 Poured way too much of this. All right, Jimmy. You want to you want to welcome back to liana's library? Well, we are covering in our read-along of a song of ice and fire going back into Essos and Westeros The feast for a feast for crows. I'm sorry a feast for crows. Leanna has a dope addition I have the folio and Alex over here is rocking the mass market paperback, which is just I am a peasant He says we have a dope addition and then it's like, I mean, I have a folio No, you know how you know how little I care about my mass markets I let my one-year-old wander into my office and just play with them. That's how little I care about mass markets I will say I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Jimmy. Are you drinking scotch out of what is that? This is a Omgang brewery Your glass. Yes gang. What? Yes, I like the I like to hold it like a chalice like Robert did in the show you know, it's just like More wine, but it's not wine It's fire wine. I had to drink this because it's the song of ice and fire golden wine Yes, it's a golden one. Oh my oh my oh my So feast for crows, I feel like what is it? They say I need to hold my stuff like pouring a drink out for the dead since feast for crows is like What a what a great title by the way You think the other titles are shit, Jimmy. Don't I this is the best one for sure I dance with dragons is dope too though. Yeah They are good. They are I mean they make sense but also after a clash of Kings and Storm of Swords, I'm irritated at the lack of alliteration and face across Yeah, he kind of broke that didn't he I mean Game of Thrones didn't have it and then we started doing a thing with Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords and I was like, oh and then face for crows What? Whatever it kind of apt to because a lot of the things and about the series change starting at these for crows Even the chapter titles become different, right? It kind of threw me off. That's what I said No, Jimmy. Did he maybe maybe Jimmy are our Martin is busy writing Winds of Winter That's what it is. We all know that's right. It's true But yeah, I mean so a lot of the titles are it's like care instead of just giving you new character names They just it's like a name of a title that has nothing. It's just like I Guess kind of what the character is about. It's weird. Yeah, I actually kind of like it I'll get I'll get my stupid princess in the tower is the one I remember because it's the last one that's named the river I'm gonna get the book go for it. Hold on my best. Please halt all conversation for 10 seconds. We'll do Well, well Alex has gone we can show off our cool clothes because he doesn't have cool clothes All right, so as I was saying the princess in the tower Red we get it. You're a fake Baratheon fan Hey Baratheon has a Targaryen blood, you know, I could have just googled the chapter titles probably you you absolutely could Yep, we appreciate the analog I like that This prologue that's weird, but so I feel like Just to actually start talking about the book I feel like I've been the most vocal hater of face for crows like during our read-along and also just like before our read-along like at Every opportunity whenever I was just randomly talking about like series like kind of losing their way I was always like and then you end up with face for crows like that was like my go-to Like way to like shit on something, but I gave it five stars this time I actually like I think because I went into it be like, oh, this is the garbage one And I was like Still so good Like this time like the way first time I went into it. I had just come off the high of storm of sorts Yeah, but this time I was like this is the garbage one and I went and I was like actually this is fine Yeah, I would agree with that and I do think that George in even we're gonna see it again in dance I think his writing got better each time out. I really do This is definitely the book that improves the most on the reread though I can say that for sure because my my first two rereads. I are reads or whatever I also thought feast was weak and Then I feel like the more I read it the more I kind of love it. Yeah, which I'm finding okay So we're we're five minutes in time to mention Abercrombie I find that like the books that like I love the most for Abercrombie for any like but any like books that I Just find reasons to talk about Joe Abercrombie No, it's just always relevant But like when I've been when I've a lot of times I've reread those books like usually the ones that like the first time through I was like wow the second time through I'm like not as wow But the other like they're sleepers the ones that I was like that was fine And then like I reread it and I reread it. I'm like actually like this might be my favorite Because like it just has more of like it's like it's like the best friends that ends up being the like love interest at the end You know like they were always there quiet They were always there for you and you didn't appreciate them and then like by the end you're like this is my favorite Yeah, I think that also this is a very good case of the book reads you In the mood that I was in after Specifically the first two times like just being captivated by Storm of Swords so much I don't always captivated by that book but letting feast tell its own tale in a lot of ways I think is the appropriate way of going about it And I also have found arcs in this book that before I did not care for as much to really grip me this time Specifically the Iron Islands, which I have been a hater I was gonna say I'm the one that's actually been vocally supportive of the Iron Islands I mean the Kingsmoot the whole atmosphere and that's something that is so good It's so good and you're on has to be one of the most captivating characters But I would even say the Victorian is I mean he's a dastardly bastard, but he He's he's pretty compelling. He's I just always sound like the Iron Islands like to be one of the things and song I find that as Brilliant as everything is a lot of it feels like but this is a redux of European history Sure, whereas like Iron Islands and like some stuff with like Old Valeria and when you get into like the north and the the green men and the first like that stuff That's when it's like peak Georgia or Martin just like inventing a thing And so I think that's why I enjoy the Iron Islands so much because it's not as like Wibbly wobbly and bizarre as like the you know the stuff like be on the wall or whatever But it is quite Unique to this world and unique to George R. Martin's invention. It's like a spin on like Vikings, but in But different yeah, but at the same time like it was only like after I heard myself Describing the Iron Islands that I was like I guess I could be describing Vikings But I never read them as like oh, this is his version of Vikings like I just didn't even think of it I was like this is his own thing. Yeah, I'm saying like if you were to compare it to something It's like his version of like pirates or Vikings or some kind of just like Barbaric by nature like we conquer to take everything kind of people we do not so But like I mean even when I read first law, I'm like the Northman Okay, those are like Vikings, but like when I read the Iron Islands, I'm like they're the Iron Islands Like I'm not comparing anything else. Yeah, I think it's also one of the better Examples of George doing like a whole different place and really having a feel even in the way that they talk and one of the best things that I Think a song of ice fire offers is religion Not even really a critique on religion, but just really good religions like I'm not on my taxes Like the next time they do the census I may say Lord of Light I don't know well It feels almost again like in when you study like or like religious studies, you know like in University or like comparative Relate like world religions like it feels like that where it's kind of almost like anthropological cultural history We're like it feels very layered and complex and messy and and like where it's illogical It feels appropriate for to be illogical because a lot of faith and tradition is inherently Filled with paradoxes and yes, it's yeah, it's real good and also like the Mystique of being drowned and brought back to life with the drowned God I mean, that's what it opens. I'm not the prologue, but it's what chapter one is is the prophet Yeah, and it's again like the whole like you literally die in your like baptism and are brought back to life like how metal I really really enjoyed that a lot more this time around like I've I've read the series quite a few times and I've never really clicked with the Iron Islands past the on and This is the time where I think it's really clicked with me And I love that someone brought up Lovecraft because there is descriptions about the Riverlands there being swamps that will eat you alive She was tearing up, which we know is Nymeria It's very Lovecraftian. Yeah, talk about the quiet aisle. I think in this book as well, which is definitely Lovecraft inspired Which is cool because this is a horror book like this is George's kind of dip into horror Which I think he touches into a lot But I think what also makes it feel really real is that like a lot of books will make the mistake of like when it mentions Religion, it's only brought up when it comes to like, you know, this is this is what we believe and this is seriously We believe and here's the tenants of the faith and here's like some faithful person Here's like a seer or like a Shaman and he's gonna tell you what we think but like where it feels real is when you see the common people and their Relationship to the faith which is like not necessarily even knowing what the faith is but the way that it's like built into how they talk or it's like built into like their worldview and It's that like peasant version of the faith that they don't necessarily get But it's definitely part of their lives that like it makes it feel real Yeah, and their convictions sometimes come from their gods, especially in the Iron Islands Lawrence is the first time she's read Feast for Crows and she loved it. That is awesome More than that makes me so happy. It's just it's such a different book then I mean coming off of a storm of swords where like all of the epic shit happened Yeah, Feast for Crows is much more tame in comparison. Yeah Just remember our chat about a storm of swords like the fight at the wall the red wedding the purple wedding like So much crap happened in that book that you're just like, oh, yeah this book is all of the epic scenes put into a book and then a Feast for Crows is like Much more slow and you're introducing new characters and you're learning more about the Iron Islands and Dorn and like more It's slow kind of like political stuff when like all of the big events just happen Like you kind of need that time to breathe and that's probably why I mean obviously like if you read stuff as it comes out in publication If you're coming off of a storm of swords and then whatever the wait period was to Feast was it like five years? Six years, whatever it was. I think it was five years Yeah, and then to have like a much slower pace book and I actually wrote it down Which is part of the reason why people probably hate it is just like POVs that you had up to this point That you now don't get any of in this book period No, John the on Danny brand Tyrion like they're all gone entirely So it's like that's a kind of like a shocking change to just be like, yeah all of these characters You don't get to see him for an entire book. Yeah, I think I remember Mike actually mentioning how he was so disappointed that he waited like five years and then didn't get a Tyrion POV And I can actually understand that to be honest with you I didn't have to wait so it didn't matter to me and then I do think that that's important to discuss speak Maybe not you discuss but acknowledge the fact that binging something and reading it on real. Oh, yeah There's a totally different experience. I think Dark Tower is another one that a lot of people had issues with as it released And I just loved it So I it's worth mentioning, you know, the fact that there was the kind of Geographical split of POVs, which I didn't know this but apparently Daniel Abraham is the reason why that happened Daniel Abraham told George that that was the best case. I feel like I learned that from you Yeah, I think I might I'm maybe it might have been Alex. Did you mention it? Yeah, I don't remember I heard that but it was recent. Nope. I think you mentioned it on one of these streams I might have I might have Everything is just jumbled in my head at this point, you know Did you did you guys like this pro like where does this prologue rank for you because for me? It's really high. I Mean I like it better than the storm prologue. I agree with that. Yeah, I don't think any of the prologue Is as good as the clash prologue. Mm-hmm. I mean clash prologues, but I think my second favorite prologue is the first prologue I think it goes like clash game others. Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited reread dances prologue This time and see what I think of it because I don't think I paid attention to the prologues enough because we Get some pretty important information in this one like we see a lesser noble in the Tyrell household and Leo Tyrell Who's a complete jerk off? We see the sphinx which is also a great name by the way, I know it's simple, but I love it Which is I think it goes by a rally us here in the old town But we and the deuce by context clues in the book that it's actually Sarela Sam Which is one of Oberyn's bastard daughters from Dorn and she's playing her game, which is fascinating And then we get the citadel I mean old towns we know Tyrion mentioned that the only book about the death of the dragons is locked away in The bottom of the citadel. Yeah, so we're seeing this like first hand And then you know pate said dummy. He just wants to date Rosie. He's just simping hard For me simpson these books. Yeah, and the glass candles are burning in this prologue Which we know that has been referenced by quay to Danny multiple times So this is this is another kind of like perke years up moment and then the alchemist at the end of the At the end of the prologue kills our boy pate and I think we all yeah, I think we all can deduce that that is Jake and hugar Which is wild? To see him kind of come back. He's dead though, bro Jake and switched his face and it was the exact same description of Jake and space after he switched with Arias I mean Jack and hugar Jack and hugar. There is a faceless man in the citadel. Yeah about that. How about that? So it's like when people talk about Prince the artist formerly known as Prince like the man formerly known as Jack and hugar Yes, he's not jacking anymore. Now. He's just whoever Yeah, one a man has no name There's a really interesting piece whenever pate gets the coin from the alchemist and he looks at it And he says I don't recognize this king And then aria is in the house of black and white and sees gold and it's the same coin And that's how you can that's like the definitive proof that it's Jake and beyond the description But also, do you think that those coins are from the black fire rebellion? Do you think do you think it's the black fire came because this whole book is actually foreshadowing the black fire could be I? Thought that was really interesting and it's not something I picked up on prior I don't even know. There's so many like so much theory crafting that I've like forgotten to even Reload into at this point. It's very subtle Very very subtle especially in this book And that's why I think people give this book a really hard time and dance in some regards Because we don't have wins and wins is the next storm of swords If you think about Clash of Kings in Game of Thrones a lot of stuff does happen But man a lot of ground gets laid Before that happens, you know, some people actually find Clash of Kings to also be a bit of a slog Which I don't but there are people who do and I think that We don't give feasts the past because we don't have the payoff yet and maybe never will so But I think on its own right. There's a lot of really good Well, but I mean also Clash has like lots and lots of Tyrion Yeah, so like feast feast is just like it's in addition to like the plot not necessarily having a ton of payoffs It's also a bunch of new people that you don't really care about yet Yeah, like the characters in Clash like we all cared about from Game of Thrones Absolutely, you're and then like you don't mind if they're like faffing around a bit But like feast is like not that much payoff in terms of like a plot events and it's a bunch of new people So you're just like what is this? Yeah, like we'll get into it But like just because I marked down all the pavs that we had and some of them are like in the same chapter, right? Yeah, but I mean between Dorn you get Five characters that you're seeing perspective of because you got aria and aria ares Quentin and Doran unless I've missed some In the Iron Islands you got Asha, Eron, Victarion and some of Euron I mean you're not really in his POV But like you get a lot of Euron and then you have Jaime who carries the book You have Cersei who's like the other big one and then Brienne, Sam and aria So I mean you you have five characters you're familiar with and then like I don't know three six eight Like nine ten characters that you're learning about so I mean that's that's kind of why because you take Probably 50 at least 50% of the book to learn about new stuff But like it's weird because like when I before this reread and the Song of Ice and Fire like a lot of it Just kind of like blurred together into like one lump and like there were specific things that I remember for Like I knew the Red Wedding is in Storm of Swords like obviously Yes, and I remember that Feast for Crows is like half of Dan's and therefore like limited and in my mind Feast for Crows is just non-stop being exhausted reading Cersei and being just like And then door and I'm like what is Dorn? So like but it's weird because like in the jumble of like a song of ice and fire and things I like about a song of ice and fire. I was like, well, I love the Iron Islands. I love Jaime I love how weird Arya's plot line gets when she's with like the faceless man, and I was like, that's all in Feast Yeah, I was like actually And I'll tell you what I actually I think Sam well does a damn good job in this book of being interesting and getting Amon's last moments And there's some really good foreshadowing there and him being the one that's going to the Citadel and Amon while he's dying Having this dream and he says the Stinks is not the Riddler. It's the Riddle and it's like, oh boy Sam well spot. He's just gonna have a bad time And you know, obviously when he gets there, it's really cool and stuff But I want to ask you guys this because we kind of covered this in the last stream And I've been dying to see what you guys think now that we've reread Feast with with this kind of perspective of being experienced readers of the series What do you think about the five-year gap debate? As far as doing a time jump. Yes, because I will say this I have been saying pretty much to this reread that I think the five-year gap was a must it would have been better And now I actually don't agree with myself anymore. I think I take it back For a couple different reasons, but I'd love to hear what you guys think I mean one, I feel like I don't know what his actual plan was of covering that gap I think it makes sense of where you left off in a storm of swords Like where better than to do a time jump then because you just killed a bunch of Starks You've got Tyrion getting smuggled out of King's Landing and Then like every like now would be a good time to do that My biggest gripe is just the age of characters is gonna get kind of silly Just because like I mean ultimately it doesn't really matter like you could write the story and just not have them aged that much I guess, but if you break it down of like, oh, this only took three years like then it kind of gets strange I don't know. It just it kind of depends on what wins does honestly, I don't I think it's hard to say so apparently feast is in a lot of ways the five-year gap and what it represented and So for people wondering maybe people don't know we should but I guess we should by define the five-year gap George had always had the plan going through the books that he was gonna do a five-year gap after The events that happened a storm of swords in the red wedding However, he felt like characters grew on him and he eventually he started writing The the next book and then scrapped it after a significant amount of writing and the reason why it doesn't work is because of Stannis Cersei and John Though what would you do have Stannis sit at the wall for five years? I was actually thinking in terms of just what's going on in Dorn like what they want to do with Marcella You'd have to do immediately. That's right And also you have to show the fallout of Oberon Martell falling because he was such an important figure and in Dorn is hot-blooded They would not sit around for five years That's why they have issues with Dorn because Dorn's actually a great player of the Game of Thrones, but And honestly like the fact that in the eerie the fact that we lost Liza like they wouldn't be just chill for five years That's exactly right little finger is a big piece of that So I mean, I wonder if ultimately he'll just feel like he wish he had aged things up at the beginning rather than do a five-year time jump to do that because You can accept it at face value of like, okay It's been five years since the red wedding happened But it's like but then if you think about that for more than 30 seconds like that doesn't make sense because Everyone just be sitting there before when we talked about five years And I was like the only way I see that working is if it had just been like dispersed where like everything in the books Took a little bit longer so that by the time you get to dance like more time just has passed But not that any we had a gap just that like every single piece of it took a little longer So that's emulatively with their older now Yeah, and I think George was quoted as saying if a 12-year-old has to save the goddamn world Then they will and I was like, you know what it's fantasy. Let's go I mean that does help how medieval the world is because like people did inherit power at very young ages like people You know retirement and death was 30. So like Gotta be king at 15 so you can pump out some kids before you die Yeah, I mean realistically though. That's that's probably what he regrets more is just not taking more more in world time And that's making everybody older because you can't do a time jump and have nothing happen But also going like let's say dance ends or whatever book it was And then there's a five-year time jump and he just kind of like glosses over a bunch of shit that happened That would also feel terrible Well, like we just there's just too many moving pieces all the time because like in a story where you're following one Maybe two perspectives like it's believable There's a lull or they're like, okay, and then they went to the Citadel to study for a bunch You don't need to see that so like five-year gap But in the meantime everybody else is doing stuff. So like you can't have a gap Yeah, and also I think it George is I think he has a pretty intimate relationship with the reader because of how little time passes with these stories In like the house of black and white and in the veil are both extraordinarily important to the growth of Sansa and aria And the reason why is the this is where they're learning This is where their next big change comes from so if he had done a five-year gap He would have had to say hey just trust me aria is a deadly assassin Just trust me Sansa phenomenal schemer and politician. Yes She was a frightened girl at the end of storm But trust me it happened. He said you know what that's not right for those characters And he's he said I'll show you instead of telling you and I actually think that that was the right call I do So I've retract I think in the last three I even said I'm gonna tell you why the five-year gap was a bad idea I'm wrong. I think I'm wrong. So yeah Oh Man Well, you heard it here folks Jimmy was wrong. I'm wrong a lot of the time fire you could ask any of my friends I'm wrong most of the way you have friends you too But yeah, like we haven't okay So we've just like been talking about our impressions and like the reread versus our first read and just very general stuff But like we haven't what is our system? We go through a character and usually we just cover that character Yeah, I think that's a good. I like that flow. I think Well, the way that these are written that's the flow that I think makes the most sense because it isn't really have like Acts because it's all just kind of following characters And I feel like to some degree when these books if they feel like slogs That's why because like more traditionally told stories Even if they have multiple perspectives feel more like you have the first act and the second act and the climax Where is like here? It's just kind of like jumping around like what are you up to okay? Well, we'll catch up with you later. Now. What are you up to okay? We'll catch up with you later like what are you up to and like by the time you finish a book You're like what how it's like one day passed by the time we jump from everybody like around When you have this many characters and all these different plot threads you're trying to get it through it's like Yeah, kind of and that's why those intricacies get missed like the very subtle References like Jamie heard a lot of stuff from the Starks that pays off in this book I got it's a major moment that we'll talk about and he heard it while he was captured and it's like I missed that totally. I've read these things like five or six times and I didn't notice it until now Because of the way it's okay, Jamie. We believe that you're a fan calm down. You promise No, I mean if you say something silly, I might call you a fake fan. No promises They can fake fan confirmed. All right, so then who should we start with first area Hota? the goat Go ahead Jimmy start us off. Well first off He's important because he gives us the first introduction to Dorn and I don't know about you guys but meeting the sand snakes and meeting Dorn and talking to Dorn and him watching the kids play I mean, I thought it just painted such a good picture That was different from any kind of like the Iron Islands different from anything that we've seen in the series The Dorn is so cool. I mean like George Martin is really good at setting. He really is Yeah, sure. Yeah setting and also the difference and Unfortunate and I think we should probably talk about this at some point too George writes a lot of sex right and he writes a lot about the sexual nature of the societies that we're in and Dorn is very Sexual well open right a very open and that becomes very apparent quickly And also we kind of knew that from Oberyn right Oberyn was a bit of a Chad. I Just wanted to say that That's my literary analysis But there's so much political interest immediately because of Oberyn's death And I will say like the number of times fiery peppery fiery peppers are mentioned. I'm like, we get it He definitely loves describing the spice of the food. Oh, yeah, for sure Yeah, every time a description of food start is like, let me guess there's fiery Dornish peppers in there and there they are they really burn on the way out That's like what George is trying to get across to your folks It's probably too far back in our chat, but I remember Mentioning a specific sex scene. I think from this book and I was just like, oh, it's never Instagram chats And I was just like this is yeah, I don't need to know this. This is a bit of a general statement But I do think if there's a detractor to Grimm's work I do think he does seem to edge into voyeurism at times Yeah, and and I don't say that lightly is like by my favorite author But like it's true I think that he does go into a way too much detail in a very non-natural way, especially from a female's perspective I'm like the way that like the words that he uses and it's founded It's like when I'm trying to gross out my wife like that's that's the shit I say like most is Disgusting which like I mean, I think that's also like the slight difference there between like the these scenes Which I feel like they're meant to not be like super romantic romance novel scenes They're not meant to be that but they're also not like they don't feel like they're supposed to be intentionally Gross the way Abercrombie's are because like Abercrombie right sex scenes But you're like, okay, you're trying very hard