 My name is Larry Grimm. Welcome to the Think Tech Hawaii program, Don't Just Age and Gage. I'm your host, Larry Grimm, and today we have a very special opportunity to get to know deaf doulas. And the big question today is, what does a deaf doula do? My program, Don't Just Age and Gage, is a way of bringing resources to our senior communities and to enable them with the information and with help, if they wish, to have really extraordinary elderhoods. We, in our northern American culture, we're influenced highly by that here in Hawaii. We don't die well. We die pretty badly in fact. And backing up from that, I can say we don't age well. We age pretty poorly. We don't have a good sense of elderhood. I think one of the beauties of Hawaii is that the tradition of respect for the kupuna is high. And so we are very fortunate to have that relationship, I think, here within our island culture. Deaf doulas are kind of, I guess, kind of take off from maybe from midwifing births. We have doulas. And as I understand it, the Greek term doula means servant. But we have midwives who take care of a birthing process. And then recently have come, we have had to transfer that same practice to death and dying. My guests today are Dr. Joseph Pink and Ms. Shelley Payette. The both of whom are wonderful cohorts of mine from having worked as a chaplain with Bristol Hospice here on Oahu. Joseph and Shelley, thank you so much for joining me today and joining all of our viewers in this wonderful engagement. By the way, those of you who have questions on your email, get out your email protocol and type in questions at Think Tech Hawaii and send your questions in and we'll be able to surface those online. There's your indicator. So Joseph and Shelley, what in the world does a deaf doula do? Shelley, you want to start with that? Sure. Well, a deaf doula, like Larry said in the beginning, how do I recently say this? If you're used to a midwife, a midwife is there in the beginning. And a deaf doula, which is a deaf midwife, will be there towards the end of the person's life. We was deafened prior to the transitioning process to spirit. There's a lot of rules that a deaf doula would play, but we are mainly there to educate and empower the family on the journey that they certainly may not have experienced quite yet. So I don't want to say too much and just if you can hop in anytime. All right. Well, if we think of it, there are three areas that a deaf doula works in prior to the transitioning of a patient, the transitioning process, and then brief then. And so in all parts, a deaf doula can be involved or not. So in the beginning part, we can help the family with whatever paperwork they need to be done with forming a memorial service, celebration of life, funeral, whatever they would like, whatever it may be in terms of religious preference, that kind of thing, music, etc. And we can sort of help the family prepare. This is going over and above the bounds of what hospice is able to do with their short time with the family. Then when we have the next step is during the transition. This is where a doula is there with the family when the transition is happening and we can work with the family. We can get them what they need. We can be there to help them wash the body if they like. Sometimes there's lavender mask handles. We can set up if they want particular music playing or prayers read or chance. Maybe they have particular fragrances they want or flowers or how do they want the room. We will have discussed that. We can be there for them. And then finally, we can be with the family post transition in the brief that period and meet with the family and make sure they're doing okay and just hear them and be there with them as they go through the grieving process. Well, thank you. That's a very good quick kind of a quick kind of response and thumbnail response. I appreciate that. That really that suggests that not to suggest but describes an involvement with the core values that the family has that the dying patient has with the core concerns. Maybe even a legacy in a sense that the dying person wants to leave behind. So introduce us to yourselves, please. Shelly, would you go ahead and share a little bit about who you are, what your involvements are, and maybe why in the world did you want to be a midwife to dying patients? So I'm Shelly Payette and I'm born and raised here. And I've always been around that. Let me actually phrase that. I've been to a lot of different types of funeral since the really tender age of eight. So it was never something that was was never really afraid of me. And with the guidance of my mom, she helped me to understand the process of it. It wasn't until of her passing on from space that I realized that being at the best side for someone truly is my path and what I should be doing. And that was my my main inspiration, losing my mom. And then I found out about death too. And I thought, you know, I felt so empowered and educated with the hospice stuff that we have to kind of process everything that we're going to go through. And I wanted to be that that guide for others who would welcome me at the best. So that's me. And so my mom, yeah, she's she's the main thank you, Shelly. She's inspired you. So Joseph. Okay, so I have been actually volunteering for hospice. I started in 1991 volunteering, and I was passionate about that was sort of the end of the AIDS crisis. And I wanted to specifically work with the AIDS community, people that were dying that were alone. And so little did I know that I was doing dual of work there, I was doing legacies, I was doing being at the bedside at the death, I was being there for free. But we just didn't call it an end of life dual at that point. I was an elementary teacher, finished the doctorate went on to upstate New York to teach. But all the while I remained volunteering for hospice. And while I was at the college, I made sure that my students knew about end of life. And so my women's crew joined with community members and traveled around the world to sing for hospices to study end of life, to make sure that that word got on that end of life is okay, and you need to be there for your family, and others in this community. And so then when I moved to Hawaii, I didn't realize I would be actually working for hospice. And it's been a joy. And I can use all of my hats and music and education, breathe that volunteers, and now end of life dual. And it's awesome. Thank you. Thank you both of you. I'm a strong fan of Alan Watts. Alan Watts wrote in the 1960s, 1970s. I did a fantastic job, in my opinion, of interpreting Western, excuse me, Eastern Asian philosophies