 P2Panda and it's about a festival organization pattern software system We'll hear about it soon. So a festival organization is usually done by a small group and it can be decentralized and The three guys talking about P2Panda they did organize some festivals in the past and They're gonna probably talk about the festival 3,000 to which they organized and I think it's Hoffnung 3,000 probably I hope I spelled that right and The platform is used to set up groups festivals gatherings art installation stuff What you can think about it and they will present also some fictional ideas of festivals some of the future and What I really really like they will talk and tell us everything about pandas Please give a warm round of applause to Sophie Andreas and Vincent Have fun Yeah, hello the panda The ingenious being that wins your heart just by rolling around Its qualities are known and appreciated The panda is cozy. It is cuddly. It is fluffy To talk about pandas means to talk about cuteness. It is kind and means no harm It brings people together and won't let you down The panda goes on adventures The panda is cyber Yeah, hello We are a Sophie Vincent and Andreas. I both sit here. We are the peer to panda gang I'm pure to panda. That's a protocol for organizing festivals in a decentralized manner We're going to tell you a little bit about it today and Split up this whole lecture in three parts. I'm going to tell you a little bit about the backgrounds of pure to panda its history Then Sophie will lead over talking about the actual technical implementation of it And Vincent will ends this talk with an outside what future festivals you can do on pure to panda I'm also one disclaimer everything we're going to say is the work of many many people We're just a part representing this group So we'll only cover a small detail of it. So yeah, let's start with a history To the left you see Laura to the right you see the panda Laura is part of a collective named blood right thousands Which started as a magazine in two south two thousand fourteen in Berlin On experimental music, so we were interesting and interested in improvised music and contemporary music So far we published nine magazines made two festivals had many release parties and gave a few lectures The three thousand consists of Laura Malte Sam and me and And The whole magazine we started was basically circling around two questions. The first one was What happens if we don't curate at all? So what we just said we'd publish anything people sent to us We named that non curation the second thing was we encouraged people to ask questions and Don't say too many answers. So we asked people to write fragments or Impulse as we called them To encourage people maybe to say something. I don't know not so 100% maybe a little bit stupid not be so so Fixed in in their position, but try something new and think about maybe things Other people can then answer to in the following magazines So this sort of format started to be some sort of platform for fictional ideas It helped us to start dreaming about, okay, what are ways we want to make music? Together, what are ways to organize ourselves? What are ways to what are nice ways to be together? All with a background of music you have to remember like we came from come from a musical background So we were dreaming about like the festivals of the future. We want to be a part of The sort of concerts we want to perform So yeah from the oldest reflection on on these future ideas we also realized I Mean we were we're mostly from a German background so Germans they're known for being very critical and very like everything sucks attitude So we were the same we were like all these contemporary music festival they suck Experimental music sucks. It's just conservative. It's full of guys. It's It's it's very very restricted in their curation in their Juries in their funding structures all of this sucks, but then we actually also realized Yeah, we kind of started to not go to these concerts anymore and not see this art anymore, but Yeah, then we realized, okay It's actually about the environment in which these things take place not the art itself The people are all right. Like the music is alright. It's mostly these environments So we started to think about yeah, what are these environments? What are these frameworks like? What is this curatorial structure? What what are the juries? What are what is this funding and? How can we hack that? so Yeah, there was lots of talking in these magazines that was also boring at one point We wanted to also experiment with actually doing something From this point on we started to plan a festival the first one was named for Unfortunes 3000 It was like it took place in Brandenburg on a small farm or quite large farm actually with 50 participants The idea was quite simple. We just said there as many places you can pick from The toilet and tract the goods house the minazum at the Hof the lake many many beautiful places and People could bring their resources and just share them with each other to do whatever sort of events they wanted to do This whole thing lasted six days and was a very interesting experience for us Which we then reflected upon in the upcoming blood right thousand magazines So then the magazine shifted from we publish everything to a little bit more like okay let's learn and and let's learn from what what happened and It's it kind of raised many many questions for many people maybe from a I mean there's meant a few hackers in this room They're probably used to like chaotic self-organized systems for artists like in being in some sort of like Commissioned loop for