to make this like aggressively gross Yeah, it makes it feel like George is like getting something out of it, which is just yeah That's why it's like we're in this middle zone where you're like This is not romanticized But like I don't feel like you're purposely being like I gotta make this super gross like it's more just like I think you like this Yeah, it feels like he enjoys writing it The only thing I will say is I think that for Cersei's character arc It actually makes sense to divulge into the details But it is cheapened by the fact that he then describes Sam well and gilly and and whatever else I was literally just reading the Sam and gilly sexy. It's so rough and if it was only from Cersei's POV I would say that that is a good command on perspective because Cersei is a deviant in a lot of ways And I think that it is actually a piece of her downfall is that she gives in to her desires unfortunately Every sex scene is almost described the same way and I do think it the edges on the Again, like also like having if it was like more featured with like only Cersei or like yeah specific characters Then it also serves as a greater Counterpoint to people like Stannis who aren't like specifically calling out. Yeah, as opposed to it just being like Just oh that's just George instead of like oh, this is how the character is like storm of swords like the Tyrion and Shea Scene was a lot like the same in the gilly scene too It's like I feel like Girm was just like having a little bit too much fun like fantasizing in that moment Yeah, it's a bit of male fantasy and I'm not even also like okay, so like I Understand the urge to write that scene But I feel like that you write that scene last night and then next morning when you're going over You're like, okay. I had fun with that but delete delete. We didn't actually need to keep that like, you know what I mean Yeah, I won't read it the whole paragraph, but this is where we get the fat pink mast Which is just Just fantastic Drink to that I Kind of love it That's a good point. Oh Girm is Sam. Oh, yeah, he is Sam that is true That is his stand-in. I think Daria actually pretty much that that's what I would my point I was making Daria's that Cersei somehow work for her sex is literally how she sees power being transacted. Yeah, I That's true. Well, and yeah, it's also just the This idea which Cersei holds a little more I don't know like there is a very sort of like men dominating on a battlefield men dominating in the bedroom and to her Like being able to dominate in the bedroom is an extension of her desire to dominate Oh, yeah That's what she even does in the bedroom when she's like, you know I'm gonna try to like take the band's part here and it's like less of a kink and more of like a I want to like be a ruler and dude and like yeah, because she's thinking about Robert and she's just like I wonder if this is what Robert felt like when he bedded me. So I mean it makes sense that she's just like Hungry for hungry and desperate for power pretty much all the time Yeah, and it almost makes her seem like she was envious of Robert's power in that moment rather than the rather than Affected by the abuse that it was. Yeah, which is a very demented way of thinking about this Omar I kind of like he said but honestly though with Sam him having to do what he did with Gilly was really essential to his character In the uses of Sam's parts fat pink mask It does not inform to how Sam views himself not proudly and I actually think that you're right Omar With that said, I think it could have been maybe a little more brief or less descriptive But I do agree with what you're saying. Yeah, I'm love seed on the leg It's like his favorite thing in the world. It's just gotta describe that it that it's there Yeah, Cersei was very influenced by Robert. I think like I think the reason we don't have like the hugest problem And but we are calling it out is that it's like there are reasons to have this here It's just at times in a specific scene It just like goes a little too long a little too far a little too often So it's not that like none of this should be here. There's no reason for this. It's just that like Sometimes it's a It like overstays its welcome It's relevance, but how about this I'd rather have this than someone that's very prudish about their sex scenes But have like infatuations with it. Yeah, and I'm thinking specifically and I'm not like trying to shit on this person But like Robert Jordan in a lot of ways I thought was very prudish with his sexual writing But yeah, like he clearly was fascinated with certain aspects of it, but he would not like divulge and it's like come on Yeah, it's a very American thing if you get it's a yeah I mean, it's like the the like the lights turn off and like yeah, they did fade to black Yeah, because I mean Brandon Sanderson does that and like that makes sense knowing who Brandon Sanderson is Robert Jordan before writing the Wheel of Time Wrote some very sexual So it's like to but he clearly wanted to like have three characters and love with the main character and like I just feel like it like to a greater or lesser degree and even like that your mileage may vary So there's no universal standard for this But like I feel like some books go so far out of their way to not have it that it's weird And some books go way too far out of the way to have it which is weird And it's just like there are like again there your mileage may vary But like readers can kind of tell like oh this was like important to the character important to the plot and like if you avoided showing it It would be weird and there's other times you're like this is you know Important to the character important to the plot but like a change showed it too much yeah, like I Think it is an American thing though too because there's a lot of people like for instance Guy Gabriel Kay writes a lot of sex in his books and I and I do I actually enjoy his sex scenes I think he goes to the well sometimes a little too much, but that's just a subjective opinion Yeah, but it is interesting in American or American in America. I was reading the comments in Americans But in America we are all for the violence. Oh, yeah, we'll show people getting stabbed on the five o'clock news But any who-who dilly in the cha-cha? We're just looking at like the rating scale for films like PG-13 all the violence You have like one boob in there. It's rated R. Yep No sexual content. It's like a few people But like speaking of like I hadn't read American Gods in a really long time and I just read American Gods again And I had forgotten how often the conversation has to go to that Like the way that the joke will go the joke is always a sexual joke and they're like the story It's always a sexual story and like after a while. I was just like again Yeah Okay, it's me. I think he's a fantastic writer But like after the sick sex scene I'm like, I think I get it Like I think I got it man You're making a commentary on how societies during wartime change the way that sex is like I get it Yeah, let's move on, you know And I do think that feast in some ways had that for me just a little bit where it went into voyeurism rather than I think Dairy even said informative and I think well, yeah, I mean at a certain point It's like, okay, you're clearly just you're writing this scene for you like yeah It's a little bit detailed we're just at the typewriter a little late one night Had a little too much of that arbor gold and said, let me let me write something for old Georgie poor Georgie Yeah, but like no more mentioned Stephen King and I think that's to like the violence aspect perhaps because Stephen King will just like murder children in his books and like yeah doesn't pull punches whatsoever It just it doesn't matter. It's like just shoot a kid in the face. Who cares? But you show the sex scene if you're like, oh my god, yeah, it is interesting what we're willing to put up with And I think it does divulge down to culture For sure it does. Yeah All right, so anyway, yeah Do we want to talk about Cersei because we kind of like our I mean when you're talking about sex you got to mention Cersei, right? So I think I think this is actually a really good point for like why it feels weird Let's see what In character perspective George. Yeah, that's what we're saying is like he's writing it for himself It's not like like that. It's not just like you thinking that he's writing for himself Like the way it's written feels like oh, this is George now. This isn't the character. Yes I agree and that's why like if it was only Cersei I'd be down. I'd be I'd defend it to my So let me do this just to paint the picture as The salmon ghillie sex scene starts God damn it There's the cinnamon wind was spinning all around them and he could taste the rum on ghillie's tongue and the next thing her breasts were Bare and he was touching them. I said the word Sam thought again But one of her nipples found its way between his lips It was pink and hard and when he sucked on it her milk filled his mouth Oh Flingling on now Roman he had never tasted anything so fine and sweet and good. I and that's like that's bad The first couple sentences it goes Way way longer than that like Like the milk really George Listen, did we need to know that her breast milk makes with the taste of rum and cinnamon like like listen, I own tough voyaging I'm a girl fan because He was having fun and yeah, Sam's not saying any of that shit. He's just like oh my god ghillie's naked Like Sam well by the way, it's just phenomenal in this book Sam. Well is the true hero of the story in my opinion It's always gonna write the book at the end And Robert was actually the one earlier he said that he thought that George found a good balance, so you know even as George stands They're like, yeah, it's kind of messed Everybody's got their weakness It's a known kink it sure is and apparently it's Sam's because he's a big old baby Put him in a desk It's like things just keep like suddenly happening It's just like he's thinking about Something and then it's like her nipples in his mouth and then suddenly his penis is up It's just it's also just it's drawing after like how like PG Sam is just all the time and then you get that stuff And are you just like I'm sorry what now It's Sam's the best character And you are cheering them on you like get it dude Get that get that a dairy, I guess, you know Okay, it's a Cersei Yeah, so Cersei how about her hearing things that aren't there like straight up I didn't realize on this on this reread I know see be cray. Yeah, she's like legit hearing voices that aren't there Yeah crazy like a bath. I mean there's You just see her like demise coming from a mile away It's great and she's just like devolving into this psychopath over time, but it's also like It's very I do think like so we were just kind of complaining about George's writing Whereas with Cersei there is a lot of like subtle things he does we're like a lot of times And by the time where we've gotten to this point It does help that we've had outside perspectives to inform what we're gonna go into Cersei's perspective thinking anyway before she says Or does anything we've already like we've got some opinions about her, but um The fact that it is clearly from her perspective She thinks that she's smart and usually in a book if you're in the perspective of a character that thinks they're smart They are because the odd and it's you're like this author's like oh you want me to think they're smart You want me to think that like yeah, they're so clever But it's clear that while she thinks that she's such a clever schemer Like you're meant to see through it and like I meant to be sitting there and like it's not I don't know I feel like if that's a really difficult thing to do and it not come off as either You want me to think they're smart or as like it's so obvious that you what they're doing like she doesn't seem Like you do think she's crazy and you do think she's kind of dumb But it doesn't come off as like too overboard on that either you're not like oh my god She's like literally the stupidest ever like she's believably like there It's not she's completely dumb like some of her schemes like it does take some like of a diabolical Like some chess like mindset to like do that. She's not like a complete nincompoop But like she's also she's her own worst enemy and her it's her paranoia more than anything that makes her unstable That's like Tyrion said like you're not nearly as smart as you think you are It's like she's not and she's not an idiot because she then she wouldn't have any power But she makes a ton of mistakes and she makes a lot of a really emotional decisions. Yeah Oh, yeah, sir first impulse is very big for her Jamie says that she is a lot more like the wildfire of areas than the ice-cold scheming of Taiwan and that is One that's the biggest insult. I think you could give to Cersei because she wants to be Taiwan so bad But she was like, okay I know we're on Cersei, but I love so much like way later in the book It's like in the last quarter I think when Jamie's talking to his aunt and she's like I told Tywin that Tyrion is here. Yes. Yeah Love that scene doesn't she say like Tywin didn't talk to me for a while because of that and you're like dude Honestly one thing all right, we kind of trash George a little bit for his voyeurism But George writes sassy old women better than I think George might be a sassy old woman Like Olenna Tyrell we have a Jamie's well I think because if there's no danger of him get of any like kinky fuckery when he's like talking about Olenna or like aunt Lannister so like her name. It can just be witty. It can just be fine. There's none of Kinky fuckery. I love it terrific Someone in the chat. What is what is her name? Why can't I remember? I can't remember. Oh, I didn't But also we should be able to recognize I think that Cersei this whole book is projecting because she has always been scheming and hiding secrets based all around her Romance with Jamie and also just smart enough to hurt herself. Yeah, and she killed her friend When she was a kid, I mean, let's not forget that she killed her friend. So she's hiding all of these secrets That's why she's a paranoid. Yeah, they have my prophecy It's like whenever someone's cheating in a relationship Usually they show signs of being absurdly jealous about stupid things Because they think that their partner is doing the same thing they are So I think that Cersei feels like everyone has a secret and everyone has a conspiracy against her because she Yeah, I mean like oftentimes like I mean even in real life like what somebody thinks Someone else is up to is very telling about themselves. You're like you suspect somebody of this because that's what you would do Yep, it's almost always projection. Yeah Yeah, but I also like I never thought of it this way before but I was just like while we were talking like I started thinking That like oddly enough like Cersei's like knee-jerk reaction to stuff is an oddly like masculine macho Where like she's very worried about always being Like about her how she's perceived and about how like she should be respected and she should be like It's it's almost like what you associate with how dudes are written How like dudes are like, how dare you disrespect me and like I must be the big man in the room Versus like Tywin and Tyrion and Jamie who are just like we do what's practical We do what makes sense for the family like it doesn't it doesn't matter like okay They can like say something disrespectful But we know we have the power and she has the like this what is like more Stereotypically the male urge to be like, I don't care like you don't disrespect me But that's like an immature male, right? So that's perfectly encompassing like what Joffrey was Joffrey was in Aries. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just that pompous little herb Viserys. I mean just that like entitled young arrogant Dick, I feel like Stereotypically in literature and just in public perception Women are associated with quiet cunning and men are associated with like with being like, uh, What's not broad not boisterous boisterous But also like braggadocious and very like macho and it's weird because like the other Lannister dudes are quiet cunning Cersei is the like And Kevin's telling her you know power and actually have power Cersei just so badly wants to think that she has power that she's like Lashing out like Joffrey did I read that comment and I thought she I thought I said she's a short terrorist I was like Kevin is so good and he also is telling her you need to keep your enemies close Like she he basically walks her through how to use the Tyrells and Omar had a really good comment here He said I think it was really cool how the Tyrells were used this book It's kind of like they were made to look as perfect handsome siblings contrasting Cersei and Jamie I would actually take that a step further and say that they are the next Cersei and Jamie in some ways Maybe without the madness and this is very reminiscent to how Tywin the Tyrells are the Lannisters now Because the Lannisters did this exact same thing to Aries Targaryen as he was going mad That's right and they see the madness and Cersei is now the mad queen I take advantage of it and the Tyrells are next up the Tyrells are next up because of Elena and her guidance so Elena and Marjorie because immediately they're just like all right So Marjorie you're gonna marry Tom and then you're gonna control them and make everybody love you But so like here I mean like the thing is Cersei actually has power and if she behaved like She has it instead of needing to prove it She would be just as able to maneuver as the men in her family Like she'd have you know not to say like sexism is real and like she would have some more barriers in her way Sure than the dudes did but like she has a ton of power. She doesn't have to keep demanding it She doesn't have to keep proving it She doesn't have to keep expecting people to tell her that she does have that power She wants like not just to have power She wants to have the approbation and permission and like accolades from the people that she respects and until she gets it She's not satisfied and now that tywin's dead. She can never get it and it's driving her crazy And yeah, if you need proof of this you can take a look at the small council chapter where she is being Way too heavy-handed with her small council. They are all showing they are I mean they are just Simping for her at this point knowing that she will go off at any moment. Yeah, uh in the small council I think is one Where you kind of really see like the lay of the land that she just surrounded herself with yes men in absolute buffoons To the point where pie cell is on the way out The man who opened the gates for tywin lannister to take over over the keep And she's pushing him out now. We got kibern and kibern and she's handing she handed over um, what's her name? We have jamie to thank for kibern. Uh, yeah, you're right Uh, but also I was just thinking like even though danie isn't in this book at all The way that this book intentionally contrasts sursey with danie because danie has kept fresh in our mind With sursey worrying about the young queen that will supplant her. So like she's not there But we're thinking about her and we've seen a lot of danie's perspective when we've seen a lot of danie How she handles trying to in a man's world trying to get respect and get authority So being in sursey's perspective and like just the fact that danie tells people to be honest with her And that she won't punish that like she's shown her Capacity to be a little bit of a tyrant, but like for the most part She's like I need good counsel and I need you to be honest with me Um versus sursey who's like surrounded as you said by simps by brown nosers by people by yes men And that's like as soon when she was worried about being like, oh, I'm so clever and like I won't ever be like bested by a younger prettier queen and you're like, oh, we've seen danie Even though she's like what 12 like she's a lot more mature So Yeah, it just it shows how like insecure sursey is and how Fragile she is honestly because it's like she has that taste of power And wants more of it and it's never going to be satisfied But also it's like it's that paranoia, right? It's that projection of she constantly just thinks that like everyone's out to get her And everyone's lying and manipulating her and then she does it to everybody else George R. Martin has written a hysterical woman in a way that none of us feel is like you're such a sexist for writing it like this But like because she's a complicated layered character And we've seen enough people characters in this world that are not like hysterical women But like she is this like this poster child of like you shouldn't be in charge because you're making wild emotional hysterical decisions But she is this psychopath. I mean she really has seen that I mean we didn't get as much time with them But joffrey was exactly the same way eras was the same way. I mean there's there's How many men with power in this book Die because Like how they're acting and a lot of them were crazy Yeah, you're right Um And and yeah, like she when she runs out of real threat she starts invent She's never like comfortable unless she's like fighting somebody And that's because of her projection that she knows that sitting on the throne is a child of incest That is not the rightful heir. She knows this and maybe she's having some cognitive dissonance I mean, I'll be honest with you like sir. She's very frustrating to read but may be The best character like as far as consistency goes that george has written There's other ones. I enjoy more than I think are in tight competition with it But the way that he gets cersei across on that page is one of the most masterful things and we have to remember That this is a woman who has lost her child And it is very sad and at some points I find myself thinking about this and I say well, maybe I have cersei wrong But you also have to account for the fact That she murdered her friend because she had eyes for jamie. That is not normal behavior That is not I I have a lot of trouble extending true empathy To someone who has done this now I can empathize with the mother who has lost her child That is a very fair thing to I think anyone could have empathy for that, right? But Cersei as a person is broken. Oh, yeah, because I mean it's well, but also the way that she I mean It's a thing that like, you know Men will blame a child for killing its mother But like the fact that she blames tirion for killing their mother when she herself is a mother and like Knows how this works has given birth. Like it's just like you're crazy. She reached into his crib and twisted his wiener I mean that is I mean when I read that After all these times I still had a visceral response to hearing her abusing a baby in the crib It made me disgusted when oberin told that story Cersei is truly if you like you want to point to a solidified like evil person in the story Cersei might have you know her reasons or whatnot, but like at the core I think she's rotten and I think that's the difference between her and jamie And they thought that they were the only two people in the world And this is the story that we get in feasts that they are not the same person And even though jamie has this reputation for being the king's lair jamie is honestly like when you're in his perspectives He's just like he's very like going with it just like dad wants to do this Cersei wants to do this whatever i'll go with it. I don't care Like he's not and so like cersei was happy to like lead their relationship. He loves cersei Yeah, but the fact that like he he she wears the pants in that relationship and this whole time He's just been kind of like yeah, whatever she wants. It's fine for whatever But like it's only when he's had some time away from her And he's also because he lost his hand and he's gotten to actually like have a wake-up call to like see what she's kind of Actually like to where he's kind of has to think for himself for the first time instead of just like well I'll do what dad wants or I'll do what cersei wants. I'm not gonna think about it Yeah, like the only times he's really thought for himself is when he killed the king And now when he had to be away and had to decide for himself What he was going to do with brian and what he was going to do like when he came back and like He's actually like finally growing up and finally like becoming his own man And realizing that that is that path leads away from cersei. I think I from experience I can think I can a little bit relate to you. I haven't pushed a kid out of the window yet, but Uh, you know, whenever you have something to hear it. Yes. Well, whatever. There's still time Uh, but think about back in old relationships that you may have been in Uh, when you say this is all that matters as long as this is good I'm good and then it's not good and then you are faced with the fact that you have taken no agency In your life that you haven't made any other decisions based on the fact that you just want to keep this thing good And that is what jamie did with cersei and now we see jamie coming into his own having to face that grief But also taking agency and it just so happens that when jamie jamie's so talented He's so talented. He doesn't try but when he tries and he goes to the riverlands jamie's pretty good But guess what all of jamie's mishaps in this book come from the fact that he is still obsessed with the fact That cersei slept with moon boy It really is it well slept with anyone besides him, but yeah, it's a through line in the entire book He's just always thinking about it. It always pops back up And it's in a complete parallel to brian of tarth thinking about the girl with the auburn hair And I know people get really frustrated by that line But if you look at their arcs They're exactly parallel and because of their obsession with these things that they can't seem to let go They actually miss extremely important information in the story in both of their arcs brian misses that the hound is right in front of her Yeah And jamie misses the fact that there is a spy and river run And that is why the repetition and girm kind of goes against what in a lot of places in literature They teach you not to do repetition girm actually leans into repetition But it's beautiful because it's only because of the perspective like we talked about the sex is from girm's standpoint, right? It's gross But this is where girm actually uses the perspective obsession And because of that we miss information even as the reader because we're so involved in jamie's head Well, you know repetition is also really good in the first law So, you know, it can be I love repetition I love repetition I use yes king does it all the time. He did it. I just read later and he did it to a tea Oh, I'm so good in wrestling. I always used to do that Well, that's why I mean like to like step away from specifically like a song wise and fire Like I hate when I never someone says that like there are things that you should never do and you're writing Because there's right any other than like, you know, incorrect grammar I can't think of anything that you should never do because as long as like The a skilled writer has done this in the right place at the right time They're employing it with purpose like there's nothing that you should never do Yeah, I agree. I think there's always a place where you can Insert that and use it to its strengths. I think that that's always an option um In wrestling I used to do this all the time and I'm not going to go on too long of a rant, but right I had a finishing move So I'd be in front of an audience that has never seen me So I would do that I would go for my finishing move Consistently throughout the entire thing like it was the only move I knew And I would keep missing it and then at the end when I finally hit it They all know what they're looking for. Yeah, and then the audience would erupt Stone Cold Steve Austin is all the time he would go for the stone cold stunner get pushed off the ropes dumped out of the Ah, but you know, it's coming. But when he hits it, you know, it's business And George does this all the time repetition is a tool Sorry, I'm a little tipsy If only Rhaegar had married me instead of that's yeah, uh, I was actually uh, that's one of the bullet points I have written down Cersei thinks about Rhaegar a lot Well, I mean she had a shit marriage to Robert. Yeah But also like it's interesting comparing like There is no one Jamie thinks about instead of Cersei like it's always just Cersei Or Cersei is very like I mean obviously like Jamie, but like she wanted to marry Rhaegar Like she was totally fine with that. She wasn't like no one but Jamie. She was like, I mean, obviously I'm banging