 Hi, I'm Gene Bergman, Ward 2 City Councilor and I am proud and very happy to have another show of Burlington Progressives TV. We've been doing this show now for going on a year and had a lot of great guests and we've got back with us today. Elected City Councilors of the Progressive Caucus, Milo Grant will be sitting next to me when she comes in. She's still working and coming home from work, so safe drives Milo. We are going to talk about the election a little bit and we're going to then talk about what we all want to do. So let us start with Carter Newpizer from Ward 1. Introduce yourself to folks, talk to us about what this campaign was like. Yeah, well thanks for having all of us and for doing this, Gene, as always. My name is Carter Newpizer. I'm the Councilor-Elect for Ward 1. I met many of you if you actually live in Ward 1. I probably met you at the door. Did you knock to everybody's door how many times? Knocked to everybody's door twice and then the campaign itself, we made actually four door knock attempts which I'm incredibly proud of as someone who comes from an organizing background and working on many campaigns. I'm really excited about that. But yeah, reflecting on the campaign, I mean I think the main thing that I heard was we want folks to responsibly govern, like make sure potholes are filled, we plow the streets, etc., just the basics of city government, but at the same time really have a vision for how we're going to make our community more affordable and also how we're going to address public safety in a data-driven way that really centers compassion and effectiveness. So that's generally what I'm excited to start to tackle. That's great. And how do you personally feel about having gone through this? I mean, we're all human beings and yeah, human beings are the ones that do this. This is not some sort of an abstract thing. Yeah, still adjusting for sure. I've got an almost three-year-old at home, my partner we're expecting, our second kid and so it's a crazy time to have run for office and having a full-time job and a kid on the way, one kid in the house, but I seem to be managing and figuring out how to balance those things. So yeah, certainly I'm setting time aside for myself to go to the YMCA and hit the sauna and work out, but that's one of the strategies I use to stay sane. Those are important strategies. I mean, it's sort of trite to say, tell me what democracy looks like, this is what democracy looks like, but it is about regular people with hard lives stepping up to serve their people, to serve the people. So thank you for your service. I actually hate when people say that to me. Merrick, introduce yourself. The camera is there. Talk to us about what this campaign was like for you. Yeah, so my name is Merrick Broderick. I'm the councilor-elect for Ward 8 and this campaign was something I never could have possibly expected a year ago. I'm so proud of everything that my team and I were able to accomplish and everything that we were able to get done in just that couple months span. It still baffles me being able to knock every door in Ward 8 four times by election day, being able to drive out an unprecedented amount of student voters, not just in Ward 8, but in the surrounding wards as well. And just the margin alone that we won by says that when you show people that a better world is possible and how we can do it, they will hear your call and they'll go out and make their voice heard, so I'm very excited to get started. Meeting with everyone that we've met with the past couple weeks has just made me even more excited to step into that chair and make change happen. That's a big deal to be able to knock on all these doors. And to meet people that you never did before. I mean, talk a little bit about that experience. Well, by no means was I alone in knocking all those doors. I have been able to gather a force of, in total, I would say 25 to 30 people throughout the campaign knocking doors and doing all other tasks. And it's just, it means a ton that enough people could rally around someone like me and accomplish a goal like we've accomplished. And I think it's very important, especially in Ward 8, that we are knocking every door with how much turnover we see in that ward every single year. And I can't wait to go out and meet all the new faces next year. And you're going to be going to a Ward 8 NPA. We'll get a chance before you go to talk again. But it's impressive to inspire a team that has 25 to 30 people. So that is a credit, not just to everybody else, but also to the candidate. So, excellent. Joe, Joe Cain, Ward 3, newly elected progressive candidate. Talk to us about that. Yeah. Nice to be here with you all on this side of the election. It has been a whirlwind, for sure. Yeah, I haven't really had a chance to kind of digest it all because I jumped right into the work. Like, I'm sure you all have as well, thinking about how we're going to, you know, really set our priorities and figure out what is feasible to accomplish and, yeah, how we're going to work with our constituents, how we're going to work with Democrats on Council, how we're going to work with the new administration. I'm very excited with the mayoral result in particular. I had a feeling that my own message would resonate reasonably well with the downtown district that I represent, mostly renters, you know, a lot of younger folks, but I'm very motivated by the fact that Emma won by almost a thousand votes city-wide. So the equity issues that we talk about, you know, resonate with this city in general. And so I think we have a mandate to go forward, think about tax issues, democratic process issues, you know, to, you know, not just plug the potholes and keep the streets paved, but engage in good, you know, affirmative policy. And when you were going around, did you get affirmation about this bigger agenda? Yeah. Going door to door, I heard a lot about the housing crisis, for sure, mostly renters in the city and mostly renters, for sure, in my ward. Year over year rent increases close to $1,000. In some cases, a lot of just instability of life, just an inability for people to plan their life to be committed members of this community. So the opposite of what we want. And, yeah, I think it's important that we engage the community. We have a community that has a lot of energy to be involved. And so I think we should use the community as a resource to, yeah, try to engage in effective policymaking. The beauty of campaigns is that you get to meet tons of people. You get to energize them. And our job is to keep them as you're saying, active. We are joined by the fifth city councilor, my sister, Milo Grant, who did not run. But you did. So tell us about that experience as a sitting councilor who wasn't up for reelection, but you're still very active. So there was a lot of praying because I knew that we needed a change. I was very enthusiastic for all the people that stepped up and ran. Even our candidates that lost, they ran great campaigns. They elevated the conversation, which I think was important. And I think that we got the ear of the city. I really do. I think that people understood that you could vote for Emma or you could vote for more of the same. And we need a change. And we need to, especially everyone knows that I am very involved with public safety initiatives. And if we cannot have another summer like we had in 22 and 23, we cannot. And so that resonated with folks when you were out campaigning. I think so. I mean, people are certainly very concerned about the drug crisis and what is or is not being done. There was a lot of misinformation that was out there about public safety. And a lot of people didn't just, it was an education for me, like understanding Vermont laws. You know, people would use a term, these progressive laws, they're Vermont laws. And they have, you know, if someone does a nonviolent crime, they can't be held while pending trial. That is how the law, that is a law. So when people say catch and release, we're literally looking at situations where we have the law, we have the Constitution. And some of our laws, quite frankly, are not what we're seeing now, such as all the car thefts and other things. The laws weren't ready for what's happening now. So a lot of education. