 Something like sex, every human being is here because of it. And yet we can't talk about it because people have decided that it's taboo. Welcome back to the Art of Charm podcast. We are here this week with our friend, Mickey Agrawal. Mickey, welcome to the show. Thank you. So happy to be here with you both. Now you have a book out Disruptor comes out tomorrow in paperback. Yes. And you are known as a disruptive innovator. What does that mean? Because a lot of people hear disruption and they get nervous now. Disruption is getting a bad rap. I love the sound of that disruptive innovator. I mean, I think it just means like looking at the status quo, everything that we do every day, you wake up and you know, you get out of bed, you brush your teeth, you take a poop, you know, you put your shoes on, you walk out the door, you know, you get on in a car in a subway, you go to, you know, go to work and do the thing. It just disrupting for me is really, really questioning every single thing that we do in our lives and asking ourselves, is this because I really want to be doing it this way? Or is it because society has taught me to do it this way? Or is it because my parents and education system and have it just is the indoctrination so deep that I actually believe this to be true for real? Or is it just all made up? And the answer is it's all made up. And so, you know, if you look at all these categories, I mean, my most recent company is called Tushy, and it's a modern bidet that washes your butt clean. And it basically, you know, unlike the super expensive Japanese toilets that cost thousands of dollars plus plumbing, plus electrical, my product is a $79 product that you just attached your existing toilet and turns any toilet into bidet. And I love it, by the way. I see the commercials. I love it. Yay, that makes me so happy. Yeah. And and it's just when you when you really think about, wait a minute, like I have been using dry paper to wipe like smear poop like into my butt and and and and and and think that it's clean. Like, like if you like the analogy I give is imagine if you jumped in your shower, didn't turn the water on and just use dry toilet paper to like wipe your dirtiest bits. People would be like, what is wrong with you? Is wrong? Are you OK down for a second and have a conversation right now? And so the fact that we've been so deeply indoctrinated to believe that this dry paper properly cleans the dirtiest part of our body is just interesting. And it just means that there are so many other things in our lives. You know, money can't talk about money in public. It's tacky. Why is it tacky? Money is just energy that we've made. It's a made up energy exchange that we have agreed to is worth something like it could be rocks, it could be these mugs, it could be anything. And yet we can't talk about it because it's this big taboo or something like sex. Every human being is here because of it. And yet we can't talk about it because people have decided that it's taboo. People have made up that it's something you can't talk about. A woman's period, as an example, can't talk about that because, oh, guess what? The Nepali, the Nepali men think that the entire earthquake happened because of menstruating women. And it just like and all these made up stories like that exist in the world that we just either choose to believe to be true or question. And so my whole thing is, can we take? Can we look at, you know, products like toilet paper and in this country specifically, because the days exist globally. But but can we take this product that people know and and just like have been doing for generations and actually disrupt it? Can we use innovation? Can we use creativity? Can we use art? Can we use the right accessible language to really shift the conversation and not make it so heady and so academic and so clinical and so medical or technical? You know, but make it like you're texting your best friend. Yo, do you check out like, wait, I just realized that I'm like, wiping my butt with dry paper like what am I doing? Like wait, like you talk about it. And and all of a sudden it becomes this like normal conversation that you feel like you can relate to. And so all of the way we write our copy, the way we talk about our business, we talk about our new ideas and new products, the innovations is like we're texting our best friends. So it doesn't feel so scary and and it's fun. It's artful, it's beautiful and it makes you feel there's a kinship to it. And so for me, disruptive innovation is just simply questioning the things around us, questioning the status quo and and using innovation to disrupt that that idea. And do you remember what that first wall of reality was that that crumbled for you that made you start asking, why are we doing this? Yeah, it was in the food space. You know, I was twenty three years old and I'd left investment banking. I, you know, I'm eleven happened when I was twenty two. I was supposed to be there on that day. And it was the first and only day in my life. I slept through my alarm clock, you know, seven hundred people. My girlfriend's office died. Two people in my office died on that day. It was a really crazy time. And it was the moment where I was like, you know, oh, my God, the mystery of life is that you never know when it's going to end. Right. And the time was absolutely now to make it count. And so I had written down three things I wanted to do with my life. The first was to play soccer professionally, because why not? I played soccer all four years in college. I played my whole life. And the second was to make movies. And then the third was to start a business. And, you know, I did all those things, you know, played soccer for New York Magic and worked in the film business for a while. But then I had my first ding, ding, ding idea for my first business, which was born out of this necessity, like you say, which was for me, it was a really horrible, consistent stomach aches. You know, on sets of commercials and music videos, there's these tables called craft service tables where you eat like pigs in a blanket and pizza and like M&M's and like, you know, pretzels and processed crap. And for me, being an immigrant, you know, you know, first generation immigrant who had a big student loan debt, I was like, free food. This will be my breakfast, lunch and dinner. And I would just eat that shit all day long and come home with horrifying stomach aches, obviously. But at the time I was like, what is going on? Because this is when the organic movement didn't pick up, like that, you know, it was still very much, you know, Atkins die or whatever in the early 2000s and and and people weren't really like it was still like, you know, like the frozen, those, those like lean cuisines, like all these things, right? Like process, process when the subway was considered healthy, right? And so we base, I basically, like I kept having some of the cakes and I was, I finally was like, OK, enough is enough. One day I came home with a worse stomach ache and I just went to research. It went to Google. And in my research, discovered the massive process food industry and discovered that every time, specifically when I ate pizza, I kept having these bloated, gassy, gross stomach experiences. And I looked into it and realized, oh, my God, pizza is a 32 billion dollar industry. You know, Americans eat 100 acres of pizza every single day. We love pizza, clearly. And yet it was made with bleached flour, processed cheese, sugar-filled sauces, processed toppings, all this crap. And so the reason why it's considered a thalamus food, a brain food is because it's got all the food groups. So people crave it like our bodies actually crave it because it has all the food groups. But if done, if it's done right, it actually could be good for you. And so at the time, 2002, 2003, 2004, organic was like, you probably taste like cardboard and people were like, oh, like farm to table. What is that? What are you talking about? Like, you know, eat grass with the cows. You know, it was like a really nascent, really early subject. And so that's when I had my first idea. Oh, my God, I'm going to make New York City's first alternative pizza