 Okay, so it's live for me, live for you? Yeah, well, it says live on your screen, so it's live for me. Yeah, all right, well, hello everybody, welcome. We are talking today about Othello and New Boy, which are in my stack over here precariously. I don't really wanna move it. You know what Othello looks like, you know what New Boy looks like, it's in the thumbnail. So, like maybe quickly without spoilers, did we think New Boy was a good retelling about that Othello or not? It was okay, it's the best Hogarth I've read, we've read so far, I think. I agree. But yeah, it was just okay, I wasn't blown away. Yeah, you've read one more than me because you've read Vinegar Girl, but of the two, like now this is my third one and I would say it's the best that we've read so far, but yeah, it's not the best. Like not best retelling ever, but best Hogarth so far. Yeah. And I think that like we've been talking about like why other retellings seem to be more successful that aren't the Hogarth project. And I think we keep like running into the same thing, it's like they're getting all of the plot points and like the major themes, but they don't seem to have the feeling that Shakespeare's plays do. Like it always seems to be like hitting checkboxes instead of actually trying to create an experience for the reader. So when we were talking about exactly that, like why these don't seem to be working all that well and that it's kind of putting the card before the horse that like when you're commissioned to retell something and now like that's the project as opposed to you as an author like reading Othello and feeling called to retell it or just like sitting there one day and thinking, I really wanna tell a story like this, you know what? If I kind of did it like a retelling of Othello, I think that would really like work. If I like where you are already thinking this as opposed to being like it's like a school assignment and you're like forcing it to get this mold and then like even the best authors like Margaret Atwood is a fantastic author and she did a really good job retelling the Tempest but it still felt more like here is your assignment and she's like, okay, and I hit the, here's the rubric and I hit the boxes and like, do I get an A as opposed to like it organically coming to the author as a project and they feel called to complete. Right, and for like New Boy specifically, like as a Shakespeare person, I found the retelling interesting but I don't really know if I would have loved it or even like finished it as like a non Shakespeare reader. Like it was okay. I mean, it was short, so like maybe I would have. Well, something I think we're finding with all of these is that they also don't stand on their own at all. Like you have to either be familiar with the play or to have intentionally familiarized yourself with the play before reading it. Otherwise you're going to be like, what? Right. Whereas you can watch Lion King and not know it's hamlet and it stands on its own. Right, in the same way, like you can watch 10 things I hate about you and it's like, okay, it's, you don't know that it's taming of the true but like it stands as long and I feel like New Boy doesn't really do that. And we've been talking about all of the things that we would have tweaked in these books to make them more engaging as like stand-alones. More engaging as stand-alones and also to be actually truer to the play. Right. And like, and I think we're talking truer as in like the feelings at the play evokes, right? What? Othello was your least favorite Shakespeare. It's okay, Arisa, you can leave. I'm just kidding. I don't know, it's one of your favorites, right? It is, I would say. Like I always struggle because I kind of don't want to, like it's hard to compare tragedy and comedy but like if Chris comes to shove, if you made me say what is my favorite Shakespeare play, I would say Othello. But like, it's definitely my favorite tragedy. Like no question about that. So what is it about it that's making it your favorite? I think, I don't know, I just really connect with like the messy emotions of the characters and the way that, I don't know, the way that people will become their own worst enemies. And so like, yes, Iago is the villain of this play but in essence, Iago is really just egging on the villain inside of you. And it is Othello himself that becomes the villain of his own story. He is the author of his own demise and Iago pushed him there but it's not a story about like this bad guy over there and me versus them and like, it's very much about like the internal psychies of characters. And that's what Iago is able to tap into and that's why he's able to do what he does because he's not actually, like when he turns the audience at one point, after he's talked to Cassio and offered his advice to Cassio about like what he should do and then he turns to the audience and he's like, you call me villain? Like this advice was freely given. It was genuinely good advice. You can't disagree. That was good advice. So how am I the villain? And you're like, yeah, you're just really good at manipulating people. And like taking the ugliest parts of ourselves essentially, right? Like he puts a mirror up and says like, we have these feelings and Amelia kind of echoes that, right? About Othello, like she's like, of course he turned out to be a jerk. Like all men are almost. He's also filling kind of property almost. When you expect that of someone and you treat them with the add expectation, they're gonna start to live up to those expectations. Like when you treat someone with suspicion, they begin to like be defensive and then that makes you more suspicious. Like, because that's what happens also with Othello and doesn't know when he starts to be suspicious. And then when he starts to behave in a way that's kind of confrontational and she's picking up on the fact that he's displeased. So then because she gets defensive, that only confirms his suspicions. And like, yeah. It puts them into this like cycle that they can't get out of. And then it kind of circles around like, well, if only we can find the truth, then it'll set us free like from this cycle. But the truth continues to move around. Like it's so hard to end down. Like we as an audience know that what it is, but it can show that like in real life, like the truth is always shadowed and colored by our own perceptions and our own like ugly weaknesses. And it's also a play that I think it's just been interesting and like, you know more about this than I do, but just in how the interpretation of it has changed as well as how it has enabled people to make points as times have changed about, you know, this race about gender, about society, about just different points. And it like has stood the test of time I think for that reason because each new generation finds something new in it that in a new adaptation of it can highlight or can tap into or sees itself reflected in it because these issues of like domestic abuse and about jealousy and about racism, like they are not gone unfortunately. So like they are as true then as they are now. And I think that the race point is really interesting because it is something that like this play can easily politicize and that and other like, and it's really one of only Shakespeare's plays that actually handles that. I mean, you could make the argument that the merchant of Venice kind of views Jewish people as like a separate race. You could talk. We just talked about how the merchant of Venice is classified as a comedy. And I'm like. It's the most, it's the most uncomfortable comedy. Are we sure about that? Are we sure we want to say this is a comedy? In my head as I was thinking about it, I was thinking about it as a tragedy. And I was like, oh, wait, no, they have like a happy ending. I'm like, when you pull like, when you get like collections, like it is a comedy, officially. And I'm just like. But one thing really interesting about Othello is that like during the like when Shakespeare was writing it, like Moorish people were kind of, you know, they were more like exotic. It wasn't, which is like still a form of racism, but it wasn't like racism as we were thinking as we think today. It's like racism as we think about it today. Wasn't like flavors of racism to choose from. And so it's like, you don't want to say that like people back then weren't racist, but they didn't actually have an idea of race. They just had an idea of like country. So it's more of like a xenophobia, which again is racism. I know it's like semantics, but it's important for. Well, it's also, I mean like the, I think it highlights it also the way that it does among his father thinks of Othello, because like he's absolutely fine inviting Othello to his house to talk. And he rejected Rodrigo's suit for Othello. He was like, you're not good enough for my daughter and Rodrigo, like there's no indication that he's like anything other than like a white Venetian. So like that's not good enough. So like the fact about Othello not being an appropriate person for his daughter to marry, like race is certainly a component. Like it's not not a component, but it's not the only thing. Like it's not like, well, you're black and that's like, that's it. That's the only reason like he's just kind of like, no one's good enough for his daughter and like definitely not this guy. Right. And I think like as it was performed, it gets more and more tense as the, it gets more and more tense like as the centuries go on because like it's original audience. There would have been like black face. And so I mean, people would have just taken it as like Othello's this like exotic character who's like not English. And so that would have been a big deal. But like when you get it, like he's othered, but it's not this like huge like racism thing. Right. And that's definitely part of it, but. And he doesn't kill Desdemona for that reason, which is something that then takes on its own life form when you get to like the Victorian era. So like in Shakespeare's time, he didn't kill her because he was black. It was that Iago was able to tap into like his like, you know, Othello's own insecurities. And like other people's like distrust of people who were not British, right? I know they're like technically Italian in this play, but I mean. Well, I mean, again, the play plays a lot with just again, the perception of the other and how well can you know anybody around you? Because like, again, everything that Iago says, like, other than, I mean, he does have some outright lies. Like when he talks about like, what he has absolutely heard Casio say or like where the hangar chief came from. But a lot of what he says isn't like, you can't say that's a lie. Because all he does is just ask questions, like leading questions where he's like, are you sure she's loyal? Which like, that's just a question. And if he was, yes, well, then great. And then when he just points out, I mean, she deceived her father, which is not untrue. She did do that. And he's like, I'm just saying, I'm like, you are just saying. What have been the bigger crime, right? The fact that like she deceived her father, the fact that the play starts with that. I mean, that is probably more hugely taboo than the fact that she married Othello with the fact that she married without her father's permission. And her father like borderline disowns her because of that. Yeah, exactly. And we see that happening in merchant events too. Like those are like that, that is the bigger issue in the play. And like that is the thing that like sets off the ability for everyone to kind of question her motives, the fact that she would even do this to her father. And the only reason why like the people in power at the beginning don't really take the father's suit seriously is because they're going to war. And they're like, hey, look, we have bigger fish to fry than who your daughter married. So like, let's just like move on. Whatever, sort it out yourselves. But like in the Victorian era, when like black people started appearing on stage and like when there was more like a realist performance of these things and like racial tensions were really starting to grow. Cause like in the Victorian era is when you start to get like, you know, people trying to like prove like the demeaning of people through science, which is like, oh, you know, a lot of bullshit. But like you get like more of an idea of like race and racism starting then. And there are like these famous performances, like when they would try to perform a fellow, there would be people who like couldn't handle the fact of the black man killing a white woman on stage. But there is like instances of like audience members leaping onto the stage to like protect Desdemona. And like there were, you know, people like that, like people actors playing a fellow would get like beat up because of this, which like you don't hear about in any other play. And like we know that like in Shakespeare and a lot of those plays people are killing women all