 Good evening and welcome to Tiskey sour. Thank you for tearing yourselves away from the gorgeous sunshine outside to join us this evening I prob I promise we will make it all worth it for you some really big stories tonight The government again have been found to have broken the law and we have a great guest on that One of the people who took them to court very very excited for that and we have some other stories which you know Whether or not they're significant is up to you. It's more about the the ferrari Around them that is telling I'm talking about the decision of some Oxford students to change a picture on the wall The initial action doesn't tell us about much about the country the response to it does We've also got Gareth Southgate and an update on COVID-19. I'm of course joined by Dahlia. How are you doing? I'm doing good. Thank you Michael I've been sunbathing all during my lunch break today, and I just feel immediately so much better like my the vitamin D has been like Absorbed and like my body's missed it. My body has missed it My notice it's incredible. Everyone looks amazing. Everyone's smiling But most importantly You guys are here watching Tiskey sour. You know the score if You haven't already do hit the subscribe Button and you can tweet your comments on the hashtag Tiskey sour The government have lost their second case in the high court surrounding contracts issued during the coronavirus pandemic Back in February Matt Hancock was found to have acted unlawfully by failing to publish details of contracts for PPE Today Michael Gove was found to have broken the law when he granted a contract to the firm to the PR firm public first To test COVID-19 Messaging without putting it out to tender now the company directors had close Associations with both Gove and Dominic Cummings and the judge today ruled this meant the granting of the contract gave rise to apparent bias Now as in most of these cases the defense on the part of the government was to say look We're in the middle of a pandemic. How could we have been expected to follow usual procedures? There was a pressing priority which Overrode Really those normal processes now the judging question. Mrs. Justice O'Farrell did recognize Some of those points in her ruling. She didn't say those arguments were completely ridiculous Let's go to the the relevant part the fair minded and informed observer would have appreciated that there was an urgent need For research through focus groups on effective communications in response to the COVID-19 crisis And that those research services were required Immediately They would have appreciated that it was vital that the results and conclusions from the research were reliable And that mr. Cummings was uniquely placed given his experience and expertise To form a rapid view on which organization might best be able to deliver those urgent Requirements his professional and personal connections with public first did not preclude him from making an impartial assessment in this regard So she's saying you know to some degree the government's argument is reasonable. However The judge ruled that even in these exceptional circumstances that did not justify Only considering one single company To do this job So justice O'Farrell said the defendant's failure to consider any other research agency by reference to experience expertise Availability or capacity would lead a fair minded and informed observer to conclude that there was a real possibility Or a real danger that the decision maker was Biased now that's the basis on which this was ruled to have been a decision made Unlawfully now the ruling is specifically against Michael Gove specifically for the minister of as he Was and is minister for the cabinet office But of course Dominic Cummings was central to that decision to award these contracts to public first. They were worth 560,000 pounds now Dominic Cummings now a very active twitter user now He's outside of Downing Street responded to the ruling almost immediately today on twitter He said of the ruling In 2014 I explained how sw1 programs dysfunctional and poor performance Most big things on covet were here including today's issues destructive feedback between eu procurement judicial review Whitehall Me with all my foresight I wrote in 2014 how judicial reviews into the procurement process Is a problematic thing. It's dysfunctional. I'm not just saying this opportunistically. I wrote it in my blog in 2014, I'm not sure Perhaps he added to it like he did his his previous comments on coronavirus, but um, I can't confirm either way He goes on Um, the the dude in the judicial review summary They say there is no suggestion of actual bias But instead of telling officials to focus on the worst crisis since 1945 a disease which was doubling in two to three days I should have told officials to focus on creating a potempkin paper trail to negate campaigners claiming appearance of bias Now he goes on to say that if he'd focused on the paperwork instead of making immediate decisions He would have Allowed more people to die. He also suggests that this judgment will lead to worse decision making in the future So he says the court is telling sw ones. That's west minster Even in a crisis like a once a century pandemic your real focus should always be the paper trail There is already a huge destructive problem and today's judgment will make it even worse if covet doesn't justify focus on outcomes over process Nothing will he's making a very clear defense of his actions He's saying that the court's judgment will just mean The bureaucrat civil servants and politicians are more interested in making a paper trail and doing paperwork than in saving Lives Is that a good argument? Well earlier today I spoke to jolly on more founder of the good law project which brought the case against michael gove Well, it certainly should lead to more accountable government, shouldn't it? I mean in any Normal country in any functioning Mature democracy you would expect to finding By a high court that a particular contract Was awarded It would appear to a neutral observer through reasons of favoritism To mean that heads roll, but unfortunately as your viewers listeners will know We are no longer a sort of normal functioning democracy Will it lead to more paperwork? I I don't think The answer to that is necessarily Yes, but I suppose I attack really the premise of the question And what Dominic Cummings is saying in those tweets essentially is Look, this is public money Not my money But nevertheless, you can leave it to me To make the right decisions you can trust me not to give Contracts to my friends. You can trust me not to give contracts to people who For example, I think might do party political work on the public dime And I have a problem with that predicate So I don't think one gets to Dominic's question. It's not really a balance between Speed and paperwork. This is public money and he needs to explain Michael Gove needs to explain to those who Whose public money it is taxpayers Why they have spent it in the way in which we haven't and and and and that's fundamentally what this case is about Do you accept to tool the the premise that because it was a pandemic? It was a global emergency. Some of the usual rules could go out the window And do you think that if they had followed all the rules it potentially could have taken longer? but it still would have been worth it because Not being as transparent as you'd like is such a grave Issue that that should override other other considerations or do you just think this whole This whole issue of counterposing speed and paperwork or legality, I suppose is just a misnomer Do you think that's that's just a misunderstanding on the part of Cummings? There is a Balance to be struck here Um, you know, if you're sophisticated and thoughtful about these things What you do is you look at the fact pattern and you try and behave in a responsible way having regard to it, so It's not good enough just to go and buy whatever you want Because stuff's urgent and you know, I mean there are all sorts of ways of making that point one is by looking at um the 350 million pounds of money that we spent on ppe Through placing contracts with pespics, which is the vip lane. I mean we got very little. It's not even clear. We got any Usable ppe. So, you know, there is always a need. There is always a value to Process and I think I would also say The pandemic justifies short circuiting process So far as is necessary