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I mean, elections matter. There is no doubt. And I have to say sitting at the table about a month before the election, the mayor was actually talking. And I can't remember if it was at a council meeting, but maybe it was just in sort of some other setting where he was talking about picking up two more seats. And those would have been one, would have been one of your, two of your three seats, you know, and we picked up a seat on that. And the, it was very clear that folks on the other side of the table, many of whom are, I mean, they're good people, I think. I've worked with them a lot. So I don't try to disparage them as individuals. But they, there wasn't a sense, I don't think that our politics were politics that resonated with the majority of people. And I'm really hopeful that this election is going to change that. And I'm seeing some indications of more willingness to, to work with us. So that will be great. I mean, from my perspective, and I did run, but I ran with an uncontested race. I'm just so, I'm shocked, actually. And so pleased that 80% of the people who actually cast a ballot, including those who, who didn't write it, you know, you didn't have to vote for me. But 80% of the people who showed up and cast a vote for somebody on that voted for me. I'm just amazed at that. So I'm so appreciative of the people in Ward Two for that. And I think that the message that we have been putting out, at least in the old North End, clearly, but it's resonated up in on the hill and in Ward Eight, is a good one, is the right one. Merrick, because you've got to go to the NPA, not too to, you know, not like immediately. So I want to give you a chance to talk about the things that you want to do in this upcoming year. You're, you're elected for two, but we'll start with one. Yeah, so knowing obviously that our total agenda is going to be heavily based on what our committee assignments are, what we're going to be spending the brunt of our time. And personally, I'm very excited that we're collectively working on an agenda and we can hopefully set something up that works for the entire city. I personally, in terms of the, the housing crisis, I want to, I want to make sure that any increase in the density of our city is done equitably, and that that housing is affordable and available and accessible to all Browntonians. And we can do that whether we are tinkering further with neighborhood code or tinkering with our inclusionary zoning or doing something completely new. I think that's very important to solve our help solve our housing crisis. And when talking about existing tenants, I want to focus on renters rights, rent stabilization, and enforcing already existing ordinance like the weatherization ordinance. So, and I'd also like to focus on, sorry, the focusing on climate. I would like to get us to start looking into our options when it comes to the McNeil plant and what our alternatives to it are in order to hopefully decommission it while also having an alternative that is clean energy on site that will keep our utilities where they are thanks to the McNeil plant. And looking forward to working on infrastructure particularly in regards to Memorial Block. And that's in your ward, right? Yes, it is. And constructing or looking at plans to expand our biking infrastructure, making it safer and easier to bike around the city and to walk around the city. And looking for avenues of funds for GMT because we have an obligation to the city to provide fair free transit to everyone. It's a huge equity issue. And we do have to acknowledge that GMT does not have the money to do that right now. So we have to look at all options whether it's state or local and see what we can do. But that's a good overview. That's great. I mean, and that's consistent. All of those are consistent with things that we've been talking about. It's going to be really great to have an ally on our side of the table for doing that. That's consistent on that. So, Carter. Yeah. Similar issues that I know in your ward to Ward 8. Yeah, I would say I think we all share like a broader policy agenda and as Merrick alluded to want to figure out what my committee assignment is and how that will influence what I'm personally working on day to day. I think I'm really excited to really demonstrate that, you know, our communities place this huge amount of trust in us by electing us as individuals but also electing a progressive government. And so I really want to demonstrate that you can hold big, you know, change that's in line with the crisis we face and be good at the basics of city government. And I'm excited because I think Emma brings that to the table in so many ways and to be able to collaborate with her is going to be exciting. In terms of my own policy priorities, I think focusing in on affordability, particularly inclusionary zoning and how we can strengthen that as neighborhood code gets implemented seems really exciting to me. Obviously, climate's near and dear to my heart. So as you said, Merrick, like thinking about as these report backs come back from BED on McNeil, thinking through how we can responsibly move away from all carbon based energy because we just don't have the time to sort of slow walk action on climate. So thinking about how we can do that while also balancing the need to protect rate payers. And I do think we can do that. I don't think those things are at odds rather. Same as true of protecting good union jobs. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. So that seems exciting to me. I think there's a couple Ward one specific areas, you know, hillside terrorists. We've got a part of the street on that loop. It's BHA housing and there's just potholes literally, you know, end to end or side to side, like two car lengths worth. So just at our first meeting, Joe and I was we're meeting with DPW and had the chance to raise some of those more neighborhood specific issues as well. So yeah, just excited to get to work and just to work with all of you because I think we got a wonderful crew. So I would agree. I totally agree. Joe, talk to us about your your priorities and maybe focus on the ones that you're going to be looking at from the get go. Okay. Well, from the get go, we'll need to be working on the budget. So that happens with presentations from department heads in May. And we work through that. I think in June, it gets finalized heading into I think late June and and takes effect, I think in July. And so that's going to be a challenging process because we have a significant deficit. And there's also a lot of pressure to expand services with, you know, in relation to the social crises we face homelessness, substance use. So I think the budget process itself is going to be, you know, worthy of pretty much all of our attention for a period of time. I am excited about the other priorities that American Carter raised. One other topic or a couple other topics, maybe that I'll just touch on that that I think have not really been raised yet would include tax policy. I'd like to see fair equitable property appraisals right now. We have a system where a $2 million house tends to get assessed at close to 1.2 million, about 