 that the Quran was written as a holistic document, that it was not meant necessarily to be dissected word by word, but there are repeated themes that we know are part of who we are and what we believe as Muslims. The first of this, of course, is justice, that all oppression, including domestic violence, is not only prohibited, but we are called to confront oppression wherever we see it, and that if we see this between believers, it is our job as Muslims to call to attention to that believer, the oppressive practices that they are engaging in, that that is part of our sacred duty as believers, one to another. We also know that one of our repeated themes is mercy, is that there is no harsh treatment acceptable, and we will look verse by verse, but this is repeated over, over, over again, even within war, that we are not allowed to take away access to water, that we are not allowed to take away access to food, that we must provide reasonable living, even for our prisoners, much less for folks within our own families. We know that there is a value on patience and perseverance and that we endure trials by maintaining our relationship with Allah, but that we actively seek to end oppression, so that patience is not being patient with oppression, that patience is about understanding that as believers, we will have many trials and tribulations, but that oppression is not something that we should ever accept. We also are called over and over to forgiveness, but again, forgiveness does not mean acceptance of injustice or oppression and that it is a process facilitated by accountability and justice making, especially between believers, because how we treat each other as believers is different than when we are dealing with non-believers. We also know that one of the basic foundations of Islam always is freedom of choice, and I know as a mom, sometimes I have difficulty with this and I have had my child pull up the verses and talk about homework and say, well, that's what you believe, you believe, and I believe, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, this is not, this is not a religious issue, this is homework, right? We do know that religious teaching outlines what is right and wrong and that there are consequences with each of our actions, but each of us has the freedom of choice and that is what we are put on this earth to do is to make those choices. That is not something we can do for anyone else and we know that there is no coercion even in matters of religion. We also know, alhamdulillah, that we are not held responsible for anyone else's actions. So if someone, even within our own family, as heartbreaking as that might be, does something that offends, allow that is that person's not ours. So when we talk about things like honor killing, we know that that is not Islamic, that we are not the judge of anyone, that that is the job of Allah. And when we cross that boundary and begin to think that we are the actors of Allah, then we get into difficulties, then we get into problems between within our own relationship with our creator. We know that part of our beliefs of Islam have to do with accountability, that each person not only has the freedom to choose their own behavior, but they have the final accountability of all that they do. We know that each of us have those scales that will meet us on the day of judgment and that I will not take from your scale and you will not take from mine, even if you are my husband, my child, my parent. We also know that each, we cannot blame each other for one another's behavior and that it is the perpetrator that is solely responsible for their own behavior. So I can't say, you forced me to do that. You made me so angry that I offended Allah, that we know that all of our actions go on to our own scales. We also know, and it's so funny if you listen to these verses, it sounds like really and truly they were written for today, because it is some of the things that we hear today and that is looking at victim blaming. The blame is only against those who are, who oppress and commit wrongdoing and insolently transgress human rights and justice. We can never say it's those people's fault and those who having done something to be ashamed of or wronged their own souls because when you commit acts of oppression, you are hurting me, but you are hurting your own soul more. Bring God to mind and ask for forgiveness and sins and are never obstinate in persisting in the wrong that they have done if they are believers. So again, it is not about saying, it's all your fault. If you hadn't burned the dinner, if you were better behaved, if you did not go and do this, I would have not hurt you. I would not have done this. We know that this is addressed even in the Quran. There is some, I think there is some even confusion within ourselves about what does the Quran say about who we are as men and as women. We know that we have complimentary gender roles and we call that difference by design. That's not only true as men and women, but as communities. We are told that Allah made us distinct so that we will know each other and learn from each other that that is how we are made. That diversity is not an accident, but it is something beautiful and joyful and as a part of the creation of Allah. We know that men have been given leadership roles in the family and are financially responsible. And we know that as the concept of Guwama. We also know that as women, it is our job to guard privacy and the intimacy of the home as demanded by Allah, not by any person's standards, by Allah's standards. We know that there is an emphasis on treating women and you read this over and over and over again on treating women with kindness and without harshness even during divorce, even when we have to part that our parting should be peaceful and joyful. And that the role of leadership, both for our countries and for our homes is collaborative. And we call that short out, that we collaborate with other, that we talk with each other, that we make decisions based on information and guarding the rights of each person within the community or within the family. So I wanna take you to some of the actual verses and I want you to hear them. And I know that you know these, but I want you to remember them. Okay, let me go