 So thank you everybody to be here with us after lunch and to have this conversation about housing justice. It's very exciting to be with you to talk about it and to advance this agenda, which is something that we've been working on from my idea for a while. And I will talk a little bit more about the history of this in a minute. In a minute, but I also just like to acknowledge that we in this session we're going to be bringing on better to take away from Islam check dwellers international she's going to give some of her perspective on the issue. Then we're going to have inputs from Lauren Royston, the director of research and advocacy at social economic rights Institute of South Africa. And we're going to have inputs from Professor Adriana Allen. She's a professor at the battle development planning unit, but also the president of Habitat International Coalition, and then we're going to be having some closing remarks from my colleague Camila Cosina she's a researcher, also at IID, and she's going to be bringing some thoughts about our ongoing work from my idea on this topic. So, if we go into our presentation. I think, you know, Tom alluded to some remarks that I thought reminded me of Barbara Ward, a book which David Satois that I think is in the call has been quite involved in its production, which is around the home of 1976 a very important publication that actually talk about this life sustaining systems that are in the urban environments and the importance of them for our future. And it was a really interesting to hear from Mitchell in a way talking about about going beyond housing justice precisely to engage in those life sustaining systems or, you know, so it was those underpinning issues but I just wanted to highlight that housing has been at the core of what I did as since its beginning. It has been really a huge motivation to address issues related to housing discrimination housing deprivation in the cities of the global south throughout its its initial stages and there was quite a bit of housing research done when Jorge Hadoi can put brought together the human settlements group and together David Satois you can already see some publications from early 80s relating issues of housing and health. So just to show how how much history there is of course in the organization to deal with issues of housing. And recently that I think we as an institute to have explored the issues related to housing in slightly different ways. A basic service. Wash, in terms of water and sanitation that has been, of course, issues related to tenor security, but housing, as in itself, hasn't been articulated as an agenda. And that's something that when I joined two years ago we discussed internally is thought, should we convene a work related to housing as a way to shed light on a lot of the issues that have been already been discussed within IID but also trying to connect to ongoing conversations in this field. And that's when we started exploring the concept of housing justice. I don't have control here. And, and also, it was a moment that in IID and here reflecting in the in the 2020, 2020, and then also a little bit earlier when David Sato I put together this special report for the United States and local governments that was precisely looking at the role of local governments in in advancing housing policy, inclusive housing policy and addressing other good housing. But importantly for this event, there has been two very significant special issue of environmental organization focused on housing, and they were really like really incredible compilation of of issues addressing a series of very important aspects of housing we heard in volume one that David Sato I wrote a brilliant, brilliant editorial and I encourage you to have a look at it, bringing to the forefront the importance to draw lessons from the struggles by informal segment dwellers to get security of tenure and to avoid evictions, particularly in face of government hostility and exclusionary market forces. There was a series of emphasis also on diversity of housing options for affordable housing the importance to recognize different ways of dealing with affordable housing. And of course, you're already starting to dig into the issues of market processes that there was so much going on that actually there was a second special issue in 2020. At the time of this publication it was already I think October. It was, we are already going through effects of the pandemic, and inevitably that special issues started connecting the experiences of the pandemic to housing deprivation and highlighting how, actually, they do that are living in more housing deprived context were were were affected by the pandemic we had data being articulated in one of the papers for example, that show that mortality rate in Sao Paulo were reported to be 10 times higher in low income areas of the city. So the debate there again highlighted and brought to the forefront the issues of inequalities and deprivation, and it was made even stronger by the by the current conditions that were leaving the pandemic and the health emergency. So the second special issue that was edited by Diane Meathley and Sherry Bartlett. Also, I started the pink and shedding light on what it was called citizen housing initiatives, and really the importance of community led processes and I think that's a very important element that was also present in that publication. So, bringing all this content to life, and also through a series of conversations and engagements that we've been having since 2020. We started to think through the lens of what we're saying of calling housing justice. And if we go to the next slide. I mean, yeah, I'm gonna guess. This is in the backdrop of a huge international housing crisis I think we, we don't need to reemphasize that people in the room and in the call much, very