I'm in conversation with Andrew Edwards. Hi, my name is Andrew Edwards. I'm 35 years of age. I'm from Wrexham in North East Wales and I'm a pretty time published author including a well-received 2015 memoir on my life with autism entitled I've Got a Stat for You, My Life with Autism. Head of the talk to that, I used to work at Manchester Italian Television for the last half years as a broadcast statistician. And I've also been invited to House of Parliament and Buckingham Palace. Quite a CV there, and quite a wide range of stuff as well. One more thing, I've also been a guest on the Today programme. Oh wow, tell me about that. What did you go on the Today programme to talk about? Well, about my life with autism, Pukie. I was eventually still available to listen to online five and a half years later. I was actually by John Humphreys. He was in his house from Ravens Court Park in West London. I was recording it, recording the interview in the University in Wrexham. And there was another lady in between who was a new broadcasting house. And I was in, I was fighting down the publisher for my memoirs at the time that I'd written. Previously, I'd maybe have done it from Manchester Italian Television after like half years. I think it was a good thing that happened really because it's run its course. It was a wonderful time, but it'd run its course. And so I decided to write my memoirs about just to some publishers. Jessica King was republishing Turn Me Down amongst others. And then I got in touch with some media companies to see if anyone wanted me, I wanted me on just to see, just to get some publicity to see if it would work. And I was contacted by the Today programme. And one thing led to another and I was a guest on it on Easter Saturday 2015. Unfortunately, my future publisher, Benny and Cerny, were listening. Chat me down because I had very little online press at the time. I was on social media. I was still on social media in a fashion. And James told them you TV, my publisher. And the rest especially, I signed the deal exactly the minute a year later, I was made and done a promotion on television. Oh, wow, wow. That's quite a milestone moment. And why did you, you know, what inspired you to write your memoir? I want to talk about it on today and things like that. What were you hoping to sort of achieve with that? Well, I was sort of, I've led an interesting life. Like I was at a very checkered schooling. I was allegedly tied up in one school for my staff. I was the only child who could speak in the class. And in another school, I was allegedly, and I use that term very, very loosely, allegedly assaulted by a member of staff who has a close family there, who's a high-poor-poor television personality in their family. And it was just, and also I'd overcome that. I managed that in my life to achieve milestones to working with my satelination. I was only supposed to be there one day and I was there 11.5 years. There are just certain aspects I thought I had an interesting story to tell. And I really wanted to break down perceptions of guiding autism. The way that specialist diagnosed me to my mother in April 1989 and he said, go home and watch Raidman. He's just likely to use someone being institutionalised. So that's how I was diagnosed at the age of four. Well, that was the term that approved him wrong. So I think we've done that. So I basically went to, I basically thought I had an interesting life and thought it was a story to tell. I didn't get a story to tell if I didn't have autism. So that was an advantage in my respect of regular memoir. Because autism was the selling point. Even at the time people, some of them, they thought my satelination would have been more of a selling point because of my satelination. I could go on the biggest book of the world. But very much as autism has been the selling point with the book. And I just wanted to break, break my feelings and emotions down to hopefully make a relatable and interesting story. And have people responded to your story in the way that you hoped that they would? Do you think it's helped people understand autism a bit more? Hopefully, yes. It's been very well received to my face. And I've had good testimonies from some well-known personalities, quite a few well-known personalities. And I'd certainly say it's sold more than statistically you would expect because statistically only 50% of books, published books sell 200 or more copies. And I've sold all 121, all 122, which grants a few things when you think of all the big sellers. It's not many, but it's actually a lot when you consider 50% of all published books sell 200 or less copies in their lifetime, copies on units. And I think I've done pretty well. Most of the books that have sold have been on a face-to-face basis because I've done online because I do give non-profit speeches in North Wales and North Wales and the North West of England. I don't tend to travel for that, but I don't really see it as a career. I hope that some people who are autistic check hundreds and hundreds of pounds going in everywhere. There was one who went to Palmerston North in New Zealand. He said he's either there in 2013, but you just think, well, that's a bit much. And also with the non-profit speeches, I do like to have variety with them, but I just wanted people, I think, to my face, how sensitive they are to it, so that's good. And what do you think are some of the things that people don't understand about autism clearly when you were originally diagnosed, then your mother was given a very different sort of outlook on your life than how things have turned out. So could you talk to us a little bit about that, about the things that you think people don't understand and what perceptions perhaps need to change? I think, I don't think people realise that autistic people can be empathetic, opposite to myself. I can't always speak for others, but certainly if