to short circuit process in order to Achieve the result that the demands of the pandemic dictates It doesn't mean you can throw the baby out of the bath water It doesn't mean you don't have to follow any process at all and fundamentally, you know, the law is a very sophisticated mechanic through which you interrogate whether those who abandoned elements of process To arrive at outcomes Got that balancing exercise so wrong As to be unlawful I mean, of course, that's not really what this case is about Because in this case The judge said that no one gave any thought to whether or not Someone else could bid for that contract. No one looked at Whether there was any time saving through appointing public first the judge points out that there were other agencies Who were already working for government? rejects government's contention that public first Wouldn't need to be briefed explains that public first in fact did need to be briefed to carry out that this work in the same way as might You government needed to be brief. So again I mean, it's a superficially attractive argument It doesn't stand up to analysis and it doesn't bear examination on on the facts You know, these are intricate nuanced points But they are what real life decision making looks like Even in the midst of the pandemic Especially where you are spending public public money and especially especially Where you are spending public money on your friends and you know, there's no dispute between Dominic Cummings, Michael Gove on the one hand and me on the other That public first were friends of Dominic Cummings and associates of Michael Kev Could you explain what it actually means for the the High Court to have ruled that That Michael Gove and his department have acted unlawfully because you know, lots of people here This is he's acted unlawfully. Why isn't he going to jail? Why isn't he subject to criminal Sanctions so could you you know law for beginners? I suppose it explains the implications when a government department is found guilty of having acted unlawfully if you're running a public law case on the grounds of bias You tend to ask the question whether there is a parent bias In other words, would a reasonable observer think that the contract was awarded through favoritism Because if you show a parent bias That leads to a finding that the contract was unlawful if you're arguing in a different context if you're trying to bring a criminal prosecution for For example, misconduct in public office. You would have to show That there is actual bias We brought a public law case. One of the reasons we bought a public law case is because as members of sort of civil society rather than the police force, we don't have the power to compel the production of evidence by Dominic Cummings by Michael Gauve By number 10 because you know, there's evidence too that number 10 was pushing for contracts to go to public first in Anbury And because we can't compel the production of evidence. It's very difficult for us to get over the very high hurdle of proving Actual bias proving misconduct in public office, which you have to prove sort of beyond reasonable doubt if you want to prove a criminal If you want to prove that there's been a criminal offense committed so No, uh, no one goes to prison in consequence of this decision There should as I've already explained be consequences Um, the effect is to expose Yet another cabinet minister to have acted unlawfully in handling pandemic procurement. The project has a whole slate of cases It should cause a political embarrassment to government. It does make government look Like what it is in the public sphere, which is Irresponsible and law breaking but those are fundamentally political rather than legal costs attached to this decision Jolly on mom the founder of the good law project darlia And this is the second time we've been in this situation The government have been found to have acted unlawfully in the high court They seem fairly confident that they can just brush these these rulings off They can say look it was a pandemic who cares what was legal and what wasn't Of course, this is also not going to be the last time this happens The good law project have a bunch of other cases in the pipeline Do you think this is going to start to cause problems for the government or You know Or not I suppose in a way I really obviously respect what jolly on mom is is doing here But many of the people who were very aggravated by this particular issue were also aggravated, you know About brexit a second referendum political projects that kind of went nowhere Do you do you think this one is is is different? Yeah, I mean it depends right it depends if you know There are movements and an opposition that are going to make good on this But you know, I mean the reason that the Tories can can brush it off that the government can brush it off is because Unfortunately, they hold immense power over the institutions that Make up the state right formally and informally so from you know having this massive majority in the commons to You know very inappropriate proximity to establishment media to you know, even Even I would argue being able to actually govern the talking points in the remit of the opposition unfortunately Um, you know, this is a government that has been defined by its impunity It's you know, it's the character of boris johnson is that sense of you know impunity of buffoonishness of incompetence masked as kind of you know sort of wrapped up in this like Sort of jingoistic, you know, old school form of public school colonial governor style You know reputation um And you know that the courts are probably one of the only in the very few institutions that have you know Albeit in quite a mealy mouth way, you know, occasionally help the government to account but often it's not done with that much enforcement Um, but you know, I think that Cummings is very smart Uh to turn this into a anti bureaucracy point because you know, there's certainly a point to be made that you know bureaucratization doesn't always mean accountability Um, and it also you know Kind of appeals to how much people hate bureaucracy in their own workplaces and how much they feel like it stops them from You know getting on with what they need to do But that's all the distraction from what's from the fact of what's going on here Which is that the government has used this pandemic to enrich their financial allies In a way that has cost a significant number of lives, I would argue and you know, the reason that we have Um such high rates of death deaths per capita, which you know I would argue is the highest of the countries that have kind of comparable economies to to the uk You know, it's not because of paperwork. It's because of bad decision making and bad messaging It's the dithering. It's the locking down too late. It's the not making use of lockdowns to build proper infrastructure It's you know, the long trend of defunding the nhs and redirecting resources Away from patients and healthcare providers and towards sort of busy bodying middle managers You know, it's it's the lack of provisions for precarious workers to actually self-isolate If they need to self-isolate it's you know, and it's not only that but it's It's the issues that actually come directly out of this very problem this culture of impunity and corruption That lies at the heart of how this pandemic has been managed and that falls at the feet of the government and particularly at the feet of comings And a big part of that is you know, and why this court case is so relevant And why it's so sneaky for comings to kind of turn this into an anti-bureaucracy point Is that it's specifically the doling out of essential contracts to private companies that do not have the record Or the demonstrated ability to carry out these essential functions in the middle of a health crisis Whether that's providing through school meals or building a test and trace system And you know, so the problem isn't just the outsourcing of you know, essential functions that should be provided by the public sector Two private companies who you know because of the logic of what a private company is They will scrimp on resources scrimp on what they actually provide for people And pocket the rest as we saw with the school lunches fiasco But it's even if we're going to actually even if we're going to outsource these functions Even if for whatever reason you win the argument on outsourcing, which I don't think is possible