much aware of what are the, the global housing crisis and also who are those that are most at the forefront of those of those housing challenges in terms of scale and depth, we see at those at the cities of the global south being constantly in face of evictions multiple types of displacements and which evictions in securities that are led by housing this housing crisis. And through, through that context and all of those different debates and knowledge we, we started thinking of, of, of a way of framing those issues that we try to highlight a particular set of processes or experiences that helps us to build a political agenda not only a research and, and again, going back to Thomas initial input here, kind of calling us provoking us to be not only researchers but, but activists in our field. And we felt that through this dialogues that housing justice could perform a set of functions that they could actually bring to light set of issues and help us to articulate some very important issues that will be important to generate responses about this housing crisis. And just a parenthesis here, some of those reflections also much through a very important dialogue that we convened together with Habitat International Coalition that developed planning units, called housing rights looking backwards looking forward. And I encourage you to have a look at it, maybe come in I can share the link to it in the chat, but in that dialogue also we started exploring this aspect of how we articulated the issues of housing rights, how does it frame our responses. And how do we need to reveal about those framings to allow us to, to work collectively and to align forces to try to affect change in face of this international global crisis that we, that we are dealing with. So, what does housing justice do in this context, and we feel there are five key points that that we I wanted to share with you. One is that it recognize the historical legacies of discrimination and housing justice starts from the perspective that housing deprivation is being experienced by particular groups we have women. The racial issues have been at the forefront young people been excluded from housing opportunities. They have issues around LGBT. We have, you know, series of issues around ethnicity and religion, and etc. And those issues are not just experiences today, this is accumulated through history and bringing this to the forefront of our discussions is about highlighting how people have been excluded from this and the necessary efforts in the politics of repair or curation. I think this is, this opens up important conversations, for example, on issues related to loss and damage and I'm going back to the conversations we've been having this morning around the genders of climate justice and climate change and the intersections between them. And the second point that for us, housing justice that I think I'm not sure if we're sharing the presentation. Yeah, the second thing that I think housing justice does to us is the connection between housing and human flourishing and we are doing our current research that after us we talk a little bit more about it that's been commissioned by Habitat for Humanity International that outlines exactly the evidence that we have at the moment that outlines the role that housing play in advancing issues of human development. And this, we actually have plenty of data out there that demonstrates that housing deprivation reduces life expectancy, it reduces opportunities for people to stay at school, and that actually reduces income opportunities, just to say the least. And so we are saying that housing has a fundamental role to conditions people's access to all sorts of different set of rights, and to have an opportunity to have a meaningful quality of life. The third element that we feel housing justice does in terms of our political operation is to capture the urban dimension of housing. What we mean by that is that housing locks cities into a particular type of urban development pathway, as much as it can help to disrupt them. But if we keep building high rise buildings in the outskirts of cities we're going to continue building a city that is using a lot of a lot of petrol it is a high emission, we're going to do nothing for the net zero objectives that we're doing we need to start talking about the possibilities that densifying particular areas of the city reducing usage and thinking of construction processes that unlocks us from those high carbon intensive development pathways that are not only bad for the planet, but also reinforcing inequalities. So we feel that housing has that possibility of locking cities in but as much as trying to disrupt those lock ins that are embedded in our urban development pathways. Then housing justice is also about provoking us to think of housing policy beyond national governments, they are not the only ones that design housing policies or housing programs housing policies are located in very different places within communities. The norms and regulations that shape our houses produced, as we know is in informal settlements is in the in the escorted buildings as much as within local governments and as much as international agencies that also are promoting particular styles and particular norms so what we are saying here is that we need to really rethink where housing policy is located to be able to even rethink what housing policy is and what it should do. And finally, for us what's very important is to do all of those things in in an epistemic justice perspective in the sense that what we are bringing to the forefront is that we need to produce knowledge that unlock different ways of imagining housing futures. And for that we require partnership approaches of knowledge co-production that is rooted in relationships and partnerships that are looking at these experiences