 to finding your piece of the rock on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm your host, Abe Lee. I have been a licensed real estate agent since 1973. I'm the owner of Century 21, I-Propris Hawaii, and work with close to 100 wonderful agents in real estate sales. I started AB seminars in 1980. I have taught over 11,500 students to help them get their real estate licenses. I have taught continuing education classes for licensees to renew their licenses every two years. Our show is dedicated to helping buyers and sellers understand the process involved in a real estate transaction, our special guests will talk about legal issues, escrow, title, getting a loan, surveys, home inspections, insurance, contracts, wooden trust, and much, much more. Today, we're especially privileged to have a terrific architect and a planner, and his name is Phil Kemp. So, Phil, thank you so much for being with us. Thanks, Abe. My pleasure. Now, I met Phil several years ago because he took my real estate class. And I knew he wasn't a regular realtor to be. So I said, Phil, what are you doing in this class? He said, well, I just wanted to know more about real estate because I'm an architect. That's how we got to be friends and have gone to lunch every once in a while and we see each other at business meetings. So I thought, I'm going to have Phil on my show because he's got some really interesting things about his work and how it affects housing. So Phil, tell us a little background about where you grew up and your education and how you got involved in architecture. Sure, Abe, I love your art. A little bit, I know it doesn't look like it, but I am a local boy, a boarder raised here went to school at the Elani, went away to go to school in the mainland at USC and then had a good opportunity to work several places before I came back home, worked abroad in Singapore and then probably about a decade in Los Angeles, working on a large scale, mixed use multi-family projects up and down the West Coast before coming back home to bring that experience back to our local market. And then the other thing that's fairly unique that maybe not everybody knows about me and our practice is aside from being born raised here, I grew up in the construction trade. So our family owns and operates the largest scaffolding and showroom company, State of Hawaii as well at the sales. So ever since I could drive in the high schools on jobs, I used to bring scaffolding and showroom. So it helps bring a unique perspective when we're designing projects because I don't just look at it as an architect, but I think about how our contractor partners are gonna have to build it and support it and then how our owner partners are gonna have to maintain it and look after it when we're done. So yeah, we're very fortunate on both sides of the coin as you might say, coupled into our experience profile. Well, that's great. And besides that, your brother is, I guess the president of the scaffolding company who I've met once or twice, but your assistant law, she's really famous in the real estate lending business. Kathy, yeah. Kathy's at a CBB these days. So both my brothers run the day-to-day operation for our scaffold operation. I'm still an equal partner, but I'm not on the day-to-day ops. Obviously I have my hands filled doing architecture, but yeah, we were very fortunate to have some, everybody other than me, maybe Akamai family members that are understand design and the construction industry. And your wife was also a partner with you. So she has her own claim to fame in her field of business. She is, she's my partner in more ways than one, but she's a very valued partner for hierarchy. So as I mentioned from Southern California, that's where I met her. So her family, which is a partner in team to our team here in Honolulu, she grew up doing a lot of mixed shoes, but more specifically a lot of civic and industrial, institutional buildings of schools, a lot of things that engage with the community. So we really make a pretty unique common where I do a lot of the mixed shoes, multi-family, and office industrial. She'll do the civic, institutional, and public outreach engagement. So helps make a well-rounded team where we try to help our client partnership. Great. Now as I looked at your website, you talked about focusing on sustainability and importance of ongoing education to be able to use these tools and resources to benefit each project, large projects and their impact on the housing market. So can you amplify on that? On the sustainability front? Well, yes. And the importance of ongoing education. All of it, as you know, education is a huge part of what you do, I was fortunate enough to participate in your class, I learned a lot, I always look at it as putting more tools in my toolbox. So not just understanding fee and title ownership and, because we have unique real estate roles here in Hawaii and even though I was born and raised here, it's always good to know more about it so I can help our local partners. But on the sustainability front, we just think it's really important that we're born here and live here and I don't plan on going anywhere. So how our design impacts our communities, it's really important to us, a lot of other teams and not the local teams, but say a mainland team if they're not focused in Hawaii, they don't live here, they may not care so much about the impact. But we absolutely think about how our buildings will impact our