 at the beginning. Episodes will prevail in the Earth. Welcome to Hope Today. I'm Anna Frye, and I'm here with Tom Hollis, and, ooh, Tom, we're gonna be talking about some things that are happening in the world today. No, I mean, it's gonna be so good. Denise Grace Gitsum is gonna be with us. She's written the book. Now, I don't want you to change the channel when you hear this first word. Politics for people who hate politics. How to engage without losing your friends or selling your soul. I love the subject. Listen, it's 2024. In case you don't know, what is it like four days to the Iowa caucuses or something like that? My wife's from Iowa, so we kinda know about that, the whole Iowa caucus thing, but it's like the first presidential thing. And all of a sudden, the battle lines are gonna be drawn at, you know what, maybe in your own family. I've even seen it in my own family and among some of my friends. How do you engage? Because we wanna engage. We wanna speak the truth in love. We want to share our faith and how it informs what we do, but we have people that wanna battle us about that, Anna. It's gonna be a great conversation. Denise has been involved in politics from every level. She's worked in the White House, but yet she also has come to many conclusions about how to share that with love. Yeah, right. And you know what I appreciate about having her is that she's writing to people who hate politics. So if you're somebody that is tempted to turn the channel because oh, they're talking about politics. And the subtitle says, if it's for people who hate it, how do we engage? So this is about the importance of still engaging in the conversation, even when it's hard, even when it's uncomfortable, even when there might be fear. And this truly is gonna have value for every person. Absolutely. You know, the program is called Hope Today. And there's not gonna be hope in politics. Don't put your hope in the political realm. Our hope is in Christ, our hope is in the Lord. And maybe you need prayer today. We have prayer partners standing by. It can pray with you about that hope and can bring some scriptural encouragement to you because we want to bring hope today in this program and that's only found in Christ. Well, as we enter 2024, one of the most critical and significant events taking place this year, as we've just said is the upcoming election. You're hearing all about it, right? There was a debate last night, I think. And while this year's election is as important as ever, the downside is that it can cause division. We've certainly seen that. Not just in our country, but even among friends and family. So how do we discuss politics in a loving way? Political commentator and author Denise Grace Gitsam has advice in her new book, Politics for People Who Hate Politics. How to engage without losing your friends or selling your soul. Denise, welcome to Hope Today. Good morning, Tom and Anna, how are you? Well, we're doing great. And you know, we haven't quite been affected yet by the political realm that we're gonna find, but it's coming, it's coming. It'll be in Pennsylvania in no time. So tell me about, I mean, you've done so many things, Denise, in the political realm, some of the things that so many of the people aspire to working in the White House and running for office and all these things. What, tell me about your life growing up. Tell me about your story and how you got involved. Sure, so my parents are immigrants, which gives me a very unique perspective, I think, on the blessing that it is to be an American. My mother escaped communist China. And when she came to this country, you know, I understood from a very young age that we weren't all, everyone in the world was born with the same privilege of playing a role in shaping the government they lived under. And so my dad actually came from Canada and he joined the U.S. Air Force to earn the privilege of becoming an American citizen. And so a lot of us, like me, who were born here with parents like that and hearing those kinds of stories, we have a different perspective on what our role ought to be. And as a Christian, what my role was being a good steward of the blessing it is to live in this country. And so I was actually on a mission trip in China in college and for the first time ever, I felt like my freedoms would be deprived, I'd be deprived of my freedoms rather. And I was actually sharing the Jesus film and I got caught and thrown in a detention room and interrogated. And it was the first time I ever felt like, wow, there's a real difference between living in America and the rights and freedoms I have to defend myself and to speak out and to be tried fairly versus living in a country where I didn't have those rights. And that's really part of what catalyzed my desire to make sure that we have those rights and freedoms forever. And so straight out of college, I went into politics, I didn't mean to, I mean, I had an intention that I wanted to do something to change the world, but I ended up in the heart of the Governor George W. Bush's campaign in Austin, Texas. Two recounts later, we ended up in the White House and the 9-11 happened, which really solidified my desire to serve our country forever. And so I've done it in many different ways from running for Congress, which I didn't win, but that experience of running really changes you to just playing a role in whatever I can, whether it's being a Republican lawyer out in the field, poll monitoring, making sure the laws are being upheld, or just supporting local candidates and working on campaigns. It's been a real roller coaster to watch our country engage in politics in new and exciting ways and new and distressing ways. So that's why I wrote this book. Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit, because again, you are really seeing this from the inside much more than most of us have been, but so many of us have engaged in those things and have loved to see our candidates achieve election and all that. But let me ask you about what you saw happening in your own spirit, because here you are, a Christian person, a loves God, and you even say in the beginning of the book that you loved hearing other people's side and would try to have good discussions. Then you got really inside politics and found out that humility isn't necessarily a virtue in the political realm. Can you just share a little bit about what was happening to you? Yeah, nor is it one that I have an abundance apparently, because the closer I got to the political fire, the more I had to be refined. And being in politics or engaging in politics, you get to kind of hide, in the way social media trolls can hide behind an anonymous screen or a handle. When you're actually the candidate that's on the platform and you realize the spotlights on you when I ran for Congress, this is what shifted from being anonymous campaign staffer who wanted to stay that way and was just a cog in the wheel in Washington to somebody who actually had a platform that people were interested in and wanted to talk about. The first thing I did when I stepped onto the stage to announce my candidacy in 2016 was I'm a Christian and I'm going to run on these principles, but I'm gonna do it in a manner that reflects my faith. And so my foundation for running when I spoke was I'm gonna run on kindness, civility and respect. And for some reason of all the things that I said that I thought were brilliant, the media only picked up on those three things. And I thought, why is this such news that we're suddenly engaging in a manner befitting of Christ? In my mind, that's how I thought of it. But I realized over the course of 2016 and since, but even before that, long before that, that there was a sickness in my own soul, that this was an aspiration that I had, which was to run in a manner befitting of Christ and that I had engaged in a manner that wasn't befitting of Christ, that wasn't worthy of his name in a lot of the things I had done in the name of politics. And I started seeing that in myself, but I also saw it in the people that I loved, Christians that love Jesus and serve people so well in so many small and big ways. And the inconsistency that I felt they brought to the table when they engaged in politics, but it all started with me. It started with that self-awareness and the ongoing awareness that I need Jesus to help me not only just check my tongue, but really to change my heart because he cares more about my heart and what I think about people I disagree with than necessarily the words that come out of my mouth. All of them have to be aligned as a believer, otherwise I'd blow my witness. But I really cared more about representing Jesus well when I ran for Congress than I did about winning. Denise, you talk about the importance of learning how to speak the truth and love. Can you unpack that? How do we do that? It is so difficult. I am an on-air commentator on national cable news all the time. And this is something that I'm challenged in because guess what? I'm kind of a jerk in my heart. I have a sinful spirit. I have a tendency, I'm a lawyer. I like to win. I like to go for the guttural. And when I hear something that just sounds ridiculous to me, it's very hard for me to not call that out for what I think it is. But the fact is Jesus had a lot of patience with people like me. Jesus had a lot of patience and grace and he honored people and he assumed good intentions of people because he saw who they really were and who God had called them out to be. And so he always pulled out the golden people. He never chastised them unless they spoke the truth without love. One of the things I've realized that I struggle with and I see a lot of fellow Christians struggle with is it's impossible to speak in love without truth. There's just no such thing as being loving without being truthful. But it's very easy for us in the name of truth to speak the truth without love. And that's one of the traps that I found myself following in often. And one of the traps that I saw a lot of my Christian friends falling into and it was because of their zealous love for the truth that they end up tossing love to the side because they were so emphatic about standing for something that God really approved of. The only problem is when we do that we stand outside the character of God because God is love. And that's what he calls us to first and foremost in our engagement with everybody, including our enemies. Let me ask you a little bit more about that. As Christians, and you mentioned this in the book that we're supposed to be ambassadors of Christ, ambassadors of heaven, we're citizens of heaven living our lives in this world. But how has that lived out though? Because you even make a distinction. You saw yourself with a friend of yours being divided between missionary Denise and candidate Denise. Can you kind of explain how you wrestled through that? I have an identity problem sometimes when I gauge in politics and it creeps