 I welcome the meeting of the conveners group. I have received no apologies. I will wait for a colleague, but I am sure that she will be back shortly. The meeting is in public and your microphones will be operated automatically. I welcome the first minister to the conveners group. The meeting will be around an hour and a half. We have agreed to focus today Esc particularly ispówseidw bidieraidd, and so on, the Scottish Government's programme for government, but, inevitably, conveniently, conveners will want to touch on other more general issues, so I will be applying the usual leeway to allow that to happen. Some conveners have indicated that they wish to raise more than one issue, and I will do my best to call all conveners at least once. I ask for brevity in both questions and responses as far as possible. As with the previous meeting with the First Minister, it would be helpful if we could start with some general issues of interest to the committees before moving on to the more specific ones falling under the programme for government, but therefore start with some questions around transparency and accountability. I invite Martin Whitefield, convener of standards procedures and public appointment in this committee. I'm very grateful, convener, and good afternoon, First Minister. You may be glad to know I only have one question sort of lodge, which means I'll take about 45 minutes over it. I think that was the agreement. My question is in relation really, as I'm sure you will expect about the scrutiny that this Parliament can give the Scottish Government, which I know you have indicated in the past that you're very much welcome. But in particular, I was going to ask you about the committee system that we operate here, because obviously the committee system is the backbone of the process of holding the government account, the scrutiny of bills and other items. It is the intention of my committee to look at some depth into the work of committees, probably principally in relation to bills. Really, it was just to give you an opportunity to firstly put on the record, I hope your confirmation of agreement of the importance of that element of our system in the Parliament, but also to say whether you have any concerns at the moment about the committee system. Can I thank Martin Whitfield for the question? Can I thank you, convener, for the opportunity to be here today? I will also try to keep my answers brief, given as you may be able to tell. I am battling a very serious case of the man flu as things stand, but I'll do my very best to power through. Today, in relation to Martin Whitfield's question, I am very interested in the work of the committee. Indeed, our Parliament, I should say, is still a very young Parliament. It is right that its procedures continue to evolve. In fact, just after the back of summer recess, we know that there has been some tightening up of the time taken for questions and answers, for example, so we can get more questions and more scrutiny of the Government, which is something that I absolutely welcome. As a Parliament, it is absolutely open to continual evolution. As a Government, we will co-operate fully with the work piece of work from the committee. I think that the committee system has absolutely got its strengths. We can see that in terms of how committees around this table have significantly influenced legislation, often ensuring that the Government compromises and makes compromises where it can. However, I am open for any discussions and proposals on how that system is improved. When there are specifics, I can give an absolute guarantee to Martin Whitfield that we will engage constructively. There may be some recommendations that we agree with, some that we disagree with, but we will be upfront about that. I certainly welcome that piece of work from the committee. Thank you. I invite Kenneth Gibson, the Finance and Public Administration Committee. Thank you very much, convener. Good afternoon, First Minister. My question is a very straightforward one with regard to budget transparency. At present, during budget debates, members often quote different figures, like apples and oranges, in relation to whether spend has increased or decreased. In the interest of transparency, will the Scottish Government present alongside the Scottish budget details of what was actually spent the year before the current year, and what the planned spending will be in the next financial year so that Parliament can accurately compare that information? I am very open to that. Kenneth Gibson has made a couple of occasions, and it is a very fair challenge to us indeed. We want to be as transparent as we possibly can. I am very proud of the decisions that we have made in relation to our budget and in particular in relation to progressive taxation. I will be very open to doing what we can to publish that level of detail, because Kenneth Gibson is absolutely right. Transparency will absolutely help in relation to some of the arguments that are made around our budget and around taxation. Thank you very much. I invite Edward Mountain, convener of Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee. Thank you, convener. Good afternoon, First Minister. Obviously, how we achieve Net Zero is critical to the remit of the Net Zero Committee. Can you explain how you will show the Government's aim to reach their Net Zero budget in a bill, and when the first bill will be where this is shown in detail so that it aligns with your Government's objectives? First and foremost, I would say that, of course, we are committed to producing our climate change plan. We have to do that. Of course, the cabinet secretary stood up last week on the back of the UK Government's announcements that we will have an implication for when we produce that plan, because we have to understand what the impact is of UK Government announcements on our own plans, particularly in relation to electric vehicles and facing out-of-petrol and diesel cars. The climate change plan will give some detail of how we intend to meet those targets. In terms of future budgets, of course, in our budget at the end of this year, the cabinet secretary for finance will make it really clear how we intend to invest in our Net Zero commitments that will help us to achieve our Net Zero targets. First Minister, you mentioned the climate change plan, and I'm aware of what the cabinet secretary said last week. It was probably the most open secret in this Parliament that it wouldn't be produced by Christmas this year, which was when it was forecasted. My question to you is, when will it be produced? Will it be produced in time to allow the climate change committee to have full sight of it before they do that and your report to this Parliament? There will certainly be the intention to give the climate change committee as much notice as we possibly can. I don't think that it was inevitable that it was going to be the latest, not my reading of the situation. I can see that Edward Mountain has a different view of that. In all seriousness, we have to understand the implications, particularly around the facing-out-of-petrol and diesel vehicles. I think that Edward Mountain would accept that, if the UK Government has a different position, what does that mean for, for example, the internal markets act? What does it mean for those who may purchase a car from down south and therefore be used in Scotland? What are the implications of that? What I want to say unequivocally is that our position remains that we will not shy back from our own commitments. We are very committed to the various different timetables and milestones that we have to meet our interim targets. I want us to be seen as a climate leader. I think that that is in quite stark contrast to what we saw from the UK Government last week, so we have no intentions of rolling back. I think that the committee that Edward Mountain chairs does a very good job of holding the Scottish Government to account in relation to the fact that we haven't met those targets recently and narrowly missed the last set of targets that came out. So there is a job for all of us to do in ensuring that Scotland continues to show that level of leadership. Thank you very much. Richard Leonard, convener of Public Audit Committee. Thanks, convener. First Minister, when you attended the convener's group in May, you said that you would, and I will quote, you absolutely commit to reviewing and examining what more the Government can do to be as transparent as possible. So can he tell us three things that you've reviewed and examined over the last four months? I don't have a list of the things that we've examined. One aspect I've asked the Minister for Parliamentary Business to look at and engage with even external stakeholders is how we ensure that we are meeting our obligations to Britain parliamentary questions and FOIs. I know there's been some considerable external commentary as well as internal commentary in this Parliament around what more we can do in relation to meet those targets around freedom of information requests. So I've asked the Minister for Parliamentary Business about that, and there was a serious need for us. There was long-standing FOIs that hadn't been answered, and I delegated, in fact, made it a point to discuss in Cabinet how we quickly respond to those outstanding freedom of information requests and also parliamentary questions. I suppose the third thing, because FOIs, parliamentary questions, I suppose the third thing was during the course of the summer there was a fair bit of