from the those that are suffering the exploitations the discrimination, and I in the frontline try to address this housing global crisis. So here, again, in line with all of our colleagues already talking about it, we are looking at these crisis from the perspective and with those that are living in insecure housing conditions and trying to do something about it and that's I think it's a it's an ethos of our group that's a it's part of what we've been doing. So, in line in light of this, we have developed a very nice little brief that's a fly that you have here on in your tables but also, we'll be sharing with you online that outlines some of those, those, those issues in our agenda in terms of our priority areas. So this session today is really to, to open up those priority areas with our colleagues with our partners, and ask them to react, ask us to provoke those, those areas to tease us to, to talk about the borders of action in this field, and really to point out what areas are not there what is what are we missing what else can we be doing. In this document we outlined three, three different areas of work. One is around the capabilities on mobilization, where we talk about the need for, for us to address some of the issues that affecting grassroots groups to mobilize and to continue advocating for, for housing rights on the ground and and the, what are the ways through which we can continue supporting that facilitating learning, supporting those struggles and strengthening those capabilities to address the, this housing crisis in the field. The second set of issues that we, we are interrogating within our work is around policy and practice. And here we are trying to respond to policies that continue to to be led by narrow market led rationales, continue to be carbon intensive continue to be exclusionary and not meeting people's needs and aspirations. So how do we tackle that face on and looking at the local governments but also national, national policymaking contexts. And then the third area for us it's very important is, is operating an international level what you know, in our assessment international housing actors, and not at the moment addressing this housing injustices. At best they are omitting to it, often deepening these injustices we have an international sector that is quite fragmented and fragile in relation to housing. And really we are trying to call on you call now partners to think together where, where, where the places that we should be advocating that we should be joining forces to try to achieve change. And at the moment of this international landscape in our assessment, it's, it's quite difficult to be navigated given the fragility that it is at the moment so where where the, the current key places that we should be should be targeted and what are the challenges that we should be conveying for us is one of the key issues that we're trying to advance together with partners like those today in the call that's going to give some of their inputs. So, actually, I'm going to, I'm going to stop here because, because I think what we'll, what I would like to bring into this conversation now, and we can maybe stop sharing the presentation. So I would like to ask those that are online to, to actually to think about some of those from their experience. What do they see as the, let's say the frontier of knowledge or in terms of what are the key challenges in relation to these issues. This is from Lauren, Lauren Royston, as I mentioned to you, she's based in South Africa, and she, she works in an organization that's called SETI, and SETI has been doing fantastic worker legal work to support communities that are living in in in constant violations of housing rights and, and how organization has been making a lot of gains and a lot of interesting, bringing to light an interesting spaces through which legal action can can help to advocate for housing rights in South Africa. And so, Lauren, for me, I reached out to you, Lauren, because I think you, you have a very unique perspective and experience in this field. And I wanted to hear from you about your views are aware, where are the current policy and governance challenges that that you think at the frontline of shaping housing justices or that we should be targeting to advance housing justice. Lauren, are you with us. Hello, can you hear me. Yes, we can. Okay. Hello, everyone. And thank you very much for the invitation. And for the acknowledgement of the work that series doing so thanks for that introduction. So, delighted to be here. Some comments then I'm not sure how long each of us have. So could you just give me an indication of that before I start. You have five minutes I think. Okay, you want to go a little bit over I think we can, we can do a bit. Okay, so please tell me when I need to start wrapping up. Thank you. And so I think that I read the pamphlet before in advance and that was really useful in terms of trying to position some of what I have to say. So I want to make three sets of comments or three responses. And the first one is really about the wider governance systems that you raise. And so I think there, what's really important is if we're looking at frontiers and where we want to push. I know that there are very many different organizations in the room. And but I think inclusion is critical in governance so I'd like to motivate for this notion of participatory governance. Of course there's many different aspects of that. I think participatory government governance is key. And if we were to unpack that in terms of what some of the prerequisites are. I've just come out of a two day local government municipal convening of civil society organizations. And so my head is very much around in the space of participatory governance. And I think the key things to house injustice. I think the key things are about access