Jamie But like Rhaegar Even briefly she liked Robert. I mean it was brief, but she wanted to like Robert. She really did And in those moments, and Robert was handsome and charming at a time like yeah, he was even even during You know Jamie and Cersei's relationship like Lancel finds his way into bed with her I mean, it's did she bang cat. All right. So if we want to call Cersei dumb Kettleback Kettleback He's a dumb ass Kettle and also I didn't realize this until I read it Uh, I was I was looking up theories from a feast for crows and I didn't realize this But the kettle blacks were put in a place by Littlefinger. Mm-hmm. That's a really interesting tidbit Very very interesting He's something man. He is he's just man Littlefinger such a good question mark and and I Like what we get from him, but Cersei bangs kettle black. Like why would that be a good idea? Like do you really need to have sex with actually you want to have a really good comparison between Marjorie and Cersei Marjorie doesn't bang the kettle black Still gets what she wants from him Cersei just bangs him. Yep So dumb But this also reminded me of like the presence that we're they were just talking in the chat about like Rhaegar's you know present despite being dead But I was just thinking about how brawn is present despite the fact that we he's not around He's not even in king's landing and Tyrion is the one that hired him But like the way that you get stiff it's of like what brawn's been up to where he's not even on page and you're just like what a guy Love you Yeah, brawn can shine even when not featured Jimmy did you seriously only catch that this time around dairy? I'm really dumb like I don't I don't know My people don't realize I've had a lot of concussions. Jimmy is the kettle black of yeah I am the kettle black of the fandom. There's no doubt about it. I'm big and dumb Um You know, I guess we kind of talked about this leona you kind of touched on but like the valencar prophecy is In maggie the frog Yeah, it's like a pivotal moment in her childhood now She did torture Tyrion prior to this but I do think some of her madness comes from the force prophecy And well, I mean, I think the reason that prophecy like stuck with her so much is because like she was already like before that prime To just hate him and she already was like harboring this like This poison and so then when this comes along to just feed into that and make it like to indicate it it's like fitting facts to It's taking facts and fitting it into your conspiracy, right? So it's like she's seeing everything as like a sign of this prophecy coming to pass And then she also decided that that prophecy is to do with tyrion Exactly because that's what I'm saying is like that's that makes sense to her She's like fitting all these things that are happening like directly into this prophecy She has it in her mind like tyrion's gonna kill me like that's gonna happen This happens all the time in our real world people go and get see fortune tellers and they tell them Oh, something's gonna and they fit it. You can always fit it Uh, do you feel like the valencar prophecy is going to result in jamie killing her because I actually do I mean I'm asher hopes though I think I story wise. I would love that to actually happen and not anything besides what the show did Fucking abandon it entirely I've been pretty on the side that most of the stuff in the show is canon minus a couple things I after reading this, I think it's Fairly obvious that george is going to subvert cersei's expectation that it's tyrion And she and she should see this happening. She should she knows jamie's a killer He shoved the kid out the window and then you put him in the oh my god Can you imagine if he kills cersei and says the things I do for love? Oh my god Like she's about to kill brian or something and he just kills her. Oh my This is going into fanfic territory, but I kind of like it Or better yet if she's a threatening tyrion and he kills her and he says the things I do for love Oh my god He needs to kill her But I mean isn't isn't the prophecy that he's gonna like choke her Yeah, it's it's the as though she has cried all of her tears I think I even have a pull up here. Yeah And when your tears have drowned you the valon car shall wrap his hands around your pale white throat and choke the life from you So she will 100 die from choking So if you think about it the bricks that fell on both of them was just a metaphorical hand Wrapping around her throat. Although can jamie choker one-handed I mean why not I mean it would kind of be elegant if if he has the golden hand of lannister He's like struggling to choke her because he can't actually move his hand Um, I guess he could like crush her windpipe with the golden hand You don't have to yeah, you can kind of pin down. You can do it. Uh, you know, it's um, what's the word for it? I'm kind of trying to remember. There's a choke from behind like in an armlock. Yeah, like a rear naked or a sleeper hold Rear naked chokehold. That's what's called rear naked chokehold. I thought that sounds like let me jamie and sursy would get up to Um Pieces of information we get from sursy's perspective that will play into dancer dragons We see here that davos has been beheaded. Oh, no We'll see I know there's some first time rangers move. We'll see And also we hear that uran is on his way to old town from what waters tells her this uran is on his way to siege old town and that is going to be a major first event in the winds of winter if we get it so those are things to keep um your your uh eyes on but how stupid do you have to be to give this zealot A military The high sparrow she literally hands him the keys to the kingdom Which is why I love all of the perspectives that learn of this and are like What are you? Jamie defends it publicly Reasons for it because that is crazy. So you wouldn't do that if you didn't have a plan on paper without really thinking into it It's like, oh, okay. Yeah, she's gonna arm these zealots and she's gonna take power like cool makes sense Oh, wait. No, they're just gonna arrest you But it's also I feel like um, it's one of those moments that georgia r marten is like This is why children you should study your history Like, you know, because he's obviously a fan of history That's where like half the series comes from and like that's a specific moment where like, yeah Like the reason she does this is she's clearly not up on her history because everyone who's criticizing this is like But in history like it was so hard to get rid of them blah blah blah and you're like, that's why you got to learn your history Yeah Yeah, he is definitely showing us a Lesson in history right whenever you give a religious power too much a Military force that it can be a big problem. Um, and it's also interesting No one expects the spanish inquisition Very monty python s It does feel like it's a regression in westeros society though because look how many people acknowledge the old gods and the new And then you're giving all of the power to the new gods Which means that all the tullies and all of the north are now In a territory where they could be executed to be wage war on Half of it is like it's sort of like the the I feel like it's going from like the very uh idolatrous and money-laden catholic church and history and then the puritanical like, you know, uh, you know I mean that's the part of history that is drawing from anyway And the way that like lutherans and like everybody like came in and we're like, you know The catholic church is evil and you shouldn't have idolatry and you shouldn't have gold And all of you can't just like forgive and let live this other stuff It has to be our way or no way and like that's like the part of history He's drawing from and it feels very like paralleling that yeah And then you walk in and you give the catholic church guns You'd be like see now you guys win. Oh wait. No, you're turning them on me. No, that's what no stop it Yeah, it's very reminiscent to how uh france and I believe it was napoleon and the pope Did not get along But they did not get along at all And maybe we'll see a little bit of that play out. I have a historical fiction writer That's a friend her name's adrian dillard and she's written a lot about the tutor history And some of the parallels that she's been able to draw I was going to say like what it reminded me more of is the fact that king Henry the eighth was like The catholic church isn't giving me what I want So let's go pro protestant and like let's let's yeah, let's support that side and that's very surcy right now Where she's like, I don't care about any of this. Just like, oh, you agree with me like, okay Well, yeah, you guys that's a perfect example That's a perfect example, liana because george is actually on record to being a huge like he's a huge fan of the history of king Henry the eighth Interian in a lot of ways resembles king, uh, Henry the eighth and I maybe I'll look up and talk to my friend adrian. She she's very well-read in this stuff And maybe I can kind of pull some parallels We can talk about that during dance and we get more terrian chapters But that I think you're probably more right liana than I am about the napoleon because I think he pulls directly from king Henry the eighth tons and tons Well, just in general, I mean like the war of the roses and like that's like the part of history that this most resembles Not just like to do with the the church that we're talking about right now But just in general like the cuts to the types of conflicts going on in westeros Yeah, stewart said napoleon arrested the pope Napoleon the balls on this guy, right? He was like, I mean napoleon also crowned himself. So like this guy He's 411 and he just said I don't give a shit I gotta pee real quick. I'll be right back. Don't talk about anything cool behind without me talk about ariza o-kart He's boring. Oh, were we like I'd gonna talk about that and then we just like didn't It's boring move on Were we I think we started talking about it and then immediately just transitioned to sex because like of reasons Because sex sells Apparently that's what hbo thinks anyway Only for the first couple seasons and then you can stop Yeah, you gotta you gotta hook up what happens. That's no it literally was what hbo does Oh, I know It's like all all the tits in season one and then it's like every season it gets less and less and less And then it's just battles because now they've got you hooked with the actual story. I don't have to like dangle titties in front of you All of roommates used to call game of thrones titties and dragons Like oh titties and dragons is on tonight The show cut out so much of the like fantastical elements of the books though Except for like the dragons Well, I kept it in when in the early seasons But then like once we started nearing off book and they were like, oh, we're we're gonna have to continue those plots Let's just not touch those right We don't know what to do with that Not at all I think no traveling or anything what traveling I don't what Well, anyway, um Oh, someone's talking about there's no traveling jamie travels the entire book and says brian But I said brah, I think we're talking about the heroes All right, well, that's fair That's terrian an atheist Yeah, I think terrian would be an agnostic Yeah, I mean, I would say like when someone was they're saying is anyone in this world an atheist I don't think anyone is I think they'd be agnostic Davos there's so much like weird stuff going on. They'd be like, I don't know which one's true Something's going on though. So what do y'all has some authentic thing going on. I don't know which one of you Davos seems the most skeptical But he still respects the tradition of the old gods and is very bothered by them being And he also has like first unlike a lot of other people unlike most people in fact He's had first hand like primary witness to like what melisandre can do So like you can't see that and and not feel any kind of way about She did something that makes no kind of sense I think gurm's also very agnostic in the way that he writes because if you listen to him in interviews He um, I believe he actually classifies himself as an agnostic and he says that none of the religions in westeros are true Which means that he's leaving room for there to be something that's unexplainable in his work And I think that he also views the universe like that um Well, also, I mean like Unless you're going to have some kind of like godly intervention Like there's just no way because usually I mean most religions kind of center or like their point of disagreement is about What happens in the afterlife, but you can't prove And so that's why it's fake because you can't prove it And so like there's no way for a book to confirm which one had it right unless you're going to take us to the afterlife Or you're going to literally have like gods show up like wani python and be like So my plan all along was this and you were right and you were I mean like there's just like That changes the entire narrative at that point So like even if in georgia martin's mind He's thinking like well the ones that have it right are these guys There's just like no way in the narrative that that would be able to be proved Yeah, unless if you go in a totally different direction, which is not going to go Um, like I think i'm a lot melasin has like ascendance and gods and stuff and we actually see their perspective But that's a totally different thing right like that's not uh, not what george is doing Especially whenever it's so close to historical fantasy in a lot of ways He's not going to show that which I like I like And he's shown us enough of like and then we talked about this in the last live just about how like What seems to be the problem is that everybody has picked their part of like what is magical and been like this is the only thing And that's your problem is that like you've built a religion around only this magic is real everything else is fake and you're like No, it's all real So like the sooner you just accept that all of it is that like there There is like something going on with azora high But also there are the trees do see stuff So like they've got they're on to something and like everybody like it's all true So like why did you have to pick one just like Or are they all connected because in a lot of ways people think that the house of black and white And the many face god is actually the stranger in fact I think it's actually even maybe confirmed in canon that that it is the stranger Uh from the old gods because the old gods is seven, right? um well in the way that the The house of the undying talks or not the house of the undying um the What the the faceless men? Yeah faceless men. Yeah, like they're very kind of agnostic They're like, oh, you know, you know, we don't we're kind of everybody. We're nobody like we just we don't take sides Everybody dies Yeah, they accept the fact of the inevitability that mortality ends and what it means to embrace that like they're very like Hands off like when it's time to die you die Yeah, they're like, you know what everybody can agree on that we die That's uh, that's the only thing we're here for and that's no one can disagree with us about that You will die and they're not wrong Yeah Kappa says george seems to have split the truth into multi religions too in a way they all are grasping at the same Yeah, that that's kind of i'm saying like they all have something right some stuff wrong So maybe it's a central power and it probably they have wrong is that like by insisting that this part is true They insist that the other one isn't and they're that's where they're wrong is that like youth your thing is true But also that one is it's not not that because of your thing Yeah, even in this book There's someone and I maybe I'll find it when we're going through povs But like they actually mentioned the stranger in the many-faced god being this kind of the same vein It's almost like if you took like any pantheon any pagan pantheon and you had somebody there was like Zeus exists Therefore, none of the others exist and you're like no, he he does exist But also all of the others exist Well, that's one thing you have to kind of acknowledge if you're religious is that yes You might believe in and whatever like you might believe in Zeus But that means that you're then an atheist when it comes to the fact that there might be a uh, you know Allah Allah would exist right or Jesus like these things like you you don't believe in any of those But you believe in yours so that like the basically the thing everyone's wrong about is that they view their own as mutually exclusive Yes, and like no It's it's not or it's and I like that a lot. It's not or it's and it's a good way to look at it And I think that's what George is absolutely doing here Like I think it's almost Undoubtable that that's happening the couple things that we know for sure is that um, he plays with fire and ice a lot, but that blood Matters a lot blood magic seems to have a legitimate power within this world. Why we'll probably never know Are you saying we'll never know because you won't finish or because they'll never tell us I don't I don't think that's the question that George wants to answer I think that he is really interested about the human condition Where these things happen and how people react to them I was gonna say like part of it that is the most interesting is like in the face of this like how humans respond to it Do they accept it? Did they deny it? Do they fight over it? Like Which like especially again the part of history that he is interested in is also Heavily steeped in religious debate. It's heavily steeped in the fragmentation of christianity and where christianity becomes like it I mean That's the part of history where like it went from being like christianity is a religion to christianity is many religions that they don't agree so like the That naturally the his world and his story has like built in religious schisms and religious Fracturing is like well, of course there is Yeah, it's bound to happen even uh up to I think it's around Uh, you could probably go about 100 years after the crucifixion of christ that there was already Almost hundreds of variations of christianity based on that like at one point Uh, very shortly very early after the crucifixion there was actually a religion Called christianity that both did not believe in one singular god So, I mean that just shows you that that is very valid as far as like human history goes And I think that's what george the romans were very like Adopt stuff as they go Just like oh, yeah, we'll take that one. We'll keep that. Yeah, we'll just collect that air and I feel like it's like I'm just picture like walley from the movie walley where he's like going through all the garbage and be like Keep that or like get rid of that. Keep that get rid of that. Keep that like that's how they went It's like oh this god. Yeah, we like that one. We'll keep that one this god. No use for that one get rid of that And deri's right by the way, she said george has already said no gods will appear. Yeah, they will not appear I think that there will be God like powers that we have like for instance melisandre already does that in this series Uh, but we will zora high. Yeah, they'll never manifest themselves. It'll always play out through believers It'll always that's that's what george is interested in as humans um That's why bravos is probably because it has lots of gods. Yeah bravos is also kind of like In a lot of ways the outcasts from every other place, you know Also, um, because we started out, you know in theory talking about different characters and then immediately abandoned that plan but like, um I talked before about how like dany's chapters fall flat to me partly because and I or at least I think it's because We have no one's word but hers So it just makes it inherently less layered because you don't have like converging perspectives that perhaps perhaps can Afflict with one another and I think that like the fact that we have both aria and sam in bravos That we get two different perspectives on bravos really helps. That's actually a really good point That's a really good point. It's not a singular pov and I know that she's like if our experience of bravos was only arias Like you'd have such a bizarre Like very narrow perceptions like bravos would feel like this bizarre place, but like that it's a pretty normal place It's really just arias part of it. That's weird. It would also feel like Girm just included a different place It wouldn't feel but that and that's one of the things we'll talk about in dance is that george takes a lot of care to set Up the landscape of esos in a lot of different ways Uh in christian from lost services, but bobby b appeared in your damn right bobby b is like a deity in my in my book Why alex has gone do you want to talk about sir? Sir aries oakheart because I don't feel like he's like super duper important Actually, he is but like he's not like crazy important to say like because alex hates him and I was like does he No, I hope we'll just get that out of the way while alex has gotten like that. Let's hurry Let's not put him through that Um, I like the fact that aries gives us backs more backstory to the kingsguard because of the kingsguard at this point Has been told only through a pov of jamie Um, and we get so much backstory to the conflict and distrust within the actual kingsguard which is supposed to be the epitome of honor and justice and He kind of breaks it all down and really flushes that the bit out that the court Um, is not as studious as people think and is on her. Well, but we also like, okay This is why we quickly abandon the plan of time at one character because you brought up the kingsguard And jamie complicates the kingsguard when he talks to laurus and it's like, um Like and I love how like laurus is this like young indignant like gets like very uppity About like this conversation jamie's like, you know, it's like schooling him on. He's a young gun. You know, you can't blame him So, but back to aries ochre Who we're definitely talking about that Well, it's a consistent theme. You're right jamie mentions it aries ochre mentions it And it is a dissection of the kingsguard and what it means and to be honest in a lesser direct way We can see that the kettle blacks are not They're not kingsguard material at all. They're bot men They're almost hedge knights in a lot of ways So I think that the destruction of the idea of the kingsguard is very important in this book But it's also very interesting that ariana try is trying to change westeros to be able to be ruled by queen And we see that through ochre's pov and changing customs while also sleeping with a kingsguard member That would also then break his vows of being a kingsguard member Um, I thought that was pretty cool and it also gives him pause to think well marcella marcella can actually be a queen if I can I love this lady. I love ariana. So why can't I love her as a kingsguard member and why can't I also Crown marcella as a queen like maybe this is actually progression And I think that's how ariana takes advantage of a serio aries ochre In a lot of ways whenever the aries stuff i'm like i'm smarter than this, right? I'd never do this and never say tug at my collar the man got played He shared it but ariana does have sympathy for him after he dies She actually thinks it's very much like the it's kind of like, you know, like when actors or like people die young And it's like suddenly like it's because they died young that like they never aged to become like it like it makes their memory sweeter So you feel like like she I was very happy to play him and if he had survived she'd be like whatever So like because he dies that makes like the memory of him tragically beautiful and it it makes it pure in some way That like that's why she feels better. She never says that she loves him. She says he loved me and doran's like I don't doubt it And by the way area ho to chops his fucking head off like straight up chops the dude's head off but I think like feast was one of those like situations where like This is part of why I was always like dumping or dunking on feast as like You know, then you end up with feast for crows because like the fact that we introduce this perspective in book four Only to immediately kill it and you're just like why the why? Well, we're doing this. I actually agree with you in this regard And I think people misconstrue the red wedding with this moment Because I have argued with people time and time again to say people say george will introduce a character for three Paragraphs of three chapters and he just kills them and it's like that is not the case 99 of the time This is the exception and I would say that sir aries at oak hearts Perspective he kind of gets fridged in some ways because it's like the reverse fridging of usually it's a wife, right? But ariana's perspective, you know a matriarchy or whatever over there. So of course it's reversed It's kind of a cool reversal, isn't it? And also the fact that I do think that this plays into the theme of the king's guard An honor injustice, which has already been questioned with jamie saying well, I killed the king I was sworn to protect but wasn't that the right thing? Oh, no, anyway Anyway Back to me seizing the power that I deserve Oh, man, where did alex go like an interesting counterpoint to sursey because they're both a little bit Like their situations mirror each other in the way that like they want to get their respect to their father They think that they don't have it. They think they have to fight to get it They think they have to like Outplay whoever to get what is rightfully theirs And like it's weird because like in sursey's situation like she's right tywin would never have given that to her tywin doesn't respect her But in arianne's case, she's wrong and she done fucked it up and doran was gonna marry her to the saris Like she was gonna be queen of westeros She she messed up bad And also that revelation in the in the princess in the tower chapter I thought that chapter was one of the best in the in the book When doran starts kind of pulling back to curtain a little bit on what he knows And I think that he doesn't give us everything he that he actually knows because one of the biggest questions from this book That we have to have answered Who ratted on ariana's plan because unlike sursey her plan was very good Her plan wasn't bad But someone in her group told doran. Who was it? Who do you think? I don't know jimmy. Who do you think? I think the safe bets the maester Um, but I have a this is my big tenfoil hat conspiracy Alex is dead guys. I I don't know how else to say this. Um, he was ari's oak heart of this feast for crow's live I'm gonna get that a beautiful leather chair. He has in the back. He actually left it to me as well I love that chair. I actually was gonna get a chair very similar than he got and I was like, I feel like I wish he filmed his videos there Why isn't he like charles dance like sitting there Yes, he needs to film it from above. He needs to have a cigar Or a pipe Dude a pipe would be I have a corn cob pipe back there. Should I should I get it? Don't leave me alone. No, I won't leave you. Don't worry. Somebody uh lost in scary says alt shift nut So I guess I should get my alt shift nut opinion I think and this is one of my favorite things about this book is I think dark star is actually doran's agent First off dark star is said to have slashed miss all. Um, miss uh, how you say it? Marcella's ear off, right? But ariana is the only pov we have and she doesn't see it. So we don't know if that's confirmed But if you think about this dark star cuts the ear runs off It's kind of weird that he escapes all these men, right? He goes and holds up in a hold and then he is going to send Sir balon swan to go get him sir. Balon swan is from westeros He's from king's landing in a lot of ways I think that this could be doran saying i'll send sir balon to kill dark star But dark star is going to kill balon and doran knows this is a good way to get balon off of the Board as a player like he's gone And doran gets no blame because if there's anything we know is doran is amazing at scheming He's been doing this for 20 years since that, you know, his sister's child was murdered and his sister was murdered Like you definitely feel but even though he's not a pov character Like you should write, you know, you should sympathize with your pov character Yeah in that scene when he's like telling arian how it is Even though he's really calm about it. I just like you feel such frustration of the like years of patient planning that's just Over and done and like you like I feel like if he was less of a patient person Like that's the part where you'd be like smacking her and be like Yeah, you want to shake her