the time for like stupid things. Like, but this is the only play that like, that it caused a visceral audience reaction in people where they would actually leap out of the stage. And that like, yeah. I was gonna say, so this gets into something that new boy failed to have in it, but it is in the play. And that was another thing that like because of how a new boy was structured, I was like, well, this is missing entirely. So like it is alluded to by Iago. And I love that about this too, that it is once again Iago's perception of reality and nothing that has proved on page that Iago thinks that our fellow like slept with his wife at some point. And like Amelia basically like alludes to it as well later when she's like, that's like how you thought this crazy thing and he's like, be quiet. Cause he clearly still thinks it. So like he is the like the green eyed jealous monster that is just like infectiously like spreading his jealousy to other people. So he's making Othello see through his own eyes, like his suspicious gaze that landed on his own wife and Othello. He's turning Othello into himself in that way and saying, you're gonna see your wife the way that I saw my wife. And then he's also just like jealous of Othello's position and thinks that he doesn't deserve it. Well, Iago says it several times like I should be in this position. But then he also says that I will be like that wife for wife, he's gonna be revenge basically. I don't think that Iago in the very beginning sets out to make sure that doesn't wanna die. So that just kind of like spirals into that. And he's like, yeah, I'm going with this. But like he just is just bitter and he's like, I'm gonna get you back. You don't get to have a happy marriage because in my perception of the world you ruined mine and you have this high position. No, I'm gonna make you destroy yourself and I'm gonna make you destroy your marriage and I can't see you be happy. In the RSC production that we watched before this they actually make Iago black too. And it was really interesting because I feel like by making both characters the same race it really highlights how jealous and angry Iago is. Like in the Kenneth Branagh Othello Kenneth Branagh tries to make Iago like charming. Like he tried, you know, because it's Kenneth Branagh. So he tries to like make him this like charming kind of character who's like always in control of his own emotions. But like the one thing that I thought that this production did well is that like Iago was angry and like he was frustrated and he was so jealous. And it sort of- So he's kind of an agent of chaos more than someone in control of this plan. You just keep sowing doubt where he sees the opportunity. It's not like he has the end goal in mind and it's like all of these perfect pieces to my perfect plan. It's more like, oh, if I tell you this oh, that'll mess up this up. And like, oh, I just see you over there like what if I just like nudge that? Like he just keeps seeing opportunities to sow chaos. And I feel like we all know that kind of person that person who's so like bitter and unhappy in their own experiences that they just want to make everybody else unhappy. And again, I don't think that he sets out for anybody to die. He just wants everybody to like have a downfall. It's just that like everybody's death ends up being convenient to him. Yeah, and he doesn't put a stop to it either. When it turns into like now we're getting into killing and he's like, okay. Yeah, that's fine. He then like embraces the chaos because at the end of the fellow he even kills Amelia kind of unnecessarily because like- He's already spilled the beans. He's already spilled the beans so she's not preventing it. And he does it in front of everybody. And so it's just kind of like he just gives in to this. Well, at that point he's like if I'm coming down, you're like falling with me. Like I'm really caught now. So like whatever. Everybody's going down. So I do think that's really interesting. And the Casio one was so silly in this. Well, he's always kind of like just a silly handsome boy. But like it's just the way that this one was like, okay, well, all we're left now is this like boy. Hey guys. So yeah, in New Boy they're all school children which is an interesting choice because these are very kind of adult emotions that Othello deals with in particular like the domestic violence. Like it's something that is quite an adult thing that just to say that children aren't ever angry or abusive or anything like that. But what is missing then in how this was constructed because New Boy all takes place in one day basically maybe two days. And there's no, in the beginning of Othello the play like it's again, Iago alludes to the fact and the audience never sees it so they can't judge for themselves. But Iago alludes to the fact that he believes that Othello slept with his wife. And so you're like, well, I don't know if that's true but you think this is true and that's egging you on. And the fact that Desdemona and Othello like have known each other for quite some time and like you don't get to see that but you hear about it and about how they got to know each other and how she slowly fell for him and his perspective on why she fell and her perspective on why she fell and the dad's perspective of like not realizing she was falling but like it had been going on for some time and that after all that time she deceived her father and whatever. But in New Boy, they like meet and like the first day that he's at school should they're like holding hands and like a couple now and it's just like why would like the motivations behind Iago's actions like you could still have any school children with a long time school rivalry where like on the playground there are those kinds of rivalries that for kids because emotions are so high when you're a kid you could totally like take things to an extreme degree. So Iago could have been developing some kind of like maybe not like you slept with my wife because they're children but some kind of a jealousy like that that is not necessarily like justified and that that's kind of driving him towards wanting to take down the off-hello character but there just wasn't that because they just met. Yeah, and like seventh grade would be like I feel like middle school and high school would be better but they were like what, sixth grade? Sixth grade. Yeah, they were about to go to middle school I think. Yeah, so they were like super young. So and like we were trying to decide like why this young? Like if it was, I don't know. And I think you said something about like how children's like emotions extreme, you know, swing to the extreme and like children can be petty because they're like immature and you know, all of that. And it was like one of those things again where it's like it could have worked but they just didn't do enough. It's funny because like the Macbeth retelling had Oh, for non-Americans, fifth grade is what? 11 years old? 10. 10, 11? Yeah, so they were like 10, 11. And like seventh grade would be like 13. So at least like you're hitting puberty. Like most people are hitting puberty a little bit more. It's like when you start to have like crushes and maybe two that are like officially kind of like together and this is all very new. And that's another reason why everyone would be kind of like heightened emotions because they've never really it's always been like boys and girls together kind of like asexually when you're children because you're just kind of just children. And then you're starting to get puberty and people starting to discover sexual feelings and et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. And like I think what the book then ended up doing was like just focusing on the race portion of it that like everyone was just uncomfortable because Othello was black. Except for D. Except for D. And that's why Othello likes her because she treats him like a normal person. But I think when you do would just focus on that element then you lose like the rest of it. Like you lose some of the emotional thrusts behind some of the moves that like some of the actions that people are taking. But again, like it could have been borderline the same setup if it had just been where like the Othello what was the Othello voice came? I know like they maybe didn't. Osei? Osei. That he had come to the school before and we don't have to start there. It can be just like the play where we just know that like this happened and we get flashbacks to it or like it's alluded to that like at the beginning of the semester that he had came to school and then over these months like he and D started sitting next to each other and started talking more and that he was doing really well in school and he started he was it was no time before he was top of the class and Yago used to be top of the class and that like these kinds of things could have been put in place very easily without changing the story very much at all. And you could still keep most of the elements of like where this boy came from and to like his racial background and about how he has at other schools been treated and how he's brought that to this. Like all of that can still be there but you there's no reason for this to take place over the course of one day. I don't understand that choice. And like it kind of makes the ending feel so anti-climactic like and you don't know if that's how she meant to do it. Like, you know, I just don't get like the emotional part at the end. I was like stressed out because I don't like it when children die. So I was worried that like all of these children would end up like dead on the playground but like, I don't know. It's all like, you don't even know if anybody died or if they all just like got hurt and like is Mimi like paralyzed? Like it was so random. Yeah. And I mean, I feel that too because she obviously was willing to diverge from the play. Obviously, and like we just said like that they didn't know each other before and that Yango doesn't have any previous reason to be jealous. Things have been changed. So since you made it school children you could have an ending that mirrors the events of Othello in terms of like who has like been betrayed or who has something irrevocable happen to them that doesn't have to be death. So like if the result of this was that Othello got de-expelled or something which is something that is you can't like it's not suspended expelled as forever. So like that would be at the level of drama that we're at with school children. We're like, that's a heavy thing and that messes up someone's life and that will go with her forever because it's like on her record. So like it could be at that level and still hit those notes and still tap into those betrayals and those irrevocable actions and how you've ruined your own happiness without it like, we went with school children who've just met but then we went full on for the everybody's dying in the end of the week. Yeah. But like even though he did die like Othello like falls off the plate like the jungle gym. Like a suicide kamikaze like for my country jump. I was like. Fade to black. Like, I don't know. I just, I don't know. It was fine. It was, it was so like, I have to, so for, I gave it like a high rating because I felt like the writing itself. I felt throughout invested and compelled and I felt like I was feeling these children's feelings. Like, and I kept thinking to myself like, they're going to kill each other in the end. Like, I bet she won't go there. Cause so far, like this seems on the level of where school children are at. And so far how these jealousies and loves are going is believable. Like they think a lot more complexly than these children would. Like the thought process of Mimi and like how she's going to be with him and then exchange like this thing. So she doesn't have to be with him. I was like, that's all, that's a lot for a 10 year old to be thinking, but okay. And I felt interested and invested in like this kind of new background for Osei and how he's been treated at schools and how he internalizes it and how he accepts it or butts against it depending on the situation. Like I felt a lot of that was well written and I felt interested and invested. But then every time it kind of like forced itself to mirror Othello is when I was like. Yeah. I don't even like, so Mimi is supposed to be the Amelia character. And she has like magical powers. Like she gets a headache when things are about to go bad. And I was like, that's a very random insert to something. That had been something that happened in Othello. Then I'd be like, I see why you're doing it, but that's not even in Othello. No, and like, and they make her very like they make her weird and quiet and shy. And it's like the great part about Amelia is that she's like, I don't know. She kind of says it how she sees it and. Yeah. And she has like some of the best monologues in the play. She has better monologues than Desdemona has. So like, so then to like make her this like weepy girl who has