to information municipal and the other arenas of government public spending and then accountability and transparency. Obviously linked to information access. And I think there are a series of key ideals that that are useful when we're thinking about governance and to advocate for so some of those are around a developmental perspective. A rights realisation perspective and a democratic perspective. So those are all sort of quite high level comments. And I think that what is required is that we adopt a particular focus on vulnerabilities. When I looked to that I would advocate for a lens on use a lens on gender and a lens on human rights. So I think those would be three key particular areas to focus on in respect of housing justice. And then I would say that budgets in particular are important. But the allocation of resources to housing. It's about how housing investment gets planned and what those processes are. And then it's about expenditure and being able to better review and hold to account public and private sector actors around expenditure. So then I would make a like to make some comments, building on that on it's often easier to talk about housing injustice. And with that in mind, I'm trying to focus more on the solutions and the less despair, more optimism and so on. And I think they what's really important is that we have a perspective that looks yes at violations. So evictions would be critical in that regard. But I think we also have to go beyond that. And for me that would be critical to consider from a policy perspective practice. So practice can be disaggregated into official practice, political practice. And if you like community practice as well. And when we're looking at community practice, I think it's very useful to understand history and contemporary struggles. And if we look into that sets the norms and local rules that you already mentioned in the introduction. But in general terms, because of market exclusion and evictions and often states that that aren't propoa for a better way of putting it. I think what's very important is to understand the question of self provision and what kind of support self provision might need. And so, but there are also aspects of self provision that affect vulnerable people more. So where the state is absent or relatively absent, or the market excludes people are self providing this, they're organizing in different ways and I think in this respect, we need to look at the constraints those local practices often depend on highly processial and they depend on negotiability. And only some people are able to enter into that those sets of relationships locally around negotiability. So there are some constraints, I'm not attempting to say that self provision provides the answers we need recourse, we wearing a justice lens, we certainly need recourse. As if we're looking locally at self provision and local practices. What is the recourse that's required to ensure that there is justice, and that there is an external recourse that can predict protect vulnerable groups. And then I think my time is almost upright. Yes. Okay. Okay, so I'm drawing to close. When we're looking at housing in relation to security of tenure and basic services affordability and location, many of the questions that you identify that you raise in your pamphlets. I think that they are some non material aspects of housing that are very important. And in that respect, it's belonging. And security, and dignity. And I think that housing. When we engage with the partners with whom we work, people often say that we can construct our own house. That is something we can self provide, but we can't easily provide the safe infrastructure. It's a legal recognition that is required for us to have a sense of security. And so I think when we're looking at housing, let's also look at what relates to housing. I know that you probably trying to focus on housing, and more specifically, but my final word is let's also look at what it means to have a home. What is home mean, and what are the different dimensions of home, including the values of dignity and belonging and participation in governance. Thank you. Wonderful. Thank you for this input and I really appreciate how you finish in terms of pushing us to think about the different dimensions of home and I think that is quite a line with this idea of thinking of imagining housing futures and what what are the values that are shaping those visions of housing futures and I think that's this fundamental aspect and thank you so much for bringing this aspect of belonging, dignity and security. And I'd like to bring a Beth and I'll take with Beth from your experience working quite closely with the federations of up on poor in many different contexts. So what do you see as the main challenges that communities organized groups are facing in trying to advance some of those issues that Lauren was telling, telling us around issues of participatory governance pushing for the allocation of resources to dealing with issues of participatory governance, she brought in issues of also how this is affecting particularly groups, young people really to gender and human rights. Could you tell us a little bit what you see as being the, the kind of key challenges or even the responses that communities are having to advance this agenda on the ground. Thanks Alex and it's a privilege to be part of this. Convening I've lent a lot from all of those that have made presentation before us. I think a starting point is to recognition that there are very few governments that are propo or have mastered policies and practices that actually can cater for people in the category of poor this is including in the city where you are located as IED. The challenge is that almost look all local authorities have a definition of what they see is adequate housing. And the, the, the