 Please welcome Matt Dock Hall. I don't really know what he's talking about, because I just missed the schedule. Excuse me. Have fun. Can we, oh there we go, there we go. First of all, I was asked to announce that the beer, the free beer, will be going on for quite some time. So that you have plenty of time to listen to the talk, maybe even have some dinner before you go and have the free beer. So I just wanted to make that announcement. And the other thing is about this talk, this is a fun talk. I give it from time to time. There's some analogies to free software in here and Linux and everything, but don't look for them to be too tight and too precise, unlike all the code that you write. This is made to be a fun talk and that's the way I'd like to think of it. So can we have this other microphone turned on please? Can you hear the music? This of course is Green Sleeves, one of my favorite songs. We'll hear more about Green Sleeves after a while. But first, the talk is made up of two parts. One part is a little bit of an introduction to some of the musical instruments I'll be talking about tonight. And then the second part of the talk is a correlation between free software and the player piano. This particular instrument is a symphony reed organ made by a company called Wilcox and White. They were located in Meridan, Connecticut about a century and a half ago. Let's see if I can turn up the volume a little bit. Yes? I'm sorry. Pianola. Pianola? It plays by a roll of paper. In fact, you can see the roll of paper here. This is a player reed organ. You see the piece of paper there in a roll with holes punched in it that is dragged across a reed head. These are stops. This particular one has 21 stops to it. It has a regular keyboard that you can play, but you have to pump it with your feet to create a vacuum. And that vacuum is then drawn across the reeds like in a harmonica. And that causes the reed to vibrate, which causes the air column to vibrate, which makes a rather loud sound for just such a tiny little reed. It's a really magnificent instrument, isn't it? Very nice when you have it in your very small living room covered with penguins. Now that we heard it, I'll tell you a little bit more about the instrument. This particular one was built in 1890, but reed organs actually started in the United States, probably about the time period of 1840 or so. In Europe, there was a type of a reed organ called a harmonium. But they were basically the same type of design. Now, as I said before, when you pumped the bellows down here, you create a vacuum that pulled the air across the reed. The reason it's called a free reed is because one portion of it was fastened and the other portion of it was free to vibrate. This made it very nice for places that got cold, like in the wintertime. So because the reeds could contract and expand, it wasn't anything that would warp them. If you take a piano, for instance, with its harp and you put it in a very cold place, the harp will expand and pull the strings and quickly pull the piano out of tune or even completely damage the piano completely. So if you have a piano, you want to keep it in a relatively moderated room that the temperature doesn't change that much so that you can keep the piano in tune. But a reed organ, because of the fact that the reed could expand and contract, was oftentimes kept in churches that had no heat and it would work perfectly well. This particular organ only had 61 notes and 61 holes across the paper. Now, I will also say that in the English language there's a couple of phrases that came directly from organs like this. The stop is a mechanism that you pull out which redirects the air across a certain set of reeds or through a certain set of mechanisms to give the organ a particular sound. You may be able to somewhat duplicate the sound of a trumpet or even a voxumana, a human voice by pulling out one of those little knobs. And the thing is, if you pulled all of them out, then you got a very grand tone and that was called pulling out all the stops, which is a saying in the English language, which means that you've tried very hard, you've pulled out all the stops. You may have heard the concept of its swell. It's great. It's, you know, the swell. Well, the swell was a mechanism down below that you would push with your knee. And what it effectively did was open all the stops and also allow the organ to be played very loud. So that was swell. Now, in the Wilcox and White Company, a meridian made 300,000 reed organs during its existence. Out of those 3,000, 300,000 reed organs, only about 3,000 of them were player reed organs. And today, only about 16 of them are left that we know of. And I rescued one of these from basically a garbage bin and had it restored so that someday I can put it into a museum so that other people will be able to enjoy it. My particular organ has a rather checkered past. It was originally bought and put in a bordello. And some of the songs I have are rather racy for such an instrument. Now, you have to remember that back in those days, a bordello was more like a gentleman's club where people would go to be entertained by the ladies' stuff. And sometimes the ladies would play the organ, and sometimes they would allow the organ to be played by itself, just pumping it. But they had some interesting songs, and I have some of those songs still left when I got the organ. But then apparently the bordello owner got some type of religion, and they gave the organ to the Baptist church. And so I have a completely different set of music that came from that, and