60% of its market value. So that family is only paying taxes on 60% of the value of their home. And they have access to the equity for the full value of the home, whereas a home worth $400,000 would tend to be assessed at full market value that less wealthy household is is is paying a disproportionate share of funding our city. So, you know, this relates to the budget. Of course, you know, our city costs over $100 million a year to operate. And, you know, inequities in our tax code add up to thousands of dollars per family. And so we have urgent tax matters to address, just making sure that the system as it's written, you know, as it is enforced and is is is working the way it should. Before we even think about improving the system, adding an income component, adding an occupancy component, looking at vacancy taxes, revisiting the franchise fee, moving towards a land value tax, there are all sorts of improvements to the tax code that, you know, ultimately will take probably years to implement, some of which will require, you know, the state to review. But I think for for this year, just making sure that, you know, appraised values are, you know, assessed values are fair, that there are that we're addressing major inequities in the system would be a good start. I'd also like to see things like strengthening the NPAs, other democratic process reforms, publicly funded elections, paying counselors more. So there's a whole host of democratic process reforms that I think, you know, will take some time to implement. So we'll look at that. I think after after the budget, I would also like to see us revisit the ceasefire resolution related to the genocide in Gaza. There are other measures, you know, related to that crisis and other crises that I think are appropriate for the council to weigh in on. Of course, I am aware of the reality of the number of seats the Democrats have and how, you know, we need to persuade them that, yeah, that the city, the values of the city have been expressed in this election, particularly in the mayoral result. And we need to persuade Democrats that, you know, fixing broken systems does cause some harm to people, to businesses, to those who are currently benefiting from systems being broken and that that privilege is not a privilege worth protecting. I mean, one of the reflections that I've got with the idea of focusing on the budget, you know, and making that in a way is a sole focus is that we actually can't just do that. I mean, it's a trick to be able to make good governance and be bold and visionary. It's it's a trick to be able to deal with the budget process at the same time as you're advancing things that take a long time. So the budget process, for example, has in it the possibility of us actually doing decent studies on progressive tax reform, decent studies, if we want to do it through the budget process for democratic reforms like the the payment of city counselors. I mean, and it is clear for anybody who's out there, you know, I've talked to so many people say thank you, thank you for doing this. I don't know how you can do this job. And, you know, I'm lucky I'm retired. I'm the only one of y'all who has made it to, you know, the ripe old age of going on 71 in May. And so I'm blessed with the opportunity to do this. I actually did it when I was working and had a small child. But average people, you know, don't really understand and have the the time to do the work that is expected and demanded expected to be able to just do the things that need to be done so that you are reading all of the the documents that are in front of you so you can make an educated decision and demanded of you by our constituents who are calling and saying, you know, this hillside terrorist pothole is like breaking my car and I don't have enough money for food this month. So tell me how I'm supposed to pay for it when you're sitting in the street is breaking my car. So we've got to be able to bring these things into the hopper. The stuff around climate all doesn't take a backseat to June. I mean, that's why we're elected now. We do the budget. But all these things are July. All these things we can start to begin to work on the process for doing things. And we should. And then it's a question of our capacity to do them our priorities. So but we start to introduce them. And part of it is in the budget, making sure that things are in the budget that allow us to do the work like the McNeill stuff requires it for efficiencies and for studies of the forestry practices and for beginning a process of changing the system that we've got down there, what we're going to burn, how we generate power, you know, all of that is in the McNeill resolution on the district energy. It's all something that the majority of the council, I think, yeah, virtually ever. No, there's only six. I was the one who who supported you know, who passed that and all of those things need budget allocations. So there's this link between them that we'll need to continue to be focused on. And Emma, of course, has a transition period to get up to speed two. So we got that. You started talking about public safety as being the priority. What is your So we're still waiting for the finalization of assignments, committee assignments, I hope to be in the Public Safety Committee. Again, and really work on some initiatives that I wasn't allowed to. I had some disappointments. I had pushed the the public safety resolution that was passed on October 10. I pushed the concept of having community forums meant to educate people about what is going on in our city about how the state's attorney's office works and just providing information and data to people. But I wasn't allowed to speak. And I wasn't allowed to help say who should be part of it. So we had two good forums where there was and they're still worth watching because there's still a lot of information there. But I would like to do a third forum. And without the support of the outgoing administration, that just wasn't possible. And you didn't get that you weren't getting that support. I wasn't getting that support. They were like, Yeah, we're done with that, which is regrettable because I got the idea of the forums was really meant to to allow people to talk about what they were experiencing. Downtown business employees, business owners, and people who work for the city of early didn't really happen at those things. There was a dog and pony show. It did not happen at those things. And I had the idea came from a conversation with one of the librarians and a member of our fire department, you know, the fire the member of the fire department started that conversation. And the fire department wasn't even invited to those forums. So it was a big oversight. And I think also, we really need to do a better job of educating the community about harm reduction. There is a lot of pushback because people are tired, they're exhausted, they're angry, compassion fatigue, as it's put, you know, the lock them up. I mean, how are we talking about locking up people when we don't fully have recovery on demand, right for people who want it. So I think also we have to look at the bigger picture across this country, we jail more people than anybody in the world, we've had this war on drugs. And it hasn't worked. So we have seen some really positive results with harm reduction tactics, and we have to continue to do more. We need overdose prevention centers there were hearings today, and the legislature. We, we, if we don't want people shooting up in the streets, we need to tell them where they can go. And where they can go, it would be an environment where they would feel safe, where people would protect them from overdosing, and then also establish relationships, treat them like