their whole lives. That's quite new So for many people it kind of shook was shaking up the whole idea of how to make art actually So these magazines became some sort of platform to reflect upon that And this inspired us to work on the next festival and actually for this time Under the name of no three thousand We invited other collectives to kind of think together with us What would be the festival of the future for you? Yeah, so we were asking all these people like different collectives from different backgrounds and It took us almost a year to plan the next platform We built this from scratch again like another platform The festival took place in Berlin in 2017 this time with a smaller group, but in the middle of the city so we had a headquarter and One other specialty of this festival was Any sort of GPS position was a potential venue So the festival could take place in someone's apartment in in the park In the professional venues, but also really anywhere like people started to join in from Tokyo from Sardinia from London Anything which was a GPS position is a potential venue I'm gonna show you a little bit of the platform itself It's up there. Okay, I'm gonna have to click like that I guess Yeah, this is the platform I give you a small demo or what you can do I think that gets more clear what you can do on Hoffmann 3000 You basically always start with creating resources because this is what you're gonna bring to the festival There's their marked to do that So people just bring whatever they want to share with everyone else. Yeah, there's different things It can be a skill. It can be an item. It can be something I don't know esoteric something completely virtual There's also somewhere. There is a panda as well Where is it? There it is pandan aga aga You can you can then create a place Give it a title give it a description upload some images give it an address or the actual GPS position I was talking about it doesn't work anymore. What's it? We don't use Google anymore That's the old version Or you can also define it as a virtual space which was also quite interesting many people created virtual spaces What does that mean like it's it's an event happening in your head Yeah, there's some other things like slot sizes you could define when I'm not home And all of these things and then other people could just create events. What's the title of the event? Description image. Where does it take place? Okay, cool The Friedrich Ludwig Jan Sportpark. We had a choir who made a concert there When is it maybe here and Then what resources do you need? Marode pandas A creative human I need and a transcriber is I already selected. Okay. Yeah, cool You can also directly see what resources are occupied at this time so you can't use them cool, and this is then actually a Everything you need to make a festival because then this event just pops up in the calendar and it's there And people can just come This is what we've done for four days. There's some other fun features here One is this activity stream. You see it's like anonymized animal avatars So we were experimenting with the thing that you just don't know we are working with It's just a randomized animal avatar We had a gift stream the whole festival was documented in in a series of millions of gifts and There's also a random meeting feature So if you feel bored, you can just click it and then it will put you together with random people in a random place at a random time So this is this is Hoffner 3000. This was what we've done 2017 But it's still being developed You can run your own festivals with this like the source code is available under this address and also we made an on-page with tutorials on how to set it up and how to Yeah, how to how to use it and Actually, there's also in the next year. There's two festivals happening using Hoffner 3000 The first one is the motor cool festival in Cologne in May And the second one is the fam music Which is not an actual festival but more a gathering of feminist activists So if you're interested, you can just write to their email Through all of these festivals we've been doing which were quite music focused we realized that self-curation decentralization Anonymization and all of these things. They're not exclusively interesting for music festivals It's more the other way around there's like communities which we're working on this for many many many many years for example the hacking community the Activist communities so we started to realize okay. This is this is much more interesting than only making music festivals with this So we found that the deeper cows fine in Berlin this year Whereas if Ian Vincent is also part from a part of And splatter a thousand became the fines magazine And stick with whole fine is dedicated to these kind of meta questions what are frameworks and how can we experiment with them? What does it mean? And let's just put them into reality and see what happens The next idea we're working on is then pure to ponder That's the that's the current project of the fine or one of the projects we're doing and there's also the whole idea Let's bring it some steps even further and just say let's how can we make the whole festival a hacker bill? How can this whole infrastructure be? be hacked like all the time So we decided to build a protocol on its own a protocol to organize resources events and places We decided to build this whole thing on top of scuttlebutt and maybe you have nerd about it some of you probably did it's Fantastic peer-to-peer social network protocol with a really beautiful community with Very very interesting and wonderful people You can go to their tea