 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. I remember one caller in a BMW was there and my mate who got killed, his name was, he was a good geese, he was a proper village and I mean gamers, probably one of the gamest geese I've ever come across, I mean I've come across some gamebods. He had a big samurai sword and he just kept plunging the geese through the window, but like repeatedly like must have seen his arm come back about a good 50 to 60 odd times. And like I was thinking fuck you know we're going to get done on the murder charge. They've come into us, I've put this bottle straight through this geese, it's not straight away, I thought right I'm going to wear one of these badly firsts and set the tone, do you know what I mean for the day, so I've put this bottle through this geese's face but like right straight through, but like hard and it's all the glass was shattered into my hand, cut on my hand up, but his face is gone, he's gone like that, it's fucking screaming, he's run back into the melee, then my mate Dara's ironed one of them out next to me, so I thought like we're doing alright now, here we go, do you know what I mean, this is it, it's like I'm falling into a pan, but they've got about 40 geese in there, they're a good firm. And we're on, today's guest we've got Dante Hawkins, how are you brother? I'm good mate, how are you? Yeah, really good mate, really good. Seen a few of your documentaries, bit of a boy, football hooligan to now professional MMA fighter so we can see that you love fighting, how have you been? I'm alright mate, yeah I'm good, just trying to get ready for my next fight, just started literally training one to one sessions doing my tie, but I'm all good at them, everything's going well. Enjoying it? Yeah, really good. Seen your documentaries, football hooligan, violence, prison, but you've done a massive transformation, and also I met your mummy, an amazing woman, which will touch on the things that she does, they give back to the community, I love that stuff, but I'll go back to the start of my guest brother, where you grew up and how it all began? Yeah, so I grew up in Laban Grove, West London, where they have nothing no carnival, and yeah and I just grew up, my mum's obviously, you met her earlier, she comes from a Jamaican heritage, and my old man, he was a famous rock star, so obviously they met with each other, and back then I don't think, obviously my dad was English, he was white, and my mum was black, and I don't think back then that many people had seen a white fella with a black butt, especially around here, and my mum used to be a model as well, so I don't think people were too happy about it, she got a bit of stick for it and stuff, and obviously yeah, growing up around here, it was quite a lot of Jamaican heritage around here, this is where the first area where people come when the wind rush happened, Jamaicans come and landed, in England was around Nottingham Gate, Laban Grove is where the first race riots happened, and there was a road called All Saints Road, where there's a programme about it now on BBC, where that was like the front line, where all the first Jamaicans sort of used to get together and have their restaurants, and my granddad or father was a black panther, and they used to have a base on All Saints Road, back then one of the original. So your dad, he was a professional? Yeah, he was in a band with an Equal Bigido Dynamite II, and there was an off-branch from The Clash, so Mick Jones from The Clash was the lead singer, and they got like number ones all over the world. That's class, man. Yeah, yeah. How was your schooling? Schooling, that was a bit turbulent to be honest, so I went to a secondary school called Cardinal Vaughn, and it was quite difficult to get into, you had to sort of pass a few tests and what not, and it was a proper high level of education there, and I went there, but I was doing a little bit of, obviously the area that I come from is a lot of drug activity, gang activity, and I started, I was grafting a little bit of cannabis back then, and I can't remember exactly what happened, but I was doing a little bit in school as well, because obviously all the post-kids, they were loving a bit of smoking, a bit of weed in that, after school and whatever, so I saw there was a market to make a bit of dough at school, and one day I had gone into school, I had a conduct card for my report, because I was behaving badly, so I'd have to use to have to take my report card at the end of the day, or the start of the day and at the end of the day every day, and one of the bags of weed was in the conduct card, I've handed it over to the head a year, and he's opened up the conduct card and there's a bag of weed in there, so they expelled me for that, so obviously I ended up in an exclusion centre, and that was just like the wild west, you went in there, and going from there, in Cardinal Vaughn, I used to walk around with sticks and capes, like proper old school, they looked like they wanted to whip you, and it was proper, proper, like old school Victorian age type set up, and then going to there, there was kids, I walked in there, kids were jumping on the tables, telling their teachers to fuck off, all sorts of things, water's going on there, but then quickly you see, we're animals, aren't we? Do you know what I mean? You adapt into your environment, but three weeks later, I was doing exactly the same thing, do you know what I mean? So it was all the bad boys getting expelled under the same roof? Yeah, basically. Did your mum see it when you get expelled? She weren't happy, because obviously she grafted hard to get me into the school. She was going like, because it was a church school, she was at the church all the time, doing bits and pieces. She weren't happy at all, but she was proper upset, but then obviously, it is what it is, isn't it? I mean, she obviously stopped by me through it all, and when I went to that centre, they got me into another school in South London, and it was called, I think, Silesian College, it was in Battersea, and back then, I don't know if it's still the same, but back then there was a massive thing, like postcode areas from London, if you're from west or south, if you're from west or south, and gone to that school, and from the start, it was just like, oh, the Westboy, I was just literally, they kept calling me Westboy, I didn't even have a name, it was just Westboy Westboy, and it was just constant confrontation down there, I went in there a year ten as well, which is obviously you're going into a school in South London at year ten, it's probably not the best time to start if you're going to start in a school in a different manner, and then, I can't remember, something happened anyway, I think they said that someone from west London had stole someone's phone one day, and that they were searching everyone in the school from west London for this phone, and I said, I'm not searching me, fucking, and they said, a little party of boys had come up to me, and in arguments in the studio, I said, you ain't searching me, I don't care, in fact, it's all kicked off, and people were outside the school waiting if I can remember rightly, and whatever, and the school got wind of it, and they was like, call my mum in for a meeting, so we're coming for a meeting, and these times, my mum used to be her next model, so she was looking well when we was going to the school, and we were walking down the road to the school, and at some year elevens, a year above, I started wallfisting on my mum, I backed out of a police band, and I'd gone after them through the school, and that was the end of that school as well. So a bit of a loose cannon, then violent from a young age? Yeah. Where did that come from? How was your father? Was he angry, violent? Nah, my old man weren't really violent, he was obviously, his brother was an old footballer, who had taught them, like in the 80s and stuff, and he weren't really violent as such, but I suppose just growing up, growing up around Labour Grove, it's just, it's like a sink or swim in it, do you know what I mean? Yeah, he's a big fucking boy though, 6'4". 6'3". How was your height and weight then, young, were you starting to walk down? Yeah, I was still a big lump, but obviously, that brings on fucking ag, I think, it brings on more ag. People try to test you? Yeah, like obviously as well, I've got a little bit of a baby face on me, so people, people will try and test you because you're a big lump, or whatever, when you go out, someone will stick it on you because you're a big lump, and that's sort of how you have to make your bones, you know what I mean? You have to learn, every single swim, you have to learn how to defend yourself, otherwise you're just going to get fucking walked over, do you know what I mean? Did you eat fainting back then? I was just late, you said the same question. I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what, the first time, the first time I started probably getting into ag was when I had a pal of mine, for a good mate, I've considered him a good mate of mine at the time, he had an issue because some girl said I said something about him, which I hadn't, and he said, I wanted to have a straighter, and I was like, I don't want to fight you with my pal, I've considered him a good pal of mine. Come outside the block, and he's sort of steaming into me, and I've sort of covered up, and then I'm getting off, weighed in by the fella, and come home, and my mum and my sister are like, listen, you ain't nobody's cunt, are you letting someone fucking weigh you in like this? And I was saying, look, it's my pal, I didn't want to eat him. And then about two weeks later, I come out, had a straightener with him, done him, chased him out the road, and I was like, yeah, do you know what, I fucking, I enjoyed that, and I mean, I like that, that was, I turned the table, and I felt powerful, and I was like, do you know what, and then I realised that violence was probably the best form of defence, you know what I mean, especially when you're growing up in a manner, like, in any sort of world, there's always people that are going to arise, come up, if you're my size, or whatever, a big lump, or whatever, there's always altercations that are going to occur, and I found that through doing things, you made yourself more safe, because you made less altercations, altercations happen, because people would think twice about it, if you'd done something, 96 months before, a few months before, do you know what I mean? Yeah, because you've lost friends as well to murder, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. How old were you? 16 at the time, and my power was 17. Yeah, that was, that was a problem at a radio station around Adelaide Grove. A rival area, a different area, they weren't even really a rival area, I wouldn't say, we didn't really have that much of an altercation with them, but a few weeks before, there had been a problem at the radio station over two mob's, they're my powers, and this little firm clashing over it, like MCN, at a radio station called Leylo, and basically, they come down, and the argument ensued, and I think verbal's happened, but no fist or anything were thrown, and a few weeks later, they've come back down to the manual, and each crew would have a different set time at their go-to, so they'd come every Wednesday, or whatever, so they've come back down the following week, but this time they've come talled up to the nines, like with Michelle Eason, whatever, no shooters, just like knives, or whatever, and they're basically going off, they were just saying things like, I'll suck your mum, this and that, but like, where we come from, saying suck your mum's probably the worst thing that you can, might sound a bit trivial to some people, but it's the worst thing that you could probably say to someone around here, do you know what I mean? And basically, so we got wind of it, I was actually listening to the radio at the time, and I rang up my pass, I said, you heard this, on Nalo, and everyone's like, what? And so everyone switched on, got wind of it, and said, let's meet up, so we met up in an estate called Edward Woods, which is up to just, up the road from where my mum's house was, and got there and sort of everyone was all mobbed up, pulled up to the knives, and a slight samurai sword, big knives, machetes, whatever, I can't remember exact tools, but it was, there was an arsenal of weapons, and we'd gone down to Lalo where they was, and I remember the gate was locked, and the other side of this gate, and yeah, everyone started trying to climb the gate, to get over the gate, and I remember the gate just opened, I can't remember why it opened, but it did, someone opened it from the other side, and gone in there, and loads of