they're human beings. So many people are acting the way they are, because they're really disconnected from their community. And if you peep, treat people like trashed, and that's the way they're going to act. Simple things is saying you can come in, you can do this here, we can also check, we can check what they're using. Having the information about what drugs are in our community is really valuable. So someone lets you test a little bit of what they're using. That is valuable information that we need, allowing people to to use the toilet, right? What one of the things we hear all the time are just how people in the garages and buildings are relieving themselves because they have no place to go. We know that the businesses have been forced to close their bathrooms, Ben and Jerry's close their bathrooms, and they did a public statement of why they had to do it. And they said Burlington needs an overdose prevention center. So it's that type of care. We need to fund the fire department's community response team. It is shown to be very effective. And that's a budget issue now before before we just sort of continue that, Merrick, I know that you've got to go. And this part of the service that you've got, you know, that you're already doing, not even elected just, you know, not you've been elected, but you're not even serving yet. So and what is the item that you're taking up at the MPA tonight? Yeah, so at the MPA tonight, and hopefully I'll make it there in time for that, we are discussing moving the location of the MPA from the Sharon Busher conference room in City Hall, which is not in Ward 8 to a location in Ward 8. I am going to suggest a couple of options. The one I would be most satisfied with is moving it to Waterman Hall on the UVM campus, because it is a centralized location in between the Ward 8 parts of UVM campus and the non UVM parts of Ward 8. And another option, of course, would be Fletcher Free Library. It's a it's a it's a community building, not just for Ward 8, but for the entire city. And while it is far from a lot of Ward 8, particularly campus, it's still a great location. But yeah, okay. Well, as you you've got to get down there and do do the people's business. So thank you very much. You take your mic off and and have a good trip down there. And good luck making that happen. Great. Um, let's do let's just go back a little bit for public safety. We and then we talk more about housing and UVM and taxes and democracy, etc. Um, yeah, so just place us in places temporarily, yes, in what we can and should expect to be doing in the next, say, four months. Well, immediately budget wise, we definitely want to continue support the professional positions that are in the police department. So we are those are what those are the CSLs of community service liaisons, also the other position, community service officers who are not sworn officers, but can handle certain types of incidents. And they've been effective, both of those. Yes. And one of the things that I really want is to be able to provide the data more. I think that the data should be part of a monthly report so people can see the percentage of incidents that they're involved in. Now the community service liaisons, it's any data we see for them will probably be a little bit of an undercount because of the way they work with individuals. Their incidents are not quite one and done. You know, they are working with people in a way to help them get services that they might need to avoid any future interactions with the police. But still, we can we can see something about what they're they're touching, but it just doesn't show up on reports. And that's really been that's been a peeve of mine. Like I think we need more information and not less information. I think the fire department's done a really great job about tracking and providing data for what they're doing. A lot of people still don't understand the work the fire department's been doing and the fact that the medical, you know, they have the EMTs. So those are budget and so funding them is absolutely essential for this. Yes, because the the community response team was not in the original budget. So we've like found money from different places. The people that are part of that team. Right now, it's voluntary overtime. That's that. That's great that they're stepping up to do that, but not a sustainable model. So we have to look at the staffing levels there. And there's so much I could go on about the fire department. I was in there four hours this past Friday night having a great discussion about things that they were concerned about. And I look forward to also talking more about that publicly and educate. Nothing goes on. There are no fires. Well, actually, there are and the responses that they're doing to medical emergencies, the overdose crisis, the rapid, the community response team has, you know, they do womb kits. They give womb kits to people and other types of information. So they're they're out there trying to have the relationships. I want to see the CARES department, which is our Burlington's Cahoots model, we're getting closer. We've budgeted for a vehicle, the interviews for the personnel are going on. So we're getting really close to getting that. But there's going to be a lot of things we're going to have to look at. There's certain, you know, the police department needs new tasers. We have very outdated tasers and cameras to and we have issues with cameras wearing arrears to the company that host saving all that data from the cameras. So we're going to have to look at getting out of arrears and how we're funding it going forward. In addition to continuing to work on more ideas for recruitment, but and I am community engagement. I still am not happy with the level of community engagement. I think there can be so much more done to do an outreach to the community. And I said, you know, I said, I will help with cream with a cop. You want to bring back cream with a cop? I'll help you bring back cream with a cop. I will do it. We'll get the fire department involved. We'll get the community involved. We'll get people to donate. I don't think we have to make that a budget item. I think we can get the community to do it. But in return, we have to see other types of engagement to address real issues of trust in certain communities. And I on one hand, you can say, oh, we can't do it because we don't have the staffing to do it. We can't afford not to do it. And with technology and social media, there's ways to do things. There really is. We just have to be on point about doing it and have the will to do that and have the will to do that. Thank you. Let's let's turn to you, Carter. Yeah. UVM is an elephant in your room. The city's room. Yes. But in particular, in the Ward 1 bedroom, so to speak, it's our it's maybe it's it's our house, but it would be your your bedroom, so to speak. And there was big conversation related to it in the neighborhood code. Just talk about about that. Yeah, I think there's a certainly UVM, the MOU. I think folks are dissatisfied and don't feel that it sort of meets the needs of our community. I was clear. I would not have voted for it. I thought I was I thought it was a sellout. It was terrible. Yeah, no, I don't think it's adequate. And then those sort of concerns and suspicions were, I think, confirmed in many ways. If folks haven't looked at the the auditor's report that Doug Hoffer did with Tim Asch and one of the person their name is slipping, but really looked at this and said, is this actually enforceable? Will this have the intended result that that I think we all share, which is UVM building more housing for students and housing more of their students, are the numbers that we're using when we talk about the actual