to Western minds, and doing some integrating of the two actually. And one of the things that he said, and this was back in the 90s, before he died, he said, we need more people who will help us have a delightful death. And I've kind of adopted that for my own praise. And I'm growing in that understanding of just what is a delightful death. And first thing that comes to my mind about this is that our culture has a particular teaching about death and dying. What have you found is the cultural attitude towards aging death and dying? It's really difficult to answer that question. I guess the way I was brought up, I was brought up to talk about things, to talk about end of life. But I do have friends and that their family were just afraid. It was just something that they don't want to bring it to the dinner table. And the wonderful thing about the way is, there's so many different cultures. And the generations also, so the older generations are certain cultures. It's taboo to talk about the life. It's taboo to talk about anything. It's just not something that was, it's something that that generation was raised with. I guess maybe I'm a later generation, maybe that was okay. So yeah, I can't really say too much. Yeah. Joseph? You know, we see this when volunteers come to us through training, and we try to get to the bottom, you know, what is your experience with death? What do you think about death? And we have the gamut from, I don't want any part of this, to I embrace it. It's a part of life. This is what we need to go through, let me be there. I love that term, delightful death. Because really, what does that mean? Peace. Peace and honoring the loved one and honoring the family and their traditions. And with that peace, knowing that things are sort of in the work, you can have a delightful death. A peace filled death with those helping you in that journey. Describe for us one of your experiences so far. Would you either of your, both of you, as do us? I'll let Joseph go first because he has a really nice story on his legacy work. Yeah, I just completed a video legacy project on a gentleman here, Stanley Cow, who was in Pearl Harbor in Korea. And he is a member of St. Eaters. And I was able to meet with him since, I don't know, last October, I think we started this journey, and off and on and videoing his stories and hearing his stories. And one of the last visits, he got enough energy and he was a really accomplished chemist. And he's used to, as he said, I go to the homes for the old folks and play for them. He was 96 at that time. So as he played, I was recording and I was able to thread his music throughout the video. But he got his stories out. He was able to leave his legacy stories of Pearl Harbor, the stories of Korea, the stories of the hardships that he went through. And I have so much more that's not on that half hour video. But he just transitioned last week. And I know, I'm sure that his ease in transitioning was that fact that his family would be able to remember him through pictures, his spoken word through the video. It was a beautiful thing. And I know his son had sent me a video of him thanking me just before his transition. It was a beautiful thing to do. So you really are very much ready to do whatever, whatever might be appropriate for each each family, each person? Absolutely. Hi, Shelly. And your your experience, have you had? I know you're both are really new in this. So my experience, I had three or four different types of patients and one being pretty difficult. I want to share this one. When I was talking earlier about the different generations and culture, this particular one, the parents were very traditional. They came from China, and their daughter is more westernized. So she thought process on the diagnosis system. So there was a lot of flashing. So being there as a teacher around for them, I found very rewarding. So that everybody can hear things, you know, meaning they can talk about everything on the table and talk about their worries, what's going to happen. And then lay it out as a map to say, okay, so this is what's going to happen. This patient actually became a patient later when the husband realized that she actually needed help this way. So that difficult case. It was, it was really, it was really touching to see how the founding could both together towards the end. Because there was a lot of fighting in between. But towards the end, when the mom did transition, she was able to share her love and her gratitude for the amount of care that they put in towards her end of the lecture. So that that was one that I think will always stick with me. The other, the other patients are, you know, they're fun. I have this one guy, it's one patient, he's a big Elvis family. It was just so much fun to be around. But that's always really rewarding. So really cute. So yeah, that one is the most important patients. I learned so much more. What's the, yeah, good. Thank you. What's the optimal situation to develop a good relationship and outcome of your doula work? What's the optimal you want people to sign up for, you know, when they enter into hospice care, do you want them to, I mean, obviously you can't have doula just last minute response. What would be an optimal description, excuse me, a description of an optimal process for you as a doula to engage patient and family? I think really anywhere along the line is good to engage a doula. Knowing that end of life doulas really are outside of the hospice realm. There are some things that we can do as hospice workers, such as like the 11th hour volunteers that that sit with patients around the clock until so they don't have to die alone. But then there are other things that, well, mainly we don't have enough time in our hourage that we have from Bristol. And so we do some of our doula work outside and with patients outside of those on service. But anytime that a family wants doula work, it's appropriate because the families have to come to that decision. And it's just a matter of doulas listening and being there and then gentle guiding. It's not coming in and taking over. But it's sort of that slow, relaxed, let me help you kind of a thing. So anywhere along the stage is great call in a doula. May I tell you my experience of a doula? Please. My experience of I've only had one experience as a hospice chaplain. Bristol hospice and one of our patients determined that she was going to take advantage of them of the our care, our choice, our choice, our care act and determine when and that she was going to seek physician assistance to her dying. And so she did work with a doula in preparing for that for that event. And