house in commona And I just say a few things about Peter Panda itself just very roughly we're gonna hear much more soon But basically what we are interested in in that protocol, which doesn't exist yet Well, we're about to start developing it and The first thing is it's it's peer-to-peer. So it's it's not running on any sort of centralized server infrastructure Which is great because you just open your laptop you start Peter Panda and you have a festival kind of And it comes very close to our whole idea of non curation like we don't want anyone to decide what this festival is So anyone can decide at any point Let's open our 10 laptops and this is our festival and The next thing is it's an open protocol So this gives us very interesting like opportunities to just say we just agree upon how we want to communicate But not what and how the data is being displayed So this gives completely different ideas of what a festival can be is that a 3d festival happening in virtual space Is it a festival for only bots? We we don't know and we also don't want to know We just we just want people give the opportunity to communicate with each other and the next thing is yeah, I mean if you have a decentralized festival What does it mean for in terms of temporality? Is it happening in over the whole year? Maybe maybe the festival never ends maybe it's just Different sudden bursts like occurring and this is maybe some sort of gathering Which you could name the festival maybe and the next thing is We're gonna learn about this soon Because of this cryptographic features Anyone is kind of able to interact with the system and your actions are your role in the system is defined by your actions And not by the permissions which you were given to you So it doesn't matter if you're an administrator visitor or participant And now we're going to hear it a little bit more how this actually works. So Sophie will tell you more. Thank you Okay Thank You Andreas The panda goes cyber and so like Andrea said I will now show you Are still growing ideas of how we like to design and implement the protocol We already started but there's still a lot of questions So as said Peter Panda will be a collection of tools for users bots and developers to set up such festivals Andreas talked about and As he also said it should be a really simple So one of our goals really is that everyone can use it and it is really accessible and you don't have to be a developer to use it Okay, first of all why peer-to-peer technology and and also basically what is it I'm sure a lot of people know the term but Yeah, it's always worth it to To remind yourself, I guess, okay Peer-to-peer or person-to-person is essentially about non-hierarchical social relations so In technical terms, it's an infrastructure. So everyone is equally privileged. There's no server and It's offline first so Yeah, and it's often first and What's also was very important for us and our decision to use a peer-to-peer protocol that this is really independent of cloud providers and Also peer-to-peer is at the relational dynamic through which people collaborate with one another to create value in the form of shared resources and The offline first character means also that you can just start to create your content Without internet connectivity So these were really basically a lot of pros for us to choose this in the first place Okay, let's dig a little deeper into the technical parts What's a person peer or user in this context, it's basically a cryptographic key pair Like a public and private key. I'm sure you know Which is generated when you open peer-to-peer It's the identity of the user and A user can be anyone. There's no distinction There it can be a visitor or an administrator. It can be it can be a bot. It can be a person or a collective It doesn't matter And this user shares Grades and shares shares events and resources How does the user do that so we use the secure scuttled but stack which provides penned only logs That means that each user has a feed of messages that form this log and everything is a message That cannot be modified once it is posted. So like here create is resource is a message also The messages reference to each other and you have to imagine it like a chain that is forming everyone creates the messages on top of the other message and on its own and It's quite elegant to use an append-only log because it uses a conflict-free replicated data type So this is useful in this peer-to-peer context or for us for a peer-to-punner Protocol because it prevents merge conflicts of shared messages So and as you can see a free user does this or forms it feeds its log on its own and the question is now the users in the peer-to-peer universe have to find and connect to each other and They do this through discovery methods and replication of the messages through the panda network To connect to others user broadcasts their identity to advertise their presence basically and Then they can replicate their logs with me which means they share their messages and here an interesting effect Comes from the offline first nature of peer-to-peer Remed imagine that there's a peer-to-punner event going on and depending on your setup or internet connectivity There are different views of this event possible Since some users might already have posted something but only shared that in their small group We are Bluetooth for example But not with users on other places If they were flying So as you can see here the yellow user Has not all messages from the blue one and the pink user doesn't have any messages from the yellow one at all and to our mind That could mean that there's