 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today we have with us Natasha Badwar. She's an author, a filmmaker and she has also been associated with the Karwai Mohabbat, the campaign against hate crime for the last couple of years. Karwai Mohabbat has been active in providing relief to the riot affected in northeast Delhi. And we're going to discuss what are the requirements of the people over there. Welcome Natasha. Hi. Hi. Natasha, you know, what are the immediate requirements of the people in these areas? There have been immediate requirements from the day the violence started. For, you know, one of the unique things about this violence, this what is being called writing, is that it is in the capital city of India. It is so close to the center. And it's live on social media in a sense. So as soon as something happens, the video of that is viral on people's WhatsApps. So we immediately know what is happening there, which means that there is immediately a need to respond to those, to the people. So starting from, you know, sending in the police to step in to stop the violence, if the police is not being able to control it, calling in the army, the paramilitary forces, to sending in people to provide safe spaces, safe passage for those who were trapped in the violence. Things that did not happen. None of these things actually happened. Things that did not happen, they happened only because communities mobilized themselves. So people helped their own neighbors. They happened because civil society came together. So, you know, not only the Karwane Mohammed, but a group of organizations and individuals who kind of loosely, you know, called ourselves the Citizens Collective for Peace. And we set up help lines. We started, we put out our own numbers, our own Twitter handles. We started getting SOS calls and we started mobilizing safe passage. In all of this, it's for people. In all of this, is the government doing anything, either at the center or the south? Certainly the government did not move when it needed to. The government needed to move immediately, both the state government, you know, the newly elected state government, as well as the central government, yeah, because the police is directly under the home minister. The areas, counselors, MLAs are ruling MLAs of the Amadmi Party. And so both of them needed to move immediately. They didn't. Okay, once the violence has happened and the rescues have taken place, people, you know, the violence is subsided. It's time for the relief to step in. But relief did not step in immediately. So civil society was trying to fill in the gap and with your best intentions, you cannot do what the government machinery can do. You know, you're training yourself on the job. You just come together. You don't have the wherewithal, the machinery immediately, which the government does. Right. They didn't. And it was as late as yesterday that the Delhi government started to say, if you have a problem, call this number. If there is a health requirement, talk to this person, come for a meeting. That was too late, too little, too late, literally. So now what are the necessary objectives that need to be fulfilled if you are going to provide any kind of relief? Is it safety? Is it the ability for the people to go back to their work? What does the government need to do now? Literally many, many, many things. But if we organize it into, you know, so first of all, it's safety. People need to feel safe. You've been to Mustafaabad. We've been to Mustafaabad. People who have run away from their homes in Shivvihar, which is one of the worst affected colonies, where each Muslim home has been targeted, where schools have been burned down, mosques have been desecrated. People who have escaped from their homes have, you know, it's literally 500 meters away. They've crossed a drain. They've come into Chaman Park. They've come into Mustafaabad, into Babu Park, Babupur. And they are not able to go back home. They are scared that if they go back to even see what their home is like, they might get attacked again and there have been incidents. So safety is number one. Number two, you need to give them safe passage. You need to escort them back. Groups of people from civil society are doing that voluntarily. You know, we took two families home a day before yesterday. Yesterday, another group of volunteers took many families back home so that they could pick up what was left of it so that they could see what they have lost. That is something the government needs to do is actually, you know, police is standing there, paramilitary is standing there, but passively, there is no sense of safety for the victims. So that's number one. After that, you need immediate relief. The relief camps, government has access to schools. It has access to stadia. It has access to large open spaces. Civil society doesn't. Right? So we are dependent on the goodwill of each other. Somebody is giving a house, somebody is giving a school, you know, a mosque is opening its door, a gurdwara is opening its door, but the government has access to much larger spaces and none of that has been mobilized, but that's number two. That you actually create a space where temporarily people can get a semblance of normalcy back. So that's where they can get health care. They can get legal aid. They can get some psychosocial care. They can sit down and figure out where they go next. How do they reassure their children? How do they file those FIRs? After all, crimes have been committed. So all of these things need to happen, which means that large scale relief camps, temporary relief camps, but definitely camps with all the amenities need to be set up. Natasha, one of the things again is that we've seen a lot of Muslims become refugees overnight. Absolutely. And then you have other Muslims, of course, Sikhs and Hindus also, but mostly Muslims helping Muslims. Now this is a very bad signal for a country, you know, where you help the people who belong to your community and the government doesn't. So, you know, how does one restore these ties? I mean, I know this isn't the long term, but that should also be perhaps something of the government's mind. Yeah. So if we hear the stories on the ground, one of the reassuring things is that these are not communalized areas. These are not even segregated areas. You know, there is a, one of the, I think it has the highest density of Muslims in any area. Northeast Delhi has a very high density of Muslims living among Hindus. But on the whole, there is no segregation. So even if you drive past the main roads and go into the inner