 We are so pleased to be back with Wilson Moore. We talked to him last week about his docent experience over 10 years at Eilani Palace, learned a lot about the palace and learned a lot about how you get to be a really good docent. But you know, it's more. There's more here. And we want to talk to Wilson in our approach to life in the law, namely, how has it been as a career? Because not only we want to learn, but we want to ask him to suggest things for young lawyers and people in general who might consider going into the law. So this is a very important show. And Wilson has had a long career in and around the law. So Wilson, thanks for coming down again. Thank you very much, Jay. So why did you go into the practice of law? Can you give us a story on that? Well, I really had no burning desire to be a lawyer. I was a third generation lawyer who hung around my dad, who tried cases in the federal court. And so I knew what that was all about. But I thought it was the best general experience for business. And so that's what I did. I graduated. And then I started to get law jobs. Then pretty soon I got infected with the practice and enjoyed it more and more and started to specialize into trial law, which I thought was very interesting. Did you like law school Hastings, wasn't it? Hastings, I was the first third generation Hastings graduate, my grandfather in 2005, my father in 1924, and me in 1953. There must be fifth generations anyway now, but I come by it rightly, you might say. You said 2005? Was it 1905? 1905, excuse me. And he told me that the Bar Association was conducted orally by the Supreme Court of California, half of which required him to explain the difference from some real property maxims. And the other half thought him how to charge. This is very valuable, you know. Some lawyers never learn how to do that. 1905, that's right. So now Rushmore is the firm you were with for many, many years. That's correct. Where did you start? You didn't start there. No, I started with Rushmore actually in the fall, in the summer of 1964. I decided I didn't want to practice law. By myself, my dad had passed away. And so I wrote letters to several law firms and heads. And Hal Conroy called me up, said, let's have lunch. And I accepted an offer to join his firm. I think that was September 1964. But I was involved with some litigation. And he said, well, you go ahead and finish that up and then come into our offices the first year. So I was trying some major lawsuits at that time, and I cleaned that up. Conroy Hamilton, right? Yeah, Hal Conroy. We started off with Marshall Kelly Henshaw, was with the Bishop Trust and a fine lawyer. And both Harold Conroy and Don Hamilton were military types. I think Conroy and the Air Force and Hamilton and the Navy, they mustered out here looking for a job and they formed a law firm. And it was Henshaw Conroy Hamilton. So now what about the attorney general? You were the special, what was it, the ports? You were the ports attorney? Well, then I left the attorney general's office in 1959 before statehood. But then when statehood came, then Kurt Kobayashi was the attorney general. His office was in what is now the imprisonment room in Yolani Palace. The government was in there. Where you take the tourists. That's where I took my tours. That's exactly where I was. You're saying that you used to work in that very room. And he needed help because with the expanded legislature, the deputies had all left to run for office and he needed some help. And one of the agencies that needed help was the Hawaii Aeronautics Commission. And so I started to do some work for them as a special deputy just for a special task. And then in the late 1950s, the state wanted to move the airport, the International Airport from John Rogers Airport over on Lagoon Drive. General aviation right now. Yeah, general aviation now in FedEx and that. Over to the sprawling complex where it is now. And that meant an awful lot of legal drafting and negotiating and so forth. So I was hired as a special deputy. They gave me an office in the transportation building. My boss was Tim Ho. The big boss was Dr. Fugio Matsuda. Well, I became UH. Living Treasure, a marvelous man. And so I drafted all of the documents that dealt with the state bringing in these people. The airlines were a special problem, so you couldn't charge them strictly on space because their use was much more extensive. So what we did was work out something I wasn't unique with me, but I was part of it. Landing fees. So what we did was we charged the airlines for use of the airport based on their number of times they landed, and of course a special dispensation given to Hawaiian at a low hook as they touched on much more often. So I got associated with the airport. And then after I left the attorney general, we opened a new airport, I think, in November 1962. That must have had a lot to do with the fact that the 707 had come online in the late 50s. I want to say 59, around the time of statehood. Could be, could be. Now we had jets instead of, you know, just an engine plane. Yeah, one of the technical advisor for the new airport was Air Terminals, Inc., out of Burbank, California. And they're the ones that designed the passenger gantry that moved the passengers to and from the aircraft without going down onto the tarmac. And that's just all of everybody all over the world use that now. Looking