not only one event going on but maybe many parallel ones and We think that this offers many possibilities for things to unfold Okay, so now Yeah, the data types we use and I already mentioned them They consist basically of users resources and events and at the moment Yeah, the moment we we use these notions, but We also think about other terms because sometimes they might be a bit limiting Anyway to remind you a user shares and creates events and resources a Resource in our context can be really anything can be a guitar. It can be a location and an event is Really basically just a set of resources For example a concert, so the pink event now uses the two yellow resources and peer-to-punner helps users coordinate the process of mapping available resources to the events that need them and So as you can see here the resources might be needed at more than one event at the same time and at this moment we think that a request authorization process can help and to To illustrate that I Show you some UI Examples we already thought of so peer-to-punner First of all could have a replication health state To understand so you can understand how well connected you are right now with others or it could also have a confirmation state of requested resources and This is to indicate how much the event is progress in its appropriations If I want more resources for my event I requested like so and The other user can accept or reject by request We think that we will initially implement the first come first served policy Where the user authorizes requests of resources how they come in? Or the system does it in an automatic array But there are also Many other possibilities you can think of Like you can let the system decide it randomly And there's also many many other more possibilities Which you can do with Peter Panda and now will Vincent Tell you about those and the adventures and dreams and future dreams of Peter Panda Hello Yes, so so fee told us about the implementation and if you are a technical person You might now imagine what the software could look like But if you look at these building blocks that Sophie described Clients resources and festivals these could be really a lot of different things and So I want to give some examples Sometimes also referencing some of the memories that and he has told you about in the beginning to yeah open up these concepts and Let you dream about what else these could be So let's start with the clients My client as you are probably imagining it right now is something like an app or a website that you go to to Look at the far plan the schedule of events or to make your own event in the festival but as the protocol offers just a Data stream a client could be a lot of other things A client can transform data to present or preserve us in alternative ways For example in this conference. We are lucky to be able to look at recordings and memories from past C3 Conferences, but that is not the case for a lot of other events and it would be nice to go back a couple of years later And look at what happened This is actually one Very strong argument. I think for peer to peer it allows you to own your data again So you have visited this event and now the data is on your computer. You can keep it. Nobody can take it offline Another example is that Clients can also be part of the festival itself you have all of this data available and You can use it creatively to create installations or other apps like the wonderful C3 nav app here and Because we have a unified data model that offers these resources and users All of these apps can reference each other and it would be more easy to make them Compatible with each other And I think this is really One of the crucial ideas of what this is about if you Think about what is the difference between Something like C3 where we are or an event like the fusion festival and other events where you have a Small group of organizers that create something that is then consumed by a lot of other people It's that these festivals or events opened up and Allowed visitors the people that come here to transcend this passive role of just consuming and instead bring themselves into the event and Now you walk through these spaces here and you see all of the beautiful things that people have brought here and What this does is it enables a sense of community You're not just going to somebody else's place and looking at what they did, but you can bring yourself into it and Make it part of yourself so some other examples of clients address already spoke about the random meeting idea and In that case it was part of the Koffnung 3000 software But if you have an open protocol like peer-to-panda Everybody can make something like a random meeting bot Bots could also provide data that can be used by other bots by processing historical data or remixing data and Now if you go from clients to What are the things that you do there? You request resources in order to make sessions make events make workshops In the end Sophie Shortly mentioned the possibility of I think you mentioned random authorization So there could be lots of different authorization kinds and These could enable for a completely different uses also so if you Use this software as a group you could have majority of where Access to resources only granted when a majority of the group says yes, this is okay You could have random off You could have video off where You only get access to technical equipment once you have watched instructional video or game off you need to correct the high score if you want to write on my electric box something So lots of possibilities and ways to be creative