lanes also, you will see the targeting. So three homes are fine and then the fourth home is gone. Then the sixth home is gone. This shop is fine, then that shop is gone. Schools are gone. Mosques are destroyed. Mandirs are standing. So there's been a targeting in terms of the attack, but people were living very, in a very syncretic way. And people have also responded in that way. So that is the experience that we have had every single day. And the people who are providing help, who even provided the safe passages right in the beginning, were not only Muslims, but also a lot of Hindus trying to save their neighbors. They were, these were not people who were harboring hate for their own neighbors. A lot of the talk is about we don't know who the mobs were, who came from outside. You know, so one of the families, for example, that one that our volunteer went in to rescue. The young people in the family had already come out. They had left an elderly father behind and where had they left him? They had left him with the Hindu neighbor. You know, who was giving him safe message? So there have been innumerable stories of people, Hindus hiding their Muslim neighbors in their home and then calling and saying, we don't know how long they are safe. We don't know how long we are safe. So you need to intervene. So on the ground, the divide is not so sharp. The divide is extremely sharp in the response of the state and in the response of the political class. So we have news today that Kapil Sharma has run a fundraising drive. He's collected 71 lakhs, but only for Hindu victims, right? But when the Sikh community opened the Gurudwara's, they did not say this is only for one community. It was for all communities. When we have set up relief camps, they are for all communities. And the other difference is the way in which even the chief minister is speaking. Three people from the government, you know, three government servants have lost their lives. There's an IB officer. There is a constable. And there is a third person. He's naming the Hindus. He's forgetting to name Muhammad Anise, who is a Muslim, whose home was targeted. He's also a government servant. He's also going to get compensation. So that's where the divide is happening. And we really hope that some kind of enlightenment is going to dawn on the people that we have elected as our own government. Natasha, about the children, because there are a huge number of young people and children, school going, college going, very young employees and workers. What happens to these children? What are the special requirements? You know, when we first went into the relief camps and you know that their entire livelihood is destroyed, if they had a shop, the shop is gone. If they had a tailoring set up at home, that is gone. If there was an auto rickshaw, that is gone. And you think everything is over for this person. But when you talk to them, the things that people are saying, My child's year will be ruined. And you think that's a small matter. But no, for somebody whose life was absolutely normal till yesterday, it's not a small matter. It's as big a matter as it is for anyone else. And I'm thinking, if nothing is left, it's your child's year. But those are as they would be. Those are the concerns of people. I mean, there are people who have gone back because they left their goats behind. There are people who have gone back because they left their dog behind. How can you abandon something that's a part of you? And these are the things, these are the small details that make up a normal life. So when you try to build it back, you are collecting the pieces together. So children are really, really hard hit in the area. One, because the immediate shock and trauma of losing your home, of seeing your elders traumatized, having to wake up in a relief camp in somebody else's home. You don't know where your food is, you don't know where your clothes are. So till yesterday, you had a safe life and now suddenly you're a refugee. Besides that, their schools are burnt. They know their schools are burnt. Their school bags are gone. Their uniforms are gone. And a board exam is looming. They don't have the admit cards to go and take the board exam even if they want to take it without studying. So the appeals that are being made are to the CBSC. Can you delay the board exams? I mean, after all, there's been a pogrom in the capital city. Right, right. So now, you know, one of the things that's always on my mind is, you know, when do we say that the relief work is over? There will be people who have been damaged permanently, whether it's their health or it's their business, their homes. So what is the end game that a government should have in mind when they start out? Government's civil administration, you know, this is really their work to step in during emergencies, right? Otherwise, people take care of their lives. They pay their taxes, their lives run smoothly. Governments are trained. And civil administration is trained to know how to respond, to know how long things must last, to know how to peter out help, to provide help in such a way that it becomes unnecessary after a point. Because what is it that people need? Their livelihoods are destroyed. They want to rebuild their livelihoods. They need compensation. They need another place to go and stay in. They need the small little benefits like, okay, this child will be allowed to go to the next class without having to take his final exams. These are the medical facilities that you will be able to avail in these hospitals for this period of time. This is the legal aid you need. We are setting up a legal desk. If you set up everything as it should be, you will not have an unlimited period of having to provide relief. But if you don't, if people are not able to rebuild their lives, then they will be rendered homeless. And you extend the pain indefinitely. Then their trauma will become long term. So it's the nature of the relief. It's the nature of the goodwill with which that relief is provided, the organized way in which that relief is provided, which will decide how long people need relief. Because remember, people want to go back to normal lives. They don't want to be right affected. They want the day before. And it's really a question of someone's dignity. You don't want a life in which you are dependent. You never were, despite their poverty. They weren't, and they don't want to be again. So they have the highest motivation to want to move out of the relief period and to become independent again. Thanks so much, Natasha. Thank you. Thanks for joining NewsClick.