impact on the vacancy rate, that gap between how many students are currently being housed versus how many folks are in our rental market or in our housing market overall, we're just not accurate. So I think if anybody's interested in that issue, that audit, it's only 12 pages. It's not an audit in and of itself, but it's sort of a breakdown of the issue. I'm blanking on the word now, but it's okay. But yeah, so I think it's very manageable. So I'd encourage folks to read through that. I read through it in a half hour. It was really, really interesting and really helpful. So I think that issue I'm going to have to dig into and hopefully engage around in Ward 1. I also think, you know, I've been gotten multiple emails from from a couple folks. You know who you are around the UVM MC MOU, which is also in Ward 1, so want to dig in there. Make sure really that, again, I view the role as trying to best as I can facilitate engagement from my ward on decisions that are going to most impact us from folks from across the political spectrum. And so really wanting to give opportunities for engagement to constituents in that way. I mean, for me, just sitting where I have over the last couple of years and seeing the UVM MOU come up. What struck me was basically two things about it. The first thing is that it totally ignored their graduate enrollment. That is their growth center. Anybody, you know, and you could see it, you don't need to get the documents to see that just what UVM is doing is really focused on this post graduate work and research and grants and all this big stuff. Very, very important. But they housed up until I think just their new developments are just going to do it. 120 graduate students and that was a number that they were housing in 1970. So they haven't made any significant commitment to housing for like 50 years. While they've expanded by like over a thousand, maybe as many as 1500 grad students and they're talking about really exploding that. And the second thing is although they want to have zoning changes, all of which I think all of which would be in Ward 1, but if not all there may be some in Ward 8 as well, so that they could build housing, there was not a commitment to actually build the significant amount of housing that is needed. And so this idea that they're going to attack it to, you know, enrollment growth, undergraduate growth from a very high number to begin with so that they're not fundamentally addressing the housing deficit that has been caused by their, I'm going to call it, over-enrollment of and under housing of grad students and undergraduate students since 1970. You know, those were the big issues. And the reason that they came to the table, they weren't even coming to the table. But the reason that they did come to the table is because they are negatively impacted by a housing crisis. And, you know, I'm glad that they're sharing the pain that all of us are and they should be a much bigger part of the solution as far as I'm concerned. I think, oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I was just going to say, I mean, and at a very, very basic level, even if folks aren't digging into all the details, you know, they are offering a five-year commitment for what they're offering and they're asking for zoning changes, which is, you know, decades-long. Perpetual. Perpetual, yeah. So I think any sort of reasonable glance at this, it just doesn't pass that that basic test of fairness. And yeah, there is a real breakdown of trust around, you know, many residents just don't feel like there's genuine engagement and feels like a lot of the public sessions are more sort of, we can check that box and move on. So going back to your point earlier, Milo, around really wanting to improve public engagement generally, I know Jonathan who's on our Ward 1 MPA has been working on a resolution with other folks to strengthen the MPAs hopefully and start to lay out sort of what big decisions do MPAs need to know about and have an opportunity to give feedback on before the council and the city at large moves on them. So I think that's a really promising idea. Yeah, and I want to address that in a moment, but just going back to UVM-MOU, I have been like from the get-go, when I first read it, I was just, I was insulted. I was insulted. I, I, um, You're the triples. Oh my god, the force triples, you have 30% of your undergraduates in living in conditions that don't meet our housing code, right? The housing code says that if one person lives somewhere you got to have X amount of space, if two people then you have had additional space, if three you have to have additional space, they don't meet our housing code. Well, guess what? Apparently they're exempt from it. You know, and I found that out and I was like, what? And we know that there are stresses and there are people who want to live in triples to save money. So we're not saying that there isn't that demand, but there's not 30%. And some of these young people don't even get three sets of furniture because there's not the space. And we know from people who work on campus that they are strained to properly take care of these young people. We know that they're facing food insecurity. I was in a meeting last week, they, uh, February of 2024. They did a survey of, uh, I think it was 1,220 students. Yeah, that's a lot of off-campus students who said 39% reported food insecurity. Now 2017, it was 24%. So this has gone up 15%. And they reported very high numbers, uh, 30% with not being able, having trouble paying utilities and then another, I can't remember the exact amount, but rent was also up there. And we know what is happening with these rents. Um, but the university doesn't. The university has shown time and time again through the representatives that they have negotiating this agreement don't understand. And they don't understand the pushback. I personally been concerned about the level of entitlement. It is very clear they're a very important educational institution here. Um, they're part of the fabric of the city of Vermont. They are a large employer. All of that is true. All of that is appreciated. But I feel at times, especially, um, UVM presidents, his, his opinion piece that he put in Vermont Digger, I felt was very tone death. Like, hey, you know, we do all this stuff. So yeah, I, I, I just feel that they don't know it's affecting their own, their own student body. And the feelings toward the UVM, MOU, and the feelings toward neighborhood code are not anti-student. You know, people say, oh, you're demonizing students. We're not demonizing students. We're trying to protect students. We're trying to protect, they're bringing more and more young people here, and there is no housing for them. And, um, I, I guess, just to sum it up, the, the idea that they're going to start with, um, the enrollment that they had in fall of 23, I think that's insulting. It shows once again, you don't know what's going on here. The idea that, oh, you, we never knew you wanted to include graduate students. You should be including all your students that you can't house. And I think they really, um, I'm going to be as so bold to say, I think they would could stand to have a different negotiator, um, someone who is familiar with Burlington, who understands what the community needs, who understands what their students need. You know, you've got food pantries on campus because of what's going on. So, um, I, I feel that way. And then the other part too is to continue the community engagement and be really real about discussing and learning from the community. And I think, uh, with regards to other things like the community code, I have complained over and over and over and over and over again about how the administration