backwards. We know that the Quran prohibits verbal abuse. Oh, you who have believed, let not a people ridicule another people. Perhaps they may be better than them nor let women ridicule each other because perhaps they may be better than them and do not insult one another and do not call each other by offensive nicknames. Wretched is the name of disobedience after one's faith and whoever does not repent then it is those who are the wrongdoers. Again, I love these verses because they really sound like what happens sometimes. Ah, you are so stupid. Oh, you are a curse to our family. All of those things that we say and we hear that this in the Quranic times also and that we are told for eternity that this is not what Allah wants for his believers. We also know that the Quran prohibits emotional abuse. Imagine this is not even a word that was was in the thoughts or minds of scientists at that time but it will sound very familiar. Oh, you who believe, avoid much negative assumption, suspicion. Indeed, some assumption is sin itself and do not spy even on cell phones or back bite each other. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his brother when he's dead? You would detest it and fear Allah. Indeed, Allah is acceptance of repentance and merciful. And that's to say, not only are these things prohibited, Allah is watching but also Allah is forgiving. So when we make mistakes and we all do that we call ourselves back to, we call ourselves back to good behavior and we know this is true also in the Hadith. We know this is true in the example that we have of our beloved prophet, peace be upon him. A Muslim is one who avoids harming Muslims with his tongue and his hands. And in this case, they were talking about Muslims from another town, from another culture, from another group, much less your family, much less your spouse, much less your children. We also know that we have these amazing core values as part of our religion. O mankind, reverence your guardian Lord who created you from a single soul, created of like nature its mates and from them twain scattered like seeds to countless men and women. Reverence Allah, through whom you demand your mutual rights and reverence the wounds that bore you for Allah watches over you. What a beautiful mandate we are given that we are born to be complimentary to each other, that we are born in equity, that we are born to be treated with human rights, all of us, the idea of gender roles. So what do we do with these differences? O mankind, we created you from a single pair of male and female and made you into nations and tribes that you may know each other. Verily, the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is the one who is the most righteous of you. The one who has the highest status. And Allah has is full of knowledge and is well acquainted with all things. So even we know that within race, within culture, within gender, within economics, within education, those of us to be held up are those who follow best the words of Allah. It is not by gender, it is not by family, it is not by anything that we earn other than our goodness, other than our obedience. And then what should our relationships look like? Believers, men and women are protectors of one another. They enjoy what is just and forbid what is evil. They observe regular prayers, practice regular charity and obey Allah and his messenger is the opponent. On them will Allah for his mercy, for Allah is exalted in all power and wise. We as Muslims are called to live differently. We are called not to follow the traditions of culture where there is strife within the house, where there is anger and where there is hierarchy. We are called as believers to protect one another. And part of that protection is calling to attention when we are not following in what that sacred, what those sacred commands are. That we observe prayers that we practice charity and that we obey Allah. Now, what is the Quranic model of marriage? And I really want us to pay attention because I know we have all heard these verses, we have all seen them on wedding invitations and how different they are from the way that we commonly talk about marriage and why we get married. She's married to establish a household to have children to like I said, create beautiful grandchildren for our mothers to post on Facebook. What is really the point of marriage in the Quran, in Islam? And among his signs is this, that he created for you mates from among yourselves that you may dwell in tranquility with them. And he has put love and mercy between your hearts, verily they are a sign for those who reflect that our job, that our goal in marriage is just tranquility. It's just making peaceful sanctuaries, peaceful places for people to grow and develop and thrive as believers. And how spouses should relate to one another. What I said is imagine in our Quran, which is so full of right and wrong and justice, there's so much given to how we are supposed to live together. Nor should you men treat them with harshness. Live with them, the women on a footing of kindness and equity. This is not a modern thing made up by Western feminists. This is what our Quran says. This is our model that we are given in terms of our relationships with each other, within families, decision-making, right? So yes, men are financially responsible to be the heads of their families, but believers are those who conduct their affairs by mutual consultation. And that means all of their affairs, not just getting together and deciding what's going to be the next outing of the mosque or how we're gonna raise money to send for a particular campaign in all of their affairs. And then this verse of garments for one another. They women are your garments and you men are their garments. And what are garments? Garments keep you warm. They keep you safe. They keep you protected. They also adorn you. They're beautiful. And we all know when we have a beautiful garment, we take care of it. We make sure that it is well cared for because we don't want it to disintegrate. We don't want it to get dirtier. We don't want it to be hurt in any way. Now, we also have the beautiful, beautiful example of our prophet, our beloved prophet, peace be upon him and what he was like as a husband, right? So we know that