back, this was really a very important event for the state of Hawaii. We were about to go into a tourism industry that has ruled the, you know, that has been the engine of our economy for all these years. You were right there at the beginning of it. Well, I don't know about that. The expansion certainly, those are very fast. Anything to do with airports is dynamic. It's a really interesting time in a lawyer's life. I tried some cases. We had a disappointed restaurant bidder. So I sued the aeronautics commission and I was the deputy that tried that case. And they took an appeal. I want it downstairs. They took an appeal upstairs. I want it down up there, too. But anyway, from that association with the airport, I continued to represent the airport after that for various risk managers. And apparently I got a name known in the aviation industry and I started to get aviation cases. Yeah, and so there you are ultimately Henshaw Conroy and Rush Moore, ultimately. You're doing aviation litigation. Talk about how you got into that. Well, aviation, I tried really a fairly small case for Lloyds of London. And the supervising attorney for Lloyds was a lawyer from Lord Bissell and Brook in Chicago. And I was successful in the case and I tried the case before a jury. And apparently everybody was happy with it. So my name got known as around the aviation circles. And then came 1988. Do you remember we talked about that? April of 1988 was a very significant month in Hawaiian history. That was the month that Flight 243 for Oloho Airlines was on a so-called routine flight from Hilo to Honolulu. The pilot, his name is just too difficult, too long and too difficult to pronounce. Anyway, a fine pilot turned the piloting over to the co-pilot, who was a good friend of mine, to Mimi Tompkins. And then all of a sudden, the plane started to shudder. And it took a lot to get the plane diverted down to Maui and successfully landed. When they landed, they discovered that half of the top of the fuselage of the plane was gone, totally gone. And one of the flight attendants, too. One of the flight attendants did not have a seat belt on, was standing near the door. The ripping of the fuselage started near the door. And unfortunately, she lost her life. The rest of the people in the plane suffered a lot of injuries. But there was no other loss of life. We had some newspaper articles we ought to show about this incredible. OK, so this is a star advertiser. More than $30 million OK'd for Ohana. Ohana, that's a different subject. This is a newspaper article from April of 2018, last year commemorating 30 years ago. I Couldn't Sleep for a Week was the quote by the pilot. And he's 72 or three years old now and still around. And he says he still has nightmares about that event. But they called me as soon as the lawsuits from the passengers started to come in. They called me and asked me to defend Aloha Airlines. Aloha was sued because they had provided passage and they were supposed to take the passengers safely from one spot to the other. And they sued Boeing, the manufacturer of the 737. And this was an interesting phenomena because fighter planes back in World War II had suffered metal fatigue. That's what caused this. Microscopic cracks showing up in the fuselage, which propagate and can really cause major destruction like this. From fighter planes going up and down and up and down, depressurizing and difference in temperature. And you had metal fatigue. And what the Brits decided was you got to check for it and you got to replace. Well, Boeing had put out what we call airworthy directives, ADs, which are put out by the manufacturer but have to be reviewed and approved by FAA, which told everybody how to look for these cracks by X-ray evidence. And at first, there was a big dispute between Boeing and Aloha. And I was at the brunt of it blaming Aloha for the accident because they said, we told you what to do. You didn't do it. And so I went through all the A&P, airframe and power plant, is what we call the airplane mechanics, went through all their records. And I was satisfied. We had done what the ADs told us to do. So anyway, it ended up, I settled. I did a lot of discovery, got records, took depositions, and things like that. And I ended up settling all the cases of the passengers. And I think part of the settlement money came from Boeing. Anyway, Aloha didn't forget. Aloha was so annoyed with Boeing for blaming them for the accident when they considered it to be a product defect. For a long time, they didn't buy Boeing aircraft. They went to British Aircraft Corporation 111, which they flew for a number of years. It reminds me of the Max plane that's now grounded. You read about it in the newspaper. Boeing was blaming the pilots. And the pilots were really irritated about that. Well, I think I'm not an expert on the subject. I've not delved into it. All I know is what I read in the newspapers. But there apparently was a system which could be improved by Boeing. But I think the claim that Boeing was making is too many pilots are taught computer controls and not learning how to fly an airplane. And what happened when you get in trouble, you should turn the controls off and fly the airplane. And Boeing contends, anyway, that the pilots of these ill-fated planes didn't have sufficient training. That was a bad blow for, however, to round up for a whole lot. Do you think