they're all kind of mixed in together now, and it makes it kind of an interesting combination. This is the Moor Beer Poca. I think it's very appropriate for this group, and later tonight we can sing it. Here's your glasses and show. Loud and clear Moor Beer. In any case, this was actually the first player piano I ever got. It's a 1912 Beckwith player piano. And Beckwith was actually the brand of Sears Roebuck and Company. Sears Roebuck and Company was a large company in the United States that had a large catalog of things, and you could buy almost anything from the Sears Roebuck catalog at one time. I remember that in the 1902 Sears Roebuck catalog, you could actually purchase an entire house and have it delivered on freight cars, and then from there it would be delivered to the building lot and you would hire local talent to build the basement, and then you could assemble this house just from the materials that came with your Sears Roebuck house. Everything was there, the nails, the toilets, the sinks, everything. Or you could buy a horse and wagon, not the horse, but the wagon at least, or carriage or underwear. And when I was growing up, my parents bought most of our underwear through the Sears Roebuck catalog, and you would order it and then it would come. It was kind of the eBay of that day. And the Amazon, whatever you want to call it. And Beckwith was one of those pianos. Now, you really have to think about this of what it was like back in those days, right? Because maybe you're in the United States, you're in some place like Kansas or Oklahoma or something, and there's nothing around, absolutely nothing around. And there's no radio, there's no TV, you probably don't even have a telephone. And if you don't make music of some type, if you can't play the keyboard, if you can't play a trumpet or something like that, then there's really no music. I mean, you could sing, but you've already heard me sing, and you know what a disaster that is. So all of a sudden, you can imagine what it would be like that you could look at the Sears Roebuck catalog and you could order this player piano and have it delivered to your house. So you would order it and then the salesman, the postman would come up with the player piano on their back delivering it. Thank God I got rid of this thing. I only got 12 more to deliver. And then you could train your little brother or sister to pump that while you and your girlfriend or boyfriend roll up the carpet and dance to the music on the rolls. And not only that, but a lot of the rolls had the words printed alongside of it. So as the roll went along, if you could read real carefully, you could read all the music and sing along with it. Again, most of my music would probably have no words on it because my parents actually made me play the clarinet. And the reason they picked that instrument for me was because when you've got the clarinet in your mouth, you can't sing. So we'll see more about the player piano and how it works and stuff later. Let's go on to the next thing here. Nickelodeons. This is rag time. This is 12th Street rag. The interesting thing about a Nickelodeon is that it has other instruments down here. And it has a little coin mechanism in the top that you can plunk a nickel in your Nickelodeon and have it play a song for you. The rolls would typically have 10 different songs on there and a mechanism to allow it to stop after each song had been written. That's enough of that. And it would have additional controls on it so maybe play a snare drum or a triangle and then a little mechanism inside to do what they called honky-tonk. And honky-tonk was basically sticking a metal clip in between the hammer of the piano and the string, which gave it kind of a tinny sound. And you could control that by lifting a bar up and down that would move all the clips up and down to move them in between the strings or remove them. That was honky-tonk. And all of that was controlled by mechanisms on the roll which would tell it, okay, turn on honky-tonk, turn off honky-tonk, turn on the snare drum, turn off the snare drum, stuff like that. And you could buy those rolls. And these were great favorites in restaurants or things like that because it was kind of like the jukebox of the day. You stick your nickel in and after a while you would pay off the player piano or the Nickelodeon and make a lot of money and entertain your customers too. And a lot of you, maybe if you've seen old, old, old U.S. westerns and stuff like that, you've seen Nickelodeons in them. Now, that's the historical part of it. I'm going to go a little bit forward now. On September the 11th of 2001, Trinity Church, which was basically at the base of the World Trade Center, had the organist playing their pipe organ. Now, I've already told you that reed organs use a vacuum. Pipe organs use a blower. You know, they blow the air through the pipes. That's why reed organs suck and pipe organs blow. In any case, the organist there left the organ on when the World Trade Center was collapsing. He just forgot to turn it off and I don't think you blame them. And the pipes got all clogged with air, ash and dirt and everything, leaving Trinity Church, which fortunately wasn't damaged completely, with the problem that they had no organ to play. Now, Trinity is a very wealthy church. They are literally across the street from Wall Street, the building of Wall Street, right? In fact, there's a connector between the church and the building of Wall Street. So if the market is going down, everybody runs across to the church, saying, God, and hopefully the