he is the embodiment of the teachings of the program so that we can follow his example without question. That he publicly expressed affection, appreciation and gratitude. So the idea that we cannot praise people in public or that will make their heads get big or all of these kinds of things were not in our prophetic model. We know that he helped with household chores. We know that he avoided criticism and harsh language, that he corrected others' behavior gently and politely. We know that he used humor and was playful. We also know that he himself was peacefully divorced when that needed to happen. We also know that even when one of his wives was accused of the worst thing that you can imagine of infidelity, that he did not beat her, that he did not humiliate her, that he left the home peacefully, that he stayed away until those questions were answered and then he humbly went back and she gave him a little bit of a hard time. He humbly went back to ask her to join these households. What better of an example in even the Western legal system, this crime of passion if you find out or you hear that your spouse has been unfaithful and that you can beat them or shoot them or whatever. That is not what our own prophet Pesky upon him did. He served as our best example of separation and the verses we're gonna get up to next which are the verses that sometimes get us into difficulty. We know that conflict is a normal part of every relationship, right? And especially those who live closely together and share joys and difficulties. And what did our prophet Pesky upon him? How did he deal with his wives and his companions and even his enemies? We know that he listened and validated when people complained to him. And for me, one of the things I did during women's history month this year was to take a course on the female companions of the prophet and I was amazed by so many times when women were vocal about the fact, even about the lack of inclusive language in the Quran and how they were answered. When they went to the prophet and they went and supplicated they got answers and they got justice in many, many cases. We know that speaking and arguing are absolutely necessary in a community but that they're done in a kind and respectful manner. That sometimes the prophet and we all have to agree to disagree that we consult with others when there are questions that are bigger than any of us that need to be decided. We know that forgiveness, gentleness and patience are what were modeled to us in the lives of our prophet Pesky upon him that we give clear options even divorce when differences seem irreconcilable. And that sometimes we need to take time of art or take time out, let everything cool down before we make final decisions about anything. These are the beautiful examples that we have the strategies that are real life and that can be used in our everyday existences. Now I do wanna talk about this verse and we start here and we're gonna go from here on because this is one of the verses and we call it the abuse to burst, right? These are one of the verses that have been pulled out of context in the Quran and have been used to justify all sorts of things in the world. So we wanna take a look at them and understand what they really say. Men are the protectors and the maintainers of women because Allah has given one more strength than the other and because they support them from their means which is talking about financial support. And we don't deny this, this is true that men are there for the protection of their families and to take responsibility for their families. Now that does not mean just like leaders are there to lead their countries and to keep them safe and protect them. That does not include oppression, that does not include manipulation, that does not include force. That is our responsibility, not necessarily the idea of privilege or excessive right. Therefore, righteous women and our duvetly obedience are duvetly obedient and guard in the husband absence what Allah would have them for. And we are talking about of course that obedience to Allah is all of our jobs as believers. And this is very, it's a very beautiful verse because it's saying we don't do this just because our spouses say so, just because our husbands say so, we do this because we as believers have an obligation to Allah. And it is aside from or apart from or above even the obligation that we have to our spouse because we are believers and our first obligation is that of Allah. To those women on whose part you fear, disloyalty and ill-conduct issues. And when we talk about issues, again we are talking about very severe acts against the community or Allah. We are not talking about burning dinner or talking on the phone to their sister or other kinds of things. We are talking about offenses to Allah. Admonish them first, tell them, explain to them, talk to them and then refuse to share their bed so that they understand the seriousness of their actions. Now again, remember at any point you can also ask for a divorce and we'll talk about that in a minute. And lastly, what do we do with that, right? And that as you know in our communities can mean us a variety of things, a strike, a shake, a move away from depending on how your community uses that word. But if they return to obedience, seek not against them means of annoyance for Allah is most high and great. Now again, this does not say beat them. This does not say use objects against them. This does not say make them be humiliated. What it says is to call to attention in whatever way possible. And if we go to our prophetic model, Aisha, peace be upon her, reported the messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, never struck anything with his hand, neither a woman, a child or a servant unless he was fighting in the way of Allah. Again, we always go back to that perfect example that we have of what life as a true Muslim should look like. We also know, and again, some folks do not read far enough into this sort of to know that there is also Nisha's on the side of the husband. If a wife fears ill-conductual quality Nisha's or desertion or a virgin on her husband's part, there's no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves and such a settlement is best. Even though men's souls