Great. I planned all that for so long and it doesn't matter anymore. Great. Okay, great And I think I think what what i'm saying is almost that he's taken an extra step because he knows his daughter is a bit of a hot head and I think that Uh When he says dark star is the most dangerous man in doran. It's not because of his sword skill It's because of the information that he has from doran I think doran has put all of his eggs in the dark star basket And that dark star has been promised to become sort of the morning because he's upset It seems like he's obsessed with that title. Like he wants to be important Um, so that's my tin foil hat conspiracy Um, yeah, I dare more than you dream That's the line where I was like doran's up to more than this like it's not just black and white But like this is also true like she wouldn't affect it up if he had just just you know, have a conversation You know, you don't have to tell her the whole plan, but jeez christ Yeah, it's it's a bit of a miscommunication trope, isn't it? But maybe he didn't trust the sand snakes because she's tighter with the sand snakes than she She was still like the like she's gone on this assumption because she was Listening at doors and it's just like dude. Like I know you're keeping it close to the vest, but like You know what she's like like Yeah, I would agree with that I would agree with that There's so many books that I've read where I'm like if you had just said a word I think it's almost like I feel like it's more typical that this type of thing happens in like romances Where you're like, you know, if you would just talk to each other and it's like that same thing like when like this happens You're just like if you had just talked to each other But oh wow omar you see what omar he put the peaches being overripe and bursting also symbolizes doran being too patient And missing this moment with taiwan and other thing. Wow. That's some good symbolism, man There's so much in these books there's also I mean like in fairness like that is like when you're playing the long game And you're trying to pick your moment Like I'm just like playing with the stock market, you know, where you're like, okay Like, okay, do I wait a little longer or do I go in now? Like do I wait a little longer? Do I go in now and like that's It's not even like a thing where like you can know it's not even a thing where like a smarter person make a Better choice. It's just like you got to pick one and you got to roll the dice And and he did roll the dice sending quentin over and we're we're going to talk about that a lot in dance because Man, there's some repercussions to come out of dance for doran that are not good Not good Yeah, textual clue. Yeah, if he and ober and just let the kids into the plot a little it would have been a little easier I think of uh fellas and I've been on a melasin kick But felicin and melasin is not given the proper information and it causes her a lot of grief and I always think about that When I think about things like this where like if you would just trust the female with some damn information It would all go so much easier So much easier Did alex like get abducted by aliens like is he coming back is my question I mean he has kiddos. I understand. I don't know I just want to I don't want to like dive into something that's really juicy without you know alex here to give his input Well, you know, you've read all of first law and he hasn't so Just shout him out that for the weight itself, right? a new arm We could talk about victorion because I don't think that he's like Super integral here like alex of fridge rip Uh, so victorion murdered his wife What a guy Though uran did sleep with her which also like I mean can we talk about maybe not? Any particular perspective, but I always think it's interesting Um, whose perspectives you chose to tell this story. Yeah So like with the iron islands you almost think like well the perspective to choose is you're on right? Like that's the one that'd be a pov character and he's not Yeah, so like I just I don't I think it's interesting Which perspectives he chooses and then also unlike which is where like the dissing of face recourse comes in but like Dover Cromby was like that's what I was talking to him about about like How he felt that you have to be very disciplined about like you've chosen your perspectives and you stick with them And that like if you just like start adding a bunch of perspectives Then like whose story is this and you're like, well, sorry my son fire. I'm looking at you But like at the same time like okay, so like he does add perspectives if and when need it but so like the It's not just a question of okay, who did you choose and why but who did you choose when and why? Because like it's not that you'll never choose perspective if you haven't yet Like if we haven't seen this perspective unless they're dead like they could always be a perspective someday So like why is someone not a perspective or why are they a perspective is very interesting a great question The ponder especially victorion and you're on with your history and the reason why in my opinion is because I think you're on the fraud I think he's lying We pretty metal though. Oh, he's met dude. I think he's one of the best atmospheric characters I've seen on page and like quickly aside on the show the actor they chose for him is a good actor And he could have totally played you're on well, but the way they wrote you're on Is bullshit this backwoods bam Margera. It was dog. Shit. It made me like I don't blame the actor for it at all He would have been fine Though apparently he was couldn't interview saying that he didn't care about the books and he never read them And never would so you don't have to be an actor doesn't have to care about the books to play the role well This is true. They wrote it poorly They included in like the second the last season, which was a mistake. This had to have happened in season three or four Uh, it just shows oftentimes with stuff like this. I almost feel like an actor. You're better off They don't really know because like they're gonna be too like up in their Feelings about like making this right as opposed to just like here is my slice of it I just need to be in tune with what this character is wanting and feeling and doing and that's what I'm here to do And like that's what the actor's job is it does not matter if they like have never even heard of jordar martin Yeah, and and honestly amilia clark is a good example of this because she went beyond what we know of denaris and then Acted out the rest and whether or not you like where she ended up is a different story But I think her performance as an actress she actually grew during the show Like I think from season one to season eight season eight. She's a pretty damn good actress season one Also, isn't it? I feel like I don't know if this is true And I don't know if I heard it from you or from someone else But I feel like I heard that um The scene in you know the episode where she's on her dragon and she's like having her She did she did not know the journey She didn't know what she was reacting to and you're like the journey she her face takes you on is impressive And uh, you can see why after the fact you'd be like, I'm sorry you wrote what for that Yeah, and that's actually true that that is from everything that came out and that uh, you cannot kill a burn a dragon or whatever It is that book that tell all uh that that is apparently what happened And I would say amilia clark whether you like where it came or not if her it was rushed or whatever She did a phenomenal job of relaying it through her facial expressions. And I think that Tyrion or in this uh regard, uh, mr Peter dinklage uh did not read the books either So I think that he is a great Tyrion and he did a great job until they stopped writing him so well um So yeah, I think the year on actor could have been he was he was well casted He was well casted the like interview with them. I want again I think I mentioned this in like probably several of the lives But like when they're talking to peter dinklage about like the long night and he's like and he puts the women and children In the grip. So I guess he's not that smart after all And like you can see how like peter dinklage and like a bunch of the people in the song of isan Or the game of thrones cast were very much like bark hamill on the press junket for star wars who were like I trust the directory of on the way. I think this is terrible, but it'll be great guys. It'll be great That kind of embodies the difference though. I think george is going to take us to some really Really bad places with characters that we've loved a k a Tyrion danny Bad places and this isn't the same as stupid places But that's what i'm saying the show Kind of copped out and and when you cop out on and when you're lukewarm on some of these things Uh, it can end up making them seem stupid. Wow, alijah. What's tossing right over there? Well, alijah needs to go listen to his buddy andy circus read them so good So good andy circus. Oh man I just like I'm always saying that like uh, steven pasty like every I don't want anyone but steven pasty But I was like, okay except andy circus like andy circus and steven pasty can just like split up all audiobooks in the world We'd be good um One thing I wanted to note about uran. He says that he threw a dragon egg into the sea during a dark mood that he had You know what? I think he did I think he sold it and I think that the faceless man at the citadel Was hired by uran great joy with the I think he sold the dragon egg to the nameless uh, I'm sorry faceless men That's or they or the faceless man found it in the water. They're bravo See well, it may it does make you wonder that if do the faceless men have a reason to be You're alive We thought george killed you. I don't think he can hear us Hey, alex Hi Are you like john snow you got resurrected for the end? Yeah, no, um My son woke up crying and has a fever and all that kind of good stuff. So oh poor guy. Yeah great skill I was considering making a joke about like the babies that are like in the In the books that I was like, no alex's real life child has a real life Yeah, germ has uh done some pretty horrible things to children So we were just glad we don't live in westeros at this point true So me and jimmy figured out how the whole series is gonna end. Yeah, we don't have to bother you with that Fuck the queen. That's We were talking about victarion and we were talking about how he killed his wife because you're on slap with her Um, but also we were just talking about like it's interesting like which perspectives he chooses to use one Like who he makes a p ov character Is that the real So quick asking a question that no one would know Enders game what's your man has no name? But knows that enders game is a pile of shit. Let's go Enders game is overrated trash um So the dusky woman by the way the uran gives victarion definitely a spy Like how can victarion be like? Oh, i'm so glad my brother who Got me to murder my wife gave me another woman Look at like it's I feel like the instinct of an author would be to like make the p o v characters The most intelligent players so that they can give you the most like interesting and most like Um, not just interesting but like they'll have a it's believable that they would suss out the situation So like they're good eyes to inform you about what's happening because they'll have picked up on it But he often chooses the most dumb the most ignorant the most like like he picks the character I'm just looking at no idea of everyone saying that I died. Yeah, we were just going on On about how you really got fridged or like you killed me I got stuck and I fell into the toilet and got stuck Liana, do you think uran's a Fake with all his braggadocious claims that he's gonna like have the horn for the drag. I mean he does have a horn Do you think it's real do you think he went to valeria? I think he has something Like I don't think it's like just like absolutely nothing But I don't know that it's what he says it is I think that the horn that sam is taking the old town And the one that uran have or switched I think that sam has the one that calls dragons and I think the uran has the one that brings down the wall And I think uran's gonna eventually blow the horn and the wall's gonna come down. That's my theory I don't have any suss but he's just gonna accidentally do it. He's gonna think he's How would they have gotten switched? I don't know. Let's not get the details here Well, let's say that they're not switched is sam gonna accidentally blow it and like collapse the wall Could you imagine that'd be such a sam thing? Yeah, that's a good point about victoria victorion and uran and I will say this about the iran islands We see a lot of brother dynamics in this series We see ed and his brother or and obviously he was burned in an anterian How would uran know what it does? The horn is magical but how would yeah, that's true. Uh, that would that would mean that someone he took it from would sell it on twitter He saw it on twitter Think uran is going down a lovecraft path. He is going. Oh, yeah That's why everybody loves book uran though Book uran he was he was so bastard eyes in the show because he was just which is again That we were talking about how the actor who played him would have been fine. It's all right Well, it's also the motivations of the character uran in the show literally said I just want to bang the queen Yeah, I went to bang the queen game. They bang the queen. It's so like honestly I feel like Honestly, like I have so much respect for like the actor who played uran and the way you played that character Because I feel like out of everyone he took one look at that script and was like I know exactly what kind of fuckery this is and i'm just going for it I'm gonna be the full on he did play the role Hamming it up like he was like he knew what kind of show this was now and that's what he was doing Yeah, he actually played it pretty well. I would say But the motivations for uran in the book are so much more. He wants to be a god He has blue lips from taking a shade night shade, which is what the warlocks Are taking yeah, yeah, he's just so much more fascinating and if he has been okay, we didn't uh, They weren't it's not in this book at all But like I was really disappointed that they didn't have dario niharis look I was like weird, you know, like the like the like The like beauty standards of where they were at with like the different colored like facial hair and the like Doesn't he have like uh on his teeth something? Yeah, he I think he might at some point even have blue lips. There's a there's a big theory that uran is actually Dario, I don't believe there are so many theories in this book in these books that everyone's just like what else can we think of? Just everybody is everybody else the other way like wait walk me through how timeline wise Dario could pop over to the iron islands after having been with daddy. Have you ever seen him in in the same room? That's literally what the theory comes down to I don't subscribe to the theory, but I understand the motivation behind it It's the fact that dario is a love interest of nanny and uran makes it very clear that he wants to Link up with Danny a bunch of people want to link up with Danny That it is kind of are they all dario? Yeah, they're all dario and they're all jacking But yeah, I mean if you look and if you look up like images like honestly like the actual fuck boy in the books is dario Dario is a fuck boy I feel like they probably thought dario would look too goofy Because he has blue hair like a blue beard and a blonde mustache in golden. He's literally blue beard Yeah, yellow facial. Yeah, I just I mean if you look at illustrations of them I mean, they wouldn't even give Danny purple eyes like they weren't gonna power cowards The witch I just feel like that's one of those things that like if it's handled well enough that like That's what makes a world interesting is the fact that like it doesn't just look like a medieval europe And I think they did a little bit with like the style of the hair and the dresses in king's landing Where like this looks like it's its own era and its own style where like, oh, this is from game of thrones Like this is a an aesthetic that they go for in that world And I just feel like it's like cowardly to not go on and show different like other cultural aesthetics Like I mean, it's a very almost like kind of egyptian aesthetic that they went for like the way he's described And that doesn't have to look silly like they could have made dario look You know the way that he's described in the book and not make it look ridiculous I agree just go full hunger games. Just all the way also I mean like if anyone could pull off the like blue facial hair and gold teeth It would have been it's grind so as soon as he was not in it anymore Whatever kind of a wrap it's kind of a wrap The the new replacement dario was just like the most generic bland I feel like uh, it's grind smile and his teeth are already kind of like I don't know how to describe it, but I feel like gold in there would not go amiss Yeah, look normal Let's just like go with this like weirdly like I don't know how to just explain this any other way But eds grinds face looks very like it's made out of sharp points. Yes And like his teeth just like I just like have some gold in there like have some pointy blue Like it would have looked normal for him to have a few gold teeth and some weird hair color I wouldn't have even noticed the gold teeth Like yeah, that's just what it looks like. What are you talking about? He was in Deadpool. Okay dark. He looks like some of you see a star That's true. Well, like they didn't even try to find somebody that looks kind of like eds grind It was like, oh, literally. I didn't know he'd been recast and I was like Who's this guy? And y'all he just he looks yeah, he looks very forgettable and he looks very like, um I don't know the thing about this is not even in this book But the thing about dario is that in addition to how like the the description of like the blue hair and the gold teeth Like he's very like this like wild card that like everyone is telling her not to be with because like He's just she's the bad boy. He's the bad boy. Yeah And like the the the new guy looked like that steady reliable best friend Who's been your boyfriend all through high school and all through college and you can trust him to like Helping a joint bank account with like he didn't look like this like risky wild card. That's like oof, but also uh-oh He didn't have that energy at all As just all haha, yeah Yeah, I fancast That's crying is just all but also I changed my mind since then and I think that's crying should play shivers I can see that I can definitely see that. What's this liana talking about first law again I didn't thought that way. No, I did what you were gone a little bit. I'm sure you said at least one thing So the povs that we have left are like aria jamie brian and sansa I think we should start with aria because she's the most distant and also probably the I wouldn't say the least interesting but she gets a very little in this book I think we'll say like with aria like all you get is questions And so it's hard to like talk about it because like all you're doing while you're reading her chapters is going like oysters clams and cockles The one thing that you have to admit though is her first chapter is one of the best Chapters I think as far as introducing a new place like the bravos and the titan and the way george explains that And then we actually get inside of the house in black and white and it's like so enchanting. I loved it I was kind of just eating the details up and I Well, you're talking about like the sometimes weirdness of the writing What does she do to the faceless man that first shows her his like gross face? She does something that's like kind of kinky and I was like I can't remember She like whites his tongue or something and I was just like Yeah, I can't remember it is something like she like Bites or like sucks on it. Yeah, it's something like that where he's like, oh, no one's gone that far before and I'm just like Like damn it george But like otherwise Yeah, I like I said before that like one of my favorite things in a song of ice and fire that I forgot was in feast for crows Is like the when aria goes to bravo I was like that that is like peak georgia martin being weird and I love it Yeah, omar said in the chat. He said arias chappers and feast And forward is honestly some of my favorite content the series you get so much of her identity conflict from the Back and force of the kindly man and lots of info about bravos and the faceless men But still so much unknown just super sharp dialogue in those chapters Also, just assassins many face man are so damn cool. Yeah, I think that especially the kindly man That's a very good flex of george giving very specific dialogue styles And also we were talking about how george r martin has like no discipline with like how he goes into the kinky fuckery but I feel like he does does display a lot of discipline in the fact that as like The like urge to go and be really edgelord about the faceless men and he doesn't like they it doesn't feel like this like Super edgy. No, I take it very serious Like like they're assassins and like it doesn't feel very like look how cool. This is like they just cute like, you know, like it's very He's very muted about it and he's very patient about it and it's not that Yeah, she eats the worm from his skull is is the thing Fucking metal, but what else is she supposed to do? Like her mother just got murdered her family's dead I mean, I'm sorry when your family dies you eat the worm out of a skull Yeah, you don't every once in a while every now and then you're gonna have to do it But we still even with already being really weird We still get callbacks to her being a stark because she looks at needle And she whenever she's trying to put it away and she says needle was john snows smile That tugged on the heart string weird thing to say I thought it was beautiful. I just uh, I feel like in so many books, right? You know like a character is it told that they have to make sacrifice and they have to give up something and you're just like Yeah, yeah, just give it up or whatever But the way that like when you're watching aria consider giving up all of her stuff like you're sitting there going like Don't give up needle. You can't and like you feel it as much as she does where she's like Like you don't question the fact like in other books where you don't care that much about it You'd be like, uh, if she had just given it up like it would have been whatever Like you're with her on it. You care enough about this that you're like I can like oh, I'll be so don't give up needle like I'm with you like Am I seeing this right because now I already because I read this the you know first thing in january aria only has three chapters Yeah, it's very brief, but she's in both books. So she's in dance a lot Um, and it's probably because it's uh, george's wife's favorite pov Not just show aria. Yeah, she's favorite. Yeah It's mac like assassin. It's not super warriors like so many other all and also they have a code We kind of talked about earlier, but like they're very, um, black and white When it comes to that like they regard their duty as a very like this is like part of their duty And like it's not like we're such things. Do we kill people? Like it's not that You're talking about Never night slash empire of the vampire that you do that you two Listen, don't hate. Okay. Jay's trying to do something special, bro Jay, bro. I cannot believe that book is on my shelves. I hate both I love it All right, I think it's time to talk about sam while the slayer can we talk about sam the mother fucking slayer? Sorry, I won't swear as long as we don't talk about the thing anymore. No, we already talked about the the uh, You know the pointy subject the fatty pink one I'm saying is there's a lot of references to sam and his archery in this book in brooks prior And I think it's gonna matter and it's interesting to think that sam well think about there's three characters that are really important going forward The sphinx has a special bow in old town Sam the only thing he's competent at at the wall is archery and there's tons of archery references and uran Is showing up at old town the siege of which sam just arrived to I think That's sam you're on. I think that he's going to kill You're on and it's very interesting that urans Banner that he flies is with one eye because he has the eye patch And sam wells is of an archer Yeah, the tar or the sam will tarly or the tarly family banner is of an archer So yeah, I have this vision of that bow paying off that a lairis has or salaris Sand and that it will end up being sam well that shoots the bow that kills you're on That's my guess and it would be very apt because uran in my opinion is a fraud and a fake and for him to be killed by the biggest Quote-unquote coward in the series would I know we I know we technically already move on But before we move on from aria what omar was saying about the way that like Needle is where urmines are that she's a stark versus how ghost is what urmines john that he's a snow That they each have a token that like keeps them from relinquishing their identity that they Like hold on to And they're very tightly coupled in the series. Don't don't say coupled. Please about them Please don't That was george's original attempt. Yeah. We already know what's happening. No Because I'm also picturing fucking kit herrington with mazy williams and just that's the only reason you don't like it because a kid I mean, I would also just think it was weird, but like The the incest portion would be a little odd We already got incest with kit herrington and his a lot of incest in the in the story anyway So oh also dairy brought up a really good point Sam is also now thinner and fitter and getting really good at shooting things tizando Daru Daru sorry And also him standing up To dairy in and punching him in the mouth was so satisfying But then the doofus falls in the water and almost drowns It's so good Like it's like peak sam it's p. Yeah, that's a good way to put it It's peak finally do something cool and then just completely embarrass yourself Yeah, and we get all the cool stuff from him on the way there like he's talking about the valiant stores Swords i'm sorry, and how important they are and You get started thinking about you know, we get doran So like where's you know dawn at the sort of the morning usually carries dawn like where's that at? And then all the amon stuff in this book's really good like seeing amon in his last moments thinking about how bad he wants Also, like I don't know. I mean you're better at like Lore and like theories, but like I don't it really really stuck out to me The part where he was thinking that cold preserves and that they should have kept amon He lived longer than he even would have because he was at the north because cold preserves and that like Versus now taking him to a warmer climb Is what's killing him I just feel like that has that means something. I think that that's just very symbolic Think about ned stark. He goes from the north to the south But also the fact that like it's the walking dead in the north because cold fucking preserves Amen dreaming of a man named the dreamer before he died was also interesting and obviously I talked about the sphinx um I don't know. It's weird It's weird to see amon go down. Uh, it's it's really sad even though Because of like how often like we just hear about like old people and like poorly people being sent to warmer climbs for their health And the idea that like he was in the uppermost north for his health and that being in like florida of westeros is what's killing him Yeah, that's actually a good point too. It's it's kind of the reverse, isn't it? And you would think for a Targaryen like for a stark to like need the cold You'd be like, yeah with stark's need the cold, but for a Targaryen Like you'd be like he should thrive where it's hot. Yeah. Well, alex is right. He hasn't been Targaryen for a long time He could have been king. He could have been king He's been at the wall for How long? Well, he's been there for 80 80 years because he's like a hundred and There's even 90 when he dies. He might have been there for like 70. He's been there for a long time 70 80 percent of his life He's been since summer hall the tragedy at summer hall. He was already at the wall. Um One thing that I think is interesting about him saying that the sphinx is the riddle not the riddler There is a theory and I actually think that this is the most far-out theory that I do subscribe to So there is a lot of times in the series where it is said the dragon has three heads Right, and we think dany john young graparian a lot of the time So what if what if Solaris which is a lairis the sphinx at old town What if she is reigning is Targaryen? And the reason why I think this makes sense is that the only time that that phrase the three heads of the the dragon has Three heads is mentioned in the series is by a Targaryen or about a Targaryen And out of nowhere in this prologue go look it up. The sphinx says Randomly the dragon has three heads and you're like, why did you say that? That's weird You're from don't like it's it's obviously Solaris saying it's obvious, but it's like She's like a bastard daughter of the Targaryen. Yeah, it's it's a little weird There's something going on with the sphinx. That's more than just her being from dorne Um, it has to be more than that. So what do you think of this? Maybe the cold helped keep his targside down and allowed him to become wise He was 103 when he died. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense because The more he distanced himself for the Targaryen side the longer He was going to live because if you look at any of the royalty from Targaryen's very few when we breathe through fire and blood We'll see it very few made it to an old age Just knowing about what lies beyond whites they know. Yeah, he does think about that It's just weird because we see a man obsessed with Daenerys Before he dies and then he just happens to mention the sphinx which we saw in the prologue I don't know. I think there's a lot going on with Selaire sand. Uh, and maybe maybe It's reynes Targaryen that we thought was killed by the mountain. Maybe so is Is she in old town or she in doran? She's she's in old town Because when doran talks about the sand snake, she says well, what about uh, sorellas and she and yeah He says, you know, she's off playing her games and a lot of people say, oh, that was shea. Shea was a doran That's not that's not fact. I don't I don't think that that theory is correct um It's two theories and a lairis is also sorella spell backwards And it's the riddle not the riddler. So the riddle is solaris being a lairis backwards But it's just weird that aamon brought that up And then in the prologue solaris or the sphinx or whatever you want to call her Yeah, which is posing as a male, which doesn't look like a male, right? is saying The dragon has three heads How weird There's something going on there. It's all i'm saying Isn't that dope it could event. Yeah, but The only reason I don't care that much is I feel like that could just be one of those things that never gets Resolved. Yeah, there there is definitely a chance. I mean, I think And also wait just this random like do we think that the souls are trapped in the bodies of the whites? Or are they just animated flesh? Are they alive if the souls are trapped in the whites that makes everything a lot more interesting But it also or It's just a very different question, you know, like is it like these They don't seem like they're themselves coming back to life because if you came back you wouldn't behave like that So like is it just bodies that are moving or are they inhabited by some other entity or are they themselves like? What is dead may never die Yeah, and that and the uh, amen quote sam We tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend or Amen was spitting before he ate the dust god damn Uh, a lairs couldn't possibly anyone else than serella. Well, I I mean I would agree Like I said, I think this is the most far out theory that I'm willing to subscribe to like I don't subscribe to the Jamie and you know Cersei being target. I don't subscribe to any of that stuff But this one is interesting or Tyrion being a Targaryen Yeah, I mean it's fun to think about but it doesn't really make sense in the context of what the story is trying to get across But I if you look up on search of uh ice and fire You will see the only people who ever mentioned our Targaryens in too many secret Targaryen too many see They can't all be Targaryen But we say that but it's because we also are considering all the ones that are like cold yearly ridiculous I do think that Alaris or serella whatever you want to call Um her she's up to something. She's playing a game in door nose. So A lot of cool stuff Didn't one of the whites remember things when he snuck into the wall in game of thrones that is correct He remembered where the lord commander was housed. That's right. That's a good point. Also There's a difference between I don't I mean, I know that muscle memory is actually in the brain But like, you know, there's a difference between muscle memory and like being yourself Yeah, that's true. And also like remembering like, you know, a geolocation's not the same as Saying I love this person or I hate this person We're getting into Battlestar Galactica Cyclone territory Oh Danny Bring the whites spring this I do think that the whites are going to have a much more symbolic purpose in the books than it did just in the Um In the show I think that we can look forward to that if we if we get the uh subsequent books So also, is it uh, I just thought of his time at Melisandre, but like isn't it in this book that it's uh Really pointed out to us that the this like flaming sword is has no warmth. That's why it's not the real thing Yeah, you're right You're right. Um, the there's a certain property about it that that isn't true. It's just that it's on fire It's just like yeah, the like it has light but no warmth. That's right The real sword would have to actually Be like the warmth of fire and then further than that we see Danny see somebody that is Basically casting no shadow meaning that they're a fake and that's obviously stannis being azora high I think Um, dary brings up the george to also deliberate confirm that aries could have conceived terry and that is correct uh, also One of the reasons why I like the surrella sand equals reynes targaryen theory is that george when asked if reynes was dead He said without a doubt everyone in westeros believes that she's dead He said that and it's like okay That's such a weird way of saying it that like you almost feel like and he's probably messing with us because george is a sicko But it could also just be that like he's toyed with all these ideas himself And he's put enough things in place to where he could choose which one of these things he wants to write And he'll see when he gets there because he doesn't even he hasn't decided That's the beauty of the gardener approach And we kind of talked touched a little bit right on john and aria being supposedly going to be romantically involved in the original trilogy outline All that stuff that was foreshadowed now We see it because we know the outline if we hadn't done the outline We would have just written it up to brotherly and sisterly love right So which is why like a part of me like so like I don't know like I'm always of two minds because like part of Me like loves, you know the idea of like taking this world seriously What does it all mean but also I know that like the author themselves are like Sometimes they plan something sometimes they've like put something in and other times they'll hear what you have to say and they're like Oh, did I do all that? Uh, yeah, I meant to do that So like part of me is always just like how much am I just like giving this way too much credit? Yeah, I think you're right I think we always have to take a step back and realize that the author probably doesn't know I think steven king was really up front about that because he has a similar approach to the george and his writing style Uh with dark tower he never knew at the ending and then he took it in a very weird direction And george is leaving himself option, which is the best way to go when he write like him Kappa mike says what does dragon having three heads mean though? There are three targets in the world I actually believe I truly believe that the reason why regar picked up the sword. He said I now require sword training It wasn't to win the iron throne like the ultimatum in the show like that was the ultimate outcome in the show It's about the white walkers It's about the white walkers and the children of the force and it's going to be way more fantastical So the fact that the dragon has three heads is probably some sort of Convergence to where three of the Targaryens come to defend humanity against the existential threat that is the white walkers That's my opinion Prophecy will bite prick off Well put george But which I also think like is kind of like talking to the reader and being like if you try to guess too much Yeah, you can go down to rabbit holes Like we're sitting here like all these silly characters trying to read into prophecies Meanwhile theories about what this could all mean and you're like you're the same you're worse than sursey We might be worse than sursey confirmed Um, I I think now I think it's good to go to jamie to brian to sansa because brian's journey Lannister Jamie is definitely the way to go next. I think I wish alex was here, but obviously, you know life does call Well, wait, no like we can talk about something more boring Before we hit jay me because jay me jay me. Okay. Let's talk about sansa. How about that? Fucking sansa. Who cares? This is a small detail that I really like Mord the jailer if we remember from the clash of kings chapters or is it game of thrones when tirion's taken captive? It's game of thrones You know more the jailer has brown teeth in that book and land and tirion offers him gold and he gets out Well, guess what mord the jailer in this book has golden teeth So I guess elanister does in fact pay his debts. I thought that was really cool I actually thought that the little thing you were going to talk about is just that like she is no It's not sansa's perspective. It's elan's perspective Which like, you know, I just I like that george r r marten trusts the reader to like just get it, you know that like you don't have to like I feel like there's I get so annoyed all the time and like if you see all of my like ranty vlogs and all my like, I don't get it videos I hate it so much and now my new thing Don't tell elix, but my new thing is to break up a song of ice and fire not first law to be like You know to deliver world building information to deliver character development to a reader where you don't feel like the Author's talking to you where you just trust that we're going to get it and that like if you've written a clever character Then we're going to think they're clever and you don't have to sit there like so this is clever Because you see what this actually means is that these are and you're just like oh Like that didn't make me think it was clever. I either thought it was or it wasn't and you telling me is never going to help It's like someone explaining a joke Exactly, it's exactly like that and so then I feel like A less confident and a worse author would have done the elan thing But would have aggressively been like that sounds Whereas like he just like lets it ride and like it's clear to us Why and it's even told to us in the previous book that like at all like peter tells her like even in private moments You have to be elan because we don't know who's listening and so in the next book Evened in private moments between the reader and the character She is elan and george trusts us to just like ride with that instead of being like and of course She thought of herself as elan because peter had told her that even in private moment You're like the worst author would do that and you'd just be like I get it You're right. I think george is a really good job of Trusting his reader while also sprinkling in information repetitively. Um, it's one of the things brandon sanderson does too much I think is where he's very very very repetitive information He's like a good teacher, you know like a teacher I mean in a classroom, you know where you were like you lead the student to the answer And you don't just be like figure it out because like i'm not going to teach you and you're not like bashing them over the head With the answer you lead the student to the answer so that they feel they came to it and they had help But like they got there on their own and you didn't smash them over the head with it like Yeah, that's the way to go and trusting your reader and also giving like a leash to be wrong about these things is very important Um, I think it makes you engage with the text in in a way that a lot of authors do not It's some authors take it even further like gene wolf But george does a really good balance of being accessible to the masses while also having in this undercurrent that happens in his His text that we can latch on to and reread three four or five times whereas I think also the difference is there um that like While one might you literally do not understand what's happening unless you engage with the text versus like You can read this at an utterly surface level and just read it But like if you bother to engage with the text there's more to be found and that's when it's successful because like That makes you want to work for it because you're like, I mean I could just read this but like What if I just like dig a little deeper versus a book that's like I literally can't understand this and I unless I dig deeper I'm just like fuck you Yeah, or it's a lukewarm experience if you only take the surface level events Yeah, whereas like george is like there's plenty of stuff here for you if you want to look for it But in the meantime, here's like a pretty good yarn Yeah, I think that that is why girm has found its commercial success while also inspiring a lot of people who Do enjoy like the nerding I think it's also why you know movies like the matrix have commercial success because it's like a fun action movie But if you want to like engage with the like deeper themes and the philosophical Parallel you know illusions and whatever like there's a lot that you can engage But like also you could just watch it as a fun action movie and so then everyone can have fun with it Yeah, I think I think that the best pieces of work can play that way with both crowds Yeah, and it also is what makes it a rewarding reread because you can't just like breeze through the series It's just like I'm just like I having a fun adventure story and then you reread it You're like oh, I didn't notice all these things and in the third time through you're like actually I think this is all connected. I think this is foreshadowing I think this means something and then you know like the millionth time through as jimmy can tell you Is when you become a full member of the cult You're right and and someone pointed out in the thing I think it's johnny come lately says a lame stone in quotes Allow, uh, you know no correlation there to lady stone heart, right? Because stone is the bastard name in the fingers also I know what we decided to talk about a lane while alex was gone, but brian meeting lady stone heart Oh, I mean that's one of the best pieces of the story One bridge from brian to sanza is we meet the mouse Through brian's pov and I don't know if people caught this but sanza meets the mouse at the end of the book And knows what she looks like And and if you look at the winds of winter Preview chapters, you'll notice that the mouse does know that elaine is sanza Thanks to brian's information. So that's going to play out later down the road But it's very cool to see the mouse show up In brian's chapters pretty good character and you're like, oh, see george. He's just adding shit What he doesn't need but then he shows up in sanza's chapter Pretty cool Pretty damn cool Um Also, what do you guys think about peter bailish? I think he's fascinating, but god. He's creepy So creepy. I mean, we talked about it last chat. He's a super creep. But yeah, I mean, he's sorry I was looking at chat. What who are we talking about peter bailish? She's so good like Super creep super creep. He's so crazy. Give me a kiss that a father would be proud of and she's like And like kisses his mouth dude But see this is where a moment where like with george writing that I'm like Yeah, this is this is appropriate for this character. It doesn't feel like george being george being creepy Yeah, george doesn't actually george's in my opinion to the younger girls here Way more gracious than the show Because sanza gets character assassinated by ramsey in the show. Well, I mean Yeah, that was it sanza gets character assassinated by a conversation with the hound at winterfell Yeah, but yeah, you're right. I mean it's so much worse though It's just like that that scene is like the only scene that you need to know that These are a bunch of knuckleheads that don't understand anything Especially anything about women to have written that conversation between sanza and the hound is just the biggest Fuck you it's a half of humanity. And then in the books we get the complete opposite We get sanza considering the hounds goodbye and misremembering that history What do you make of that? I don't I don't know what to make of that Nothing If I had to draw anything honestly when I read that I thought I had misremembered. I was like, I didn't think he did but I guess I forgot That's the crazy though um Do you think subconsciously she has affection for the hound? Or georgia or martin forgot That is possible to write the thing I I don't think there's anything to it. I'll wear another Uh, there's a lot of people who feel like the hound and sanza will end up together I think it's interesting. I mean it'd be kind of weird, but also I would it's not interesting The fact that they would interact again sure the fact that they end up together Not good not cash money as as many people would say But we could jump the brian then who I think runs into the hound uh in her arc And I kind of already talked about her meeting the mad mouse shatter This is one of the things where the show did like this was a moment where like They wrote something new that was good, which was brian and the hound fighting over aria Like that scene is a very good scene It's one of the few times that they changed or added something where you were like That's actually I just watched and my wife just finished season four That fight It's so good. It's so violent and just like raw and emotional I mean the first four seasons of that show are perfect. Let's be honest folks There's just like you don't know how to feel about that. You don't know like either way Well, you feel for the hound And you end for brian and for aria and you're just like there's no winners here. This is this is horrible This is horrible. I don't want anything to happen here and podrick My boy is just sitting there I love podrick There's there's a really cool article I read on reddit way back in the day and it compared brian's arc and fees for crow's tube wizard of oz And I thought that it was so fascinating because they said septin maribald is a scarecrow Yeah, he's a scarecrow hyal hunt is undoubtedly the tin man because his body's covered in full armor And podrick pain is without a doubt the cowardly lyon And you think about and you go that kind of adds up and then sursee is the wicked witch So is she gonna melt And pour water on her she might melt from wildfire. Who knows The interesting I thought it was an interesting parallel that I I remember reading a long time ago And I said, you know, it kind of does I don't know if it's on purpose from girm But like you can draw that parallel as a reader and be like, oh, yeah I mean, I was able to make an argument that the secret history is secretly peter pan And I at no point thought the don tart actually meant to retell peter pan So like you can draw parallels like all the time because like, you know Tail is old as time like stories do repeat themselves osmosis definitely plays into a writer's process, I think One of the cool things about mad mouse that I liked and this is just a little uh, like writer thing But we meet mad mouse through brand's pov and I already mentioned that she he shows up In the elaine chapters, but the next chapter after we meet mad mouse is sam At the wall and a mouse comes out and crawls across his papers And it's just like a cool link between the chapters that I liked That doesn't really have any bigger implications, but i'm more george wrote a different semen sand or la sansa and then It went no Maybe possible Definitely possible Someone about seed But then forgot Oh and dairy says also hyal hunt doesn't have a heart It's true. He's very very cold Maybe there is more to that wizard of us connection then so the song of ice and fire is just a ripoff of wizard of us At least one part of it. Yeah, it's literally the same. Well people who haven't read memory sorrow and thorn will tell you It's a clone of memory sorrow and thorn, which they're dumb and brain dead, but it makes me so mad People who are detractors of girm That is like one of the number one things that they'll say it's just a clone of memory sorrow Well, this is how I felt when people said that empire of silence is a ripoff of name of the wind And i'm just like how I don't think anybody that has actually read both of them believes that Except that one person that like went through and like found weirdly nitpicky quotes that like have similar like sentence structures And you're like it happens. Like are you fucking kidding me? Yeah, that's also that's that's picking out Weirdly specific quotes to make your point while ignoring 99 of the book Yes, and it's also people taking maybe one aspect of something and drilling into it and thinking that people are Naturally nefarious and I don't think it's just ignoring the fact that like there is a shape to story telling That like humans are drawn to in order to tell a good story. It's like it's a It's a the four four song and the fact that all these songs are written with the same four chords It doesn't mean that they're ripping each other off. It's just because the human ear finds it compelling Stay with the dope song Same smith got sued for copying uh, well backed down by tom petty No, I guess all that Yep, but stay with me. It's a dope song Although let's agree though that like under pressure is the only song that we need to know about under pressure No ice involved Um So a lot of people give brian chapters a lot of grief and I want to just say for the record them The reason why I like them so much is because one They mirrored dunk and egg in a lot of ways with podrick and brian going through and uh, her shield is actually painted The same as the one that she saw when she was at home on the sapphire aisles And that's the one that sir dunk had left. Uh, there's a connection there. Grimm has confirmed that dunk is One of the elders in the family line of brian, but we get to see the everyday Yeah, we get to see the everyday folks of westeros. I just like that. I don't know. I'm a big fan I can definitely get why people don't though Yeah, like There is the crowd of people that wants the world to feel more alive and get to see like the peasants and like the Like common folk and then those people that are just like this has no impact on the story whatsoever Yeah, where I like seeing the common folk a lot of the times and also it doesn't not have any impact on this Or it like it doesn't it's not less impactful than almost anybody else Like everybody is like going along on their own little journey and like arguably All of them are in some way not impactful to like a larger story if you want to like it's very few That feel I mean what's going on on the wall. What does that have to do with anything? Well, you're you're right a lot of people and again I think it's because we don't have the payoff yet But a lot of people forget about how much stuff was given through the lens of catlin in a clash of kings And brian kind of does that here we get the backstory of dust and then brian Catlin. Oh my god, you're right I mean these are things like I think brian takes the place of that in a lot of ways because we get the background for dusk and dale Which is I mean like I as much as like okay, georgia martin subverts the whole like, you know Everything has a meaning everything the quest will must be like it subverts that sometimes things are meaningless but like jamie gives a valerian Steel sword to brian and calls it oath keeper and sends her on her way Like that's not nothing that's not going to amount to nothing So like if you're like brian's chapter is like does nothing happen. It doesn't matter and you're just like shut up Sit down and wait it will matter And it's half ice by the way. It's made from ice, which is it definitely plays into the ending of this book It's very poetic We get dusk and dale story where we hear about actually a lot of ways she kind of glorifies and it's interesting Because she wants to be a knight She actually glorifies uh baristan selmy because she tells about dusk and dale where baristan selmy saved the king She tells about the nine penny kings where at the end of it None other than baristan selmy ends up slaying the golden company leader and winning the war Which is the fifth and final black fire rebellion Which is massive and a lot of brian's chapters is subtle foreshadowing That a black fire is coming back which we will see young griff in the next book who I do believe is a black fire Uh, there's even an in that used to fly a black dragon that she goes to or passes by or something And now it's switched to the lannister guard or the baratheon or whatever, but it used to be a black fire in so you see This reminiscence of the rebellion back in the day And knowing that young griff is coming because we have the context of the next book It's it's a lot of setup. It's a lot of setup for that Um and good lore a lot of good lore from her So, I don't know. I really I'm a big fan of brian I understand people get frustrated by the repetitiveness of asking about a girl with auburn hair But I think it's to parallel herself with jamie and his obsession with moon boy so for sure I think a lot of people are just mad that their favorite characters aren't in this book either. Yeah, you're right Ultimately, that's what it comes down to for me. Yeah, I think you're right It's also just the brian isn't spicy like brian isn't like a shit talker. She's not out here She's working well Like no one cares that tirian's chapters No, necessarily move the plot forward because he's always like being a smart ass and you're like, oh, yeah I love tirian, but brian is like I have a mission And this is my mission and I will complete it because I sport oath My sword is literally called oath keeper and everyone's just like Boring brian is like the hawk eye of the group like no one actually cares, but she's She's cool Yeah, and she's she's important. I do think she's important She is I mean just the fact of like Like we talked about this before in terms of aria before she went to bravos About how often she just like has intersected with or come in contact with like other plot lines and other things going on And brian is like almost like the thing that knits together so many plot lines like she is the through line That's right And she even runs in when she's talking about that at war of the nine penny kings And they're talking about the riverlands having these big swamps that'll suck people up We hear about a she-wolf that is leaving maybe thousands of dire wolves and killing humans And we know it's nimeria, but of course we already knew that A previous book didn't we yes nimeria pulls out lady stoneheart from the river. Yeah And nimeria is going to be a huge deal and honestly, I loved hearing that story It made me happy You mean they're not just going to meet in the woods and have like a little goodbye chat and then never be seen again Some air buds seen no yeah brian is like the female version of ned stark Wow good point To a fault so everyone's a sexist for liking ned and not brian. I would say she is a much Uh less interesting ned stark for getting to brian also recognizes who again dreas. So yeah, I mean brian is connect You're might cut out. Yeah, you're might your mic's not talking I'm sorry Just brian is connected Well, you know, you'll hear what I was saying Jamie to catlin to aria to sansa to gendry. She's like She's the through line for so much stuff. Yeah, and she's also showing the attitude Um of a different section of westeros as jayme does the other side. I mean, it's just a beautiful parallel Well, she also works as like the thing that Puts the lie to jayme's reputation. Yeah, because she is living proof that jayme is an honorable man And they both defend each other uh at different points in the book But also no one's really gonna like take her word for it though because when everyone already has like catlin didn't She's a king slayer of who he is but also yeah, she's also a king slayer. So of course, they stick together Damn, no one's gonna. Yeah, damn it brian Wrong place at the wrong time. She