understandable media attention on credit card purchases from the Scottish Government. So I asked the permanent secretary to look at the processes, and that's still under way. I've had, I think, an initial response back from the permanent secretary on his examination of credit card purchases from the Government and how we ensure we're transparent and, of course, that any spend that is being made is appropriate, so those might be three areas, but I'm sure there's certainly more that we have done in the space of the last four months, which I'm happy to write to the convener, and that can be passed on to Mr Leonard. Last week, the Public Audit Committee took evidence from Transport Scotland on the Barry Smith KC inquiry. In the interest of transparency, will you publish today the terms of reference for that inquiry? I'll certainly look into it if we're able to do that, so I will explore if that is possible to do. I genuinely believe, particularly on the issue that Richard Leonard raises, we should be as transparent as we possibly can be, so I will certainly look into that and come back to the committee if we're able to publish the terms of reference. Thank you, Richard. We now move on to the Verity House agreement, and I'm going to invite Ariane Burgess, convener of local government, housing and planning committee, to take forward the questions in this section. Thank you, convener, and good afternoon, First Minister. This is a question around Government accountability. The committee welcomes the progress that has been made toward a new deal with local government as set out in the Verity House agreement with this significant devolution of power to local government. How does the First Minister envisage the role of national government changing, and how will Parliament be able to hold the Government to account for delivering on shared priorities when so much decision making will rest with local government? First Minister, I think it's an exceptionally important question and I'm really grateful to Ariane Burgess for asking it. For me, it was exceptionally important to get over the line in the first 100 days. I think it's safe to say that the relationship between national and local government could be improved, and I'm pleased that the Verity House agreement is a demonstration of our collective desire to improve that relationship. I very much believe in the spheres of government as opposed to the tiers of government. I very much believe in national, local by default, national by exception. For me, there is a genuine question that costs absolutely except around accountability, and ensuring that as we loosen, for example, ring fencing, that there is a shared understanding of the outcomes that we each want to achieve, and however we each held to account for the achievement of those outcomes. That's why having signed the Verity House agreement, that is the very beginning of the process. There will now be a period of quite a number of months, and it may, as we go through it, even take years to ensure that there is the appropriate mechanisms in place to be able to scrutinise those outcomes. One of the key areas that we're working on with COSLA at the moment is the accountability framework. It's being very much developed in partnership with our friends and colleagues in local government. I fully intend that accountability framework to be shared with Parliament, and with bodies that hold local government to account as soon as it's practical. That work is very much under way, and I think that accountability framework will be important so that Parliament can hold national government to account in relation to those outcomes. Thanks very much. I'm going to move on to... Thanks, and good afternoon, First Minister. I'm still focusing on the Verity House agreement, particularly on child poverty. I know that's something that's high on your agenda coming from the last programme for government. How does the Verity House agreement affect the Scottish Government's approach to tackling child poverty? Ultimately, we both have a shared endeavour to tackle child poverty. Certainly, in my discussions with COSLA, it is an issue of the highest priority for them, and we're both committed to that. I think that's where the accountability framework is going to be really important. We can all talk at very high levels about what we want to do to tackle child poverty. The member will be very aware of the targets that we have set ourselves, very ambitious targets, the four targets around poverty that we have set ourselves as a Government. The agreement that we have in place, the Verity House agreement, very much sets out those principles about how we will collaborate together to tackle poverty, and it's very much central to the Verity House agreement. COSLA and Solace, bodies that are well-known to conveners, they're very much represented on our child poverty programme board as well. The accountability framework will, given a very transparent way, detail of the outcomes that we're hoping to achieve, how we can be held to account in relation to that. I can give an absolute assurance to the member that child poverty is a shared endeavour and a shared priority between ourselves and local government. It seems that my man flu may have spread to others, which I'm very sorry about. Colleagues, we're going to move into some of the broad areas covered by the programme for government and we're going to start in the area of economy. I call Claire Baker, the convener of the Economy and Fair Work Committee. Claire. Thank you. First Minister, SNP published our annual accounts and they recorded losses largely attributed to Circulity Scotland. Can I ask what lessons the Government have learned about the influence of government policy on bank decision making when we heard Willie Watt in front of the committee before recess? He did say that the bank would be reflected on the process that was undertaken to give out this loan. First Minister. There's a number of things to unpack in that question. First of all, having met Willie Watt, having met the chief executive of the Scottish National Investment Bank, I think that they're doing a very good job. I think they're... It's not unexpected that in this phase of the bank's life cycle that there would necessarily be a level of loss. I don't think it's completely unexpected given that, of course, the Scottish National Investment Bank, one of the things it's tasked with doing is de-risking investment particularly when it comes to net zero, particularly when it comes to new and innovative technologies. When I speak to business time and time and time again they talk about helping to de-risk their investments in a greater appetite to share risk. I think that's right particularly when it comes to new technologies. That's got to be a calculated risk. It can't just be cavalier and I believe it is a calculated risk that is taken by the Scottish National Investment Bank and the Scottish Government, of course, has to allow the Scottish National Investment Bank to use the expertise to decide where to invest the funding it has. Of course, they've done a good job in leveraging a significant private investment in that regard. In terms of lessons learned in relation to the deposit return scheme in Circularity Scotland there are a number of lessons undoubtedly to learn. I'm happy to give a very detailed written correspondence to Claire Baker but what I would say is that it's the source of great frustration. I mean, we I won't go over all of the history of where we are with a deposit return scheme and where we've ended up but, again, the Prime Minister's most recent announcements give me little hope at all that there will be a UK aligned scheme by the time that the UK Government had suggested that there would be in 2025 so we've had our own scheme virtually torpedoed and no UK scheme I don't think it's site. I think it was right that SNIB invested, and it was a decision, obviously, for them to invest in Circularity Scotland at the time. I'm just frustrated that we have ended up in the position that we are in and unable to take forward a Scotland-only scheme that was ready to go and would have, I think, been very helpful in relation to reducing litter on our streets. Thank you. The committee has followed up these questions with SNIB ourselves. The legislation that established the bank was very clear in its expectations around gender inequality in the financial sector and the Government do have a number of commitments around women in enterprise in the discussions you've had with the chairman and the bank do you make it clear the expectations from Government and from Parliament that they will be addressing gender inequality and supporting women within businesses and they will be recognising the range of businesses that women are invested in. Those discussions will be reiterated in most of the discussions that we have with the Scottish National Investment Bank but also with other stakeholders as well as I was in a meeting with representatives of the financial sector as part of our FISGAD group that we have. I'm pleased to say that, of course, there was a number of women from the financial sector and industry that they represented but, more important, in agreement with that group that there is more work to be done and, of course, I know that Claire Baker will know about Anna Stewart's excellent work that she has done on women in entrepreneurship. We are very committed to taking forward the recommendations in Anna Stewart's excellent piece of work. We have made some considerable progress when it comes