are swayed by grief, but if you do good and practice self-restraint Allah is well acquainted with all that you do. So we as women also have remedies for Nisha's. Now again, it's probably not the best idea to hit somebody who's bigger than you, right? So this is not something that we are consulted to do, but that we are given peaceful and amicable ways to separate ourselves from situations that are not livable, situations that do not respect our human rights, situations that do not bring us peace. So we know that this is for both parties. And we know that the divorce is a peaceful option. Now I know in many of our cultural contexts this is considered really something haram, something terrible, but we know that in the Quran and even in the life of our Prophet it is a legitimate option. It is an option that can be initiated by either spouse or an imam, and that it is regulated to prevent injustice on either side but really sways toward injustices to women because we know that in all times women have had less power and that needed extra protection because Islam is a religion, is a religious tradition about protecting, about human rights, about making sure that we are all cared for. And the husband should retain their wives on an equitable manner or let them go with kindness. So we know that this is our mandate. We also know that unfortunately, and I want you to imagine all of the things that I've just said and all of the things that we have talked about and how differently, unfortunately, this looks in many of our communities because somehow within our communities the idea of injustice, the idea of power and control, the idea of manipulation of what we call gaslighting, the idea of oppression has become so normalized that we believe that this is part of our religion and we act as if this is taboo and something we can't talk about which has put us in difficulty in terms of finding solutions for our families who are struggling, our families who are not living in peace. So it's very helpful for us to remember how I'm gonna start unmuting, how un-Islamic that idea is and how courageous we have to be, how really important it is for us to recognize and to talk about this within our communities. The other thing that we do, unfortunately, there we go, I have unmuted folks, I believe, that we do is to really ask ourselves to stand aside and not talk about oppression when we see it and this is really not who we are as an Umat. This is not who we are sent to be into the world. We are sent to be those true sayers, those human rights advocates in every way and in every way in our communities. Okay, so do we have questions, concerns, I wanted to leave some time open for you all and I'm looking, I believe that you can unmute yourselves at this point if we have questions or conversation that wants to happen. Good morning, Denise. My name is Mariman Nawin Hatak. Thank you so much for the great presentation. It's mean a lot to me and I'm sure for all the folks. So I just want to clear something about the arranged marriage. It is a, I was very educated person, you know, and I was in Germany, I was a medical student. So what happened actually when my father passed away, my mom has four daughters and one son. When the person, a family called my mom asked for, it's called my Rista, you know, like they want me to marry my husband, may Allah bless him, he passed away exactly 11 years ago. I was very, very the lucky person. I'm glad, you know, even I don't married him for 25 years. I'm almost crying, you know, because he was such a good Muslim, Alhamdulillah. Even though our culture was the same, but we're different country, Alhamdulillah, both we are Muslim and we are beautiful three children boys together. So I'm very, very happy to marry him. I'm always praying for my mom and then she did a good choice. Even though she asked me if you wanted or not, you know, that was my choice. Even though I was in the middle of the schooling, I said, mom, whenever you feel, you know, and I accept it, you know. So I just wanna let you know, it's a lot of times not gonna happen like that. And parents gonna, you know, give their daughter or son to somebody as a range. But I'm married for, married 25 years with him. And I was the luckiest person. I'm the cherry in guillots of the end of my life to be his wife forever. So I just wanna let you go. Absolutely. And I do wanna address, we didn't talk about arranged marriage, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with arranged marriage. We are not against arranged marriage in any way. As you said, in fact, Islam is set up so that arranged marriages are protected, right? So the idea is there's a difference between a forced marriage and an arranged marriage. A forced marriage is when the person says, I don't, I can't. I don't, you know, I can't marry this person. I don't feel anything. I am, you know, disgusted by them. I feel like I want to study for whatever that is. And Islam, the beautiful thing and the reason that we have marriage contracts and that a woman has to sign of her free will is that it's of her free will, right? And we know, Alhamdulillah, in many cases, marriages arranged by our wise elders, by those around us, turn out to be beautiful and perfect. And that is, Alhamdulillah, it sounds like you had a beautiful, beautiful experience and we are so happy to hear this. So the question is not about arranged marriage. Arrange marriage, you know, asking the family's permission, all of those things are, make strong and happy marriages. The question is when we move into the area of forced marriage and that becomes an issue of human rights. And again, this is why we have signed marriage contracts, right? This was to ensure free will in marriage. And Islam was, I believe, the first faith tradition that had, right now in Christianity and other faith traditions, the civil ceremony is signed, but not because it's a legal contract, but not the religious. We are the only faith tradition that has signed religious obligations because we wanted to ensure that women had that final say. And that's why we have marriage contracts even today. Thank you so much. So thank you for reminding us of that. We did not talk about that. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. We have other questions, comments. I know that you are all working with victims. What do you see as some of the confusion for Muslim victims as they search for services, as they search for relief from? Kiran? There you go. Peace be upon you. I just wanted to say thank you. It was good. I had a couple of questions. I don't know if you're involved with working with victims of domestic violence. I don't know what the background is. I kind of missed the first 10 minutes, I guess. So my question, because I'm not involved with Nisa either at this point, my question is that, you know, anecdotal stuff is great. I have a great marriage. You have a great marriage. But, you know, around us, there are women in our community who do not have a great marriage and they do reach out for help and support. Is there any data that Nisa has or you have come across? Because when you look at mainstream, there is data, you know, about domestic violence, divorce. And then it's broken down by community, ethnic bases. Do we and Nisa, or have you come across anything like that? Other than anecdotal, I have a great marriage. You know, it worked for me because obviously it hasn't worked for a majority. Ikid, so let me talk to you. So first of all, and I didn't mention this because I am a messenger, not because this is about me. So I am a licensed clinical psychologist with over 25 years working with trauma internationally. So in Latin America, West Africa and Palestine and working with women's issues in all of those places around domestic violence. So this is something that I work with every single day. You're licensed in America? Yes, yes, of course. Yes, okay, that's just the question. Yeah, I'm a clinical psychologist and I'm a professor of clinical psychology as well. Where do you teach? Sorry. I teach in Jametaneja in Nablus in Palestine via Zoom because I was unfortunately removed from the occupied territories. Different story for a different day. So I am, and I have worked with domestic violence in a variety of different countries and continue to do that. So I'm the executive director. I will talk a little bit about data. So I agreed. The model I think that the reason that we're talking about this is so that when women come to us, we can say this is not about Islam. This is not your position as a Muslim woman. This is about a perpetrator of domestic violence. And that's why we do this kind of training so that we know that domestic violence is not part of our DNA, it is not part of our tradition. It is specific to a perpetrator who sometimes is supported by a culture but that is not supported by our religion. So that's why we do these because aside from, unfortunately, the horrific told that domestic violence places on families and on victims is that many times they believe that this is God's will, that this is God's plan, that this is part of their responsibility as women. So that's why we talk about the things the way that we do. Now peaceful families does have a research department that is what we do. We conducted the only to date census of looking at domestic violence within Muslim communities that was done in 2011 and needs to be done again because that date is about 10 years old. We are working with a researcher who is moving forward to do a wide scale survey of domestic violence. Now the data of 2011 is actually kind of scary. Now this was, and I have to be honest, the sample was not representative. It was a very highly educated 70% of them had bachelors or above. I think 65% of them were earning over $50,000. So these were, and this was 2011. So these were a very sort of middle class Muslim population. And we found that over 51% of Muslims either had direct experiences with domestic violence or had somebody in their immediate family who had direct experience with domestic violence. So we know that it's in Muslim communities. We know that it exists in our mosques. We know, unfortunately, because of the horrific, very public cases that have happened where women have ended up giving their lives in this unfortunate, unfortunate, horrific kind of crime. So we are aware of this seriousness. And there is a fair amount of work in these days. And if you go onto our page and look on our research, we have research around forced marriage. We have research around domestic violence. We have research looking at the effectiveness of training. So one of the things that we do is to train imams because we know that many times within our communities, that's where people will go. Unfortunately, our imams come from many different traditions and almost none of them have a mental health background or have a background in advocacy and domestic violence, which is why we do the work that we do. And I will take this advantage of this to talk about, so what do we do? For those of us, and I know that you guys are working on a board or working with a board for domestic violence and that is a step for a domestic violence service provider. That is an amazing step, but there's so much more that we can do as Muslim communities in terms of supporting victims. One is that to believe people when they speak, to not, are you sure? Well, he seems like such a nice guy, but he's in the mosque praying five times a day, to really believe without asking questions. The other thing is that we are able to offer services like you are doing. I'll catch the two questions when I'm done, to offer services that are Muslim-based because most of our women, when they go to look for services, they don't have a Muslim-based therapist. They don't have a Muslim-based shelter to go through. They go to mainstream services, and those are many times very discriminatory, not very helpful, talking to them like, well, you just, this is part of your religion. You have to leave your religion. We also have to talk about domestic violence and domestic violence prevention all through the ages. So one of the things that we have coming out in October, inshallah, is a youth curriculum. So that we begin to talk about this in the beginning from children at a very young age, and especially around when people are making matches when they're looking for partners, and to look for red flags, to not accept things that don't feel like an Islamic marriage to you because of secrecy, because of violence, because of all sorts of