I am, I just assume others are so empathetic, perceptive, self aware, not particularly why we're too geeky, and just certainly interested in sports and exercise and training and health. And I think that lots of people with autism would benefit from a healthy lifestyle if they could find the correct encouragement or the correct environment. Because I've heard a statistic that, part of my mind was that I think the average age lifespan of someone who's so-called high functioning on the spectrum is 16 years less than the average for the average for the United Kingdom. And that I think is just obviously some of these high functioning people may have additional health problems, but the thing is 16 years, blink and act, that's a lot, 16 years less than the average. And I think there's a lot of people with disabilities, generally not just autism, who aren't encouraged to trade, who aren't encouraged to live healthy lifestyles, and I can say being self aware, being able to speak my feelings and emotions, being able to see out certain ways people pick on certain behaviours, and be very sensitive to the surroundings that's a man. So that's a massive misunderstanding, I think, isn't it, that people assume that, yeah, if you're autistic, you don't feel somehow, there's that real misunderstanding. And I think that what you're kind of touching on here as well about perhaps people having low aspirations, whether that's in regards of health and fitness, or maybe what you might be able to achieve is potentially an issue as well, do you think? I don't have no aspiration, but I don't think you actually have to generally say, well, you're going to be Prime Minister, although there has been someone autistic or has been Prime Minister in Gordon Brown, but the interesting part of, like I say, about high aspirations were the best footballers of all times autistic, Lionel Messi, Robbie Williams, Sir Anthony Hopkins, Manchal Madison III, Eminem's autistic. And when I was growing up, you never tended to have it mentioned that people with autism could achieve. So you didn't have anyone you could particularly relate to, although it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to accomplish what those people have accomplished in their field, but it's just, it's very much a smorgasbord, pooky, pooky. It's called the spectrum condition for a reason. I think one that you've got to really have in life is achievable goals. Even during the lockdown, with Wales it's about to go into lockdown in about 55 minutes again, and you've got to have achievable goals in life. You've got to set achievable targets. Excuse me, and you've got to have achievable goals. You can't just say, and if you have achievable goals, from your beginning point, then your middle and end point would be more goals that you want to be able to think that we're achieved from the beginning. So it's about evolution really. And how do you think that we can support, if I were a teacher or a parent of an autistic child, and we wanted to help them to kind of set and achieve achievable goals, as you say, what can help with that? What can help you in the past? People speaking in a nice manner. People, a calm person. Someone who's very calm. Someone who's very clear. Someone who's potentially a little bit concise in their instructions. But no ambiguity. I don't like ambiguity, to be honest. I can't hack that. Someone who's very clear in the communication and someone with no ambiguity, which I think those are big points of reference for me. And are there things that make things particularly difficult? Are there things that people get wrong often that you think we should avoid? Sometimes, just being honest, I didn't know that much about my condition until after I wrote the book, obviously I knew the call today, so I knew I was autistic. I knew I was always going to be autistic. But I've learnt quite a bit of peripheral traits since I wrote the book. Like even I dated a girl and she told me something very interesting that this is very, very peripheral. That I probably got the toilet last minute because of my autism and my hand was quite bad because of my autism. I never had my ID until then. And little things with what I learned about this. A little bit more perception. I've been driving lessons, I've been getting driving lessons. And sometimes my perception doesn't work when I'm driving in the lessons. And just what the other thing I read a lot recently is perception, sensory issues. Yeah, I knew about sensory issues in a fashion, but it's also like clumsyness as well. Very occasionally I have to be clumsy. And just that little things like processing information or I never always realised that I'm not processing information as part of my autism. I've been overloaded in such matters. So it sounds like you actually learnt a lot about yourself whilst writing the memoir. It sounds like quite a journey. I think I knew that I experienced these traits and these personality traits. But I couldn't figure out what was the autism and what wasn't. And that's always a very interesting point. When people say nature or nurture with someone, it's the same with my autism. What part is me as a person? What part is the autism? Like I just think that autism is a genetic thing. I think it's pretty much, to be safely to be assumed that autism is a genetic condition. But I didn't realise what family member it was. But just before I was writing my name, I didn't realise which family member it was. So it was a family member I didn't model with and then died since. And it's something that's obviously become a really important part of your life. You've written a book and you go and you speak to people about it. Is it one of the most important things about you? Do you think? Or are there other things that you think... More important matters than my autism to be honest, because I'm not attuned by it. My family won't allow it. So I'm sure you're