to the support that we are offering to offer women in entrepreneurship into work. That is why a key commitment of my programme for government was to ensure that we expand our childcare offer because although that helps families in the round, we know that disproportionately it impacts in a positive way women's ability to get back into the workforce which is good for women, good for families and good for the economy Is there time for another question? Briefly, yes. Just about the fair work sexual agreements so the mandate letter to Neil Gray did highlight the fair work sexual agreements I just appreciate an update on where we are with those they would be particularly retail as we did an inquiry into town centres. Again, I would probably have better writing to the member more of the detail but that is exactly why I found it important to raise that issue explicitly within the mandate letters new it is an innovation that I have brought forward in order to ensure that all of the cabinet secretaries in my government are focused in terms of delivery. I do know about the town centre inquiry that has been done and the report that you published at the end of last year and we are very much keen to continue to work with COSLA around the town centre action plan and to solidify multi-year funding long-term funding for town centre regeneration in Scotland so I am happy to write to the member with more detail around some of the specifics that she asks in that regard. Sticking with the economy theme I am going to invite back in Kenneth Gibson. Thank you very much, convener. Funding public services requires thriving and growing economy so what is the Scottish Government's long-term strategy to deliver fiscal sustainability in light of the huge demographic challenges that we face and a fiscal gap of around £1 billion as highlighted by the Scottish Fiscal Commission? We could spend hours answering that question I won't as we don't have time and again if there is anything that Kenneth Gibson wishes in terms of specifics to follow on we will always be happy to provide further detail and I know that Kenneth Gibson is very familiar with our national strategy for economic transformation that's at the heart of our economic growth strategy I was very clear in the programme for government it was both an anti-poverty and pro-growth programme for government there's a number of areas that we will look to invest in Scotland I believe its economic growth will be powered by our net zero opportunity some incredible opportunity in relation to renewables but we are blessed as a country with a number of sectors of great abundance our food and drink offer we know whisky exports for example for the first time broke through the £6 billion barrier we know our life sciences sector is growing our space sector booming a number of industries in Scotland agriculture, hospitality tourism are great avenues for great opportunities to continue along our path in relation to economic growth Kenneth Gibson is absolutely right to make mention of the demographic challenges and it's a source of great worrying if there's something that gave me endless sleepless nights it's that demographic challenge and workforce challenge that we're facing excuse me, both public and private sector share with me concerns in that demographic challenge so what are we doing to try to resolve it a few things I would commend the detail of James Withers review in relation to skills the government is of course seeking to ensure that we take forward a number of the recommendations in James Withers review in relation to skills cos that is clearly going to be important for us to understand the workforce of the present and the future and how we fill those gaps that clearly exist and we'll continue in relation to trying to attract talent from across the UK and our talent migration and attraction service will be important to that and although we obviously don't have the powers over migration we'll do what we can to ensure that Scotland is an attractive place as possible to work with others to put forward sensible propositions to the UK Government around how their migration challenge how their migration policies can better suit our needs and the very last thing I would say is there's areas when it comes to depopulation there's areas in parts of the country where we have a real concern, remote rural island communities and that's why we're for example producing a variety of different plans to tackle those depopulation issues very much at the heart of those plans Thanks very much, I mean it's obviously a huge area I mean clearly I focus on skills, innovation startups and research and development would certainly be of assistance but I want to move on to my second question which is on taxation and the finance committee heard in a pre-budget 2425 evidence at both the United Kingdom and Scottish tax systems are complex and disjointed with no clear progressivity in either for example, the marginal rate of tax due to the interaction of income tax and national insurance and of course national insurance is not devolved is actually higher in Scotland for someone earning £44,000 a year than someone earning £54,000 so what is the Scottish Government's long-term taxation policy to provide certainty for taxpayers progressivity and ensure that potential investors or public services can see into the future as to what their taxation policy is likely to be and therefore how it will impact upon them First Minister So again there's so much to unpack in that question from Kenneth Gibson I suppose I would start by saying I'm not convinced or certainly don't agree that we haven't shown our progressivity I think we have a progressive tax system in Scotland very proud of that progressive tax system of course we have to be mindful of national students contributions in frankly we also have to be very mindful of what decisions the UK Government makes in relation to taxation and we're very alive and alert to the divergence which exists and I don't have an issue with that divergence because it certainly demonstrates our progressive taxation system but we have to be mindful because of course if it gets to a certain point there could be behavioural impacts that could be to our detriment so that there's appropriate analysis and modelling done in that regard but I don't flinch away from or shy away from the values of our taxation system which essentially boils down to those who earn the most should pay the most that's not something that I'm scared of unashamedly and explicitly putting on the record time again so we will believe in a progressive tax system I believe it was the IFS that said due to our tax and changes that we've made in relation to social security that those households in the 30% lowest income households with a child are better off to the tune of about £2,000 that's testament to the decisions that we've made both in terms of taxation and also in terms of social security in terms of the question of certainty over the longer term it's a very reasonable question for Kenneth Gibson of course to ask it is a difficult one to answer because as Kenneth Gibson has already said in his question some of the factors which influence what we will do with taxation don't lie with us national insurance you mentioned of course the UK Government's own tax policy if they choose to as they did with Liz Truss's many budget cut tax for the wealthy then we have to be understanding and mindful of that doesn't mean we'll change course of course we didn't change course during the many budget we're right not to change course during the disastrous many budget but of course we have to be mindful of what the UK Government does in that regard but our central our central driving ethos will be a progressive tax system so we can invest in our public services and the Scottish Fiscal Commission policies we brought forward we have around about a billion pounds to spend and invest in our public services Apologies, I'm going to have to move on we want to the issue of constitution and I call Claire Adamson, constitution Europe external affairs and culture committee thank you, good afternoon First Minister the programme for government includes an on-going policy commitment to align with EU law previously this was qualified but is now qualified as being where possible and meaningful the scale of this task is very familiar to everyone sitting around this table today and our committee has published an EU tracker that will help committees in their scrutiny process but can you confirm that the policy commitment has set out in the continuity act statement of policy is that Scottish ministers default is to align with EU law and how will the Scottish Government support the committees in scrutinising those decisions? That is absolutely the policy position around alignment where we can and where is possible we have to also be up front and I think we have been around where the limitations are in that regard but we absolutely wish to continue alignment as far as we possibly can in terms of transparency I am happy to continue to liaise with Clare Adamson and our committee if there is anything further we can do in our round transparency of alignment but in my recent visit to Brussels I made it very clear to every single EU official that I spoke to that we want to continue that alignment so that when the day that Scotland does rejoin the European Union that should help with that application process I also think that it is the right thing to do because of the high standards that are often applied to a number of areas