doesn't properly, the outgoing administration didn't properly communicate with people. But with regards to the neighborhood code, there were actually a lot of meetings. There were a lot of meetings. There was a web page that was kept updated. There was, uh, MPAs, uh, sometimes multiple visits. I think people who did look at it, uh, or attend some of these meetings or watch them on Zoom, saw what was being discussed, but didn't think it was going to apply to them. I think one, that was part of it. And number two, people need to, uh, learn to go to the city's website, use the calendar, adopt a meeting. You don't have to watch the meeting. You can read the minutes. You can see what's being discussed to have an idea, because I kept hearing that over and over again, once they said, okay, this is what we've come up with, and it got warned, and everyone felt like, oh, this is all happening too fast, when in fact it's been going on for months. So, um, part of it is, is really saying to our community, we're going to teach you how to get access to the information. But, you know, with that old adage, you can take the horse to the water where you can't even drink. You know, we need people to be willing to drink and, and, and, and keep informed, because the neighborhood code had a lot of public engagement. But I think just once they came out with what it was going to be finally, people didn't, well, no, we don't want that. And, um, well, we're going to have a lot, we're going to have a lot of opportunity to, to deal with all the issues related to that neighborhood code. There's a laundry list of things that are left undone, and so it's why I asked for what the process is going to be going forward at the end of the meeting. Absolutely. Because if you don't do that, then, if you don't know, if you don't explain, if you don't set it out, then the same problems get replicated. Joe, talk a little bit more about the not so close to the ground hanging fruit that relates to raising your revenues, your ideas. It is not too early to talk about the, you know, you were talking about a land tax, or a vacancy, and there are other things. I'm not meaning to say you want to focus on those too, but start, let's start this conversation here with what are these ideas and what could they do to make the property tax system that we have here fair, more based on an ability to pay, broader, and more sustainable, so that we're not engaged in a austerity death cycle, death spiral, because, you know, if you don't have the money, then it just gets worse and things get more expensive, so talk to us a little bit. Sure, and you guys were just talking about the housing crisis, and of course that relates to tax policy, because we fund our city mostly through property taxes. So some, a little bit less low hanging fruit than just making sure the appraisal process is fair, would include a vacancy tax. We have blighted vacant properties, including a duplex around the corner from where I live that's been unoccupied for decades, you know, we charge the same amount for a building no matter who owns it, no matter how it's being used. If a millionaire owns it, if a snowbird, right, who files their state income taxes in Florida owns it, they get taxed the same way that you or I do. And so, you know, we could copy the state homestead program, which by the way your homestead declaration is due on Monday, if you haven't filed it yet for this coming year, which gives homeowners who live in their home and earn less than a certain amount, a break on their property taxes. We should, you know, that's a break for the education. Exactly, right. So yeah, sorry, that's that's a break for the 75% of your tax bill that goes to the state to help fund the education program. The city of Burlington has a completely flat rate on paper. So that would be, I think, some low hanging fruit. A snowbird saves five, 10, $15,000 on state income tax by filing their taxes wherever they file their taxes. And then the state of Vermont taxes some of that back. And the state of Burlington says, oh, all right, I'll just tax none of that back. So that's one opportunity, the vacancy taxes. So just, and we'll do it like each and every one of these, that would require a charter change because right now we don't have the authorization to have that differential rate, right? I believe so. Yeah, I mean, having looked at the charter, it says municipalities can can set their rate, but it, I mean, it doesn't explicitly say how you can do it. I'm not a lawyer. And my understanding is, yeah, that it probably is a charter. I mean, we've got something, the 120% assessment, we've got something in the charter that allows us to assess commercial buildings at 120% of fair market value, whereas we do residential at 100%. And that was actually something that Bernie Sanders brought in when we were in a similar financial situation in the early 80s. It was challenged in court. It's in the charter and it was upheld as a proper classification of taxes. But it would need that. I personally believe that even though you have to go to Montpelier, that this is worth the effort. And we need to continually do that and continually push that window open, you know, more and more. Yeah, and an example of something we would not have to go to Montpelier for is we can do a reappraisal whenever we want. So right now properties are assessed based on April 2021 revenues. And for commercial properties, that makes a big difference because revenue is part of the equation. And so right now we have a situation where the golf course gets a 40% tax cut, and they'll continue to get that tax cut this year, next year, and so forth until we restart that process. So that's an example of where we could do some additional revenue raising. We could do, you know, a partial reassessment just of commercial properties, for instance. And commercials actually were reduced during the pandemic because incomes were down and they were using the income approach to valuation. And that was a unique situation. It's maybe... So frustrating, forgive me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just the fairness, the equity of it. When we think about working people who were, so many people were affected by COVID. And so many people had their income affected by COVID. And to not have that taken into consideration, and then now that we're out of COVID, to not have this have a relook, to relook at it. Yeah, that to me was a failure of leadership and something that we need to do because it's really a huge equity issues. I, you know, Monday night I was going on about equity, I'll continue to go on about equity. This is our job, it's progressives. It's really, oh my gosh, I was just really surprised by a lot of things that were said about it. But it's funny because the budget is important in relationship to that because you need money to do a reappraisal, even if it's a partial reappraisal. And so this is where we have to focus on that to be able to understand when it is that we're going to be able to do that and plan for it. The reason that this last reappraisal was so hard is that we kicked that can down the road for 15 years. Yeah, and a lot of localities do it every year. And, you know, I think the state actually changed the rule. I think you have to do it every seven years now. But, you know, there's no reason to wait until 2028 when a bunch of the city is getting a discount. I mean, we should have a system that is fair, a system that is taxing based on current revenues, current values. Yeah, I mean, a huge amount of the tax increase that is going for the education portion of our taxes is a direct result of the just the increase in supposed value of the property. It probably is true, but it doesn't help anybody if