You at least have to outsource to companies that Not just companies that you happen to have close connections to but companies that actually have some evidence They can carry out the project that you're outsourcing to them And this is essentially a problem of the government. It's not a problem of bureaucracy. It's not a problem of urgency It's the problem of the government looking at this pandemic Using that sense of emergency and urgency that it creates and seeing dollar signs or pound signs I guess for them and their mates And that is an offer and it's also not only that not only this momentary enrichment But it's also them trying to use this as an opportunity to normalize the idea That essential services, especially those in social and health care Would be more efficient if they were outsourced, you know It's to normalize the idea of outsourcing to private companies These kinds of services that have traditionally been held held by the state and held by the public sector But unfortunately for the government You know, the only thing that's worked in this entire pandemic The only thing that has saved not only the government's ass, but our ass as well Is the vaccination program which was led by the public sector. It was led by the NHS So coming to turning this into some kind of, you know, anti bureaucratic, you know We were putting people before paperwork kind of thing It's a smart move But it's a lie as a lot of the, you know, a lot of what comes out of this government is And we need to hit back at that by emphasizing that the public sector Knows how to get stuff done with people in mind and that the private sector or the private sector knows how to do Is hoard resources resources for its shareholders and its owners at the expense of everyone else And that's the main lesson from this pandemic Not this issue of, you know, paperwork or bureaucracy As much as Cummings is trying to make it about that No, I mean, I I definitely agree with your take on on the level of integrity Cummings has I suppose the vaccines what the government will argue is that yes, the NHS rollout was fantastic As was the NHS reorganizing itself throughout the pandemic But the procurement of the vaccines was by its vaccine task force, which was led by a Investment banker. So that's going to be their argument I don't think that writes all the wrongs of signing all of these contracts with their friends Now shall endresing with a fiverr says what are the chances that the Daily Mail will headline tomorrow's edition with crush the lawbreaking lawmakers It's good headline I think the chances are 1% Because I mean the Daily Mail would take the other Angle on this the Daily Mail are always having to go at judges and saying oh We want the executive to have unrestrained power for some reason I suppose they think because the executive likes the Daily Mail then giving them unrestrained power would be a good thing to do They've got their pal in the top Why have the rest of the system restrain what they can and cannot do? So I would expect the Daily Mail to take the opposite take I could be Wrong if you haven't already do remember to hit that like button if you're enjoying tonight's stream Our next story is about the current situation with covid 19 Now the rise in covid cases caused by the delta variant That's the variant first identified in india means britain now has the highest levels of covid seen since February As you can see from the government dashboard. There were 7,540 cases identified in the past 24 hours pushing the seven day average 66 higher than the previous week Now while that increase on the graph might look small compared to the january peak We know how dramatically things can change when growth is Exponential so what can look like a a little rise can actually be the start What becomes an essentially very very steep rise? That's how exponential growth works We've we should be used to by now the damaging effects that can have now Of course what has been unclear up to this point is whether or not this rise in cases will lead To an increase in hospitalizations now the hope here has been that because The vast majority of the people who were vulnerable to serious disease with covid 19 have been vaccinated Therefore we might have broken the link between cases and hospitalizations There's obviously a good logic to that theory Unfortunately new reporting from the financial time suggests that is only partly The case so while the vaccinations are stopping some Cases translating into hospitalization as a significant section of them. It is Not now these graphs from the ft show hospital hospital admissions by age group in the northwest of England Where the delta variant is most prevalent? So it's on a log scale That's why the y-axis says 5 10 20 50 up to 500 instead of being linear, which would be 10 20 30 now on a log graph A straight upward line means growth is exponential and as you can see among the 18 to 65 age group There is exponential growth in terms of hospital admissions. So not just in cases but in admissions Now as you can see so we're looking at the the chart on the left It's less steep than in January but exponential growth is always very bad And there are now 150 daily admissions or around 150 daily admissions of under 65s in the northwest alone As you can see the big relief Is that in contrast admissions are flat lining among people over 65 Now this is all completely consistent with the idea that vaccines will break the chain between infection and hospitalizations the problem at the moment Is not everyone has been vaccinated and of course that's especially among the younger groups That's why we're seeing hospitalizations among the younger groups, but not the older groups Now what should we take from all of this now personally? I don't think we need to be alarmist I think the vaccine seem to be very very Effective the ft analysis in fact suggests that two doses of a vaccine are about 95 effective at preventing hospital admissions Even with this delta variant and one dose is upwards of 70 percent So we do have a route out of all of this The problem is that not everyone's been vaccinated and I think at times the government are acting a little bit as if they Have been because those 150 daily admissions You know it seems to me completely unnecessary because they are all likely people who you know They might have been vaccinated in three weeks time anyway So if they'd managed to not get infected for another three weeks And they might not have ended up in hospital and ending up with hospital in the hospital Even if you don't die is really really It's a bad thing now. That's not to blame these people personally There are all sorts of reasons why people will get COVID-19 your kid goes to school You know you've gone and ate in a restaurant because the government told you it's fine to eat in a restaurant These are all completely understandable, but to me it does seem That I mean at least in My person i'm going to be very very careful socializing indoors in fact I'm not going to do it until i've been vaccinated and waited three weeks I'm getting my first vaccine tomorrow so three weeks after that some people said you should wait until your second one If it you know if it lowers my chance of serious disease by 70 percent It's kind of good enough for me for now What does frustrate me is the way this is discussed by the government and in the mainstream media Because they still do suggest The big problem when it comes to should we or should we not remove all restrictions on the 21st of june Is whether or not hospitals will be overwhelmed and that leads to paragraphs like this This was from an article in the times today And it says there is particular concern about the strain that Unvaccinated people in their 30s could place on the health service if there is a surge in cases While they are less likely to die than older patients A government source told the times that many of those admitted with the indian variant need oxygen and spent at least two days in hospital now that seems completely crazy to me so say Oh, we've got we've got this big rise in people who are well the age group there was under 65 I would guess that actually you know a lot of them are going to be quite a lot younger than 65 because they're the groups of people Who haven't yet been vaccinated So a lot of relatively young people are going into hospital and potentially icu and the problem for the government isn't that Young healthy people are going into