up because it's not only an identity problem but it's an integrity issue. Sometimes I think of myself as more of a Republican or a conservative or whatever I feel like that day versus a believer in Christ, like a Christian. That is my first and foremost, my identity is in Christ. If that gets out of alignment and that doesn't become the primary thing I'm gonna look to other things in this world to define who I am. And when I look to other things in this world to define who I am, I look to the way that other people are acting and the way that they talk about these things because if I don't have my foundation solidly rooted in the truth of who God says I am then I need validation from other people to be okay. And when that happens, you see what happens in politics but really in every cultural sphere. You see people looking to do politics or business or fill in the blank as usual. And I can guarantee you that the way that the world engages in divisive spheres like politics is never gonna stand up to the, it's never going to align with the calling that God has put in our heart to do everything counter culturally, to love people that disagree with you, to love on those who can vehemently stand against you and still say, I love you because of what Christ did for you and what he did for me and not because of the position that you have. And you can say all of those things and still stand in full truth. Conformity and unity are not the same things but God does call us to unify especially within the body of Christ. And when our first and foremost identity is as an ambassador of heaven, of representing Jesus and letting our lives be a witness in whatever we do then we have a different perspective on who those people on the other side of the ILR. You know, you refer to politics as a blood sport and it's interesting, isn't it, that we're not satisfied unless we went a hundred to nothing in politics. It's like we never can say, well, the other candidate, well, they have a good opinion, a good position on this or something we can almost never. And I wanna ask you to define something that I think kind of plays into this, tribalism. What is that? And it seems like we're seeing it all over the place now that the tribalism is kind of putting us into these categories. Well, so tribalism or identity politics, there's sort of two sides the same coin. Tribalism is often attributed to those on the right although of course it affects everybody and identity politics is a term that's often used on the left and both of them represent finding your identity in something other than Jesus because whenever we look to other people to help shape what our perspectives ought to be an issue instead of going first and foremost to Jesus and asking him, Lord, what are your thoughts on this? What is your heart for this issue? Break my heart for the things that break yours. Help me to love the things that you love. That should be our first and foremost question but when we, so many of us, we just feel, again, speaking for myself because I'm the worst defender here but when I think about certain issues they get me so upset and then I look to the people around me whether it's in social media or my social circles and I kind of pick up and feed off of their energy and I wanna jump in with them so that I feel like I have something in common with, you know, we're fighting for the same thing and oftentimes in that tribalism where we look for people that we agree with we end up losing sight of the person that we're supposed to be following like who's the leader of our tribe? As Christians, our leader ought to be Jesus and so rather than looking to each other for how we ought to treat one another or what we should think about other people or even ourselves, we tend to just take way too many of our cues from the people around us rather than going straight to God and asking him for his perspective on us, our enemies and the issues. Denise, I wanna talk about this wording on the subtitle that says how to engage without losing your friends. So I'm just thinking of, you know, folks at home who might be watching where they feel like they have spoken the truth in love and that friend or that family member has decided that because of that political difference that they can't be in close relationship anymore. Can you just speak a word of encouragement into that person who feels that loss and also the encouragement of how to continue on in speaking the truth regardless of other people's choices? Well, nothing is more heartbreaking than losing relationship over something that's temporal, right? Our parties and the things that we stand for and even our own political perspectives evolve over time. I am not the same conservative or I don't even have the same beliefs that I had when I was 22 getting into politics, not so much on the foundational things. It's just that as we learn more and we experience more, our perspectives become more nuanced just as when we read scripture, we understand things in a deeper way and we evolve in our beliefs, not on the core foundational things that are black and white truth, but on the ways that we perceive them and each other and ourselves in light of the truth. And so I would say the first thing I would just say is whenever we have so many and we're only responsible for ourselves. I think that's the first thing that's really important to establish is that, you know, everyone has Uncle Billy or, you know, that one nephew who's gonna show up, you know, at