with this without asking For permission because anybody can extend this Now if you go to resources What is a resource it can be anything you bring to the venue and We saw some great examples from what Andreas talked about It could be cables a teddy bear a printer could also be access to a printer or a skill like if you're a mime performer, I could maybe request you to assist me in this presentation and Illustrate what I'm talking about Also, I heard that mimes are close friends of pandas So lots of possibilities Really interesting idea money resource so you could have something like 50 euro resource and then you say hey, I want to make this workshop But I need some stuff and then you use majority auth to let the group decide whether you can use this money to do this It could be that you need to Promote your event and you get access to the home page and the top spot in order to make your event really visible or maybe this is a virtual festival and the resource is just a 3d coordinate in virtual space So now these are the things that are happening within the event within the festival But what is a festival? What is this? It's just a gathering of people and Of course, this is like such a basic thing that is everywhere where humans are we always gather and I think we can be very creative with this if we use software to create new kinds of getting together So for example, we could have squad conferences. You're going to some conference and You notice there's people that are interested in something and You want to get them together, but there's no space in the conference itself use peer to panda to make your own squad conference It could be a conference where you don't know what you're talking about before Or it could be a permanent festival like if you have a hacker space or a fire in sauce You can use peer to panda to give access to the resources there to everyone without having a start and end so peer to panda is about providing decentralized infrastructure for self-organized events and As you see now, we have tried to make this as flexible as possible in order to Accommodate lots of different kinds of events but also there are some Qualities that we want to embed in the system and he has already hinted at this. There's things like Radical authorization. There's no admins that are privileged from the beginning everybody starts out as a Just a user just a client in the system It's offline first. So we don't bind ourselves to infrastructure and we also don't require being technically able to set up this infrastructure in order to start using peer to panda It's an open protocol. So it can be extended and Scuttlebutt secure scuttlebutt also already exists so there is already other software out there that is based on the same protocol and this is creating an ecosystem and I think it can be just wonderful and Last but not least Computers have this rigid way where they are very precise and very ordered but You cannot deny that in this order. There's always a little bit as a spark of chaos and Yeah, we would like to use this spark to ignite a campfire for us to get cozy and Tell stories to each other Yes, and you can become peer to panda too We have a github where we have started writing the specification and we will now start implementing Also, if you're not a technical person, you can just get in touch with us. There's a chat also linked there And if you want to use peer to panda, we would love to support you in setting it up and we want to create a festival and We want to invite all of you to work with us to make it happen in 2021 a festival using peer to panda organized by the Liby Karlsverein and We will have a call for our collectives for all the people That want to contribute something as a group We will have a call for bots if you're a hacker and You want to program something build something and play around with a system You're all invited What is this? I think this is the birth of the panda Yeah, thank you very much to get on stage. So Wow, this was cool. Thank you We have questions. So if you have questions, please line up at the microphones here in the hall And we have a question from the internet, please Yes, first question would be with the ephemeral system. What's it take on deleting data? Or is it leaking or deleting deleting? Just again, please Lushen deleting of course so first of all If you download something now and it's on your computer then it's hard for somebody else to delete it And this will be the same case here Of course, it would be very impractical if there was the way to unpublish a resource or cancel an event Okay, thanks microphone one, please. Thank you for your talk. I have a very practical question So there's resources, it's great. I can have a book I can have stuff and all that but my experience from like Having these kind of resources sometimes They they're not used in the way that is like well to these resources. How do you handle these kind of things? I mean, you didn't talk about these kind of like I Would say like the ugly details because Yeah Yeah, I think I think this is something Like technology can't solve in a way if you could write it in a description text like how this resource should be treated You can of course you could have some sort of authorization mechanism Which prepares the person to use the resource in a nice way Like maybe you make this person watch a film for 10 hours and then you can get your book your favorite book It's a really important book But I think most of all it's just the person-to-person Interaction so at one point you will meet this person at the festival and went will hand over the book I think that's maybe