illegalization of communities that do not fit within that category or who can access housing in that in those spaces. I think the previous speaker is located in South Africa so South Africa is a subsidy or we used to have a subsidy, but even that still did not address the issues and I think it starts from the policy framework. Exclusionary way participation in the design of even your constitutions, there is a category of people that are able to participate in that. So you, you starting basically from, from that premise that people occupy pieces of land they already defined as illegal and the opportunities that they bring, which is what my SDI colleagues, I think the engineers who have spoken about in terms of mobilizing communities, driving their own loan fund to self build or to self identify land and purchase land will never go to scale because the challenges are so huge. Without a policy shifts in the practice shifts, you can only do so much. I'll give you two examples. In the 2013 revision of the Zimbabwe constitution they put in a clause with access to housing is a right for children. So children in Zimbabwe the right to housing, but how do you exercise a right for children to housing when you don't, you don't address the issue of the whole family. It's kind of like a cop out by by government in that respect. Then, I think, as you mentioned, the community, the federation in Kenya had to develop a new standard of planning in order to get informal settlement rights. They had to essentially use legal instruments in order to get a new protocol around slum upgrading. But even with that, housing is still is a very contested issue in that community. Because to a large extent, housing is individualized. The markets in terms of finance individualizes loans and in the informal settlements, people are not homogeneous. In slums, you have slum loans whose interests are not the same as their tenants. So the complexities of that also bring additional challenges even where a breakthrough has happened. I think institutionalizing certain aspects of provision is the biggest challenge that SDI affiliates find. I know my colleague George, they've been working since 2011 with the city of Harare to try and develop a slum upgrading protocol so that you're not doing these pilots over and over again, but that this actually sits within the city is a bylaw in terms of addressing housing provision. I totally believe that communities of the poor came to some extent self-provide housing, but even if they do that, they don't build in the same way. They don't build housing all at the same time. They build incrementally. A house is a lot more than just where people live. It often has additional components in terms of providing space for operating businesses. So all those components have to be addressed. I just wanted to end on a positive note. I have three issues that I think mobilized communities bring to this debate. They definitely test existing policies and demonstrate their inadequacies. They develop alternative ways and agitate in some cases or negotiate change and can be successful as in the cases that I've mentioned. And then of course a big contribution is they are collecting data that local government can use at scale to understand the housing needs of communities. The SDI affiliate in South Africa here in Cape Town actually routinely gets hired by the city to collect data for them to understand informal settlement service and housing needs. And I see those as critical in inputting into a more progressive housing process, but it's a huge, I think the market distorts where housing provision or methods have been identified. And they often get hijacked by higher income families because there are no other alternatives with such a class of people. So there are a lot of complexities around provision, housing provision, especially for the poorest. Sorry to cut you short, but thank you so much for those inputs. And I would like to go straight to Adriana Allen and there was a question in the chat, Adriana, that maybe you can pick up in your response. Because around what is the political agenda to highlight to address the fragility of you and habitat on housing, because I wanted to ask you from your perspective operating also the international scale with Habitat International Coalition trying to advance knowledge sharing as well as advocacy targeting international actors such as you and habitats. Where do you see as being the main hotspots, the main actors and processes that we should be targeting to advance this agenda. Thank you so much. Alex and thanks to the whole IID Human Settlement Group for the very thought provoking discussion so far and also for the invitation. Before I start, and I just want to congratulate IID Human Settlement Group on two fronts. One is for such a long trajectory in really opening and showing the road to advance justice across so many areas. I mean, we really need to think of what it means for an organization to do this for so many decades and we know that that work has influenced and has had, you know, many of the work we do every day, and has opened multiple roads well, you know, from the mid 70s. And the second bit of congratulations go to the decision to put housing justice really at the forefront of today's agenda in terms of IID's Human Settlement Group and I think that this is again crucial particularly at the time in which we see housing dropping very much of the agenda. So let me go to your question with perhaps three reflections. So we move to the level of thinking about the role of international solidarity, the role of, you know, again, action, advocacy and mobilization in the international arena to advance housing justice. And I think that, and I will come back to the question on the chat as well on that. I think that for me there are, I mean, it's very important to use this