Christmas dinner or at Easter or at your birthday and you're gonna hold your breath and say, please Lord, give me patience. And oftentimes that's been me in the past. So I understand what it is to be in that position. But when we recognize that it's not our job to change Uncle Billy's mind. It's not our job to change that nephew's mind or that niece's mind, but it is our job to be responsible for the truth that God has given us to speak in conviction. There's obviously a lot of wisdom and discernment that has to go into when you bring things up and how you engage in people. But the Holy Spirit is so good to give us that guidance when we pray about it. And when our intentions are pure even if we mangle the conversation God can still work through it. So I think one of the most important things to do when you are in a situation where you're feeling division which by the way is Satan's favorite tool to use against families. It's his favorite way to divide communities and churches. Division is his just recognizing it's an Ephesians 612 thing is we are not waging against flesh and blood but against principalities. Recognizing that we're not coming against somebody we're coming against the spirit. And when we have that proper perspective we can say Lord, I need your help not reacting in the flesh. I need your help seeing them for who they are. And Lord, help me to recognize that my top priority in this conversation in this interaction is to love them well. Part of that is speaking the truth but part of them is actually loving. And love is not truth. If that were the case we wouldn't be told to speak the truth in love. Love is clearly defined in scripture. If you've never even cracked open the Bible you know and you've just been to a wedding you know love is patient, love is kind and all the other things that are said. And so we all know how to speak lovingly. It's a choice as to whether or not we decide to and if we can establish in our hearts before we go into a conversation like that that the outcome is not up to us but that how we show up in that conversation as love is then we can establish from the outset that our motive is to preserve the relationship regardless of where the conversation goes on its merits. So I have to ask you today, how's it working? I mean, how is it? I mean, this all sounds really good, okay? And I love it. And there's so much in your book and I wanna get to some of that especially the second half of the book it's like a discipleship program it's just about living the life of Christ in many ways not just in the political realm but how is this really working out for you? Cause you're strong in your opinions and you should be. I mean, that's what you wanna you have truth that you wanna stand for. How's that working out in relationships? Of course you would put me on the spot when you tell me. That is, you know, all that really matters is how is this working for you? You know, it's working for me as well that is anyone who aspires to live in perfection which is impossible, right? We all fall short of the glory of God. And so I screw up a lot. I mean, I have a lot of opportunities to screw up and I have a lot of opportunities to screw up publicly. And I think God is not so much concerned about, you know, when I'm on TV and I'm always, you know, the Republican commentator surrounded by Democrats and it's the media. And so even if I'm on Fox News, I often find myself, you know, in a conservative outlet I often find myself having a different perspective on things not because I'm trying to be contrarian but because I always ask the Lord what do you wanna say in this situation? Let me be your mouthpiece. So I don't fall in line with Democratic or Republican talking points because I don't think that's bringing something new to the table and my perspective on things is different because I have the mind of Christ. And so when I get in a position where I think, gosh, this person is evil. There's oftentimes these thoughts will come into my mind where I just think, how can you say something like that? Especially when it comes to issues like Israel and Hamas to me are so black and white and I feel so strongly about them that I get really hot. And what I always have to ask the Lord sort of especially in the commercial breaks but even before I go into a segment like that where I know I'm gonna be talking about something that matters deeply to me, I have to ask God to put extra guardrails around my heart and to really help me stay in the character that he wants me to stay in and to make honorable assumptions about the people that I'm talking to because one thing that never fails to bring people together is being curious about why they believe the things that they do. And so if it's in a commercial break and I have a moment to talk to the person I just got an argument with on TV, you can turn to them and say, hey, I didn't mean to say that or come across that way but can you tell me why it is that you think that? And once you kind of get to that point, you establish that there's a sense of respect. You wanna understand them better and I think all of us could do better at that. It doesn't matter if you think you have a lock on the whole truth, which by the way, you don't, neither do I. If we go in with humility and ask the Lord there's something in what this person's saying that seems so obnoxious and so wrong that you still wanna teach me through. There's something I'm not seeing is there a perspective that I'm missing that represents