even more crucial than the actual Implementation then yeah Be at the person's to handle it the normal way you get yourself an advocate and then you fight this through Excuse me. I think I didn't hear it acoustically Okay, I was just being a little bit overdoing it. So so then you will do it the Traditional way you will get yourself an advocate and you will fight it through to get redemption for your book that was destroyed Yeah, probably so microphone to please I Think one of the first things that I was thinking about was How this technology could help Protests like in Chile and Hong Kong Because I think this is like exactly what they need especially When we're talking about decentralized and offline. So my question was and what's your ideas for having an offline? infrastructure for peer-to-panda Yeah, I think this I mean these these thoughts they came up on Also by other people on the way I think it's a quite I mean like we've seen it with similar peer-to-peer software people went to jail for the Barcelona protests So it's a sensitive topic. I think but And source code got deleted from github But generally I think we don't so far the scuttlebot protocol doesn't provide 100% like encryption except often private messages So there is like there is like things which needed to be considered. I think the scuttlebot protocol also already has modules to allow tour onion routing So there's many things which could be interesting to be built into peer-to-panda as well and I think there couldn't can be ways to To make this more secure and actually really really strong for these people. There's also People working right now on private groups in scuttlebots. So it's not only like there's actually larger groups having very secure communication So yeah, there can be there can be ways to think about right now. We don't include that in our thinking but Yeah, it's not out definitely not. That's that was not really my question I get that. This is a big concern from privacy and security, but like the infrastructure. How do These devices communicate Offline, I'm just Yeah, I mean one way would be You could do it via Bluetooth when it's very in near fields networking And another way is to have like local area networks Which which are not connected to the internet Okay or mesh networks. Yeah, thanks. Okay, okay good Microphone one then I think Okay, so first of all, thank you so much for this talk I've heard about peer-to-panda before of course, but this is the first time I fully understood it and the first thing that struck me was very similar to what the previous question was in a way and It's also like What defines festival? It could be demonstration. It could be like bunch of people gathering around music or dancing or whatever right but Resource could also be like hey, I want to contribute to This section of the code so in a sense what I'm hearing is also that The infrastructure that you're building was peer-to-panda is Something that could potentially be used to organise around anything almost like a DAO Okay, cool, that's awesome So blockchain Thank you self Yeah, I want I'm just thinking about something because I think that Was your question answered because that's something else I would like to say about this My question. I think I was wondering if you guys have been thinking along those lines Yeah, and also like I'd love to hear more on like what your thoughts are on that so one of the thing that I've been hearing from people that I have talked to about this project is like Okay, what is the problem that you're trying to solve really? What is the focus problem? And I think this is a thinking that is very common in software engineering and Like I think also that you were getting at this but we think of this more like a playground than a solution for a problem It's like thinking what other ways could there be to get together and what new things could we do? And of course, it's wonderful if this can be applied to things that are already out there And I think it's maybe even more interesting to see what other things we could make Okay, thanks microphone to please It was such a beautiful talk and I'm deeply sorry that I have a maybe a little bit depressing question How do you keep people who fundamentally don't share your values from using p2p? How do you keep a neo-nazi group from using p2p and for organizing a neo-nazi music festival? Or is it the situation where it is a tool and it's just you can use the tool for good or for bad? I mean, that's a that's a very common question and problem in the peer-to-peer space Which is not answered I think for myself I can just say I don't know like I have I see Nazis on the street I See them probably on the internet as well You know like the problem is it's a real problem I see it anywhere and it will definitely also happen in that space and I don't think that any space like protects you from that really But One very practical answer is it's possible to block malicious peers or peers who just don't want to be Replicating their data with So there is they can be some sort of social Network which trusts each other but also prevents like certain groups to to not be part of it By just blocking these peers This is how for example Scuttlebutt is also doing it right now And I think kind of also the only way right now I know there's one person in the Scuttlebutt gang doing research on that It's a it's a yeah the PhD you know and you when do you publish it? In March, yeah, what can we what can we read about it? Cblgh.org Yeah, Cblgh.org so that's really interesting research which has to be done, but I think like blocking is one way and Yeah And probably