does murder shag well, which is By the way when she murdered shag well I forgot about it. I was pretty high like that's sick A quick charade. That's what I was thinking What about biter eating her face off that I forgot about that shit It is broon orly Dad didn't happen into show And and you know, uh, she sees the hound as the grave digger. I believe grave digger is the hound I'm pretty sure that's like a yeah, come on all but certain. We all know that right um The bigger question is whether he'll like come back and have a role to play in the story. I don't know about that You think so? I don't think you bring him back to not use him again Yeah, I would agree and I wonder if you cross his pass with brian because brian and the hound have a lot of similarities to if you sit back and think about it like Honestly biter tearing her face off in the same book that she met the hound and didn't realize it Like she looks like the hound now in a lot of ways a little bit Also a lot of facial uh scarring in a song of ice and fire you have tirion marcella the hound brian mutilation Happen. Yeah facial mutilation is like pretty big john. He has the eagles scratches on his face and those screeches Let's talk about lady stoneheart though. Lady stoneheart the most facial mutilation horrifying. I mean, she's a literal corpse I mean talk about presence on the page. I mean legitimate when she puts her hand Here it's like, you know, it's on Honestly, I think that georda martin was thinking of those old anti tobacco ads where like someone puts a finger to the hole in their Wrestling he was supposed to be a burn victim in wrestling. This is like way off the topic. Yeah. He was kane and undertaker Yeah, and he had that voice box. They finally made him talk and he's with paul barry. He's like Undertaker and you're like but as a kid I was like holy shit You know, uh, that's what I think of whatever I hear this but it's very similar to the tobacco ads very similar Um, lady stoneheart has rob's crown mm-hmm Which we will talk about when we talk about jamie on how they got that crown um, but Brienne shouts a word at the end of the book and we don't know what it is This is brian shouted a word and that's kind of the end. What do you think she shouted? I don't know stop Uh, what her final chapter her final chapter is said that she shouted a word and then like such and such happened and it goes black But I don't heart says kill jamie or die or whatever. Yeah, basically go retrieve me jamie or You know or or you're dead and she's like I won't he's changed and um The grief is palpable pretty rough man Pretty rough. Um, but she has something and I want to know what it is You have to be grieving to literally come back from dying She didn't come back on her own Oh, I know she had help also. I just noticed that alex has an exclamation park Yeah, like what's so important about you that you get an exclamation point alex exactly That's what it very much reminds me of uh, the snl sketch when like during the like campaigns when like jeb bushes like, uh campaign thing was like jeb You're like like that would make it more exciting. It's like putting an exclamation point after broccoli Very interesting. She said I think it's aria Why would she yell aria though? So as they're hefted upward thrashing and dying brand screams out a word Aria well, she knows that aria has been sent to winterfell even though it's jane pool Mm-hmm. So maybe and she doesn't know that it's jane pool. So Maybe she thinks I mean, it would have to be Martin have said that she's that that she screamed a name Well, I would think so and I would think that she would have to say when it cuts Children to like spark that of like hey Like yeah, I think I think it could be aria. I think it could be aria The thing that really messes with jamie and stone hearts mine is ruse bolt and saying jamie lenders the senses regards Yeah, jamie is it's kind of vilified Yeah, because of the messaging through the room right under the bus bastards Although I don't think that I I mean that didn't help but I don't think that catlin would necessarily think favorably of jane without that I mean, catlin's ready to kill brianne. He tried to jamie tried to kill Little little brain. Oh There's no brianne knows aria is alive and was with the hound Yeah, but she doesn't have any clue of where aria is. So like what like she's still failing All good Kind of points as she goes and brings back jaymo, which she refused to Interesting Um, I know that you're gonna be excited about this lana, but the last character we have is jamie And there's a lot to talk about with jamie like a lot Not man Um the best quote in this book also alex left again. I know other things and not jamie because alex is gone Damn it alex Damn it. Uh, actually liana. I will ask you this because I was curious Uh, I I've been reading a couple old blog posts from people That I know and a lot of people give george like a lot of shit for his representation of women in the story How do you feel about representation of women in a song by some fire? I mean, I don't think it's perfect Although I can't really point to any book that is perfect And like as we talked about before with sursy the fact that like If the only perspective you had on a powerful woman was sursy, then I'd be like Fuck you like the only powerful woman is hysterical and crazy, but she's not like I think he I mean, yeah, there's weird sexy times. There's weird milky breasts. Like there's there's stuff but like for the most part Like I would say for him the same that I say for joe abacromby that he writes people Like he writes people who do people-y things that are messy and complicated and sometimes weird and gross and And it's not good and it's not bad and like for that reason like I have very I can't really find fault with it because like For anything that I would Criticize about a depiction of a woman. He's done the same with a man He's done the same like across the board. So like I don't it's usually a problem If it feels like it's selective, you know, we're like, oh, all the dudes have all the power Like all the dudes have all the clever lines or all the dudes are the like it's not like that like For every like crazy woman, there's a crazy guy and for every powerful guy There's a powerful woman and it's it's just it's all just humanity being messy So like individual scenes like we isolated in the beginning of this live or you're like sir sir Was this necessary? But like that's not even like sexism so much as it's just like you're old and alone and this makes me sad Yeah, I think that uh, I got a bounce. Um, so sorry to to be a bum, but I gotta leave Told I love you guys. Bye. Love you. Bye Well now that he's gone. It's genuinely fridgeed this time. He's fridgeed dead d. E. D. Um, well, I just wanted to ask that because Um, I don't feel like he has a horrible, um, representation of what I don't think that this world is kind to women Um, and a lot of people it's not kind to many either Yeah, well a lot of people say there's 117 references to uh, rape against women in this book and That that must be true because they have a number. I'm just assuming that they're correct I don't think a book saying that that's happened to women is sexist Yeah, I mean like no, that's how I feel but I feel weird saying that as a man Well, I just so like I don't know like the idea that representing sexual assault at all is in some way inherently bad I just I don't even under I can't begin to understand that logic because like in order to talk about the trauma that women have suffered and why It continues to be relevant that women are oppressed like you can't say women are oppressed But don't dare talk about the ways in which that they are violated like but but what like it's Yeah, we're pointing out the way that they're hurt like that's In a matter of factly statement of history of like well, this person ruse bolton took, you know Lord's rights and and rape as well. It's like What do you think your medieval history classes like now? One thing I will say is I think that there was less sexual abuse than we think in the middle Middle-eval times, but it wasn't non-existent. It was like it happened. It's all I mean all the middle ages were just like Fucking weird Yeah, they're not very good It's I mean, but also like it's really bizarre like I took a medieval european history class in college And like we talked a lot about like Like the church which like at the it's you didn't have to specify cath like because it's you know, everybody was um, but like the kind of stuff that like nuns would get up to that was like I don't know like it's truth is always stranger than fiction like it was weird and I don't like gloss over that or to like talk about things as if like that's inherently like Sexist as opposed to like humans being I don't I think the difference to me is usually that like It's the same as for violence that like there's a difference between an author that's like Revealing in it and really like indulging in just like Tons of unnecessary like bloody gore versus like here's a violent scene a violent thing happened And here is what happened and I'm not going to not tell you that it was violent And this is what happened versus wallowing and like I said the same for Abercrombie. It's grim dark But it doesn't just like Wallow in the gore and let me just disgust you with just pages and pages of blood like it's not like that He tells you when it's violent and he doesn't shy away, but it's you know, that's not gratuitous Yeah, he also doesn't glorify this as Yeah, so like there's sexual assault and things like that in song of ice and fire But it doesn't really wallow or glorify or indulge in or You know, it's in there You can't say it's not in there, but more more than More often than not it's more just saying It's informing you of the fact that this thing has happened or that this thing is happening But it's it's like it's like a rich or what's his name attenborough The like british, uh, you know nature documentary like he's like and this is what's going on so that you're aware Like it's not like reveling in it. Yeah, and I think people Mistake that for wanting it to just be a spectacle or something and I and I generally disagree with that And on top of that, I think that george also shows that a lot of the um More foul acts that happen in the story results in bad things happening if there's consequences for that like roose bolton Uh, you know ramsey is the result of rape and ramsey is horrendous And it does he not embody the evil of that act You know, although arguably him bodies like the ruthlessness already present in the blood from his daddy Yeah, certainly. Yeah, the the worst parts of his father. He is worse than his father, but he is certainly his sons Uh, I'm sorry his father's son um So yeah, I was just curious what you thought of that because uh, I read something this week It's from someone I really enjoy Uh, and they were very critical of george. Um, and I felt like discounted his work largely because of that and it kind of Bothered me a little bit, but yeah, well like uh, this uh, Kappa micah saying that like the fact that he uses that kind of language I feel like Well, if you take anything out of context But like a character driven writer is going to write in the voice of the character And so like as long as it's clear to the reader That this is in world in universe what this character would think and say It's just again not to like always bring up first law, but like when people are when uh, I think it's Readers are more perceptive than authors give them credit for which is what we talked about earlier But like you can pick up on when an author is condoning something and when an author is depicting something And I think george arborn is depicting things. He's not condoning them. Yeah, I would agree and I think it's it's a little bit more Hands off in the approach, but if you read a little bit deeper generally it ends up with having some sort of consequence where But I don't I don't even buy into the idea that like unless you depict consequences You're condoning it like he does he just writes a world in which like The truth is this kind of stuff happens And like if you were to write a world like this that is very sort of quasi medieval europe And not have anything like that ever happened. It would feel like a very disnified Oddly cleaned up like it's it's the same thing as we talked about just like sex without rape Is that like if you go so far out of your way to not have that in there It's it's like conspicuous by its absence that like the truth is like in war and in you know times of like great strife like That's just what happens and like if you go out of your way to not have that it's noticeable Yeah, and we get the opposite of that uh in essos and in dorne in a lot of ways um It's all good alexa love you hope your kids are okay, man um But the good news is is that we could talk about jamie now That's that's this is our I saved it for last So I I tried to like avoid jamie because he's the grand finale. He's the best. He's the best part of this book He's the best part of the books Oh, damn you think do you think my favorite character? Yeah, it's crazy because we don't really get his uh p o v till three books in Yeah, he's always interesting He had more feeling in his missing hand than in his remaining body What a what a line it's whenever he's sitting there looking at taiwan's dead body And he's thinking about how much it doesn't bother him. It's a pretty quotable quote It's I mean man like that is uh But again, I feel like well, we talked earlier about you know, like when he picks his perspectives Who he picks his perspectives and george r martin knew not to show us jamie until he got interesting Because jamie for the first two books is happy to do whatever sursee and taiwan want And it's when he starts to have to think for himself that we get to see him Yeah, he's put in a sympathetic position of being a prisoner not even just sympathetic But again like divorced from someone following someone else's decision-making. Yeah, because when he's fighting rob If that's not because he decided that He's just like good being the good military son doing the thing Maybe the soldier boy doing the thing. So like now that he's been captured. This is like he's off script now There is no playbook for this. So now he's interesting because You don't have anybody that told you what to do. You have to figure this out for yourself, buddy. So I would say that also one of the more yeah, I saw that One more of the um interesting things is that jamie becomes Pretty much. I mean he does get it a little bit before the brian interactions But brian almost creates his pov in a lot of ways It's whenever he starts to have to interact brian that that we get him Obviously a little bit before whatever. He's a prisoner talking to catlin, but without brian There is no redemption for jamie brian is in a lot of ways a catalyst for jamie's change And they're so coupled in the story that where we will never be able to get away from that And that's why I drew a lot of parallels from them when reading through it this time I really wanted to focus on that I saw through their health Yeah, and that's one thing we have to remember like he did attempt to murder a child And I know that people can change and we do start seeing him try to redeem himself But like it's core like he's still kind of a rough guy I don't think any was making an argument for like jamie is only misunderstood. He's actually so good and kind I don't think that's it. It's just that like it's easy to write him off and Nothing's ever that simple. I mean if you can find redemption in the hound You can certainly find it in jamie. Yeah stana says, you know, not all bad takes away the good not all the good takes away the bad I mean, that's actually a really good way. Well on it. Okay. I never thought of it this way But like arguably davos and jamie have a parallel like, you know arc because they're like they did bad things and they paid the price in flesh So this the scales are balanced. We're clear now Damn That's a good point. You know, we just saw jamie's Transgressions we didn't get to see davos's Which is why jamie's a better character in my opinion But also, I mean davos's transgressions weren't as great as jamie's so davos lost fingers jamie lost a hand Did you see alexa I don't get to chat jamie and that's depressing, but his arc is brilliant carries his book single Handedly fantastic very funny alex. You're better in chat than you are in voice, man That was a backhand full of knuckles Ah Tyrion's words haunt him and this is uh, again This is one of the places that the show and the books digress so much and I don't know if you've noticed Oh, but yeah, this is what I was talking about earlier too about him looking at the king's guard book It's I just I love that part thinking about how his pages were his own to fill in Yeah, he's taking agency for the first time But it's also I mean it's everything to do with him and the king's guard book Like both him looking at his own blank page and filling it himself and the whole like He'll have to learn how to fill it physically also But also him looking at all the other pages and the conversation that he has with laurus about what's in the book In the king's guard book and about like do you even know your history about once again, george r barton is like Do you know your history young man? but like It's that's good shit jamie finally put his thinking cap on better late than never And is haunted by his His sister and his brother and his brother telling him the truths And he doesn't want to believe it because that means cersei's a liar and then slowly He has to come to the conclusion that cersei did lie to him Um, also we get to mention real quick of christin cole That character is very important and will be in house of the dragon christin cole has a major role to play And christin cole is in some ways could end up being jamie a parallel for jamie Trying to look at my notes here jamie struggles handling and viewing the world now that men he doesn't respect can kill him Uh, and his humbling requires him to have a brand new world view About heroes feels like it could easily be a first love book. Yeah, you're right That's high praise indeed It is interesting to see like the biggest giga chat in westeros like become one-handed right and and how he views like these peasants that are like Well, like I don't think it's any accident that I mean I don't know where am I going with so like first law obviously love it That doesn't need to be explained But like the way that my favorite character is glock da and glock da is equal parts jamie and terryan And like those are kind of the best characters in songwise and fire like Yeah, you know ever crumby like he's one of us He's our people And and there's something about someone losing a piece of themselves literally and figuratively because he lost Cersei and like just purely all the word play that becomes possible Like just jamie being like a hand without a hand Ah, no, fuck you and also jamie's so charming and witty when it comes to his hand, you know I mean he has so many one-liners which again like jamie's had a lifetime of like Covering wit to hide real at least literally like deadpool doesn't deadpool have a line about like, you know, it jokes to hide real pain Yeah Because we see his internal dialogue and then we see what he comes back with Um, also lancel's the worst What an idiot and and and dary actually brought stuff to my discord She said, you know lancel was young and kind of groomed by cersei. So in a way lancel is sympathetic But why did he have to tell the high sept? like He ruined it Because you know, he almost died and he you know had a spiritual awakening Yeah, now he's taken up arms and uh marching into king's landing for the high sept and and it's going to be a mess an absolute mess Ellen pain. Yeah, ellen pain being jamie's training partner and jamie divulging all this stuff to ellen pain is pretty wild, isn't it? Although i mean like jamie being like man I should be training with the guy that can't talk about this Yeah, I mean, yeah He like really opens up like a lot of his inner monologue actually comes out to ellen pain as much as we talked about like You know the horror and and I didn't put I didn't mean to be like glib or like to mock the idea of horror but like The idea of horror in these books the I the parts that I often find the most chilling are not really like the horror parts Like that part where he is like there's this like weird clacking sound coming from ellen pain and he realizes that he's laughing Like that oh, that's like so much more just like unsettling a line Then you know like lady stone heart and her like nag and whatever like yeah, that's gross But like this that moment with ellen pain like how Chilling because you can't even talk to the he's already kind of dehumanized by the fact that you can't like talk to him You don't know what he's thinking can't explain that and this like you don't even realize that he's laughing It's just this like inhuman noise and then it's mockery the clocking Yeah, that's actually yeah, I remember uh kind of reacting to that and not really uh equating it to to being horror But you're right. It's like the maniacal laugh And it's not I mean the just the fact that like it would just the difference between jamie being like And then like you know the fact that like this guy that can't speak but him being like he was like Oh, he's laughing at me. But no, he doesn't even realize that he's laughing at him He's like what is that noise and it's like he's laughing question mark Because like just like then I'm trying to picture that guy like what does that sound like What does he look like when he's making a noise that jamie can't readily identify as laughter like I don't like it Ellen Payne in general is disturbing. I I agree from the Sansa point of view that Ellen Payne is like this haunting That just kind of leers in the background constantly in a song of ice and fire It's terrifying and I wonder if Ellen Payne can write like do you think like maybe Ellen Payne will write Like down what jamie's told him or is it just literally he's just a box and it's just going to go into him forever And we'll never see anything come of it I mean, I guess it's hard to believe that George R Martin would write a situation where a character is so confident about The fact that they can divulge their secrets to somebody and that not coming to bite them in the ass Yeah, it's kind of how I feel as well Like I feel like Ellen Payne has a little bit more of a part to play in the story and like he's been brought up multiple times Also, Ellen Payne doesn't necessarily have to tell anybody what he knows. He can act on what he knows There's a difference. Damn you right. It's actually a good point Like I mean, Ellen Payne doesn't have to tell anyone that jamie's weak But he knows that jamie's weak So if there became a time when someone needed to take jamie out Ellen Payne can do it Yeah, he doesn't have to tell anybody And I imagine he has no love loss for any of the rulers that have put him in a position that he's in if he has tongue cut out by aries. So Um, although he might respect jamie's effect that he killed That's true. That's that's actually a good point. Yeah. I mean fair enough You would hate to gather cut out your tongue. I know I would I mean I'd be Fucking terrible Robert will you put the quote in jamie lannister says you clearly have no intention of saving your men's lives? Why did you come treat with me brennan tully says? Sieges are dull and I wanted to see you in person and get that measure of you jamie lannister Well, now you have brennan tully responds with a now. I have i'm disappointed Windmill dunk. I love it brennan brennan blackfish is a huge player in the looks Clearly goes missing During during this entire exchange Whenever jamie comes back to the castle brennan is it's gone. We don't know where he is I think that he is with the cragman with howlin reed it would be my guess Probably linking it with lady stoneheart at some point, but brennan blackfish is a major player And he's one that jamie seems to have um, I wouldn't say fear but respect for in the book Well, I mean I even though like the blackfish is glib like it doesn't It does have the kind of tone of like to You know equal players on the chess board taking taking each other's measure, you know like You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely Um, I think the tellies are are pretty interesting. Uh, brennan is going to be huge and wins as dairy. I agree And edmere is a big piece of this book. He surrenders and this is like my fate This is the biggest detail. I did not pick up on this book The first couple times I've read it and it's the fact that edmere surrenders river run to jamie And jamie says I whenever he's deciding and he says i'm gonna leave this singer tom here for you And jamie or i'm sorry edmere is like, please don't leave him anyone but him and on the surface level we can remember That tom is the one who wrote the floppy fish or something song about edmere because edmere couldn't rise to the occasion with a prostitute And then tom's a seven streams fulfills that duty instead said he writes a ballad about Edmere and it mocks him and edmere hates singers catlin told jay Have you read name of the wind yet? I have not I just can't wait for how much you'll laugh at the songs I'm uh, I'm probably reading it in the fall is my guess I'll read it with you again because uh, you know cloth to get back somebody writes a song called jackass jackass Well, it's very similar to this then because it's definitely tom seven seven streams mocking edmere So on the surface level we can say we can go. Oh, look how clever we are. We remember that catlin said that in a past book Folks, I never realized this Tom seven strings or seven streams. I'm sorry Didn't just write a mocking ballad about edmere He is a spy for the brotherhood without banners in river run the entire time and we know I never realized it He is the one that is singing the song at the end of the storm of swords He's the one that's there for the hanging of the phrase He is inside and he talks to jamie and I've never pieced this together and jamie says how long will you stay and he says Oh until winter comes Like oh my god and we get all this hints of uh uniforms are going missings There's fires on the uh hill sides that they're seeing and I think it's like northern rebels communicating with each other And there's a wedding coming between I believe it's like brennan lannister and some fray girl I think and this is my postulation that there is a red wedding 2.0 about to happen And I think that uh tom seven streams is the spy inside of river run that will let the gates open The missing uniforms will come into fruition. It'll be all the northern rebels with lady stoneheart In the band brotherhood without banners and it's insane if you think about how subtle all these things are Also, that's how a lady star heart gets uh robs crown Because uh rhyman, what's his name? I can't remember rhyman leaves to go to the twins. He's murdered They believe that it's a rival fray faction. But in fact Tom was there when jamie said the plans. So tom tipped off lady stoneheart. She killed rhyman got the crown It's crazy There you go. You've solved it I mean, that's wild though. I never picked up on that like that's so I mean I can't I didn't No, I didn't either But what dairy says here about illan like we were just talking about what he knows about jamie But jamie can't be the only one that trusted a tongueless man with secrets What else does illan know? Oh, well, he knows aries secrets because that's why aries took his time. He said, you know too Right, but since then like who I mean a lot of people would make jamies would decide the same thing jamie did Oh, this guy's tongueless. I could tell him stuff. What he might have the best stories in westeros Who has a better story than illan the tongueless? Osos said holy shit jimmy I never saw that thing I'm glad other people didn't see this but like It's laid out very clear here if you go back and read it That tom seven strings is just and jamie is so obsessed with moon boy that he doesn't see it Just like brian doesn't see the hound It's big brotherhood without banners had a spy in river on the whole time. That's how brennan blackfish got out That's why edmure has a shitty and grin on his face and jane Not jane pool but jane westerling rob's bride who is distraught about his death Is supposed to be moved to casterly rock with edmure. You know, that's not going to happen. They're going to pick him off It's crazy What a big moment. What a big moment Can you tell me excited about no one probably knows what podrick did to it this way? You never know Also, I do love podrick just like shout out to podrick. Oh pod in every brian