their houses or value skyrocket because you get nowhere to go. But when they looked at it, we are being taxed because we have dropped from a reappraisal that was at 100% like two years ago to like in the 80s. 80s, yeah. This is the reason why we need to shift towards income and away from property tax valuations. I would also like to see us move towards the land value tax. So right now, structures are taxed the same as land. You know, on your tax bill, you'll see separate valuations for property and for land in some localities, some states around the country, tax land more than the tax structures which removes or mitigates a disincentive to develop. So people have been talking about how the neighborhood code, the zoning changes, is going to be helpful for growing the grand list, increasing the tax base, more development as a result of more relaxed zoning. Well, another way to do that exact same thing is to tax land more than you tax structures because then when somebody adds an accessory dwelling unit, when someone builds an extension, they don't have to also deal with, in addition to the cost of getting the construction project done, the permitting, they don't also have to deal with as large of a tax increase. So who does that in the United States? So the state of Pennsylvania allows localities to do it. So Pittsburgh had it for almost a hundred years. For instance, I think Detroit recently passed a similar measure as well. All right. There you go. Let's turn and talk about other priorities. We could talk about public safety if you want, but this is an opportunity to... There is so much. I think we're good on public safety right now, but it will continue to be my focus. Keeping my eye on Decker Towers, we recently discussed some issues that we have in wards two and three. And data, data, data, because we have to have data driven strategies and that cannot be overstated. I also, in equity, I hope to continue on the committee for the RIB department. Racial equity, inclusion and belonging. And you know, a lot of people focus on the R, but the E is really at play. The E is really at play. And as that department's been through a lot. So I hope to support it and have some conversations about what's happening there. And I hope to continue to have this... This is some conversations around the neighborhood code really showed how we're... When people talk about being vulnerable to development, they are. At any time, someone's neighbor can sell it their home. At any time. And it may be limited now to what they can build, but neighborhood code allowed them to build, you know, bigger structures. But that can happen at any time. At any time, if a predatory buyer comes into the area, they can choose whether or not they want to sell to them. Or if there are going to sell their house, they can choose if they want to sell it to a family. People can make those decisions. These assumptions that they will only sell to predatory buyers, only sell to developers. That's because housing is for profit. People are stretched, so they're trying to get as much as they can. We have all these things that are influencing. And some people also be very hesitant about change. We heard a lot of that. Oh, you're going to... My neighborhood's going to be messed up. Almost as if it was going to happen overnight. And I was just upset with some of these terms of being, you know, vulnerable to certain change when individuals own their homes, right? They own their property. And we have people sleeping in the streets. We have young people evacuating the city because they can't afford to live here. They can go somewhere else, pay the same rent, get more for what they're paying for, and have a higher paying job and better benefits. That's just facts. And we have so many young people who are really for neighborhood code because they saw it as a way to still potentially be able to stay in the city, to have their families in the city. And that's a very real thing. So we had to figure out how to bring people together because there was some division that really concerned me. And I did read there was a significant petition. Was it 300-something names of people who were against it? And I looked. I don't know about you guys. I went and looked and I'm like two, three, two. I'm like, I'm not seeing twos and threes. And there was another petition, not as many people signed it for, but I'm saying twos, three, war two, war three, one, two, three. So I think that when we look about what's happening in the city and what the concerns are of people in different wards feeling pressures, especially renters, renters are feeling extraordinary pressures. I just, it just continues to really disturb me. I feel very blessed that I own. I'm always concerned about property taxes, but you're able to control your mortgage to a certain point, especially when interest rates change. So I think that'll be important. I think there's some healing there that needs to occur. Well, part of what I'm hearing is our need to figure out ways to help people get those opportunities to buy houses, to protect tenants from massive either displacement or these massive rent increases that are happening on a very frequent basis, trying to figure out other means of bringing social capital to bear to be able to build housing. So I'm curious as to what you guys are hearing, thinking about us making those steps with the housing market. Because in my mind, the housing as a commodity as opposed to a human right and a human necessity is at the core of much of the problems because it's just an investment, you know, and it's treated as an investment just like a share of a stock. Well, this relates to the tax stuff that I was talking about. Like people view it as an investment because it's not taxed as an investment. I mean, we could tie owner occupancy to property taxes and we don't. So, you know, we can disincentivize that over time, but it's going to take time to be felt by renters. You know, we also could pursue rent stabilization, but just cause eviction is still, I believe, sitting on the wall in Montpelier. So it is difficult to identify, you know, silver bullets. There already is the shared equity program, right, with Champlain Housing Trust. Asset prices are already inflated. It is difficult to identify something that is really going to relieve pressure on rents in the next year or two, which is what constituents want to hear. I got a call today from a constituent who, yeah, is just flabbergasted, just the person has a good job and just doesn't understand how they're supposed to make ends meet and be able to eat. It also affects our economy. Like that is when we talk about having foot traffic, but people aren't buying. Average Berlin Tonians are not shopping downtown. They're not. My family is definitely not. They're not. We're going to coffee shops. We're maybe getting a bite to eat. Average Berlin Tonians are not shopping downtown. Cannot afford it. You were sure? Well, no, I was just going to say, yeah, I think there's a real opportunity coming out of... I was glad to see it felt like a consensus vote on neighborhood code and like having some of the concerns recognized, but then also moving forward because we know that infill and building more and increased housing stock is so crucial. And I think the particular piece I'm excited to work on moving forward is just looking at inclusionary zoning mechanisms that we have on the books, but also when you talk about building in the backyard of an existing lot, etc., how can we just make sure that we are incentivizing or putting money into shared equity program through CHT, incentivizing home ownership because I think the other piece of this is figuring out in this conversation how to prioritize home ownership, long-term