one way in the long term is to make use festivals with pure to partner and Change our society so that we have to don't have those problems in the future So any more questions my microphone one I see So perhaps before or beyond the Nazi question How can I say I have always this provocative questions for anyone who is in tech How can you imagine? apps or whatever that actually are foster live communication instead of I'm bringing it down and replacing it through our digital communication and that would be in one sense of in Constructive critique that I would like to make to you because of from the art coming from the arts Although I'm very seduced by the idea of not curating I'm very seduced and even more seduced about bringing down Autorship I would say but anyway, I would I'm very seduced How can you I mean it's very it's not very inclusive to have an app like that I mean, it's it's reserved to the people that can master it It's a certain it works well in Berlin, but well, so what would you say to that? you Yes, I think you are right that if you create a technological system. Yes, you exclude people who might not like or might not be Comfortable using it. I think also if you're using a social way of interacting could also exclude people who are not comfortable using that I think best thing would be to have both and in this case What's for me very interesting is that this creates an affordance like The resources that might be in here. They might be out there now But I don't know about that and just by having it presented to me I I hope that it creates new ideas or Thinking outside of the box that wouldn't be there otherwise and the best thing would be to have a mix of all kinds of interaction and and Creation processes like especially if you do it in a physical space There's always lots of talking to people and just doing things and you don't need to do this with the software always Good we have one more question from the internet signal angel before you get cold Thanks put a code on I Think the question is a little bit related How do you plan on tackling abuse and controls on the platform? Are there any concepts for that? Maybe nothing. I mean what I said before about this this known problems. I mean not send the Fediverse That's another example like there's the same thing with Nazis having their own instances Fraud Yeah, we are right now considering That you have to follow a person before you start replicating the data with them So there is not there's like an opt-in into Into choosing if you trust someone if you want to replicate the data with that person with that peer So this is one barrier you have to maybe go through first Um Yeah, maybe Okay, thanks microphone So thank you for your talk. I think it's really cool project. I was wondering if you have a plan planned Target user group and if you think about threats to them because yeah, we have protest groups We heard about protest groups and I was wondering like what is your idea of? Let's say I work for the police and I make an event or a festival To arrest people and so I think it's a very great project But I was just wondering like what is your recommendation for usage or your ideas on where it shouldn't be used or should be used Yeah, I mean I I don't have a clear answer to that except of and I think maybe I hope that this came through in this talk is like Technologies not only technology, but also the people you are surrounding yourself with and how you communicate it So we this is why we want to work with scuttlebot for example and not make a blockchain application There's great people in that industry as well, but there's also many many people we don't like agree with And also it's it's a completely different narrative surrounded by it and maybe not voluntarily Maybe these projects are great, but still the vibe is there scuttlebot has a vibe, which is just fantastic and the police Would usually not start looking there for because it's it's just like there's this wrong community of great people and the great Great energy and this is not done with technology. This is just people and and communities and I Think this also goes a little bit for our work with blood right housing I mean you've seen it a little bit we come from an underground noise scene experimental music scene is it's not like This is not the big festivals. This is not this is not button like I don't know a big pop festival. So So I think also like already this is like This is maybe even more important than the actual part of the software And I think this is always what we what we think about before we actually build it. So it's like Yeah, like who are you identifying with how do you communicate it? It's maybe different than if we would have started like a software project right from the beginning would have communicated it Just as a software project and then throw it on artists. That's that's a different story And I think this is maybe a little bit how you can steer it, but of course we don't have full control of that Thanks Great Yeah, sure and I think also that in order to really control it in order to really prevent this We would have to embed mechanisms that we don't want to embed like we would have to have exactly the Authoritarian mechanisms in order to be sure that this never happens Yeah Good Michael for two please Hey, and thank you for this really interesting talk. I would like to shift the conversation back to the artistic perspective What I find fascinating and what you did is the way in which Platform culture converges with platform art or platform based art Which I think we're starting to see more and more now and it comes seems