chapter where he is like, you know What is he called brian is like, you know Sir malady. He doesn't know what to call her. He's so awkward. He's so good. It's so cute Oh man Good yeah, definitely check out tom seven streams. Uh Yeah, top mindblown I'm glad I'm glad that I'm not the only one because I thought did everyone else know this and and I caught it In the text this time and I googled it and I there's there's theories online But they're very few and far between like not a ton of people have talked about this But it is certainly everyone's too busy trying to find secret targaryens You know what though? You're right. I actually think about that a lot I'm like, how many things are actually in the text that we don't look at because we're constantly thinking about who's Mysterious that's what I always think about like when it comes to theories about secret targaryens and things just like that It's same with like star wars like always everyone's secretly like a skywalker or secretly like whatever except they do do that Yeah, which is what makes it dumb But like it's stuff like that we're like those are the theories that like people Think are epic and want to like theorize But usually the coolest stuff is the stuff that flies into the radar that you didn't know to look for Yeah, and so like you can sit here like worrying about like what you think are big deals Meanwhile, all the cool stuff you're not going to see coming because it's little stuff that like it wasn't connected to like the big names It wasn't secretly a targaryen It was something subtler a littler that you didn't see And and that's why when people tell me that a feast for crows and a dancer's dragon's meander and it's worthless And there's nothing happening. Come on guys People say that about the blade itself too and that and now you go back and look and you see like Logan meeting the guy at uh at uh What's his name's library jimmy and our secret tarks clearly have a target interest I mean way to out us jeez yeah right here see But not so secretly But you know even and you weren't right though in the blade itself people say oh It's no meandering and stuff But there's a callback and wisdom of crowds to blade itself. Uh, like there's so much there I was just like talking about this because you know We're doing a read along a first law and like the thing is like when you are the author and you know where this is going And you know how many like seeds you're planting and how much foreshadowing you're planting it's hard to like read it as like somebody who doesn't know and to realize how Like just kind of befuddled your reader might be because they're like I don't know to look for this I don't have no idea what you're doing. You know where it's going So you're like this is crammed full of just like all of these clues and all of these hints Look at all these goodies. You have no idea that like a first time reader is like, huh? When you go back to read it, you're like, holy shit There's so much in here And you know what we've done this with the storm of swords now back to game of thrones and clash of kings And I believe that if we ever and when or when we do get winds of winter a lot of stuff will fall into place And we'll go holy shit feast was a tremendous And this is where also like I mean as much of like low key and asshole Patrick Roth this is like It's true that like when he said when people are waiting for the next book And he just tells people to reread the books that exist and you're like, okay but like Yeah When he says like, you know, you there are things in name of the wind that you can't understand That you won't know to pick up on unless you've read wise men's fear And there are things in wise men's fear that you don't know and you can't understand And you won't be able to pick up on until doors of stone And there are things in name of the wind that you won't know how to pick up on and you won't know to look for until doors of stone So like he's like they're designed to be reread and you're like, I mean as much as like a Like attitude that is like that's the that's what we love about books like this that they are designed to be reread We're like and That's the thing about it is that like any book that can only be understood on a reread I'm just like fuck you but a book that gets better every time you reread it. No, that's a keeper Yeah, and I agree and it's one of the things about these There's a lot of modern fantasy that is intricately plotted and people go look at the plot of this This is insane. But once the plot's like solved There's not a lot there after like you can maybe one time you can go back and go look at all these things But uh and I've not read name of the wind, but I assume it's very much like a song of ice and fire where like Except there's only one perspective, but yeah Right, right. That definitely plays a role in it. But like with a song of ice and fire There's things I mean this is I don't know my fifth or sixth time reading this book and I found a new thread I mean that is phenomenal. I guess you could take a break from perpetual rereading to read name of the wind Hey, I don't want to hear it from the first law Marathoner over here. Okay Guilty as charged I think that this this book is a great book that gets a bad rap for its placement in the series And I desperately think that it needs uh the winds of winter and a dream of spring if not just one of them Um, I'm so glad that you guys enjoyed it so much this time around because I actually changed my rating from a four star Well, I mean a lot of things are also like expectation versus payoff, you know, like because the first time I went into it I was riding the high of storm. So like it couldn't It couldn't do otherwise than disappoint But because I went into it it seemed like when I reread the heroes the first time I read the heroes, I was like Like with hostess, you know, like where's the cream filling like where's the plot? So like I was like, huh And so like going into like realizing that that's not the project of that book and realizing that's not even what we're here Like it's not that he like tried and failed That wasn't a thing we were trying to do here So like I could just enjoy it on its own terms and I actually like kind of love the fuck out of the heroes The second time So the same with these for crows like after riding the high of storm of swords the first time I was disappointed but this time remembering it as like The weak one the horrible one the slog Going into it now. I was just like set up to love it because I was like what slog this is fantastic Yeah, it's so and his writing improves and also I think it's weird and you can actually tell from our conversation tonight This is where the show in the books diverge so much and then a dance it gets even more drastic, but Which probably also cemented in some way my opinion because I read it before the show I mean I read all of the books after seeing the first season just like you did so like the show for the beginning For the most part kind of just like reaffirmed and cemented my experience of the books while it was on book And then like around fees for crows is when it started the show started being shit And so that part I can't help but think that part of my the reason I recall fees for crows so poorly And rethink of it so poorly is because the show was weak by that point. So it just like Stead into my already like existing disappointment with fees for crows and confirmed my belief that it was shit Yeah Yeah, I I think that you're right. I think a lot of people equate dorne to bad when dorne is fascinating and there's It's not even just the martels like dark star is fascinating in itself and starfall and the danes I mean the danes are probably the biggest mystery in the books right now Um, I like what omar said. He said, uh, did you guys know about the lord of the crossing game? The two walters played in front of brand in clash of kings and how walters said may haps in storm when promising cat and rob red and salt Hinting at his betrayal. Yes. I and I've seen people point this out before But the little walters and how Little bastards they are at winterfell is actually very telling of how a walter will then react to the starks later And it's those little subtle things that I find to be so Enduring that's why I love the series so much So so much do you jimmy? Do you like this here? I like it just a little bit just a just a wee bit But anyway back to jamie Yeah, I mean we were in theory talking about I mean we kind of we've I think we've covered most of what jamie was about But the biggest thing is seeing How split him and cersei have become uh and how he is growing and she is degrading And I wonder what it will be like when we reunite. I feel like You know, so you kind of like they were a package deal right for so long and seeing them split apart how like it Now he flourishes and she fails it feels like, you know, he was like sort of like I don't know the strength of that union and that like she's spiraling without him Meanwhile, he's like finally out from under her shadow and blossoming in his own right, you know, jamie the beautiful flower Yeah, and he is and he's kind of making his own reputation I imagine a lot of people are looking him in the way he's handling the siege and But also cares less because I feel like it really got his goat that you know this whole like I mean you can tell from the way that he talks to brian That about how much it bothers him and gets under his skin about how people call him king slayer and he's like You hypocrites all of you like it really irritates him and I feel like now that he has no hand and is already like You know, like he's been brought low He's like he's gone the glock to way of just being like, you know what like what reputation like Now I'm just like I'm just gonna do my thing and just be my own person and like I'm not gonna Like he was partway there with like his flippant Like it was like a I don't know not stages of grief but stages of like giving zero fucks The like he went from like it was like a rebellious like well, fuck you quietly for calling me king slayer And now he's just like I literally give zero fucks about this Well, you all you have to view the world in the different aspect when your tools change and his tools have now went from being The best swordsman in westeros minus baristan sell me to now having to flex the The abilities that I think that his father passed on to him I can kind of relate to that because I can tell you that since I stopped Wrestling and I came down from that high I had to really You start thinking about how you treated people When you were on top, right? You thought you were on top of the world And then that you get humbled pretty quickly and realize that you're mortal It changes the way you think about how you're interacting with people It also changes the way that you see yourself moving forward in life I could never see myself being an old person whenever I was uh at the top of my per se game, I guess and now I can and I think it's because I see myself accepting the fact that It might not end well for me It might not end with me being the hero and I think jamie Has went through an arc like that. So I pull a lot of inspiration Jamie is also like taking a page out of tirian's book Which like I genuinely can't remember if this is a line from the show or from the book or both when Tyrion tells john like being a bastard that like you should wear it like armor because I thought so but I was I was like Oh, I don't want to like show my ass and like that was in a show Uh, I feel like that's where jamie's at now because like no one like everyone knows he's missing a hand like that's like People can talk shit about you about that, but he's gonna wear like armor Yeah, that's a good point and we'll dive into this more in dance But I mean jamie and tirian's arcs are very different, you know, we went from which is why I feel like if in the end He kills Cersei over tirian Yes, I think that I would prefer jamie to do so. Um, I also wonder if Tyrion's drag and we'll talk about but I think tirian is is the he's becoming vengeful and he's a villain and He's always had these dragon dreams of burning His family and I wonder if he'll burn castley rock because I think young griff will take In fairness if I had a family like that, I dream about burning them too I'd probably ride a dragon and burn burn it down. You know, you don't even need to drag on a match We'll do yeah wildfire. It's in the dragon pit. He knows where it's at He does know where it's at. That's actually pretty big information But I think that uh jamie and tirian are fascinating to look at in parallel to one another because of the trajectory of jamie coming from really being a bottom veeter Coming up and tirian dissenting into madness from committing an atrocity against his father no matter how armed it was It's amazing to look at you were right when you said this earlier when we were talking about like representation of women in the series I like being right Well, you're you're you are right though. He writes he writes humans He writes humans that don't seem to learn from the past Or or they do like people have an infinite capacity to surprise and dismay you So unfortunately And like the okay, so this you made me think of it because you mentioned fire and just like terry burning stuff But this has nothing to do with tirian or jamie But I was thinking about it and then got distracted when we were talking about catlin and like the what she how she represents a convergence of like the old gods and Azor or relore because like she comes from the from winterfell and she's like connected to like the tree You know gods and the old gods she herself holds the seven but she's been brought back by relore So like she's a little trifecta right there Wow you're right And how many times did we see her praying to the seven for net and for rob But she also was like very like keenly aware of how important the like old gods were to net and she never disparaged that She never like looked down on it No, she didn't like going to the where was she didn't like going to the heart tree because like she respected it I was gonna say like that way. It wasn't silly to her. It was like it was like She like recognized the power there and it made her uncomfortable man. You you really did Fuck you hit on a good point though. The only one that ever answered a prayer for her was relore Although I mean her daughters and her and bran are alive like she just doesn't realize it Yeah, but I mean, I don't know. I just think of many times yet We see and then well if you look at that so like she herself So she's right now she if based on what I just said arguably Represents the seven the old, you know tree gods and relore. Her daughter is with the faceless men in bravos like And then you have like her children who are all wargs Like there's just like a lot going on there Yeah damn That I mean that is one of the coolest uh parallel like I've never heard that that's that's the first time I've heard that and I've listened to maybe thousands of hours Of content, uh, you should tell you that humans have the capacity to infinitely surprise It all comes full circle I think I think we've covered fees for crows. I think uh, I think so. I'll be honest I actually think this is our best discussion so far. I really enjoyed this and I won't tell alex But and I wish that he would have been here for the ending because he was adding great insight and I do think that this is probably proof that this is the most thematically sound book of all of them We we are talking about I almost feel like You know, I mean storm is like, you know, wow, but I almost feel like because faced is Not doing all of the big stuff that storm is it has It has time to just like breathe and play and explore and yeah So like because it's not delivering those hi-hi's that Hi-hi's are cool, but hi-hi's are actually only work if you've spent a lot of time marinating Yeah, and it's a it's the beginning of a new arc and I explained this to alan because alan Actually, the way me and alan kind of started talking is that he uh crapped on the last two books in my chat during chat With nuts and I said i'll bring you on and argue with you And I brought him on and we argued and at the end he goes man, you know what I might reread those That's a good point Which is awesome for me But I explained to him in this way. I said man, it's the beginning of a new arc You cannot go at 100 miles an hour the entire time. You will lose your audience. You have to reset Well, and that's like one of the major mistakes that like so much media makes like star wars and marvel and other stuff probably Where the thing is like and I'm actually I've complained about this a lot because I don't read very much romance I don't really like it but like there's so many romances that like, uh Like I made this comparison with one that like I really went for and really went after we're like every page Basically has this like character that's told to you over and over is this like broody person that never shares his feelings And so in theory, right? That's why it means something when like a broody silent type actually bothers to tell you that like they love you But if they do it on every page Like that really ceases to have an effect And like you're chasing that high but that high only works because it happened on one page in a 500 page book And if you you're like, oh, but what if I did it on every page? Well, you can't I'm sorry That's just you can't because then it doesn't work anymore because it only worked because you had to wait 400 pages for this guy to finally crack and say I love you And so like that's the mistake that it makes and the same thing with action The same thing with politics the same thing with epic world building and magic and sorcery Like if you if you think an epic fight and epic magic and epic reveal on every page is going to be satisfying It's not it's because we had to wait It's because you put all of these pieces together and we've been waiting for it and waiting for it And we've been seeing it come together and we've been watching the pieces Possibly forming this whole and then it finally happens. Yeah, and that's what makes it satisfying Well, it shows us the stakes rather than telling us their stakes And I think that's the problem with a lot of modern fantasy is that George clearly changed the entire genre whether people like it or not and People started killing characters that were important. They started doing these things and I'll be honest There's very few books that have ever captured that same feeling that storm of swords have when he killed off half of his cast Uh, what's the difference between the early in the show and late in the show? Yes That like we the way that we prepared for like, you know The battle of the black water The way that that that didn't like wasn't like one episode in many that all had epic battles The the fact that there's so much prepping for that when it finally happens. You're like It's like that gift or like from the office when Michael is like, oh god, it's finally happening. Oh, no, it's happening. It's happening Without the anticipation anticipation is a necessary ingredient And if you have not spent time on the anticipation Then there is no payoff and some of the uh subversion that george uses that everyone likes to go on and not about that He's just a verting trope. So it won't laugh stupid people. Um, I see authors say that and I'm like, how dumb are you? But anyways, uh, it makes me really upset as you can tell But uh, one of the biggest subversions in those big stakes payoffs things like black water is the hound running away from the battle and uh in every other book the hound would have You know if if people trying to mimic her they had a hound character The hound would go in and slay all these people and then he cut down with arrows And it'd be this big tragic loss but george says Ah, you know what I think I'm gonna make the hound a coward because he's afraid of fire and black water Is going to have wildfire so that would make sense for him to then show yellow belly and run away Okay, yeah, we're going to subvert the big bad astro and in like it's like man Look at all those pieces that played together with the history of the character and it all stays consistent These are the things that authors are not willing to do right now And it's not even necessarily their fault because I think publishers have put their finger on the wrong thing about things that make This popular it's the payoff. It's the consistency Well, it's even I mean I even though like I included marvel in my list of things that like get this wrong It's also the difference between dc and marvel like in the films because like marvel spent a lot of time Having individual movies having setting up these individual heroes in their own little arcs and how and planting little seeds of like the overarching Story that would eventually unify them so that when we finally got to avengers it was like Oh, shit. They're coming together versus dc That was like, what if we just start right there because that's the one everyone liked and you're like But we liked it because we spent all of this time Building to that and you can't skip to that Yeah, and if you skip or even if you miss one beat it can change the entire tone or impact of a scene and uh But also like the reason it's epic to finally see You know Thor meet iron man is because you watched like a bunch of movies with iron man And you saw a movie with Thor, you know their history their own thing And like you saw pieces of like things that might connect them in their own movies in captain america and something that fit in his 1940s timeline that kind of ties into this and they're like They're meeting and like I already cared about them individually You they didn't have to be together for me to care about them But now that they're together like oh, that's that's so epic versus like Who are these characters that i'm meeting for the very first time and you think it's epic that they're meeting But like who are they i've been told that they were important I was told rather than shown Uh gurm's just an excellent storyteller at the end of the day. He doesn't always hit everything, but for me Um, I was talking about this with joanna the other day. It's like He is so above average at every aspect of storytelling and writing that it's like the it's just the perfect storm Uh I can think of people have better characters. I can think people have a better plot I can think people have better world building, but like when you put it all together There's very few people to put it all together like this very few I literally almost said the exact same thing about joe abacrombie in my like old old video about like Why I love joe abacrombie so much when I was like He does characters well, but you know, I've seen other people do characters Well, he does plot well, but I've seen other people do plot well He does action well, but I've seen other people do action well, but I was like when you put it together It's a secret sauce. It's a secret sauce Yeah Well, it's also and like as we talked about before like the fact that it's not written so up its own ass that only like devoted Fans who are willing to wade through the owner is detail will love it And it's not written like in a way where like a lowest common denominator is the only thing that we're thinking of And it's everything held out for you so painfully that like every person will get everything in this book the first time It's written in a way where like you can derive enjoyment from it if you are a casual reader But you can also derive a great deal of enjoyment if you want to be a pedantic And like digging reader like it works on multiple levels something for everyone. There's something for everyone um and Yeah, honestly like the old Old uh kids shows, you know like animaniacs that were like fun for kids, but fun for grown-ups. It's like kind of that right and stumpy Yeah, we're like when I watch I mean animaniacs now. I'm like all these jokes literally all of these jokes are for the parents Why did I like this when I was a kid? But you just didn't know you just didn't know that they were speaking to you Oh, man I love this stuff. It's my favorite Okay, well, I also look you agree with this anytime they're mean to him. I'm just like yeah, fuck that kid Yeah, honestly a little robin Uh, he's obviously been he's obviously been poisoned his whole life like I mean, he's like kind of a less uh A less cruel a less powerful joffery Yeah, it's gonna be interesting uh to see what happens with winterfell. Uh, we get a nimeria information twice in this book There's a theory that they think that the wolves uh with nimerias wolven like army is going to take back winterfell And I love that I love that so much. I think it's gonna be awesome. What are they gonna do with it? They're wolves Well, it'll depend on who's converging there at the time Um, and and and that isn't can't I mean, I just like the idea quite a bit I The knights of the veil have to play a big role, but I think it might end up being in the uh young griff battle either with cersei or with Daenerys and I guess we're kind of waiting into dance territory here Um, it'll be interesting. I remember dance the least so i'm kind of the most excited for that because like I almost feel like I mean I read it but It might be because the show was so wildly different that like that one is the least solidly in my mind Yeah, I would actually agree with that and uh, this is going to be uh the one book in this reread I'm not reading anything else as I read it. I'm going to just re-dance like I've been doing like audio and Kind of having to like notify your relatives that like no calls to the house and quit my job Not answering the door tell your wife that you're like see you in a week. I'm divorced now in fact I I actually am divorced because I need to re-dance. Just do how it happens after Like you're just gonna like charge into your cabin in the woods in the snow Just no contact Yes, I'm going to do a unabomber type deal where I just isolate myself This is not related to anything except that like being isolated, but like I don't I don't think I really talked about this with you I just talk about on my channel all the time the wolf by leo caro, which like I personally love a great deal But um, he like went to like the upper post north to like the arctic and was like in a cabin by himself in the snow writing And I was like that is so extreme sir I I actually completely understand because I I do write um, I used to have aspirations to be a writer but uh after having a professional I had to look at my last story I realized that I suck, uh, but I've always had the want to go Somewhere very extreme to make uh to to write uh into well like it also like I mean I don't think I think I would know if you had read the wolf. Um, because I'm going to Okay, I'm actually I'm actually really interested in that series because uh, the spider I actually read the spider synopsis before the wolf and the spider synopsis sounded so fascinating The spider is better than the wolf all the way. I've read the wolf more I will probably read those books this year Well, I'm gonna reread them because the cuckoo's coming out this year Well, will you let me know when you're going to reread them and I'll I'll see what I can do I I I was going to say sir whenever like let's do it When's the cuckoo come out in august? That is very doable But anyway the point being so like uh I think you already then kind of know but like the he's writing an alternate history or neanderthal developed language and culture So like they're the his characters are like advanced neanderthals who like talk and have you know Our our characters in this in this world in our world and um One of the features of their culture is that like they like to feel near Nature like it makes them uncomfortable to to live cozy because like they feel divorced From the land that they're in from the weather that they're in and it's not like written as like uh They're so badass because they're not weak and they don't want to it's more just like they are genuinely like uncomfortable A biological hug connected from so like they live kind of harshly and kind of not comfortably but because like they It's uncomfortable for them to be disconnected from the harshness of their climate And so the thinking of leo caru in his like snowy isolated arctic cabin Writing about these people that like wants to feel the cold Just like that's so extreme, sir I love that. I love that. That's so atmospheric Um I get that feeling whenever I uh when I read about the wall and saw nice and fire too like I feel so yeah if we're still going I'm also lauren said in chat that she's gonna be reading dance uh the dance of dragons for the first time Which uh, let me tell you what lauren if you watch the television show