 They say it's the most important election in history. It's coming up on Tuesday, and we're going to be talking all about what it means today on The FeeCast. Hello, and welcome to a very special Friday before the election FeeCast. My name is Richard Lawrence, and we are here today with a fairly reduced panel. But I think our conversation should be just as lively and informative as ever. We have Dan Sanchez and Mary Ann March. Welcome. Thank you. So we are sitting here three, four days before the midterm elections on Tuesday. And of course, it's hard to avoid hearing about it, despite whatever bubbles we're in. And we keep hearing that it's the most important election ever. Well, it tends to pop bubbles. It's like even apps will just remind you to vote. Like just random apps, like Spotify. Like apps that are not even political. Like one Spotify ad says, oh, these are songs that are popular in this state where people are polling at this time. Just like it's so forced. And it's so like the get out the vote propaganda is just really strong right now. It's an interesting advertising scheme, because that's essentially what Spotify is doing, is they're trying to get people on their platform, and they're using this hot moment of the elections. It's so important that everybody is talking about it, even including your favorite apps and advertisers. Our former panelist, Brittany Hunter, who still writes for Fee.org, actually posted on Facebook, hey, Brittany, something about another app reminding her to vote. And it may have been Spotify for as long as I know. I was actually lifting it straight from Brittany, without giving credit. Sorry, Britt. And so it seems like every year, every election, but every year now, because everything is political year round, things are getting more contentious. I mean, I don't think it's any secret that we've all had arguments, probably, with our family and friends, to one degree or another, online, offline. And I'm just sort of wondering what that's doing to either civil discourse or sort of the culture at large. It's really hard to have conversations. And I think it's important to note that this is a big election, just because it's a big election. All members of the House of Representatives, those seats are up for grabs, 435 spots, and then another 35 Senate seats are up for grabs as well, in addition to some more local elections. But it's tough. I, even just discussing current events with friends, gets bad fast. And you've got to be a brave soul to wade in there, I think. What's that game, six degrees from Kevin Bacon, or seven degrees? Yes, six degrees of separation. I think that's the way topics are. It's like everything is like six degrees from Trump, or even fewer. It's just like every subject of conversation can somehow take a Trump turn. It's a minefield. You just can't get away from it. It's funny, there are a few different bubbles that I inhabit. So I've got my sort of economic liberty and personal liberty bubble that we are exploring here at fee all the time. I've got my Apple bubble, because I'm a huge Apple fan. We were talking about the new laptops earlier this morning. I've got my Star Trek bubble, because I'm a huge Trekkie. People out there didn't know that. This is something I can go about for hours and hours. Can you do the hands? I can. But I can only really do it with my right hand. My left hand is incompetent at doing the Live Long and Prosper Vulcan salute. But with all these bubbles that I inhabit, I've got music bubbles too, because I play music. It's a funny thing, because political conversations happen within them as well, right? And it's impossible to ignore. And we were looking, you and I, or no, you and me, Marianne, were looking at Apple website the other day. And we were looking at how they disclaim the way in which they block political conversations. It's not allowed if you have 100 or fewer posts within their forum, right? You have to have 100 or more posts in order to weigh in on anything from net neutrality to there's a new story on students working on assembly lines for Apple in China. We're developing new rules for the way in which politics has permeated everything. Yeah. Even on a site like Apple, that's interesting. I didn't even know that they discussed politics at all on their sites. Well, it's not Apple itself. It's a news site related to Apple news. Oh, I see. OK. Yeah, on tech news sites, there's just tons of politics in there, like any kind of cultural site, it's just pervasive. And so whenever people say to me, this is the most important election in history, I kind of have a moment of like, why are they saying that to me, right? Or what's their agenda? Because now is what's most important to us, Richard. We don't care about a year ago, two years ago. Now it's true in that sense, every election, if you're concerned about that being the way to change the world for the better, is the most important election ever. I mean, because it's the only one that's going to affect things going forward. And so in a very literal sense, it is the most important election in history because it's the only one that we have anything to say about today. On the other hand, everybody has their own agenda. They're trying to push. And so you kind of always have to ask, why are they telling me this? What do they want me to do? These get-out-the-vote campaigns you see everywhere online, are they aiming for a particular candidate? Most cases they are, in fact, doing that. And so it's just kind of interesting. In every area where we're sort of getting this message, politics is the only way to influence change. Well recently at a rally in Las Vegas for Nevada Democrats, former President Obama had this to say, not voting this November would be profoundly dangerous to our country, to our democracy. So when you have somebody that is well respected like President Obama saying that it's do or die almost, then that's really motivating to a lot of people, or at least we think it's motivating. We'll see what actually happens at the polls because traditionally midterm elections don't produce that high of a turnout. For the past 100 years or so, it's been roughly 40%. And the highest voter turnout for midterm election was in 1966, that was only 48.7%. So even just under half of eligible voters are coming out for these midterm elections, they're