talking about autism now. I've changed the subject. I just said matters like what I find and more important with me are like cricket, training, music, comedy, gigs. Obviously gigs are not permissible at the moment with the pandemic. But socialising with my mates, although I don't drink because of the medication I'm on with my autism. But I like to... Oh, that's another thing I like to break down. The autistic people can be very, very, very sociable and have made the answer. I understand that. I still like to break down. You can have made some all kinds of walks of life personalities. When people who are autistic stay with typically or typically, I don't know which, tend to have people who are autistic themselves or no mates at all. It's very much not like that with me. I've had mates who've been... where I've been with television presenters. I've had mates who've been a form of racial footballer. I've had all kinds of mates. The mates who are solicitor. And all kinds. I could list them all, but I'd be just very boring. But I can see with the autism, it's not the most important part of me. It's an explanation for certain events and occurrences that happen in my life. But no, it's not every part of me. Like some people are autistic and can choose them. But that's all they talk about. Day in, day out and stuff. And you've got more than that. I just think I like to have a variety of interests. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But having that understanding of autism and understanding of self maybe means that you're more able to engage with all those other interests because... Exactly, yes. Exactly. That's a very well put pookie. Because I'm not particularly warned for the signs of autism because I'm not qualified to go down that route. But I might mean my family have always been very much into the practicalities of such matters. This is an issue. How are we going to manage it? That's what we're into. We're going into practicalities. We're not into the signs of it because we're not qualified to assess the signs of autism. Well, I know of this one speaker who charges quite a lot. He's quite a lot. He's from Northback, he's from 25 minutes from Brexit. They charge top dollars. He's going all out the signs of it because he's not qualified to do with it. It sounds like you're all about overcoming stuff and actually not saying... Managing. Managing. Because really, in life, you never overcome anything. You don't manage it if you're lucky, if you're fortunate, and if you're successful, but you never overcome a matter. You never overcome a matter. You never overcome a matter. You never overcome. You learn to manage. Manage. It sounds like you've got quite good support network in terms of friends and family when faced with obstacles or challenges. What does that look like? Could you maybe talk us through a time when there was something that you wanted to do or that was more challenging and you've had to manage that and you've had some help with it? Well, where else would we have done that from my side of the television? My sister who lives next door to me and our mother decided to become my carer because all the support from the NHS had been cut. So I had a bit left with nothing. Just doing the way I told them all day, doing nothing. And so she said, I'm not going to let that happen to Andrew. I'm going to take him places, dive him here till a certain time, go places with him, carry on his gym training. And we're going to invite that book Andrew. We're going to write that book. I'm going to help you get the feelings out with that book. My mum was there because she kept the papers for meetings and so forth. And also I wrote two other books, Pookie. I wrote one in a local football cricket club in Exum. And I wrote another one called A Vision of Exercise about which featured contributions from many different aspects of sport. Next slide. It's clearly from level athletes, currents and father, to just regular people who find training as a release for the fundamental health health generally. That sounds really interesting. What inspired you to write that? Well, exercise has helped me. But why didn't you exercise actually helped me at that point? Until I teach gyms to a gym on the one HSP in Queensferry. When I sat in the book, I was going to enjoy training but by the end of it, I was going to enjoy it because I coached trainers or coaches. It was more qualified the one I went to in Queensferry. I realised they enabled me to enjoy it and I still got that gym now. But I didn't coach because the other one moved to careers. But it's very much number one, saved me in the summer of 2017. My mental health was playing quite bad. It wasn't probably lucky back. It was the worst at the Southern Mental Health issues in my life. But it wasn't because of you either way. The gym helped me enormously. It gave me a reason to get up every morning. And it does. Obviously it's going to be close in two weeks. But it's also given me the two rules to train at home. That's another thing. My sister was very good during the first lockdown when she actually turned her garage into a gym. Into a very, very good gym so we could train at home and my coach, who replaced Gernaith, who was a lovely lad, a fantastic coach, but he wasn't a fantastic coach too. He programmed all my sessions on an app to take down all the repetitions, take down the weight. I suppose we had a lot of weight at home at home that we had. So I could continue to train. So training means a lot to me. It's not the condition you're running. So I'm playing cricket. So sport and exercise then has been really important for you and for your mental health. Why do you think it's helpful? What about it? Is it a release or is it that kind of routine or connecting with people? Do you know what to put your finger on it? I tend to say we just mean like coach. Because over time I met up my mates in different