market will go back up again. And so they had lots of money and they had lots of real estate in New York City. So money was not a problem. But the problem is that when you're building a pipe organ for a church like Trinity, it typically takes about 10 years to build it and they couldn't deal with the fact they wouldn't have an organ for 10 years. And so they decided to really take a risky chance to build it an electronic organ, an electronic organ, which they knew would not be anywhere near what they needed for their church. But it's something they could get for only a million dollars and they could probably be to put in just, you know, maybe six months, and then they could do their research to get a really good pipe organ. So they went to a company called Marshall & Ogletree in Massachusetts, and that's Mr. Marshall right there. They did a whole series of work on putting together a brand new style of electronic organ. Now, an electronic organ is basically two ways to make the organ. You can synthesize the sound, you can synthesize the sound, but that's not the best, you know, or you can sample the sound and then you play it back, play it back to samples. And a lot of people, when they sample the sounds, when a lot of companies sample the sounds, they're going to use the pipe of the pipe organ. And then they will, you know, make that spread. They will say, well, that's what that pipe sounds like and what we're going to do is synthesize what the next one will sound like based on that one and so forth and so on. But that's really not a good way of doing it because the problem is you're not picking up all the harmonics that are in all those pipes. It's very hard to synthesize that. I mean, that probably would take a computer, you know, 50 years to synthesize that completely. So, and the other problem is that they typically take a very small sample, maybe a 30-second sample of the sound and that's not good either because a lot of times it takes a very long time for the air to enter into the pipe and come to some type of of state where you say that's what the pipe is going to sound like for the rest of the time that you're going to be holding down the key. So what Marshall and Audrey did was they went to 40 different organs around the world, major organs and they sampled every single pipe of every single organ not just for 30 seconds but for 3 minutes to allow it to come to a solid state and they built a database of all these sounds of all these sounds of all these pipes and all these organs and they then built this Opus 1 that has two 15,000 watt amplifiers to drive the speakers that they placed throughout the church Trinity Church it has two consoles each one of them four manuals one is down in a normal place where the organist sits and went up in the choir loft and they can now monitor and update any of this software and notes and everything over the internet so basically you can just flip switches on the organ you can be in Notre Dame Cathedral you can be in because organs have different sounds you have jazz organs you have classic organs and you can have all these different organs and they continually go out to new organs and take more samples and everything now they started developing this software on Windows and they did quite a bit of development on Windows and all of a sudden Mr. Ogletree said you know Windows is too unstable for this we could be in the middle of a concert and Windows could go down and that would be horrendous and this is just an organ concert is just too important to trust this to Windows and so what they did was they had 10 Linux computers that drive this with one as a hot standby at all times in case one of the hardware on the other 10 fails it can automatically switch over and continue doing this and of course during every important concert they monitor all of this over the internet so they can go in and fix it if it needs and they got all finished putting this organ in and they asked the organ master of Trinity to sit down and play it and he sat down and he played it and everything and when he got finished he just sat there and then he turned around and he had tears running out of his eyes and they said why are you crying he said this is the most beautiful organ I've ever played and I said oh he means the most beautiful electronic organ you've ever played he says no this is the most beautiful organ I've ever played and they thought well that's rather nice but then they started well let's take this a little bit further and they started inviting major organists from all over the world to come and play this organ and repeatedly they said this is the best organ we've ever played and so now there's huge concerts which are given in New York City they also broadcast them over the net and you can listen to them of course you're listening to them over the net you're getting the sound that comes out of your PC and stuff and that's not the best in the world but you get the idea of what the organ is capable of and that previous song was the actual organ playing but this isn't the only place that Linux has popped up in this type of world the Yamaha Discolir is a kind of a player piano type of thing except now you use a CD-ROM originally a floppy disk then a CD-ROM to be able to drive it and they recently came out with a new version called the Mark IV which has a hard disk in it and you can store over 80,000 songs on the hard disk and all in MIDI format and in addition to the songs you're storing there you can also store the orchestra that goes along with it so what happens here is when you listen to the CD you're not