saying, though, that this turnout should rival the last presidential election. We'll see, I mean, for the last 100 years, it's been about 40, so even 50 would be record breaking. Yeah, well, and it's very coded because it may sound like it's just sort of civil service announcement. Just in general, get out to vote because you need to participate in our democracy, whoever you're supporting. But because it's coming from Obama, it's implicit that he's saying, get out to vote against the Republicans in this midterm election so that we can take congressional power back and weaken Trump and then hopefully lead to a momentum to unseat Trump later. And the same thing with these Hollywood get out to vote because everybody, it's also implicit that it's like, okay, well, it's a Hollywood actor. Nobody's expecting them to be unbiased about this question. Yeah, it would probably be a little dangerous to make a prediction, but I'm gonna make one anyways, which is essentially four years ago during, or excuse me, not four years ago, but during Obama's midterm. First it was the Democrats controlling the House and the Senate, and then midterm election came and not so fast, Democrats. And I think that's what we're going to see again here is that the Republicans control the House, control the Senate. There's a strong push right now for Democrats to go out to vote. They wanna flip it. And I wouldn't be surprised to see it, but I think that just adds to the interest and the contentiousness as people really feel like we're taking back whatever, we're taking back it all. Hey, you know, they say the pendulum swings for a reason, right? And so people become dissatisfied with the outputs of a certain kind of government situation with certain representatives or executives. And then they say, we want something new, and so they end up going to something else. But this time the dissatisfaction isn't all about government itself. It isn't so much all about the policy as it is about the personality, I think. I mean, there's just something about Trump that elicits such a visceral hatred among his opponents that you didn't even see with Bush or Republicans before that. I'm gonna ask you guys a kind of two-part question. And this is a little cold because we haven't talked about this before, but I think you guys will have some pretty interesting opinions on it. Why is everything political today? And it's been trending that way for the past few election seasons and cycles. So it's not, I don't think, particularly on Trump. But more importantly, I think, what is the harm of making everything political? I think that the role of government in the economy and in our lives has been growing in a lot of ways. And so really that raises the stakes. Because then you really, it's a matter of who is able to persecute whom. And you wanna be the who and not the whom. And so you really want to influence which party gets into power so that that can be the case. Wait a second. Is it really about persecution? Cause that's a pretty strong word. In people's minds, yeah. Sort of retaliation? People feel persecuted and they don't wanna be persecuted. And they wanna take what is rightfully theirs. And so they never think that they are persecuting other people. But in a lot of ways, they are. Like if it's about taxing the rich so that you can get free college, if you believe in property rights, then that is persecution. Yeah. Oh, sorry. I just wanted to, we may go back to the first part of your question, Richard, about why this is happening now. And I think I wanna conjecture that partly it's because politics is everywhere right now. It's in silly sitcoms on TV. It's in our advertisements. I think especially because- So in Twix bars this Halloween, you've got left or right Twix bars with red or blue. So I think that because it's just everywhere and the things that we're consuming, it's getting inside of our brains, whether we're active participants in watching news or not. It's these kinds of tribalist things are getting into our heads and it's being expressed. So even friends I have who don't like the news, who don't follow current events, they still will pick up on things and it comes out in conversations. Right, right. So to address the first part, and then I'm sorry, what was the second part of your question? What's the deleterious or the bad effect of making everything political? Just a lack of enjoyment in life, I think, because we're not discussing the great things that happen. Why would we? There's not a problem to be solved. So I think that our discourse naturally leans towards the problems. And sometimes I just wanna sit back and enjoy life. It is really good. I read a headline the other day that said, if you end up not reading the news, you are a lot happier because you realize living in this country is actually not so bad as it's portrayed on the news. Yeah, I mean there's talk about people having you know real psychological damage from the election, actual like post-traumatic stress disorder. And people, even when it doesn't get that bad, it really preoccupies people. It really like it's a good part of their day is wringing their hands about politics. And I do wanna say for a moment, I think it's important to affirm that when people express PTSD symptoms or otherwise are truly upset about the election, that's a real feeling. And so that's a consequence of making everything political too. And so I wouldn't wanna diminish that people are actually feeling that way because we know that they are. And we wanna- Well perception is reality. It is, absolutely. And so we wanna help them out. And I think one of the ways to potentially help them is to continue to change the culture back in a way that not everything is so contentious and political where I win, you lose, or vice versa, right? And so I wanna take a moment here because we all win when we go back to fee.org forward slash shows because that's where our content from all the fee casts and various other shows that we have going here at fee are located. And in fact, we are also this very fee cast, your weekly dose of economic thinking is also located in audio only form on Apple podcasts, on Spotify, and on Google Play. And so everyone should check that out because we're not only a bunch of talking heads here on video on Facebook or YouTube, but we're also for your enjoyment in the car