it had anything to do with the end of the airline? I have no idea. My own personal opinion is that they were not nimble enough to expand with the huge competition of the inter-island flights that you just couldn't make enough money out of that. Hawaiian realized that early on and started to expand overseas, which was where they are now. But it does point out, though, that flying into Ireland with all the ups and downs every day, half a dozen times at least, is a special experience. It's different than flying long distances. No question about that. And the maintenance has to be different. That's true. So what I mentioned earlier, I think it's really interesting to find that a local attorney would do aviation law at such a high level. That's not a pun. And a local attorney, in lieu of all these mainland firms that specialize in aviation law, so to see your credit that you got that case and handled those claims. To begin with, a lot of my early aviation work was with small aircraft and helicopters. Helicopter pilots were continually landing on the volcano, sucking up volcanic dust into their carburetors, and then getting into the edge in trouble. But then the big planes, sometimes I wasn't allowed to keep the case. For instance, I had a case for United Airlines where a cargo door blew off several hundred miles south of Hawaii, right underneath the first class passenger seating. And eight or nine passengers lost their lives. And I was hired to defend United Airlines. And in the investigation, we found that the ground crew was using a way to close the cargo doors and then double backing on the car bar door and putting too much force and finally the mechanism gave. And I proceeded with that case. It was a very high-profile case. Joey Perkins in Seattle, who was Boeing's attorney, decided they'd rather have the case. And it was in federal court. They just transferred it from the federal court in Honolulu to the federal court in Seattle, and I lost the case. That's too bad. That happens. It just happens. Boeing and these other F-Rain manufacturers, they self-insured, or they have insurance from large reinsuring companies like Lloyds of London? I can't answer the question. I would imagine it would be a mix. They would insure part and self-insure part. I know a lot of my airplane clients did that. So you did various other kinds of litigation, too. Aviation was not the only thing. No, but, well, generally, I tried all kinds of cases. I tried scuba diving cases in land, tidal, in eminent domain. I tried all kinds of cases. Every law firm that has a sufficient clientele has to have a litigation department. A litigation has got trial lawyers. And what do we do is we file suit for clients that need that work, and we defend clients that are sued. So it's a specialized business in that it's high profile, in that it's high energy, lots of adrenaline, lots of long hours, and it's not for everybody. But Hell Conroy used to call it the romance of the law. So there's a lot of self-satisfaction at it, too. Well, within the firm, the litigators are always very important because they're the public ones. They're the ones who are known one way or the other for how they do in court. And while you're doing this aviation law and litigation, you're building the firm. After all, you were a principal. How was it to build that firm over those years? Well, to be perfectly honest, I early on told my partners that my forte was trying cases and handling lawsuits and not administration. I had practiced law by myself after my dad died. I joined him in his small firm. And I just didn't like all the paperwork. So I told my partners early on, you do the administration and I'll provide the money for you. So I, of course, attended all the partner meetings and we had policy decisions to make. But the nuts and bolts of the actual administration left up to the managing partner and to the policy committee. And the firm grew in size and reputation all through those years. It depends on the business. It was a mainstay on Bishop Street, yeah. Yes, we had major clients. And we built as the business required. I think at one point, we're up to 55 lawyers. I think we're back down now, maybe 25 or 30. I'm not sure. All firms have a personality vis-à-vis other firms and their clients and business in general. And here you are, you're a litigator. But Wilson, everybody likes you. How do you do that? How do you be a litigator and slug it out in court and then find people like you? I think treat people fairly. I always tried to do that in my practice. I treated my litigants and the judges and the other lawyers on a fair basis. I kept my word. I said something, I meant it. And I think that maybe gets you some decent reputation. So you retired in 1995? Yep. But you didn't retire from the Evaluation Panel, the Judicial Evaluation Panel. No, that. Can you talk about your time with them? The Judicial Evaluation Panel is a brainchild of Chief Justice Ron Moon, who's now retired. And I joined them several years into the situation. What he did was he wanted to, he does the reappointment. In other words, he finds the nominees and he puts them up for appointment by the Judicial Selection Committee. The names he provides, they do the selecting as approved by the Senate. So I don't know how many of the judges in Hawaii from the District Court to the Circuit Court to the Supreme Court, District Court of