like premonition headaches. Like I don't know. It was the bizarre choice. And then she's the one that like, cause we don't really know what happens with Osei cause it's like fades to black. So like maybe he died. Maybe he just jumped off a jungle gym in which case was like, I jumped off a plenty of jungle gyms when I was a kid and it did not affect me at all. You just, you just jump off cause you're a kid and it doesn't matter. So like. But like I asked me again, like how, I don't know. And then like. So D definitely didn't die on page. Osei might like we don't, it's open-ended, but like he didn't die on page either. The only one who like I actually got horribly injured is Mimi that she got paralyzed. And I was like, why? Yeah. Like it does. And then like Iago, the Iago character is just let out. Like, I don't know, suspended. It's so weird. So the ending was kind of a mess. It was. And you don't really know like what she was doing with that again. Yeah. Cause like again, like in that moment before we totally got to the end when it was just like Osei is like finally like confronting her because like it's worked and he's now feels jealous and he feels like he has the proof of it. And that when he like throws her down on the playground, I was like, yes, this isn't keeping with school children. This is how this would go. You would like knock him down to the playground. And then I was like, oh no, is she dead because she like accidentally bumped her head. And then that would fit it. Cause I'd be like, okay, it's really far that she's dead. But also that could totally happen. That kids are like playing around or like angry on the playground. And they accidentally killed somebody that he wouldn't purposely kill her, but that she would end up dead. And I was like, oh, like, is that what's going to happen? Cause that that would work. And then that didn't happen. She woke up and she was fine ish. And I was like, so where are we going with this now? And then it like the actual ending. I was like, um, no. And she just like runs home. Yeah. Like sad. Like she doesn't like, I don't know. Doesn't like fight for herself. I mean, it's not really, I don't know. Her book, I guess they kind of made it like she, the author really focused on Osei, which is fine. Like, and I feel like again, if she had just done that, like if she had just made this Osei's book instead of trying to get everybody's perspective. And if she really needed to like talk about race in America, like, which is like what she was gesturing to, that I feel like she should just like leaned in to that like inspiration and fully gone for it. But if we're going to talk about a retelling doing race in America, oh, does a much better job. That's a new thing. Yeah. And like O is like a nineties movie with Makai Fiverr and Julia Stiles, which I have not seen in like a decade, but I remember- And Doc Hartnett, who's actually a really great Iago. And like that really is a much better and they're high school students, which I think works better than like elementary age. Because like- We always talked about how elementary age could be made to work, but not how she did it. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, if you're going to do race and like then lean into it and make the book about that like really get into it. But it's like the book was trying to do. And I think this is what's the problem with all of these retellings is that they're trying to do both. Like they kind of get into their own thing, but then they, whenever they revert back to trying to take the stake. That's what I'm talking about. Did you ever watch Wishbone on PBS? Oh, I grew up on that. It's this little dog. And like he would like, he was like, it's like a real live action with like actors and like he's the pet dog, but you can hear his thoughts. And like he knows all the classics. So then it'd be like Wishbone in like Phantom of the Opera and like he is the Phantom of the Opera, this little dog. And like they would actually like, it would be like a super abridged version of like some classic of like the Odyssey or like of Rip Van Winkle. And like Wishbone was always in it, this little dog who's like, he's now one of the characters in it. Cause he's like the smart dog. And the kids like have no idea how smart their dog is. So a lot of my knowledge of classics, if I haven't read it, it's from Wishbone. Well, my knowledge are those like illustrated classic books. I don't know if you've ever seen those. There's like, I don't know if you've ever seen those. And I did, like I didn't realize that they were like abridged classics. So for a long chunk of my life, I thought that I had actually read like all of these, like treasured books. Anna Karenina in fourth grade. And I was like, look how smart I am. And then when I was like an adult, like college age, I was like, wait, these are abridged. And like for children, they aren't like the actual classics. Yeah. But anyway, back to O being better. Yeah. Yeah. I think, and even like stage beauty, which is another movie we watched this week, it really kind of gets to pieces of the play that like, like that, the way, when they perform the ending scene together, like you feel like you've seen the whole play. Like there are ways to really put into like that emotion, but all of the emotion in all of the Hogarth retellings, I just never feel like I, like I get the sense of it. Well, I've been like for a new boy in like the middle bits where it wasn't really doing anything that was like an Othello retelling where it was just purely like these kids talking and you kind of hear his backstory and it kind of how he feels about his family and kind of how she feels like that's interesting. Like all those parts I thought were like, this writer can write. Like I like the scene I feel invested in these children. I'm enjoying this. But anytime it like forced itself to be like Othello and now we start to like have weird motivations and like psychic seizures and like killing ourselves on the playground. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. So again, it's like you kind of just wish that like, you kind of wonder what was in the contract for these, these books, right? Which were obligatory plot points that they had to hit. Right. Like do they make them? I mean, you know, the Macbeth guy seemed to do whatever that he wanted with that book. Yeah. Well, comparing new boy and Macbeth, the new boy is amazing. Right. Right. And I think it works because it's like a lot short. I mean, it's almost like Macbeth did too much backstory and Othello and like new boy didn't do like. Well, speaking about like doing race in America, which is like another reason why Othello is a better compared like it's not just an Othello retelling which is obviously like you're going to be saying one is better, you know, you're going to be comparing them based on the fact that they're retelling the same play, but also based on the fact that they're both attempting to talk about race in America specifically. And I think the thing, so while it's truer to the play to have Ose be like an immigrant and to have him be othered in this like more, this completely cultural way feels more like a parallel to the more Othello in the play. But if what your book is trying to do is talk about race in America, then it makes so much more sense to do what O did and have the character, the Othello character be like American and home like born and raised and that it is like racial tensions that are present here in America, not from an immigrant that are like play here if that's what you're trying to comment on. Right, right. No, I 100% agree. And I think like because of the, you know, the time that we're in or in the time that she sets it because she sets it in the 70s like black Americans would have been like fully othered in that time period, you wouldn't need to like add that extra layer to it. But I think part of the reason why Desdemona falls in love with Othello, I mean, a lot of the reason is because of his like stories and where he's from and it seems so like. So dangerous and exciting. But I feel like you could do that with an American black person because like how often is that part of like an issue in like those the way that we tell cultural narratives, right? Reminds me of like another, but kind of, was it in my cut? No, whatever that movie was with another Julia Styles movie, like was it Save the Last Dance? Is that it? I haven't seen that. Well, you should watch it. Well, there's a point in it. Oh, which like, again, like highlights that in a way that like this is how you do it in a retelling where you're doing Rains in America where like they're like cuddling or whatever and he takes a shirt off, you know, so they can like be close. And he's got this like kind of massive scar on his back. It looks like pretty intense. Like, and she's like, how did you get that? And he's like, I was a C-section baby. We couldn't afford a doctor. And like she like in my neighbor had to like cut me out and she cut too far. And D is like, or whatever, a desi. She's like, oh my God, really? He's like, no, I fell off my skateboard. What? Doing it like play into this like, this like white woman fast. Yeah, like that scene like highlights in a way that it's not like really uncomfortable but it highlights the fact that like, there's probably some part of us that the desi is kind of like, oh, like he's this like black guy from the other side of the tracks. And like he's like from the hood and that's like kind of dangerous. And the fact that like she asked like, how'd you get this scar? Because she doesn't, again, the way she asks it isn't really casual. Like if I saw you had like over like having brunch with you and like I saw you had like a scar on your hand, I would be like, oh my God, how'd you get that? I wouldn't be like, how did you get that? Like, is there a story? And she'd be like, oh, this horrible tragic story but like, no, I'm falling off my skateboard. But like white woman, like feed me your trauma to like, you know, kind of have this like weird experience with that and you do see that a lot in Desdemona which is why like sometimes scholars don't really like her which is like, I don't know. I feel like with Shakespeare characters that's what's so amazing about them is that they are not, they are never perfect and they're never like, well, you know, this is a perfect example of how to be feminist or this is perfect example of anti-racism. They're all messy, complicated humans. And that's when they put the test of time because there's so much in the text to unpack and interpret so you could play it different ways because they're all just messy people doing messy things. It's like Amelia, she's one of my favorite like female characters, it's like in all of Shakespeare and she is not perfect by any means. Like she's horrible to Bianca. She's the one that like takes the handkerchief but like- Can we just talk about that the amount of times in Othello? Because I've seen this place so many times in the amount of times when there's a scene where they're talking about the handkerchief and Amelia is standing right there and I'm like, girl, now would be the time. Say something, say something that you've got the handkerchief. You wanna say it? You wanna say it? That's what makes the death so shocking is that like she knows that she's doing something bad but she does not know it's going to lead to death. Like I think that's kind of, even Iago is like surprised. Although again, like there's like Othello decides to kill Desdemona and he vocalizes that but he's planning to do it via poison. So like, Iago, God, what do you want it? And then Iago's the one that's like, no, strangle her in your bed. And I'm like, what the fuck Iago? Like, you wanna go what you wanted? What is your problem? Yeah, and it's very, it's intimate, right? And like, and also because like poison is considered like a woman's way of dealing with murder. Like you need to be a man and get your hands dirty. That's what I think of it, like if I was Iago and I wanna make sure that like he doesn't like change his mind and goes through with this, I would be like, yeah, do poison because like once you've like put the poison in something it's like way harder to go back and take it back as opposed to like strangling someone while doing it. You might be like, no, no, no, no, no, I can't do this. I'd be afraid that Othello would be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, I can't do this. So if I was Iago, I'd be like, yes, poison seems like a sure bet. Like, why are you like doing, telling him to show her? Like under, like undermine his like manhood because it really was like a thing back then that like men didn't were supposed to kill by poison, which is why like the ending of Romeo and Juliet is actually supposed to be really interesting because in Romeo and Juliet it's he who takes the poison and she stabs herself, which is considered a very manly death. And so that's like one of the things about that's interesting about Romeo and Juliet is it's like Juliet kind of has like the balls the whole time, if you will. So the fact that she's the one that stabs herself while Romeo drinks the poison is supposed to be kind of a big deal, but. Romeo's too manby-pamby to kill himself properly. But my favorite character death of all time is Cleopatra and the snakes. So if you have not read Anthony and Cleopatra, please do that. Oh yeah, Lauren Spinsperna was a good, he was Othello, right? And the kind of partner one. Yeah, he was good. Well, so yeah, because I've seen Othello so many times when we were talking about different interpretations of these characters and even in retellings, that's another thing that like, it's not just productions of Othello, it's also in how you retell it, also illustrates like how you've perceived this character and that's how you're now gonna do them. So there's like so many interpretations of Othello, both in actual productions of Othello and in retellings of Othello. And the way Yago's portrayed, there's just like so much meat in the text, which is again, why Othello is my favorite because the way to interpret Yago, there's just, every time I've seen Othello, it's been totally different. Like there's been some similar Desdemona's, I've seen there's kind of like three flavors of Desdemona and they kind of repeat themselves. But like Yago, the infinite variety of Yago, every time I see it, is kind of insane. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Because it feels like, you know, Desdemona and Othello are like these things that they set up to fall, whereas like Yago's place in that can change, I think, and like the way that he can do emotions and all that. Yeah, there seems to be like with Desdemona, there really is that dichotomy of making her like super innocent, super flirty, or like somebody very feisty. And you know, you kind of get variations on that, but not much more. Yeah, and I mean, again, like the, while it's image Shakespeare and there's still quite a bit to Desdemona to kind of unpack, she actually doesn't have that many lines and not that much to say. So like you're limited in what you can do with her. I think that was interesting about the RSC, the production that we watched this week is that she kind of like her youthfulness is very stressed because I think that's something else that I didn't really even remember until I saw this production was that Othello is also like a lot older than her. That was also like the piece of it that kind of that, you know, that the dad was mad about too, was that she was like so young and Othello was like not, not, not, was not young, but like, like she in this production is kind of like flits around. She's kind of very much like, like I was this young ingenue, but now I'm like the bell of the ball because I was almost like Catherine, Henry's wife, but not the first Catherine. Catherine Howard was she the like super young one that was his second to last wife. And like she was, he was like kind of old already gone through. He'd already killed a bunch of wives and like, she's just like flirting with everybody. And she was like, try the lime, the queen, no. And he's like instantly killed her. You can have no joy, except when you look at me and buy like, and buy like then too, like not only was he old, but he was like covered in gout and ulcers. Like, I mean, it's like, he was just like 18 years old and like queen. So like everyone like is interested in her and flirting and like, she just like flirts with everybody. And you're like, oh no, oh no. Currently love thing kind of changed the way that you flirted with people. I mean too, so, but he just like kind of hack it. He was old. But I mean, so like that too, I think both credit to Shakespeare and how he wrote the character and then in the different ways the characters have portrayed Othello is also a tricky thing to do because as the audience, you can't condone what Othello's doing, but he is not the villain and you don't come away feeling like he's the villain. You don't come away feeling like he's the good guy. I'm like to have the black man in like a somewhat, with a somewhat racist audience be the hero of your story who strangles his wife in bed. And you come away from that feeling sorry for him. And that is like a really neat trick Shakespeare was on. Yeah, for sure. And I think that that again, changes with, you know, different cultural moments like in the, you know, 19th, 18th century. They did see Othello as like a set, like the villain, like this idea that like he's just showing his true colors, which is not how Shakespeare wrote him. And the text doesn't only support that. The text doesn't really support that, but that's, you know, what a racist audience does. But that's what I think, that's what I love about theater and life theater and plays is that like they take on, they're different for every audience. They're different for every generation because we're coming to the play with a different context, right? And it's, we can't always get back to the, what the original audience would have felt. But it is interesting how like, even in just like the glimpses that we see of what they were doing, like it just, it changes, it shifts depending on what you're doing on stage and like what cultural context you're bringing into it. You know? Well, like while we could never experience it as the audience of the original time would have experienced it, knowing how that audience would be likely to experience it informs what you know about how Shakespeare was thinking when he was writing this. And like, this is how this audience will react to X, Y, and Z. So that's why I'm writing four and that's how I have to write it. So like it's informative, not that you'll now experience like they did, but like the colors, the choices that Shakespeare might have made and how he wrote these characters. And I think it's still bold choice to make out the love of the hero. Yes, well, a hundred percent. And I think it's, you know, different than like what he did with Aaron and Titus Andronicus because that was very like Black Hat villain. So, and that was one of his first plays. And he's not the kinder, I think, to Othello. Well, I think so then to Shylock. Oh, yeah. Shylock is like, for sure. And that's because like they, like England at the time would have been more anti-Semitic than they would have been racist. Like, so Shylock does get like, I mean, he has like one of the worst endings. Yeah. Yeah. Cassie, I feel like everyone is just a pawn, Tiano. He's that kind of that, what we nowadays kind of think of as like a sociopath who's just like, people are just tools and he doesn't really care who dies as long as he gets his way. But I think like Casio was like young and handsome too. And he's like, he's still like well liked by people. So, yeah, I mean, I feel like he, he just, Casio is another example to Iago why Othello is incompetent because Othello has in charge and Othello trusts Casio a lot. He's like, he's just some like handsome dumb guy. And Othello should be in charge. Look who he's like trusting with stuff. It's this guy. Like, ugh. One point. I think like Iago does try to take out Casio. Again, it's like anybody. Like he's egging Rodrigo on to take out Casio. And he's like, kill that guy. And you're like, oh my God. And I think it's because he wants everybody, anybody who's above him slightly to get taken down because he's not in the position that he wanted. Cause it's like, he's almost like, he's like, you know, him and Amelia are like servants, not servants, but like that's kind of how they feel. Like they have to serve the family all the time. And he's very bitter about that position. Whereas like Casio and Othello both have positions of power that he doesn't think either one of them have deserved. Like he, so he's just like a bitter man. I just want everybody to suffer basically. As again, we kind of talked about and it came up in the chat where someone like mentioned the recurring honest Iago. And yeah, it's put in there for dramatic irony, but I feel like in particular the one production that it's my favorite where they really made this in Iago where it didn't feel like dramatic irony and they're calling him honest or it felt authentic where it felt like this character, the way that Iago is being played is just so warm and so kind and so seemingly having your best interests at heart that it feels natural that you would go out of your way to comment upon his honesty. Where it doesn't feel like, Shakespeare's just kind of winking at the audience and be like, oh, honest Iago. And I feel like too many productions play exactly like that where they're like, honest Iago where everyone's like, we know he's not as opposed to being like, yeah, I absolutely get why you're calling him honest Iago because I didn't see the parts of Iago that I have seen as the audience member where he addresses us specifically and like turns to us and is like, my plan is to kill everybody. I would be like, yeah, he seems great. He seems really swell. And I think that's so much better because like it makes the other characters seem really stupid. If like Iago is played very sinisterly where like you can constantly pick up on the fact that he's scheming and like double-neenings. And you're like, is everyone really that thick? Like is Amelia that thick that she doesn't see her husband as up to something? Is Othello really trust this guy over it as an Amona? Versus when he's played in a way where like honest Iago is an absolutely deserved like nickname. And then you're like, yeah, like he's just good at manipulating people. I can see why they fell for it. And that's why like Iago and like this last production I thought what they did with in the RSC, they did a lot of interesting things but you don't really get why everybody likes him and trusts him when he's among other people. Like his best part for when he was like by himself talking to the audience and you got to see his anger and his jealousy but it was like barely contained in the public setting. So you didn't really get why Othello trusted him so much. And he was like him and his and Amelia had like no chemistry the whole time. Like he bear, and I think, I mean, to some degree that sort of works with their relationship but again, like why would Amelia do that? Amelia basically betrays Desdemona for him. So you have to give the audience a reason why Amelia who seems pretty kind of ballsy in her own woman and speaks her mind why she would, she who comes out and says that like, ah, men are the worst why she would betray Desdemona to give the tanker chief to her husband. Like you have to give us a reason. And if Iago is played very like only sinister only scheming mistreats his wife. You're like, this doesn't check out. Why would Amelia do that? She seems like a less whole character for that reason versus when Iago is played where he can absolutely like turn on the warmth. And you're like, yeah, well Amelia has also fallen for her husband's false charms and thinks that he probably has good intentions because he just seems so great. Or like she, she sees both sides of it, right? Like that she, that like, I think you would talked about how like, if she had experienced warmth like she would, but then also experienced his wrath to do things like as an abused wife to try and get back to those good moments. So like, it would make sense to play like everybody else only sees the warm side and then Amelia sees both and she's trying to constantly appeal to his like and like, you know, like any, like an, like it's all about how he's abusing her emotionally. And so that would make more sense. Instead of like in this production, they're like, you're mean to her all the time. Mean to her. Yeah. And like there was just no chemistry between them. Which is again, why all those scenes where she's standing there and she knows about the handkerchief, she says nothing. If you don't have a scene where she has experienced warmth from Iago where you'd be like, well, I like, I can't condone this behavior. Like it's terrible that she's betraying her friend this way but I understand what is going on and why she's doing it. Because like, she is desperate for her husband's affection which she has received at times and she wants it again and she wants more. Like you'd get it even though you're uncomfortable with it. Whereas most productions are like, I don't get why you're being like this. Why? Kind of what happens in new boy. Like she knows like Iago, the Iago character is known as like the school bully and everybody's afraid of him. So you don't get why like he gets away with things the way that he does. And then it makes this offhand comment about how the teachers are afraid of him. But like, again, he's like a 10 year old boy. So I don't know like why that, I don't know. But like- That was a breaker. Yeah, I mean, I'm really a character in that. Like she knows from the beginning that like he's a bully and she doesn't really want anything to do with him. So again, like doing those kinds