environments. Recently I met up with a group in the cricket, a church cricket club. But in the past I met a lot of my mates in Cambridge, Manchester television, but it's very much a release training mentally and physically and it helps me compartmentalise the whole of my life. It's like Jim, afternoon, it helps you compartmentalise like I'm looking at starting a new job paying position in the new year. So when I volunteer that for many years for a more heritage trust I just use this example. If I'm at the gym in the morning they always say you can go to the gym first then come to us. So it's compartmentalised different clothes and different situations. Different clothes and different situations, different mindset different situations. And it's helped me enable me to get different mindsets and different set ups in whatever I do. And you said that the gym helped you when you had that difficult patch with your mental health as well. Is that something that you're happy to talk a little bit more about? Yes. Because I do have a sense of mental health in my life. I had a couple when I was at Manchester Italian. I did lucky back now probably had one after when I was allegedly assaulted by member of staff when I was 11 at a school I went to. That was probably looking back now that was bad mental health but that was probably one PTSD as they call it. But when you're 11, 12 you just know you're happy you don't really know what mental health is. And then I had a bad mental health spell I had panic attacks the years leading up to it at Manchester Italian television. But I had a really bad mental health spell at Manchester Italian television around about 2011, 2012, 2013 and early 2014. Well probably 2012, 2013, 2014 were the worst. And probably a little bit in the summer of 2017. But I see it being in the 2017 when it was probably milder than the type one Manchester Italian television back between 2012 to 2014. And the gym helped you through some of those? Parly in 2012 Parly in 2012 to 2014 but it wouldn't have probably that much in that year because the environment I was in training it wasn't very good wasn't very good at all looking back. When in 2017 I changed the environment to a much more community-based environment with a non-profit gym that encompassed even the need level athletes in the area to people who just take their training seriously and a very nice sponge as well as as well as just coaches were very very qualified there and it's a better environment but I do think that everyone you've got to find an old environment an all-correct environment for them and it took me probably about 13 years to find the correct environment. Wow. And what about it is it that's right for you now because you sound so happy when you talk about it now it sounds like it's such a positive force in your life? Yes it is and not only is it positive in my life it's positive in my sister's life she's very positive for her so that's we don't always train together apart from on a Wednesday in the gym the next couple of weeks the next couple of weeks I would say that we don't hurt you after she's finished next door and then we'll go and separate us but usually a week to week I'll try to block down even circuit breakers whatever she usually trains after me on a Monday or a Tuesday when she trains on her own with programmes set up by the National Commission it's a big force a positive in our family generally so It's really good to hear and it sounds like your sister is a really important person and influence in your life as well So it's my mum so I'm sure she would want to be praised so mum's very much mum has to fight for everything I don't remember about the emotional strength when I was going out to fight everything fight everything with that when I was the one who didn't beat me enough it was like all these people all these professionals against this lady who probably thought she was a nuisance just protecting your orthopedic son it was immensely difficult for me when I was growing up and then after that I had meltdowns I was really affected by it and she was a power of strength she's got one of the most emotionally strong people I've ever come across and she had a very bad accident six and a half years ago just after I left when she was on television and people who aren't as emotionally strong as they would never have come back from but she does everything in power just to live a life that's quite good for her today she's 78 years in February every second but she's one of the most most strong people I've ever come across probably the most of the most she's done person I've ever come across because without her when I was growing up I don't know what would have become of me and I don't know what would have become of me more in recent years of Malony but with mum certainly when I was growing up Malony would not have been able to help with that because mum put all the foundations in place to enable me to have this to enable me to have the job I had and the future job I wanted to have but like I said there's one thing I really if I could one thing in the future I would like to well two things, two items I'd like to do one is to pass my practical driving test and one is to have a long term relationship with a girl those both are like really good and they sound achievable aims, hard work I think the driving is more achievable than that but it's going to take time the actual dating I could tell you some stories about some of the situations that I've come across online dating some situations you never thought humankind would actually stoop so low it's not met some nice people but there's some people some really odd people as well I've stood up four times but it's taken to get to Liverpool and the girls stood me up despite reading all my messages when I was giving an update to where I was another one with the same name with the same name spelled differently stood me up a maximum because