so I do not want to see us moving back from that one single bit but I am more than happy to continue a discussion with the committee if there is anything further we can do in our round being more transparent around that particular piece of work Clare Adamson, thank you very much we now move on to a broader theme on the deciding children I am going to invite Cokab Stewart the new UNCRC rights will only apply to acts of the Scottish Parliament and not to Westminster legislation or any amendments that Holyrood has made since this will obviously put out of scope key acts including the Children's Scotland Act of 1995 Education Scotland Act as well so what does this mean practically for children's rights and for children's rights what does this mean practically for children in Scotland in terms of the UNCRC bill I suppose practically it means that we won't be able to give them the full range of coverage that we would have hoped to have done so with the incorporation of UNCRC there will be many existing acts of the UK Parliament in areas, in devolved areas that impact on children rights that will not be subject to the compatibility duty in this bill and of course we had to have made the amendments to the legislation in a way that addressed the findings of the UK Supreme Court and tried to reduce so far as possible the risk of any further legal intervention from the UK Government and at the same time the legislation that is coherent in terms of the practical implication of the adjustment of the scope of the duty I suppose that will become clearer once the bill has actually passed and the duty itself commences so from a Scottish Government perspective we will continue to do what we can consider ways that we can support children, young people and the representatives to understand the new laws and consider what can be done within that legal framework to increase its scope in the future Thank you First Minister so yes I suppose looking at the duties the scope on duty bearers and the implications and rights holders around that but what work is the Scottish Government undertaking to consider how these changes to the UNCRC bill will have to be drafted into the Scottish Human Rights Bill and again what will that mean in practice for the people of Scotland That's a very fair question indeed we're obviously very mindful of the judgment from the course and what implication that would have for the Scottish Human Rights Bill which I have to say speaking to very imminent individuals like Professor Alan Miller as I did a couple of weeks ago there is great global interest in Scotland's human rights bill but practically of course we will have to consider what the scope of that is the duties that are currently proposed for that bill are different in nature to the compatibility duty in the UNCRC bill they involve both procedural duties but also compliance duties so we will have to think carefully about the implications bearing in mind the nature of those duties and the last thing I think any of us want is to go through the bill process only for there to be another legal challenge and risk having to go through a reconsideration phase and process once again the committee will be close to scrutinising the bill and happy to continue to liaise with her on these matters but it's fair to say we have to consider the court judgment when it comes to what we're doing in relation to the Scottish Human Rights Bill thank you First Minister I'm now going to say Sueva, convener, education children and young people committee good morning, good afternoon rather First Minister as you're aware our committee has taken a great role in behaviour in schools and has written to the cabinet secretary on the matter in advance of the first summit that took place earlier this month relationships and wellbeing in our schools is something that is vitally important to our committee and whilst we appreciate that there are summits being held can I ask what support the Scottish Government intends to give teachers in the meantime to address the behavioural issues in our schools? I'm thankful for the work that the committee has done in this regard and for the interest that she has shown and she is right that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has of course continued to take these issues up but we are liaising as per the Verity House agreement, we're liaising with our colleagues in local government to see what more we can do to support teachers and staff in relation to some of the concerning behaviour that we have seen Subeva will also be aware that there is concern about the impact of the pandemic potentially on children and what that might have done in relation to behaviour so we're very keen to understand what is behind the reasons that we're seeing really difficult behaviours that have been the focus of political attention, media attention and press attention so we're very keen to do is ensure that there is the appropriate counselling available pre-crisis interventions accessible to every single secondary school in the country so continue to fund those interventions to understand the anxieties concerns of our young people which again I hope will help in relation to behaviours but the reason for the summit is that we're seeing political representatives to see what more we could possibly do so there is detailed consideration being given in that regard Thank you, I've got another question on a slightly different topic First Minister, it's done the promise so what will the cabinet to take on the promise announced in the programme for government be looking at when will it meet and who will be involved in it and what does a lot of questions there, apologies and what does the First Minister hope to see this group achieve the promise bill when can we likely expect that A number of things you're right in that question we haven't finally determined the absolute membership of the sub-committee on keeping the promise but the entire purpose of that sub-committee is to ensure that we have all of the appropriate ministers, cabinet secretaries and officials to enable cross-government focus on not just keeping the promise but delivering the promise to in relation to what will be overarching A and B in that regard the overarching aim will be to make sure that we keep the promise that is a commitment that we have made whoever is very aware of the challenge that the oversight board presented to the Government and we have to make sure that we are back on track to meet that commitment in relation to the interim commitments but also in relation to 2030 we will of course as a sub-committee take advice from for example the independent adviser Fiona Duncan in relation to the promise I don't have detail of when the bill will be ready to bring forward the work very much under way but I'm more than happy to furnish to whoever with more detail not just on legislation but on the detail of the sub-committee once we have it under way I should say the work on the promise doesn't rely on the sub-committee but put together we're making progress in relation to the promise and we have if we do take a step back there is of course there is noticeable progress that has been made in relation to the promise of fewer young people in care for example and within the care system and that's something we want to build upon so we won't wait for the sub-committee to necessitate that action but the sub-committee will bring across Government focus which I hope will be welcomed by all Thank you I'm going to invite back in Collette Steams Thanks very much First Minister I'm going to get into childcare and parental employment so it was a welcome announcement within the programme for government a number of measures aimed at tackling poverty including six local authorities to develop childcare from nine months to the end of primary school Pilots aimed at recruiting a thousand child binders and expanding the eligibility of two-year-olds for early learning in childcare so do you feel that expansion is large enough and quick enough to have an impact on child poverty? I think it's really a fair question and I would say that yes I've got every confidence that not just the childcare expansion but all of the initiatives that we're bringing forward to try to tackle child poverty collectively will make a significant difference in relation to child poverty we've seen of course from figures released in the last few months it is estimated through our work that 90,000 children will be lifted are set to be lifted out of poverty this year we're not complacent about that we know there's more to do we know that the very serious warnings from experts that the government needs to do more to remain on track in order to meet our child poverty targets that's a challenge we take very very seriously so if I combine all of what we're doing in relation to tackling child poverty I'm confident it certainly moves us in the right direction but it's why the budget that will of course be announced to this Parliament at the end of this year I don't think I'm giving any surprises away when I say there will be a significant focus on reducing poverty and child poverty in particular and that will require some difficult decisions to be made around issues potentially around taxation around targeting our resources in order to ensure we focus on those that need it the most Thanks so much, Collette I'm going to move down the line to Audre Nicolle, convener of the criminal justice committee, Audre Thanks very much, convener and good afternoon, First Minister my question follows on from last week