community around. So being on an island in the middle of a civic energy is a huge issue and sustainability really digs into energy consumption, but not just energy consumption, just how a building withstands its longevity. So are you gonna be continually maintaining it or ripping it apart to make it operable or are you thinking about those things as you move forward? So similar to your class, I think I found myself to become a lead certified professional. So for those who are familiar with lead, it's a leadership in energy design. So I usually look at that as kind of bricks and sticks of design. I'm also a well certified professional. So well is related to health and wellness so where lead focuses on bricks and sticks, well focuses on the people and the occupants within. So, you know, us humans. And then I'm also a certified energy manager and a certified construction manager. So to our GC partners, I'm always looking at, they have a huge hand in delivering good projects, right? We can design the greatest thing, but if we don't understand how our contractor partners are gonna bring these projects to life, it doesn't help our design. So I took it upon myself to understand the construction management side of that equation as well. So we can really help our client partners deliver. Now let's talk about lead because some people in the industry know what lead is. In fact, I've taken classes on lead because I was interested in how do you create energy efficient buildings? But tell us more about what's involved in getting a lead certified building and also a well certified building because I have not heard of well until I saw your website. Yeah, no, for sure. So lead, generally the overarching umbrella for lead is the United States Green Building Council. The founding member of the person who really was representative of starting lead was Rick Friderisi. He broke off and started the well initiative and so they're very similar part and parcel through Rick Friderisi's kind of presidency and leadership in setting both of those groups up. As far as going through certification processes, typically have a lead certified professional such as myself or the general contractor even the owner. And then you're pursuing a certification process as you go through design and construction. The process will entail prerequisites so there's certain things that you have to do just kind of baseline criteria. And then there's a scoring chart that allows you to approve additional points so you could be lead certified baseline certification, silver, gold or platinum as a highest level from the lead perspective of certification. And really it just elevates the benchmark of sustainability. It's not just energy conservation, there's natural daylighting because the amount of natural daylight that gets into a space impacts how people operate and talks about air quality. That was a huge issue that really people are starting to take interest in after COVID. Water, turbidity or the flatliness of the water that you consume. Most people thought that was gonna make any sense and nobody wanted to hear about it but then you heard about Flint, Michigan and then our own close to home, Redhill. It really impacts people. So the spaces we design and build absolutely have an impact on how you live. And then from a well perspective that's the health and wellness of the people there's this rule that we talk about. It's called the 33300 rule. And the general premise is you spend about $3 a square foot on utilities, about $30 a square foot on rent and by far and away, and this is related to office buildings but by far and away in any structure or any business that most important and costly for the people. And that you spend about $300 a square foot. So when you're looking at things and fear you say, hey, I wanna conserve energy, that's great. We're all for that. But that's turning the knob, that's the $3 a square foot knob, right? But if you can increase the health and wellness of a building and make it better for the occupants, reduce sick days, make them more attentive when they are at work, that's turning that $300 a square foot knob. So if you can improve the user interface and just the work experience of your employees, it's there's absolute economic returns on that. So that's where the well component comes in is focusing on the people. So now you think there's a gradation system, you think about silver, gold and platinum. How many buildings that are being built, say in Hawaii or on the mainland would hit that platinum level versus say, silver or gold? I mean, do you have any numbers? Ooh, I wouldn't have numbers. So it also depends on what market you're working. So for instance, for a long time and still in some of the federal markets, so government projects, military projects, NAFAC and the such, for a long time, they had a baseline standard that all the buildings had to be at least lead silver, I believe. So if you were looking in that sector, it'd be 100% of the projects for a time. It's not necessarily the case in all sectors of the government. And then also as you move through the US, there's different areas or globally because it's not a US centric platform, it's international, Hong Kong, you're all over the place. But if you use US as example, there's certain markets that will have more lead certified projects and it resonates with the buyer or the occupant or the building owner. And there's other markets where it doesn't really register and maybe