 The one question I had is, you've written extensively on nationalism and on nationalism in Croatia. And it seems like the times have caught up with you in a way. One of the themes in your work is how things don't change. So in Croatia and Bosnia and Serbia, these countries, things change in the 90s and ever since then we're stuck in a kind of time. They can't change because nationalism itself is the project which is like a prison. There is no way out. Ideologically it is so stupid and so empty and so simple and so obsessive that there is nothing behind that. Communism was far more open project because you could change it, you could discuss it, you could do this or that. I mean each of communist countries they had their own, in spite of the same ideology, but they had their own communist story. But nationalism is something like tooth pain, you know, you're just whining and whining and whining and this is it and this is it. Yeah, but you speak from your own experience and from Croatia, but it seems like the rest of the world used to think that nationalism was gone, it was a problem of the past almost and now we're faced with this situation. No, it is blooming. It is now it is. I think that my belief into humanity and to human creature is such strong that I'm always a sucker. So again with Trump I was 100% sure that he won't win, especially because I was watching those Alex Baldwin parodies. I simply could not believe, but I was wrong. I should simply think about the knowledge I already had and remember that knowledge. Why nationalism, why populism? It is so sweet. Why it is so sweet? When Yugoslavia fell apart and when nationalists won on all the sides, there was such a, I could feel that a relief among people. Because now I know that communism was demanding system. With all that ideology, you know, that you have to go to school. You have to educate yourself. I mean free education, girls to the school. I mean, it was, yes, it was liberating. Yes, it was emancipatory because, I mean, you could succeed only because if you were educated and educated, that educated knowledge was like a God. It was the holy thing. So you're saying socialism was a pain and nationalism is a kind of relaxation? Yes, it was demanding. And then self-management, God. People have to, I mean, learn that self-management. They have to, you know, they had tools, democratic tools, how to manage their factories, their firms, their whatever. So all of that was demanding. When nationalism came, you had to love Serbs and Slovenes and Macedonians. You had to learn all those languages. You had to travel this and that. All was demanding. Suddenly, nationalism came and you were respected for one thing only, being right blood type. Those possibilities which you can get with nationalism, it is all, it's not about only about attraction. It's about power. It's about possibility of money. It's about a huge possibility of change. I will tell you a story. Nobody believes me, but the story is truth. My publisher, Auguste Saretz, in Zagreb, he was the main editor. He became, thanks to Hadezze and his participation in political, he became a chef of police, creation police. So probably, I mean, you can't be that anywhere in the world except in those special situations, constellations. You have people who became something, somebody, only thanks to this constellation where people were awarded for loyalty. People became millionaires just for a little moment of loyalty towards nation, Tugman, people in power and so on and so forth. This is attractive. We live in unbelievably dangerous times. I mean, there is no arbitrage. We don't want arbitrage. Who is going to tell me what movie I'm going to like? At the end, we don't count. In fact, we all like one movie. You see, Dubravka, the same at our last conference, made the same analysis. He said what basically went wrong is that the values of the enlightenment were killed by amusements, by the commercial culture. But this is what we call democracy. People are free to choose what they want. And they have a strong preference of commercial culture amusements above the values of the enlightenment. So this is democracy. This is not communism. This is not a small group who is imposing X, Y, Z. So let's be happy with it. Because we still live in a democracy. Yeah, I think we should be happy. I don't have anything against it. How then to relate to your statement that we live in dangerous times? Dangerous times. Yes, dangerous times because of illiteracy. You think that you are choosing. In fact, you do not choose. You are chosen. This is what is for me such a discovery when people... It was never like that that people would agree. It was never like that before. And that appeared with this new time of consensus. It was never that people would agree that one writer, let's say, goes globally. And this is the best genius that we can get. Everybody agrees. Writers, fellow writers, critics, good critics, audience which didn't read any book, but that one and so on and so forth. These are those who is choosing that. Why suddenly everybody agrees that Elena Ferante is genius? I'm not going to put a footnote, but say now I think too that she is great. Because I don't want to do that for the sake of this... Why is that so? Ten years ago it could not happen. Yes, there were bestsellers, but it was not such a total agreement in between formerly high writers or thinkers or whatever and low or sub-literary and so on. What about the current situation in Croatia? Because you described that when you were young, you were definitely aware of what was good and what was evil. And then with this purification of the library, of the books, of the history, with this change of the perspectives, how is the current situation right now? How kids are aware of the situation of the past history and how do they look on it? I was observing through 25 years how those ideas, a concept, a system, how they penetrated into all the levels of life. They penetrated into school books, into kindergarten, into school books, into high school books, into universities. They penetrated into hospitals, into media, the radio, newspapers, into people. The biggest promoter of nationalism in Croatia was Catholic Church. From hardly maybe 5%, just old ladies before they went to church, in Croatia according to some statistics, there is 87% of declared Catholics. So church is everywhere and church is promoting and implanting, realizing all those ideas.