them were flapped straight away, they started jumping on to the west way, which was above it, the flyover, and onto the traveller side that was next to it, and a few of them stood, and they've got done, one of them, I remember one carload of them in a BMW was there, and my mate, he got a killed pud, his name was, he was a good geese, he was a proper fellow, you know what I mean, probably one of the gamest geese that I've ever come across, you know what I mean, I've come across some gamebods, he had a big samurai sword, and he just kept plunging the geese through the window, but like, repeatedly, like, must have seen his arm come back about a good 50 to 60 odd times, and I was thinking, fuck it, we're going to get done on the murder charge, yeah, and he just kept fucking, but he was like, he weren't like, properly sticking it in, he was just like, preps in his body, he said, he was just bragging, nipping him here, but like constantly, but he just looked like, didn't look clever, you know what I mean, but the car got smashed up, we tried to then block their car, block their car from getting out, so they couldn't escape, and a few people in the car was getting done, the car got done, and yeah, and that was the end of that, like really, never really heard nothing more from it, but I know that one of the two of them was bad, and yeah, and then about a year, about a year or so later, there was a, I think it was a New Year's Party, a club called Egg Club in Kings Cross, mate, he's come back, seen him, they've dumped into each other in the club, they've had words, and sort of like, the geezer's come, chipped off and come back, and shot him five times on the night club, and killed him. How did that affect you? I don't know, I can't really remember properly, but he just, what I just thought was a bit, like, if you remember how it started, it was a point, like very pointless how it started, do you know what I mean? Just through words. Yeah, but then, as you get older, more things happen, you realise that's probably how most violent incidences occur mostly over, not much, do you know what I mean? So egos have been dented, just through words, and one altercation has led to another, but it's been, it's been death, and that can be difficult, especially if you're only 17 years old, because then, if you're fighting for a young age as well, you're always thinking the consequences, beef never really gets forgotten about, does it? It's never, people shake hands and that would still in the back of your mind, certain things can trigger certain things, like even friends taking the piss at you, or he'd done you a few years ago, he thinks that fucking right, and then before, you know what, you're retaliating years later. That's what I mean, this is what I mean, this is like, obviously, you know, you try and put a message across to youngsters and that, but like, I see it all the time, you know, like geese is coming through, they think that they are, they think they're the baddest, and I just think to myself, like, all my powers that were the hardest and the baddest murder charge, or their brown bread, do you know what I mean? And like fuck, and that's the only way it goes. You can be tough, like, do you know what I mean? I'm not saying all tough guys end up dead or whatever, but it's more likely, do you know what I mean? If you're, if you're like a serious gunman or a serious knife man, a lot of these youngsters are looking up to these boards, they end up, you end up, that's the road that you end up going down, do you know what I mean? End up serious bird or whatever, but, and like a lot of these rappers and stuff that are out there now, because everyone's, a lot of the, everyone's listening to rap music now, it's blowing up as in America, probably in the 90s, it's done, the UK rap scene is massive now. And like, everyone's listening to these rappers, but they ain't listening to, when they're doing their bit of time down the block, they're not, they're not talking about when they were sitting in the block and flipping screws or coming in with riot shells, beating the fuck out of them or next door just trying to kill themselves or people are getting dragged in rooms, beaten, fucking, shit protest are happening, do you know what I mean? Fucking, you're at the end of, you're at the end of your Tevo down there and like, like your big artists and men are breaking down there. They're not, they're not saying about that in their rap tunes. So they're glamourising their lifestyle to kids, but they're not really, there's two sides to the other coin, do you know what I mean? Do you know where I'm coming from? And it can't be difficult if you've got a reputation or if you've been a trigger man or whatever you've done in the past, then because you've got pure straight ego, you've got that reputation, you're a bad man, so you never want to have it dented, you've always got to step up to the plate. That's the only way, there's always going to be somebody coming through the ranks bigger or better, more nastier through the years, you would have seen it yourself especially still being young only for the one that you've been through, it was, and you've tried to make a name for yourself at an early age, finding the biggest, but again, once you got older as well, there's going to be somebody like you, 10, 15 years ago who you probably think, little cunt, I'll show you, and before you know it, again, you're in that body bag or you're doing a live sentence. Of course, you know what I mean? And that's the thing, you know what I mean, even me, if I go out to a club or whatever, you know, someone that's like, so you've got to remain, not looking for it, but you've got to remain fit and strong and ready just in case it ever does arise, you know what I mean? And that's an issue that you've always got to deal with, because even if you, no one's going to think, oh, he's 35 now, he's got a couple of kids he don't want, he don't want no act. That don't work like that, does it? That don't work like that, doesn't it? People look for weakness, they look for you to drop your guard because you constantly on alert, no matter where you go, no matter if you've changed your life and you're doing MMA and you're front pro, you're on alert. I feel like, I don't know, I think, I don't know if that sounds stupid to say, but like, you know, like, like they say, our soldiers have got like, what's that, PD, is it PDSD? But like, when I go into a gaff, like, even for my, like, for when I was younger, I'd go into a gaff and I wouldn't think, like, walk into a place, like, I can tell his unicorns, like, keep an eye on him, keep an eye on him, wear the nearest weapon that I can use if it does, if it does go off. I'm not thinking, like, that's the first thing that I'm thinking, I'm making a risk assessment of potential violence and what potential weapons can be used. I don't think that's normal, do you know what I mean, like, if it's normal to me, like, because I'd think like, that's right, that's like, I've ticked off the fuck, the safety risk assessment when I walked into it, go, that now I've learned there's a vibe, a sense, like, because you always get a sixth sense that it's going to go off. Yeah, a little bit of thing, like, yeah, I can feel there's a bad vibe tonight. Is it you though, you're talking about? I don't know. Do you know what I mean? You just get that vibe that you're wanting something to pop off. It could be, but then I've noticed that if I feel that vibe now, I'll just slip. Yeah. Just to avoid it. What age did you start getting out of football? Hooligans and stuff? Football stuff. Football stuff, I must have been about, the first incident was about 14. That's young. Yeah, but I didn't really, I weren't really improper in the mix it was just sort of like me running, because back in the day, when I was younger, Tottenham used to just go off, like every big game it would go off on the hype, there'd be hundreds of geysers out there, just, and it was like, compared to now, there's things changed a little bit, there's a lot of divs about now, you go there now and there's a lot of wallies floating about, back then it was just proper like, men, you know what I mean, like, all that naughty smart bars everyone just, maybe it's because I was younger, but everyone just looked like they was bang up for it, do you know what I mean? And nowadays, there's a lot of, there's scenes change a little, but there's still like hardcore elements with even firms, but there's a lot of people that just go addressing all the gear, but he actually, Yeah, exactly, all the gear and no idea, do you know what I mean? So what has changed? Do you think the films, the films played a part in that though? Yeah, probably, yeah. And obviously the old bulls, the old bull have got a thing against football, where they just, they just go after them, it's an easy target, you know what I mean? A lot of lads, they get pissed up, they throw a few punches on the camera, and the old bull of football, they just, for one punch, they're trying to give you two, three years. People have got mortgages and whatever, and the proper people end up slipping off and thinking, swerve this, you know what I mean? Like, Tottenham and West Dam had a round in 2009 at Myland, and it's not even a puncher's thrown, the old bull were in between it, verbals and a few bottles thrown either way. Everyone, they got birded, about 60 geese must have got birded. Like, for not even a puncher, but that has a trickle down effect on both firms, because if they think, oh, we can get birded if we're out throwing a punch, then like, do you know what I mean? Flipping. Just association now? Yeah, now people are like thinking now, people who would have gone normally are thinking, I've got a house, I can't risk it anymore, do you know what I'm saying? When did you start moving through the ranks then before? Yeah, so about, probably when I was about 1918, I was coming up through the ranks, doing a few, a few things, had a few rounds, but I got banned pretty early, I got banned when I was at 17 for starting a master and starting Cardiff at home, and I got nicked and I actually got, I was in court on the day of my daughter's, daughter's born, and I had to rust through the court case, I was in Hammersmith, youth offending court, and I had to rust back to the hospital, which was on Duke, came rolling, shipped his bush to get there to get there in time for my daughter's birth, but so I always remember my ban started on the day of my daughter's birthday. How long was the ban? It was a three year ban. Do you think that was a sing from the gods? I don't know. Get your shit together, you've got a new ban here. Mate, do you know what it was? I'll tell you what, they see the ban in all this, I don't know, it was a bit of a, it was a bit of a ban, if anything. An extra stripe? Yeah, it was a bit like, you know when they used to give kids Asbo's, and they'd be like, he's got an Asbo, he's almost like it was like an identification thing, it was like an extra, extra strap. Can you still get into the games though, when you were banned? They were just red-ot, like they just knew, like from straight away, they knew your dress, they probably knew my shoe size, they was like, a couple of them, like one called Richardson, he was actually, he was actually a jock as well. He was one of your ones. Yeah, I mean, this guy's a greasy Richardson, mate, he had, I don't know, it's like, he's one of these coppers who I just used to think, I think he used to go out and just ignore his misses and just sit there, just watching pictures of us, because he knew everybody, and he wouldn't let up, he'd like, we had a row, we had a row with Polk Smith in Waterloo Station, and it was a young one, he smashed the granny out of him, and they, they, they was, I was with one of my, one of the main Tottenham O'Lough geese called Swayny, and he was walking into this, walking into this, into the station, and I remember, I remember walking into this, I always thought, I was going home, but we're leaving, and the boys have ended up barking up, these pompy lot outside, and Polk Smith were getting run into the station, they were getting done into the station, me and Swayny were in the station, I was like, what's all that commotion? And they've come run into the station, and flipping, as they're getting run into the station, I can hear them going, Stan, Polk Smith, Stan, it's only Tottenham, and I've gone only Tottenham, I say, we're fucking here, you can't, bang, going into him from behind them, and my mate Swayny's gone, stop, and he's gone, look, there was cameras all over the gaff, oh, Bill coming, I thought, you pulled me away, all of them not coming, and absolutely ironed them out, just cleaning the floor, it was the FA Cup semi-final, and yeah, anyway, slipped off, I thought you saucy counts, only Tottenham. You look like happy, bro, when you speak about it. Mate, do you know what it is? I'll tell you what, I went away for it, but at the same time, going away for it was bad times, but then, when I was doing, when I was going active, it was some of the funnest times, like, the buzz that I was used to get from it, it was just some of the best days, some of the best days, and then the comrades shipped my mates, and some of my best mates, the best people that I've met, were down there, proper good people, you know, and coming from a, you know, I used to look at it like this, coming from a man that I come from, like, if I put 20 quid on the table, 20 grand on the table, and left the room, and went out to the shops, there weren't many buzz that I could really come back and say, oh, that 20 quid would still be there, but at football, there was a lot of buzz that I could name, that I could leave that 20 quid on the table, go to the shops and come back, and it'd still be there, and for me, that sense of loyalty and comradeship was, meant a lot to me, do you know what I mean, because in a, in a world that you come from, where a lot of people are snakey, do you know what I mean? Do you know what I'm saying? Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. How was it then, what was your first proper tear up, what was the buzz like for you? Yeah, the buzz was like, the first proper, proper one. Were you scared? Nah, because it was probably, I wasn't really scared, it was probably Arsenal, we played Arsenal in a cup, and they come in a boozer, and we scored, we had our back turn, we couldn't get into the ground, we tried to double up to get into the ground, and we had our back turn to watching the screen, and they've come through and attacked us from behind. A few people got decked, and I've seen one of them drop on the floor, and I'm actually ironed them out with this barstool, and cut his whole head open. One of his two of his mates had tried to come and drag him out, and I was doing them with the barstool on their back, and another geezer called my mate Parma, he's a big fellow with big hands and that, he was just ironing people out, he's just, you know one of them geezers, he just decks people, wherever he lands on, he's decking them, do you know what I mean? There was a few other boards in there that could have a route, and they ended up coming unstuck, but there was only about a handful like ten of us, and they got done on that, but it was just, there was no time to really be scared, it was like, it was just so, so fast, and it was like, you know, we're getting, we're getting done here, do you know what I mean? You have to quickly come in, come into action, like it wasn't really a thing where we, there's other routes that I've come to where you turn up and there's a mob in front of you, and it's like you're walking into, and that's the time where you have time to think about being scared and that, do you know what I mean? I had a, we had a route with them, we've all went to Wanderers, and I ended up becoming best mates with their main geezer after, he's a lad called Denny, and me and him lock horns in that route, and we had a little tow-to-tow, and we ended up becoming best mates off of it, which is fucking convenient. So how does that, does that happen? Is that a loose? Yeah, do you know what it is? Do you know like, like this particular route that we had with them, we've, Lutentown had a little firm, and their little young lot used to come to Spurs, and they, we used to get on with them, there's a lot of Tottenham fans that come from Bedfordshire and other little counties around London, so we used to have a friendship with them and they used to come with us, used to being sort of like 10, 15 young lot to our games in that, and we used to have a lad called Bats that was running their little young lot, and I used to be powers of him and whatnot, and anyway, they was playing Wolves, and I knew a few Wolves lads, and obviously we got it all, we got it all organised, and it was all off the grid from the old building, far, far away from the ground, and Wolves were like, yeah, yeah, we're coming here, we was in this, I bought about 10 of my Tottenham young lot, come up, so there's about 10 of us, there's about 20, 25 Lutent in this boozer, and about half the Lutent lots said that, the older Lutent lads, we were like, we was younger, they was a bit older, in their 29, 30, and they was like, oh, we've heard that they're somewhere else, we're going. So I was like, nah, nah, nah, I said, I know they're coming, they're coming, do you know what I'm saying? They're like, nah, nah, nah, they're somewhere else, we're off. So they've slipped, so I'm thinking, fuck it, our numbers dwindled by about half, and all their mobbers coming, do you know what I mean? So I was thinking, what are we going to do now? Do you know what I mean? So we thought, fuck it, we've got what we've got here, there's about 20 of us there, whatever, and we just got a run with it. And I remember, so we were walking up, so we were in the town, so we were walking up to a boozer closer to where they've got to come to, get off the rattler. And yeah, so we're walking up there, and we all split up into fives, and then the next thing I got a call from someone saying, they've just come off the train, but we all split up into fives to get to these spots where we didn't attract attention from cameras or whatever, walking up the road, and they come off the train, so I'm like, yeah, and my mates, who was on the phone and said, they're a fucking good mob, there's all their bots, so I was thinking, fuck, there's like four groups of five split up, and we don't even know where everyone is, there's shambles, but it was like, it just sort of come together just at the right time, so they were not coming out at the station, walking up this road, and we've now sort of like managed to get about 15, 16 of us together now, we're on like a road, parallel to the road that they're on, and there's a little alleyway that can lead to where they are, so someone said, oh, they've through this alleyway, so we've gone through this alleyway, and I could tell everyone was getting a bit, a bit nervy, you know what I mean, and I'm going fucking, this lad that I was with, he had a bit of, like a bit of wood that he had picked up, I said, get that to me, you fucking get it to me, he's like, no, no, no, he wouldn't give it to me, I'm not having a toss with him, I was like, I'm not thinking, why are you going to take that bit of backflip, if anyone's going to use it, it's going to be me, he didn't give it to me, so I've gone, I can't fuck it, so everyone said, look, live, and I said, we can do these, I was going, we can do these, and it's like, everything about any type of violence is all psychological, I think mostly, 90% of it is psychological, someone said that to me when I was younger, and I think it's very true, and like, they were always coming out that alleyway, and I was going, we can do these, I was like, we can fucking do these, I was like, we can do these, I feel like I might have been half convinced of myself. I looked around, I looked around, and everyone was proper young, I was thinking, we're going to get turned over and see who can do that. I was like, fuck it, we can do this, so we were coming through this alleyway, and as we've come out of this alleyway, I've looked to the end of the road and they just filled the road up and turned to us, so they was walking going the opposite way, and I've gone away, I said, we're here. I turned around, I said, what happened to yourself? I said, come on, get out of the fucking alleyway, so we're coming up the road now, and they're all coming down the road, and I picked out one of my little powers before. I picked out one of my little powers before. I picked out one of my little powers before, his name's Thara, and I said, today you're the man, I said, I knew you was a game little youngster, I said, just stick by me, I said, you'll make yourself into a legend today. I said, stick by my side anyway, come out of the alleyway, he's by my side, right there, I thought, yeah, that little speech, that little two little second prep talk, it done it nice, so we come out of the road, and straight away, they've come into us, I've put this bottle straight through this geese, it's not straight away, I thought, right, I'm going to hurt one of these badly first, and set the tone, do you know what I mean for the day? So I put this bottle through this geese's face, but like, right, straight through, but like hard, and it's all the glass was shattered into my hand, like that's fucking screaming, he's run back into the, into the melee, then my mate Dara's ironed one of them out, next to me, so I thought, we're doing all right, there we go, this is it, it's unfolding to me, but they've got about 40 geese's in there, they're a good firm, and then like, what we're doing, they're coming in, we're doing them, as everyone's coming, there's six of us, every time one of them come forward, six of us are just going, bang, bang, bang, we're banging them back, running back into the crowd, another one will come forward, but then in the end, it just started, six, seven minutes in, they started to sort of come, where the tide was turning slightly, and I thought, because we was bashing them for about six minutes, and then like, one of their main, nice, is Denny, lad, I've turned, and I'm on the one side of the road, and I've looked, and I can see like, fucking, our boats on that side are struggling against this one geese, I thought, who's this, and they're going, don't they, help, so I'm going, what, just like, help, I knew, I knew I should have had that back, and like, from the start, I just knew, you should just give me that back, I don't know how this wolves geese has ended up with his back, he's moving to them, he's going, bang, bang, lacing them up, and they're getting hurt, like, badly on that side, so I've come over there, me and them are squared up, he's fucking whacked me with about, I've whacked him back, and we're growling, and he's frothing each other, and he's just gone off again, bang, we've all gone into each other, and then like, the old bull siren started coming, but he was edging it towards the end, because like, you know, I mean, but for the first six minutes, we was doing them, so, call it what you want to call it, I want to call it a draw, but fucking, I don't know, at the end they fucking, one of them said, look the old bill had come in, they're all like, shake hands, we've gone to turn and walk off now, and they've sort of done another attack from behind, and we've got a fucking bit done up the road a little bit, like, a few bricks behind the head and whatever, but, I've done everything they can really claim that. How does it end though, is that how it ends, or is it a case of either the police coming chasing, and then they turn away? This is the problem, this is the problem, you see like, if the old bill start coming, it's like, you can turn to run, because the old bill are coming and end up getting done, so it's like, I mean, if you stay too long, you're not getting nicked, so it's a catch-22, do you know what I mean? But I'd rather get nicked and done, to be honest with you. How long does a proper tear up last, between two good funds? There's no, there's no bill. Ten minutes, ten minutes, ten minutes. That's a lot though. It's a long time. Do you know what I mean, people just 30 seconds, 60 seconds, I'd have to look over your shoulder. Is it just a Royal rumbo, three for all? No, do you know, like it can be, but then it's like, you can have rounds where it's a bit set to, like bang, a few bots come forward, a few bots, do you know what I mean? Like, a lot of the rounds that I've been involved in, it's been a few bots come forward, three or four, five, and you normally, it's the same geese at the front, you know? It's normally the same bots holding it together. What happens if somebody's there with you and they turn away and run? Is that named out? Yeah, they'll be gone, do you know what I mean? If you go, you're going as a group, I've seen, I've been there before, I've seen people bolt, and like, do you know what I mean? It's just like, because I look at it like, I'll take it personal, wouldn't it? Personally, like, because I'm looking at it like, do you know what, I'm a mixed race lad in a quite, it's quite, a lot of these firms are quite racist, like, and to them, like, I might as well be as dark as Frank Bruno, even though my mom's, my dad's white, my mom's black, they're trying to hurt me, you know what I mean? And you're meant to be my power and they want to turn me if we don't stick together, like, and one of us gets done, it's because it's because we end up together, so it's like, for me, I