icu. It's that oh, we might need two days worth of oxygen You know they'll block some beds for a little while And it it just seems a completely bizarre way of looking at it the problem with 30 year olds going into icu is the one that's going to be an incredibly traumatic experience But two if you go into icu with covet 19, it's not like you get home and you're suddenly fine This is a serious disease which if you get it seriously Is going to have quite long-term ramifications for you So the idea that we only see this as a problem if the hospitals collapse I just think is a really really bizarre logic and it's From my perspective why any rush out of the situation we're currently in would be probably mistaken, right Why not hang outside when the sun is this bright? Why are we so obsessed with opening the night clubs? And I love night clubs. Dalia. I want to go to you. How worried are you about this new data? We're seeing I say this nearly every show and I'm sure that people are very bored Of me saying it. I'm pretty bored of myself But I just I don't think that when we're evaluating the overall risk that this virus represents When we're evaluating, you know the data on the number of new infections and things like that I don't think that we should only count hospitalizations for the you know because We know that there are many people many young people who you know Are the ones out going to work who are particularly the ones in precarious work Where it's much harder to self-isolate if you need to And are also the ones that are lost to be vaccinated You know, we know that there are many who have been infected. They were never hospitalized So they won't be counted in that data But they've had they they either have had several months sort of robbed of them through long covid Or in case and in cases of people I know personally who have chronic conditions as a result of this virus I'm you know one of my partner's friends Has been diagnosed with diabetes in the aftermath of getting you know a young early 20s Kid, you know who now has a lifelong condition as a result of this and that's why you know I think that the opening of indoor spaces was just before we had you know, especially like a lot of young people vaccinated I mean, it was just a purely profit move, right? It's like we could feasibly all have You know, the weather's nice. We could all feasibly eat outside drink outside enjoy publics, you know Park spaces do picnics and things like that. So we can still socialize and we can still get you know Get that socializing that we haven't had for so long um Without actually opening up indoor spaces. The only reason behind that is because You know bars and businesses make a lot more money when indoor spaces open up because it's more clients more customers that you can have At any one time, but it wasn't that doesn't actually fulfill a social need necessarily and it actually, you know Creates a level of risk that it's just not really that necessary Given that you know, the weather's nice enough for us to be outside And we know that it's very unlikely to track you're very unlikely to transmit the virus if you are outside But you know, so that's why I'm personally avoiding indoor spaces for sure Especially because I haven't been vaccinated yet because I'm just so young But it also makes me again. It makes me worry about, you know This kind of vaccines are the silver bullet approach and messaging that this government has really pushed To basically cover up for the fact that they've been so bad at actually managing the crisis before we have the vaccines But the reason that it worries me is because it means that it's much harder to generate compliance with, you know Not necessarily another lockdown but delays In easing particular parts of the lockdown or having to, you know, renege on certain parts of the easing of the lockdown Even if it turns out that we need it now or in the future And it also means that it sends me the message that we still haven't built the infrastructure To protect us from having to have any more debilitating lockdowns should either another pandemic come along Or if some kind of variant means that the vaccines aren't as effective So I think that this kind of like the fact that even though the data is a bit worrying And that, you know, for a lot of epidemiologists, they're saying, you know, we really need to revisit that 21st of june Mark it seems almost impossible for that to happen because such a narrative has been built up that, you know On the 21st of june will all be free. It's all over now that we have the vaccines That has been so pushed by the government because it creates this kind of superhero narrative as if like, oh my god Like he fixed it. It's all done Um, but actually it could have those long-term public health consequences and it's just not necessary. We're so nearly there We are so so nearly there. I do I differ. I mean, I it might be overstated to the extent to which vaccines are a silver bullet But I mean in a way they are They're fucking cool Like when we're all vaccinated so many of these problems are going to really Uh slide away, which is why I think it just seems unnecessary to be having 30 year olds going into hospital When in literally like three weeks time, they'll all be vaccinated Um, but anyway, we'll get there soon and the sun is out So I actually don't think this choice is as sort of hard and grim as as previous ones have been Um, let's go on to our next story less consequential but more entertaining The education secretary Gavin Williamson has spent most of the past year twiddling his thumbs when schools closed in january It became apparent he'd done virtually nothing since the start of the pandemic To aid home learning kids still didn't have laptops after months. It was his job. He didn't do it He was all so silent when rishi sunak spiked a plan by the educations are to invest billions In catch-up programs, right? This is this is an education secretary who doesn't really like to do his job however His ears and paying attention and that was to express his outrage of the group of students decided to replace a picture of the queen in their common room Now the story was revealed by the right-wing blog guido forks Now they report a committee of students from mordlin's middle common room agreed by a substantial majority to take the portrait of queen Elizabeth down from their wall and to explore replacing the portrait with art by or of other influential and inspirational people Guido forks who had been sent the minutes of the meeting presumably by a right-wing student brought out some of the comments or Reproduced some of the comments that were made in the discussion So they report one student claimed that patriotism and colonialism are not really separable Another claimed the move was not about cancelling the queen saying the committee was not capable of doing so This is about our communal space and making people feel Welcome Now I thought I think guido were trying to pull out, you know the most outrageous quote said they all actually sound very very reasonable to me Of course patriotism and colonialism are not really separable That doesn't mean we necessarily have to throw patriotism out the window But we can't pretend there is no relationship between those two things and this wasn't cancelling the queen More importantly than this a middle common room That's just it's a student union for people of a particular college who are master's students Essentially like it's going to be a few dozen people like a hundred or so people They've decided that they want to change the picture on their wall Like this is kind of I can imagine it's above a pool table or something really really not a significant decision But guido think it's a story And gavin williamson thinks it's a story because in response to this article from guido forks Gavin williamson tweeted the following oxford university students removing a picture of the queen is simply absurd She is the head of state and a symbol of what is best about the uk During her long reign. She has worked tirelessly to promote british values of tolerance inclusivity and respect around the world Now on a factual level, I mean she was the head of the british empire I'm not really sure if the values of tolerance inclusivity and respect for everyone around the world were You know the values she represented. We also know that within the time span of her reign The royal family the you know the house of of winzer had a policy