concept that uses gluten-free flowers, hormone, nobody was talking about gluten-free back then. They were like, ew, like it was just organic, gluten-free, natural, all the things. And what I learned from that experience of just first coming up with the idea of a, you know, farm to table pizza concept that was gluten-free called Slice. Now it's called Wild, which you both invited to. And we have four locations now. But yeah, it was like such an interesting uphill battle to climb with people, to get them to like eat this delicious pizza. But they had these these like these blinders on of what society said about organic food. It was it was like, oh, if you're organic, you're wearing Birkenstock and you should go to those weird stores where everyone's wearing burlap sacks. And it's just like everything tastes like, you know, like like dirt. Sounds like a New Yorker. Right. But back in the early 2000s, it was like that everywhere across this country, maybe not as much California, but it was really like that and especially New York. And so I learned very early on, on like how to toe the line between educating people, but not being preachy and and doing it in a fun, creative way and not not too in in your face. How much how much of it? Not only of of putting in different foods, now more healthier foods, whole grain foods on all these things that are going to make your experience so much better. How much also was it this idea that pizza being such a staple like that people just didn't want it to change? Because now you have to ask them this this pizza that you've been having your whole life that generations have been enjoying. And it is now practically an American way we do it. Yes. And that everyone's family has been having and you've been having delivered to your door and this way for how long and now we're going to change that. And certainly people do not like change at all. Exactly. And that's a microcosm. Literally pizza is a microcosm of society. So it's great. And it's like they're like society wants to maintain its form. Society does not want to change. And when there's anyone who's trying to disrupt that in the corners and trying to pull it forward, they're going to call you names, tell you you're crazy, tell you that you're a hope, you hope that you're like black magic, that you're they will say anything and do anything so they can maintain its form. And that's that's the big challenge. And that's why, you know, the disruptors deal with a lot of name calling and a lot of things to move society forward in a certain direction. Because of this tradition of the way things have been done for so long. Now, have you felt in creating, because many of your companies are disruptive in this way, that our taboo, that our edgy has social media helped or hurt these businesses grow? Because I feel like now with the cancel culture, we were laughing about this a little earlier, disruption and pushing on those taboos with social media can get taken down very quickly. I mean, it is it is a very, very interesting place today to be. I do think that social media has been by and large a positive for my companies, to be perfectly honest. There have been moments of, you know, like what the fuckness in the whole thing. But I think that comes with building businesses. I think that comes with having any level of success. There is that there is such thing as a tall poppy syndrome where people want to take you down and cut you down. And that was something that was very unexpected for me. But then I was just like, you know, like Michelle Obama says, like when they go low, you go high, like you stay high and you just have to, you know, you guys are the art of charm. Like there's going to be those moments. But you're like, I'm going to stay in my art of charm moments. Right. Yeah. And it's certainly difficult. We've certainly have had our own battles. But I would imagine for coming at products where you are disrupting. What has always been there in your asking these questions and you're presenting a new way of doing things. That exchange of arguing online is I would see as a positive positive, right? Because it's bringing awareness. People want to jump into the conversation. And then if you start presenting an argument that is just based in facts and there's a lot of people are going to be like, well, I can't really argue. I can't 100. I mean, I'll give you some examples with Tushy, for example. People are like, oh, wouldn't poop just spray everywhere? I don't poop to spray. Oh, forget sorry. No thanks as a comment. No, poop doesn't spray everywhere. It literally is a precise stream of water that pulls the water down. And it's like, oh, is it dirty toilet bowl water or tank water? That's disgusting. I would never use that. No, it's it plugs from the wall. The same water you brush your teeth with. Next question. And it's just like everything is just trying to initially just saying like, oh, it's so gay. No, I've gotten that so many times. It's so gay to use a bidet because you're getting something in your butt. And I'm like, first of all, how lame are you in this day and age? You even say something like that. I mean, that's just and so and it's just like, no, actually, it's not because it's not in your it's it's on. And by the way, it's like, you know, like it's for everyone. And everyone around the world is using it. It's not a new thing. It's just a new adoption in this country. And so there's just so much stigma and so much resistance. Absolutely. To to something new. And it's just about standing strong and refuting and just saying back with with humor. Like, you know, I hired a really, really funny writer from the Upright Citizens Brigade, you know, UCB and she's a writer and she just writes the funniest shit all day long. And we just and that's like that's the report that we have and people just laugh. And so it's like poop is just a funny subject your butt. And, you know, so so for us, it's like we do get a lot of naysayers in the beginning. And what's interesting, what's the most interesting is the biggest naysayers, the biggest shit talkers, become the biggest champions. I guess they are talking shit really loud or talking like positive, really like, like, and then we finally were like, all right, stop yelling. Like, try this, probably give you a big discount. Just just try it. And then they're like, oh, my God, I was so wrong. So it's like the big, you know, it's like always it's like the loud minority on both sides that can that can move things, move things around. Most of us are in the silent majority. Now, obviously with these these companies and these ideas and pushing against the status quo, there's a lot of rejection that comes along with it. And I think we all struggle with rejection, whether it's posting stuff online or in our social lives or dating lives. And how have you built up a tolerance for rejection to be able to push the boundaries? I always think about rejection as like the first it's the first defense. It's the first no, it's the first. It's like, all right, cool. That then this this way of explaining this to you didn't quite work. Let me try a different way. OK, you care about the planet. OK, you don't necessarily care about your health and hygiene, which we all should. But OK, you care about the plant, you know, 15 million trees that cut down every single year to make toilet paper. You know, do you know that there are billions of gallons of water and bleach used to make toilet paper, you know, versus people like, well, what about water? Why have to save water? You know, you're using one pint of water versus what it takes to make a single roll of toilet paper requires 37 gallons of water to make one roll of toilet paper. And the average American uses 57 sheets of toilet paper per day. So net net, you're actually saving 55 gallons of water per week by using fresh water to properly clean you. I mean, so like we have like, we just have the truth to what people's big, you know, like resistances are. And I generally love it because then we can like educate them. They can then take that education and go and school other people. Yeah. Oh, and by the way, do not go to Tushy.com. It's a very graphic porn site. Very anal