the doula had kind of an organizational, I would I would call it an order of service kind of had an organ organizational layout of what would come when in accordance with what the patient had said was her preferences. And she had friends gathered, they were having some food together. We were there were chatting around her bedside, laughing and crying and enjoying her. At one point, they asked me to the doula asked me to read a poem that she had requested that I read. And I did. There was another friend who did an appropriate hula dance at bedside with when some music came on. Then the doula poured out glasses of champagne for everybody. And we went into the bedroom with the beloved patient and toasted her and really said had some goodbyes. And the doula was overseeing the sort of an overseer of all the all the movement of of the people in the and the particular desires that she had expressed. Medications were prepared and brought in for her. And she then she particular the medication. And and then I I dismissed myself. But I suspect the doula was also present for the removal of the body. And and for the this and for saying goodbye to the guests. So I I saw the doula. Does that make sense? Was that kind of a common general orientation? Yes. Well, in a state in a state like this, where you have patients who have opted for a more determined, determinable time and date, then you can have a kind of ritualizing of the passing or ritualizing of the dying so that everybody can really benefit beautifully from that wonderful experience. So so so how are you making sure people know that you are doing this that that's available? So right now it's a matter of getting the word out. So I started the healing music, healing tears on my Facebook and Instagram. And for healing music, healing tears, it's actually going to be a course that I'm setting up for the breed to learn how to use music to help them breathe. And throughout those things, I will be continuing to put more stuff, more information about doing the work, what we do, what is possible. But it's a matter of just talking right now and then getting the word out. Shelley, you have any other ideas on that? Actually, it's the same thing you just said. It's right now it is for that difficult patient that was a personal and just like Joseph, I think for yours is from the church. So that's what I'm not this one. So right now that's what it is. But I have a feeling that it's definitely going to grow. Good. Good. Well, that's good news. Because as a chaplain, I'm sure you have a wonderful gift to offer. If a chaplain is involved, what is the difference, do you think, between the work of the doula and the work of the chaplain? I have a little bit of investment in this, having been a chaplain and being a chaplain. How would you coordinate with a chaplain at bedtime? Well, I think it's a wonderful opportunity for doulas to work hand in hand with chaplains and those of faith traditions. And well, they should. It's a wonderful opportunity to learn about each other, to learn about the family's customs, their cultures, what they would like from both ends. And I would definitely look forward to doing that. I'm wondering about family resistance to death. Families who don't feel as though talking about death, encouraging death, or talking about death actually brings death on faster. I'm wondering if you've ever encountered this or thought about this. And how would you approach this with someone? Right, especially my days of just strictly volunteering. You know, you've got to start with simple conversations in an area that is suitable for all. That's not going to bring any kind of emotion on with it. And that's how you can do. You start with the simple and you go from there. Because there is, there is definitely going to be resistance to talking about that. Who wants to, right? It's the family and chaos losing somebody they love. But again, for that delightful death, that simple conversation can bring much peace later on. Shelley, do you have anything to add to that? Actually, honestly, no. Because, yes, it is a simple conversation to start. Because you want to understand where they are in that journey too. You don't want to just jump on it. Then the resistance will become a moderator. Yeah. We have about a few minutes left. And I want to thank you again, both of you, for sharing your story and letting us to see a real doula in life. And to understand better what a death doula does. What final things would you like to say? And please be shameless in your self-promotion. What was the final things that you would like to leave with our viewers, the final comments? Well, for me, the bottom line is love. And all of this transfers to love. Love of family, love of your life, love of what you want your legacy to be. And so, yes, we would love working with you definitely. But the important thing is that you have peace. And things are prepared. And things can go the way that you want them because of this love you have for your family. And the family has for you. Shelley? Love and acceptance. That's what's going to bring the peace on. And just being open to us. We're always happy to sit with anyone and to even just provide education. And if it goes further than that, then that's awesome. Thank you. Thank you. And finally, how might we contact you? So, easiest ways to get an Ola Bristol Hospice in there, but definitely an email and phone number and my website, josephfink.com. And that can give you all the information as well to get a hold of both of us. josephfink.com. Yep. That's E-P-I-N-N. Two P's. E-P-P-I-N-K. Oh, E-P-P-I-N-K. That's it. josephfink.com. Yes. Thank you all. Thank you both so very much. And thank you viewers for joining with us today and exploring some of the most important concerns around aging and deaf and dying that we can raise. This is something of a personal show. It's not issue-oriented, but it's more oriented towards experience of aging. And aging can be a dilemma. It can be a traumatic experience. We can find ourselves isolated and marginalized as we age by family, by friends, by culture. And that's no way to age. That's a bad way to age. That's not a healthy way to age. So I want to invite you also to check out my website, personalcoachingforlifeandfaith.com. And also to come back in two weeks, let me present to you something new in two weeks on aging so that we don't just age, but engage. And go to the Think Tech Hawaii website too and make a donation. You can donate a little bit. No, no, no, no. Don't donate a lot and enable this wonderful experience to continue to grow and bloom and blossom in Hawaii. Thank you so very much. Aloha.