of not employing anyone from an ethnic minority So she's not necessarily the image of Inclusivity that many people in the british establishment want to paint her as but more importantly than that This doesn't matter. This is not something that an education secretary should be commenting on this is students Deciding to replace one picture with another picture It's like if I take down a picture of prince and replace it with a picture of dua lipa in my bedroom I am not canceling prince. I am changing the picture here. They are not canceling the queen. They are changing a picture Darlia, I mean What do you make of this like it's so I'm gonna say bizarre, but it's actually predictable. So it's not bizarre It's just embarrassing that we have an education secretary who comments on this stuff Yeah, I mean deja vu talk about deja vu. I feel like I'm called in to talk about this every 30 three weeks You know, I mean gavin williamson would much rather Talk about that about what's on the wall in a common room in oxford than, you know I don't know the fact that he plunged thousands of young people's future into chaos During the a-level grade saga when, you know, he decided to allow an algorithm that discriminated against people based on their You know where they live and what their class is Um to decide student grades or the fact that, you know, he's repeatedly tried to force teachers and students back into unsafe working environments Without the proper precautions and only You know doing last minute u-turns when the trade unions get involved Or, you know, the abysmal decision to revoke free school meals in summer holidays in the middle of a pandemic Um, or, you know, the fact that even things like the laptop scheme which is so vital for so many kids In the middle of a pandemic where so many people are having to rely on remote learning The fact that that hasn't been rolled out nearly to the scale that was either promised or that is needed Or he doesn't want to talk about the fact that, you know, 92 of 6 000 teachers that were polled said that he should resign Um, so he doesn't have any confidence in the workers that are in the sector that he's responsible for He would much rather talk about this Um than be challenged on any of those issues So it's not surprising to me that, you know, he's coming out guns blazing because this is essentially A cheap shot to galvanize a base at the expense of a group of like maybe a few dozen students Who don't have the means to defend themselves Against the weight of an abusive tabloid media Which is, you know, the full weight of which we are currently seeing And their own secretary of education essentially inciting a hate campaign against them You know, this isn't a story like a tiny group of students have democratically decided what they want to do with their communal space That is something they are perfectly entitled to do Like is that not the basis of like free speech and debate and democracy these students had a debate They had a discussion they made a democratic decision And what is essentially happening here is that the secretary of education is trying to punish students For taking down a picture of the head of state from their common room Like is that the mark of a democratic and a free society? Who's the snowflake here? Like is that the mark of british values that are apparently so uniquely british And yet seem to be violated by the british state on a regular basis And this tells me that you know this whole free speech moral panic where you know the biggest threats to free speech are like, you know Students and like black people and trans people You know, it's a complete trojan horse For forcing people to accept and promote reactionary and bigoted views because the actual consensus for such views Is shrinking so they need to resort to whatever they can especially these cheap tactics To ensure that these positions and views still have to be represented in the mainstream Even though actually amongst the younger generation the future generations It doesn't hold that much cache and I think when it comes to how we should respond to this It's really easy to kind of brush this off as like a silly distraction and to an extent it is You know, it's not like the most deep or serious thing But it also, you know, it clearly isn't just that it's like what we are seeing here is a petty but very vicious Backlash to the fact that there is undoubtedly You know, particularly as I said amongst young people a growing radical anti-racist anti-colonial consciousness That isn't just accepting, you know mere representation It's not saying that oh if you just represent us or diversify a bit then we'll shut up But it's actually rooting their understanding of anti-racism and anti-colonialism In systemic change of our economic and political systems. They are identifying the role That the British state which includes the monarchy, you know, I think there's a lot of Thinking, you know misinformed thinking that the monarchy just has symbolic power No, they are like the British royal families like one of the biggest landowners in the world Like land is not a symbolic form of power. It's actually a very material form of power that is enforced with a lot of violence But it's it's essentially a a a backlash against that changing anti-racist Consciousness because I am sure that the establishment media and the government were very shaken at those scenes last summer Not only um that black and brown that young black and brown people were taking to the streets and demanding different kinds of change But also that young white kids and you know even older white people in rural areas parts where we don't normally see You know big turnout for anti-racist demonstrations We even saw it there and so instead of actually reckoning with that they are Basically just kind of picking fights with groups of people who can't defend themselves and caricatureing the people Who are pushing for change and they're enforcing top-down legislation to stop the conversation And that's what we see in the measures to ban the use of anti-capitalist materials as as teaching materials And that's why as silly as it might seem we have to defend these students Because first of all, this is a deliberate attempt here to basically spell a hate campaign that they don't deserve I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of that. Um, it's incredibly destroying It's incredibly destructive I know many people who are still picking up the pieces of the mental health Impacts of being the subject of a hate campaign led by the government and led by tabloid media But it's also this is also how the right is trying to galvanize power in the face of shifting terrain Using these cheap tabloid style Tactics it's an attempt to delegitimize Using the full power of the state and the media Those who are pushing to change things and we mustn't dismiss these students We have to defend them because it's important that that delegitimization strategy For all of our sakes is not successful and that at a time when so many powerful forces are trying to demonize them We need to show that there is a large mass of us that are willing to back them up That was incredibly well put now if you want to hear more analysis like that from dahlia on The stories we cover every wednesday do make sure you subscribe to the channel Of course, we put out videos every week with all of our fantastic Contributors now i'm going to look at a more a few more responses to this stories There's a good statement actually from the president of mordelin college That's you know the employee who's who's most powerful um in the college now in response to the story She said Here are some facts about mordelin college and her majesty the queen The middle common room is an organization of graduate students They don't represent the college a few years ago in about 2013 They brought a print of a photo with the queen to decorate their common room They recently voted to take it down Both of these decisions are their own to take not the colleges Mordelin strongly supports free speech and political debate and the mcr's right to autonomy Maybe they'll vote to put it up again. Maybe they won't meanwhile The photo will be safely stored Being a student is about more than studying. It's about exploring and debating ideas It's sometimes about provoking older generations looks like that isn't so hard to do these days So if you are one of the people currently sending obscene and threatening