graphic. Go to Hello Tushy.com to be very clear. Do not go to Tushy.com. Hello Tushy.com. You guys said it was in the right place. Very important. Everyone's listening at work. They're like, oh, I want to clean. But whoa, OK. Graphic people do not. So when we were hanging out in New York, you were getting ready for, I believe it was Budfest. It was. But Khan. But Khan. There we go. And it was exactly this, having some fun with the whole thing, right? Why are butts such taboo in this culture? We all have one. We all poop. We all bend down. We all like need it. It's universal. It's a universal thing. And yet because, again, society made this part sexual and taboo. It's all of a sudden something that we have to run away from. So we held but Khan, you know, the first but Khan in America where this year we're having our first but Khan deuce 2020. You guys are both invited. And and it's everything from but lift doctors, anal reconstruction surgeries, like poop doctors for gut bacteria. Like to realize on gut biome, we had the anal porn star. Porn star, also, Kira there. We had like anal. I mean, but facialist there who does but who does but facial. People have like some of these people have like pimples on their butt. So you can do but facials. There's so. I mean, there's a lot that people don't even like that. We I learned myself having thrown it. I was like, wait, we had twerking competition. We had to work off. I mean, like we're going to answer the twerking competition. Oh, yeah, it was wild. And we had the cake sitter with this woman named Lindsey Dye. It was like this cake sitter who sits who torques over cakes and sits in the cakes and then like smears the cake all over her butt. And she this is what she does for a living as a as like a show. Yeah. And so it's it's just interesting what people what's out there. And we put it all together and it was an incredible event. People we sold out of tickets because people are interested in the subject. And that's what that's my biggest thesis in the reason why I wrote Disruptor. The thesis is that we think that people don't want to have these conversations that people don't want to talk taboos. And and yeah, out loud, people don't want to talk about them. But guess what? The minute someone gets a bidet, someone gets a tushy and all of a sudden someone goes that they're having a dinner party, their friends, you know, see them, it becomes the topic of conversation for the entire dinner is about poop and their butts. Because all of a sudden it's just permission and everyone needs permission. I'm sure you guys know all about that. And it's like that's the thing. It's like the minute we talk about periods, everyone's like, oh, my God, I want to talk about poop. Oh, my God, organic, gluten free, whatever it is that like the business that I've started that people have been like, you know, sensitive to talk about and out loud. The minute we have these companies like, oh, my God, like, why is it tacky to talk about money out loud? Why can't I change careers if I'm not really interested in doing the same thing? And I mean, if I became a medical doctor, you know, one of my friends is a doctor and, you know, went through. He's like made his, you know, his family is like the most proud family ever for, you know, because they come from Peru. And and and he's the first like college graduate in the family, the first doctor in the family. And there's a lot of pressures, but he he's not necessarily in love with the profession anymore. And and it's like life is short. Like you can go and like do other things. Like while you're still a doctor, you can get more education and do whatever, you know, whatever else you want to do. Like it's not just because you follow this one career path, you have to stick to it for the rest of your life. Like, you know, so there's so many things that we feel kind of stuck by that is just made up. Well, I think there's certainly and we were talking about this earlier, certainly a large segment of society who is not vocal, who are not screaming at the top of their lungs about everything and upset about everything, who like well reasoned arguments, who want to see the world to be a better place, who want to have fun and are interested in unique fun experiences. Yes. However, because they're busy doing their things and not screaming at everything, it's difficult to drown out exactly. And that that's exactly yet to bring back. The point is that people are interested in the change. People are interested in trying new things. People are interested in looking at something from a different perspective. And and and even for me, like raising money as an entrepreneur to for these businesses that are taboo was so difficult because all the investors are like, no one's going to. No one's no one's talking about. No one's interested. No one's going to. This is not even a category. Like, what are you doing? You know, and it's just like and I I spent a year trying to raise money for my period, I raised zero dollars. I tried to raise for Tushy. It was very, very hard to raise for Tushy, even after having in a big win under my belt was really, really hard because people were just like, no. But it turns out that people are people were buying. I mean, our business is doubling and tripling year over year because people are interested. Well, I remember the first time I think it might it was I saw Tushy on scrolling Facebook at I think was the first time I saw it. And my first reaction was to laugh. And I can't believe this is on or what is it? And then I watch the thing like, oh, yeah, it's the right. It was like, oh, oh, you get a laugh. And then you get people to agree, right? Yeah. Now, one of the concepts in the book that we loved is this idea of iteration is perfection. And for a lot of our audience, we've talked about this in the past. Perfectionism holds them back and keeps them from even starting and understanding that perfectionism is keeping you from your dreams. We love this concept of iteration. Can you unpack that and how you discovered that? Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's, you know, we all we have this dream destination of like what we're going to do if we, you know, we build this thing and we sell our company and we make a lot of money. It actually like it turns out that it's it's the process of like making adjustments, of building the business, of creation. That's perfection, that it's the fun part. You know, being perfect is boring. Being perfect, trying to get to the perfect place in the perfect way, which prevents you from starting at all boring. You know, what's interesting is the journey that you go on as you're learning and growing and putting something out there, putting yourself out there, putting the business out there, getting answers, getting feedback and then making micro iterations, micro adjustments, fixing things. Oh, that was a mistake. You know, I made like my CEO and COO and I were laughing just now at Team Tushy because we just launched our website and the satisfaction guaranteed like logo image like was broken, which was like so ironic. Like, like, you know, and I was just like, you guys, this is like like like the of the image and then it's fixed now. But I was just like, I mean, like it's just it's just an so we fixed it and it's iterative and we just made it and like. And so it's just it's a constant adjusting, readjusting, fixing, you know, not making, not being so hard on ourselves. I think that's another big part, you know, we've in my book, I talk about the perfectionism situation and how iteration is perfection. But I also talk about how, you know, we've been taught from the moment we were we were like in the world about like like that we learned through punishment, right? It's like, if you don't do that, if you do this, then I'm not going to give you this or if you don't sit down and be quiet, then you're going to go to the principal's office. And if you're then it's just punishment based. And when things are punishment based, it puts you in the zone of like, I don't want to get out of line. I get afraid of being myself. And it's like when between between our schools, you know, the horseman created the normal school