take it personal, do you know what I mean? Who's the baddest fucker you've ever came up against? What, a firm or? A firm, yeah. Oh, fucking, the best fighter, I don't know, the best fighter I had was with Wolves, that particular, that was the best fight, and, probably some of the, I don't know, the firms that I rate, like, I've seen Stokes, Stokes are good, Middlesborough are good, West Ham's old, a lot of good, they're younger, a lot of shit. Like, they're younger, we've walked all over, we've terrorised, they're young. Because I've had big bars barring tonight, and he is a lump as well, he is a machine. Do you know what, I've never had it, do you know what, I've never had it with Azuli, but I heard good things about her. He's a good guy, man, love big bars, and he misses three, so two good people, but, even when he speaks about it, there's like a twinkle in his eye, he must just love fucking violence. Do you know what it is? It's, I'll tell you what, it's more, it's not, I've been involved in a different, a lot of different arenas of violence, you know what I mean? I've had more pub fights, and probably I've had shipping roast dinners, right, you know what I mean? But, they're not quite a lot like MMA fights, or whatever, it doesn't compare to the same buzzers, kind of football like, there's nothing, I can't explain it, even if I had a 10 on 10 with my mates in a boozer on a Saturday night, it's the same sort of thing, but it ain't the same. How was it, if people were getting plugged, if you were having people not rules like, no objects, or is that a few? Do you know what it is? Do you know what it is? You see, I just find it's just pub, any tools that are in a pub is fair game. Like, like, you know what I mean? Cheers, cheers, cheers. Do you know what I mean? Like, come on, look at that, when they go, like, when they're England playing and they're all throwing their cheers and I don't really rate that at all, but it's, it's what happens when they go abroad and that, like, but that's what they're doing, that they throw all the cheers and that, they're going into each other, do you know what I mean? How's, how's Tottenham getting an Aberdeen connection? So the Aberdeen connection comes from Aberdeen, Aberdeen, Aberdeen, Aberdeen lads were working in London and then back, I don't know, back in the day, back in the old school days and then, yeah, they, they was working in London doing building work so they started coming and then Tottenham started going up there and then that was like a link between their firms and it's just, they were like, they've got multiple flags together and then, they're going up there versus Brighton. So Aberdeen were playing Brighton you know, in the pre-season friendly and they organised going up there four different trains and that and then, yeah, flipping, going up there, about a hundred, about 80 to 100 of us were up there but, we've, we've, I've, I've been, I was on the phone too for a little while trying to get, get it sorted with them and I knew that Brighton had a little firm that were up for it because it's like, you know what it is, they've got small towns like your Pompeys, Port Portsmouths, your Southamptons, your, your Brightons, you know what I mean, they, they don't sound like the biggest harvest but they'll have it, you know what I mean, like, like, they'll, they'll, they'll just gain for it, you know, like, they've got all these small towns around them and not these small towns, like, they like, they fight a lot on them, all they've got to do on a Saturday, especially like when you go, even, what, what are they going to do, right? So, so they come out and they have a, they, they go out on a night out and they, they have a tough, they're all tough men, you know what I mean, they're not, they're not dickheads, so you go to these places and you think, oh, you're playing some small little team and it ends up fucking, they end up, you end up coming against 20 geezers who drink with each other week in, week out, who will back each other till the end, you know what I mean, whereas you might get, you know what I mean, you might get the city teams from up north, from the Midlands, from Kent, from Enfield, you know what I mean, all parts of England, so they're not really drinking with each other every week, so it's not, there's much of a bond, you know what I'm saying. Was that the first thing you got the deal? You got a sentence for that? Yeah, I got a sentence for that, so I got a sentence for two things, I got a sentence for Chelsea, Tottenham and they're probably our biggest rivals, Chelsea and I got a sentence for Brighton and in the Brighton round, we, I'll, I'll talk to you about both, both the ones I've been birded, birded from, but both, but both the Brighton round, it was organised on an, on an estate, we got, we got to this estate and only 17 of us got there, about 17 and called it on, more, more lads were supposed to be coming, called it on, they turned up my mate, John Daniel, he's walked down here and he's like, they're here, they're here, they're here, they're here, they're here, they're here, and I thought, fucking hell, they're coming up the road, they're just, you look coming or what, and they said, yeah, yeah, we're five minutes away round the corner, but I've heard it so many times, like, literally I've heard Chelsea, West Ham, whatever, everyone away, he says, yeah, yeah, we're here, and then they say, oh, the old bill of captured us, whatever, it never happens, like, or it does happen, but really, so I thought, yeah, yeah, whatever, okay, they're on top of us and there's about 50, 60 of them and then I'm running this pool cue and I had a, again, I had a bottle, another bottle as well and he's flew into the skis of a pool cue, the kids are like, put the pool cue down and Danny's gone, all right, then put the pool cue down, the kids are steamed into Danny, then picked his pool cue, picked the pool cue up and then my other mate broke his arm with the pool cue, I said to Danny, were you giving him the pool cue for, that was like, schoolboy era, like, don't give up the tool, you know what I mean, don't ever give up the tool, but like, yeah, my mate got his arm broken by the tool, he was dead, our fucking, stabbed the Brian Geese in the back of the head with a broken bottle, done him and they ended up running after that and then they regrouped, he ended up getting his head cut quite badly at the back and it's quite funny because we went to, we ended up in jail together for it and I ended up cutting the Geese's ear and just cutting over his ear and that's fucking, in his ear, like, what the fuck, how'd you end up with that scar? He's gone, over the fucking, over the scar, there's a big gash of fucking, trusted you to do it. Yeah, sorry, but yeah, that's fucking mad, yeah, cut his ear and it's going over his scar, there's quite a big scar. Were you thinking, man, I could give him that again? I was just thinking, what a day, I think you're all blind now, but I ended up getting nicked at the scene there because we was running from the old bill and everyone's split up in different directions and I've run into this, run out the road with my mate, Stevie D, who's all blind, like, I've had the pleasure of, like, being next to and around, like, game is fucked, like, game is you like, you ain't moving, Stevie D, and me and him have end up together and we've got in this taxi driver, but we just, when we was moving hot, you know, we'd been in a fight for 10 minutes, there was blood, fucking sweat, and got into this taxi driver and it's just going, drive, drive, drive, like he was having some sort of fucking getaway drive out of a bank robbery, the keys is just fucking, I've seen old bill threw his keys out of the car and gone, help, help, fuck, you know, yeah, we got nicked, we got put in boiler suits, they took all our clothes and yeah, fucking, but I thought it was going to be sweet because I thought there's going to be no cameras. I thought, there's no way, like I said, we had a look, there's no cameras and really with that, you need to get your nailed on, you need to be even nicked right at the scene or camera evidence. Anyway, fucking, about a couple months later, my mates gone to, gone to a court case to do a West Dam, and on the court case evidence, they had the Brighton DVD, and I've gone, he's gone, there's a DVD for Brighton, I'm going, surely not, I said, there's no cameras. So I'm thinking, nah, I said, I looked like there's no cameras, like they couldn't have been like a little eye in the sky. I thought, nah, nah, nah, they can't be like, so I, anyway, the DVD is up coming out, the keys are, literally, how's your luck, fucking keys, professional cameraman has got a tripod, put it on his fucking back and then film the last five minutes. Couldn't believe it. Why did you get for that? Well, we got about two years and I've got two years, something, the Brighton lads got a year less, because they give us all a year longer, because we're gone, we're gone out of our way to go to a convene game that weren't nothing to do with us, and, and that fucking, yeah, it's a bit, it's unfortunate though, but I couldn't believe it, the keys are give a truffle, mate. What's the chances? What's the, and it's not, we picked this area because it was a moody place, you'll be alright there, there's no cameras, like no one will give a fuck, it's on some cancerous state in Brighton, they're more interested in flipping smack heads or whatever up there. See, that's the thing though, everybody with their phones and cameras, put it on social media. Yeah, I didn't expect a tripod, though. It was a bit of a fish, it was a bit of a, it was like HD, but, but yeah, they done us for that and then, at the same time, I kind of was, was causing so much egg, but I think the old belated me, like they just, they couldn't understand me, do you know what I mean, like, and it's causing so much, I was like, not gonna lie, it's a proper little terror, like, I was like, fuck it, I got put away 21, but it all come to a head when I was about 19, with all the cases, took a little while to unfocus, there's quite a few people in the case, but I got done for three cases, I got done for the George Arsenal, maybe smashed up one of their boozers and I got done for Chelsea, where I got caught, where they found DNA with, with a bag full of axes and hatchets and knives, baseball bats, and they basically said that we was planning to seriously, this Chelsea mob, which, and, yeah, it was, yeah, yeah, I was, like, they was out on the road and in the incident occurred, years before, where a few people have been stabbed, like, and obviously a row has occurred and a few people have stabbed this row and no one, like, sort of never got run on, I think, but this was, this was, it was like a few, a few bottles of that because they had turned up with all the cutlery, so they had come out on the road with all the cutlery, taught them, taught them to their ground, a few people have got stabbed and my, my, my feeling behind it was that, alright, sweet, I don't think we got done there, but a couple of my mates had been stabbed and they had been stabbed with all the blood screaming and he was, he was, but I was like, even so, they, like, I don't, I think that after all that retribution needs to be served and I mean, they need to start, something needs to happen back because at the end of the day, it's an hour for an hour two for a two for life, they do that and you've got to react back to it in the same, in the same manner, do you know what I mean? And, yeah, so they, they, they said they was coming over they were supposed to come to a certain area, they went to a different area about two miles up the road and we've all met and then, and I remember just, I remember just looking around and I was thinking that this, that day I remember thinking, yeah, this, someone's going to get properly done today and I, I wanted to know really for playing about that day, like, I just, which I kind of like, back in hindsight, when I look back at it now, I feel like, thank God, they're wrapping. You were going to kill someone that day? Yeah, I was going to get put away that day for, you know what I mean? Was that, to rise your reputation to be involved with Tottenham? Or was it just you being violent? You know, it wasn't, it wasn't even nothing to do with this, it's just that my mates at Tottenham, at that Pacific time, I still love everyone at Tottenham, they've always been my pals, but at that Pacific time, I was so engrossed in it all, that like, fucking, I thought like, you know, like, this is going to happen today, this is going to happen properly, like, you know what I mean? I would have done anything to, like, protect Tottenham's reputation. At that Pacific time, that's where my mind space was at that time. Now, I'm in a