to me like what you've done is taken this The construct of a festival broken it down to its possible components in a modular kind of way And allowed people to kind of like extrapolate that and use it in their own way still and this is not intended as a critique It's a curiosity Would you say that because of the particular structure of your platform you see repetitions in the types of festivals that people are Creating because they're basically using similar modular units that you've sort of kind of made accessible Have you standardized the concept of a festival and to what extent? Yeah Very good question. Thank you I think this is a little bit It's a very I think that something we are we are thinking about So far our answer to that was build a new platform for every festival I mean you see in that all of these platforms were built from scratch for each festival They have a completely different name. They have completely different settings. So it doesn't become that thing of like, okay There's trans mediator. We're going there every year. It's super boring and nothing changes And it's just like, you know maintained for 20 years and And and you could have also just like, you know start something new from scratch all the time This is a little bit our philosophy. We want to you know, build new things all the time from scratch also to To not jump it fall into this thing of like structuring into well and also for the participants who maybe came to both festivals They couldn't they could relate to it a little bit in the sense of maybe you get used to the chaos That's maybe one aesthetic or characteristic of these sort of festival There's a certain chaos element some people don't like and I understand them very well. It depends on your mood Maybe and how you feel right now and I think Yeah, but I think this is this is very important questions one has to I think it once again like Look at outside of the technology, how do you announce the festival and what groups do you announce it? This already shapes shapes the festival a lot, it's not so much the technology and also I once again Oh, maybe actually the first time I'm saying it Deliber cows fine, for example, I mean right now. There's three developers on stage I'm an artist as well, but musician but We are also have technical backgrounds the rest of our association doesn't I think if you would have put a person here on stage, which is Which is not us then you would have heard a completely different talk and This is the good thing. I think this is the really nice thing like you There's many people who actually come to the festivals and they don't use the platform once They just made or what happened was someone booked a 24-hour slot in the basement and just made a noise festival outside of everything So these things can happen and and they're great So people start like Yeah, finding their own paths within it or ignore it completely one more thing in addition to that in the Lieberkhaus fine, which Kind of is like an umbrella for these kinds of projects. We also tried to think of this by Having a specific chaos officer. So this is a person in our fine whose responsibility is to Watch our processes and when things become stable to just bring some chaos. Let's destroy something I think that's very important Okay Thank you microphone water, please Hi, I have a very practical question We just started organizing MCH, which will be a hacker camp in the Netherlands in 2021 with about 4,000 hackers in empty grass field, you know, what it's like I'll be coordinating the musical program Preferably we don't have mainstream bands, but also not too experimental that nobody shows up So hopefully we will have every subchar Presented on the camp. So how can I use peer-to-panda to mobilize the musical taste of all the participants? Without giving too much attention to one who shouts the loudest but get all the sub genres presented on stage so could you For example organize taste groups or moderate or have a Spotify list and people vote or please help me out with that So I think that is quite difficult to do if you also give control to everybody else like you give up control in the sense I think what you can do is to create some kind of Expectation by saying This is the kind of music that we like But after all I think that you really have to give up control and see what happens and it could be that it's Not exactly the thing you like, but it could also be really great Yeah The music people like in general So that they might organize some peer-to-panda uncertain musical genres or something like that. What would that be possible practically? Of course, I mean this is a very open-sourced thing to say but you can heck it yourself We know yeah, this is an interesting thought like how can we embed? Being able to set expectations as the person who first creates an event or maybe even to give the Possibility to the group to communicate expectations to everybody else like what kind of mix of music would be nice Interesting idea. It doesn't have a voting system You Mean a voting system to do what like yeah, you got a big list of bans and people can just vote I mean this could be something like you could have a band that is requesting access to the main stage at the prime time and then what kind of authorization mechanism do you use for this you could have a Authorization mechanism that gives everybody who attends the festival the option to Wait in on this question and say yeah, I don't really want to see them and if there's a majority then they go Okay, that sounds cool. Thank you So, thank you very much again for your talk round of applause. Please again