listening to the piano recording on the CD the piano actually plays according to what the MIDI tells it to do and then that's what you're hearing as far as the piano goes but the rest of the orchestra things like clarinets and violins and stuff like that is recorded on the CD or recorded on the hard disk so you can listen to that too in addition to that they have words that if you hook up your TV set or monitor of some type you can sing along with it with Kuroki and you can download new software and stuff from the internet because it has built in it actually uses Wi-Fi and it has a remote control set for that and of course all of this starts for a mere $35,000 and goes up to $150,000 depending upon the model of the piano and stuff that you want so when you're looking for the new piano for your den or something like that you can think about this one who says you can't make money with free software? so that's the end of the first presentation I just wanted to give you an idea of the different instruments we're going to be talking about and stuff and now what we can do is go to the second presentation of why is Linux like a player piano and here we go first we're going to have a prequel ok in Florence Italy in 1703 there was an instrument maker and this instrument maker made a new instrument it was a very expensive instrument to make and he said jeez I've got this problem normally I would patent this and make lots of money by selling the patent and this was because written patents were well known in Florence Italy they've been around since the 1300s but there was no music for the instrument and if there's no music there's no demand if there's no demand there's no instrument makers that want to use his patent and there's then no more instruments you see the vicious cycle here so he was really stuck he said should I patent this or should I publish how to make this instrument and he actually just tried to find a publisher in Italy that would publish how to make it but no publisher in Italy says oh this is crazy I'm not going to publish this he finally had to go to Germany and he found a magazine in Germany that published exactly how to make this instrument and then all of a sudden the instrument makers in Germany says jeez we can make this and they started making copies of it and giving away as samples to some very famous musicians of the day maybe some people you know about people called Beethoven and Bach Mozart because the instrument that Cifarelli had invented in 1703 in Florence Italy the instrument that replaced the harpsichord which could only play one loudness because the harpsichord plucked the string this instrument hit the string with a hammer and so you could hit it soft or loud piano or forte piano forte the piano and if Cifarelli had decided to patent it we may never have had the piano because even with what has happened he took the piano almost a century to replace the harpsichord as the instrument of choice in a concert and there's a picture of Mr. Cifarelli right there and there's one of his first pianos and he actually did very well you know as things spun up with people actually willing to get more pianos now as I said before going back in time to the 1860s there was no music that you could have in your house unless you could play it yourself and there was no stereo hi-fi or even 8-track there were music boxes but music boxes were typically fairly expensive they only played like one or two tunes they really weren't very loud and stuff like that so they weren't really practical but in 1880 the first player piano was created it used a paper roll say have an analogy to software and it was a foot powered bellows so it could be used without electricity and the vacuum that you generated also created a executed little motor which could take up the reel and make the roll go and it powered the keys now it wasn't a major success because obviously there's 88 keys and this only had 56 holes in the paper so it didn't meet minimum functionality it was kind of like version 0.7 or something like that but in 1890 a major breakthrough came through in the fact that there was a standard created called the 88 note standard and it had of course a hole for each one of the keys and a piano plus an additional hole called the sustain hole and it was for the sustain pedal so that when you played a note it would hold it and there was also a bellows that guided the paper back and forth across the reed head to keep it lined up and we'll see a little bit more about that later so here's the mechanism of my Beckwith piano this is the motor here I talked about that pulls we'll see a larger blow up of that later here's a roll across the reed head we'll see a larger blow up of that there's some controls here for controlling the tone of the piano and the speed of the roll but you could also control the speed of the roll by pumping the pedals harder or lower and then there's a bellows over here which pulls the paper from left to right to make sure it's aligned on the reed head now here's the reed head and the feedback mechanism here's the reed head with its 89 little holes actually and there's a little finger on either side that's going to rub against the paper and so if the paper goes too far to one side or too far to the other there's a valve that opens up and then that valve controls the bellows that the bellows expands or contracts which is hooked to the rod which guides the payout to reel and lining it up to go across the reed head with the feedback mechanism that lines it up now later on these little fingers on either side which sometimes got