she's from a maximum that didn't matter so much and irritating though it was another girl stood me up twice another girl with the same name but spelled differently again to the other two girls she she's writing about her names by 10 years fortunately I found this out a day before we went on a date so dodged that and another girl I went on two dates with had my first kiss with her she was very much she broke up with me but she got a best mate she involved who she worked with saying oh the put so and so was not very good today she's devastated as well and then she was going to then she was going to then she wasn't touching me on what to block her on that then I see she was back on the dating site then the next morning I was going to a football match in the Welsh Premier League to watch one of my best mates manage and I got this big man managed proposal offer saying can I meet her with you I want to propose to you whoa screenshot I thought whoa I had some good experiences I was a lovely girl I went out with went out with for three months we dated for three months but it peated out but I learnt a lot from that there was a very positive experience I got nothing but positive experiences from the last part of it but with the lockdown it was successful but generally the coronavirus pandemic it's probably about the worst time you can possibly think of but going on dates and starting a relationship probably even worse than World War II Boogie I think yeah it's a tough time one of my best friends is also dating using online dating at the moment and he said similarly that it's it's especially challenging it's not going to happen in this year especially if you come from Wrexford Boogie out of London because a sign of an autism dirty website and there she's like people either from America or from the south east of your neck of the woods in London and when you're from Wrexford there's not even many from Manchester Liverpool as well and do you specifically use so it's an autism dating site specifically you want to meet someone else who's autistic not necessarily no not necessarily but I'm open to that but on dates with girls or autistic I've met our traditional dating sites I thought my either way as long as someone that's compatible with someone I get on with someone that likes me for who I am and I like them for who they are I'm open minded regarding that but I think I've got to be honest with myself and on dates with girls they'll probably have to have some sort of some sort of condition of some sort of OCD some sort of physical disability or or something something that probably rather than someone who's got nothing nothing but they've not got anything particularly particularly any conditions because I think but then it's not just autism it's OCD and other things, dyspraxia I think she's got dyspraxia I've actually been on a date with a girl with dyspraxia as a dyspraxic comedian that wasn't too bad but there was no spark what makes you say that you feel that you would need to go out with a girl who had some condition or disability I think I've tried the other way and I've actually been on dates with girls I only started dating again October 2018 I was almost 34 then I was actually approached to go on at the blue to approach to go on a high profile dating series on television I was sold by then to six weeks who were at North East Wales in the summer of 2080 and that fell through at the end because sort of it means to me to put it mildly it was just thought it wasn't autistic enough so they wanted me to crack basically but it made me think I didn't want to look I wasn't lucky for dating at that point I was lucky for trying to lift my profile but it was very much a case of asking that and I was like yeah I think I could go on a date I could go somewhere a date a girl but I had a very mixed mixed mixed experiences I think certainly with online dating ostensibly it tends to be you've got all this choice but there's a lot of on people as well it's very but also you've got to answer people who want to be in open relationships like Brad Pitt's new girl basically it's it's jungle out there it's like it's not what you want in life because I find the people are unwilling to give people a chance like there won't be day to day life or like talk to who we are now or this is very much a working working conversation but you're willing to give people that opportunity to speak and express themselves where on my dating people you could be talk to people very kindly very friendly one minute but the next minute the next second literally and it's like I know it's something within that but it's like all what I do, what I smell it's like it's like it's hard ideally with me I was late to it on Thursday but I certainly think outside of Covid it would be more beneficial to meet someone in an organisation meet someone at a club sport club or work but that doesn't tend to happen anymore because the shared interest clubs for someone like myself like we've discussed the way I express myself people with autism who might be more high functioning don't tend to navigate to those places where people with only difficulties tend to which is not to suspect to those particular people but it's like obviously obviously there's people out there who are autistic I'm open minded about but I do think realistically that someone with some form of autism I don't think there's that many it's very very very very quiet that dating site that's where autism it's very very very very quiet it's not going to happen on there and it's not going to happen because of Covid probably until next summer the very earliest but probably realistically if I was honest there are more girls who are probably either who are hired up on the spectrum are certainly got a certain trait of OCD autism distracts here but are still very intelligent very articulate have a smorgasbord of interests but could relate to people there are