on tackling online child sexual exploitation stakeholders have described how the threat, complexity and severity of offending continues to grow and that tackling this issue goes beyond just one of law enforcement and this week a three-day international conference is taking place here in Edinburgh to consider the global prevalence of child sexual exploitation while taking evidence the criminal justice committee heard calls for the development of a sexual harm strategy for Scotland however to date that has not been completed given the cross cutting and complex nature of this issue would the First Minister give further consideration to the development of an overarching sexual harm strategy as highlighted by stakeholders who are working in this very complex space I will absolutely give consideration of that, I know this is an issue of great interest and worry to members right across the chamber regardless of whether you're a parent or not and I can't think of anything worse as a parent than my child being exploited in that way I know that of course the minister in relation to the debate that took place last week gave detail of our multifaceted approach in relation to tackling child sexual exploitation and child sexual abuse we absolutely agree that it's a complex issue cross cutting nature of evolving issues requires a very strategic and coordinated approach I'm also very keen to work with the UK Government on this issue where we can I think that the UK Government and the Scottish Government have worked well on issues such as human trafficking in the past I'm happy to explore what more we can do on that and in that regard we did advise stakeholders as I think the member will be aware of our intention to establish a new strategic advisory group to review and further develop our approach to preventing and tackling all forms of child sexual abuse and exploitation including and I know Audra Nicolle is very aware of this point including of course online exploitation and abuse so this group will consider whether national strategy would help to underpin and strengthen work already under way so in short we'll absolutely give that consideration thank you First Minister we're going to move on to broadly under the environment theme I'm going to invite Finlay Carson Rural Affairs and Islands Committee thank you good afternoon First Minister can I ask how the Scottish Government will achieve its vision for agriculture through the much anticipated agriculture bill I think it is much anticipated what we're very keen to do with that bill is ensure that we work alongside our agricultural community to provide a level of stability and I'm not going to get into all the arguments around Brexit but one thing of course I think we can probably all agree on is that being part of the EU scheme when we were members of the European Union allowed a level of certainty around longer term funding that we just don't have at the moment so we'll look to see how the bill can provide a level of stability around longer term funding which will be really important to our agricultural community the second area which is of great importance I know to our farmers and to those involved in agricultural industries is ensuring that we create a sustainable future for farming in particular or from 2025 in particular how do we use the subsidies, the payments that are made how do we use those in order to further our collective net zero aims and net zero ambitions and I think we can do that in a way that it's phased in a way that as I say is done in conjunction with as opposed to simply imposed upon farmers and those in our agricultural industries Finlay Carson is right to say it's much anticipated that it should be introduced imminently and it will be introduced imminently we had a further discussion about the agriculture bill at Cabinet just this week so that bill will come forward imminently I think a lot of the agricultural sector will take exception to the word subsidy I hope we're moving away from there I need support for food production but given the funding you touched on funding currently there's a unique situation that exists with regards to ring ffencing funding that comes from the UK Government and we've had that guaranteed for the last seven years specifically for agriculture so what thought is the Scottish Government given to introducing multi-year funding such as that the Welsh Government has done to protect agriculture funding particularly given the significant role that agriculture is currently playing but more importantly will play in delivering food security climate change and enhancing biodiversity very favourable to looking at what certainty we can give to multi-year funding I think it's necessary I think it's required I think it gives the sector a level of stability in certainty which as I say I'm not entirely convinced that that has been given to them since our exit from the European Union so it's absolutely important that we consider as we bring forward the bill Thanks Finlay We're going to move on to the health theme now and I'm going to invite Claire Hockey, health, social care and sport committee Thank you, and good afternoon First Minister The health, social care and sport committee recently took evidence on the NHS on social care winter planning and the importance of the adult social care workforce winter planning was quite rightly emphasised by many Cabinet Secretary and the recruitment and retention of the social care workforce was raised in written and oral evidence So can the First Minister advise what work needs to be undertaken to support the implementation of the commitment to a pay-up lift for the adult social care workforce as outlined in the programme for government and how it's anticipated that this will benefit the workforce in the sector First Minister Again this is an issue of great publicity and one that if the convener, Claire Hockey wishes she can come back to me if there's further detail that she wishes because I'm interested in brevity I'll try to cover just the key salient points Pay is absolutely an issue so everybody be talked to in social care will tell us that they are in a very competitive labour market they will often be losing people out losing people from social care and adult social care in particular to a whole host of sectors from retail to the NHS to many other sectors and that's why it was important for me in the programme for government to be able to signal that from April next year we will give a significant pay-up lift that comes in the back of the fact that we've already seen an increase to a minimum of £10.90 per hour in line with the real living wage rate and that minimum pay represents an almost 15% increase for those workers in the last two years but also let me be absolutely honest I've heard from the sector too that they feel that that pay-up lift should have been made today at the time of the programme for government announcement and I wish we could have done that but given the significant financial pressures that just is not possible but I completely understand why the sector would want us to make that investment now so I do hear the sector in terms of some of their frustrations and even disappointment that that uplift hasn't happened immediately The other issue that I would point to is terms and conditions so pay is of course important I think that it's probably the number one factor but I think that terms and conditions are important I think that Clare Hawke is a way of a group looking at fair work within social care and there are some further actions that we can take in relation to fair work in social care which I think are really important and career progression is usually important as well and that's why I'm absolutely committed to the national care service it's not the panacea to all of the issues that we face in social care but it will greatly help in terms of social care, sector of bargaining ethical commissioning I think that all of those issues will help in relation to having a really thriving social care sector and one that is absolutely vital social care is important and it's absolutely its own right but we know it's important also in order to help us with an NHS recovery as well Thank you First Minister for that answer I'm going to move on to another subject if I may I'm going to be tackling drug deaths and drug harm met yesterday and as you can imagine there was a great deal of discussion about the establishment of a safe consumption facility pilot which I believe was approved this morning by authorities in Glasgow unfortunately the minister was unwell and unable to answer questions yesterday so can I ask the First Minister if he can provide an update on plans for the Glasgow City Facility what community engagement and consultation will be done on the process and importantly this was raised with the committee yesterday how the Scottish Government will ensure those with lived and living experience will be included in the development and the evaluation of the pilot First Minister I thank Clearhockey for an exceptionally important question I've seen the news today that Glasgow has approved a safer drug consumption facility it's a decision I very much welcome I also welcome the Lord Advocate's most recent statement in relation to prosecution policy in this regard as well so I'm very grateful to Glasgow for moving at pace and let me see unequivocally the Scottish Government is ready to stand alongside Glasgow Health and Social Care partnership and our colleagues within local government to advance this proposition as quickly as