completely different head space, but I was like 19, 20, whatever, how old I was. It's very young. What's it like when you get a sentence, as the, the beef put a save, with thumbs and save presents? Well, the funny thing was, the funny thing was, this is the funny thing, like, I've been, I've ended up in Joe. Like, I just, like, Chelsea, like, the reason behind me hating Chelsea so much, and I'd like, really dislike him, just like, proper dislike him. Like, they've done something to my old dear dislike him, do you know what I mean? And it's, the reason why it all started was because, obviously, they've come on the phone to me when I was about 18 or 19, and they've gone, obviously, my dad's, my dad's half Jewish, and my mum's Jamaican. They've come on the phone to me, and they've gone like, like, you're the, like, he's paying them, they go, you're the worst sort. And I said, what do you mean, you're the worst sort? You're not just, you're not just a fucking Jew, and I was like, yeah, these are proper, like, they're not just, they're not just your normal racist that you come across where the old man doesn't want his thought of a black fella. These ain't them sort of, but these are proper, like, they're like, I could feel the venom of hatred through his phone, and I thought, yeah, do you know what, I fucking hate you as well, do you know what I mean? And that's when I started looking, they got a lot of links to Combat 18, which was, I don't know if you remember about them, like, they're like a quite far-right organisation that used to, since the terrorism started happening, but yeah, they had like strong links to them, so like they got, they're not, they're a bit more serious than your average day, like, racist, do you know what I mean? So they, and they hated Tottenham because Tottenham is quite a multicultural firm, they had a few Jewish lads within the firm, but they got Muslim lads, Tottenham's a multicultural firm, you've got Turks, Greeks, Jews, fucking Jamaicans, Rasta, you've got Rastafarians that wear Rasta hats at Tottenham, do you know what I mean? And it's just a multicultural firm, and they disliked Tottenham because of that. And the maddest thing is as well, what I don't understand is Chelsea have got quite a few black lads who really are some of their best lads who go and I just think, I just, it's like, I don't understand it, because they've got such a hardcore racist element, but they've got these black lads who go and they're alright, do you know what I mean? And they see them as they, because they're alright, fucking he comes, he's sweet, he's not like the rest of them or whatever, do you know that sort of mentality? And they still go there, but he started building up like that and then a couple of older lads that I had, I looked up to a geezer called Martin as he quite a lot at Tottenham. And he was, he was like the main older face when I was going, he was active, and he despised them. Like, he was from South London and his little crew were out of South London, most of them, and they used to fucking have murders with them all the time. Like, they'd be somebody from proper, like proper rows, like the Lord Burley, the Vauxhall Bridge, flipping the Parsons, Green Row, all these different rows that they was having, and like, for some reason, they just had a personal vendetta. Like, and they just used that and it rubs off on you. When you're hearing it week in, week out, fucking this, fucking that. It rubs it, it starts to, starts to get onto your head and then obviously, I just, yeah, it just, it just becomes like more, it just becomes a bit more like, I didn't like, I disliked West Dam, I disliked Arsenal, but I hated them for some reason. I grew up in West London as well. So, round loads of Chelsea and Coup, you are my whole life, you know what I mean? Well, when you get out of prison, what were you thinking? You're just wanting straight back involved, that's what I'm talking about. Well, the rules were out, the rules were out, straight after I got out of prison. I was on tag. So, it was like, I said I wasn't going to get involved and then I did and then it's like, it's only took, it took me to get involved with MMA to stop, I started doing the hit, mixed martial arts, to stop going. I thought, do you know what, it's just going to end up going, going West, but I had so many bans on me and restrictions where I couldn't go places. Yeah. That like, I like, I was banned from most of London at one point. It was just nuts. We see, obviously, you've got fucking potential to do what you can do. We see, you're the real deal, but they never say, look, this ain't a life. Look, how was the old school, was it Mark Carpell and stuff? Yeah, Mark Carpell was like, he was like, he was a bit like a mental for me, you know what I mean? He's like, he's a proper legend, I would suppose. He's like, I used to hear stories about Mark from like, from when I was flipping 14, I used to think, I didn't even know it was because he was always living abroad quite a lot, but obviously he's like, he's that little legend you know what I mean? And he, when he come back into the country, he took me down to a boxing gym with a geezer called Don Charles, he was Derek Tazora's coach and started me boxing with Don Charles, which sort of took me, so I started taking boxing quite seriously. So obviously he took me down there and just got, I got a lot of love for him and he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a nut, he's proper. Yeah. I used to hear stories about him, like flying all the way, I don't know like how true they are, but just, he just, they was causing absolute murders out there. Like, Tottenham was the first team to take the, take the, well, one of the first, I don't know the first team, but first one of the first teams to take it abroad to, to Europe and they went into final to end and yeah, a few fellas were trying to, not going to say names, but trying to, trying to throw people off bridges, doing rounds and that. The Turkish mob look Galatasaray, they're not actually they are proper, they're Italian mob. But if any other thumbs are. Yeah. I went with Tottenham once, I snuck out there when I weren't supposed to be out there. Went to my land and got a row, but I didn't really rate them. We'd come down, got into their main boozer and we were left 10 minutes for the end, got into their main pub. That was where they were, where all their geese were meant to be drinking and they was, had all their alters there before the game. When they were after the game, 10 minutes for the end, got in there, Tottenham scored, Peter Kraut scored, got into the boozer and we put like the Tottenham English flag on the, on the window and my mate was like, standing at the door going, I was winning his only, you're not allowed in here. On their pub. There's only 10 of us. We had the only English fans that were out. Everyone else was locked in the ground. They looked to all the Tottenham fans inside and I was thinking, wait, this is going to come mad on top. This is going to come on top and I was thinking, fuck it, this is what we're coming for, do you know what I'm saying? They're just more and more people are coming and the barman was like, he could tell he was one of their boys. He was not happy about us being there. And he's gone, now it's time to go. And I looked him off, what are you, fucking babies? He's gone, now you leave. You guys finish your drinks. And I looked outside of my mate, Martin, as his brother, Clive, he's another, another game, game is above. He's, he's busted the door and he's gone outside of, like a punch has been thrown and he's got all that off back tough and I'm just going, fuck it, I said these cunts don't want it, come steaming out and gone straight into them and they just all run off and they just run off on the road and then we walked to the station and I thought this is going to come on top walking and I thought they've got a regroup, but they never come. I just don't think they had, they weren't the best firm. They never really had the asshole for it. They just, you could just tell they just thought these, these English boys are nuts, you know what I mean? But like you, you're Eastern European teams and you're German teams and whatnot. They're, they're all training to fight now. So it's a bit of a different Polish. Yeah. And I was like, Bodz are going out there to like, Bodz are, Tottenham are going out to like Europe and like a couple of times if they've had, they've had altercations and everyone, do you know what, everyone hates Tottenham. They're like, they're doing that, do you know what I mean? And it ain't, it ain't because fucking, because of the football, because of the shit. Because of the football. So it's got to be setting goals, do you know what I'm saying? And they just, just, like we, like everyone was jumping on this or Tottenham got a few punts back to Europe. I'm sitting there like, I'm going, I'm banned, I'm not allowed to go to Europe. I'm sitting there going, punts back to Europe. What are you talking about? I was like, we, we's the first team to take it to Europe. I said, like we're fucking, we've been one of the, probably one of the top three firms in England for fucking however long. Like without a doubt. Who has the top three? You're not like saying? It's argue, but everyone will have their own opinion, but I'd say, I'd say, I'd say in the, in the mix of the top five, you've got, you've got a lot of respect, Birmingham, Tottenham. Aston Villa got respect that. I used to hear people speak about them years ago. People got, like they got an element, they do, they do this, but I feel like Zulu's got more, like, um, Borra, I rate Borra a lot, a stoke. Yeah, I think Baz says Borra as well. Yeah, Borra got some big geysers on her phone, like big guy, they all look like they flipping porridge every day on breakfast. They thought, yeah, they all been doing awesome. They're some good for like, United will always turn up. I don't think they're, like, they're not the best for them, but they always turn up places. Uh, Everton are probably better, but a lot better than Liverpool. Like, there's a few different Millwall. They've got that, Millwall, I tell you things in Millwall, yeah, I rate their boards, I know them personally. Everyone's always banging about Millwall, Millwall. I remember we've got probably the most nuts, like, they've got the best, like, geyser for geyser, man for man, they've got the most bots, but they don't do enough of it and I just think it's because they've got such a big reputation that no one will meet them off the grid as much. Is that right? Do people back off? Yeah, people, they've got a massive reputation, haven't they? And they're more of a firm that go places more banded. And I think that day and age is done. Like, you've got to be like, we was more of a mob, we've done things like, you, I'd rather let them, people go somewhere, Tottenham go somewhere underhanded and 20 of us peel off and let them go with the old bill and we just slip through the net, like, undetected and just go the proper way the whole way. What's the biggest tear-up you've ever had? How many people from Tottenham and another firm? Probably just, probably around, probably about a hundred geese in total involved in a row. That's a lot though. Yeah. Have you ever punched anybody from your own firm when it's kicked off? Not meaning it. I have, yeah. I have. I have. To me, I've done that to one of my, one of my, one of my pals, one of my little young lot, and he fucking, I thought bad about it after. But I didn't know who he was, and he's game, he's game as a Bible, little young lad, to go to Spurs and that, but he, I did fall slow for him. I did actually think he was, I thought he was Chelsea, and I was, I was fucking hitting, I was going, you Chelsea, you come, bang, bang, bang. And the whole time it was, I thought, fuck it, I thought bad about it, I'm not gonna lie, I did, I did because, but, we're still mates, you know what I mean? I wish it was a Chelsea user. Yeah. I was going, was that, was that, what was the game after? Um, both, whatever. Just whenever it, happens. You know, Tottenham used to go off a lot more, Tottenham used to lose all the time, and it used to be a lot more volatile over Tottenham, I used to like it better, because it was like, when I was younger, we'd lose and there'd be like, we'd lose like 4-0 to United, and there'd be like 100 geese out in the street, just wanting it to go off, and it'd be, it'd be more of a laugh. Like, when he used to, like, when he used to win, everyone would come out a bit more jolly, but that was one more, when I was, I was more involved in it, a bit more differently, do you know what I mean? Yeah. How did the documentary come about, the one that's been viewed, Moe Winser-Thames? Yeah, so obviously we was, Because you were the main character in that? Yeah, so they, I was, I was doing a MMA fight, and they wanted to cover the, they wanted to cover the MMA fight, and um, me turning, me, because I was starting to train doing MMA, so they covered, they covered the MMA fight, and then at the fight, all the boys turned up, about 150 of the boys turned up on coaches, and uh, someone, they turned up off in the crowd. This is your first pro fight, that was, that was right, it's in the crowd. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was fucking nuts, like it was going, Yeah, you were going to meet, telling everyone that you came, don't you? Yeah, Alex Reed was going, in the name of peace, I was like, I was like, what's this game, none of it? But, I was um, I was in the cage, and I was thinking, I was thinking, do you know what, like, I didn't realise what it actually took, to be prepared for this fight, so, but then when it's restarted up, I'm, I'm in the mic going, stop fighting, do you know what I mean, like, let the fight continue, the more it started continuing, the more I was thinking, I can't be bothered anymore now, he's just like, almost like, I had to, I was well up for the fight, and then, your whole, just being in there, would have just kept you persevering on through, but like, then when that happened, it was like, it was like, it went on for like seven minutes, and it was like, alright, start again now, and it was like, and it fucking, and then I just sort of like, but I still managed to get through the fight and win, and it was a good experience though, because the Giza was, it went the whole distance, and the Giza was a tough, tough fellow, and for Milton Keynes, he turned up for a round. How hard does the transition from fainting a crow to then one-on-one ring? It's hard, like, when I first started training, I was, I went down to the gym, and I was like, fucking, I was getting bashed by like, seven inos, and I was thinking, I thought I could fight. I was saying to my mate the other day, no word of a lie, I used to get into rounds, I used to drop people left, right, and centre, like, quickly bang, bang, bang, I didn't even know how to punch. I went to this gym, I didn't know how to twist my fist, I didn't know how to fell, I was saying to my mate the other day, I said, if I started acting out like how I used to, I said it'd be devastating, because I'd be putting people away left, right, and centre, but obviously, you change, you get a bit older, you know, I'm not going to be running the streets, like what? Why does people not, if you're fainting for a farm, football matches, why do not most people not go out and train, do boxing, or MMA? I don't know. I don't know. I thought, I don't know. I wouldn't mind getting in a forest fight. That would, because you can't get in it, can you? I wouldn't mind going with about 10, 15 geese who train fighting over and taking on one of these Polish firms or whatever and seeing who the hardest is, you know what I mean? Because at the end of the day, like, fucking, I still think British people have got that fighting spirit about them. We're all animals, we're all fucking. Yeah. And I think obviously, we're going over there, like, you've got to remember, these Russian firms, they're going, and they go to France, that Marseille thing, they're beating innocent people up. That ain't fucking, that ain't hard, do you know what I mean? That ain't hard, but like if you come across 20 of our lot who are training and whatever, and like I picked a few wolves, lad, who are training, a couple of teams that are mates, it would be a different fucking ballgame. Anyone can go with 50 geese with go-cams and chase a load of England's shirters off. Yeah. Like, that really wound up. It's about Berlin. Yeah, that really, I mean other European teams like Liverpool and whoever's out in Europe, what they do is they pick up, they go there like two nights before, where they're like, a lot of fans go there, and they'll pick bar, but they'll wait for one in the morning, people are coming out plastered. They've done it in Lazio, like my mates were in a bar in Lazio and they tapped the pub, and my mates ended up fucking having it with them on the side street. When my actual powers come out to fucking have it with them, they fucking, they didn't want to know and they chipped off, they fucked off. Yeah, I've seen it, and I'm starting to have fans are bad for it as well. Yeah. Yeah. But the Lazio had come 50 on handed and stabbed a load of shirts outside and fucking attacked a bar that had women, like there was July the 4th, and there was, what's it called, American Independence Day, attacked a bar, a load of student birds in it, and my powers, and when they got actually confronted with morale, they flapped it, do you know what I mean? So how did you make, what was the plans to stop them from, think for talking to them, going pro and MMA? Yeah, so I got Nick to, got done for all of that football violence, and then I just, I just kept finding that violence was constantly becoming a problem, do you know what I'm saying? And then, I just kept, I think at the point, I think I got nicked for, I got nicked for attempted murder, and I think that was the point where I was like, look I've got to start fucking doing something, kill us, because I just, I didn't do the attempted murder. You never do that. Yeah, I didn't, what had happened was, I had a problem with this geezer, and I got broken in this, on this child, it was nothing to do with me, but me and this geezer had an occasion, I'm just pure reputation, and this is why I thought, I decided I need to start making a change here, but through pure reputation, I've got nick for it, because it's like, the area that I was living in, it's a small town, no one really does that sort of thing up there, and this geezer's been, this geezer who used to go around robbing people, he's ended up getting stabbed up, and I remember I didn't like, me and this fella didn't like each other, I knew he was a rat the geezer, didn't like him, never liked him, thought he was a rongon, and my judgement was normally pretty good with characters like that, and so I'm in, I'm asleep, I'm in bed, and I get this phone call, and someone's going, what have you done, what have you done? He goes, what are you talking about, I'm in bed, and he goes, I was so and so, he's been stabbed, I said, listen, I'm in bed, I said it wasn't me, but I said, if no one's claiming it, I didn't think nothing, got of it, and I'm fucking, I'm driving along to a club in Watford, and I'm driving to this club, I've got a few quid on me, driving along with my pal, and coming through Watford, but Watford's ANPR camera up, it's to the eyeballs, it's like fucking, walking, they drive through there, then they pick up your registration plate on the cameras, and they just swamped on my motor, like stay where you are, I'm like, oh, everywhere, bang, bang, bang, I was thinking, what the fuck's going on here? And the hands on the fucking steering wheel, it was like fucking, took my motor, took me to the police station, they was like, right, you're getting nicked for, at the time it was like, they fought the geese who was dying, kept coming, died about five times, they kept having to bring him back to life, and they had done me for attempted murder at the time, I think it was where it might have been, can't remember what the charge was, they was telling me that I was on nicked me, and they kept coming to the flap going, he's died again, and they just revived him, he goes, you're looking like you're fucked, and I'm sitting there thinking, I didn't do it, I was going like, what do you want about? I wasn't there, so they was going like fucking anyway, pulled me in for an interview about 23 and a half hours into being there, and I'm sweating thinking, do you know like, I'm gonna get fucked, I thought literally, and I thought there's geese who were in jail, who were like, I never did it, and like fucking, I'm gonna be one of them, I'm sinking in fucking, I thought, what I could do about this, I thought, you know what, I wouldn't mind if I'd done it, I said, I'll just hold my hands up and I'll do my bit of time, but I didn't even do this, I was thinking, this is gonna be, you know like when you watch some hurricane, whatever the geese are, and I'm thinking, I'm gonna be that geese, I'm going, it won't be, it won't be, but the worst thing was as well, my phone cell-sighted me to that area, because where I was, was nearby, where I was asleep, and so I was cell-sighted to that area, so I couldn't even say, cell-sight my phone, and the cell-sight of me being in that location enough, would have been enough to fucking fuck me, do you know what I mean? Anyway, luckily there was a witness, so the witness must have come forward, the geese that whoever he was with, as a witness, saying that he was another fella, a fella out from Newton, and anyway fucking, they ended up letting me go, but while they let me out, the old bill had gone to me, you've got a threat against your life, warning like an Osmond warning, I think that's what they call it, and they was like, look, people think that it was you that have tried to do this geese still, and it's on your life sort of thing, and I'm now thinking, alright, and like, so, and they're going, they said to me, some biker gang, the dad's linked to some biker gang, and I thought to myself, these geese, these geese are fucking rat, I thought fucking, there's no way he's going to be connected to some fucking high-up biker gang. I said like, and there's no way they're going to come for these geese after what he's doing, do you know what I mean? Any sensible bod wouldn't touch the fella with an iron bars pole. Anyway, they're going, I sat there and I thought, you've been serious. I said to the geese, you've been watching too much fucking Sons of Anarchy. So I said to the cop, I said, you need to stop, you need to fucking pour season six and drop it out. They're like, fuck it, he's literally even fucking watching Jack's teller. Anyway, I said, I just laughed him off. They go, yeah, you need to tell us where you're staying, because we know you're not staying at the address so we can make sure that you're safe. I said, look, I think I fancy my chances on my own. I said, you should never help me before. I said, you'll never help me in the future. And I thought, I said, sweet, but thanks for the thanks for the warning. And there goes one more thing. Don't be thinking about getting your labric growth mob down here or fucking going to do anything in retaliation or whatever because like it's beyond you. Do you know what I mean? So I said, oh, thanks. So, you know what I mean? Left. And that was the end of that. I thought fucking, what fucking they can't live in in fairyland telling me that I've got some fucking bike again. He was basically implying that people are going to come from abroad and stuff. I just thought, I was about 24, 25. But I was like, at that point, I was like, I was thinking, do you know what? Need to slow down because I'm getting pulled in for things that I'm not even doing now just through our reputation. And that could have gone westward. And I thought, you know, I've got to kind of make a curb here and just stop. Because that all come about through me having a problem with this fella. I just thought it could just, something like that could end up becoming a bit more serious. But it was like, honestly, it was one of the moments when I was in there and they kept coming to the flap. I thought, if this guy dies and there's no witnesses and I'm self-sighted, I could be fucked here. And it generally wasn't me. But the said fella who got stabbed, he tried to rob a fella and he's ended up, the robbery has gone wrong. He's got done. And he's ended up picking the geyser out and the ID parade. Who stabbed him. And I sat there and I thought, mate, do you know what? This is the problem of the criminal underworld now. I don't know if, I'm not saying it won't like this back in the day, but there's bodges who are doing bits and pieces who are fucking like going out robbing people who are doing proper scumbag, because they're working with the old bill, they don't get nicked. And I just don't understand it. Do you know what I mean? I just can't get my nut round. This guy, this geyser's gone to rob someone. He got stabbed up and picked the geyser out in the ID parade. That makes no sense. And this is the sort of people that you're dealing with about it. These are the sort of bodges that I know people are running about doing the utmost and they don't get touched by the old bill. I just think to myself, they've got a licence to do whatever they want. Question marks over their head. They've got a licence to do what they want. And the proper people are getting done and getting put away and fucked, you