space, not to be self complacent and I think that there are three critical challenges that we face when it comes to international solidarity and its role again in the housing justice that we need to really watch very close. And we need to talk about the first one is to acknowledge that, of course, there is no question that international solidarity action and advocacy and mobilization play a critical role in crafting housing justice, but we do need to be very aware, I think, and very watchful of the increasing levels of fragmentation, competition and dispersion in what we do. And I just want to, I don't want to sound negative with this but I think that again when we are among friends, when we are, you know, among a community of practice that is pursuing the same agenda, it's quite good to talk about the problems we face. I think that what we have seen throughout the COVID-19 pandemic is really telling us a big story. And that story for me tells us that we are in terms of international solidarity, advocacy and action, we have the tendency to very often move at points with the rhythm of inflection moments that we call crisis. And unfortunately, we don't call many of those moments a housing crisis. And the question here when we again when we look at the pandemic what we can see is that in a very short period, a massive amount, you know, the housing agenda really at the time were an massive amount of very bold measures that were unthinkable the day before being taken in the form of housing emergency measures. Now, very soon when it felt that the pandemic came out of control or perhaps I would say or claim it became the pandemic became normalized as another condition that we live with. What we saw was the discontinuity of those measures. And this is something that we have explored with you, Alex and Camila, in terms of the real teeth that many of those measures I'm talking here about rental holidays, mortgage holidays, the redeployment of existing homes for those living on the streets and many more measures that we all know what we, what we miss perhaps was the opportunity or we still need to go back to is to say okay we were able to make those measures at a time that was recognized or frame as crisis. We do need to continue and sustain those actions. A second point connected to this first point has to do again I mentioned before the issue of competition and I think that here we have to be very aware that housing is in is very often or falls very often in competition with other other agendas and clearly with the urban climate agenda. This doesn't need to be the case, but this morning there was a discussion around the trade off that we might need to face when we talk about the normative agenda, and also about the agendas, and I do think that very often the trade off that we put forward are really unnecessary are really a distraction or a diversion for the real synergies. So in that sense, I think that we all know that actually there is no climate justice without housing justice, and that means means a lot. How do we keep you know how do we build that link in my view is essential. Let me now go to the second key challenge that I think we face any and that relates to the need of new forms of multilateralism, and this goes to the question that was in the chat with regards to UN habitat as an example of you know what do we have at the moment in terms of you know a specific bodies and agencies within the UN system is somehow placing or locating the issue of you know justice and to a certain other extent of housing justice. I think that here we, we have to acknowledge and depart from the fact that we have a very deficient system, deficient system. And this is not only a complain about UN habitat, a very marginal and marginalized agency within the UN system, but the, if you wish the increasing trend by which we can see the growing trend by which we can see the increasing becoming less and less accountable. And in that sense, we do need to push back. We need to push the boundaries of multilateralism to really place local actors and here I mean both organized civil society and local and regional governments really back in that agenda. When we look at the different multilateral agreements that we have, we see that there is really very little space, yeah, go to the high level political forum go to many reference points go to the COP and so on and you will find that actually there is very, very limited space to listen directly to the voices of those who are really crafting the urban future. So this is quite essential. We also know that national players are inadequate and that international action in many ways lacks scale and ambition. So pushing those boundaries is really critical. And my last point I know that we have pushed for time has to do with highlighting something that was also mentioned in the morning. And this has to do with the need to not only to link, but to anchor to make extra efforts to anchor pathways of critical learning advocacy and action. And with this I mean that international solidarity needs to be constantly grounded on the everyday reality of women and men, girls and boys. It needs to engage with their struggles, it needs to engage with their practices with their aspirations. It needs to be feminist. It needs to be vocal in acknowledging their full diversity. It needs to be very mindful of again questions that questions of who keeps on falling through the net, and why is that not not as the beneficiaries that we elusive beneficiaries. And that's one of the interventions I think it was Andrea Nightgale very rightly highlighted this morning talks very much about our inability at points to really tackle and talk to the power structures that keep on reproducing difference and inequalities as one. So I'm just going to stop here because I know that we are pushed for time and very much