and common school and basically create the standardized tests, the rows of desks, the whole thing to create factory workers, right? And so and so the idea is that like we're to create cogs in a machine and we're not cogs in the machine where human beings with different feelings, different ideas, different things that we're passionate about. And when we're trying to be put in this machine, it's no wonder people are on Adderall to stay focused on the thing that they hate doing all day. You know, the number of people who I've known, who I know, who've been on Adderall for 15, 20 years because they hate what they're doing, but they think it's what they're supposed to be doing or they're taking antidepressants because they think that they're supposed to be doing that. And it's just like it's just nonstop. And it's like because they're trying to fit themselves in a box that doesn't belong to them. So that's just it. It's like it's like disrupt her is it is permission, it's liberation to like figure out exactly who you are. Disrupt the norms of society, what your parents, what everyone around you is saying and choose for yourself. What is in deep alignment? And that and then follow that in every in your relationships, in money, in your career, in your friendships, in the complaint culture, in feminism, in the patriarchy, like every single thing we can choose. And we don't have to pick a faction and then not like, for example, I became a mom recently, right? Am I pro-choice? Yes, of course. But do I also now emphasize with the pro-lifer because I also see like after 12 weeks or there's a beating heart or 10 weeks, there's a beating heart and that equals life. And now that I'm a mom, like I get what they're I get their play. They're not trying to be bad people. They believe they're saving lives. And so it's like, but for me to even say this here, might get a bunch of pushback, right? By being like, oh, you're a pro-lifer now. No, you're writing the letters. That's not right. That's just it. Everyone is like black and white. It's like why it's never black and white. It's always in the gray. And that's why, like I've this whole summer, I put together. I created a little puppet show, which I haven't released yet, which is basically me and a puppet, which is basically my subconscious that's talking to myself. Basically, that's like about all the subjects, like abortion, like, you know, the planetary issues that we have in the world. I mean, it's like, you know, we have to figure out how to stop burning down these forests and burning down the, you know, the Amazon and Australia and all these things, and we also have to figure out how to get people jobs. They're not desperate to freaking do that. And so, like, what is it? Like, like everyone has their own agendas and it's like what? Like, you know, and everyone has their own angle of what they believe to be true. And so if we're taking sides, we're not showing compassion to each other. We're not able to to reach a resolution to work hand in hand. It just creates more divisiveness. And guess who? Guess who wins with that? The media. That's it. Yeah. Absolutely. Nobody else. And what I get, the sense that I get from the book and having spent time with you is this authenticity. And it's something that people strive for and they want the answer. How could I be more authentic? How can I be someone who other people perceive as authenticity? What does that mean to you? I just think so for me, being authentic and being an integrity means what you're thinking, feeling and saying match up. So often what we say versus like, oh, I really like your haircut. And then I really like your haircut. And then I'm thinking, oh, I don't know. Like, it's something to me. It's like, you know, I just got my hair just literally cut like 18 inches off my hair and someone could be like, oh, really nice haircut in their head. They're like, oh, it makes your cheeks look big or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, I like who knows. But it's like and people who think that they're an integrity think, oh, and I'm a good person. So therefore I'm an integrity, right? I've been working with my life coach, Lauren Zander, for like the last seven years, who's been teaching me all about just like being OK to speak your truth fully and and with like with love. And if you do it with love, like whatever you say is OK because it's your truth. And so it's like for me, it becomes contrived when we're not speaking my when I'm not speaking my truth, like I can tell like you can be. You can anyone can tell when someone's being like, uh-huh, you know, versus like, oh, no, they're authentic. For me, it's like it's it comes from your root chakra. You can feel it in your belly if you're speaking your truth or not. And if you're not, if your heart and your mind aren't aligned with your mouth, then you have to stop saying anything until you are. And it's something you're striving towards. I feel like all these pressures that are put on us to fit in on social media, to have a major brand, to grow a company, of course, we're going to be fighting that constant and and it's going to be a struggle. And there are going to be days where you win and you are 100% authentic. And there are going to be days when you gave in a little bit because you're put in a situation and you bit your tongue. But striving for it is the goal. That's it. And that's an iterative process, right? Like we can't. Sure. You know, I'm reading Ram Dass's book right now, Be Here Now, which is like pretty cliche. But like at the same time, it's not because it's really an incredible book. And the idea is that, you know, he talks about the witness. So there's me, like, like, like the the the the ego me. And then there's the witness me, like witnessing me operating in the world. Right. And so when, you know, when we're in meditation, we get to be a we really find the witness version of ourselves and the witness of ourselves is operating from a higher consciousness, right? From a place of love, of compassion, of of connectedness, not separation. It's a place of just its observation. The witness is observing, but it's from a place of higher consciousness. So like what what he says, which was exactly true for me. It's like I was in the woods by myself reading Ram Dass, reading Sadvi's book from like, she's a she she she, you know, runs an ashram in India. I read this incredible book called Come Home to Yourself by Sadvi Saraswati. It's an incredible book. And reading these books really about coming home to myself. And I was like in theory, like in my theory mode where it was like working so great. I was I was transcending in my meditations and I was like, you know, becoming a witness to myself. And then the minute I came back to LA and I have like, you know, like a baby who's tugging on me and like all these things that are happening and all this stuff and and like little irritants come up. Witness goes away right away. And you're like, whoa. And then you have to like go back to meditation and then get it back and then like get back to your higher state. And it's a constant iteration and the most important thing that everybody says my coach, Sadvi Ramdas, is just laugh at yourself. Don't be hard on yourself. And so like that's the hardest thing is like we're always like, oh, I can't believe I got, you know, I got angry or I got irritated, like I shouldn't have. Versus like, oh, there's my little like anger, you know, Ali coming out, you know, like I'm going to put her back in her, you know, little box now. And we talk about talking to yourself. Yeah, passion is if you were a child, you would not discipline the child with, oh, my God, how could you do that? You would try to get the child to cheer up and move past the mistake. Exactly. To go along with something you were mentioning there as well, of being able to speak your truth and how it allows you to feel good. Absolutely. And then to the other part of that is when you're not that you do not feel good. I mean, you were we were laughing about this today because we were coming in talking about how many people are living these lives online virtually or through these the social media, why not? And they're trying