or when you're on a run. So now I wanna kind of delve a little bit more deeply into, again, some of the bad effects of making everything political. And we've seen this in the news recently with tragedies. One in Pittsburgh, of course, at the Tree of Life synagogue where 11 people were killed by a gunman expressing anti-Semitic views. Another act of potential political violence, it was actual violence, was the failed mail bombs to various people of influence, primarily in the Democrat Party, but also in the mainstream media. And I wanted to talk a little bit about sort of, it almost seems, and I think it's fairly mainstream to say these acts of violence are being perpetrated right now because the election is coming right up. It's almost as if, again, probably mainstream to say, they wanted to influence the elections by these acts of violence, which are horrendous and terrible and tragic. And I'm wondering what the connection that you see is between the fact we have the most politicized culture ever in this country, everything is about the election coming up on Tuesday. And we also have these terrible acts of violence that in American history are not very common when it comes to electoral politics. Well, yeah, so the mail bomb perpetrator that he sent the mail bombs to certain people that Trump had vocally criticized and to CNN who Trump criticized a lot. And so you might think that he was motivated for that reason and whether or not he actually thought that he could influence things that by like threatening these people that he's going to silence them that's going to hurt Trump, like it might not even be as practical as that. It might be to the extent that like, oh, he is my tribal leader and they are insulting my tribal leader and I'm going to defend them. And of course, someone like that is mentally imbalanced and is suffering from break from reality in a lot of ways. But that is basically the thinking though because politics does make things very tribal, very visceral and very anti the other. Right, it sets you up against other people. And nobody likes to lose, especially if we've established, well, I'm on this team and the other team looks like they're doing good. I'm hearing that they're going to get this kind of turnout on election day. It's scary for people to think that they're not going to win. And we talk about the stakes being really high and every year more so than the last year. And when it gets that serious, people do take it to heart. And then with the synagogue shooting, I read some things about the shooter maybe thinking that basically being motivated by anti-Semitism because George Soros who is Jewish was like funding the caravan which is the caravan of immigrants which is like an invasion of the country. And so again, there's just these conspiracy theories and this animosity, this tribal animosity and hatred that politics stirs up can lead to extremism. And then when those extremists pop up, people I think just reactionarily try to squash them down because it's ugly, we don't want that in our society but that has the unfortunate effect of just making those people feel like they're the ones who are being repressed. That me and my views are not palatable to the rest of the world and they're silencing me. And so I don't want to speculate on the psyche of these people but it seems like that would not be helpful especially when you have a person who's maybe already prone to violence. I think a lot of the conversations that are happening with a very political feeling in our current national dialogue are reflected also in pop culture, right? And so I've always been a big fan of sort of these shows that show post-apocalyptic or alternate histories because it's always just so interesting to look at. And one of them is The Handmaid's Tale. I read the book in high school or middle school and of course that's a hit show that I think we've talked about in the past here and that's obviously reflecting a lot of political concerns, legitimate concerns that people have. Another show I really enjoy watching and I'm about to buy the book because I can't wait to actually see how it ends up is The Man in the High Castle which is on Amazon and it's by Philip K. Dick. It's all about an alternate history in which the Germans and the Japanese actually won World War II and they ended up taking over the world and carving up the United States, the Japanese have the West Coast, there's a neutral zone and then there's the greater Nazi Reich that controls most of the continental United States. And so the reason I bring this up is because when you see things like that, I think it's very fictional. This is a very fictional world in which Jewish people no longer exist for all intents and purposes, various people who are religious because of course the Nazi regime was very anti-religious. They don't exist anymore. All sorts of other people that were persecuted by that regime for being different or not within the bounds of their ideology, they're all gone. And it's enjoyable to watch something that's fictional. And then this thing in Pittsburgh happens. And then you wonder to what degree is this actually the world that is not fictional? Anything can happen. Are you saying we're in a simulation? We're all holograms. Anyway, it just sort of all brings to mind that nothing is ever totally stable. There are things that can happen that can change the course of events. Again, the reason that people say this is the most important election in history is because it's the only forward-looking one, right? It's not the one that hasn't happened yet. But it makes me feel sad, again, that we still have to have these conversations. And it is a fact of life. We need to have these conversations that different people exist in the world and that it's important for us to have tolerance, to understand difference, to continue to breed cultural exchange. And I guess that's the task that we have at hand, but it's kind of hard to remember that sometimes. I think it's also important to remember to even be tolerant in the face of intolerance. Because as Marianne raised, a lot of people are using political violence as an excuse to restrict speech. And a lot of times Nazis do come up in that regard because they say, well, that's the ultimate exception. Like there's a whole meme of punching a Nazi that Nazis represent such