bent or sometimes had other problems were replaced by a very simple mechanism of having just an additional hole in each side so if the paper was perfectly lined up it covered the hole and if it moved too far to the left one of the holes was uncovered if it moved too far to the right it was a very simple change but it improved the reliability of the piano and the reliability of the mechanism now here's the bus lines coming down from the reed head and they each hit a couple of little bellows here which actually activate the keys and here's the device driver I gave a cute little name but this is the actual vacuum motor here we have a slide valve shaft and the crankshaft is also a combination crankshaft and valve shaft and then this is a differential clutch and gearing to make it go forward and backwards so that you could rewind the roll after it was finished here's the bottom part of the piano the two pumps here and then you have bellows on either side very simple now of course like every computer system we have today you can't just buy the computer system you have to buy the accessories to come with it and the manufacturer will tell you that you absolutely have to have this official motor graphite now I know that looks a lot like the motor graphite you could probably go down to the hardware store and get for like two cents or something like that but if you buy it from them it costs you like $1.50 and then you have the official furniture polish and stuff that you have to buy I know it looks a lot like anybody else's furniture polish but that can't be true because this is what you need and then this little thing is kind of interesting because a lot of times when you get the roll of paper all of the holes have been punched out but remember the floor the voting that we had with the chads stuck in the voting well these would have little chads stuck in them also not quite punched out or maybe they had been punched out but they were still stuck in the roll and when it went across the reed head it would be sucked into the reed hole and then you would have to suck it back out again or else the head would become filled and jammed and so you were this was used as a vacuum to suck it out I actually just used my vacuum cleaner and I just suck it out the same way and it was perfectly fine and then this is the instruction manual which like all of our instruction manuals is never read until of course the whole thing stops working and then you figure out that gee maybe I should have gotten that little suction thing or used a special graphite or something like that and you can see Resier's and Roebuck in Chicago is the maker of this now between the years of 1890 when the 88 no standard came in and 1930 when the Great Depression hit about 2.5 million player pianos created in the United States alone now this is pretty impressive because the United States at that time didn't have as many people as it has today we have 350 million people today but we didn't have that many people because a great number of immigrants hadn't come over yet and we didn't even have all the states at that point so this shows the popularity of this instrument even though it's very expensive a piano back in those days would cost about $300 you could buy a Model T Ford for $300 a car for $300 and you could patch that up to what we pay for piano today if you bought a brand new piano of a decent quality you'd probably be paying 6 or 7 thousand US dollars for it now this huge market invited duplication and the 28 note standard was standard it allowed lots of vendors to make roles that made that standard and it allowed lots of piano companies to make pianos that could use those roles and this just kept feeding on each other and then they kept incrementally improving the mechanisms and if you take a look at the back of a player piano today you'll find a little patent strip that even though Cipirelli never patented the original piano you'll find a little patent strip there with incrementally little improvements made and showing which patents this particular piano was using and it licensed and so forth and so on and every once in a while you'll go to repair one of these pianos and all of a sudden you'll realize this is a really stupid thing this person did why did they do this really stupid thing and then all of a sudden it occurs to you they did it with patent license and that particular improvement and that's what happens but the 88 note standard was maintained and it worked very well now the problem with the 88 note standard is the fact that when the player piano plays the hole goes across the reed head and boom the key goes down and the string is hit but that's not how you play a piano when you play a piano play it by hitting the keys with different forces sustained attack and things like that and so the regular 88 note player piano didn't sound like a real piano being played and the problem what this created was people who even went to blindfold test to see if you could tell whether it was real piano being played by a real piano player or whether it was a player piano that was playing and because to get around this they created something known as the reproducer piano which had additional holes in it which could tell the piano how to hit the key and how to hit with the attack and sustain and this was able to actually reproduce a good enough sound a good enough reproduction so that people could not tell whether the piano was really being played by a real piano player or whether it was being a reproducer piano and there was about 50% more holes in the paper to do this and 50% more