of things doesn't seem like her motive is nonsense either. Like- Yeah. Like in a fellow, I mean, again, there is like a racial component for the most part. It's all about how like men are jealous, awful beings. And that's why Desdemona should be wary of a fellow. Whereas like in new boy, it was, oh well, he's black, you can't trust him. So it like kind of diminishes her character in a lot of ways. Well, it entirely changes kind of what the narrative is trying to make a question, I guess. Yeah. And like, I guess new boy does try and get into gender stuff because it's like, you know, the 10 year olds are called like whores by the guys and it's like sort of a big deal. Like- Which was all for like, I really don't see 10 year olds saying whore. Yeah. Or even like knowing like what, like probably be better. But like the Bianca character, she's seen as like kind of like a slutty 10 year old in the sense that like she's gotten boobs and she wears low cut shirts. And like, but even then like people don't really care. Like nobody like in the school ostracizes her in the way that she's clearly ostracized in the play. And like she's still dating the popular boy. Like there's no like real, so like she sort of bring up the gender piece of it, but none of it has any real stakes to it. There's like like their 10, so. Which again, we're like, I think honestly, like I really liked Oh, I never watched it before and I'm so glad you like suggested it. I was like, oh yeah, I forgot that I existed and I never thought. And it is just so much better as like, this is how you do a modern retelling of something like Otello, where you make the themes fit the modern setting and you make it make sense in a way that doesn't feel contrived. And the Josh Hartnett Yago character, he does that where he comes off quite warm and sympathetic and like he has your best interest at heart when he's trying to get what he wants. And like the way he treats his girlfriend who then, you know, steals the scarf for him. Like you can sense tension in that relationship, but also like when he gets what he wants, he's very like very warm and very physically affectionate when he gets what he wants. And you could see why she'd be like, okay. And like why she would make excuses to herself about why this is okay. So yeah, if you want to see a retelling of Otello done properly, I've always wanted that new boy. Well, and Josh Hartnett has that very like cute boy next door look too. Like he's kind of- But he also like pulls off sinister. Like when he's like by himself, like he looks, oh my God, he looks scary. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting cause like in the nineties he was sort of that like boy next door. So it's kind of cool that they did that and then really managed to do that well. Maybe like nowadays casting a, who's the guy from high school musical? Zac Efron. Zac Efron. If he was like Iago. And actually, I think Zac Efron, actually he's a pretty good actor. I totally could see Zac Efron, me and good Iago, but it'd be like the same. Yeah. Now we can cast a new one, right? We just can't have it be about basketball because Zac Efron is too short. How old is he now? Can he play? I guess if you made them all like more, I don't even know- Like he's just this boyish looking. He's like in his thirties for sure. He has to be, right? I guess you could get like the new, the high school musical, the series, you can get that cast. They can be the new. Of course, because like I just want my favorites to be in everything. Like I've like told my mom for years that I want Idris Elba to be off illo, Tom Hardy to be a Iago, and like Desdemona's TPD. You'll go for it one cast. Yeah, I don't even know. I don't like, yeah, I've been watching a lot of TV lately. So like who is popular now? Although I, yeah, I know like some of the drama of, but yeah, you could do like Olivia Rodrigo Desdemona. And yeah, I mean, I think it's a more natural choice to choose high school. But again, like there are ways you could do this in elementary school because of the way that kids have high emotions. You just have to, it has to be less a literal retelling of Othello and more of like the type of thing that happens. Like that it's not death, but it is a betrayal. That it's not like a marriage and it's not infidelity, but it is like, you know, lying and it is that kind of, so like you can have it mirror events about Othello, but in a way that makes sense for children and where the ending is not death. Or if it is, again, like I thought he might accidentally kill Desby. Desby, I think he kills her feet. Yeah, if she like fell because he shoved her, then like he has killed her and it is his fault and he has to live with that, but it's not like strangling her. Yeah. Why are you down with that? Actually in the RSC production, I kept thinking that actress really reminded me of Carrie Mulligan. I was like, no, it's not. Yeah. The one in the RSC production, she's like a cute young kind of frivolous Desdemona for sure. I just didn't sense any chemistry between her on Othello, which again, in Othello is kind of critical. Yeah. I mean, I think they tried to make up for it because she was always touching him, but I don't like physical touch because it doesn't really make up for her chemistry. And that was like the one thing that New Boy did really good. I thought that there was like some nice chemistry in B&D and you had very small moments that seemed very weighted between them. Which is why again, like book like, I think the writer has talent because all the parts that were just kind of like her own thing that she was just writing, like these kids just chatting and interacting and this at no point is trying to be Othello. That's for other parts. Like the parts that were like just her own, I thought were quite good. And I felt again interested and invested and they felt like fully fleshed out characters. It's when she started shoving them into their Othello places that I was like. Bridgerton can like almost be a thing. I was just reading, I feel like it's like, almost do that, right? I mean, I would not say no to Reggaeton Page being Othello. That would be pretty good. And he would have all the passion and fire and violence that we're looking for. Yeah. Yeah. He would be like a very believable one. And then like there was a plenty of There's a portion that Reggaeton Page was Othello. It would almost be interesting too to make one of those women Iago. Like I've never seen that. Like, I don't know if you like did the kind of gender flip because like all of those women in Bridgerton, like you could take any one of those. And then one of those was like basically Iago. Like. So then would Amelia be like, would it be also a woman or would it be a man? Maybe. You could do it either way. I mean, you could have like, yeah, like a male servant. It could be a classmate instead. Like in said Amelia and Iago being husband and wife, it could be like a woman and her servant, you know? And then like that's an interesting power dynamic, right? Like it would make more sense for like a woman to boss around a male servant and not like, you know, that would be fun. Cause it's like all those women in Bridgerton would scare me like some of them. Like I won't finish the show, but it can be mean. Yeah. I'm like trying. I mean, and then like a jealousy kind of makes sense. Cause like, you know, cause everybody liked that, you know, that, that guy, what's his name? I don't even remember what his name is in the, in the show. Wait, there's a lot of guys. The guy who plays a fellow. Like the guy. Right on page? Yes, him. Yeah. Simon. It's like the Iago character was trying to like, you know, get him. I don't know. In my head, these work very, very well. I mean, like, there's a lot there. Like, I mean, I don't know exactly who would be who and what everything, but like I see potential. You need your own theater to like do this with. Like, hey, I have this. Like, why are we not always consulted on every Shakespeare production and every retelling? All the time. Like I want to be in like the Hogarth writing room and be like, this is why. And I kind of wondered like, when did they stop publishing them? Because I wonder if they didn't maybe like do well enough. So that's why I think the last one, which is a retelling of Lear was in like 2018, I think. Is there about or it was published. So it was probably written in 2017. Yeah, we should like write some ability. If you're going to restart this project, this is what you need to do. You need us. You need us. We'll just write them all for you. And they'll be exactly like we want. But yeah, yeah. But also like, as we were telling, like all these like retellings that were done is in film. We're all basically in the 90s. And I'm like, what happened to that? Let's do that again. Like, one of the things I hate about you and oh, and this isn't Shakespeare, but Clueless is a retelling of Emma. Like this trend of like taking classic literature and retelling it in like high school settings. I'm like, more, please. Why don't they do that anymore? Back in the good old days. Right. Now they're just like a million Marvel movies. I love Marvel. But like it always seems like there's never like variety. Oh, I watched the trailer for Oh, and it is the most 90s trailer. Like this is the kind of trailer that honest trailers, the kind of format of honest trailers isn't actually making fun of how trailers are nowadays. It's that old like voiceover tell you in dramatic voice. Like he was the boy from the wrong side of the tracks. And you're like, and then you have that kind of like synthesized music in the background that's kind of like something. And you're like, oh no. Slow motion basketball. But everyone should also watch Stage Beauty. What year was that one? Was that 90 or early 2000? No, that was definitely 2000. I was in, I think I just started high school when I came out. Stage Beauty is really great if you want to get a sense of like what the theater like was like. Well, also like I, when I saw it, I mean, I liked it when I first saw it. But since then my knowledge of like Shakespeare itself, of historical times, of gender roles, of like the play of Othello itself, it's just like so much more knowledge I have to be able to realize just, I always thought this movie was good. And I just didn't even have the knowledge to be able to understand how good it is. There's, because it does so many things. Not dressed like Othello because obviously like Othello is an interesting theme in it. But you know, the way that just gender and society is discussed and examined is so good, so good. Yeah. For anybody who doesn't know, Stage Beauty is basically about in like the late 1600s when the theaters were reopened, Charles II basically allowed actresses into the theater and basically, and what that did to change how the theater- It was all the men who had been playing women now were out of a job. Yeah. And like the way that like, you know, being a man who played a woman was like a legitimate job that people did before then. And how that like influenced like performances and the way things are written. Like if you were gonna think about like how Desdemona was written for a man playing a woman, like it takes on, it would have been a different experience. But also, I mean, like when I first learned like, I mean, I was a kid when I learned that, but like when I first learned that back in the day men played women on stage exclusively and it made sense to me why there's so much cross-dressing in Shakespeare plays. And I was like, well, it's like, it's a little more believable when they dress like a boy. So I'm just gonna let them dress like a boy for like half this play. And there was like a lot of children's troops like in that time too, where like they, like there are certain plays that were written for boys' troops. So it has a lot of like female characters that's usually for it, which is also really interesting. Like just all children boys. And I like was like a, not like a fully legitimate because being in the theater wasn't like fully legitimate. But it also made like stage beauty is also a lot of commentary on just like, I don't know. We think of theater as just like a normal thing. Everyone is familiar with the existence of theater and what that is. But like when anytime I've seen, I feel like it comes up more like sci-fi or something where like it's some other like species or culture and they've never heard of theater and you try to explain what theater is where like they're pretending on stage to play like to this story, but we know it's not real and we can see it in person. And all of us know this isn't real where we agree to pretend like it's real collectively like in the theater and on the stage. And like it's just like such a weird thing that we do like to try to explain it and about how like who you are on stage, how that does inform who you are as a person or vice versa. And I feel like stage beauty like does kind of a lot to comment on about like for an actor, like how