messages to the college staff You might consider pausing and ask yourself whether that is really the best way to show your respect for the queen Or whether she'd be more likely to support traditions of free debate and democratic decision making that we are keeping alive at mordelin Now i'm not necessarily sure if she could say oh the queen is massively committed to democratic decision making she is of course a hereditary Monarch And was the head of the british empire But in any case the overall point the defense of the students is is pretty good there I I thought that was was a reasonable statement that gave some important context to this story And one thing she definitely is right is right about is how easy it now is to provoke The older generation now the decision by a few students to change a picture Didn't just provoke a response from williamson. It also got a hole from page in the daily mail So they thought this was the most important story of the previous 24 hours outrages oxford students vote to axe queen It's important to know they didn't vote to axe the queen You know that would be you know, they voted to abolish the queen or you know Something much more significant and will change the picture Above the pool table or next to the coffee machine to a different picture That people in our student body associate more with it's completely sensationless clickbait headline I want to go now to someone who probably should have known better Andy burnham was asked about this on lbc and I thought his answer was Really goddamn embarrassing. He's being interviewed by nick ferrari. Let's take a look Noting that your great city has some tremendous universities and you yourself went to the other place A word on oxford university students deciding to take down a portrait of the queen because it makes them feel uncomfortable Well, I just I mean, I can't really relate to that if I'm honest Yeah, I think this kind of these kind of gestures are getting a bit out of hand. Uh, if I'm honest nick I mean, I don't support that um, you know, we Are all I think always Should respect the queen but particularly now given things that have happened In in the last few months. So no, I don't support that, you know No, let's let's get a sense of proportion and a bit of a bit of respect back people can air their views But those kind of gestures I think are divisive actually they just divide people And um, and I don't think uh, they they they achieve much to be honest. Well said, Andy Come on Like for a start, that's a lie. He says I can't really relate to this Now you were you know, you were in university as a socialist, right? I'm I'm sure the idea that you didn't want the queen above your coffee machine or your pool table You might not agree. You can definitely relate to that. Come on. This this is not a complex Point, you know, it's not alien. You must know some republicans in your life Even if you're not one, I mean probably he is one come on. Let's face it Right, but he won't admit it because he wants to be the labor party and ultimately the prime minister So he's got to keep up this pretense that he's really supportive of the queen The most ridiculous part of that answer though Was Andy Burnham saying let's get a sense of proportion Now he is a senior labor politician, mayor of Manchester And he is telling Nick Ferrari that he condemns People changing a picture in their common room for a different picture and he's saying it's other people who don't have a sense of proportion Give me a break. You know Andy Burnham has had a good run Right. He's had a good run over the past few weeks. He's made some decent arguments made some good stands against the government But going on national radio and telling students they need to get a sense of proportion for changing one poster to another poster It's completely completely bizarre Now you might say look, oh the question posed by Nick Ferrari Maybe Andy Burnham didn't quite get how insignificant this was. I I presumed he did I mean, this was huge on last night's news. So that that was this morning. This story broke last night And also there's no harm in an interview in saying so Nick you're saying they voted to take down a picture. Where was the picture? You know, you can say look, I would have left the picture up But I'm not going to condemn a bunch of students for changing a poster. It's it's frankly very very embarrassing Dalia, what did you make of that answer from Andy Burnham? I don't think thankfully we've had a statement from kia starma yet Because I'm sure it wouldn't be particularly um insightful or pleasing But that that was quite very like Andy Burnham's trying to put himself forward as sort of like I'm the reasonable leader guy who could actually challenge the establishment And I'm not just going to grovel on my knees to try and make royalists think that I'll Do everything they possibly ask Do you think that was damaging to him? I mean it's cowardice It's it's cowardice. It's pandering. It's the easy way out And I think that he needs to really think about what his pathway to power is And think about the role that people who have experienced the brunt force the brute force, sorry Of you know the state particularly during empire The role that those people are going to play in his pathway to power Maybe should reflect a little bit on what he owes them This would have been such an easy conversation all he needed to do was say look I'm not here to talk about what a few dozen students do with their decor In their university common room. I'm here to talk about x y z things But instead what he's doing and and I have to bring this back to my own personal experience of being a student and having The full weight like I cannot explain to you what it must feel like for those students to see that front page of the daily mail Um saying that they have voted to axe the queen like that is incredibly inflammatory Disgusting language and I dread to think what those students email boxes what they're you know They're I don't know what it is. They have an ox with like their pigeon holes I dread to think what is in those things right now and ansi bernum has added to that pylon with nick ferrari So, you know, what's whose side are you on? It's disgusting. It's just it's pandering It's cowardice. It's unimaginative And it just tells me that he doesn't really have the tools to deal with the terrain that a lot of these issues are being fought on And I go back to the thing that I said about how you know in many ways It seems silly and in many and it is silly in many ways, but underpinning it is a very serious difference in ideology and a very serious generate intergenerational shifts that is happening and I don't think andi bernum wants to be On the wrong side of it And I think even if he wanted to stay neutral or even if he wanted to kind of you know distance himself from it Um, there was a very easy way to do that, you know, andi bernum knows how to deflect I'm sure he's had his media training and he actively chose to join in what must be an incredibly terrifying moment for a few students who should feel able to participate in the democratic processes Of their university without feeling that they might be exposed by the daily mail by gredo forks by their own government To what is essentially the inciting of What is likely to be a lot of harassment and a lot of violence and I think not I mean like not physical violence, hopefully but sort of You know Whatever, you know what I mean, but um, I also think that that's where it's important to note here that the you know whilst I think you rightly point out the the issues with the with the The head of the college's Statement I think the fact that the head of the college came out and defended those students shows us You know that we've come a little bit further ahead because when we were doing that work in 2015 in Around the rose moss fall campaign the chancellor of the university Called up a radio station and said that if we don't like it here We should go to china um because we don't value free speech or you know We should go somewhere else if we don't like it here So, you know the fact that Yeah, I'm not I did not know that Chris Patterson who who is by the way was the last colonial governor of hong kong Who was the chancellor of oxford university called up a radio station was like if the students don't like it here They should go somewhere else So the fact that that you know as as as problematic as that state as prop many problems