we possibly can obviously within the confines of the pilot that was proposed and received that the statement of prosecution policy from the Lord Advocate and that extends to for example how we can provide funding and support for that safer drug consumption facility too it will be for Glasgow to take forward and I have no doubt in the discussions that we as a Government have had with Glasgow thus far they are very mindful of taking the community alongside us alongside them also in taking forward the views of those with lived experience I think it's appropriate for me to contribute to the likes of Peter Cracken and others who have spoken about their own experience in this regard and have frankly pushed us all to take more actions in the face of an unacceptable drug death crisis I, while I was in New York primarily for climate week I did take some time to speak to the New York State Commissioner for Health for the Department of Health Dr Svan and he had mentioned to me that their experience of having safer drug consumption facilities in New York for the last 18 months I believe was that it was imperative to try to take the public with you as best you possibly could and the second point that we made which is one that I know Glasgow are absolutely committed to that it isn't just about the safer drug facility consumption facility it's also about all the services that are co-located and wrapped around that and I believe that New York are going to be publishing some data from the first 18 months of the safer drug consumption facility and that's been promised to be shared with us and the Scottish Government and I'm sure we can then share with Glasgow that it certainly seems to be a helpful and positive experience in New York as being one tool as part of a wider effort to reduce drug deaths Thank you I think we're going to stick with this theme I'm going to move over and invite back in Audrey Nicolodrae Yes indeed, I am going to stay with this theme and I would follow up from the comments that the question that Claire Holly asked the Lord Advocate's recent statement and obviously the news today in relation to safe consumption rooms but I also would like to ask about wider questions that this has raised regarding support for people using such a facility with particular regard to their continued contact with organised crime to source their drug of use there is consensus obviously that a public health approach is the right approach in Scotland however I wonder if the First Minister can outline how the Scottish Government might take account of this issue within the safe consumption room pilot in such a way that provides a holistic response that in time might support the elimination of the need for individuals to maintain links with organised crime in supplying their drug of use I am interested in the comments that the First Minister made about the work in New York Of course, such an exceptionally important question really good question to ask I don't have the Lord Advocate's statement in front of me but certainly from memory the Lord Advocate was very precise and focused in the language that she used she mentioned that it would not be in the public interest to prosecute for simple possession offences taking place in the pilot and that is quite a narrow defined pilot in Glasgow in relation to safer drug consumption facilities and making it clear Lord Advocate made it clear that it doesn't impact on prosecution out with that quite narrow definition so the work that I know is very familiar with in relation to the serious organised crime task force that work absolutely will continue in relation to those criminal gangs who seek to exploit people's vulnerabilities and look to profit from the misery of others in the misery of communities so that work will continue I would suggest unaffected by the statement of prosecution policy from the Lord Advocate so we do take a public health approach when it comes to the issue of drug deaths but we know that Police Scotland and Credit goes to Police Scotland that their focus on tackling serious organised crime has reaped many rewards in terms of breaking up some of those criminal gangs but there is a significant amount of work still to do and to the point that I made a moment ago to clear hockey that the safer drug assumption facilities in their own can of course be helpful but the real value comes in having access to other services and that was a really strong message from the commissioner in New York Thanks so much Audrey, great I'm now going to invite the convener of Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee to take over the next questions Thank you convener First Minister you announced a bill on judicial factors in the programme for government which is based on a Scottish law commission report which you believe is likely to be a strong candidate to actually come to the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee Can you set out what benefits you believe this bill is actually going to bring about? For the judicial factors that I've been aware of for a number of years First and foremost before I go on to judicial factors it's important to say that we've got to a better position when it comes to the Scottish law commission bills I think there was a concern about the flow coming from the Scottish law commission through to actual legislation being passed by this Parliament so I think we are in a better place as will be the third SLC bill to be introduced to this Parliament this session In terms of judicial factors the issue of judicial factors is not a new one it's got a long history in Scottish law and there's a continuing need for capable knowledgeable expert administrators to be appointed to manage the property of those who can't should not or will not manage it properly themselves but the current law as we know is outdated I think it'd be fair to say it's over a century old with no new primary legislation specifically on judicial factors since 1889 so the bill will introduce a statutory framework which sets out clearly the essential features of the office of judicial factor and the broad parameters within which it should operate and it will be a benefit to all those involved in judicial factories in whatever capacity so Scottish law commission consulted on this issue made a number of recommendations in a further consultation and as I say we're committed to bringing forward that bill this year Thank you that First Minister just on the theme of the SLC bills you're quite correct in terms of looking at the third bill when this does come into the Parliament hopefully it does come to the Delierry Powers and Law Reform Committee and progress has been made but can you give an assurance to the committee today that the Scottish Government will continue on that theme of bringing forward more SLC bills? Yes, simply I can we've got into a better rhythm of doing that over the years especially since changes were made in 2013 this would be the eighth bill to be introduced I'm sorry there's already been eight bills introduced since those rules were updated in 2013 and you'll know that the Government's considering to review your reports during this session as we're set out by not my programme for government previous, my predecessor's programme for government in 2021-22 so yes, I think we're in a better place in that regard and we continue to look forward to working closely with the SLC and of course with the appropriate committee in this regard I'm going to move on and invite Jackson of the Citizens Participation and Public Petitions Committee to give me the opportunity to bring directly to you the aims of a particular petition and hopefully to banjax you into agreeing with the petitioner's ambitions and I do that again today I acknowledge the statement this morning in relation to on-going support for asylum seekers but we heard a petition petition number 2028 from Pinar Aksu and Doa Abu Amar who are both I think aware that I'm raising this with you today on the level for asylum seekers now at the moment of the 6,000 asylum seekers roughly a third are probably able to claim because they're either under 22 or they're over 60 but it leaves about 4,000 people who are not now I understand the difficulty when it comes to benefits but this is a concessionary scheme and Spice think it's entirely within the competence of the Scottish Government to extend free concessionary travel to this group it was within the programme for government specific reference to delivering a system, a scheme whereby free concessionary travel would be available but it's not in the current programme for government but we've obviously heard from MSPs and from the community themselves who believe that an extension of this kind would be enormously valuable to asylum seekers and their ability to live and operate within the community and Paul Sweeney brought to the committee an example of one asylum seeker who required dental treatment couldn't afford the bus fare had to walk 10 miles in the rain and in pain to secure the treatment that was otherwise available for him I don't want to throw figures around it's been suggested it would be about half a million pounds I don't know whether that's correct or not but bluntly I suppose is this an objective that the First Minister might like to commit to being able to deliver if it's taken over an hour for the first bandjaxing If there's one issue that I should be bandjaxing to, I think this is probably a contender for an issue that I absolutely should give consideration to. We are actually actively giving consideration