much their identity is tied to who they play even though we agree that who you play is a fiction and that this is who you are pretending. But it nevertheless does define you, the person playing that role in a way that goes beyond the stage and like how, I don't know, it's just such a good movie. I used to address this last comment. I wonder if that's why there's so much cross dressing in British humor. I just want to address this really fast too because like in Shakespeare's time, it wasn't humorous. Again, I think that's something to remember was that like if someone was watching Desdemona, it wouldn't be funny like that. They would have considered her a woman that, you know, this is, this isn't like, yeah. It's a standard that it's played by a man. You wouldn't think about it. Yeah, they wouldn't really think about it. They would just like accept that this was, and that's what's so interesting about like gender in the time period is that like, like it would have been more taboo to do that in public, but there was something about it being acceptable on the stage. It was lewd for a woman to be on stage. Yeah. That's a shocking thing. And you know, the Puritans and Protestants who were always mad about everything forever, like they were always mad about it. Talk about a Yago. Like the Puritans just want everyone to be as bitter as they are. Exactly. And so it's like, and they hated the theater in general because it was like too joyous. I mean, like the Protestants hated Christmas because they hate joy. So it's like, so it's not, it wasn't really plain. And then the theater puts on the Christmas carol every year to like spite them. And so if you're talking about like 80s, 90s, British humor and cross-wessing, that's just like homophobia. Like when, like in British, a lot of British humor, especially like in the 80s and 90s when they play cross-wessing for humor, it's just because they're homophobic in anything. Like even in like the IT crowd, which I absolutely love, I think it's a fun show. They have like moments where you're like, ooh, that is. Didn't age well. That doesn't, there is something to lose it. So I think it's too different kind of. But it's, I mean, I wonder if like just, I mean, I agree that it is like kind of stemming from homophobia, but the like the idea to do that so regularly because it's so much in the stage that like the, that it might have like inspired it in some way. And that nevertheless, like the reason for it being funny is homophobia, but the like inspiration to do it is like what we see it in stage all the time. It's like a serious thing on stage and we're making fun of it and like, and we're homophobic. I mean, cause it's like, you see it, you see cross-wessing as a humor, a humor device when women enter the stage. So if you ever read like a theater from the 1700s, like a century after Shakespeare, that's when cross-wessing becomes a humorous device because women are actually on stage. So if a man does it, it becomes, it's almost like having the women there to compare it to, then it becomes, you know. When it's all just dudes, then you're like nothing to, there's nothing in front of you to juxtapose like why this doesn't look real. It looks, she looks girlier than that guy over there. So she's a she. But when you have a real she on the stage who's like putting the lie to like this like young boy who's playing old girl, then you're like, oh, this is less believable now. This is awkward. But even then it's like though, you know, they talked about how like the men playing women on stage during Shakespeare's times were beautiful. And like that's what stage beauty talks about too, about how like- That's why he was so famous cause he was like one of the most beautiful women on stage. Right. And there were like certain affectations. So it's not like, and it was like the performance of being a woman. So like cross-wessing, if they did it on stage to be humorous, they wouldn't be trying to pretend to be a woman. They would be trying to be playing woman well. They would be trying to play it bad on purpose to like make it humorous. I don't know. The 1700s, some of that stuff, there's also just like a lot more like bed tricks and like rape jokes too. Like they also use like 1700s weren't as fun as- But then it was interesting like for like a modern audience who is both familiar with the tradition of men playing women on stage and has also been steeped in a culture that makes fun of this in like cross-dressing humor. Then in films like Shakespeare and Love, where it is both completely serious that a man is playing a woman and we understand that this is serious, but there's also played for laughs when like the guy who's like, I was a pirate king and now I'm a nurse because he's playing like the female nurse character and like that's played for laughs. So like that's a weird, like it's for a modern audience for who was like, I both know that this is totally serious and also that this is a joke right now. Right. And then that's not really how it would have been done. Like if you were an actor, like if you played a woman on stage, that was kind of like what you did. Like you wouldn't really go from being like a manly man to it. Which is the only stage where he plays with a lot because they're like, well, you're an actor. Like, so you can't play girls anymore, play a man. And he's like, no, I can't. Because it's like in theater companies, like you had troops like, and playwrights were writing for their troops. So Shakespeare was writing for a troop. So he would create characters based on who he knew would be performing in the play. Like there were famous actors back then, just like there were now. And so- From how SNL writes sketches for the cast that they have. Right. So it's not like men and women would really, it's not like men would be changing gender roles a lot because Shakespeare would be like, oh, there's like this person who plays, who usually plays women in this. And then he would write for those characters. He wrote like Hamlet for a famous actor at the time. His name is alluding me right now. But like he played, you know, so it's like, I think we have to keep that in mind too, that he was writing for specific troops and characters were created for specific people. Like- Which again, what Shakespeare and Love is highlighting when they like, he's written it for this troop. And originally he's like writing the story that's like about piracy. And so this part of this troop is originally like, like you say, he, the actor who then plays the nurse, it wouldn't have been like that where he would have been a pirate king and then a nurse. But it is still like the pointing to the fact that he's has this set number of people, these specific people, and you're writing the different roles for them. And now you're running a different play. So now they're getting different roles and they're being reshuffled. And they're like, oh, this new play, I get to play this different character and I'm not happy about that. Yeah, and it's funny. So like that's why I haven't ever seen Shakespeare and Love because I know that the inaccuracies would just bother me. So I haven't actually seen it. Well, it's like, actually what I was gonna point out was like you talking about how like writing a character for a specific actor, like he's, it's a very small role but he actually does a really great job. Ben Affleck is in it as like a famous actor. And he shows up because he's been away for a while and he's like, what is the play and what is my part? And like he's written supposedly like the lead for him but he gives him a Mercutio in Romeo and Juliet. So like he's like, I die? Excuse me? And he's like, oh, but you have such a death. It's like so good. And he's like, mm, okay, fine. Yeah. I think it's like, it's one of those movies that I would have to go in with like, this is just fun. And it's like, it's like, like you watch the night's tale, you know, a night's tale is fun and silly. So I feel like that's what you have to go into when you're watching like Shakespeare and Love. Is that like, it's just fun and, fun and silly. And Judy Dench is Queen Elizabeth. What's not to love about that? Exactly. Yeah. Isn't love Judy Dench, but so I mean, I think, I do think the theater back then was really, was really interesting though. And like, you know, they had like celebrities like we do now. It's, it's just kind of fun to, fun to think about to me, but. Yeah, I would say agree that I think it's fun. And I wish I remembered everybody's names, but I don't. And what I do like about stage beauty though too, is that they also show the women, so even though women weren't allowed on stage, they still worked at the theater. Like they were seamstresses, makeup, prop people. I mean, women were still really involved in the theater. It's just going to be in the public eye. Cause I think someone mentioned it about how like, they were seen as prostitutes. And like, yeah, I mean, that's kind of, again, like Puritans and Protestants were like, if women, I mean, women could do anything. But I feel like women in like, in private could perform in like little home theaters and they did. And they did. Closet dramas, yeah. And I think it was Charles I's wife. She loved the theater. And part of the reason why like, the English got mad at Charles I was because he was kind of like, you know, into debauchery. And like, they would have these huge parties and like his wife would like perform in the palace and the Puritans and the Protestants were like, hey, wait a minute, you can't have too much fun. That's a chop off his head. Very, very simple version of what happened. That's history for you. You don't have to read about it. Yeah, yeah. It's three in a nutshell. His dad, James the first was like, he was gay. Like he only had like male lovers. So like they, like the Protestants or he hated James. So when like Charles I was also kind of like, sleeping around, it was like, okay, this is enough debauchery and, you know, the house of England. So I just like, I mean, and like, again, in stage beauty when they kind of talk about, again, like the craft of acting and what the mindset of the actor is and why you're playing what you're playing and who's playing what they're playing. And I just like love that line when like now, okay, so women are going to be like the concept of like women playing women and Billy Cardiff's character is like a woman playing a woman. What's the trick in that? Yeah. It's like, I have to put a lot of work into like, and I have put my whole life, my life's work has been to perfect the like, being a woman on stage and you're like, like that, that takes the craft. And you're like, you just being a woman, like, there's no acting in that. Yeah. And I think that like, you know, in Jake's first time, like seeing things on the theater was much more, like, you know, you had character, like, and Shakespeare, they were making it more complex and more realistic because like before then, you just had like stock characters and like the stock characters had like different positions. So you had like the black hat villain and you had like the hero and like. That was a funny dog. Yeah. And so like the Shakespeare's time was really like evolving with theater, but you still had a little bit of that where it's like people would do specific poses to represent different things happening on stage. You know, it wouldn't be like the realist kind of theater that we would be used to as like a modern audience when people would still have like feelings about it. But that's what's interesting in stage beauty is like the difference of Desdemona dying in like Shakespeare's time versus like, you know, later when the theater was becoming more realistic what that death would have looked like and how it moves the audience in like a completely different way. So it was very much like a representation of actions and a representation of like symbolic things or like, I think, isn't Kabuki theater kind of like that? Or like... Yeah. Like Italian theater was like that too. It was very much like, here's a clown, here's. If you ever want to read like bonkers stuff like the Renaissance Italian drama is just quite a weird. Italian. It is so weird. Like, you wonder like how they got away with it. So people wanted it. Yeah, I don't. And they had women on stage, I think, before the English did. But... Well, yeah, that's another line in stage beauty and they're like, well, they've had women on stage in France for a while. So every time we were about to do something like we shouldn't do, we always say the French did it first. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, like most of the Shakespeare stuff was like, his like the story is already existed. Like Romeo and Juliet, all of those stories already existed to some degree elsewhere. It's just like, like the language is just very, it's just very different. To the characters. Yeah, the nuances. I mean, this has come in, like we're sounding very anguophile. Oh, well Shakespeare did it so much better than the Italian. Not necessarily better, but like that's like, I think when we talk about also every production of Othello, that's why it's not just, well, you've seen Othello once, you've seen it. Like no, because every single interpretation is different, same way. Shakespeare telling of the story is going to be different from how like every version of Cinderella is a little bit different. And those differences are fascinating and they do different things. Yeah, so Shakespeare did, he, yeah, he changed some things and adds characters and plays with the timelines. But yeah, like, I think like every single one of his plays, besides like the Tempest and some of his comedies. Well, like a lot of them are just stories he read in it from Emily. I mean, the histories are literally just. Just like suppressed timelines. But yeah, like most of it is from Italian stories or French stories that he just, you know, copied the main copy of it. Yeah, that's why a lot of them are set in Italy because it's like all these like stories from, because the Italian Renaissance happened before the English Renaissance by like a hundred years. So like, you know, like Dante, all of that, they all came before the British one. So it's like the English wouldn't have had a Renaissance without the Italian Renaissance, which is why here's my, I'm putting on my nerd hat, but like that's why- The whole rest of the conversation has not been nerdy at all. Well, here's my semantic hat where we're going to get into semantics. So like that's why a lot of people now, like when you talk about studying like the English Renaissance, they actually don't call it that anymore. They call it early modern studies instead of the English Renaissance because it's like the Italians did it first, like they had their Renaissance. And then the English were like, well, I guess we got to do it now. It's like now they call it the early modern study because it's not like technically the Renaissance. One time, so when I was in grad school, there was this woman who was like studying the Italian Renaissance. And she started like yelling at me. She was like, the English, you didn't have a Renaissance. They didn't do anything new. And I was like going, that's okay. Oh, academics, they're fun. And I wasn't even arguing the point. It was just like something that she felt very strongly about and then like wanted to shout to everyone. One thing the English did that no one else can say they did was break with the church over wanting to marry someone else. And inventing an entire religion just to do it. The English are all alone in that one. Yeah, the Italians had like their own version, but it was more because it's like, they wanted money and to like the priests to sleep around. Like the Medici's were, whoo. If anybody wants to know why Jesus, like white Jesus looks the way white Jesus does, you can like look into the Medici history because it's like, it's like, I think the white Jesus who was like kind of famous in the Italian Renaissance is like the image of a lot of Protestants then like use now was actually based on like a Medici son. And it was like a whole pattern grab and all of that kind of stuff. They're like, so it's like painting him like the image of Jesus was supposed to like make their power a little bit stronger. But yeah. That's branding. This was like the long flowing brown hair. White Jesus, yeah. The origin of history is interesting. And Italy wasn't like a, you know, they were kind of like separate countries. That's why I like in English, like in the Shakespeare story, that's like they talk about Verona as a country in and of itself because all of those pieces of Italy were like fractured. There's a lot of Verona going on in a lot of Shakespeare plays. Yeah. I don't know if you've ever heard of this. Oh no, I haven't seen that. Me neither. I think it was like a son, like an illegitimate son. Cause you know, all of the priests and the pokes were like screwing around in those days. Like celibacy was just kind of like a joke. They were all sleeping around. So part of the reason why a lot of like, so it's like Henry the, like Henry VIII like created the church because he wanted to kill his wife and Mary and other, but the people who actually like believed in, you know, the English Lutherans. Yeah, Luther and his cronies. And like the people in like the people in like Protestant England who wanted to break away from the church, it was because like the people in Italy were doing a bunch of stuff that like they didn't agree with. Like they, I mean, there was so much money given to the Pope that was like taken from the poor. And you know, and like everybody was sleeping around. Everybody. I was with everything in history. Everything is always kind of like a response to our backlash for, so like the like extreme kind of like, like bare bones-ness of like early Protestant faiths was a direct response to the obscene ostentation of the Catholic church. So like it was like a direct response in the opposite, like the pendulum swinging completely the other direction being like, we're going to have literally nothing in the church so that it's the opposite of the Catholics. And Lutheran was like, I'm going to make this Catholic light. We're going to take away all the ostentation but keep away some of the tra, like that keeps some of the trappings. So, and then we'll have a war to decide it. But yeah, I mean the Medici people in power, I mean that they're one of the reasons why the English Protestants were like, wait, why do we have to listen to the Pope? He's taking all of our money and sleeping around. I don't want this guy in power. So. It's kind of interesting how like, now that it's completely absent, but like religion doesn't really play much of a role in Shakespeare plays, like other than like Shylock being a Jew, like it's- But that was more like a race of people. I mean. Yeah. I mean, yeah, anti-Semitism is like, someone like the Crusades like killed more Jews than they did Muslims because it's like a lot of times, like, you know, that kind of, yeah. That's a whole other history and that's really awful and sad. But yeah, I mean, the thing is too, is that like, you know, everything was censored in England. So you couldn't really do anything. That's also why everything was set in Italy. Cause you couldn't really criticize England. Like, I mean, there was somebody reading the script before you could produce it. And if it had any of that, so you really couldn't- Well, like the histories are interesting, kind of like time capsule for like, how histories are being written when you know that your audience is like related to these historical figures. So like how Shakespeare would have had to like, write histories for that specific audience. So you're like, don't look for accuracy. Look for the fact that he's playing to his audience. Yeah. And there are the plays, like there was one play that started in Uprising and I can't remember the name of it now, but like that's been, you know, burned from historical records because it was considered too much. So it's like, you couldn't really do a lot with religion other than like- But so speaking of religion, I was debating with my parents about this. I'm curious your knowledge and or thoughts about this about whether or not Othello, the character is overtly a Christian in the play. Well, I kind of, I wonder if he's not because of the way that he talks about like it's kind of mystical, right? Like his mom and like the handkerchief, it's very like a mystical kind of thing. And I think Desdemona's Christianity almost gets questioned because she's with him. However, he does like tell her to pray. That's what I was saying. I was like, he's the one that keeps insisting I will not like kill your unsafe, like un, what does, I don't forget the word, but he's basically saying like, I'm gonna like make sure to kill you when you're in a state of grace, like so that you- Right, so it seems like almost like an imperialized Christianity, which I guess like most Christianity is like imperialized, but like this idea that if he's going to be in any position of power, he has to have like, he couldn't not be a Christian. Yeah, but it's not like the parts where he's talking about like faith are not public. Like it's not like when he's talking in front of his men and about how like, you know, God is with us or whatever. It's only when he's privately with Desdemona, when he's like, are you pure? Are you chased? Do you swear to God? Have you prayed tonight? Have you like asked forgiveness for your sins? I will not kill your unprepared soul. Like it's, he's like very, very like into that. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then, and I think that's supposed to almost like, make him again, like not the huge villain of the story that like- That's why you can't outright hate him because he's, he's a tragic figure. And like he's his own, I mean, as he says, like he basically acknowledges at the end that like he is the villain. And like that's what also kind of redeems him for the audience where like, he doesn't come away from that being well, it's not my fault. Like he made me do it. He's like, he did make me do it, but also I don't deserve to live. Yeah, yeah. And he talks about like dying for honor too. So, and like what he did was like dishonorable because he, you know, so there's also like, he has a kind of like own moral direction as well. One thing that I do talk about in my dissertation with that scene specifically, this idea of only having like a, like a physical death, but not like a death in the afterlife. And this idea that if he can like kill her when she's been like forgiven and her body's in the most like pure state, he can then like preserve a piece of her. Like he can preserve a piece of her at its like, at its best, right? And I think this is something that comes- Wait, there's something too about how I'll kill you now and love you after. Because like, now you can't, you know I'm anymore still dead. Yeah, exactly, I still love you. And then, and that's something that you see in a lot of plays from Shakespeare and other people, this idea that like, they're the only way you can truly control a woman is if she is dead. And then from then on, you can apply your own narrative to whatever, to whatever happened. So it's like, he tells us like, I will, you know, like he tells us kind of narrative, like I will tell a different story about you once you're dead and once I have full control over you. And he talks about how like the reason why he doesn't want to stab her is because he doesn't want to like destroy a piece of her body. He wants her- Well, I mean like- Yeah, she'll look pure and pristine when she's just dead and lying there and she'll be like, oh, this is how I like you. Just like, just perfect. Like you're absolutely- Yes, and there's like a lot of plays that do that. One fun play. I think I talked about the cannibal play before, but let's talk like in our last chat. But let's talk about the necrophilia play. So another one of Thomas Middelson, who did the cannibal play, he did a play called The Lady's Tragedy. And basically that's what happens. Like this woman, this like tyrant king is obsessed with this woman. So he like takes over in order to get her to marry him, but she doesn't want to be raped. So instead she kills herself. And he ends up like stealing her body and then like basically playing with it, the whole play. He like crowns it, he like paints it. He has to like, part of the play is that he has to continually like paint her because like her body is like- Decaying. Decaying and stuff like that. But all of his language- What lucky actor gets to play that role of the decaying body? When I was running my dissertation, I was like scouring to see if it was like an actor to me. Like I was desperate to find out. But I'm pretty sure it's an actor because at the end, like her soul comes down, like her spirit comes down to like talk about like how the tyrant is like basically like raping her dead body. And there's like all of this other stuff that's happening. But yeah, it is a, but like all of his language is about how like she- People think classics are prudish and boring. I would just say the same thing. But like, you know, all of his language is about how now- Yeah, I second this. Yeah. Now that she is dead, she becomes like the perfect lover to him because she can't say no. She can't speak. She can't do anything, but he can preserve her in this state. And it's like this whole- So to me, I, so I actually compared like a fellow and ladies tragedy, this idea of like, you know, he takes this idea of I will kill thee and love thee after. And then Thomas Middleton like literalizes that entire idea that if you get to kill her, then in a keeper this way, then you get to keep her in this like pure form. Anyways, it's really interesting. Yeah, that's another thing that like to speak, speaking of like wanting control or ownership, like earlier on before, before death comes into it at all, when Althello was talking