know what I mean? Because they don't work with it with the other mob. I see there's more informants now than there is actual screws. I don't think that the old bill actually do that much of a good job. I think they just simply work on people being grassy. Just having intelligence from grassy. Most of it is. It's not through that old fashioned policing people getting done. They're just getting a drop from someone. So that means someone gets pulled and they're kinder, they're a bit of porridge. How hard was it for you to start making changes, especially enjoying violence and getting involved in the mix? It's difficult. And I find there's always a dica that will pop up every six months. I call it a six month annual break. It's like a six month holiday. It's like when people go to Goa, they go to Goa for six months and then whatever the rain starts. It's the same on the street. Every six months there's a new dica that comes up. A new dica that's trying to make a name for himself. Trying to test you? Yeah. Trying to pop up. How hard was that then? Because the documentary obviously was watched moments at times. Does that obviously enhance your reputation but does it also make you a target? It makes you a target, but do you know what it is? It's like, I'm just, I just got to keep fit and just, I know I can look after myself. You know what I mean? And it is what it is, you know what I mean? Do you think training for MMA has calmed you down? Training, yeah, definitely. So like, I look at things completely differently. Like, so now I think like, situations I'd think, I need to, I want to do that keys or wherever. Or now I just think to myself, I know what I can do. I'll go out now and I must, you know, like, I'll be out and someone will be netting me, like looking at me, looking at me. And I think, what's this kind of looking at? Do you know what I mean? And before I would just fucking confronted the situation or it would have gone off or whatever, and now I just think to myself, like, look, I know, I know, worst case what will happen if it goes off, what I can do. So just, I ain't really got, I don't feel like I've got nothing to prove anymore. Do you know what I mean? Too much. Well, if you, if I look into it deeply, I think this might be something to prove to yourself. I've got nothing to prove to myself now. Like, I know what I'm capable of. Like, before I was, like, trying to prove way to myself, yeah, I'm like, you're a tough guy. Like, you can do this. You can do that. Now, I know, like, I know what I know what I can do. Like, I don't need to prove anything to myself or to anyone. Like, I don't feel like I need to do anything now to, to enhance, like you say, enhance reputations or anything. Like, it is what it is. And it's only like, if I'm out and it comes on me, then you've got to do what you've got to do to protect yourself. It's like the MMA kind of, kind of, like, it humbles you a lot. I think that has to break down and getting beaten up by, like, kids when you first start. It humbles you and it makes you feel like no longer, like, it breaks you down as a man. You know what I mean? Getting beaten up, train inspiring. I think, you know, you're not, like, you're not as tough as what you thought he was. Like, then starts to make you think differently. And then, like, as your journey goes on, you start to think differently as a martial artist and you start to think, I don't need to prove myself to him. Like, it is, like, and you calm down a lot more. I mean, obviously, you're a lot more dangerous, but you don't feel the need to prove, you don't need to feel the need to use that violence anymore, if that makes sense. Yeah, because while I was speaking about that earlier, the baddest motherfuckers in the gym that are the quietest, there's nothing to prove. Yeah. You tend to see if you're in a football firm that everybody's loud and boyish because there's 30, 40 handed. Yeah. Put them in a ring themselves and then you'll see the true colors, you'll see who's tough. Yeah, that's what I mean and, like, fucking, that's what I mean. Like, the gym can't, the gym is what? You know, when I break down, it makes you think, like, you know, you do things to make yourself tough. Like, you'd make yourself into a tough man doing things like fights and whatever, and you get a tough reputation. In that gym, when you get into that gym, it breaks you down and you realize, like, fuck you're not that tough. And then you actually become tough. And then when you actually become really tough within yourself and you know, like, you're an actual animal, then that's when you find peace, I think. Yeah, one percent. Like, once they're always shouting about the Goni and that is the ones who end up getting battered. Yeah. The ones who constantly shouting out shit, like the loudest men as the weakest. Yeah. They've always said that. Yeah. Fair play to you for making the changes. You're also in a documentary is it Elba? Idris Elba, yeah. Idris Elba. How did that come about? It was for a phenomenal actor, him. Yeah, because I was doing bits for the Prince. I was doing, like, I was like an ambassador for the Prince's Trust. I was doing, like, bits and pieces to try and... I went for a little stage when I was younger, where I was trying to... I was going into football, I stopped being on roads, like, round the manner. So I was going for a little stage where, like, I kind of, like, I was going for a transformation, but not in every aspect of my life, just on the... on the street side, do you know what I mean? So then I was trying to stop young kids getting involved in knife crime and gang crime and whatever, round the manner. So then obviously got involved with Prince's Trust, done a little documentary. Idris, he's actually an alright guy. Yeah. At the time, I didn't really know who he was too tough. He wasn't as big an actor as he was now. He'd done some films, he'd done, like, just a wire and I was like, you know, and then he'd become like using Nelson Mandela and a few other films. Phenomenal actor. And I was like, yeah, but I was probably lucky because I probably would have been a bit starstrucked. But I still like, you know what I mean? I managed to remain a bit, it was on a sensible level, but it was good though. Yeah, it was good. I watched that last night. My name is Phenomenal actor and it's good. You've done a lot of stuff. Do you think that your mum has a big part to play in that though? Yeah, do you know what? My mum has a big part to play in a sense that like, come from an area where there's a lot of violence and a lot of people who, I don't know, who haven't got a lot of morals at doing things and stuff. And there's a lot of, my mum sort of, even though I was involved in a lot of violence, she's a proper, she does a lot of work with people to, just like feeding the poor around that area after the Grimful Tower tragedy, but she's a proper clean-eyed person. You know what I mean? Lovely, lovely, lovely woman in that. And I think she's installed that into me. Even though I've done a lot of violent things, I've been involved in a lot of violence. I'm still a good person, you know, I don't do anything wrong or bully someone or rob a woman or something. Do you know what I mean? And I think all these, like, people can get lost on that and sometimes think, especially about me thinking he's this, he's that. But if you deep it properly, like I'm actually, if you know me on a personal level, like a lot of people who have got bad words say about me don't know me from Adam. If you actually meet me as a person, I'll just, my friends, my family, people around me, I'll do the utmost on a good side as well as a bad side. Everybody has? Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like, and I try to only bring that bad side out when it's absolutely necessary or at football. Do you know what I mean? Like, and I think that's, like, that sometimes that can be lost sometimes, you know, like, people will have a bad, bad, bad words say about this, generally with me, it's if they haven't, they haven't actually even had a conversation with me. Do you know what I mean? How has it been for and on in the professional MMA? How far do you think you can go? Do you know what, for me, yeah, like, I've done my bit of bird and I lost a bit of time, but I really want, like, my boy, I'm trying to get him into martial arts now. I really just want to win at least a UK title so I can have something called the mental piece for the boy. Do you know what I mean? So he's got something to look up to. Do you know what I mean? But if it can go a little bit further than that, I'd be blinded, but I lost a little bit of time being away for a couple of years. But like I said, that heavyweight division is quite weak, you know what I mean? And it's like, it's a puncher's chance. Everyone's got a puncher's chance. So I told him, yeah, I said to a few people, look, if you start again, like you're going to, because a few shows don't want to put me on. And I was like, look, come on. I said, like, I had to add a word to him like, come on boys, you can't be doing that. Do you know what I'm saying? Because I'm trying to do something here. Do you know what I'm saying? But it's, they haven't started any trouble since. I don't think they will. Touch me. Touch me, yeah. Touch me. But in saying that, I've been fighting, I need to have a fight in London because to be fair, I've been fighting a lot and I had a massive win in Swindon. And like, if I won in London, it will just rock. It will just be rocking. Like, I can't wait. Do you know what I mean? Do you miss the old days? Yeah, I do. Yeah, like, I do miss. Do you know what it is? I miss being a bit carefree when I was younger. I miss that carefree feeling I miss, you know what I mean? Selfishness is not good enough. Yeah, just, yeah, but now it's like different than that. Do you know what I mean? But, and as well, like, I come back off my band after 13 years. And, I was, in November, come back off my band and mate, it's like, the old bill out there on to me. I thought to myself, like, you wasn't even on to me like this when I was active. They got, they, they, they was man marking me like Chelsea West, West down, Chelsea, Chelsea at home, they, they manmarked me. They put like two old bill on me. And, it was funny because it was, funny story. They, they put these two old bill on me. But he's, these young, young coppers. And then, fuck, they just leave me alone. It's like, I'm going to one pub, they're following, going to another one, just thinking, just drop it out. It's, it almost starts to, like, antagonize you. And by going to a calf, they're sitting outside the calf, like, fucking taking notes. Like, you're eating baked beans or something. They're writing down, they're walking, is he eating baked beans? You know that? And I think, fuck, it's a list. We walked up to this pub and, gone to this pub called the, you know, I said, I've had enough of this. Not even that I wanted to cause any ag. I just thought, I just want to just go have a drink without being watched and followed. But obviously, it comes with, obviously being on that documentary probably wasn't the best thing that you could have done. But I was, at the, at the Pacific time, I was looking at it like, I weren't going to be going back to football. I had a 13 year ban. I didn't want to get nicked again. But obviously, come out of my ban and I want to go and watch Spurs. Because they're like, it's, it's my first, like proper love, love Spurs. You get Muslim fanatics, I'm a fanatic for Spurs, you know what I mean? And I thought to myself, right, I want to still want to watch Spurs. So gone and started going, I'm so at this, at this pub and they're outside. I thought, right, we're going to lose these. I thought, yeah, today we're going to slip these. Now we're going to go and watch the game. No whole bill. And I was with my pal. And he pretended to hop over into the garden and they've got sort of looked and they've gone, ah, yeah, we're watching y'all. So I thought, the garden route's not going to work. But it was just a little dummy. So then we've gone, we've gone to the side door for the pub. So we come through the main door. Now they're watching the garden door and the main door. But there's another side door at the pub. So we slipped out of the side door and gone out the road, fucking gone to another pub or whatever. Completely lost them. And they apparently come into the pub about half hour later, going like, where's he gone? Like they didn't even know there was a side door. They're going, where's he gone? They're looking around the pub, getting fuming, like foam coming out of their eyes. I've gone up to walked out the road and we've got pulled up the road about an hour later. The ones who have been going since I was a kid. And I've said, he's