look forward to also listen to the audience. Thank you. Thank you so much, and yeah, sorry to cut short but as you know we're going to be continue talking about this in, in many other situations so I'm looking forward to the continued conversation thanks for the inputs. I'm just now going to Camila Cossinha, again researcher, as I mentioned in the beginning of, of ID, and she joined in September the group, and since she joined she put a huge energy into into our activities, and being able to actually put forward a series of provocations on the table, because she has a lot of work and engagement in this field. She's based in Santiago. She should share with us some insights from our ongoing work and how it relates with some of the inputs that have been given so far. Camila, over to you. Thank you Alex. So, I've been given a quite difficult task that is to try to connect all the super interesting and rich inputs that the three panelists have shared with us with the actual work that we are trying to put forward in the House injustice program from the human settlement that as you know, as Alex presented we are, we have organized in these kind of three themes that for us are kind of entry points to do a variety of activities that have as a kind of umbrella, umbrella notion this idea of how to advance justice. So, one of them of course has to do with the importance of strengthening capacities of grassroots and capabilities to actually influence decision making, and basically the assumption here is that housing justice is advanced when grassroots are more able to influence decision making. And therefore we're trying to work with local partners to build these capacities to contest housing injustices, because in a way as Ben was saying, communities are most of the time the ones who are pushing those new protocols, those new planning instruments, and through their diversity trying to kind of both test what is not working but also develop alternatives and producing data and so on. But actually the capacity of groups to actually be part of the conversation is in a way it needs to be constantly renewed because new challenges emerge and I think the way we are trying to do in these lives in this stream is basically to collaborate with partners in a way that those capacities and mobilizations capabilities are strengthened and continue growing. And one project that we are developing in this line is about the use of civic media, I mean practices related with technology with communication with social media, and the way in which different grassroots groups are actually using this media to advance housing rights and we are doing a very interesting work with partners in San Paolo and in Lagos, and in Lagos, in which organized groups are actually using, using several organizations to both organize internally but also to influence decision making. We just came back from from a couple of super intense weeks in San Paolo, working with Nyao in which we actually were exposed to the variety of different housing processes that the group, the groups organized in San Paolo are advancing. Some of them, most of them are self provision or self management as they call facing a lot of constraints as Laurie was saying but also with impressive benefits we visited and worked with a series of for instance, retrofit experiences in San Paolo in which through collective self management actually people are producing housing solutions that are not only more participatory and more inclusive but also better in terms of quality and better in terms of size and better in terms of housing habitability conditions that many of the alternatives that the government are producing. So in a way, using the entry point of communication practices, we are trying to find ways through work with partners in which that advanced housing justice from their own practices. A second line of work is more related with policy and practice. And again, part of the work that we are trying to do is to challenge where those policies take place. So this is this doesn't mean only working with government, but actually trying to open up the understanding of how governance and the ecosystem of actors and practices and documents and legal procedures are actually producing housing policies and actually advancing housing justice. And here we are working both always through partners and with partners with national governments. This is the case of the price that we are conducting with the, in the context of Sierra Leone, particularly in collaboration with the Sierra Leone Urban Research Center, in which what the role that we are trying to play there is not only as kind of adversaries in terms of what the content of housing policies should be, but more importantly about how to set up a process that actually recognize different stakeholders in the process of decision that you're making for the principles behind a housing policy that plays inequality at the center, or plays equality at the center, but also working with local governments and I am so glad to hear that so many of the intervention started to pick up about the role of local action of local governments, or sub national governments more widely, that actually are taking the lead in many countries, both in context of crisis as those are so called crisis as Adriana was mentioning, but also in the everyday kind of activities that local governments do, they're actually mobilizing housing policies housing initiatives in ways that many times allow a much kind of bold imagination of what housing justice can look like. And the third layer of work that we are doing as Alex introduced is about this international advocacy work and, of course, the points that Adriana made are fantastic I'm not going to repeat them but I think what the way in which we are trying to add to that is precisely to participate and foster the solidarity