about how like, it's so bizarre that we say that, like these creatures that we say that we own, but really like we don't own them. And that like I would rather not own them at all than to like own like a corner of the thing that I love. And then then she can go off and do what she wants. And the way that he like, the way he's expressing that, like it's so much to do with control and not trust. Like it's not that like, because trust is a piece of it, but he's just like, I get to call her mine, but I actually, she's not mine like in practice. And that's like driving him crazy. Right. And I think that's all part of like the elusiveness of truth in that play. Like how can you ever really know somebody? Like what is the truth of a person? And if you can't get to the truth of them, can you ever really trust another person? What else like there's like only somebody, is that control or is it trust or is it both? Is it neither? Like, you know, like modern audiences would tend to say that it's because like you trust them and they trust you. And that's why you kind of like belong to each other. But Othello's interpreting this very much as like control. Yeah. And like, and knowing. I know it makes sense also that he just kind of applies that mindset to his whole life all the time. Like he kind of only knows how to think in terms of like, these men that I control and dictate to. And that like it makes sense even if it's not good that he kind of approaches marriage in a similar way. Like he doesn't, she's not a soldier, but he kind of only knows how to operate in terms of like, I'm in charge and I'm in control and you do what I say. And you don't, then you're disloyal and I kill you. Like these are like the metrics for a soldier. Yeah. And you know, like killing and unfaithful. I mean, it wasn't, there wasn't like happening all of the time back then, but you know, it was like the worst offense a woman could make, right? It was like cuckolding her husband because. Well, then that, I mean, I get like, that's why I love Shankler because like the fact that Othello doesn't just get mad that he thinks that he's being cuckolded, he also like tells Yonga that like, he would have been honestly delighted to live in ignorance, like just be so great to just be cuckolded and not know about it. Cause like I was super happy when I had no idea wasn't suspecting this at all. Like it's so much worse to like have this suspicion. Like I'd rather just not know. Right. And Yago like will then play on that. And he like describes like, you know, imagine Casio on top of her. Like he uses that like language to get Othello, not just to be like suspicious, but like to imagine what's happening. To visualize it. To visualize it. And like that's part of like the knowing and the seeing and Othello, like that sometimes we will take something that's in our own head and try and make that the proof. And so keep going. And then again, the fact that Othello then says that like now it doesn't matter if like, even if I get proof that she's absolutely been loyal and even if it's like proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that like there was nothing to this ever and that it was, she was always faithful that now that I've once doubted, I can never like, it'll never be untainted again. Like I will always still have the like scar of that doubt and that I will never ever be able to have the same kind of trust and faith and whole pure perfect love that I once did. It doesn't matter what I find out. It doesn't matter if it wasn't true. Now that the planted doubt has, the seed of doubt has been planted. That's it. Like it'll always be there. And it's almost like what always ruins like, that's the tragedies of Shakespeare's love tragedies. It's like if only these two people can exist in a world with like by themselves, they could live and like have this pure love, but because they live in society, it's like constantly ruining it. I mean, that's what we're warned Juliet's about too. Like people would just leave these lovers alone to do what they want. It would be magical and pure or whatever. But Shakespeare's like, well that can't exist though because everybody lives in a context and it's just always like the outside forces are always going to ruin your life. I can even use comedies to some degree hint at that. I mean, yeah, they get their like, most of them get their happy endings, but especially in plays like Merchant of Venice, it shows that like all of these interactions are just, they're always kind of shadowed by it. Well, I mean, and like given in much to do about nothing, it's a very similar situation where Claudio believes that hero has been unfaithful to him and he like, he shames her publicly about it. And like he is told that this has killed her and it takes her death for this like act that never was an act to be purified and wipe this lake clean. Like she has to die in order for it. And that's what did they even say in the play that like she died while her slander lived. And this is a new hero and that she, this new hero was like fresh and pure and virginal and clean because that old hero was, she died defiled is like the actual text. Like she literally had to die even though, I mean, she's, she never did die, but like they had to proclaim that she was dead. He had to believe that she was dead in order to like wipe this lake clean. And that's sort of what happens in the Winters tale, although Winters tale a little bit more bonkers, but the same thing sort of happened. She like is a statue. That part is the weirdest part of that. I'm just like, this, this is so weird. It's kind of stupid. Which we'll talk about next time. Next one's talking about a Winters tale and what is it, the gap of time? Is the hogar you're telling? And I do love the Winters tale, but boy, is it weird, but it's the same kind of thing where she suspected of being unfaithful. So she has to like sacrifice years of her life as a statue, maybe. So that's by Jeanette Winterson. Winterson, do you think that's why she picked the Winters tale? But I'm interested to see what they do with, I'm always interested to see what they do with the I mean, like my pick after that will be for sure. Shylock is my name and I also love the Merchant of Venice. And I also feel like that's one that, similar to Othello is meaty for a modern retelling. Like there's, maybe they won't do a good job, but there's certainly potential for like present day commentary. I saw a bad retelling of Merchant of Venice because it's hard to make it, I think in a modern audience because the anti-Semitism carries so much. I mean, it was, it just, we know, you know, it's like we know about anti-Semitism and we know the grief and trauma it's caused for centuries. It is really hard to do a modern retelling of Merchant of Venice that like, cause how can you make it a comedy and like still do stuff? That's why I feel like I don't care what it's labeled as. I never think of Merchant of Venice as a comedy. So it's either like, if you want it, I mean, I think it's, so I saw a play that was trying to do both. Like it was trying to like humanize Shylock and make it a story about anti-Semitism, but also make it a love story between like the people who were doing their own thing. And it just like, it didn't work because it was like too disjointed. But if you do it, like, you know, so, and it could just be, we'll have to find, I don't know if Merchant, I mean, I don't know if the RSC has a Merchant production. I think they have them all. We have to, right? So we'll just have to like find, find a production that we can talk about. Cause I think it's hard. Have you ever seen the one with, what's that guy from the Godfather, the actor? Yeah, I actually have seen pieces of that movie. Is it Robert De Niro who plays Shylock? No, it's Al Pacino. Al Pacino, same thing. Not quite, but yeah. And it's actually, the other, the Fines who plays Shakespeare and Shakespeare in Love. It's Fines and his brother, Joseph Fines. He plays Bassanio. Is that the name? I feel like I have seen that movie or at least pieces of it, like in a Shakespeare class because I remember, yeah. I think Al Pacino does a really good job playing Shylock and the actress whose name escapes me who plays Portia is excellent. Cause Portia is actually a pretty good female role like in Shakespeare. He's got a lot of power and that's always been really interesting. She's like the smartest one in the entire play and like the whole thing you're like, you, like Bassanio is like so dumb compared to like Portia, you could do better. Who about her choice? So next month, September is Winter's Tale and Gap of Time and the month after that will be Shylock and Merchant of It. Yep, I'm excited. And I think after that we just have the King Lear one. Yeah, cause like I'm not gonna make you reread Vinegar Girl, but I want to read that myself. I mean, we could, I mean, maybe we'd make a fun discussion. I mean, I- And then we can watch 10 Things I Hate About You. You can watch 10 Things I Hate About You and the movie with Elizabeth Taylor, which like- I've never seen that one, yeah. I, that play is, I mean, Taming of the Shrew was a hard play to read, but that movie makes it so fascinating because Elizabeth Taylor and that guy have such amazing chemistry. You like get it sort of, even though like you don't want to as a modern audience. So maybe- We know my favorite like productions have often been like from our local theater. Like they did my favorite Othello and their production of Taming of the Shrew, I also very much enjoyed it because the way, again, you can't change the text. Well, I mean, you can change the text, but if you're not gonna change the text, all you can really do is like inflection and body language. And through inflection and body language, you can completely change the meaning of the text. So through that, like there's a lot more equality between the characters in the production that our local theater did where it's still like, it's more tongue-in-cheek and less actually abusive. Right, right. So I mean, we could do that and I can try, I mean, vinegar girl is really short and I only got through like a third of it. All of them are short except Macbeth. Yes. So I mean, like I could listen to it and I could do, I mean, I gave up like a third of the way through, but I also didn't have like any impetus to like read it. So we could try again. It'll be at least fun to talk about at the very least. And I mean, I think we had a good ranting about Macbeth, even if the experience of reading it was... So that might be what vinegar girl, vinegar girl, like can I say that? I'll take any excuse to rewatch 10 things I hate about you. Exactly, because that is a masterpiece. So... I don't, is Macbeth actually like, and it's pretty short, but is it the shortest? I think it might be, yeah. Cause you know what? I think I said that last time, that he just happened to make the shortest play the longest, yeah. Cause it's like... I guess I wasn't sure if you meant like, it is actually literally the shortest or it's just like, when you like, when people say like, oh, it's like the shortest one versus like, it is literally the shortest one. I think it literally is the shortest one, maybe. I'll have to look that up. It's either that or Titus and Veronica's, but yeah. Too bad they don't have a modern retelling of Titus speaking of cannibalism. Anyways, I actually have to go because my grandchildren are screaming outside of the door. You're being summoned. I'm on, I'm on. Okay, so next month, next month, gap of time. I'm excited, Winter's Tale. Yeah, I'm excited because Winter's Tale is one. I mean, I've seen it and I've read it, but like, it's more like the Tempest where like, I know of it, but I'm not like into, it's not like a fellow where like, I've seen it so many times where I'm like, have you messed this up? Like, I don't know. Winter's Tale is sort of like coming to a refresher. The only like, the only part of Winter's Tale that I'm intimately familiar with is that like one really great monologue because in every like theater class, like that's monologue that like every woman wants to do is the one that, you know, Hermione does when she's like on trial because that is an excellent monologue. But the rest of the play I'm less familiar with. It's just like a silly weird play, you know? So it's kind of like- It's a silly weird play, except for that middle bit where that monologue happens, which is not silly. It's so dark. It causes you to have a lot of stakes to it. Like there are moments that have a lot of stakes to it, but weird silly things happen, like the bear and all of that. So- It's like mid-summer night to dream but mixed with like off-fellow. You're like, the highest highs and the lowest lows. And like some magic thrown in. Maybe, maybe magic. Maybe she's not- Definitely magic. That end, yes. This whole discussion, is she actually statue or is she not? I don't know. We will talk about it next time. All right, thanks everybody for hanging out. Thank you. All right.