there's not as much value. So there's a perceived value which might resonate in your market, say a single family home buyer. If they don't know what lead certification is, they're not gonna pay any more for it even though it means the building's healthier. But in a market where it's widely recognized and they know it's a certificate that confirms that that building is in fact the higher level of sustainability in a market that's well-recognized, they'll pay for, right? So it really depends, I don't know if that's a long-winded way of saying I can't give you a firm answer, but it depends on which market you're in and which locality you're in. And like I said, like if you're in a government market where it's required, then 100% of those projects will be lead certified in other markets, maybe not so much, but even like, say, Howard Hughes, that's a big part of their deliverable requirements. So if you look at most of the Howard Hughes projects in Coca-Cola, they have a pretty high level of lead certification, a lot of platinum ongoing projects on their portfolio where other development teams may not have that lead criteria. So they, and or they're not as interested in pursuing it. So, you know, it's important to their core machine. So they have a lot of... I know that large residential developments, developers like, say, Gentry or Castle & Cook or Hopi Lee, do they have some sort of lead certification for their buildings? Some of the developers do, like I mentioned, Howard Hughes certainly does, some of the other production builders, maybe not so much. And then there's other instances, like, say, you're doing two-one-h project, affordable housing projects, the state will mandate or request sustainable certification of some sort, typically lead is usually the most recognized. And if you're competing, sorry, for subsidized dollars or tax benefits and all the developers are in that market, if you can deliver a project that's really sustainable and has a high level of lead certification, you're more likely to win those tax dollars than, say, a project that doesn't. So you'll see a lot of two-one-h projects that are lead-certified. So our whole lane, for instance, that was an affordable rental in Cock-Ackle. Two-one-h project was a lead platinum project that helped us achieve two-one-h approval, our callable affordable housing project in Princeville, also lead platinum. So, you know, we really looked at the sustainability concept to help curry favor with the state because the state wants to incentivize high-level sustainability for their occupants if they're going to be paying and helping to fund these projects. They want projects that are going to last a long time. They're not going to be a draw on the energy grid and consume a ton of energy. So they're looking at the long game, right? I went to a seminar a few days ago or maybe a couple of weeks ago, and the speaker was talking about how they were looking at even recycling the brown water. And then, of course, making the building energy efficient by the way they directed where the wind flow was going to be and to reduce the air conditioning requirements or whatever. So do you folks think about all that while you're designing? Absolutely. I mean, you know, especially, and it's somewhat of a misnomer because, you know, a lot of people say, well, we shouldn't have lead certified projects in affordable housing because it increases the cost. And, you know, that's really a misnomer. If you're thinking about it from the onset, you know, it can be a real benefit. So for instance, that coho pool project I mentioned was a lead platinum project we designed. We intentionally located and allocated windows in that project as it rotated across the site. And we looked at the wind pattern so that those buildings could all be passively ventilated. So no AC, right? So and they're still cool when they're occupied. So when you ask someone that needs affordable housing, what's the best thing about affordable housing? It's that it's affordable. But if you go design, you know, low cost solution that is so hot and miserable that they need to run AC all the time, no longer is affordable, right? The rent might be low, but they're paying a huge energy premium just to keep the place livable. So we absolutely look at that. And I think that has to be part of your affordable housing project, but at any level, if you can reduce energy and make it more comfortable, make that user experience a better one and not depend on energy to do that, that's a great solution. So yes, we absolutely look at that in all of our projects, whether they're affordable or not. Okay, so now Phil, amazingly, half the times we're on already, and so we only have half left. And it's a fascinating market, but you talked about for affordable housing, for doing larger projects, it is actually more cost effective when you have a higher density. And then it's gonna cost less per square foot. And the people, you have more people that can live in Hawaii and not have to go to the mainland as we call it the brain drain. So can you talk about one of your projects that you've done on a residential, how long did it take to get the entitlements and then to get the permits and then to finish the project out? Yeah, so I'm asking a good question, Ibrahim, and the answer is it varies, obviously. And it depends, typically when you're talking about entitlements, you're talking about getting land classified for new groups. So say something