bonds among those groups that are at the moment struggling to put forward a common agenda, even though some of the normative positions are very clearly common but the very architecture of the international landscape makes it quite hard to do so. We are trying to facilitate those processes through the involvement in particular projects and I will also in that, in that gathering of different actors in those processes of engaging, trying to shift some of those narratives I'm trying to shift of some of those narratives in ways that that actually the twin challenges of growing inequalities and climate change can be treated as a single one and not as a kind of opposite ones as Adriana was mentioning but also finding the strategies and how the housing justice entry point can give some answers to that. And we are working there for instance, we have a long standing relationship with United Cities and Local Governments, but also working with actors that we haven't we hadn't engaged with in the past I just have it for humanity we are producing a report for them, and now about the returns in terms of human development of investing in housing in informal settlements that is going to come out in a few months and also working with the more traditional international actors such as the, you know, the high level political forum, and with this I'm going to finish which has been quite interesting. I've been also with the, with the DPU and colleagues such as Adriana in putting together the report on the progress from the subnational governments on advancing SDG 11, and particularly SDG 11.1 on housing, and we are trying to bring forward the lens of human rights, such as Lori was in the beginning in looking at how local governments are actually finding instruments to respect, protect and fulfill the right to adequate housing in ways that actually are inclusive and in ways in which actually challenged the very governance of what housing policies are. And I'm going to close there because I'm not running out of time but thank you so much for the fantastic inputs. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all the panelists. Do we have time for questions? Okay, we do have five. Wow, we've got five minutes. So, any comments, questions from those in the room or in this digital space? Do you have one online? Baggy, if you'd want, if you care to. We brought up this question, is it Maggie's question there? I raised this already with Adriana, and I think let's get a few other questions in there. Yes, we have Alison. I have two quick questions. The first is how do we deal with high-rise cities? You said Alex, the high-rise is mostly on the periphery towns. It is in some cities. But the problem with high-rises, there's a number of huge issues. Many of the occupants are tenants, they have no relationship with the owners. The maintenance of high-rise buildings is poor, there's much less community, there's a sense of community because people simply don't meet each other going into their houses. The second question is how do we deal with housing justice for migrants? So, those people are coming into cities temporarily, how do we learn from the wonderful experience of the established communities that Ben was talking about? So, look at these temporary populations of cities. Let's get a few more questions. Any other comments? Yes. Thank you. I just want to add to that about migrants. So, if you look at the country like the United Kingdom at the moment, where you have seven sectors, where you're a shortage of workers, so they're pushing from other countries. And most people that bring their families, in most cases they are women and children, they're not access to public homes. Housing is very pricey, and they are finding themselves in difficult situations. So, it's the justice that when they come to serve as a technology, but they are finding themselves struggling to get accommodation. And if we're doing this, it would be great for them. So, we just want to turn to you. Any final comments from online? Any other comments? And yeah, I wonder, just picking up, I think we need to close the session, but those two points I think are at the heart of many of the issues that we are addressing. I mean, the first one around housing, justice and migrants and the issue that you're bringing up, I think, is a good lead to our next panel that we're going to be dealing with. But I think one aspect that for us has been quite interesting is how new set, how local governments, for example, have been able to be much more inclusive in terms of how they recognize sets of rights that goes beyond the citizens in recognition states and traditional citizenship rights. And I think there we found productive entry points to have that conversation of how we can operate with local governments to really engage with secure in the right hybrid set often are not recognized in many frameworks of the nation states. So I think that's, that's an entry point for us on the high rise. Yeah, I mean that's a long discussion but I think our colleagues here also Lucy and Beatrizio de Cali has been doing work in Johannesburg between architecture so frontier work of study as well, looking precisely on some of those challenges that's both structurally, but also socially of how to rehabilitate high rise buildings in inner city areas, but also the kind of possibilities to implement that incremental, let's say, urbanization processes that we often discuss for, for horizontal informal settlements and how can we adapt to those discussions and entry points to, to improve incrementally high rise building I think that is an agenda that is very interesting, both from a social perspective but also from a climate entry point, connecting to possibly debate around retrofit in a more inclusive way so I will stop here. And maybe we thank the panelists. Thank you for your engagement.