to live up to these things, but they're unable to. And what is what is that causing that is causing mass anxiety and doubt? And and of course, authenticity is this new word that everyone seems to be struggling with and trying to run towards because because we're living in a place that is so disingenuous with the social media that everyone's trying to live up to. And it's like it's self-induced. It is. And that's in it's like the perfect angle on how many pictures can you take from this angle with part of my jawline? And then someone and then like, you don't want to be seen publicly because people only know you from face to face. And it's just like and all the filters and all the likes and comparing yourself to other people. It just creates the worst version of ourselves. And so for me, like I so I'm right now in my three month, what I call my chrysalis, which is a three month time in. I've actually never taken any any time in my adult life where I'm able to really not be in the throes of email of social of like doing, doing, doing, doing, but really in a place of reading of journaling of introspection. And I'm taking three months. I, you know, my CEO, CEO are super supportive of of me in this time. And I'm, you know, just really grateful that that I get this time. And I think that that's these are the periods where we can figure out like what is it? What's our next move? Like what is it that we care about? And who are we? And who are we? Because we're so inundated by the media and marketing to be someone else and to be inauthentic. And then I saw, I turned off my social media for the, for the, for three months. I just took them off my phone and it's been really, really lovely and liberating. And I, you know, I have like, I've had posts that were pre, pre scheduled. And so they're going out and, you know, in my, in my, in my assistant is like posting them and also letting me know if there's anybody who wants to like connect with me in certain ways. But it's just been like, it's like, it just, you just kind of get in the zone, right? I've just like checking out the people doing, or they just, it's like, if you want to connect with people, connect with them offline. Like, I just, I feel like it's so easy to lose time on those apps. And even when screen time was launched on the iPhone that started to calculate how much time you're spending, it gives you anxiety thinking about how much time is wasted. Let's hop into our mailbag. We got a great question here that I think you're going to have a fantastic answer to around storytelling, but it's an interesting twist. So I'm a new listener to your podcast. I've been listening for a few episodes on storytelling, which was the theme a few months back. I've often thought of myself as a bit of a storyteller, though I know I can get better. I have a question though. When in conversation, how do I encourage others to tell their stories? Often I find that people answer in one or two sentences to the questions that I could easily talk on and on about. Any advice would be appreciated. Um, I would probably say, okay, give me, give me, tell me a story of when you like showed, you know, like resilience, or you actually, or just like, tell them, so you actually have to feed them a question of like telling you a story of the time when, or like, like, can you give me an example of like, you know, over, you know, we just had a great conversation about, you know, about, about confidence. Like when was the last, like, can you tell me, like put me in the scene of like the time you felt most confident? So just like, I think it's really about a moment in time and getting people to relive a story and not tell a story. And I'm sure you've heard that a million times too, but it's something that we forget often is like, put me in a seat, like show me, like what was happening? Who are you talking to? Give me the dialogue. Like I just want to put me in the scene. And I think it's like, if you, if you, if you make them, you know, put themselves back in that moment, they can relive the story. And it's, it's now a story and no longer like, yeah, I learned this. It's like, okay. So then I went here and in my, you know, in the woods, I stumbled upon this, you know, this infinity crystal. And I walked inside and saw millions of versions of myself. And then this old man shows up and he, you know, or I could have just said, yeah, I like found love for myself. Right. So it's like, or put me back in that scene and relive that moment with me. So I think that's a really great way of leading somebody into reliving a moment. Some vulnerability there. And I think put me in that scene is so beautiful because immediately it's like, Oh, well, I have to paint the full picture. I can't just give a couple of details. I really got to set it for the other person to follow along. Yeah. And I think a big part of this, and we talk about this on the shows, all we can do is create the space for other people to share, but we can't manipulate people into sharing when they don't want to share or telling stories because we want them to do so. Totally. And that's such a big mistake that we make in whether it's, oh, I want this person to feel a certain way about me or I want to be perceived. We don't have that kind of control. We don't. The only control we have is of our own behavior and what we're sharing. And what we talk about is actually following or leading by example. So if you want someone to really open up and be vulnerable, well, you have to go first. And I'm sure it's the same with these taboos that we're talking about. In a boardroom, no one wants to talk about periods. So you're going to have to go first and you're going to have to talk about periods to get people to go, you know what, I can, I can break through. And now I can talk openly about this. Yeah. I mean, I think that it's, I think it's just like massaging the relationship a little bit more and that like to get to get them more and more comfortable by just asking them like, oh, like just just keep further inquiry. I think it's, you know, if we if we, or you can tell when someone's like not interested in talking to you at that point, you're like, cool, like I'm going to go over there and have another conversation or someone is interested in being okay with that and being completely and not offended by that. So it's like, it just like, do you, are you down to share? And I feel like, oh, I'm not feeling well right now. Or everyone's in their own story. Right. Like, so and so, right. So because of that, which is like, we can't, yeah, like, you know, sobby said like that you can't control like, like it's like controlling people that kind of control the weather. It's like, we just can't like, so I just, you just wasted energy. It just wasted energy. And it's like, if they're not willing to tell you a story, then cool, great. And I want to bring up something that we've talked a lot about on the show as well when it comes to this is we tend to think that everyone's doing the same things that we are. And so if we are doing all this work in order to get better at storytelling and get more socially confident and put ourselves out, we forget that not everyone else is in that same headspace. So because you're interested in getting better at storytelling and putting yourself out there and meeting people, the other people that you're going to are utterly terrified because we're now in this place where everyone's technology is so important that that socialization is one of the last thing that anyone is working on. At this point. So though you may have. This is where you guys come in. Yeah. Well, you've put yourself together to walk over there. You're working on these new skills. You're really good and you're you're feeling good about your process. But the other people are against the wall freaking out that you have come over there to say hello. So back to AJ's point is remember not everyone is seeing this as an opportunity to progress and get better. They're still working out of their shell. So by creating that space, you're they're going to be more inclined to open up. However, you cannot force people to do that. Yeah, 100 percent. My husband, Andrew, he started. He's, you