You're yeah, you're going to be yeah, it's a little further up But you're going to be so shocked by how different The book is from what the show did and you're going to see the complete divorce of the tv narrative to the book narrative And it's amazing in my opinion, especially tirion Especially everything john snow this book kid herrington. Hey john snow has facial scars in the books john snow is a great character Harrington No Northern politics are fascinating And we're going to talk about the pink letter all kinds of cool stuff Yeah, I have watched the show. Okay lauren. Yeah, you're in for a treat Uh, man dance is you're gonna go wait. What this was not in the show I was gonna say like you can get if you watch the first three seasons of the show You can get away with almost pretending that you've read the books because they're pretty Royal adaptations where like you'd have to like get into like the nitty gritty to really discover that that person hasn't read the books but like after that It's becomes easier and easier to tell Yeah, definitely. I mean there's major players that are introduced in dance that literally are not in the show Uh, like lady stoneheart and then this other character you'll meet in dance are the two biggest ones Uh, that are not included in the show that have major implications on the end game So you're gonna have a lot of fun lauren and that that makes me so excited I'm so glad that somebody uh, at least one person's joined in it hasn't read before because You know, it feels like everyone's read these books Sometimes I feel like I'm shot in the middle of like it feels like, you know, the default Opinion to think these are good books and therefore not worth mentioning or examining or thinking about It's like, you know I don't it's like saying that uh, the shashank redemption is a good film You're like, what an original opinion Like yeah, but at the same time you like it's such a default opinion That you don't think about it. And so when you actually read the books, you're like But you know what they are really good Yeah, it's to the point where it's so talked about that I think george has actually become a little bit underrated For what he does really well like because it's just so, you know, people are like, ah george, man Fact pink, it's so ubiquitous Yeah, yeah, and I'll tell you what I feel vindicated because after reading over 100 something fantasy books in the last two years And then coming back to song of ice and fire discussing it at length with you and alex And then pointing out the tom 7's streams thing like i'm like, wow, I totally miss this entire thread that is massive going forward Well, I feel like with lesser known books and authors You feel like oh, this is really good. And these are the reasons I feel like I need to explain to you Why this is so good and with song of ice and fire like, oh, it's an established thing We know it's good. It's been just declared as good by the by the Populist oh, I get shit all the time for saying it's my favorite even after reading the Because it's such a default, you know where you're just like, oh like it's like saying, oh, you think brad pit is hot like wow Yeah, right versus, you know like, oh, no, it's like it's that hipster in all of us that you're like, you know Obviously song of ice and fire is good Why don't you tell me about something that's like actually like obscure and therefore actually your opinion Whereas like, you know, there's a reason that people say these are good and when you actually like go back and read it you're like There's a reason this got The attention that it did Yeah, and I think that I feel as if people are angry there's there's a lot of people that are just angry not of just about the show but about the fact that a lot of Time has passed since the last book and I think that that comes out in their opinions of george and omar actually said if you look at the Reviews of fire and blood on good reads. There's so much rudeness towards him. It's iope Yeah, fire and blood's like his lowest rank to song of ice and fire book and it's because if you go look at the reviews Almost every single negative review is people saying it's not dance or I'm sorry. It's not wins a winner. I don't care Like that's almost exclusively what the reviews are I've read pieces of fire and blood. We're going to read it all during this reread It's really good. Like it's really good If you want to say that's the same thing that people say about the king killer chronicle and like I actually I mean, I'm obviously arrive read and reread now, you know song of ice and fire So I obviously don't agree with this that position But like with king killer in particular like with song of ice and fire There is so much that's like planted that you're like, I want to know I want to know I want to know And with king killer, I just feel like even though there is a lot of like lore and therefore there is a lot of just sort of like general questions It is so much more of like a in the moment experiencing this life story that like, okay So we haven't seen the rest of it yet. Whatever like I enjoy the part that we did have and it's not the kind of book where like You know, it's not like a cliffhanger ending where you're like, I need to know It's it's more just like, oh, that was a great day too to this journey I I look forward to day three whenever that happens. So like when people are so angry about king killer I'm like, I mean, would I like to have book three? Yes, I would but like I'm fine Like I don't want to say like I'm fine with it in the sense of like he could just never write it I mean like please do write doors of stone But like it's not the kind of series where I'm just like you you are sitting there seething because you must know How this ends it's it's a journey book and so the journey so far has been wonderful And so I'm just like if you're not reading it because there's no ending to it. I'm just like I don't know. Do you like It's very much like a road trip, you know, like if I'm on my way from la to seattle But I've currently stopped in portland. It was lovely and portland is lovely And someday we'll get to seattle and I look forward to it. But in the meantime, this was wonderful Yeah, I think I think that's a good way to look at it And I don't know about you but like there's a lot of stuff that's happened in modern fantasy that I'm not a fan of Um and without going into two details I think it's because of what's become popular and what's become Viable commercially that it might be a breath of fresh air to see Girm publish a book 10 years after his last one Because it is going to be so different from everything that's being published right now And I think so much of what people think they know about a song of ice and fire is exactly that It's stuff they think they know about a song of ice and fire Like I'm like not to be that person like but did you read it though? Like oh, I agree I think you can actually it's just like it's overrated and it's just sexual violence and it's just characters dying and I'm like Have you read it though? I guess it's not it bothers the shit out of me when people say george just kills people And it really bothers me because it's like you didn't take the effort to engage at all I've been like pestering hillary About song of ice and fire and I was like I swear it doesn't matter to me at all If you don't want to read a song of ice and fire and if you never do It really matters to me if you're choosing not to read it based on misinformation. Yes So like that's why I'm like I don't want to make it sound like I'm just really trying to convince you to read it I'm trying to make you understand what it actually is So you can decide if you actually want to read it because if you're going off of it's just Titties and dragons and it's just the characters dying and getting raped I'm just like that isn't what it is that if you're not reading it because of that Then I'm then I would need you to know that it's not that yeah I would have a big problem with someone doing that if I'm being honest Uh, fair play if someone reads the books and doesn't like them Uh, I always think there's a good way to approach also reading them But you're right if people just take it and the first time someone, you know has um some abuse put on them They're just like yep. Yep. This is right. They were right and I mean especially if anyone's read first law And is fine with that. I'm just like you can read song always. Yeah, now come on. Yeah Like low-key. I think first law is more graphic a lot of the time then I agree I'd agree with that We're again like the not that like one is better than the other but just like if you're like I've read first law But like song advice and fire like no, I'm just like Yeah, song advice and fire is fine. Yeah, it's a bit overstated. I think uh in a lot of ways Uh, and then I see what people let Slide and other works and I'm like, I feel like it's just a vendetta against For whatever there's a multitude of reasons it could be. I mean when something's this popular It's gonna happen It's gonna and with the like unfinishedness like I'll a lot of time on my quality versus quantity like there is so much of these books that like I mean to say I mean you probably can't have getting this the next book by now Like I'm not saying it takes that long But like you also like there's a reason that like With film and television and with books that like it takes longer to get a better book and so Yeah, you can you know, you can have a ton of crappy books and or you can you know, john grisham Is it john grisham? Going the rights all yeah, you can pump those out. No problem You get would you know, not what you pay for in terms of money, but in terms of time Yeah And I I'm a big fan of that and I think gurm also looked up to people out of time because remember his heroes wrote 60 70 years ago and back in the day it was very normal for a sequel to take 25 years That was a very Normal occurrence in publishing. It's not now because you know in our day and age it's It's instant, right it's tick-tock. Well, so I don't know if you ever read Neil Gaiman's like Rebuttal to the idea that readers think they're owed another book No, but I'm interested I think it was pretty much in response to the way that people talk about georgia or martin I think that was like directly what he was like responding to The way that people demand the next song of ice fire book and he wrote this like I don't know if it was like on his blog or where he wrote it I mean if you google it you can find it But he was basically saying that like they don't owe you anything and that like The contract that is between the reader and the writer is this book that you bought And they don't owe you anything more or less than that and you have that thing now They if they choose to share more with you if they are able to share more with you Then great, but they don't owe you anything more. You have not purchased their future time Their future investment their future creativity their future brain space like you bought a book and you got a book And that is all you are entitled to and I was just like Yeah Gaiman is a is a big fan of georgian one of his forward To I think it was a storm of swords is actually one of my favorite fords. I've ever read in a book um And he maintains in it that he believes george will finish the series And that was written in 2020 I mean like I don't I I don't think Basically if I think that he doesn't it's because you know nature and he dies But like I don't think there's a world in which like he's just like ah fuck it. I'm not going to do it Like I don't think that's I agree. I don't think it's a I don't think it's a screw it kind of and the same for patrick rothas patrick rothas is neurotic perfectionist Like I don't think that he's sitting there being like whatever. I don't need to write doors of stone. I think he's like Losing his mind over it and like Well, he said if I didn't care I would it would already be out Yeah, he said he also said if I had sought like mental health care earlier, you would have had it like years ago like he's You know creatives are gonna keep people like yeah I can relate And the idea that I mean like the Comparing, you know one person to another. Well, this person could write a bunch of books in one year And like I love that abercrombie writes his like trilogies in one draft and can just give them to us You know boom boom boom because he's already written him. I love that But I also like I don't I know that not everyone functions that way and not every series is written In to be like this, you know trilogy Yeah in the scale of what he's doing. Yeah, it's different. It's just a different thing. It's a differently scoped story Yeah, and so then like when I look at like a rothfuss, I mean It's not just in terms like well if they had if rothfuss had just like been You know smart and disciplined and respectful like abercrombie then we would have the whole thing already Different creatives work in different ways and like if patrick rothfuss had forced himself to fit that style Then these books probably wouldn't be very good. Yep. I uh, I I definitely think there's different approaches to doing your art and it has to be respected You don't want You don't want a guy who makes pizzas making yeburrito Well, and that's the thing about the about books too is that it is art and like Well, yes, there is contracts and money and deadlines and expectations like Okay, you can force them and rush them and you're gonna get a bad product Like yeah, I don't want that and like they feel called to do it and call to tell it and if you're gonna like sit there and like Beat them until they've churned out some pages like I would rather wait and wait until maybe someday we get something better And if that never happens because they're never able to deliver it Well, then they weren't ever going to be able to deliver it. Yep. I mean, it is what it is Like you only get a certain amount of time on this earth and that's a wrap So there's nothing else to argue about it really is the fact that like you said if they can't get it done in the Time period and they didn't get it out. It was never gonna happen So, yeah, I just feel like the way that well, I think you and I also as like content creators like to a lesser degree Know that like, you know, it it takes a lot out of you to create something and when people just like demand more I'm like by what right What right do you have to my time? What right do you have to my mind? What right do you have to my emotions because that's what writing a book is It's your time in your mind and your emotions like and no one No one has claim on that. I don't care if you've read all my books 10 times like No, you don't have a right like my soul. I completely agree with you Should joe finish his song of ice heart. No um Joe would not finish a song of ice fire and apparently daniel abraham has also went on Him and ty franca both said they wouldn't finish it and gurm is said in an interview that he does not want anyone to finish it I'll be honest If gurm doesn't finish it, it's not getting finished unless if he's gonna say like if anyone should finish it I wouldn't have thought of this before, you know, this year are talking to you But if anyone would be qualified to finish it, I think it'd be robin hob Hob or daniel abraham or would be my picks and I don't like daniel abraham is what I've read it from him. So I say hob I I do like day one abraham. I do think hob is the most reminiscent for me of george And the time period that she wrote it. I mean, I think hob's the best writer Well, also just the like patient pacing of slow building and groundwork being laid I'm like it would would it would not be the same as george writing it But she would do it some kind of justice. Yeah, and gurm has borrowed a lot from hob and uh, it may be vice versa I don't know, uh, but is very evident when you read through rumble the other links that gurm especially with a certain event that's going to happen and wins with uh, our boy john Will be very reminiscent of something that happened in farce here. Um, so I can't say anything else about that But it's clear as day. He's taken that inspiration. He's a huge fan They're friend. I mean we talked before about like the wit and warging and being yeah quite similar concepts. Yeah Um, do I think she would finish it now? It'd be my dream But uh, I think if if gurm were to no no longer be able to write the books. I think that's a wrap I guess we're out. Do you think though we would get some kind of like, uh Publication of his notes, you know, so that people would see what he had planned Yeah, I think you would I think you'd see that it'd be a lot more likely to see that than it would be the um The finishing of the series from someone else unless and this is this is always an option the estate could go against his wishes I don't think that's gonna happen though. I really don't Um, I mean tolkin's still publishing new books Yeah Jesus And and by the way, gurm does know the ending of the series Daniel Abraham said that gurm has written the last paragraph of this series and Daniel Abraham is the only person in the world that knows the ending of the arc Like he actually knows the ending of the series and he also knows the ending of multiple characters. So, uh He kind of has the keys to the castle in that regard But he I know he doesn't want to write it because someone mentioned in our last live stream And I looked it up and Daniel Abraham did say an interview. He's like I would never finish that Yeah, I mean Joe Abercrombie's been asked to that before and he's like he hates it He's like, I don't think they would ask me and if they did I don't think I could do it No, I wouldn't want him to he is too good of an authorial voice It would be impossible for him to write and it not sound like Joe Abercrombie Yeah, which I love honestly like asking any author to try to do that I mean not I mean obviously like this the reason people think of this is because of brandon sanderson or robber jordan They're like, oh, is that an option like oh, who else can do this for us? like but like in general just like asking an author like it's A double side a double-edged thing. We're like on the one hand. It's kind of a privilege and an honor But on the other hand, it's like kind of like a big fuck you that like I'm my own author with my own stories to tell and like they had their story to tell and they didn't finish it like Yes, kind of you know, it sucks, but not my problem um Actually fun fun fact a wheel of time Uh, the other option other than brandon sanderson that uh harriet. I believe is uh jordan's Uh person's name. I don't know if it's his wife or not Uh, georgia mart was the other person that was considered for finishing wheel of time But they knew that he had a song of ice and fire already going and they didn't want that there's a bit of a tone shift Yeah, well, they didn't want to take him away from his fandom and they said he already has a fandom It would only do harm and they picked brandon sanderson a little bit of a lust or not They're obviously had a really tight relationship with robert and that's Kind of why brandon sanderson and i'm not saying all they they wanted to go with girm first No, i'm just saying girm That's one of the reasons why they didn't go with girm is because he already had a thing And I think you have a crombie falls into that as well and now also ty franca daniel abraham have the expanse well, and also i mean like as Like, you know, it would i am sure it makes him deeply uncomfortable because i know we get to ask for this a lot Because people like to lump together for us law and and song of ice and fire And to constantly be asked like so like this author That's still alive and that might still finish his series. Would you finish his series when he dies and it's just like And he is friends with george by the way Yeah, like they he wrote the ford for a game of thrones in folio. I mean they are legitimately their colleagues It's very weird Very weird. Um, I don't actually love postulating about it because I do think it's a little disrespectful Um, but it is a question that comes up so often that you kind of have to have an answer for it But I I am now in the camp of I don't think it will ever be finished if george were to not be able to write the ending so Yeah, no, I think we would We would come to learn what the ending is, but we wouldn't get books Yep I agree I second that Joe's awesome But yeah, I mean and that's the thing like it's someone's it's your Because any author that's being asked to this for someone else Can't help but think of their own work being handled this way by someone else later, you know, it's just like you don't Yep Yeah, let's not plan for that's right. Lauren. You're damn right It's rude Yeah If people say it so vindictively, you know, it's it's kind of gross. I do not look forward to the day That that happens and I have to see many people that I think I respect I know what's gonna happen with stupid takes On said social media like twitter Uh, there'll be a lot of blocking and then the same vein if with wins ever gets announced I'm gonna be the most petty person you've ever met liana. I'm going to make a video Crapping on every single booktuber. I saw Say, uh, he's never gonna publish the next but I will be the most petty person in the world So it was true when you said that only me and alex are your friends. Oh, I will no one will be your friend I No, no, I'm not kidding you. I've taken screenshots of people who have said really rude stuff about george I'm not even kidding. I'm so I mean honestly like because again being uh, I'm a fan of song advice and fire Not like you are but I am like a bigger stan of like king killer and I just like Yeah, like patrick rothas can be an asshole and I don't deny that like he comes off as kind of an asshole but I just like I The kind of fresher he's under and today after day Get constantly rebarred with people being like where's book three? Where's book three? Is this book three? Why aren't you writing book three? Why are you doing literally anything else? Why do I see you at the grocery store? Why aren't you writing book three like I would also be an asshole and so then like I just like Is it the best way to handle it considering up your public persona? I don't know probably not but like Do I completely understand the instincts to just be like screw you leave me the fuck alone? Like yes, I do So like I don't I Yeah, like doors of stone sure love it can't wait for him to hopefully write it someday But in the meantime like whatever leave him alone Yeah, and also like move on a little bit because yeah It's it's funny because the people who are the loudest are like, I don't even care about it anymore And it's like you clearly do it's like well great. Well, shut up about it. Yeah, exactly move on Move on if it's if it's so not that special go find something else to be obsessed with But you can't well, it's the same thing is like comments on videos You know people who are like your opinion is meaningless and no one cares about you and here's an essay in which that I You're like well you care So what you know how many times I've gotten comments about like the winds is never coming out. You're you know, you're out of your mind Okay I got I got a nice day. I got the screenshots I'm ready folks. I'm ready and and when you move that gold post, okay when you go, but but jimmy When is a dream for spring coming out and I'm gonna go it doesn't matter And I'm gonna do the same thing I'm doing now with winds Because you know as soon as winds comes out. Well, who cares even though winds was great Dream of spring is never coming out. It's like, okay, whatever keep moving your goalpost loser I'm over it Also the notion they can't work on anything else in the meantime when you know for creative to like refresh the creative Well is important and that like it might be Not guaranteed but it might be part of their creative process to be like I am burned out on this world and I am burned out on these characters that I've been trying to finish And I need to step away from it and I need to tell a different story before I come back to this and I'm like Do you I've wrote a short story and I'm gonna need to edit it and I'm like I just want to write something else. I'm sick and tired of looking at Demetri's dumb face Like I'm good king bashing kick rocks. I don't want to edit the story I'm sick of talking about like I just want to move on to my next thing I can't imagine how george feels writing something over three decades. I can't imagine So basically in summation Kindness costs nothing That's right Let people do their art and and chill. You know, whenever your boss micromanages you'll work and tells you to work a little bit faster Oh, hey, what what are you doing last tuesday? Why didn't you get this stuff? That's what you're doing to the artist that you love that has provided you an escape And a mechanism to to get end out of your own head. So stop don't be an asshole. It's easy Can you tell I get mad about this? I get really upset. I get mad about it too. I get really mad I'm sorry people. I'm not I'm not really this petty, but I'm very petty when it comes to this Okay, there's enough people attacking those authors. They need people in their corner fighting back Yeah, and I don't you know, people like well, why do you simp for them? They don't pay you any money and it's like, well, I don't care Well, who's paying you to attack them? Yes, because I think you're stupid This might be the most spicy I've ever been on on video I don't know. I just entitlement of any kind and angers me and it is just it is entitlement straight through and through To demand an author Write a book because you want the ending a toast story. I agree I totally agree Life doesn't owe you anything if you learned anything from a song of ice and fire Life doesn't owe you anything and then you die This is a wonderful stream It's like life is a feast for crows Also low key the number of times in feast for crows that we got the title In the book George was a lot Angry drunk. I'm not I'm maybe a little angry. I'm not drunk though. I Was drinking heavily earlier, but I'm okay now Yeah Shit So, yeah Dance with dragons. It'll be that's on alexa's channel. That'll be on alexa's channel It's in it's the longest book on uh, it's second longest book on the Also, I thought we'd like figure out and slash announce during this live, but alexa isn't here What's next is it going to be fire and blood or duncan egg? I think duncan egg is the play because apparently there's a rumor that in april We will be getting house of the dragon and I think if we do fire and blood in april It would be a great thing to do I also think it's good to leave off on fire and blood because it's the next thing coming in the uh, the film Or television universe. So okay, so we're locking in that on your channel. We're doing duncan egg in Come back. Yeah, we'll come back to you for fire and blood. Yep. Okay And then we'll end it where we started on your channel I think that would be great because you're the one where are we doing empire of the vampire Uh, definitely alexa's channel. I don't want that. I don't want that In my feed In cluttering up my immaculate Channel all these beautiful books. I don't want to eat that. I'll just say alexa isn't here. So we voted And the majority roles it is now the vampire It is known by the old gods and the new alexa's fridge So who's gonna run his channel? I'll take his channel over like talk about dresden a little bit a couple book hauls. It's easy Well, I you know chat today. We learned that the secret source of his power Are his beautiful bookshelves. So like duel of the fates and star wars just stand in front of them And just become one with the bookshelves and talk about the pink mast and bring it up repeatedly. Yes Alex gonna watch that So yeah on that note, you know only four hours on the book that people uh, this is our longest chat to say And like feast for crows was the one that for years I've been like well, then you end up with something shit like feast for crows. It's so good I feel like this is like the comeuppance that would I would do redemption just like jamie House proved wrong fantastic Okay, all right then it's much later where you are and it's pretty late here. It's one. I've never stepped this late I'm gonna your life. I'm in bed by like 10. I'm usually Yeah, well, since I've turned 30 everything's changed Well, jimmy your watch has ended my watch has ended folks. Can you believe it? Not really though? We have a couple more books. So stay tuned All right, well then Good night and good luck And thanks everyone for the chat And in the chat, we appreciate you and liana. Thanks for having me on and talking about this and and putting up with my My rants stay tuned for when I make you read my favorite The wolf I am excited See everyone