Appeals, there is a lot of them. So he can't have the judges continually coming into his office and explain their shortcomings to him. So Judge Moon very wisely set up this Judicial Evaluation Panel. And how it works is there is a panel, but we always sit in a number three. There's three of us that we sit each time. As a retired trial lawyer, that was me. There's always a retired judge. Then there's a member of the community, good balance. And every time a lawyer appears before a judge in the lower court, he's asked to evaluate that judge on legal acumen, his smarts, control of the courtroom, legal decorum, things like that, his ability to settle and plea bargain case in his judicial management. And in my day, this was all done by paper. Now it's done digitally. But all of these go to the Judiciary Department. So when a panel is going to be coming up for hearing, and we have a selection of judges you want to hear, you get the documents for the lawyers have submitted for those judges. But the judiciary sanitizes those. So we get the verbatim comments, but we do not have the identity of the lawyer. We don't know. They assign a number instead. So if we see in the briefing book we're given that this particular judge before us is late every day to his courtroom, we don't pay, and that's four, four, four says that, we don't pay much attention. But if four, four, four says that, and nine, three, two, and six, two, one, you know there's more than one lawyer making the same problem. You say, hey judge, what do you keep in the lawyers and litigants waiting for? That's just an example. There are other things that come up. The value of having people I think experienced on the panel is that judge may say, how should I do it differently? Well, some of us would have some experience to say, well I suggest that you do it this way. And then when he comes up for reapportionment, whatever that comment was made is no longer there in his record and the judge doesn't have to go through this Chief Justice, doesn't have to go through the trouble to scour, to find more nominees to put on the bench, he can have that one reaffirmed. So I would imagine based with a panel like that, judges, sitting judges would respond favorably to the advice you would give them. Because it's based on, you know, as you being reasonable, it's based on getting some feedback from the legal community who appear in front of them. I imagine they would try to improve their style, based on that. But did you ever run into judges who said, sorry, all those people are wrong, I am a very good judge and I do not accept your advice? Human nature to be defensive. And almost the first thing you encounter when you have a judge across the table from you is, I've gone through this and I don't think I did any of those things. So you're a defensive. That's human nature. But most of them are very grateful for this opportunity. They have busy schedules and they've seen multitudes of people and they're very grateful. In fact, I've gotten several letters just as a panel member from the individual judges afterwards thanking me for my input and for taking the time to sit on the panel. Yeah, I'm sure they would appreciate that. Three members on the panel, was there a chair? Has there been a chair? Well, usually one of us is selected as a chair. I usually get talked into it because I've been around the longest, I've chaired three sessions so far this year. 2019, I'm still doing it. Still doing it. Even this year, 2019, you're still doing it. Well, if they think I can be of value, listen, that's part of all giving back to my community. Yeah, well, let's talk about that. So you've practiced law, you've engaged in litigation, you've done what we call it, community service for the benefit of the bar association, for the benefit of the judges. And that means the bar association. And you've also done a huge amount of community service for Eleni Palace over the past 10 years. So this is quite a career and they like you. On top of that, on top of all of that. I'll take your word for it. Take my word. I tell people you're coming on the show, I get feedback every time, it's always the same. I guess my question is what would you leave with members of the bar in terms of how to have a good career? Are those elements always necessary? Do you think that every lawyer, for example, should do community service for the bar association, do community service outside the bar association? Is this an important part of having a good legal career? Well, actually the bar has a very active program called Pro Bono for the public good. And it encourages all lawyers and all law firms to, each one of the lawyers to engage, give a certain amount of their time to some public project. And at the time I was practicing, I was already on the judicial evaluation panel. But others give time to the community chest, to Catholic church and all kinds of things giving back to the community. And that's still very, very active, I think, the Pro Bono program. So I think all lawyers do that. Let me ask you this, we live in a time when the rule of law may be disregarded sometimes. People in general, the community doesn't see it as important, and that's, in my view, very destructive to all that we have built in designing a rule of law in this country and the state. What is the role of the lawyer? What is the duty of the lawyer to protect the rule of law? You may