know, in the process of finishing his book called Social Flow, which is about how to be in flow state in social situations. And, you know, I think 70 or 80 percent of people suffer from social anxiety. Like it's a real thing, especially today with everyone on their social media and not really in person. And so going into these networking or these connecting groups or walking into a room where you don't know anybody, like there's there's a lot of real anxiety that comes up for people. And so he came up with a really brilliant system that gets people in their flow state. And it's called I can. And you guys should meet with him at some point because he's so great. And basically I can. It stands for like intentionality, curiosity, authenticity now. And so the presence. And so the idea is that like you first, you set an intention. Okay. I'm walking into this room. I'm going to this meeting or I'm going to these podcasts interviewer. I'm going to do this very important presentation. Like what's my intention? Okay. My intention is to have a really great time. My intention is to have a really fun check to know these guys. Like that's my, that's my intention. And then, okay, curiosity. What am I interested in knowing? Like, okay, so I'm really curious to know like what you guys are interested in working on right now. Oh, like, you know, the stuff you guys doing at work is so interesting. I'm like thinking about other companies that can work with you for the in, in office, you know, conflict resolution, all the epic stuff that you guys are working on. I'm so curious about that, right? You know, and then authenticity is like, what do I authentically want to share? Well, I'm just sharing, you know, whatever questions get thrown at me. I'm going to share for my authentic place. And then, and then the most important thing is now is to be present. And so it's like, what's my intention? What do I want to know? What I want to share and be present. And that's it. And once you really like get that flow of it and, and you're not like it's not contrived anymore. It just becomes part of you. Then you can enter any room and really get relaxed. You're not like, what question do I want to ask? What it's like, just like, oh, what's your, you know, just get to know them and ask a real question that you want to know. Like all of those, all four of those things are inside of you. Yes, you are controlling you. Yes, you are setting the intention. You are being curious. You are being authentic and present. This is not something that you can just pull out of other people. And that's where I think the framing of this question. Oh, I think you added internally instead of, hey, how do I pull this information out of people? Here's one from Rebecca. Yes, I'm a young professional and I work at a tech company. And I would say that my social skills are for the most part pretty good. I have a great circle of friends. And in fact, my last review at work was very encouraging. But here's the one thing that I can't figure out. And it's becoming more and more of a problem, especially at work. When I'm friendly and engaged, it's almost always interpreted as flirtatious, especially by all the single guys at work. Turning them down always creates a bad vibe. But it seems like the only way to prevent this pattern is to be distant and standoffish, and that's not me. Any advice on how it can be open and friendly without getting asked out a few minutes later? Thanks, Rebecca. There's so much going on in this question. So let's just have Mickey to kick this off because there's so much going on here. I mean, I think, I think for these kinds of things, to really quit back, like in my book, Disruptor, I talk about like the three, the triple Q technique, it's called quip question quit. And so quit back is like retort back with a funny, with a funny one liner. Because like you don't want, because like guys sometimes or anyone doesn't know what their boundaries are until you establish them, right? And you don't want to be like, like, I'm so offended. Like, don't ask me, like, you know, because being offended right away is just never creates connectedness, only creates separation. Nobody wants that and creates more bad vibes. Yes. And so quit back means just joke back and or just like say something fun back because it's not like they're, they're trying to. They're no one's trying to hurt anyone. Like people just are, oh, she's nice to me. Oh, maybe she likes me because I'm single and I really like her. And maybe she, you know, whatever. And so it's like their own. It's also them putting themselves out out on a limb to like anyone would if they met someone that they thought were cute and cool. So by quipping back and just meeting them where they are and meeting them where they are, doesn't mean invitation. Meeting them where they are just means like if they say something and you could just say a line that kind of like shuts them down, but in a really funny, fun way that doesn't make them feel bad. And I know like I've in my, you know, in some responses that I would get from this Cripple Q technique would be like, what's, why is it on me to have to quit back to them and make them feel comfortable and good? And why can't I just, because people don't know, people haven't been taught. Well, and to go along and let you finish with that, but I want to make a point before we differentiate this, you'll finish yours. And I'm going to take on the guys. Thank you. Great. So, okay. Great. Amazing. So I love this. This is really fun, juicy. I love this. Um, I mean, I would just, I would say something funny. And then if, if they don't get it, then I would question like, Hey, like, I don't know. I mean, like, is this the best time? Is this the best place to do it? Like it's probably not the best, like, like environment, right? Like, so just you question, you have a question, but again, not in like a, why are you doing this? Like, you know, like there's a way to do it where you're like letting the, it's like, it's like going to a bar and telling a guy, like, I'm not interested, but it just happens to be in the office. And yeah, it's more inappropriate in an office because that's what society says, but then also that's just, that's what it's just what it's acceptable. Right. And so, and so it's just a matter of like creating a boundary in a really friendly way and then moving on and not thinking twice about it, not getting offended by it. I don't know if you watch the most recent Curb Your Enthusiasm about this whole thing. And it's just like, it just gets out of hand when the offendedness and how victimized people get immediately. And, and then it's like now, like I feel so bad because like I have a, you know, one of my friend's sons who's like 22, he's like, I don't know how to ask girls out. Oh, terrified. Like, I don't know what to do anymore. All the time. Right. So let's unpack that a little further. So the third cue. So we got the quip joke about it. I'm too high maintenance for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is this really the best place to be hitting on women? Okay. We got the question. And then third is quit, which is like, Hey, it's probably like, like, let's probably write the best time. I'm just going to, I'll be back. Like, I'll see you later. You know, so just like you, you quit the moment. So you just like diffuse the moment, not being like, I'm out of here. That's fucked up. You know, it's more just like, it's like, let's, you know, like, like, I got to, I have something I have to do right now. And then maybe you send them an email and just be like, you know, and then it's written and you're like, Hey, like, this is just like, you know, a friendly office teammate vibe here. Like I just want to keep that vibe, you know, thanks. And like, just keep it light. Cause like, you know, like, cause, cause, cause if the guy might be interpreting it as flirtatious, so even if I'm not like, even if the girl isn't intending it that to be that way, he might be receiving it that way. At which point there's a disconnect. And so now it's on her to, to like make sure he's aware. And humor is the easiest way to diffuse that tension. I think so too. And that's where the