pulled me up and I said, look, I said, come on boys. I said, show a bit more respect. I said, don't put the kids on me. At least put the seniors. I said, it's me with the seniors. You know what I mean? I said, no, you can't put the amateurs on. Do you know what I mean? We just completely slipped on it. It's funny, it's funny. I think they see it as a funny, I was only having a laugh of him in jest, but it was like, they literally. How hard was that though? No, not at all. Oh, well, it was your next friend thinking you're lying bastard. No, I just got like, literally, I'm not, it's a dumb game now, isn't it really? Do you know what I mean? Especially if you're pro now, as well, lose your licence, lose everything. Do you know what his thing is? I'm kind of glad that maybe coronavirus had happened because it was like, I was going to all the games and that and probably, I don't know, it's probably a good thing, you know what I mean? Because it's given me a time to come up away and reflect because at the end of the day, I know what the old bill are like and I know that, for example, if I was going to a game with my boy, for example, and I know probably you get a few scumbag teams that would take my boy to a game, someone's try a company or something from behind. It's probably, they probably might try because you get a few, and the old bill see it on camera, they probably need me try to send me to prison for it because they don't like me. So, like, there was an incident where it went off with Sheffield United and my first game back off a band and I didn't even do nothing, mate, I was outside the booze, someone pushed someone, he's gone off, there's loads of shouting and so on and so forth, loads of people got decked and that and I didn't throw a punch, didn't get involved, and my mate got nicked for it, he got set point on trial because he pushed the fella at the start and it was just literally, I didn't touch it and all the police reports about me, it doesn't say about me to do anything with me throwing any punches, but I thought to myself, right, he's like, really, they really got it in for me, you know what I mean? Like, there's an incident here, the geezer's been nicked, he's on trial, I'm not on trial and my name is on it more than he is. So, when I look back at that paper work I was thinking, do you know what, these are a proper game for it, but I don't understand why they got such a need all about football because it's like, there's so much other crimes that are going on that are so much more bigger, a couple of people throwing a few punches, a minor thing. Like, there's things that are going on, serious things out there that kind of gets, not sweat on the cup, they get, they don't get as much police attention and they don't get as much porridge and I just think to myself, like, it's like, I don't know, they're just, people have got families, lives and I think, they're just like, they're looking at that thing, well, I didn't do a thing and they got my name all over the port, they could be taking me away from my family when I'm not doing anything. That's a serious thing to do and I just, I don't understand why they do, why they like that. It still is big from now, present day, as it was 10, 20 years ago. Nah, it's not really. Nah, it's quite low. Yeah, it's quite low. There's cameras and shit. Yeah, it's quite down. It's all different now, isn't it? It's all, obviously, there's still elements, but it's a lot different now. It's a lot more, they used to be like, fucking, when I was a kid and that, it used to be going off every week, but I think there's well like, there's a few other things as well like to do with football as well. I don't know if you saw the Black Lives Matter incident that happened with football boards and that and it kind of went off between the black community and football, because there was a mark, like the statues were getting disturbed and that, up by the Black Lives Matter and I think that Black Lives Matter had a lot of antifa, who were a left wing organisation like infiltrated within them, do you know what I mean? Because you're going and like, you're seeing like sort of BLM getting written on graffiti, but then it was like some white student that was doing it, like a lot of that's like, not even sort of like black people doing that as a movement, that's more like antifa, which is a left wing organisation infiltrating that group and there was a lot of tension being sparked up between that and the football community and it's quite upsetting because I'm just like, a lot of the black community now probably look at football, who are doing this, they're just all under the taran under the same brush, like they were racist scumbags and they don't understand that there's a lot of football boards, a lot of football firms who are multicultural, who ain't like that, and a lot of football lads are looking at Black Lives Matter with, and that Black Lives Matter movement and thinking that they dislike, there's a dislike of them now because there's like a rivalry between them but like I said before, there's a lot more that goes into it and people see like, not everyone at football is a racist or fucking anti-Black Lives Matter and what Black Lives Matter as well, what people at football don't understand is that there's a lot more to that movement than what they understand, like coming from a black community where like the football community automatically think that everyone was going out upset because of some American guy, the George Gees had got killed in America, I don't remember when they all sparked up. Yeah, put his knee in the floor. Yeah, a lot of people are thinking like, because I hate this argument all the time, why are people marching to do this Black guy that's in America who's been killed out there over here? What's he got to do with us over there? What they don't understand is it's not really about that. What it's about is about fucking the black community in England being persecuted by the old bill and by the old bill over the years it's been going on. It hasn't just gone away. Not to say that white people haven't been persecuted by the old bill or white communities haven't been targeted by the old bill, but when you grow up in an area like Labyrinth Grove, it's constant. There's a lot of constant stop and searches, a lot of niggins, people getting killed in police stations. My sister's fiance got murdered in that police station by the old bill and nothing happened. No one went to the streets for it, but these things build up and the community starts to build up and a number of events happen like my sister's fiance getting killed, Mark Duggan getting killed by the old bill in Tottenham. All these incidences start to build up. People's sons get taken beatings by the old bill and they start to build up and people don't necessarily, they might not march at that specific event, but then it takes something in America to spark off all these feelings that have been going on for that. Do you know what I mean? People sit there and think, they're silly going and marching for some Giza in America and they say I was a criminal or whatever, why are they marching for him? But they're not looking at, they're not in it, they're not seeing what's going on week in, week out. I've been there personally, I've seen my sister break down in her tears in the hospital whilst armed police are there, do you know what I mean? These things, and then my house got spun the next day by the old bill in the morning. After they've just signed up, basically a member of our family, they raided the house. And then when I was walking down the street, these sort of things, people ain't seeing that. And this is what's going on in that community and the build-up of mistrust and hate then erupts from something that's happening in America. Yeah. How was it with Ed Greenfield just behind us here? How's that been for the community here? I was away when that I was away when that happened, but I was in jail, but my brother, he went down there and obviously people were burning at their windows and stuff, and he was traumatised by it for a long time. I had got some good mates called the diss and brothers, Harry, Arthur and Charlie. They were old men, they were off my estate and they were old men, died in the town. So a lot of good friends, families, and that were linked. I had a boy that I used to play football with that went back in to save his family, he didn't come back out. So a lot of people had died in there because of this trust with the government because of Grenfell Tower and I think a lot of people ran around the manner in that they just feel like this area, particularly our area, that they don't want working-class people around here and they don't want the working-class community around here because it's an affluent area. It's the Queens borough, there's a lot of money, they're pumping a lot of money and they're trying to knock down all the council estates and turn them into private residents and everyone feels like and they want to move everyone out systematically in whatever system that they're doing and they just feel like a lot of the entire blocks have been abandoned and they're left, they're like sort of left communities are left to rot. So when they do get offered a chance to move out they take it straight away or we're knocking this building down now because it's been left for so long. Has there been any answers for that yet? No, there's been no justice for it at all. No justice for it at all and this is what I mean, it's all sort of swept under the carpet as if it's going to be forgotten about. There's been a lot of marches that spoke out a good few things. There's been a lot of marches for it and stuff. It's disgusting, do you know what I mean? That's what makes people angry though. Do you know what I mean? That's what people think. I think the whole system's corrupt anyway. I used to be quite patriotic about my country and now I just sort of after all the things that I've seen and things that have gone on I just think to myself what's going on is even prison. You go to prison and I think to myself I'm in jail and I think I was a young... I could probably half the prison population by one move. How's this not been done? When I was looking in prison I was thinking all they need to do is put in major firms in the prisons. For example, Mercedes Benz and different car manufacturers and builders firms they could contract out the work inside prisons give them an actual occupation to do an actual skill to learn like making aeroplanes or something. They'll get paid a decent way so that they can actually survive when they get out. Through the course to get a job through to have the contracts inside the prison and have a follow-on job when they get out I said you'd probably half the prison population in one it by doing that But prisons make money. They want people in prison. So it's not... So they want an increase if inmates. They want to increase the prison population because it puts judges in puts the whole building it puts prison officers, governors It makes no sense putting someone in prison locking them in a box for 23 hours a day and then letting them out of 40 quid They commit more crime. It's a constant circle. Who's deciding to do this? I believe it's flawed even from the schooling system there's just so much shit that his back was to me but I've not got the power obviously. I just need to look after me and my family. Exactly and if you speak out too much I'll probably get persecuted. You know what I mean? If you speak out too much you're either going missing or you're not doing it. There's so much more you can speak to about you could evolve this conversation in a million different ways but like if you speak too much then do you know what I mean? You become afraid. There's just so much. Going forward for the future brother. What's the plans for you? I've set up an American firm selling American bully excels I've really got that up in the ground Trojan Bully UK Trojan Bully UK Working people check on Instagram type my name on Instagram and the link for my Trojan Bully page where they sell the bullies on there Instagram is probably the main place that they can check that out Do you have a fight this year? Yeah I'm going to be fighting for a title and just trying to find an opponent because my opponent that I was going to have is signed for a major organisation so you've got a title fight coming up to keep your eyes on that you can follow that on my Instagram as well I'll have all that training videos and that and yeah hopefully we can Listen brother if I come running then tell me your story it's been fascinating that's what I enjoy all the best for the future can't wait to see your next fight Check out more of my podcasts on the right and comment your thoughts on this week's podcast Thank you