things that are disrespectful of each person's human rights. So all of those things are really important as well. And then of course, awareness. Okay, I'm going to go to the Afghan coalition. You guys want to... Yes. And then we'll go to Nermeen. Go ahead. Okay, yeah, Afghan coalition, I believe that you can unmute and you can speak. Oh, can you hear me? Yes. Hi, my name is Weedam, advocate with Afghan coalition. We do see some challenges, like maybe this is a little bit off topic. We do have some women that they are facing domestic violence and they're not in such a good environment, but they're afraid of coming forward. There is a lot of resources available to provide, but when we reach out to them, first they tell the story, then later on they change it and they're scared of somehow how to come and how to kind of let us support them and help them and take them out of that situation. And what we can do around those type of people to bring it, so they have more understanding of their rights. Okay, beautiful, beautiful question. Thank you so much. So it sounds like you're a little bit of a mainstream service provider in that, although you're working with Afghans, you may or may not be working within mosque, working within places where people go. So the first thing of course is to have, to educate the Imamists in your area to work with religious leaders so that women are hearing this same message all over the place. If only service providers are offering this message and the service provider are seen as outside of the community, it's hard for women to have complete faith in what you're saying, not because you're not amazing and wonderful, but because you're different. We do know that sometimes people need to hear from within their own community. They need to also have protection from begin within their own community. We also know that some of the things that work within Western communities don't always work for our folks, right? So shelters are very essential, but don't always work within the community there. We know that getting a job and becoming independent may or may not be something that the woman was. So that we have to really look at, which is why we focus on research as well, is to look at what's the full range of service that we can offer Muslim women that may be different than what we offer other kinds of women because of their religious belief, because of their cultural structure, maybe because of immigration issues, all of those kinds of things which sometimes come up and that keep women in difficult situations. We also know that leaving cannot be the only answer. Many times we also have work with men and men's groups. We have, everybody needs to learn about domestic violence and how it is an affront to Islam, how it is against the law of the United States, those kinds of things. If we only work with women, if we're sort of like preaching to those in need, we have to bring men into that conversation as well. We need to have men's groups working on this issue so that it becomes a community-wide issue. It's us as Muslims against domestic violence, not us as women against men or us as more modern Muslims against more traditional Muslims. It is us as a group of Muslims against practices of domestic violence because they are human rights offenses and part of oppression and we don't want any of our people to be in. So what I would suggest in terms of getting women to be more comfortable is, and we also know from the research that it takes between seven and 12 times for a woman to tell her story in a situation that is not changing for her to be able to move in many times. So even though women don't lead right away, you're planting seeds, you're giving them resources so that they can make needed changes within their life. So every effort that you make is important, even if from your point of view, oh, she went back or she dropped the charges. Everything that we do makes a difference in the lives of that woman and that family. Nermin, do you wanna unmute yourself and ask your question as well or make your comment? Okay, do you, you can unmute yourself? Some of them come. Bismillah Khmerim. I just had one question which was, do we have any data on how often topics of domestic violence are actually being brought up in the massajid, whether it's a Qutbah or in those kinds of situations? Or do we have kind of any commitments from Islamic institutions that they're gonna have an ongoing conversation and how often they're gonna do that within the year? Alhamdulillah, that's an amazing question. I don't know whether there's great data. As you can imagine, it's kind of hard to gather the data of how many times, asking your mom how often they talk about this, right? Peaceful Families does have, I believe, I wanna say a 10-year history of training imams. So we do an annual except for last year because of our lovely friend COVID-19. Up until then, we do a yearly an annual training of imams. I believe there are over 120 imams currently that have had Peaceful Families training around this issue. If you look on our website, we have two resources for imams who want to begin to talk about this. And this year we are doing a research on how much of a difference that training makes. I think not only Qutbah, the difficulty is not only talking about domestic violence, but the very difficult position that imams are placed in, especially culturally specific imams who have specific linguistic skills who may be the only support within their community and are asked to juggle many, many, many things including domestic violence when domestic violence may not be their strong suit or may not be their specialty. So I think one is we need to talk about it more but we also need to support imams and help them make those kind of relationships with the domestic violence advocates and service providers within their community so that they have a resource to refer to because many times they feel very, very responsible for their community, are afraid to bring in other kinds of service providers. And that's when things get complicated. And when there are errors, I know, if God forbid a woman gets injured or her life is taken, that takes such a toll on our religious community because there is so much guilt and so much responsibility felt. So I