quip comes in. Yeah. Donnie, you were. Oh, well, yeah. I just, cause there are people are going to say, right? They're like, why should I have to like, you know, like play his ego and blah, blah, blah. And here's the thing. The guys need to get it together as well. They think there's blame to be put on them, especially now she might be a little bit nervous that it would be taken that way, that it's flirtatious. That's a possibility. And it is a very real one. And these guys need to get their act together because I work, the work is not the dating pool. It's not the singles club. What are you doing? If you, if you are a hundred percent, if you were with your career, then you're not looking at work as a place to be dating. Now, if they're getting the wrong signal, though, but there's two things that go on at work that need to be taken in a court here. Number one, if it is from a higher up, it's a power play and that's no good. And that's all that's a completely different thing. Yes. From what I'm gaining from this conversation is, is there every it's looks like everyone's co-workers, yeah, yeah. Now we always talk about this. We get this letter all these letters all the time. And it always starts out like this, I know I'm not supposed to be shitting where I work, but, but there's this one girl. And it's like, here, let's just go to why you think this. Number one, because you don't have any other options in your life. And because you don't have any options, other options in your life, you're succeeding on this biology is, is kicking so hard that all of a sudden it's going to create options where there isn't any. Because you have programming that you're not going to escape. You're only able to override it. So you need to think through this. Now, so this is why for the guys, it's like, get it together. This is not, and, but this sort of thing that you're doing and, and looking at this woman in this manner is creating a vibe around the office. Now, we won't even talk about how that affects the other guys that are in there. And let's say that some of the guys are good friends. And now all of a sudden it's, oh, you think you can ask her out? And now they're egging each other on. And now we're, now we're getting to a place where the whole environment is completely toxic. No one can get anyone done. The guys are not focused on what they need to be doing. She feels odd walking into work. Yeah. She's an authentic. Yeah. A hundred percent. So everybody needs to start mining their Ps and Qs at work and be going there for what, what you're supposed to be doing. And you have all the dating apps in the world to make these things so easy. So why are you dragging your libido to work with you? So for proximity is actually like a psychological thing. It's huge. It creates options where there is any. Yeah. And so the broad answer here is everyone needs to grow up a little bit on this and rise above. And and I loved your tactics for the, for the ladies. So that's rad. Yeah. I mean, I think it's again, it's like it isn't on her necessarily. It's it is on, isn't it isn't on her to educate him with using being sweet and soft and being like whipping back. But I just think to create a lasting resolution, laying down the law with a heavy hand in the beginning just won't create that, that real result and only create more resentment and then being like, oh, you know, well, how is anyone supposed to work together after that? Right. The guys feel scalded and she, I know it sucks for her. So much to have to even deal with because she's like, I'm trying to be friendly and nice and it's frustrating and they need to be taught. And so she can then be like, OK, I'm going to educate them. And this is an opportunity for me to educate them for the rest of our lives and do it in a really fun way so we can still maintain a connection and not like be, be further distant. Right. And I think that's the way that adversarial nature is not going to be helpful in that environment because like, you know, the work that you guys are doing conflict resolution, like how to be in harmony with people, how to stay in a charming environment. Like, right? Like that doesn't, that's not taught. And so anywhere. And so this is why it's important this work. But and also I think that in that situation, that situation would not have happened if there had been just a team meeting in the very beginning being like, this is what needs to get done. Here's how you're not supposed to talk to people. Don't take each other's things as a cue for whatever. Don't bring this into the company. Like there's so many things that happen. And then also like sometimes in office romance happens and then and then and then they get married. And then they're like my sister and her coworker colleague are madly in love and they work together. And so it's sometimes because you're there so off. So your whole day, it becomes you just fall in love with people. And so, you know, I think it's on both sides to maintain the relationship, to keep it chill. Is that just not being so heavy-handed? Miscommunication happens. And people getting the wrong cues happens. And if you are too tolerant of it and you totally change who you are, you are inauthentic. That's one thing. But also if you're too rigid about it, right, you're going to set yourself up. So it sucks to have to be like, I have to tow a line. But it's like, but everybody has to. Yeah, we were just laughing about that earlier. We got to tow a line in front of us. Everyone has to tow a line. So to be like, oh, I don't want to tow any lines. We'll then go out in the woods. Go look at your gift in the Crystal Castle. All right, I'm 35 years old and I work as a manager at a great restaurant. I'm not really enjoying my job anymore. And I don't think I could do this long term. The pay is great. And at this point, I make my own schedule. My friends tell me I have the perfect job, but I'm not happy. How should I go about a career change? Um, I would have, um, I would do like take, just say, like, I'm going to do a leave for like, you know, a couple of weeks or a month, you know, and, and do some real soul searching and then also start to really look into other, you know, like, say, like, does he have entrepreneur friends that he likes or does he have like people that he really admires or every time he hears about someone else's job, he lights up talking to them about it. Like, what is it that lights him up? And if, um, and to follow that into maybe do like a small like externship, if it makes his own schedule, he can do like, you know, intern for places a couple of times a week and see if that's something that he's interested in. And if it is, and he can, he can go on his, you know, he can test it out. So I don't think that just like leaving your job immediately and not being responsible because we do, we do have to pay bills and things like that. That is a reality of life. So I always suggest to specifically entrepreneurs to never like jump off the bridge until you have, you're able to like have at least like a few months of runway, six months runway. So you're not like stressing out every day about what you're doing. Cause that just makes it not fun. Unplugging for a bit. I like that piece of advice because it's going to be very hard for you to find the answer when you're going to a place that you don't enjoy on a daily basis. And you're grinding and you're all day doing and doing and doing and you're not being and asking like, I'm, I really, I've only been on my chrysalis for less than a month and so much revelations have come in. And I can only imagine what happens. I'm spending all next month in Santa Barbara in like literally in nature. You know, we don't know anybody there. And, um, and that's going to be really interesting for, for us because, um, I'm going to be able to even do more deep work, you know, and then we'll see again in practice what happens. But like, um, I think that this time has been so precious and valuable and important to me that I can't, I don't think I'm able to go back and, um, and, and not want to do this like every year or every couple, every, every, you know, like as a, not just a one-off thing, but as a, as a, as a common thing