like a core range or something like that. Those guys are working through that entitlement long before the final architects are really engaged in working with land planners and attorneys, because in that case, you're changing a use, say, ag land to a different facility. In the case of, say, of Kale-Holane, most of the entitlements are there, or in fact, that was an urban infill project. So the zoning was already there, but we still had to go through what might loosely be qualified as entitlements, really more zoning approvals because that was a 2-1-H project. And in that 2-1-H process, we were looking for increased densities to allow more units, and then every reduction in parking so we didn't have to provide as much parking that wasn't necessary. So a lot of times, your baseline code would require a certain amount of parking. Let's say, in the case of Kale-Holane, we're immediately adjacent to a TOD stop. And even before the transit stop gets there, this bus stops all around and it's in the center of Kakaoka. So the reality is people living there can walk and bite to just about anywhere they need. So building a ton of parking, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So that's a good project where we reduce the parking below the code requirement and they still don't use all the parking in that building. So that's a great example because it's so centrally located and when the transit gets there, you would think it's going to reduce even further, right? So that stop has yet to be built, but there's still tons of bus and walking and biking opportunities and you can walk to downtown from that location. So now, I know in our notes as we prepare for this interview, you said some entitlements could take one to 15 years. Yeah, so that might be more like a coal ridge or a whole building. These are master plan developments, right? So they have to go through a ton of approval processes up front. And we're talking, you know, hundreds of acres of land and massive infrastructure projects so roadways, freeway off-ramps, sewer provisioning, water, power, all that stuff. So when you think about the undertaking that has happened before you even look at designing one single unit, I mean, that's a big undertaking, right? So those are the ones that you maybe take 10 to 15 years because there's so much that has to happen before you get to the first one. And then on the, say, an urban infill product like Gale Lane or these hover juice projects or any of the vertical powers in downtown, the infrastructures there, the roadways are there, the sewers there, water powers there. And the zoning is generally accepting of the use that you're planning on designing towards. So that sort of entitlement is different. That's more just getting your final approvals. So when you're talking about 10, 15 years, that's a huge project that you're going into. So like, hopefully that was sugar before that became a project, right? So you're moving from acres and acres and acres of sugar cane to building out and designing the required infrastructures for an entire community. So all the sewer, all the water, all the power, all of those things have to happen and that's a big and heavy lift and costly lift that has happened before you get to your first risk of entry. Well, I've read on some of these larger projects, these developers had to go to court to basically win over the ones that were opposing it, saying, we don't want this project. So again, you're adding several years and added costs to the project. Yeah, that's a huge deal. I mean, the NIMBY agreement, not in my backyard, we try to replace that with the YINB. So yes, in my backyard, and there's always that stigma about this traffic with additional outsiders coming to your community. And that's what we think TOD, transit-oriented design and development is important because it's confiding the infrastructure for the smart growth. So instead of building a community, say way out on the fringes of the island and all those people out of the drive all the way to downtown to get a job, if you can develop an increase of density around a transit stop and increase the infrastructure for sewer and water and power, to get those people moving back and forth is way more efficient. So that's what we talked about, the economy is scaled from a bigger project, a vertical project. I mean, you can imagine if you have 500 units and they're stacked vertically versus 500 units that sprawl out across 50 acres, every one of those dwelling units in 50 acres would require a sewer line and a HECO line and a water line going to every one of those houses. But if you're stacking it vertically, all of that infrastructure is dramatically reduced. So you can quickly see how that economy scale really helps and makes good sense when you're really trying to increase density and deliver affordable housing. And now the entitlements is that once with 15 years, now how long does it take to get a permit for, let's say a high rise? Yeah, that's a somewhat of a weighted question, even though you'd like to put me on the spot with these tough ones. But no, I'm kidding aside, it really depends on where the project is. And if the project is already entitled, you're not looking for it as own news change or any of those kinds of things. You can probably, for a bigger project, you're probably from suit to nuts going, I would say 16 months to two and a half years. Now that's from submitting or starting to having an actual permit. But