think all of those things are important and we are working on that but I think it's a fascinating study for somebody who wants to do it to really look at local imagines and find out how frequently we're talking about this because we'd like to imagine that this is a Western issue and that it doesn't affect us at all and we know that that's not true. Other comments or questions? I actually, can you guys hear me? So I can. Peace be upon you. My name is Saha, I'm with Nissa. I've been with Nissa for many years since 2006. So I wanted to make a comment or respond to what the question that came from Avian Coalition. I would say what I would suggest based on my experience of covering the help line and working directly with the clients for many years is when we work with community members who seem to be facing challenges as far as really making that decision to take the next step, I would say it's really important to meet them where they're at. A lot of times there's gonna be barriers that we may not understand, right? Like somebody's, we know on our end, we know that they should leave and they should go to a shelter and seek services but they're not really, they don't have that level of clarity and they also are aware of all the barriers that they're facing. What I would suggest is again just listening to them, validating, acknowledging that yes, this is not an easy step but also empowering them with resources. And what I usually do, and I'm Avian as well and usually when I have clients who come from that background where there's a lot of reluctances, I provide a bit of information about like what Islam says about domestic violence and oftentimes I ask them what are your views, right? Because a lot of times there are misunderstandings in a lot of culture that's integrated in the understanding of Islam. And a lot of times just asking them questions will lead them to reflect, right? Like if I ask a client, you know, like, so what are your views about Islam? Do you think Islamically your, you know, a lot tells us or expects us to endure and be patient in the situation that you're in? Chances are, you know, it's more likely that that client will think about it and come back with no, actually, I don't believe God wants this for me versus me telling them, well, no, that's not what you're supposed to take, right? So really being patient with the process and my experiences with those clients with whom I've been patient, it may have taken them longer to make that decision but it's more permanent where I remember when I first started with working with Nasa, of course I was a lot younger too, you know, there's more tendency to wanna tell them what to do. And my experience is when we do that, even if they decide to seek help and maybe even move, chances are high that they will go back versus they take their time, they really think about the different options. And I think studies also show this, right? That if it's their choice, then the chance that it's more permanent is higher. Beautiful, thank you so much and you made me think of two other things. So one is that we may think that we know what is best for folks that they should leave, that they should go to a shelter that she could, but we also know that the highest risk of violence is when a woman decides to leave. So for those sisters who tell us, I can't, he will kill me, that's not an overstatement in some cases. Sometimes that's fear. Sometimes that's knowledge that we don't have. We don't know that person. So we do know that the likelihood of a fatal injury in domestic violence is more likely when someone is taking positive steps. So we need to take very seriously when women tell us, I can't, you don't understand, I can't. So that's number one. Number two, I think you're absolutely right and it's a beautiful learning. That's why I love when we have advocates who have been advocates for a long time and we don't lose them because you learn over time, right? So if we give someone easy answers and we tell them what to do, we are no different than a perpetrator of domestic violence because the perpetrators of domestic violence also always tell people what to do. And there is this idea that someone is, and that's what they tell them, right? You're so stupid, you can't figure out things for yourself. And then we kind of reinforce that by saying, no, why are you staying? This is a bad decision, you need to do this. Women or victims, because we know that it's not always women, victims need to come to the realization that they are in charge of their own self, no matter what they can be, and that they are the experts of their own situation. And sometimes that's a struggle for those of us who get into our mind that we know more than them, we know more than Allah, maybe we know more than everyone and that we have a vision for what we want to happen to them. So it's really important to follow the lead of the people that you're working with because they know more than we do. They know their situation better than we do. They know their strengths better than we do, and they know their risks better than we do. Okay, I know we have just a few more minutes. Can I just add one thing? Thank you. For the previous speaker, thank you so much for the input, but I just wanna use your experience as if you know, like when you interview an Afghan woman, and they're hesitated because we are Afghan, we are Muslim as well, and they're very declining of the situation, and they're like, oh, you guys are Afghan, and I don't want my name to be in the community, and you cannot use my name, you cannot use my last name. We live in this community. And those type of challenges and situation, what is your experience with that? If you can just share it quickly, thank you so much. And that was for me, right? Yeah, that was for you. Yeah. So I would say those fears and the hesitations are real. I would again, meet them where they're at. I often tell a client who says, I'm not ready to disclose my identifying information, I tell them that's your choice, that's okay. This is a big step that you're taking to even open up at the level that you are, and I'll meet you where you're at, but also reassure them about confidentiality. Unfortunately, a lot of people from our cultures, that concept of confidentiality doesn't