people like that that exist the last girl I dated for three months was proven that she had obsessive compulsive disorder and we had a lot of share especially a substance and so forth so it's a girl that I do exist and they probably do exist on traditional dating sites but they won't probably exist on disability art autism dating sites what would say yeah absolutely so yeah I suppose it's it's about finding that you only need to find one right person that's a very positive way to look pooky that's very positive and the thing is the thing is with the dating sites there's a lot of having to siphon stuff out beforehand and what I found before was I've spent most of my life on that someone got it back to me someone got it back to me and that's one thing with the lockdown of the coronavirus pandemic I've actually enjoyed where it's not been a case of looking at my phone all the time yet contact people via email via WhatsApp via text but it could be very intense those dating sites and that's ideally I want to avoid them if I'm running out of law ideas you said that you're maybe looking at getting a new or different job at some point yes this has been a long time coming pooky it's very much very very very very accommodating it's because it's going to be lossy funded it's going to be lossy funded it's for the heritage cost in next sub because I can't work more than 60 hours to certain matters but in a week but they're going to accommodate it like I went on a trial there last year just to get a taste of the environment but and I've volunteered there for quite some time off and on and part of the local football cricket club was to do with my volunteering there it's something they were just waiting well hoping for lossy funding millions and millions and millions of lossy funding for the agile cost millions and millions but very much a big enormous heritage attraction in the area in Brumbol on the old steelworks very much and they're open to open sometime on about 2023-2024 so it's very much it's going to be tens of millions of public funding behind it lossy array and other matters and it's been a long time coming I haven't been in a paid position since 1990 television but part of the event was but that wasn't that much but basically with the job I'm really looking forward to it and it used to be getting closer and closer and closer and I know it's going to be a very accommodating environment where all that necessarily just have been made or will be made sorry I know everything will be very calm that you clearly explained to me by my manager I was going to ask about what kind of accommodations help you in the workplace obviously you held your role at Manchester United for a very long time so clearly that worked well for you or I assume say yeah I'm a different person to that now because I'm more I'm just able to deal with certain matters better and more mature I always met my support worker who's my support worker at the time who's also my brother-in-law but a brumbo I'm going to be on my own but then I don't need any help in that way because I know what's expected of me I'm a different person I'm more mature my sister's enabled my sister's worked with me has enabled me to deal with such occurrences and I know with my boss at Brumbo that he'll explain everything clearly, concisely and calmly in a manner that I understand and I will get the message if I've committed committed a full part of something wrong and I know it's going to work because I'm a different person at MUTV and I know very much that people are feeding that it was a very relaxed environment shall we say and just going completely back I'm interested to know a little bit more about your childhood because you talked about your mum having to kind of fight a lot of battles and the emotional strength that that took and also about how that specialist said, you know, go home and watch Rain Man your son will be institutionalised and I'm just really interested to know really what was it that your mum did, what was she fighting for in order to mean that that future was incorrectly predicted and obviously you've completed everything, everything you could think of okay, one famous story was after I was allegedly beaten up but I like to be assaulted by the member of staff in that school when I was 11 which is outside the county of Wrexham I can say that because there's 10 counties and there's 45 villages in Wrexham but basically but basically she broke into the head of Wrexham Education's Office afterwards and she remember and the thing was she wanted to see the head of education at the time, this was there in 1998 I was going to see Christopher's then she wanted to get the support worker for me and she wanted it was my brother-in-law and she also wanted to get the support that required to go and see Christopher's school in Wrexham Special School and basically it goes on, oh he's not in today and I was thinking I'll wait and the member of staff goes is someone sorry, no just go ahead, go ahead so she memorised the buttons of the code, memorised it went through, went to the office and gave me some what he deserves and yeah yeah I'll do it so that's what you do at the base that's what got me there so you've had your mum in your corner fighting for you all the time and why do you think that she didn't accept that initial speculation from that specialist that you wouldn't achieve because she clearly thought you could and you have? Yes well I don't know I think she just thought I would walk, I would talk I would achieve what my siblings have achieved I'll do what they've done in a different way because we all achieved differently but basically she thought I would do I would achieve and she wasn't going to lay down without a fight because everything she's done she's done, she's fought the part where she had to be exhausted and he's in almost 70 years Yeah and presumably it's meant that you've worked hard as well