not have been involved in that because I think most of your career, it was respected by everyone. But we live in a time now when that's in question. Do you have any advice on that? I just really don't know how to answer that. I think the role of a lawyer is to represent his clients in a equitable, fair, and honest way. Community fairs are a separate part of a lawyer's role in life. I feel strongly about the rule of law, but human beings are human beings, and they have their own likes and desires, and they go where that leads them. But I think without law, we're a bunch of animals, and I think that's necessary to have the law. Yeah, the community needs lawyers for sure, to heal their, you know, Jim Duffy once said. Great guy. The ministers, they heal your soul. The doctors, they heal your body. The lawyers, they heal your controversies. So it's all a matter of healing controversies, yeah. So young lawyers coming into the practice, deciding, I mean, one of our hosts has just got accepted in a law school in the mainland. She's gonna go there. She's gonna be a good student and a good lawyer, I think. But you know, what are the considerations that you see after your long career in a changing field? It's changed so much, and it's been at the heart of change of our state. What do you see as the reasons and benefits for going into law now? This is an important question for a lot of young people. Well, of course the role of a lawyer, I think, in this present day, is much diminished over my time. With the digital with online, you can get an online lawyer. But I think the education with the knowledge of the Constitution and the rule of law and the basic tenants upon which this country was founded, I think that is heightened in every student in law school. And I think that serves every citizen well. I went into law because I thought it was a great background for any business vocation, and I would recommend any lawyer, anybody that wants to go to law school, to think about that. You may not want to be a lawyer when you get out, but you'll have many more opportunities available. How about cause lawyers? Lawyers who work for nonprofits, work for causes, take activist cases, what's your thought on that? I think that's marvelous. I don't make a lot of money usually. That never was not my interest, but we couldn't do without them. I mean, the public defenders and people like that, we can't do without them. They serve a real necessary practice. Public defenders, when I first started out, there was no such a thing, and every judge had a little list of brand new lawyers, and he'd call me on the phone and say, well, your name is coming up, you're being my courtroom on Tuesday, you're going to represent so-and-so as accused of robbery or whatever, and that's how you got started doing volunteer work. But now there is people that are skilled at that. You got into the practice of law at a time when you could have gone to sort of general practice, writing documents, advising clients, but not necessarily going to court, and ultimately, as things evolved, you got into a litigator's spot, and you spent most of your career, I guess, as a litigator. So what's your advice to a young lawyer or law student or recent graduate as to whether to focus on being a litigator in these times? Well, I think you find your own niche. Litigation is not for everybody. I had a number of lawyers in my office that were scared to death about stepping into a courtroom and being on the public scene and public speaking, and but I think you come to it naturally, and so you're going to find that out yourself. I started my law firm, that was hired by Henshaw Conroy and Helmle as a land lawyer because they knew what I did at the airport, and I came to work one morning and my desk was piled high with files by a young lawyer who said, I don't want to try cases anymore. I want to be a corporate lawyer, give it to the newbie, and I was the newbie, and that was fine with me because that meant trial law in their house. I got trial law, so. See how working for the attorney general for Kobayashi in those days and being close to the airport has had an effect on the way your career evolved. No question. One little thing, accidental maybe, and there you go, it helps you going forward. That's right. Yeah. Well, I only have one more question, Wilson. I really enjoyed the time with you both last week and this week. I have one more question. So we've talked and we've examined your time at the Yolani Palace, but also your time in practice and your time in litigation and your time with the judicial evaluation and all that. And I mean, you're an iconic person. I mean, I knew of you long before I knew you, okay? I've known you for years. So my question is, how do you want people to see you and remember you? What advice would you leave them about selecting this course of life? And how do you want them to think of you? Well, I don't think lawyers or any other is anything special. There are so many very prosperous and notable people in the community that do a lot of things besides lawyers. I think the same principles that should guide your life as a citizen honest, they're dealing hard work. Don't be yourself. Make sure that you're the cause and realize that. I think that's the most important thing. It's all about decency, isn't it? I think so. Thank you, Wilson Moore. Thank you. Great to talk with you. Great. Oh-ha.