exist, right? So that fear of I'm gonna tell this Afghan woman my story and she's gonna turn around and shared with the community is very real, right? And I've actually worked with professionals who unfortunately do disclose and leak information. So some of that is also real, right? So really reassuring them that confidence that Afghan coalition that we take confidentiality seriously, but also letting them know that it's important that they go at their own pace, that we don't have expectations and they said that the pace themselves. Again, usually my experiences when I take that approach, they make progress and move forward a lot faster than if I tell them what to do. And we can certainly have a conversation, maybe even a training on how to respond to this community, to the community needs, we can connect. I work closely with Seema John so we can definitely do something. And as PFP, we would love to have an Afghan specific webinar. We would be so happy and would be more than helpful to sponsor that for you guys if you pull something together. Because each of our communities has special needs. I think confidentiality is a question for all of our communities, especially when we're isolated and close-knit. We do a lot of what you said. The other thing is to just bring it up over and over and over again. I give them like ridiculous scenarios. So even if your mother calls and she's honored at that, I will not tell her what you said. Even if I show them this is where the files go, nobody, you know, and we reiterate and reiterate and reiterate because really it is kind of a firing concept in many of our communities so that we need to sort of overdo it around this idea of confidentiality and what we can say and what we can't say in under what conditions. And we also need to be honest about things like child abuse and things that we have to report. Because I know that's also a place where people feel betrayed when those reports have to be made. So yeah, if you guys are interested in doing an Afghan-specific webinar, let me know I would be so happy to be able to give you guys a venue to do that. Yeah, and one last thing I actually wanted to add is also us as community members being very mindful of how we maintain the confidentiality of these clients because I know like working in the Afghan community, I run across a lot of the clients that I work with, like just a couple of weeks ago I was at a funeral and one of the community members would reach out to Nissa and I'm also a therapist with the Khalil Center, she was also a client with me, a client of mine at Khalil Center and when I saw her at the funeral, I really didn't acknowledge her, right, that I know her. And then later she came to me and she said, she laughed, she said, do you remember me? I was your client and I explained to her that yes, because you're my client, I leave that for you to, if you wanna come up and acknowledge that me, that's your choice, but I don't wanna do that because I don't wanna anyway breach that confidentiality and she was actually surprised. So the more we as professionals implement that and behave in that way, I think the community will also learn that we do take the confidentiality seriously. Assalamu alaikum, Denise, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Again, it's okay and we're getting full to the end. Yes, so the question it had was for Saha, I've been a long-term supporter of Nissa, but my concern and I always wonder what happens to these women, what is the future once they've taken that step, now they have been placed in a shelter, what is the future for them? Are they a long-term resident or are they provided the skills? Are they ever gonna be able to live on their own, maintain their own lives again? I mean, what's the future for them? I've always wanted to ask that and thank you for providing this platform to do so. Yeah, so maybe we can also address these questions outside of I guess this training, but just briefly I'd say the progress and that clients make depends on a lot of factors. We have, I would say majority of our clients, go to a shelter, they transition to a transitional home and eventually actually transition into their own independent living and maybe have a job and some go to school. And a lot of that progress depends on how much effort they put in, right? And also their level of education and training in the past, right? So if we have clients who start with ESL, that progress is gonna take a lot longer than somebody who has a college degree. But I would say majority of the clients that we work with don't just depend on the shelter and transitional home long-term. I see. Well, thank you so much. Thank you, everyone. We do need to finish up, unfortunately. I am so glad that we had so much conversation and so much excitement. PFB, I suggest that you go onto our website, sign up for our newsletter, our social media kinds of things, give us any suggestions for future webinars you would like to see or hear. That is what we are there for. I am so grateful for your leadership, for inviting us today and offer you all salam but also strengthen all of the work that you are doing. So thank you all so much and let us know any ways in the future that we can be helpful. Jazakalacha, Denise. I wanted to thank you also on behalf of Nissa for taking the time out to seriously just educate us. Mashallah. It was a very, very informative training. Love your energy. Love your passion. Love the content. And I am hoping in the future we will continue to collaborate and offer more trainings like this. And Jazakalacha once again, a huge thank you. And thank you for everybody for joining in as well. If you need to also find out more information about Nissa and the services that we provide, you can visit our website at www.asknissa.org. And then any questions that you have pertaining to like just the one that we've just had as to what happens to the sisters who do end up coming to the shelters, what services are provided for them and how they progress on. We appreciate those questions. And once again, thank you for your time. Enjoy the rest of your day. Denise, thank you so, so much once again. Jazakalacha. You are amazing. Awesome. Mashallah. Thank you so, so much. Jazakalacha. Take care and salam alaikum. Aleykum alaikum.