parts in the piano and the piano cost 50% more and there was about 4 or 5 vendors of these reproducer pianos that charged lots of money for them but they all had different standards and the problem with that was that nobody could when they bought the piano they couldn't get a range of music some companies specialized in jazz some companies specialized in classical music and things like that and so it became very difficult to get a set of roles that covered the whole range of music that you might have for your piano and basically what happened was the public rejected the reproducers 2.5 billion 88 note standard pianos were created nowhere near the number of reproducers there just wasn't enough selection of roles and people weren't going to pay the extra money for the perceived value that the people told them it was there and it was hard to find service because you had to keep going back to the company that made the piano and so reproducer pianos were proprietary in 1930 the depression hit and most of the player piano firms went out of business because nobody could afford these really expensive instruments anymore and after the depression was over with the market never recovered because by that time there were things like radio and phonographs and TV and stuff that took the place of the player piano and the instruments that were around typically went to the basement or something like that and the leather bellows would rot and mice would get in and eat the rubber tubes and things like that and the thing would eventually fall into disrepair little kids would bang on the keys and break the ivory but about 1960 when the summer of love came in and everybody was worried about the environment and stuff like that and everybody started bicycling you know you get your 16 speed bicycle and stuff like that people said well geez why don't we repair these player pianos they're kind of cool and they started restoring them and some of the companies that had made the roles went back into business QRS a very famous company in Buffalo New York started making roles again playwright another one started making roles again and not just the old music that they had hanging around but new music things like Billy Joel's piano man bridge over troubled water stuff like that you can get those on roles player roles and put them on your old piano in fact there was a company in Seneca Pennsylvania that started making new player pianos the ones you would pump with your feet and everything utilizing those roles but they were only the 88 note pianos nobody bothered to try revive the reproducer marketplace yes there are some roles made for old reproducer pianos today but not new reproducer pianos other than the disc the disc lever which is a completely different machine and this is Linux it's standard you get high value for low price you know it's the 88 note piano and because it's standard people can incrementally improve on it above and below the standards to make it better and better people can work more and more applications to it people can get applications for it as opposed to a proprietary operating system such as VMS or MPE or any of the other ones that came before and this is a beautiful thing now I'm going to go to another part of the talk which talks about an issue that came up recently as I said before this is Green Slee it's one of my favorite songs and I belong to the Automated Music and Instruments Society of America and I recently went to a meeting of that and there's a bunch of people my age and even older sitting around talking about their instruments that they have in their house and saying oh yeah I'm recording my instrument and I'm putting up these MPEG-3s up on the web and I started to feel the hackles stand up on the back of my neck because of all the issues we have in the United States with the RAII and all those people who Walt Disney who wants to get every single dime 10 out of this and so I began to wonder about this and I called up somebody at the QRS record company or roll company and I said what would happen if I took a really old roll of music you know something that was done at like 1890 or something like that and it's green sleeves so it's a really old tune and you know recorded that what would that and he says well you know it's true that green sleeves is not copyrighted but the arrangement of green sleeves when it was played was copyrighted and not only that but we punched it onto the roll we copyrighted that too and then there's this whole thing about this really weird law that Congress of the United States passed called the phonorecord law which as far as I can tell says that no matter what you do your recording is copyrighted and he says what I would recommend is that if you make this recording make it less than 30 seconds so you can say it's a personal use copy and please don't use any of our rolls to make it try and find some other company that's going out of business and use one of their rolls because that way we won't have to sue you I said thank you very much and now I no longer sing in the shower because I'm afraid I'm going to be singing an arrangement of green sleeves that somebody made some time and some person's going to come to the shower door and knock on it and say don't stop singing that song because otherwise you'll have to pay us money so with that that's the end of the song already I see somebody is going to ask a question or make a statement yeah just a statement you are aware that there is a project online somewhere where they actually make copyright free music available in all kinds of different formats so