in that statement might have um I'm glad that she actually said that because i'm sure that will be Much more relief to those students um than it was back in 2015 when we kind of Start this whole fight accidentally Well, I did not know that about the chancellor of oxford university. That's wild Um, let's go to some comments. We've got lots of great comments relevant to this caroline duvier tweets on the hashtag tisky sour We are sitting at the kitchen table. My kenyan partner has his head in his hands shaking at those comments That the queen has taken her wonderful values around the world Yeah, his ancestors really felt that when they sterilized the kikuyu Um, a very very important intervention there. Thank you so much for that Mike john green with a fiver says our wedding reception was in the local masonic lodge But we insisted that the pics of the queen and philip were taken down and they agreed no problem Now there's a lot going on there. This is when I sort of Love this to be a phone intro because i'm kind of fascinated by the idea of Masonic lodges because I've always thought I suppose from that simpson's episode I've always thought you know these places should be like secret societies and it's like why have they called it the masonic Isn't it supposed to be like underground or like a hidden hut? Anyway, I'd like to know more about that story. Unfortunately You know, we don't have the phone in sorted yet tom cornford tweets on the hashtag tisky sour Dalia is exactly right on tisky sour ridiculous though The story is we must show solidarity with and support for oxford students being subjected to a hate campaign by gavin Williamson and his outriders the culture war strategy can't just be ignored It won't go away. I think that's a very very important comment and I do think actually Dalia your response was was my response to these is often to be a bit more dismissive But I think you were exactly right actually to say that this is a big deal The the abuse that is now going to be raining down on these people because of headlines like that in the daily More we do need to take very seriously Um, al bear camu tweets on the hashtag tisky sour If being a post grad student gave me the power to cancel the queen I might be tempted to load myself up with the necessary debt Very good comment to end this segment If you are enjoying the show and if you usually Enjoy our shows and you have not already become a supporter. Please do consider doing so we ask our viewers for The equivalent of one hour's wage a month If you're up for that, please do go to the bar media dot com slash support if you are already a supporter Thank you so much. We really really do appreciate it and it makes all of this possible It means that we can continue to expand in the coming weeks and months Our final story for the evening When fans booed england players taking the knee last weekend a new front was opened in britain's interminable culture wars But while culture wars often involve tabloids and Tory ministers taking aim at anonymous anonymous students This time the right have picked a stronger opponent and they might come to regret it england managed to england manager gareth southgate on tuesday released a really brilliant statement Defending the right of his players to protest the right of of his players to take symbolic actions such as Taking the knee at the beginning of matches in the process He also put forward a vision of the country and of progressive patriotism that i think will probably be quite scary actually to england's noisy Reaction rates he put forward a very strong argument Which is to say, you know all of these people who who boo people for being anti-racist. That's not acceptable You're the past you're going to lose Now it's quite a lengthy essay So i'm just going to take you through some of the key parts though It's worth worth reading all of it now in terms of a defense of the right of england players to express opinions and campaign on social issues southgate says Our players are role models and beyond the confines of the pitch We must recognize the impact they can have on society We must give them the confidence to stand up for their teammates and the things that matter to them as people I have never believed that we should just stick to football I know my voice carries weight not because of who i am but because of the position that i hold at home I'm below the kids and the dogs in the pecking order, but publicly i am the england men's football team manager I have a responsibility to the wider community to use my voice and so do the players It's their duty to continue to interact with the public on matters such as equality inclusivity and racial injustice while using the power of their voices to help put debates on the table raise awareness and Educate and that statement. I mean We've talked about garrasafgate earlier this this this week as well. His defense of his players is really really spot on it's exactly right and This claim that They have the right to speak out about their political opinions and social issues I think it's really really important because there will be lots of us and i'll just get on with the football Right, why should they have a loud voice in politics and social issues? They should just get on with the football and let other people do politics Now the problem with that argument is that well, yeah footballers They're very very wealthy, you know, they're going to be in probably the richest You know 1% well, they're definitely going to be the richest probably 0.1% of people in this country at the moment But what's important about football is is they are one of the few industries which is dominated by people from working class backgrounds And where there is really strong representation from people from ethnic minorities, right? And so that is why I think they have been coming out with much more progressive positions than people in other industries So when people say, you know, you should only believe someone when they say footballers shouldn't have a voice if they also say Tim Martin the billionaire owner of of weatherspoon shouldn't have a voice or if they say piers morgan He's just a a private school educated tv star. Why should he have political opinions? If people only think that people in these industries which are dominated by posh white men should have opinions Then you should be somewhat suspicious Of the ends they are trying to pursue and that's why gareth southgate's defense of footballers speaking out on the issues They care about I think is super super important Now another big Part of this piece and what I think was probably equally important was gareth southgate talking about patriotism Now this is it probably goes about saying but this is you know, this is key because he is the manager of the england team So he he has actually a big a big role in shaping what patriotism means Now he sort of says personally what it means to him So he says for me personally my sense of identity and values is closely tied to my family and particularly my granddad He was a fierce patriot and a proud military man who served during world war two The idea of representing queen and country has always been important to me We do pageantry so well in britain and growing up things like the queen silver jubilee and royal weddings had an impact on me He goes on because of my granddad I've always had an affinity for the military and service in the name of your country But the consequence of my failure in representing england will never be as high as his My granddad's values are installed instilled in me from a young age And I couldn't help but think of him when I lined up to sing the national anthem before my first international camps Now here he's basically saying look my vision of england. What pride means to me is one that is quite traditional It's it's one that is in line with many of the older generations of of this country It's one which is quite likely to be endorsed by the daily mail For example, you say look, this is my patriotism. It's not particularly subversive But what he does say, which is incredibly important Is that this doesn't have to be everyone's vision of patriotism and this vision of the country should never be rammed down anyone's Fruits, right? So on that he says For many of that younger generation your notion of englishness is quite different from my own I understand that too. I understand that on this island We have a desire to protect our values and traditions as we