because these are not easy things to achieve are they I'm not particularly academically well qualified because of what happened at the theatre schools but very much I'm very knowledgeable very very knowledgeable I would say I know a little bit a lot but I'm not academically qualified so because of a disrupted school and because by the time you got to college age I'd had enough by that pookie, I wanted to work at my traditional television and fortunately my mentor at the time there was very very good you let me go in before the back door Well but you said you went for a day and you left 11.5 years later so I'm assuming that it you got unwell there but basically yeah I just did what I could do I was just new I was very quiet at first because my mum said you don't talk too much in the office you don't talk but I soon realised that MUT viewers a very sociable office to put it mildly very relaxed very very laid back to put it mildly and that's just the diplomatic way of putting it forward the line someone say it they always got the job though there was very much a creative industry I put it that way there was a clash of the creative industry against the corporate monster and unfortunately there's only going to be one person more environment that's going to be that and the corporate monster but when it was the creative industry there no they couldn't always put what they want to be the club media, the club channel but there was a creative creative environment where it was very different and the thing is people say oh people don't always realise that MUTs are not now but when I was there very different very different ethos from both sides MUT was very creative environment where MUT television was a very corporate environment where they never got the way we worked and we didn't like the way they worked we couldn't really get the way they were there was like a clash of cultures I would just say to put it mildly and there was only one that was going to win and it wasn't the creative industry that was going to win which is a shame although it sounds like you've got a bright you've got bright things ahead I said if it was bravo it's going to be I'm going to have to do my work but I've got a fair idea of these things the people there are pretty going to be pretty similar to last year they're looking at expanding over the time because they've received quite a lot of lossy money about a week before Covid properly struck them first lockdown they've got the last bit of tens of millions of lossy funding of public funding so it's just very bright there and I'm very fortunate to say that in this current climate what we're going to do with my job after third of the lens next week and the other scheme starts and so forth I don't always like to mention this I wish but my future in that respect is I'll be doing what I want to do to fund it now I didn't specifically jump into my life but I think that's great I would want to do the travel information that's happening to Manchester all the time now before Covid Manchester was very much a social environment we're going to gauge, meet new mates and once Covid is more manageable that's what I want it to remain where as of my work I want to work more locally to home which gives me more flexibility for my job working out of the gym Will you continue to write do you have plans for a further book? No I don't I've written three, I think I've made my contribution to literature but I did have an idea that I've put up and also a publisher just before last Christmas I wasn't bothered either way if I got accepted or not I wasn't bothered either way if I got accepted but I've moved on from that now but it's very much a part of my life that I'm extremely proud of I'm extremely proud of it it's simply a part of me that can never be taken away but it's very unlikely if you've googled me I hope you've googled me for your research that it's always a subpointer that's a brilliant thing and also as you say it's something that can't be taken away but also it's something that will influence how other people think and feel and being able to share your experience in that way is such a powerful thing to do I always like to finish with a closing thought so what thought would you like to leave people with when when I leave when I die at the end of the podcast when people are listening what thoughts just that through perceptions and we all achieve what we want to achieve and I just don't think that there's no one side that's all in life with anything and I get my own coaches to say there's more than one way to skin a cat and I always think that's a very pertinent term but I also think that I think that I just like to be I'm proud of the person I am I haven't always been happy with me probably about seven or eight years ago but now I'm very comfortable and I like myself which if you don't like yourself no one else is going to like you are they so and what is there any message that you think it would be helpful to give if a parent found themselves in a similar situation to your mum did all those years ago where they've just received a diagnosis and they're not sure what the future might hold there's a fight for everything every little ounce of support that you get so that's what you're just going to fight for everything nothing comes on a place and I don't think the best thing to do in life is to have a sense of humour but I've got quite a black sense of humour the British black sense of humour because at the end of the day if you don't laugh at something many years later you continue to moan and groan and oh and I badly don't and oh and always me you won't achieve in life you'd just be wallowing yourself all done mate we all will do that but there's a time where you've got to learn where you've got to hopefully get past that and learn to manage your emotions and learn to make steps to adjust to your surroundings and adjust to what you need to do