evil that if just from expressing their beliefs that gives you a right to punch them. And so then, but then once you accept that, and then it just becomes a question of who do you classify as a Nazi? And a lot of people can have a very expansive definition of what constitutes a Nazi. Anyone I don't like. Right, anyone I want to punch. Anyone who I want to silence with the force of government. What a great excuse. Oh, that was harmful. Nobody can hear this. That's, you know, this harkens back to some really disturbing things from our historical memory. And I don't know, it's the visceral reaction of wanting to punch somebody. We have to overrule that with our rational brains. It's not acceptable to say that somebody said something ugly to me and I lose all control. That's not how it works in a civil society. We're all responsible for our reactions. And restricting speech is a Nazi means. So taking a Nazi means to silence Nazis, it's like, well, what if that power ends up in the wrong hands? Yeah, the hands of your worst enemy in fact. Exactly. And so how do we sort of move past this coming Tuesday? So we're gonna have an election right. It's gonna be the most important in history. It's gonna set up the government for the next couple of years at least and it's gonna set up our conversation for all of 2019. So what sort of ways can we, as individuals, help to reduce the amount of political violence, also the amount of vitriol between people of maybe different views online or in person, what are the steps we can take going forward? I think commerce. I think reaching out and starting a business, creating jobs, selling things, reaching out. I mean, I just think that if you take a break from looking at the news and look out your window, you'll realize that amidst all this political angst that basically we are living in harmony, that every day people are exchanging goods and services, are helping each other out. A lot of times people who are politically opposed to each other, as long as the six degrees from Trump doesn't get crossed. And sometimes that does happen and so even in restaurants you'll, we've seen videos that go viral on Facebook of people having altercations and so it even bleeds into that but the more that we can engage in private enterprise and engage with each other as human beings as opposed to enemy tribes, then the more we can diffuse this. I think a lot of people would say that's a very nice theory, Dan, but tell me how it works in practice. What would you say to people who say, commerce, we do it all the time, we don't really think about it. How is that a solution to a situation in which the stakes are so high on the political side? Well, I think it reminds you to value the other person and regardless of which side you're on, if you're the person who is doing the service for a customer or a client, then that person is giving you money which helps you live by groceries and put gas in your car and then on the other side, being the receiver of services and goods, that doesn't just come out of nowhere. Somebody has to be there and deliver that to you and by living in a society, instead of all just being one man islands, we have much better lives and we live longer, so enjoy it. Longer and wealthier lives, it's true. I'm just kind of thinking back to the conversations I might have with people who have possibly different political views than I and thinking that seems like, for us a no-brainer answer, but most people don't recognize the power that trade and commerce have in our own lives to make each other less alien and to actually foster voluntary interaction which is the exact opposite of what happens when you go into a voting booth and you vote either for or against something that the majority are essentially going to tell the people in the minority what to do. Yeah, I guess in addition to showing our appreciation to each other through commerce, I think I would just suggest for people to find something to do. And I don't mean to be flippant about that, but I think that when you're able to focus on something and be passionate about something that's constructive, that you live a much happier life and the politics maybe doesn't matter as much because you have something else to fight for instead of just hoping that your vote will do something. Sorry, I've been called a cynic when it comes to politics for it or not. Well, a lot of it is good thinking for us to really consider here. So we're gonna get past this. It's all gonna make sense in whatever result that happens, right? I think the bottom line though from our perspective here at FI is be sensitive and notice the interactions that we have that are not political and maybe focus on expanding those on growing your interest in not telling people which way to vote one way or the other but actually appreciating this wonderful, wealthy society in which we live and noticing, I think again, that it's not just come out of nowhere. It comes out of a situation that we have where people are permitted to trade peaceably, where they have the benefit of the fruits of their labor where people can associate and speak freely with each other on their preferences, on their terms. Those are the cornerstone ideas that got us to a situation where we are today so wealthy that we're able to take a lot of time and a lot of money to argue about it amongst each other. So it's kind of one of those things that the chicken or the egg, right? I mean, did politics create this great society? No, it didn't. This was created by free people interacting with each other on their own terms. I think if T.K. were here, T.K. Coleman who was on the last episode, he would say to remember that you are the principal agent of change in your own life. And to not look at figures like Trump as either someone that you can outsource your agency to or as an excuse to not have agency as someone who's preventing you from empowering, growing in your own life. Take your own responsibility for your own life. Well, we're gonna have to leave it here. So whatever happens next Tuesday, I'm sure we'll be talking about it. In the meantime, have a great weekend. Find us on Google Play, find us on Apple Podcasts and find us also on Spotify because we're there and ready to be listened to if you'll have us. So have a great weekend, everybody. We'll talk to you next time on The FeeCast.