should But that shouldn't come at the expense of introspection and progress So we're saying look all you people that say, you know taking the knee at the beginning of a football match That's anti-english. You're disrespecting our traditions. That's ridiculous. I I share a lot of the traditions you're talking about I mean, this is i have a very different idea of the nation to gareth southgate But in the voice of gareth southgate, I share lots of the ideas of the ideas of the nation that you have But I also understand we have to be incredibly accepting of other Notions of what the nation should stand for very very persuasive argument And finally from from the s l. I want to show you and what I think is probably most What most notable what really stands out is how southgate is Is willing to take a stand and face down bigoted fans who harass his players So he says there Why would you tag someone in on a conversation that is abusive? Why would you choose to insult somebody for something as ridiculous as the color of their skin? Why? Unfortunately for those people that engage in that kind of behavior. I have some bad news You're on the losing side It's clear to me that we are heading for a much more tolerant and understanding society And I know our lads will be a big part of that It might not feel like it at times But it's true the awareness around inequality and the discussions on race have gone to a different level in the last 12 months alone I am confident that young kids of today will grow up baffled by old attitudes and ways of thinking Now darling, I want to go to you on this I mean me and you we're not the a team when it comes to navara media commentary on football But I think you don't need to know that much about football to understand the significance of this statement from gareth southgate And I mean we are I think really really lucky to have someone as as thoughtful of this Who is manager of of england because I think it must mean a lot to those players that they have a football manager who is expressing this You know very very thoughtful defense of them taking a knee at the start of matches and who actually seems Quite committed actually to england being a force for the generation of a new progressive identity in britain Well england I suppose as he's manager of england Yeah, and I mean the comparison is in the u.s. The treatment of players like Colin Kaepernick for you know doing a similar gesture Um before before their games, you know how how they have been treated by owners of the nfl nfl Um that is kind of a comparison Um point, you know, I don't know much about um gareth southgate as a football manager But I do know that he has the exact like gentle dad energy that I really gravitate towards Um, but you know, I I I commend and I think especially coming off the back of the conversation We just had about andy bernham. Um, I really commend him for you know showing up for his players and not being cowed By by reactionary dogma, you know, he's that was a risk You know, um, it's not necessarily what his base might want to hear and he's showing courage where many of our politicians And journalists are really failing in this discussion And you know, I think someone really needs to write something on why football is becoming at this particular moment I know it historically has been at many times, but at this particular moment it's becoming this kind of key key space of like Oppositional political sense making, you know from like the super league to marcus rashford to the dynamics that are playing out here I think it's that's very interesting. I'm definitely not the one to write it that someone should Um, but I want to bring I want to bring it back to that conversation again that language of how The language of snowflakes is just such projection You know, they call us snowflakes for like wanting to talk about racism or wanting to change the root causes of racism Yet they're losing their minds because footballers are taking a knee like like it's hardly a radical example of like anti-racist direct action It's literally just the gesture of like stop racism in the most like vague and unthreatening terms um, but also, you know that there is this whole dynamic and I think that and I think it's why that kind of Compromise that has historically, you know over the past, you know Decade or two has sort of assuaged a lot of anti-racist mobilization It's that compromise of representation as a replacement for radical change and I think It's breaking apart, you know, it's it's losing cache with the younger generations And that's because of this dynamic that many of us have now seen that when you accept representation As a replacement for, you know structural change What you're actually giving into is this idea of like of shut up and play, you know You're in the inner circle, whether it's a football team Whether it's, you know in an organization in an institution in a political party, you know, you're in just shut up and play We don't want to hear what you have to say, especially when it challenges us or it involves transforming or changing things in any way And it's the same in these elite universities like we spoke about earlier You know, it's this idea of these elite universities will happily use You know students of color to pat themselves on the back for diversity But then they'll punish those same students for actually bringing anti-racist perspectives into the university And it's a sense of, you know, you can be here But don't even think about trying to change anything if you try We're going to say that you're being inappropriately political even though this whole damn thing is political And especially booing players for taking a knee is itself a political act. It's a deeply political act So I think that, you know gareth southgate saying, you know, whatever my own values are This idea of saying particularly to players of color shut up and play Um, you know is is wrong. We have to make space for voices, especially marginalized voices And it's very welcome solidarity from gareth southgate. And I think that's the power in it And the booing that we're seeing it carries this sense of like You know, we don't really want you here But if you're going to be here, then you have to be here on our terms and you have to be grateful for it And sometimes I think that, you know, and first of all I think that's kind of representative of how a lot of people of color in britain feel The country is generally saying to them Um, but you know, sometimes I think that people actually need a big dose of what they think they want You know, what if all those players of color went on strike? You know withdraw their labor have have your all-white team who you know, don't Who whatever who don't bring up these challenging things for you and let's see how that goes You know, I often say that like without record without recognition of the empire The very english cup of tea is just a cup of milk and hot water and you know, he wants to drink that I don't want to drink that I mean, I suppose one thing that I I don't think gareth southgate is acting cynically here But I mean one one thing his statement does mean is that You know I spent you could imagine a different manager would have allowed a division to be generated within the england football team Between players of color and and white players and then you have a situation where you know at the extreme Like you're saying you do have players of color who are saying like we're not going to be part of this And what what gareth southgate has done very effectively is is say look we are all one team We are acting as one people Yes, the taking the knee probably means something more to the players of color But every everyone in the whole squad has agreed We will be taking the knee at the start of matches if you've got a problem Take it up with all of us as a whole and I think you know that that's what's so what's so powerful About what he's done there and it does make me You know even more positive. I I'm not a massive football fan, but I do watch the the international ones and it does I think it it bodes well For euro 2020 which is taking place in 2021 Dalia gabriel it has been a wonderful evening spent with you Thank you. It's been wonderful spending the evening with you too Um, I might go and catch the final 20 minutes of sunlight Um, thank you so much for watching tonight's show. We'll be back on friday For now, you've been watching tisky sour on navara media. Good night