every project has other opportunities to export like that. So one of the things we typically do, and this comes from a lot of experience working on bigger projects in Los Angeles, we used to do the same thing, would break the project apart. So we do foundation-only permits and then vertical project permits, same building, but we could focus and get the foundation-only permit released first, maybe say in six months or four to five months. And with that foundation-only permit, the contractor can start that foundation work. So sometimes that foundation work, auger cast piles and all the underground utilities and infrastructure foundations that could take four months, five months on a big project, maybe three months, but depending on how complicated the infrastructure and underground foundations are. So during that time, they're actually out there working and then you'll get the permit for the vertical tower. And then even on the vertical tower, there's ways to export like that. If you get through most of your plan check and permitting process and at least complete the first round without any major issues hanging out there, like say infrastructure or service capability, you can pursue an SAI. So it's a special assignment inspection. And that would allow work on the tower to start before the permit. It's finally finalized in real life. So there's a lot of ways to tackle it if you have the right team. You know, it's a little more complicated, but those big projects aren't easy. They can take a lot of effort, a lot of time. Okay, now we're down to the last three minutes, Phil. Can you give it? And let me ask you, your job as an architect, once the building starts, you're involved in every phase of what happens, like the concrete's poured, the building's framed, and all the internal stuff, your job must be huge in inspecting that the building is being built according to your design. No, it is. I mean, that's a huge part. That's probably one that I take, well, I wouldn't say most seriously because I'm very much care about the design and the early phases, but having grown up in the trades, like I said, I grew up as soon as I could drive, get a license, I was driving a forklift at our tractor trailers and delivering scaffolding around the island. So I understand what our construction partners are going through. So I try to be a big part, I try to go out and help them and I understand that there's not too many that I had comment from Dredging on one of our projects, like you're the only architect I've ever seen climb scaffolding. So we're inspected in exterior windows and the iffy sweeps and the drainage, but yeah, but we also have to lead on our construction partners because they're out there day to day, every day and they're doing their own quality control and quality assessment. So we're just an added oversight to that, but we do take it seriously, it's not, we don't just hopefully the best because there's so much that goes on in the construction process and to deliver a great product, the more hands, the lighter the lift. Yeah, you certainly don't want buildings to come crashing down like the one in Florida. No. But the whole condominium just went down. Yeah, no, that's a horrible story for sure. I think some of that was in fairness to their design community. I think a lot of that had to be for maintenance. And that's a big part of every building as well. You know, I mean, when you go through home inspections, you see the same, two homes, same age, one's taking care of well and one's not, it's like two different buildings. If you don't maintain a building, it's a living, breathing organism, right? So imagine if you didn't take care of your health for 50 years, right, it'd be a problem for sure. So, you know, people really, you know, that operations and maintenance phase and that's what we think about when we're designing to make the operations and maintenance fire. Because if you can't maintain a building, no matter how beautiful it is, it's not gonna last. Well, Phil, I just got the word that time's up. So thank you so much. No problem. Phil lives with high RK LLP. And if you look up his website, you can see a lot of the work that he's done, very extensive and very interesting, very diverse. So look up Phil, he's a great guy and really easy to talk to. And I really enjoy sitting down with him having lunch or breakfast or whatever. So thank you so much, Phil. And those of you that want us to look at the video later, please tell your friends about this wonderful interview. And if you're interested in learning more about seminars, real estate classes, go to ablyseminars.com and I teach those classes. So thank you so much, Phil. Appreciate your time. And I appreciate you're making the time to be with us today. No, thank you so much, Abe. I appreciate it. I always love talking about a four of miles in and working in our community. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks a lot, folks. See you later. Aloha. We want to announce that Think Tech Hawaii is moving into a new phase and will not be producing regular talk shows after April 30th. We will retain our website and YouTube channel and will accept new content on an ad hoc basis. We are also developing a legacy archive program to provide continuing public access to our content. If you can help us cover the costs of the transition and the development of our legacy archive program, please make a donation on thinktechaway.com. Thanks so much. Aloha.