your heart that I'm just not seeing because I have blind spots. Help me to see that Lord because I really wanna understand, even if I don't agree. And again, I'm not great at it. I'm a lawyer, I like to fight and I'm a political and I like to win. And what I've found is that winning is very defined and very differently because really what's your outcome if you have a different outcome which is to show love and to speak the truth and love and to let people see the love of God through your life even when you're in politics, especially when you're in politics, then the outcome, the win is different because if they feel loved by you, even if you feel like you maybe didn't stand as strongly as you needed to or maybe you did stand strongly and it's taking time to percolate in their minds then you're gonna have, you're gonna please God and that's the ultimate win. But I also find that people are more receptive to your influence when you speak the truth and love. So you actually do have a better chance of winning on the issue as well which is very important in politics. Well, I really appreciate that. I love that you brought up the respect words that we need to have that respect for others even in the opposition. But let me just ask you, what are you hoping as people would read your book and hope to get something out of there that would help them in this time, especially with family, with friends, with people they're close to, what are you hoping they take away from the book? I really hope that people will recognize that this is engaging in politics is really not optional as believers. We have to be good stewards of the blessings God's given us. And one way that we, I think about stewardship is what are we doing with the power and the authority and the ability to engage in the political realm that he's given us by living in this country. But the other thing I really pray is that when Christians come out of this cycle, that they're gonna have to come back to a country that they've both helped shape hopefully by voting and engaging civically, but that they're gonna have these relationships that are gonna transcend election seasons. Your neighbor's still gonna be your neighbor and it's gonna be a more enduring relationship than really who's on the ballot and what you're talking about even in two or four years. And so my heart is that will come out as a body of Christ representing God's love and his truth in equal measures. And now everything that we do is consistent with the character and love of God. If everyone forgets what we've argued about in a year or three months or in 10 years, none of that's gonna all of that fades away but love endures forever. And so my heart for the church and for myself first and foremost is that I always show up in love in politics while speaking the truth. Amen. Speaking of the truth in love, politics for people who hate politics. I highly recommend this book. Thank you so much, Denise, for being with us. Denise, get some, appreciate you so much. Appreciate what you're doing. Thank you for being with us. Thank you so much for having me on today. Well, there's a lot there. My goodness. I know. I so appreciate her heart of humility. It goes before her. And the conversation about the relational side of it, while it's important to speak the truth in love, that is honoring the person that we're speaking to. No, it's a real challenge. I mean, it's a challenge. You wanna be a kind of a combination, Mr. Rogers and General Patton at the same time where you wanna take ground and you wanna make your point and you wanna, and there's a lot of good in that. There's nothing wrong with being dedicated as you can clearly see that Denise is dedicated to the things she believes in. That's important and that's something that you should be. But can you be that loving person, that accepting person, the Mr. Rogers side, right? The accepting person that sees the respect you should have for that other person, even if they're not respecting you, how can you respond in an opposite spirit? How can you respond in maybe not that political spirit that you can respond in the spirit of Christ, in the spirit of love? Cause that's what God is always gonna call you to, no matter what arena, whether it's political or family or your work or your church or wherever, he's gonna call you to that. And I love so much that that is what Denise is calling us to in her book. Right, yeah, and the other way that we can respond in love is with the help of the Holy Spirit. He is inside of us to allow us to operate with self control, with patience, with gentleness and with love. Remember that you have that source of power within you. And so when you find yourself in those situations where you feel triggered because somebody spoke something against what you're so passionate about, remember, and this is preaching to myself to pause and take a breath and say, Jesus, Holy Spirit, help me, help me to respond in a way that honors the person in front of me because you love them and you have a plan for them, just like God has a plan for you. Have a great day. On tomorrow's Hope Today, understanding Bible prophecy through the time of the signs. Pastor and author Barry Stagner explores the events that will precede Christ's return as he breaks down what to expect during Earth's final days. Don't miss tomorrow's Hope Today. Cornerstone Television wishes to thank all our faithful viewers whose consistent prayers and financial support have made this program possible.