to this very very issue I commend the petitioners as well and I know Pinar in particular over a number of years has been a vocal advocate for the rights of asylum seekers I can also say that Jackson Carlos' question is particularly welcome on the back of some dreadful commentary around refugees that we saw the last 24 hours from the UK Government and I know Jackson Carlos has been often on the right side of issues in relation to asylum and refugees for a number of years and recognising that In short, we are open and not only open to this issue we are giving it active consideration There are a number of complex challenges when it comes to in particular what we are able to do in relation to asylum seekers how they are identified how we can make a concessionary scheme work but these are not insurmountable if there is a desire to take forward these issues I can't say anything more other than it's been an issue of live discussion within Government and if there is a way to do this then I'm seeking Governments then we are certainly seeking to do that but it does come with some policies which I'm certain Jackson Carlos will be aware of You're on a roll Jackson Do you want any more? I took that as a yes We'll move on now to Clare Adamson who I think has got some questions in relation to culture policy First Minister if I could turn to the culture remit of our committee in your mandate letter to the cabinet secretary you state that Jackson should collaborate with ministerial colleagues across Government to mainstream culture into policy making this is an aspiration and ambition that's been around for a long time almost back to Christie and one that not least most recently published culture and communities report from the committee has touched on as well so do you agree that we need to see real progress in this area to truly meet the ambitions and cross portfolio funding for culture and how do you see your role as First Minister in leading in this area to ensure that we meet the ambitions of a wellbeing society and a wellbeing economy I'm really grateful to Clare Adamson for asking the question and I go back to my point around the mandate letters which has not been done before and I can seem quite almost an Iraqi point to make within policy, development and delivery but I think it's really important that it's understood the reason for the mandate letters is to drive forward a real focus on delivery and so each cabinet secretary is in no doubt whatsoever and it's been done in collaboration with cabinet secretaries but in no doubt whatsoever about what the expectation my expectation and I believe in the public's expectation will be on what they deliver between now and 2026 and mainstreaming culture has got to be a part of that and what I've asked Angus Robertson to do is to consider what structures need to be put in place with fellow cabinet secretaries and ministers in order to understand that they equally understand the importance of mainstreaming culture within their portfolio so Angus Robertson in the first instance has taken forward a number of bilaterals I think with if not all the vast majority of cabinet secretaries that very issue of mainstreaming culture and I can say from my previous most recent experiences health secretary there is huge amounts of synergy between what we're looking to do in relation to better health outcomes and in relation to culture think about social prescribing as one example of that and in cabinet on Tuesday we had a post cabinet discussion on poverty and of course culture was a significant part of that discussion given of course the excellent work that a number of cultural organisations such as the system I do in relation to child poverty so I can give Cleamson the absolute assurance that this has been taken forward by Angus Robertson he has my full support in taking forward these discussions with cabinet colleagues and it's now a case of putting in place what is understood and delivered upon Thank you Christmas minister Thank you very much I'm now going to move on to housing related issues and we'll go back in Arrian Burgess The programme for government sets out the intention to introduce a housing bill which will amongst other things make provisions for long term rent controls the emergency measures set out in last years cost of living tenant protection Scotland act will have expired before so long term measures can take effect Both tenants and landlords need certainty about what will happen in this interim period of matter of urgency and the committee has been assured that there will be transitional provisions in place but we would welcome the First Minister's reassurances that this clarity for tenants and landlords will be coming imminently Christmas Yes it will be it's an important point that Arrian Burgess raises the need for transitional arrangements and the fear of courses when these current provisions expire then there is a significant steep increase in rents and that is something that worries a number of private renters in particular and the committee did here from the minister for zero carbon buildings active travel and tenants rights just a couple of weeks ago we are very much looking at options for the effective use of the regulation making powers in schedule 3 of the cost of living act to temporarily reform the current rent adjudication process that regulation making power of course will be subject to the approval of Parliament and it will be crucial allowing us to temporarily alter the rent adjudication process to prevent unintended consequences as we transition out of the emergency measures of the act of course continued discussions with stakeholders including landlords will be incredibly important and we hope to be able to introduce proposals and certainly in due course shortly in fact after the current extension takes place but I would just point again to the words of Patrick Harvie in this regard that an adjustment to the rent adjudication process will prevent an immediate cliff edge when the temporary emergency legislation expires and that is absolutely right and proper nobody wants that kind of cliff edge for anybody that is renting in Scotland thank you and collect students in the first minister being no surprise that I'm going to focus again on child poverty and what more can be done to reduce the number of children living in temporary accommodations just now there is a significant amount of work for us to do in relation to children temporary accommodation and unfortunately the latest statistics show the trajectory moving in the wrong direction that's not acceptable we've got to take our share which we absolutely do so collect students and I know will absolutely be aware of the work that we have done in relation to the temporary accommodation task and finished group and we are committed without any exception to act on the recommendations of that group and that includes investing at least £60 million for councils and social landlords to use as social homes asking social landlords to increase allocation to homeless households and supporting councils facing the greatest temporary accommodation pressures to develop targeted plans so we will not rest until we absolutely make progress in reducing significantly the use of temporary accommodation because as I say I'm afraid the latest statistics show that a worrying train and a worrying number of families and children in temporary accommodation and that's not acceptable Thanks Colin Just to give the time for colleagues to think up any last questions you have I'm going to invite Kenneth Gibson Thank you very much for your indulgence First Minister, Westminster, Holyrood local government, health boards community planning partnerships joint integration boards so Quangos an increasing number of commissioners as we'll see this very day and a board to oversee the national care service that's a lot for a country of 5.4 million people so I'm just wondering what steps the Scottish Government will take to reform and declutter this very crowded public sector landscape First Minister So the member will be aware that the Deputy First Minister had responsibility for public sector reform I think that is a role for the Deputy First Minister to have given she obviously has the finance brief and that's deliberate and I think we are very mindful of the fact that it can be quite a complex landscape for the public to navigate so that work is being undertaken by the Deputy First Minister she's involving all cabinet secretaries that are relevant and appropriate and ministers that are relevant and appropriate through a regular meetings that take place so we recognise that there's a need to simplify and ensure that we are as efficient as possible particularly in a challenging financial landscape but I also make no apologies whatsoever for ensuring that at the heart of our principles is fair work ensuring those in the public sector are paid well paid fairly for the exceptional job they do right across the public sector I was also going to ask him on another topic what discussions has the First Minister had with the UK Government over any guidance on the role of civil servants working in the devolved administrations regarding the delivery of manifesto commitments Minister I'm certain that the member is aware of the various interventions from members of the House of Commons members of the House of Lords and even UK Government ministers certainly alluding to the fact that the Scottish Government shouldn't be doing work that we have a mandate for in particular in relation to the constitution we have