anti-poverty measure, but also we need more families. Like we're building this high school and we're not going to have the students to fill it. We're not going to have the students to fill it. Yeah, and that's a statewide problem. So I think really thinking about how we can encourage families and part of that's housing and that's a big part of it. I think, you know, everybody who I went to school with has 90% leave because of housing. The other piece is wages. You know, my partner is a nurse and we heard some discussion ironically at the neighborhood code meeting or the Monday nights council meeting about how we have workforce development issues and nurses aren't coming in and I'll just say yes and overpaying traveling nurses and not paying our nurses who live here in Vermont is a big piece of that. You're starting to get a push in other hospitals around the state for the building of workplace housing as part of the contract that they have with their nurses, with their organized labor. Yeah, yeah. This is something that I think we can make some progress on and I would like myself to get heads together to be able to come up with a list of possible reforms to increase the amount of money that we have to the affordable housing, the trust fund, the housing trust fund to protect people in their homes and give them even rights of, you know, a first refusal when things happen or the right of return. Right. Yeah, and I agree with you. I mean, it goes back fundamentally to taxes. I think we have to I agree that especially with neighborhood code, I mean, one of the things we talked about or the council talked about on Monday night and I think the public was talking about was the expansion of the grand list as a way to depress taxes. I also think, you know, residentially, you get less of an impact versus commercial. And so we've got to be mindful of that, I think. But yeah, it's about tax reform. Like we we can't live in a city where the Burlington Country Club is getting a massive tax break. They're getting a break on their water bill at the same time. Folks can afford to make ends meet like 60 percent of the city rents. Like I don't want to continue, I think the trajectory around where folks are just perpetually, you know, for their entire lifetime, forced to rent. Not that some folks don't want to rent, but a lot of folks are trying to get into ownership. I'm ownership. Yeah. One of the things that I noticed in this part of the conversation we had on neighborhood code is the difference between a person who is running out an apartment in their own house or they've got one or two, maybe they have like two apartments in their house. And that's how they pay for their mortgage, right? So it's part of that, intergenerational wealth building that people have and investors coming in. And I've just, I mean, anecdotally, and it would be good to study that, have just seen a real rise in investor-owned properties here for the, solely for profit and for flipping. In 1986, when I first was elected, we passed a charter change that the legislature rejected, but it was an anti-speculation tax that said that you had to hold properties for a certain amount of time or you were going to pay a fee or, you know, an extra, a surcharge tax. If you were flipping it, we were having a lot of flipping problems then, you know. And that's the type of thing where you're not going to try to make the, make it attractive for this flipping, which is just constantly inflating the values. And it's hurting. It's hurting spaces. It's hurting businesses as well, like the smaller businesses that might not be in the immediate downtown when I think of what we have in the old North End, I get concerned when you hear about new building owners, you know, what are they going to do? So I think having something in place for that protects owner-occupied is so important because we have to do something that the flipping and the dramatic, the increases are just, you know, I used to think that people were exaggerating, but now I've talked to so many people with so many specific examples of hundreds of dollars. Five hundred, six hundred, nine hundred, someone posted this morning, you know, after being in the same apartment for a while, great, you know, they felt they're good tenant, great relationship with the landlord and all of a sudden nine hundred dollars more a month. It's, I had a landlord a very long time ago say to me, owning real estate, owning rental property in Burlington, when you, when things are going good, it's like you own a printing press, like the treasury printing press, right? You just print dollars. When it's not going so well, it's more like the money pit, right? And, you know, that goes to the disinvestment that we've got. We have got about four minutes. We have got four of us right here. So let's go and just take a little bit to, you know, give a, you know, give your closing thoughts to people. Okay. Well, one thing I want to share with the audience is we're eager for you guys to get involved. It is very easy, easier than I thought it was just a few months ago to get involved. I never imagined running for office and policy development takes a lot of time. It takes, you know, a bunch of groups of ordinary citizens sitting down together and doing the work. You know, we, most of us have jobs and aren't, even if we were working on this all the time, are not going to on our own be able to develop all these policies that we've been talking about. So I would encourage anyone to reach out to any of us to sit down. And yeah, I'll leave it at that. There you go. Carter. Yeah, it's good to get together and chat with you all. Yeah, I'll just say I'm incredibly grateful to, to award one voters for, for entrusting me. I know I'm a, a younger city councilor and, and, you know, hope that I can demonstrate over the next two years that you all made a good choice. And again, like Joe said, I mean, one of my main goals is really just involving constituents in the process as much as possible, making sure folks know when, what is happening, make sure I'm answering emails. So if I do nothing else right, hopefully I can do that. And, and if I don't hold me, hold me to it. There you go. Milo. People. You got one more, you got one more year. You're, you're elected and then you're up for re-election next year. Next year. Next year. And I'm going to run. I'm going to say it now. There you go. Just put it out there. You heard it here first. Burlington Progressives TV. It has taken so long to learn so much and I'm still learning. I just feel I can be more effective now. People over politics. People over politics. That is how we want to lead. It has been politics over people. I have been really distressed at certain votes. I felt like more or less we're holding the line trying to elevate the conversation. It's been amazing to me to watch people make votes that they know aren't good for the community. It's, I'm like, so for me, it's people over politics. And that's it. That's pretty powerful. I'm really excited to be working with all of you and Merrick. Emma, as a new mayor. The opportunities for doing some new and innovative work are really great. It's sort of like unleashing things. And yet, I've been doing this stuff for a really long time. It was in three administrations for 20 years. So I know how hard it is to keep doing things and how much slower everything can be and how engagement and collaboration and making sure that we can try to get a consensus if we can. So I'm hopeful that we will bring to the table a spirit that says we can do great things. We will do great things and join us in that. Thank you all. This has been another great conversation on Burlington Progressives TV. We look forward to talking to you again next time.