in my life, I, I, before taking my chrysalis, I started doing Fridays as a thinking day, thinking day Fridays. So no emails, no calls, no, no busy work on Fridays where I get to just really think and, um, I spent the last three months taking, thinking Fridays and my thinking days and so much ideas, campaigns, inventions, create the space. So many things have come through from my Friday thinking days. And so we're so, we're so used to like checking your phone all day, like answering emails and busy, busy, busy, busy, I have this, I have that. And you're like, no, you can schedule that on Monday. You can schedule that on Thursday. You don't have to do it just because your phone said you should. And you brought up the externship, which is another fantastic example of reaching out to the people you admire, seeing how you could help them. And maybe there's an opportunity where you can learn a little bit more if that's truly something that you would be interested in. Instead of just thinking that, well, if I keep going to my nine to five that I hate, the perfect job is definitely going to land in my lap. Right. I just got to stick with this. And it's going to happen. Exactly. That's not a good strategy. Well, one thing that I was doing the live yesterday that I brought up and it was about this, you know, we've been working together for 14 years and I'm also a musician and an AJ has been there the whole time. Like when we moved to New York to start this company, I was in a band in three months. And when I moved out to Los Angeles, I've been playing is here since we've been out here. And at this point, at 10 years of being in Los Angeles, I can't even remember all the bands that I've been at this point. But my point being is that I got to do that and still do those things at a very high level and neither career has interfered with each one. And in order for that to happen, that's like a bridge that you would cross when you get there. So I have fun. Do some of these other things. You have all the technology, your fingertips to do these other things. And the what ifs and all that, well, that's all they are. Yes, exactly. It's just self made roadblocks. We got one last question here from Peter, big fan of your show, guys. Listening to the shows definitely improved my communication skills and your episode on cognitive dissonance has really made me reflect on some conversations I've had with an old friend from uni. He's well versed and says some really smart things. But I do disagree with him on some things. And he always says rude things and inappropriate places. There are just questions that really start simple, but always end rude around my politically correct friends and family. And then I'm the one that sounds rude when I try to shut them down. My friend's family always likes talking philosophy. So they always take the bait and always end up not being able to answer the question without contradicting themselves, which results in looking stupid and getting angry, which always ruins the mood. It makes my friends more depressed in this case of cognitive dissonance where what people are taught is different from what they believe or using false arguments to portray something. My friend is not rude. He just asks questions in a Socratic method. But of course they come across as rude to my friends and families. I feel like there should be some communication technique that I can use to diffuse the situation between my friends that I care about. And of course, this one friend who likes to pick arguments, kind regards, Peter. How do we handle the person who's just argumentative and likes poking holes in the narrative that those who are in the middle are guarding so deeply? Like you can't change people. Like you can't change the weather. And so really like stop caring so much about what other people are doing and just be the change yourself. Like be the person that that inspires them to change. But we can't convince anyone to do anything. And that's what I realized, you know, just in building my companies. It's like I can just create the most artful, beautiful, you know, like the best product, best in class product, the right language, the right artful aesthetic. But at the end of the day, it's not up to me where they're going to buy it. They're going to buy it because you're like, oh, that really spoke to me. Or they're going to be some people who just don't want water shooting at their butt. That's literally fine. That is fine. They have to be OK with that. And that's exactly it. It's like there are billions of people on the planet and there's going to be a major faction. I mean, I really predict that in 10 years, we're going to look back. People are like, I can't believe I used to use dry paper to wipe my butt. I really predict that. But but for now, I mean, it's just yeah, like whoever it's like the early adopters and the early majority and then the major, you know, it's just going to it's going to happen. And it's I can't control. I can't control anybody's action except for my own. Yeah. And that's that's the problem that Peter is in. He is trying to be a people pleaser by trying to have a friend who loves to argue, get along with friends who don't want to get invigorated to those arguments because they don't want their beliefs question. And he's sitting here going, how do I make this work? And it's like, stop. You don't have to spend time with them together. Number one, there's no rule that says all of your friends have to get along. Now, I'm not saying cut people out of your life because everyone is like, oh, my God, they're they're telling you to remove people. No, you limit your time. Time is a resource. You can spend time with your Socratic method friend and have a lot of great conversations with just him. And then you could spend time with your friends and family who don't want to go through the Socratic method over why they believe a certain religion or why they have a certain political viewpoint. I've spent time with friends who are in two entirely different camps. I'm not assembling a dinner and saying, hey, let's hash it out. Let's get my friends who are conservative together and my liberal friends together and let's let's solve this and get world peace together over Turkey. Some people love schooling others. People love talking and being like, oh, this is the way you should be done. And people just love to hear them think people love to sound smart. Yeah. And so because of that, they just forget that no one gives a shit except for them unless they decide to give a shit. They have to decide to give a shit. And that's it. And it's not like trolling was invented the minute we went online. It's been there throughout history. And there are people who love messing with people because they can because they get off on that. Now, if that is something that you want to get away from, then leave that situation and spend less time with your friend who, to me, when I read this, he sounds like he's just trolling just to troll with his with his family. And that is somebody I wouldn't want to be around. And unfortunately, it's just a part of life. There are those people. And I've, you know, it seems to me that Peter would love to just wave a wand and make his friend a decent part of this problem that we're talking about here is in every argument you're seeing right now. There are two sides and there are beliefs that we're not going to break down. Yeah. And and we are not going to be able to bring these people together in a way that's going to allow us to feel good. And being a little selfish here with your time and saying, you know what, my Socratic Method friend, we're going to go to coffee and we're going to have these amazing conversations. And then, you know, my friends who don't really care about having their personal philosophies picked apart. Well, let's go to dinner some other time. Totally. Let's spend time separately. Thank you for joining us on the show. The book comes out tomorrow in paperback disruptor. I'm assuming we're all books are sold. Yes. And what is our clean butt website so that we go to the right one? HelloTushy.com. Thank you for joining us and answering these fun questions. So happy to be here. Thank you.