of course since the Supreme Court judgment have clear guidance from the permanent secretary around of course what work we can do and of course I'll just quote from John Paul Marx permanent secretary in the finance and public administration committee on the 16th of May of this year we serve the Government of the day that includes with regards to constitutional reform that's been well understood on devolution for many years for the civil service in the Scottish Government service the Scottish Government as priorities we provide policy advice including the development of the prospectus paper series for the Government to set out is constitutional objective so we know that our excellent civil service will work of course in an impartial apolitical manner but will provide assistance and support to the Government of the day for the objectives that has been elected the mandate has been given and the manifesto commitments and there can be no doubt or dubiety about the fact that this party I lead has a clear mandate for a referendum in independence and that something will continue to pursue you won't be surprised to know that you've sparked late interest in further questions I'm going to come first to clear Adamson then to Richard Leonard thank you very much my colleagues who've ever raised the issue of behaviour in schools have touched on all the issues post Covid and understanding of all this but obviously educational form is on the agenda of the Government going forward in the summer I hosted as part of the festival of politics a quick Q and answer session in the chamber with Gustavo Doudamel and we had the ELSYSTEMA graduates from the number of years and all the ELSYSTEMA projects from across Scotland in the gallery and to hear the inspirational transformation that was made to these young people was simply inspiring so can I ask the First Minister how will you ensure that projects we know work that make a difference to young people will be embedded going forward as we look to to reform some of these issues in our education system I think it goes to the heart of the work I've asked the finance secretary to do and the cabinet to do more broadly which is we know that the financial circumstances we find ourselves in are very challenging I've been in government for 11 odd years and I've never seen the public finances as constrained and difficult and challenging and that's not just the Scottish Government one only has to look at the measures the Welsh Government has brought forward for example and I've got tremendous good relationships and constructive relationships with the Welsh Government but the fact that they've I think put every health board into special measures around governance and finance just as a demonstration of how difficult financial circumstances are right across devolved Governments so that is why I've asked the cabinet and again the Deputy First Minister to spearhead the work around targeting and ensuring that our focus is that every penny we spend is going to those people who need it the most and in order to do that we have the requisite data that tells us what works and what interventions are significantly helping us in relation to the targets we've got in regards to poverty and child poverty in particular and I do commend the programme's like system I've seen the big noise myself and Dundee during a visit to Clay Pot's castle at primary school not too long ago so if I can give in an assurance that piece of work is very much under way around what targeted interventions can help what do we need to scale up and it will also involve difficult decisions and we'll get to that during the budget in relation to other things that we might not be able to do or we might have to reprofile and that will be a really difficult discussion to have but we're not shying away from those difficult decisions because they have to be they have to take place in really difficult financial circumstances we find ourselves in Richard Leonard First Minister last year the Scottish Government paid £30 million out to the consulting industry that's more in that year than the previous four years put together at least some of those consultancies insist on non-disclosure agreements the public audit committee discovered doesn't that prove one of your council of economic advisers right when she says that the consulting industry is the big con in fertilising our governments warping our economies and significantly in the context of transparency obfuscating political accountability so can I tell you where I disagree with that quote is that where we can provide the expertise I think government will seek to do that it's always the default position where we need further expertise using consultants is something that is done by governments again right across the UK whether it's the Welsh Labour Government whether it's the Scottish Government UK Government and of course the Government in Northern Ireland as well and we will try to limit that spend where we can £30 million is not an insignificant amount I accept that it is a fraction of our resource budget so we need to try to limit where we can I would need to look at the specific details of all of that spend in order to give an individual commentary on each amount that was spent in terms of non-disclosure agreements NDAs we really again have a default position of not using them where NDAs are sometimes entered into for example Ferguson's shipyard and that is to protect the commercial interests of a particular entity so that it can be competitive in the marketplace and if the NDA wasn't there then that would potentially jeopardise that commercial sensitivity but I think the points that Richard Leonard makes broadly are absolutely right and government should be very aware of the spend that they make in relation to consultants but in relation to that specific example the NDA was insisted upon by the consultancy not by Ferguson Marine but again that may from the detail I have seen when it comes to the NDA that exists between Ferguson's Marine and the consultants involved that was there to protect commercial sensitivity and the concern is that it would work against the competitiveness of Ferguson's if that the report was published and published in full so that's my understanding certainly of the position of the NDA between Ferguson's and the consultant when it comes to any non-disclosure agreements we're involved in it will be often for example the sharing of sensitive material but I take the point that Richard Leonard makes and that he quotes in that we should be as open and transparent about our use of consultants and the reports that they publish I've now got a couple of and finalies I suspect Stuart is on this issue is it? I'll come at Stuart first and then collect but I have to be brief No thank you, it's not regarding the NDA it certainly is about the shipyard First Minister, is the Scottish Government any need or two taking a final decision regarding a direct award to Ferguson's shipyard? That is still under consideration Thank you I'm Collette Stevenson Thanks very much First Minister UN inst in the programme for government a number of measures aimed at tackling poverty such as the removal of income thresholds from the best start foods programme but to address the root causes of poverty interventions are clearly required at reserve level as well Can you elaborate on how an essential guarantee from the UK Government to adequately cover the cost of essentials like food, transport and energy aligns with the Scottish Government's missions to reduce inequality and child poverty as well? Given the time, I'm happy again to furnish Collette Stevenson if there's any further detail, points of detail that she wishes to receive the essential guarantee is an idea that's been brought forward by a number of anti-poverty organisations Joseph Rowntree Foundation in particular is called on the UK Government to immediately set the universal credit standard allowance at £120 per week for a single arrow and £200 for a couple for 2324 and doing so would have some very real impacts on the UK population according to the foundation over 8 million families who see their incomes rise on average by £48 per week over half of working age families in the UK with a disabled family member would benefit and almost 70 per cent would be able to pay for essentials with three in five whom are already working families so it's a significant intervention it's why we add our weight to the voices that are calling for an essential guarantee but we also accept that it doesn't abdicate us of our responsibility in terms of the devolved powers that we have and hence why we've used those devolved powers social security powers, taxation powers that I believe to move us into a positive direction in relation to tackling poverty and child poverty in particular with the Scottish child payment perhaps being the most obvious and deliberate example of a game changing intervention that can help and assist in relation to poverty here in Scotland I'm going to wind it up there thank you very much Steve that concludes the meeting and I thank very much to the First Minister for his attendance not least struggling through man flu which I know from personal experience can be hugely debilitating I hope we can reprise this in about six months time and we will be in touch with your office about scheduling a date for that First Minister but that concludes the meeting the next meeting will be after the October recess on the 25th of October so thank you all for your participation and I close this meeting up