you might be able to convert that somehow to a roll which you make yourself and then you've got no problem with copyright yeah that's it I was looking for the name I can recover it's Mutopia project well see the whole point of my making the MPEG 3's of these systems or these pianos was to show how my piano sounded and I was using a roll that I had on my instrument it wasn't so much to provide the song to anybody it was just to show them what this particular instrument sounded like you could probably convert the MIDI file to a roll and then you would be able to play your instrument yes true yes you could you could make it but again you know if depending on how you created them if you just jammed a little bit and created your own song yeah then you'd be perfectly okay right okay any other comments hello can we go back a little bit to the Opus 1 organ I would be really interested to know a little bit more about you said it had two controls each with four manuals I would assume there were pedals as well and I would like to know how stops worked from it and how many did it have because Americans are crazy and making like a hundred and something stops organs and stuff like that and whenever there was some code published regarding the music generation because I know a couple of organ synthesizers that are not so good and there is a commercial program that uses samples that it's very expensive and stuff like that well yes I mean the Opus 1 that goes into Trinity Church was actually a 5 million dollar electric organ but see if they bought a pipe organ it would have been more along the lines of 10 million dollars and plus like I said it would take probably in the scope of between 5 and 10 years to build the organ the pipe organ and put it in the church and that's why they went with the electric organ it wasn't because they didn't have the money or didn't want to spend the money it was a time factor but now they say gee you know this organ sounds so good and the nice thing about the Opus 1 is because you could position all the speakers throughout the church if you have a real pipe organ there are some portions of the church that you can't really hear the music as well and so with the Opus you could actually position all the speakers and you go through with a microphone and you could actually adjust the amount of power from each one of the speakers so that you could actually have the organ sounding just like you're seeing on the main part of the church but from every portion of the church it's really great. Now all the technical specifications and stuff like that if you go to the Trinity Church site they have a complete section just on the Opus 1 and it tells you a lot about it we can go to the Marshall and Ogletree site and look there and if you want I can put together a little thing and send it around an email tomorrow or the day after tomorrow because tomorrow is the big day after tomorrow I can put it together some URLs and send it around to the people that are interested in it. Yeah, I would appreciate that. Sure, sure. Yes? Yeah, up here. Yeah, thanks for the observations of the comparisons. One of the things that you're probably aware of that I always found amusing was amongst the reproducing pianos one of the things that they used to do that they found really exciting to decrease the ability of different player pianos' roles to play on different pianos was to move the rewind hole so there's almost always on every player piano a hole that does a rewind and they would map the rewind hole on their specific reproducing piano to the most common expressive hole on their opponents reproducing piano so roles that would play on one reproducing piano couldn't possibly play on any other piano even in the normal 8-8 hole mode they just immediately start playing and then immediately rewind and so it's sort of an interesting thing that goes along with that. I can't tell you the number of times that computer companies went in and did much the same type of thing with their software figuring that this is going to give them an edge somehow and reality all it did was piss off their customers. Anybody else have any comments? I have 10 minutes left back there. Oh, I should also mention with the tranny when interesting thing about the tranny they wanted it to sound so much like a real pipe organ that when you start up the tranny electronic organ you hear the sound like the blowers of the real pipe organ starting up and the air moving through the pipes and stuff like that even though there's no blowers and no pipes and they continue to as I said before they continue to sample even more organs and they continue to improve the sound of the system and so it just keeps getting better and better. They also are producing less expensive versions of it, ones that that only cost a million dollars for the electronic organ for churches that can't afford the five million dollar opus one variety and the way I found out about the tranny organ I was actually on a tour of an organ factory in Massachusetts and I had on my vest with my little Linux penguin and this guy is looking at me and he says you use Linux? I says yes he says do you know about this organ? He started telling me about it and I says no I've never heard about that let me give you a CD of the music he says I'm one of the people that actually wrote the software for it and he's the one who told me the story about Windows vs. Linux but on the Marshall and Ogletree site they actually have a statement that says Windows was too unstable for anything as important as an organ concert. Okay thank you very much.